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View Full Version : Why Would Anyone Want Vermeil?!


gonzo88
01-04-2001, 10:37 AM
Up until the last two years, this guy has been a total loser. He gets lucky one year and all the sudden he is a god. You guys better be carefull what you wish for.

redhed
01-04-2001, 10:38 AM
He had some good years w/ Philly long before he was w/ the Rams.

gonzo88
01-04-2001, 10:39 AM
I say screw vermeil! Keep Gun AND our newly acquired draft picks!!!

LD for KC
01-04-2001, 10:39 AM
We're not all making this wish!

LD for KC

Brock
01-04-2001, 10:40 AM
Yeah right. He's been to the Super Bowl with both teams he's coached.

Red and Gold Mania
01-04-2001, 10:41 AM
One thing is for sure:

1. Az Hakim
2. Torry Holt
3. Faulk
4. Bruce
5. Proehl
6. Warner

He DID have a lot of talent and speed in Saint Loius.


[This message has been edited by Red and Gold Mania (edited 01-04-2001).]

DaWolf
01-04-2001, 10:41 AM
The Lambs were horrible for over a decade and no coach could turn them around. Then they win a Super Bowl. 'Nuff said...

gonzo88
01-04-2001, 10:42 AM
BUT, how many years did he totaly miss the playoffs? You guys can't even go two years without the playoffs. Could you go 5,6, or 7 without any playoff appearance before finaly winning a super bowl?

58Forever
01-04-2001, 10:42 AM
Vermeil may not have any success here, but he is a Head Coach...Gun is not...personally, I believe he would have a great impact on this team...even if he doesn't personally turn us around, the legacy he will put in place will keep us successful for a long time...and he is a player's coach...

Chiefnj
01-04-2001, 10:42 AM
Gonzo,

Please list your reasons why we should keep Gunther.

Brock
01-04-2001, 10:43 AM
He was the coach for what, 2 years before they went to the super bowl?

WisChief
01-04-2001, 10:46 AM
Because guys like your namesake will NOT play for Gun anymore - they don't believe in him!

Why do you want Gun?

gonzo88
01-04-2001, 10:47 AM
I think Gun is a very intense coach with a strong heart. His only meaning in life is to win games for US. And he has a VERY good record for someone who has only been a HC for two years.

But this isn't about Gun. This is about hiring a loser that got lucky one year AND giving up our newly acquired draft choices (maybe more) just to get him.

NaptownChief
01-04-2001, 10:48 AM
Hell,

He was smart enought to steal Faulk away from the Colts for a 2nd and a 5th...For the past decade we have blown 2 1st rounders, a couple 2nd's and a bunch of 3rd, 4th and 5ths and still don't have a fuggin RB...I will gladly take my chances with Vermeil...

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[b]Leading the Dan Morgan bandwagon</B>

DaWolf
01-04-2001, 10:48 AM
He turned them around in year 3. The Rams team he inherited was a bunch of 3-13 teams with guys like Lawrence Phillip around...

Brock
01-04-2001, 10:50 AM
Gunther is fired. But hey, you can follow him to whatever team he goes to, if you like.

Mile High Mania
01-04-2001, 10:59 AM
I point to the fact that Vermeil was able to get Faulk. Faulk is the reason that the Rams went from worst to first. Yes, Warner was great in that SB run, but Faulk was the cog.

Martz was the offensive genius behind Vermeil, but look what happened this year.

I don't think he's a bad guy, but I don't think that KC fans should expect him to come in and right the ship. I think he would replace the stooges and bring in some order.

Is it a bad idea? Maybe not, but it's not a solution for 4-5 years. As earlier stated, it's a bandaid.

Does KC need a bandaid or a 5 yr vision?

Personally, it doesn't affect me much... but, I think some of you might be getting a bit too excited with the results he had in St Louis.

There are reasons that he left after the Rams won the SB. He was burned out and he knew it would be tough to repeat... esp with that defense. Plus, if he were to return to another team in the short future, he would recieve a HUGE deal. He'll get his wish, but I'm not sure about KC getting their SuperBowl wish.

Good luck with all of that... I think KC should go for a younger, innovative coach in the mold of Shanahan, Billick, etc.

[This message has been edited by Mile High Mania (edited 01-04-2001).]

Mile High Mania
01-04-2001, 11:03 AM
Not to mention ... could you guys handle all of the crying that he does. Sheeesh. http://www.chiefsplanet.com/ubb/biggrin.gif

Baby Lee
01-04-2001, 11:07 AM
Speaking of the crying, does anyone remember when Craig Kilbourne was using Vermeil's "these guys. . . " speech every time one of his 'news' items called for comment? Right in there with the 'chest pains' lady, the 'we can't do dat no more' guy and the 'I say its funny' girl. Funny stuff.

NaptownChief
01-04-2001, 11:09 AM
Pile High, :D

The only problem with that thought is that there is not much available out there right now that qualifies as a "Hot" young guy to grab...Market is pretty bare...

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[b]Leading the Dan Morgan bandwagon</B>

ChiTown
01-04-2001, 11:09 AM
Brad

I don't think you will find us unfamiliar with the crying towel in KC. Lest you forget, we did have Marty, I have a tender side, Shottenheimer for 10 yrs. ;)

There are still puddles left from his tears at One Arrowhead Drive.

ChiTown
~will show some of his own tears if Gun remains as HC

Bob Dole
01-04-2001, 11:09 AM
Bob Dole's feeling is that an appearance by Vermeil would not be intended as a long-term solution to KC's head coaching woes, but a transition period used to groom Saunders.

DaWolf
01-04-2001, 11:10 AM
What you say may be true, but IMO if Carl makes this moves it tells me he feels most of thepieces are there, and since Vermiel and himare close friends he will probably dohis damndest to make some serious offseason moves aimed at filling the holes we do have so that Vermiel can get the job done on the field. Not to mention that there is no way Dick would assemble the worst coaching staff in the NFL. But as with all things, we shall see...

58Forever
01-04-2001, 11:12 AM
MHM, Vermeil would be a bandaid?...sort of...he would stop the bleeding for a couple of years...Gaz said it in another thread...Vermeil would come in here and stay for about 2 years but would be setting up the coaching staff for years to come...Saunders would be groomed to be HC...I think that's exactly Carl's plan...Vermeil would be a great coach to have while other guys are groomed to take over...in the mean time I think he could turn us around and if not get us to the playoffs and beyond, get us very close so that his sucessors would be abelt to finish the job in short order...

Is he the long term answer...probably not, but both he and Carl know this...



------------------
joe

"The word "genius" isn't applicable in football. A genius is a guy like Norman Einstein."
-Joe Theisman, NFL football quarterback and sports analyst

DaWolf
01-04-2001, 11:13 AM
Stupid keyboard has a spacebar problem. Besides, Gunther cried more than anyone around here...

gonzo88
01-04-2001, 11:22 AM
If this deal goes down, I will see you guys sitting here in a year or two complaining "When are going to get rid of this loser Vermeil? I can't believe Carl was a big enough idiot to hire some wash up like him!"

47mack
01-04-2001, 11:22 AM
gonzo88
"I think Gun is a very intense coach with a strong heart."

Show some examples. His players already said that he can't motivate. Vermeil's SB may have been a fluke, but to say it would be better to keep Gunther over him is a fairytail.

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TWB

DaWolf
01-04-2001, 11:25 AM
88,
Maybe, but right now it seems better than sitting here 2 years from now and wondering why we didn't get rid of Gunther...

gonzo88
01-04-2001, 11:26 AM
Brock, I'm a Gun fan, and proud of it! But, if he leaves the Chiefs, it's over. I'm not one of those losers who cries because we lose somebody and then follows them around the NFL (not mentioning names cough *denise* cough). I think Gun should keep his job and we should keep our draft picks. If we get a new head coach, I will support him.

gonzo88
01-04-2001, 11:28 AM
Who were the players who said that Gun "can't motivate me"?

Logical
01-04-2001, 11:31 AM
Gonzo, how about these reasons

1. Probably the only way Peterson dumps Gun
2. Gun being dumped is the only way to get rid of 3 Stooges and Shaw
(by the way I think Shaw is the main reason for soft zones)
3. Vermeil knows good coaching talent and will bring them in.
4. Vermeil's rep will help in regards to 3 may keep vets such as Hasty, Grunny, and Shields at least another year.
5. Vermeil is no nonsense, if Chester and Williams should be benched they will be.
6. Vermeil is a guy who takes chances, hence Marshal Faulk taken for Rams
7. Vermeil recognizes player talent especially at skill positions.
8. Vermeil will develop a replacement HC

Finally is he a savior, hard to be sure but he took two different teams to Super Bowls. Who else out there but the Tuna can say that, and if there is another one available, one that does not demand GM responsibility is non-existent. He probably does not want to be around a long time, I see all those things as a great advatages. By the way with Vermeil the committee gets buried, may it rest in peace.

DaWolf
01-04-2001, 11:32 AM
Hasty, Grunhard, Edwards, Anders all said he was more concerned about himself than the team. No one has come out in support of him since the season has ended. Unnamed assistant coaches have said he has been passing around the blame too much.

I like Gun as a person and as an assistant, but he was no head coach...

gonzo88
01-04-2001, 11:34 AM
Hey, if it works out and gets us to a super bowl, I'm all for it! But, I'm very unconfident about this one.

NaptownChief
01-04-2001, 11:34 AM
Gonzo,

Are you related to Gun in any way?


I have never seen any coach at the professional level get less out of his talent than Gun...Absolutely anything would be an improvement...

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[b]Leading the Dan Morgan bandwagon</B>

Clint in Wichita
01-04-2001, 11:55 AM
Vermeil is the only available head coach that has proven he can win the big one.

That alone convinces me that he'd be a good hire, as long as the compensation doesn't involve decimating the 2001 draft.

DaWolf
01-04-2001, 12:00 PM
I could not see a scenario where the compensation for Vermiel is going to be anything earth shattering, considering that he is in the last year of his contract and this is the only team Vermiel would come back for, so the Rams need to get something instead of nothing, and considering that Marty and Tuna were both named coach/GM but Vermiel will only be coach. The Bellichik thing was different because it was to a division rival...

Mark M
01-04-2001, 12:11 PM
I think most everyone here has come to the same conclusions:
1. Vermeil is a short-term solution.
2. We are better with his AARP card-carrying, crybaby attitude than with Gun's scattelogical one.
3. Carl better not give up all of our draft picks for him.

Has anyone heard what DC's compensation will be to us? Is there any way that Carl just hands over that compensation to St. Louis? Any input here, fellas?

Logical--
Don Shula also took two teams to the SB: The Colts and Dolphins (sorry. Not ripping you, just tired of hearing what a god-like coach Parcells is...I find him overrated, IMO).

MM
~~Just giving his .02¢

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One of the great things about books is sometimes there are some fantastic pictures.
--George W. Bush

morphius
01-04-2001, 12:16 PM
MM - There is also a coach for Denver and now in Atlanta called Dan Reeves who took 2 diff teams to the SB, of course he loses every time, but he has taken teams there.

Baby Lee
01-04-2001, 12:23 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Helvetica, verdana, ariel">quote:</font><HR> scatological: the biologically oriented study of excrement. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Not sure if that's the meaning you were going for. If so kudo's. If not, one of the best Freudian slips I've ever seen.

ct
01-04-2001, 12:35 PM
LMAO JC!!! Great take!

And for gonzo, I'm having a hard time understanding the logic of preferring Gun over Vermeil. You can't be serious!

ct

Spott
01-04-2001, 12:39 PM
Vermeil is better than Gunther but I definitely see Gonzo's point. His overall record is only something like 81-77 and he only had 1 winning season in 5 years w/the Rams.

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It looks I picked the wrong week to quit sniffing glue!

KC Jones
01-04-2001, 12:44 PM
Yea, but his track record involves taking perenial losers from 3-13 seasons to the SB. There is no silver bullet when it comes to coaching (or anything in FB for that matter), but he's a proven coach and can attract talented coaches and players to KC.

NaptownChief
01-04-2001, 12:46 PM
Tampering is a lot like speeding, everyone does it. Just don't be too excessive and stupid about it and nobody gets hurt or cares.

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[b]Leading the Dan Morgan bandwagon</B>

Baby Lee
01-04-2001, 12:51 PM
Is anyone scared at all that Vermeil could lose the Chiefs players as easy as Gunther did? I could see a few poor practices and a few inopportune 'well, when I took the Rams to the SB' or 'when Isaac Bruce ran this route' comments doing as much damage as Gun's apparent 'I, I, I'isms.

NaptownChief
01-04-2001, 12:52 PM
JC,

Not really...Vermeil has much better people skills than Goonthar...

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[b]Leading the Dan Morgan bandwagon</B>

KC Jones
01-04-2001, 12:58 PM
I doubt Vermeil will try to convince his players he knows what he's doing, because he does know what he's doing. All Gunther ever tried to do was convince us and his players that he knew what he was doing - because he had no clue. I bought in hook, line, and sinker when he originally talked about "respect for the game", "attacking in all phases", and returning to our base as an aggressive team. Problem was, he changed what he was preaching after every game.

ct
01-04-2001, 01:01 PM
Let's not forget how Vermeil's hard *** practice schedule and such blew up in his face following the 98 season. He was challenged by many players, listened intently, drastically modified his approach, and they win the Super Bowl. [Also not to be overlooked is thw three additions of Marshall and Kurt and Torry to that offense. We do not have those personell, so I do not expect us to look anything like the Rams offense.]

But he learned a very valuable lesson from his players. I hope he hasn't forgotten.

ct

KC Jones
01-04-2001, 01:06 PM
Great point Coryt!

We do have Alexander, Morris, and Gonzo though. I think Elvis is a better than average starting NFL QB. If we can retool our O-line and get a legitimate RB we have a very very good offense on our hands.

Bob Dole
01-04-2001, 01:08 PM
Bob Dole thought Vermeil was only with the Rams for 3 seasons, mizzou...

Logical
01-04-2001, 01:25 PM
Not to be defensive,

but my statement was "Who else out there but the Tuna can say that, and if there is another one available, one that does not demand GM responsibility is non-existent".

So, I was acknowledging there might be some out there, but they would want GM responsibility to take the position. With Carl in place that is obviously not an option, which was my main point.

Spott
01-04-2001, 01:27 PM
My bad Bob Dole. The Rams came in 95 but didn't get Vermeil until 97. I can't remember who their HC was in St Louis from 95-96.

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It looks I picked the wrong week to quit sniffing glue!

Baby Lee
01-04-2001, 01:29 PM
Rich Brooks

started 'em off 5-0 and went downhill from there.
Now on Atlanta's staff.

Spott
01-04-2001, 01:36 PM
#

[This message has been edited by mizzou5 (edited 01-04-2001).]

donkhater
01-04-2001, 01:57 PM
True Vermeil only had one winning season in St. Louis, but look what he had...

A pretty good young defense and Issac Bruce.

Tony Banks was his QB (Bono was even there for a while I think) and Amp Lee, Ironhead Heyward, Greg Hill, Phillips were just some of his RB's.

When he got Faulk and Warner (Green would've been an improvement, but wouldn't have went all the way IMHO) the team improved in two of the most important positions on the field.

Grbac isn't Warner, but he sure is a helluva lot better than Banks and our running backs, as bad as they are, I think are better than what he had pre-Faulk. Put Banks on the 2000 Chiefs and Gun may only win 4 games, if that.

[This message has been edited by donkhater (edited 01-04-2001).]

G_Man
01-04-2001, 02:12 PM
I like the Vermiel hiring for many reasons. He commands legitimate respect; The last time he was on the field it was holding a SB trophy. He'll bring in a much better group of assistants than we have right now. If the reports of Tobin and Saunders are correct, that'll be three former HCs already. And Vermial and Peterson are friends. They should get along very well and Vermiel will be allowed to assemble the same type of talent he did in StL.

About Vermiel's early failures in StL, what would you expect from a guy who has the kind of talent that he had? Especially after being out of coaching for 14 years. Of course he's not going to be accustomed to today's players. After adjusting to today's game, he won a Super Bowl.

Gaz
01-04-2001, 02:15 PM
Reasons to want Vermeil:

1. The Stooges are gone.
2. Al Saunders as OC and crown price.
3. The Stooges are gone.
4. Vince Tobin as DC.
5. The Stooges are gone.
6. Superbowl winner cachet.
7. The Stooges are gone.
8. Sweeping change might entice Hasty and Grunny to stay.
9. The Stooges are gone.
10. No more RBbC.

xoxo~
gaz
might have mentioned that the Stooges are gone.<BR>

kcred
01-04-2001, 02:19 PM
I guess I can live with the trade off for the picks we get from the Skins. Personally, I hope we gain a little something. The biggest gain, maybe, will be getting a featured back. The fact the stooges are gone, could have been accomplished just by firing Gunther and hiring anyone. It could be that Carl will not give up what the Rams want, and that could still happen.

Tribal Warfare
01-04-2001, 02:22 PM
1) Lamont Jordan or Morgan (if available probably Jordan though)

2) Torrence Marshall

3) Marques Tuiasosopo

3) Mario Fatafehi

4)David Allen

4) Moran Norris

5) BAA

6) BAA

7) BAA



These picks may be tweeked a bit, but I believe Vermeil will go offense in the 1st.

Long live a new prosperous era!!!!!

[This message has been edited by ChiefPriority (edited 01-04-2001).]

NaptownChief
01-04-2001, 02:29 PM
Chief Pri:

Jordan bothers me based on the way his numbers collapsed this year...I don't mind a little drop off but this is a bit steep:

Junior: 6.1 avg 1,632 16TD's
Senior: 4.3 avg 920 11 TD's

That indicates to me that he can be shut down with just a little film review and game plan or he is a head case that got lazy during one of the most important years of his life...

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[b]Leading the Dan Morgan bandwagon</B>

Tribal Warfare
01-04-2001, 02:43 PM
jl80-Yes I'm a littile concerned with his attitude also, but the guy is frustrated because he is a one man show. The Senior Bowl will tell us alot.

[This message has been edited by ChiefPriority (edited 01-04-2001).]

ct
01-04-2001, 02:50 PM
Gaz,

AMEN BROTHER!!!

ct
nothing more to say at this time

Tribal Warfare
01-04-2001, 02:56 PM
Could Vermeil be "the spark" that Grunhard wanted? Maybe not, but it's a start.

NaptownChief
01-04-2001, 03:00 PM
Pri Chief:

Here is my current thoughts on the RB position:

1)Travis Henry
2)James Jackson
3)Michael Bennett
4)Dan Alexander
5)Lamont Jordan
6)Deuce McCallister
7)LaDanian Tomlinson
8)Anthony Thomas


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[b]Leading the Dan Morgan bandwagon</B>

Mark M
01-04-2001, 03:08 PM
logical--
Sorry. I wasn't trying to prove you wrong or anything...I just hate the Tuna and think that everyone gives the guy too much credit. Otherwise, I completely understand and agree with your point.

morph--
Thanks. Reeves is easy to forget.

JC--
It was a little of both. I looked it up before I posted and decided to go with it. :D

Does anyone else think that Vermeil and Carl being such close buddies could actually hurt the team? I like coaches who stand up and demand the players/coaches that he wants. The last thing I want is a coach who is nothing more than Carl's puppet. It should be interesting.

MM
~~Waited until he heard for sure before he posted.

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One of the great things about books is sometimes there are some fantastic pictures.
--George W. Bush

Tribal Warfare
01-04-2001, 03:10 PM
1)Travis Henry- Good Runner, durable, questionable hands.

2)James Jackson- explosive, Jackson is very injury prone

3)Michael Bennett- not comming up

4)Dan Alexander- FB

5)Lamont Jordan- could be a stud if he proves himself at the Senior Bowl

6)Deuce McCallister- He's the Jamal Lewis of the draft.<BR>

Gaz
01-04-2001, 03:11 PM
Fare well, my BB comrades. I am done for the day and headed out to breathe the sweet Stooge-free air.

xoxo~
gaz
filling his lungs with freedom.<BR>

G_Man
01-04-2001, 03:13 PM
Vermiel won't be a puppet. Being friends would make them less likely to have a puppet-puppeteer relationship because they trust and respect one another.

Here's something from the espn article:

Both Vermeil and Peterson will share the decision-making responsibilities on player personnel.

Vermiel had some pretty good drafts at St Louis.

[This message has been edited by G_Man (edited 01-04-2001).]

Red and Gold Mania
01-04-2001, 03:13 PM
Gaz,

one more reason to add to your list.

Vermeil will not tolerate Chesters and Dan Williams' jumping offside!

58Forever
01-04-2001, 03:15 PM
JAN 4 (afternoon)--Carl Peterson, Chiefs president, reiterated again today that his evaluation of his team's football operation is an ongoing one. He would not respond to specific media reports that changes within the Chiefs organization were imminent.
"As I stated previously, I will not be constrained by a timetable," he said today. "I am in the midst of an in-depth look at our entire football operation and that takes time. The evaluation process includes me, coaches, players, and support staff. When I've concluded, then I will make my decisions. I don't plan to take a great deal of time, but I will take whatever time is necessary."


What Carl is saying on Chiefs.com


------------------
joe

"The word "genius" isn't applicable in football. A genius is a guy like Norman Einstein."
-Joe Theisman, NFL football quarterback and sports analyst

Mark M
01-04-2001, 03:28 PM
GMan--
I just saw the link to that article on another thread. Thanks, though. And I agree that Vermeil did a damn fine job building the team—at least on offense. It's the defense I'm worried about. I don't remember the 1980 Eagles, so I don't know how he did with the D there. I just know that the Rams have some issues there only one year after having a decent defensive unit.

To get back to the original question: Why do I want Vermeil?
1. I don't.

I would much rather see Al Saunders or Kubiak or another coach without experience to come in. Why? Because Vermeil is a bit long in the tooth, seems to get entirely too emotional and has problems relating to today's spoiled-brat players (as has been noted in other posts). I'd rather see a younger coach, more in-tune with today's players and more hungry to win a championship.

I do, however, see him as a great improvement, if only for his ability to find offensive talent and to surround himself with good coordinators. Other than that, Im not going to go all goo-goo over the guy until I see another Lombardi trohpy sitting in the Chief's trophy case.

MM
~~Will wait and see.

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One of the great things about books is sometimes there are some fantastic pictures.
--George W. Bush

[This message has been edited by Mark M (edited 01-04-2001).]

ROYC75
01-04-2001, 04:22 PM
Mark M

I agree...skip Vermeil..bring in Al now!<P>

DaWolf
01-04-2001, 04:33 PM
Bringing in Vermiel shows that Carl is ready to put together a team that will win now, not a few years later. Also, remember, Saunders wasn't all that great in his first stint as HC in San Diego. Give him a few years to prepare for the position, then let him take over...

ROYC75
01-04-2001, 04:40 PM
I believe Al has been around enuff now to make a good go of it,but then again,so has Gunther!

The_Grand_Illusion
01-04-2001, 05:12 PM
Anyone remember Vermiel's stint as a game analyst? I remember listening to him back in the 80's. I was very impressed with his commentary and knowledge of the game. I thought it was too bad he wasn't coaching for the Chiefs then (or anywhere). The guy is very smart when it comes to football, IMO. When he was hired by St Louis a few years ago, I knew they found a good coach. I will admit, I was a little jealous, wishing that he had made his comeback with the Chiefs. The thing that has impressed me about his stay in St Louis was his willingness to evolve with the game. I am now happy that he has agreed to coach the Chiefs. The guy is a great coach. That is why I would want him around.

Dan

<BR>