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View Full Version : Flanagan Takes another shot at Elvis Backers


Mosbonian
01-02-2001, 07:30 AM
Did anyone see the article by Jeffrey Flanagan taking a shot at Elvis backers(apologists)?

His article was a tongue in cheek piece but was a swipe at anyone who backed Elvis Grbac.

Good to see he still isn't into knowing more about the subjects he is prone to write about, it keeps up his tendencies.

mark
***********

DaWolf
01-02-2001, 10:06 AM
Flanagan is an idiot. His solution to use every pick on a running back or every pick on a quarterback so that Carl could finally find a solution is pathetic. Let's just let the D get worse than it is so that we can hopefully find more offense by using every pick in our draft. Brilliant, Flanny! Better to be an Elvis apologist than a dumbass...

Baby Lee
01-02-2001, 10:09 AM
What's the draft, six rounds? Sounds like a perfect way to assure at least five loser draft picks.

TEX
01-02-2001, 10:35 AM
I DO AGREE with ONE thing he said that IF the Chiefs plan on keeping Grbac - then they MUST GET A LEGIT FEATURE BACK to accompany him in the backfield. This is the Chiefs most glaring weakness (except for BAD coacjing) and it has been ever since Allen retired.

ck_IN
01-02-2001, 11:09 AM
I had visions of Denise pumping her fist in the air and shouting in glee as I read that piece of tripe. That's not a vision I really want to have over lunch! *L*

RB is a glaring need but I don't think it's our biggest one. Our run D is our biggest hole, imho. We play six games against Denver, Oakland, and Seattle. If our run D continues to decline we can write off half (at least) of those. We need Dline and LB help to stop the run. We need Oline help for our own run.
If a Bennett or Barlow drops into the 2nd rnd , I'd jump on them, otherwise I'd go for D.

Packfan
01-02-2001, 12:57 PM
What do you guys want? Wins or yardage/TD #s from your QB?? I will take the wins. And Grbac just hasnt gotten the job done. Grbac is at best, a good QB. But generally, "good" at this position doesnt get you super bowl trophies. Grbac has had more than a fair chance to prove himself. Statistically, he had his best year and no doubt wants to cash in on it. If Peterson gives him a penny more than a 5 million dollar bonus, he is high. If I were running the team, I would let Grbac go and start over. Again, this defense is in shambles, the running game is non-existant, and the coaching staff is arguable the worst in the NFL. Signing Grbac just pospones the inevitable: Rebuilding. With or without Grbac, the chiefs are a lot closer to the bottom than they are to the top, so why resign him??

Gaz
01-02-2001, 01:39 PM
Like it or not, Grbac is one of the better QBs in the NFL today. I was against anointing him as the starter and complained bitterly that he should have been benched after that disastrous San Diego game a year ago. I wailed that he would never develop into an NFL QB.

I was wrong.

Since that horrible game, Grbac has improved dramatically. He still throws into coverage more than I like, but I also must concede that he had to throw into coverage since we had no ground game. Our OC was predictable and the Committee was inept and STILL he racked up record-setting yardage.

It is misguided, IMO, to claim that "Grbac just hasn't gotten the job done." Is the same criticism leveled at Dillon in Cincinatti? Why didn't he "get the job done" and single-handedly carry the Bengals to the playoffs? Manning gets tons of praise as a QB, yet the Colts were eliminated in the first round of the playoffs. What a loser, huh? And how about that slacker Seau in San Deigo?

The flaw in this odd bit of logic is painfully clear.

Grbac carried the weight of the entire Offense on his shoulders and broke records doing it. Imagine that passing game with a legitimate ground attack.

Give me Grbac with a renegotiated contract, a new OC and a featured HB and I will be happy. All three of these things are quite doable.

xoxo~
gaz
slowly brought around to Grbac's corner.<BR>

MrBlond
01-02-2001, 01:49 PM
Packfan,
I disagree that the defense is in "shambles". Hicks, Clemons, Browning, Woods, Edwards, Mazlowski and Wesley are young solid defenders. Hasty needs to be replaced through FA. We have no time to hope that Bartee, Dennis, or Warfield will become a shutdown corner next year. They can man the 2nd recievers and play nickel but if Hasty is a cap casuality he must be replaced with a Sehorn or the like who can step in today. Chet is a waste of money but it is too expensive to cut him. A big loss that I think goes unnoticed was Tom Barndt. Tom was a run stuffing DT. Another can be found in the later rounds of the draft or as a cap casualty later. Scheme and coaching was far and away the problem with this defense. What do you think a young Bill Cowher, or Gunther Cunningham, or Marvin Lewis or Bill Belichek could do with this group? This defense needs improvment, no argument, but I think "shambles" may have been a little harsh.

MrBlond
01-02-2001, 01:57 PM
Gaz,

You make good points as always. But Elvis will not renegotiate that 10 mil away. He may extend the years and/or signing bonus but in the end those dollars are going to cost us. That kind of money and cap space should be reserved for the Elways, Marinos, and Youngs. (OK...Favre too) Elvis is the best QB available to us next year but will he be worth that kind of jack 2,3 or 4 years from now? Might we be better off trading for, or signing a 2nd tier QB like Ray Lucas, and moving up for a Vick, or Brees? IMO, we may be behind next year but ahead 2 years from now.

Baby Lee
01-02-2001, 02:00 PM
Mr. Blond - hate to do it, but I gotta back Packfan on the 'shambles' thing. Sure there were moments of beauty and there is always a reason for optimism [homer springs eternal]. But the effort and the results this year from the D was among the most embarassing things I have witnessed in a while.
Just watching this D give up offsides, underneath passes, chunks of running room, key third down after key third down [and the TDs, Oh! the TDs], I felt like Gore forced to watch an endless loop of Bush's most subliminable soundbites. the worst was the last Raiders game, where I got the sense that no O could ever produce enough to level out the sieve on D.

Dartgod
01-02-2001, 02:04 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Helvetica, verdana, ariel">quote:</font><HR>“…this defense is in shambles, the running game is non-existant, and the coaching staff is arguable the worst in the NFL.”<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

And yet you want to place most of the blame on Elvis' shoulders. The fact that he accomplished as much as he did when the rest of the team is in bad of shape as you admit here, I just don't get it. Wouldn't you like to see what he could do with a little competent help around him?

morphius
01-02-2001, 02:05 PM
MrBlond - I disagree about Grbac, he knows that it is the players around him that allows him to play at a certain level. The only problem is that he knows we need a Half Back to complete the O, and pick up some people to replace the 3 interior lineman if they all choose to leave. He has renogiated his contract many times already, so I really don't see him not doing it this time unless he see's that the orginization is heading in a direction that he has huge issues with.

[This message has been edited by morphius (edited 01-02-2001).]

morphius
01-02-2001, 02:08 PM
Dartgod - That is what I was thinking about Packfans comments, he completely contradicted his point in trying to get a shot at Carl.

Gaz
01-02-2001, 02:08 PM
Mr. Blond-

I believe that Grbac will renegotiate. If he does not, then I go after Lucas or some other 2nd tier QB [good description, BTW] and let him fight Collins for the starting job. I do not pursue Vick or Brees. I am not sold on either of them at this point in time [to be fair, I was sold on only one college QB in the last decade, and that was Manning].

As long as he renegotiates, I stick with Grbac. He is coming into his own at the position and I believe he could truly shine with a featured HB and an OC who understands that predictable is bad.

For the upcoming draft, we have serious needs at OLB, ORG, CB and HB. I do not think we can afford to spend a high pick on a QB when we have a good QB on the roster.

xoxo~
gaz
never expected to be a 'backer.<BR>

MrBlond
01-02-2001, 02:10 PM
Johnny,
I agree the result this year were horrific. But I think the scheme is the problem. (that and Chet) The D-line did crush QB's, Maz looks like an artist conception of a MLB, Woods and Wesley remind me of Smith and Atwater, Donnie is a tackle machine, Patton is a servicable veteran, I think I have used all the commas on my computer, so I'll start a new sentance. This defense has holes but the biggest hole is in its head...Schottenheimer.

Baby Lee
01-02-2001, 02:13 PM
And I should clarify that, although I agree [in principle] with Packfan's assessment of the D, I don't cross the bridge with him to punishing Grbac for it.
It just strikes me as inapposite that, with so much going wrong, we wouldn't find room to reward one of the few bright spots. Now realize that heaping compensation on him [ie, the BONUS] leaves the cupboard bare. But cutting him to start clean sends the message that the Chief's have NO loyalty whatsoever.

Gaz
01-02-2001, 02:13 PM
Mr. Blond-

Amen.

xoxo~
gaz
definitely NOT a Spineless Jellyfish Stoogebacker.<BR>

morphius
01-02-2001, 02:18 PM
MrBlond - I agree completely about the D. Kurt and the stop the pass first theory made our LB's less reactive and took them out of the play. Throw in the soft zone D which made everyone open and you have a D designed to fail and be left shaking their heads knowing that they were right were the coaches wanted him and had no chance to make a play. I think the redisgned D turned Donnie Edwards into an above average LB instead of the probowl playmaking LB he should have been.

DaWolf
01-02-2001, 02:19 PM
I disagree that we need to start over. There is no way in today's NFL that we don't have a chance next year with a few moves. I mean look at the teams in the playoffs today. Even Bill Walsh is saying he expects the Niners to be in the playoffs next year.

Elvis Grbac is not the problem here. The point is that if we have a running game and defense, we won't need the yardage/TD #s from our QB. We'll be a balanced team. We know that Grbac can get the job done in the passing game. It makes no sense to start over. What you do is continue to build on what we have, which are solid young offensive and defensive players. Get rid of the trash. Fill the holes, get a RB, a corner, some DL help, fix the biggest problem which is pathetic coaching, and this team is right back in it. I don't buy into this doom and gloom. The last 3 years have basically been a part of our "down" period that most teams go through. If Carl plays his cards right we'll be fine. But it remains to be seen if Carl will play his cards right...

MrBlond
01-02-2001, 02:21 PM
Gaz,

Elvis may indeed renegotiate, but only to lower his cap number this year. Next year his cap number goes up again and again and again. Eventually he must be paid for. The more times we reneg. Grbac the bigger the final price tag becomes. Peterson solved the problem of Grbacs cap size by putting in the 10 mil. bonus at the end. He created this problem to solve another and now he is going expand(there is a better word but I can't think of it) it by renegiotiating again. I would be all for this if we would be Superbowl contenders next year or even the year after but this contract hammer will fall right when we may be 1 or 2 players from the prize.

ct
01-02-2001, 02:25 PM
I pray as much as I can the rumors are true.
What better gift for a Cat fan than the Spineless Jellyfish Stooge to lead the Gayhawk D into the abyss!!!

ct
almost too good to be true, so it probably isn't

MrBlond
01-02-2001, 02:33 PM
I am not bashing Grbac. He had a great season. 4000 yards says it all. I think he will be better than the Qb who wins the SuperBowl this year. (whoever it may be) But I don't think he is the type of QB who deserves that much of a cap number. Renegiotiating Elvis may be the smart thing to do next year. I would love to see Elvis and the same offense here next year with a OC (or HC)like Saunders but if we can get out from under that contract (imo) it will help us out down the road. Who knows if we cut Grbac, he may find he is not worth that much on the open market and re-signs for less with KC. But to reneg. only balloons an already unwieldy contract.

Baby Lee
01-02-2001, 02:37 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Helvetica, verdana, ariel">quote:</font><HR> Who knows if we cut Grbac, he may find he is not worth that much on the open market and re-signs for less with KC. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
I gaurantee that plenty of teams would salivating over an available Grbac.

DaWolf
01-02-2001, 02:40 PM
The problem with letting him test the open market is that there are a lot of teams out there desperate for a legit QB. Think he wouldn't be licking his chops at a chance to QB in Tampa with Dunn, Keyshawn, and that great D? And if you let him go and start over, you take the chance of ending up like the San Diego QB situation, or getting someone like Shaun King who looks good at times but essentially proves that he can't move the ball consistently...

MrBlond
01-02-2001, 03:34 PM
Johnny,
Who are these teams that are going to salivate over Grbac? Baltimore probably but does he fit there cap structure? They have big name defense and will command big dollars. Seattle? probably yes but can they afford Grbac? They have a lot of dollars invested in FA's and 1st rounders from last year and this. Who else? most good teams have money and time invested in their own QB's. The others such as SD and Dallas are no more attractive and may be less attractive than KC. And don't forget that the competition will drive his price down. Brad Johnson may be as good as Grbac and cheaper. Both have a history of injury. Trent Green will be a hot commodity. Flutie may well be on the market. Ray Lucas may be expendable with NY. Jeff Blake was having a good season before his injury. He may be released w/ Brooks coming on. Chandler from Atlanta will be released. Jim Miller? Gus Ferrote? Tony Banks? Damon Huard? Add in Brees and Vick and Tuiassosopo(sp?) heck maybe even a suprise release like Mark Brunell and the QB market is flooded with not much demand from contenders. Who wants to give a 10 million dollar bonus to a QB who is 16-16 the last two years and HAS NEVER WON A PLAYOFF GAME!!! (thats a joke)

DaWolf
01-02-2001, 03:54 PM
To answer your question, a lot of teams. Look, here is Kerry Collins who quit on his teammates and had a drinking problem, and the Giants handed him a big contract because of ability. Look at the money Mitchell got based solely on ability and potentual. There are always teams. Brad Johnson and Trent Green aren't exactly masters of the postseason. Brunell was supposed to get his team to the promised land the last few years and has choked. And he's been injury prone. Heck, next to Brunell and Johnson, Elvis is Mr Iron Man.

Seattle, San Diego, Cincinnati, Baltimore, chicago, Tampa, Atlanta, and some other teams who might get rid of their QB's are going to be interested.

Johnson is coming off of a worse season than Grbac. Rob Johnson in Buffalo hasn't lived up to the promise and may be dumped, Grbac is more valuable than him. Green hasn't done a thing and if you want him you have togive up draft picks. Chandler is a walking injury. Miller, Banks and Huard are at best backups. Ferrote is lower on the ladder. You are telling me Grbac isn't more attractive than some of those guys?

MrBlond
01-02-2001, 04:09 PM
He may be more attractive then those other QB's but 10 mil? and some of those teams that can and will give him that kind of jack are not contenders. Grbac may not even consider playing for someone like Cincy. And if Elvis test the market and recieves an offer that high then you know you are not overpaying. Elvis holds the cards. If he wants to reneg. he can if he doesnt then there is nothing Peterson can do but cut him. Elvis says he wants to remain a Chief. If he is willing to reneg. a more friendly cap number then he wouldnt be opposed to letting us match an offer from another team. Even with a career year, IMO, he is not worth a 10 million dollar bonus. That is what we are talking about. Not a salary but a bonus and when he says he will reneg. a more cap friendly deal he doesnt mean waiving that bonus but extending it. The cap hit and the bonus will be due eventually. The day will come to pay the piper. SF and Denver eventually paid for renegiotiating Young and Elway but at least they got a Superbowl parade.

DaWolf
01-02-2001, 04:18 PM
Grbac if he does sign with us or any team will sign a contract that is cap friendly the first few years. His agent and Carl have already said that. Now sure you will eventually have to take a hit down the road, but you would have to do that anytime you sign a good QB to a contract. You let him get on the market and he will recieve a lot bigger offer than what Carl will be willing to pay I'll wager, because a lot of those teams have way more cap space to play with...