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View Full Version : The big difference between a Herm team and a Vermeil team is becoming obvious.


JimNasium
10-01-2006, 04:18 PM
We went into Denver prepared. At times during the Vermeil era it seemed like we went in there with the loss being a foregone conclusion. At other times during the Vermeil era went into games against an inferior team like today appearing unprepared and unmotivated. That doesn't seem to be the case so far this year. If they can keep working the kinks out of the offense this might end up being a fun season to watch.

CupidStunt
10-01-2006, 04:26 PM
I'd like a beer with those similar to me who maintain a similar attitude at all times.

People were calling for his head after week one (even though it wasn't his fault), shaking their heads after week two, and now they're ready to give him head.

All along, I've been so-so on Herm. Not a pro-Edwards guy, but am certainly not against him. He can coach defense, and he's better than Vermeil which is the point I've made time and time again.

Not saying that this applies to you, btw.

One other thing he deserves a lot of credit for is getting the team to play in the second half no matter the situation (slim lead in Denver, large lead today). Both halfs were very, very composed and put us in a position to win.

tk13
10-01-2006, 04:34 PM
I think generally we played pretty well against bad teams at home under Vermeil. We'd just get squashed against good teams on the road.

I think we'll be okay. I'm not sure if we're a playoff team or not, but we're playing pretty good defense, and I think Herm knows defense. The way the AFC looks right now, if we can get to 2-2 next week and just keep playing good D, and especially winning the turnover battle, we'll give ourselves a chance.

JimNasium
10-01-2006, 04:36 PM
I think generally we played pretty well against bad teams at home under Vermeil. We'd just get squashed against good teams on the road.

I think we'll be okay. I'm not sure if we're a playoff team or not, but we're playing pretty good defense, and I think Herm knows defense. The way the AFC looks right now, if we can get to 2-2 next week and just keep playing good D, and especially winning the turnover battle, we'll give ourselves a chance.
Perhaps I'm wrong but it seems like I can recall numerous occassions when teams came into Arrowhead that we should have destroyed but didn't under Dick. Maybe those were road games. I am getting old afterall.

Cochise
10-01-2006, 04:36 PM
I don't think we were ever very good on the road, even in the Marty days.

It's hard to win in the NFL on the road. I think that a team like the Chiefs suffers a little more than others because of that, since the team goes from a big advantage at home to a disadvantage on the road. The contrast is greater, mentally.

ChiefsCountry
10-01-2006, 04:37 PM
We are more discpilined team thats for sure.

|Zach|
10-01-2006, 04:38 PM
I am getting old afterall.
FATHER NASIUM ITS TIME FOR YOUR PILLS.

Chief Henry
10-01-2006, 04:40 PM
We are more discpilined team thats for sure.



Thats for sure. How many penatlities did we have ? Three maybe.
I like todays game plan.

|Zach|
10-01-2006, 04:40 PM
All I know is I really really hated how DV would go on and on and on about how hard it is to play well in Denver. Its like he just gave up before the game even started. What a ****ing self fulfilling prophecy he made.

Otter
10-01-2006, 04:52 PM
Vermiel was a little too grandfatherly when dealing the players. He seemed more concerned in having a good relationship with the individual as opposed to putting the best players on the field.

Although the previous indifference to the matter hasn’t faired much better I can’t imagine being well liked is a big prerequisite for winning championships. Respect and fear is what I remember motivating me in team situations.

Seems like a great guy, but I wouldn’t want him making personal decisions. Where the hell was the “general manager” when some of these decisions needed to be made?

(giving that dead horse one more kick) Peterson needs to go

CupidStunt
10-01-2006, 05:14 PM
AFC East - New England... the Jets and Bills might be improved but I see neither team breaking .500. Miami stinks.

AFC South - Indianapolis and Jacksonville... a division winner we don't have to worry about but a legitimate wildcard contender.

AFC North - Pittsburgh, Baltimore and Cincinnati... a division winner we don't have to worry about but also two wildcard contenders that, at this point, appear to be 10+ win teams.

And then there's the AFC West, with another division winner (say, for example, San Diego) plus a wildcard contender.

It's going to be tough.

(Not necessarily in order...)

1. IND
2. CIN
3. NE
4. SD
5. JAX
6. PIT
7. DEN

We have to keep getting better.

Count Zarth
10-01-2006, 05:15 PM
One thing is for sure. We are a bunch of tough bastards. We hit people.

MichaelH
10-01-2006, 06:23 PM
AFC East - New England... the Jets and Bills might be improved but I see neither team breaking .500. Miami stinks.

AFC South - Indianapolis and Jacksonville... a division winner we don't have to worry about but a legitimate wildcard contender.

AFC North - Pittsburgh, Baltimore and Cincinnati... a division winner we don't have to worry about but also two wildcard contenders that, at this point, appear to be 10+ win teams.

And then there's the AFC West, with another division winner (say, for example, San Diego) plus a wildcard contender.

It's going to be tough.

(Not necessarily in order...)

1. IND
2. CIN
3. NE
4. SD
5. JAX
6. PIT
7. DEN

We have to keep getting better.

1. IND-good team but QB can't play outside in January-needs reliable running game
2. CIN- good QB, team full of thugs- will be the next Faiders
3. NE- not too impressive so far- GQ Brady can't do it all
4. SD- good D but Marty as head coach
5. JAX- as the Skins just proved, they're not super on D
6. PIT- QB WAY, Way overrated, good D and coaching but lack their usual grind it out running game- (the Bus)
7. DEN- They're the donkeys, do I need to elaborate? they will win games they should but also choke as usual with Jake the fake.

So the way I see it, the AFC is wide open. The Chiefs need to take one game at a time and punch whoever they're playing in the mouth.

noa
10-01-2006, 06:28 PM
I think the most vulnerable of the playoff contenders are Pittsburgh, San Diego, and Denver.

Halfcan
10-01-2006, 06:30 PM
DV would have let up on them and they would have scored. I am glad we shut them out!!

milkman
10-01-2006, 06:32 PM
I think we're getting way ahead of ourselves here (by we're, I mean you).

We've won one game.

An outstanding performance to be sure, but I think we need to see what happens in the next couple of games before we start thinking playoffs.

MichaelH
10-01-2006, 06:38 PM
I think we're getting way ahead of ourselves here (by we're, I mean you).

We've won one game.

An outstanding performance to be sure, but I think we need to see what happens in the next couple of games before we start thinking playoffs.


I agree. Let's not wet ourselves yet. I listened to part of Herm's post game press conference. He said that while the team played well, they have a ways to go. He actually said the defense made some good plays but could have done better elsewhere. We never would have heard DV say that. I think we're headed in the right direction.

Easy 6
10-01-2006, 06:40 PM
I think we're getting way ahead of ourselves here (by we're, I mean you).

We've won one game.

An outstanding performance to be sure, but I think we need to see what happens in the next couple of games before we start thinking playoffs.
That is a very good "voice of reason" approach, nonetheless its VERY hard not to feel a lil' chippy after this utter rout today.

milkman
10-01-2006, 06:46 PM
I agree. Let's not wet ourselves yet. I listened to part of Herm's post game press conference. He said that while the team played well, they have a ways to go. He actually said the defense made some good plays but could have done better elsewhere. We never would have heard DV say that. I think we're headed in the right direction.

I would agree.
It does appear we are headed in the right direction.

Coach
10-01-2006, 06:46 PM
Let's see how good we are in back-to-back road games against Arizona and Steelers.

milkman
10-01-2006, 06:47 PM
That is a very good "voice of reason" approach, nonetheless its VERY hard not to feel a lil' chippy after this utter rout today.

No doubt.
I was giddy with team's performance.

Count Zarth
10-01-2006, 06:48 PM
Let's see how good we are in back-to-back road games against Arizona and Steelers.

With this defense, we can take the show on the road.

Halfcan
10-01-2006, 06:49 PM
No doubt.
I was giddy with team's performance.

I told my friend right before the Dante punt return-man he needs one Right here-its been a while for him-plus it would top off this whole game.

Boom-he took it to the house. What a great game!

ChiefsFanatic
10-01-2006, 06:52 PM
We went into Denver prepared. At times during the Vermeil era it seemed like we went in there with the loss being a foregone conclusion. At other times during the Vermeil era went into games against an inferior team like today appearing unprepared and unmotivated. That doesn't seem to be the case so far this year. If they can keep working the kinks out of the offense this might end up being a fun season to watch.

Today's performance is depressing, in a way. Had we come out as fired up against the Bengals as we did today, the outcome might have been different. That day we were flat, and seemed lifeless, IMHO.

Also, if we would have allowed Huard to throw the ball downfield against Denver, the outcome might have been different. I have said this before, and today just made me feel even stronger, that if you have a backup that can't run all your plays, then he shouldn't be on your team.

So, with guarded optimism, I look forward to next week.

One more thing. I keep waiting for our new defense to give up the big play, but it really hasn't happened yet. Is anyone else waiting for the shoe to drop?

Skip Towne
10-01-2006, 06:54 PM
Does anyone know what Marty's road record was? I don't remember us being a bad road team then. I remember that we beat the Fade like 9 straight times at their place.

Coach
10-01-2006, 06:55 PM
With this defense, we can take the show on the road.

I have no doubt. Let's hope the offense bring their act as well.

milkman
10-01-2006, 06:55 PM
Today's performance is depressing, in a way. Had we come out as fired up against the Bengals as we did today, the outcome might have been different. That day we were flat, and seemed lifeless, IMHO.

Also, if we would have allowed Huard to throw the ball downfield against Denver, the outcome might have been different. I have said this before, and today just made me feel even stronger, that if you have a backup that can't run all your plays, then he shouldn't be on your team.

So, with guarded optimism, I look forward to next week.

One more thing. I keep waiting for our new defense to give up the big play, but it really hasn't happened yet. Is anyone else waiting for the shoe to drop?

Every defense gives up big plays.

The trick is to minimize the number of times that happens.

Cochise
10-01-2006, 06:57 PM
DV would have let up on them and they would have scored. I am glad we shut them out!!

That's funny because Edwards was being critical before week 1 about how Vermeil used to run it up and he thought that was bush league.

dirk digler
10-01-2006, 06:57 PM
I think we're getting way ahead of ourselves here (by we're, I mean you).

We've won one game.

An outstanding performance to be sure, but I think we need to see what happens in the next couple of games before we start thinking playoffs.

Yep people need to chill. 1 good game against the horrible 49ers doesn't make a playoff contender.

Easy 6
10-01-2006, 06:58 PM
Today's performance is depressing, in a way. Had we come out as fired up against the Bengals as we did today, the outcome might have been different. That day we were flat, and seemed lifeless, IMHO.

Also, if we would have allowed Huard to throw the ball downfield against Denver, the outcome might have been different. I have said this before, and today just made me feel even stronger, that if you have a backup that can't run all your plays, then he shouldn't be on your team.

So, with guarded optimism, I look forward to next week.

One more thing. I keep waiting for our new defense to give up the big play, but it really hasn't happened yet. Is anyone else waiting for the shoe to drop?
I love to look back to dude but was it really wrong to put a short leash on Damon in his first full game in close to a decade on the road at dinvr. Thats how i feel anyway :shrug:

|Zach|
10-01-2006, 06:59 PM
Does anyone know what Marty's road record was? I don't remember us being a bad road team then. I remember that we beat the Fade like 9 straight times at their place.
We had a nice little run at Denver for a little while.

ChiefsFanatic
10-01-2006, 07:00 PM
That's funny because Edwards was being critical before week 1 about how Vermeil used to run it up and he thought that was bush league.

Yeah, but in his defense, Edwards is stupid.

Skip Towne
10-01-2006, 07:01 PM
We had a nice little run at Denver for a little while.
Yes, and I don't remember any extended losing streaks. I'd like to see his home record and the away record. I'd guess they are pretty close.

Logical
10-01-2006, 07:01 PM
We went into Denver prepared. At times during the Vermeil era it seemed like we went in there with the loss being a foregone conclusion. At other times during the Vermeil era went into games against an inferior team like today appearing unprepared and unmotivated. That doesn't seem to be the case so far this year. If they can keep working the kinks out of the offense this might end up being a fun season to watch.Agreed:thumb:

milkman
10-01-2006, 07:04 PM
Yes, and I don't remember any extended losing streaks. I'd like to see his home record and the away record. I'd guess they are pretty close.

I would not be at all surprised to see Marty's road record at, or near, .500.

the Talking Can
10-01-2006, 07:11 PM
Denver still hurts, we were the better team...but Herm/Solari were afraid to pull the trigger in crunch time...a painful lesson learned

Herm seems, so far, to be much better about holding players accountable hence Hicks and Sims getting demoted...DV had lost the will to be ruthless...he was a kind old man who didn't want to hurt people's feelings (except LJ and Morton), which is great unless your job title is "NFL Head Coach"

DV wasted one of the most aggressive and efficient offenses the league has seen...he wasted it for bums like Greg Robinson/Hicks/Sims/Warfield etc...simply mind boggling

Herm needs to get over his "offense is exotic" schtick and let Solari and Green (hopefully) run the show...today was great, except for our predictable run-up-butt play on every first down...but we scored so who can complain really

I trust Herm on D, I will be watching with a wary eye how he rebuilds our offense in the coming years (new QB, new OL, new WRs...)

anyways, we'll find out if we're for real against the Steelers...no faking it there...

Cochise
10-01-2006, 07:27 PM
Yes, and I don't remember any extended losing streaks. I'd like to see his home record and the away record. I'd guess they are pretty close.

year, road record, overall record

Marty
1989 3-4-1, 8-7-1
1990 5-3, 11-5
1991 4-4, 10-6
1992 3-5, 10-6
1993 4-4, 11-5
1994 4-4, 9-7
1995 5-3, 13-3
1996 4-4, 9-7
1997 5-3, 13-3
1998 3-6, 7-9

And if my math is correct:

Road: 40-40-1 .500
Home: 61-18 .772

So we didn't really suck on the road, but we weren't near what we were at home.

Just for fun, if you take out the Raiders (7-3 on the road against them) he was 33-37-1 on the road, .471

Logical
10-01-2006, 07:29 PM
1. IND-good team but QB can't play outside in January-needs reliable running game
...

WTF over, he played dead nuts against the Chiefs so this outside in January certainly is not true.

Brock
10-01-2006, 07:31 PM
WTF over, he played dead nuts against the Chiefs so this outside in January certainly is not true.

It helps if you put a defense on the field.

milkman
10-01-2006, 07:32 PM
WTF over, he played dead nuts against the Chiefs so this outside in January certainly is not true.

So he can play catch in January.

When he has to play football in January against a defense, not so much.

Brock
10-01-2006, 07:35 PM
We had a nice little run at Denver for a little while.

He won there twice.

Skip Towne
10-01-2006, 07:36 PM
year, road record, overall record

Marty
1989 3-4-1, 8-7-1
1990 5-3, 11-5
1991 4-4, 10-6
1992 3-5, 10-6
1993 4-4, 11-5
1994 4-4, 9-7
1995 5-3, 13-3
1996 4-4, 9-7
1997 5-3, 13-3
1998 3-6, 7-9

And if my math is correct:

Road: 40-40-1 .500
Home: 61-18 .772

So we didn't really suck on the road, but we weren't near what we were at home.

Just for fun, if you take out the Raiders (7-3 on the road against them) he was 33-37-1 on the road, .471
Interesting, Thanks.

keg in kc
10-01-2006, 07:38 PM
It's different watching this team. I never thought the offense was dead (or really changed), just thought it was a matter of time until the new linemen start to click, Huard got his feet under him and Solari got comfortable calling plays.

When I'm sitting through a game now, I don't have the "how are we going to lose this?" feeling that I had throughout the entire Vermeil era. Because the big differece between the Chiefs in 2006 and the Chiefs in 2001-2005 doesn't have anything to do with offensive or defensive systems, it has to do with attitude. This team is violent. This team is aggressive. That's why we'll perform better on the road. It's not about finesse, highlight reel plays and offensive statistics, it's about a team concept and taking it to the opponent. We punch you in the mouth now, instead of trying to dance like a butterfly and sting like a bee. But we still have the ability to do that if we want.

The team is developing heart, and the defense is developing swagger.

Easy 6
10-01-2006, 07:40 PM
And so it is written...... :clap: :clap: :clap:

Skip Towne
10-01-2006, 07:41 PM
year, road record, overall record

Marty
1989 3-4-1, 8-7-1
1990 5-3, 11-5
1991 4-4, 10-6
1992 3-5, 10-6
1993 4-4, 11-5
1994 4-4, 9-7
1995 5-3, 13-3
1996 4-4, 9-7
1997 5-3, 13-3
1998 3-6, 7-9

And if my math is correct:

Road: 40-40-1 .500
Home: 61-18 .772

So we didn't really suck on the road, but we weren't near what we were at home.

Just for fun, if you take out the Raiders (7-3 on the road against them) he was 33-37-1 on the road, .471
Why would you take out the Raiders road record?

keg in kc
10-01-2006, 07:43 PM
That record was exactly what Martyocre always preached. Win out at home, go .500 on the road.

And then choke in the playoffs.

Skip Towne
10-01-2006, 07:49 PM
It's different watching this team. I never thought the offense was dead (or really changed), just thought it was a matter of time until the new linemen start to click, Huard got his feet under him and Solari got comfortable calling plays.

When I'm sitting through a game now, I don't have the "how are we going to lose this?" feeling that I had throughout the entire Vermeil era. Because the big differece between the Chiefs in 2006 and the Chiefs in 2001-2005 doesn't have anything to do with offensive or defensive systems, it has to do with attitude. This team is violent. This team is aggressive. That's why we'll perform better on the road. It's not about finesse, highlight reel plays and offensive statistics, it's about a team concept and taking it to the opponent. We punch you in the mouth now, instead of trying to dance like a butterfly and sting like a bee. But we still have the ability to do that if we want.

The team is developing heart, and the defense is developing swagger.
That's "Float like a butterfly........... but I agree. DV was really super as a person but was a soft coach. He wouldn't cut somebody he liked. That's great for a grandfather but for a NFL head coach.......not so much.

keg in kc
10-01-2006, 07:51 PM
I have no idea why I typed "dance".

Time for bed I guess. *shakes head at himself*

runnercyclist
10-01-2006, 07:54 PM
F-ing shutout baby!

KCChiefsFan88
10-01-2006, 08:09 PM
At other times during the Vermeil era went into games against an inferior team like today appearing unprepared and unmotivated. That doesn't seem to be the case so far this year.

And you base that on what? The Chiefs have played all of 3 games under Herm and 2 of them were against teams that certainly weren't "inferior" to the Chiefs.

Under Vermeil the Chiefs took care of business against crappy teams at Arrowhead.

kcirnamffoh
10-01-2006, 08:54 PM
I think the Chiefs should warm up with pink footballs all the time.

Count Zarth
10-01-2006, 10:14 PM
Under Vermeil the Chiefs took care of business against crappy teams at Arrowhead.

Like the Texans?

luv
10-01-2006, 10:16 PM
At other times during the Vermeil era went into games against an inferior team like today appearing unprepared and unmotivated. That doesn't seem to be the case so far this year.

And you base that on what? The Chiefs have played all of 3 games under Herm and 2 of them were against teams that certainly weren't "inferior" to the Chiefs.

Under Vermeil the Chiefs took care of business against crappy teams at Arrowhead.
Isn't that what happened today?

raptorrage
10-01-2006, 10:17 PM
1 Thing i'm glad i'm not seeing is stupid penalties especially on key drives and on D usually that would always be the case in the past. When Gun would decide go into attack mode the flags would fly but I think this is something that edwards is known for trying not to make mistakes an end up one of least penaltalized teams

tk13
10-01-2006, 10:24 PM
Like the Texans?
I was thinking more like against the Cardinals, Rams, Lions, Bears, Niners, we beat the crap out of the Falcons. We've had a couple blips but for the most part, we've traditionally put some beat downs on NFC teams at Arrowhead.

tk13
10-01-2006, 10:35 PM
Over the last 5 seasons, we are 7-2 against NFC teams at Arrowhead. We've outscored our opponents 347-126, averaged almost 39 points per game, and the average margin of victory in the wins is 30 points.

Count Zarth
10-01-2006, 10:39 PM
He said Vermeil always beat patsies at Arrowhead. That's not true. That Texans game was brutal.

CupidStunt
10-02-2006, 01:51 AM
Anyone want to bet against the idea that we absolutely kill Oakland?

Vermeil could never get us a dominant win against them, and they stunk the last 3 years.

I see us tripling them in points scored:points allowed ration this year in head-to-head matchups. Something like 60:20.

'Hamas' Jenkins
10-02-2006, 04:43 AM
He said Vermeil always beat patsies at Arrowhead. That's not true. That Texans game was brutal.

That was the one year they actually weren't complete patsies, but nevertheless you are arguing one game over Vermeil's tenure. I'm sure there were others, but don't split hairs just for the sake of doing it. We beat the piss out of a lot of bad teams at Arrowhead during Vermeil's tenure.

Skip Towne
10-02-2006, 06:42 AM
I think the Chiefs should warm up with pink footballs all the time.
I missed the game. What was that all about?