PDA

View Full Version : Jonah Goldberg's backhanded admission that Iraq War was a mistake


banyon
10-19-2006, 03:59 PM
Another one bites the dust...

Jonah Goldberg: Iraq Was a Worthy Mistake
We know now that invading Iraq was the wrong decision, but that doesn't vindicate the antiwar crowd.
October 19, 2006


THERE'S A STRICT taboo in the column-writing business against recycling ideas. So let me start with something fresh.

The Iraq war was a mistake.

I know, I know. But I've never said it before. And I don't enjoy saying it now. I'm sure that to the antiwar crowd this is too little, too late, and that's fine because I'm not joining their ranks anyway.

In the dumbed-down debate we're having, there are only two sides: Pro-war and antiwar. This is silly. First, very few folks who favored the Iraq invasion are abstractly pro-war. Second, the antiwar types aren't really pacifists. They favor military intervention when it comes to stopping genocide in Darfur or starvation in Somalia or doing whatever that was President Clinton did in Haiti. In other words, their objection isn't to war per se. It's to wars that advance U.S. interests (or, allegedly, President Bush's or Israel's or ExxonMobil's interests). I must confess that one of the things that made me reluctant to conclude that the Iraq war was a mistake was my general distaste for the shabbiness of the arguments on the antiwar side.

But that's no excuse. Truth is truth. And the Iraq war was a mistake by the most obvious criteria: If we had known then what we know now, we would never have gone to war with Iraq in 2003. I do think that Congress (including Democrats Hillary Clinton, John Kerry, Jay Rockefeller and John Murtha) was right to vote for the war given what was known — or what was believed to have been known — in 2003. And the claims from Democrats who voted for the war that they were lied to strikes me as nothing more than cowardly buck-passing.

The failure to find weapons of mass destruction is a side issue. The WMD fiasco was a global intelligence failure, but calling Saddam Hussein's bluff after 9/11 was the right thing to do. Washington's more important intelligence failure lay in underestimating what would be required to rebuild and restore post-Hussein Iraq. The White House did not anticipate a low-intensity civil war in Iraq, never planned for it and would not have deemed it in the U.S. interest to pay this high a price in prestige, treasure and, of course, lives.

According to the goofy parameters of the current debate, I'm now supposed to call for withdrawing from Iraq. If it was a mistake to go in, we should get out, some argue. But this is unpersuasive. A doctor will warn that if you see a man stabbed in the chest, you shouldn't rush to pull the knife out. We are in Iraq for good reasons and for reasons that were well-intentioned but wrong. But we are there.

Those who say that it's not the central front in the war on terror are in a worse state of denial than they think Bush is in. Of course it's the central front in the war on terror. That it has become so is a valid criticism of Bush, but it's also strong reason for seeing our Iraqi intervention through. If we pull out precipitously, jihadism will open a franchise in Iraq and gain steam around the world, and the U.S. will be weakened.

Bush's critics claim that democracy promotion was an afterthought, a convenient rebranding of a war gone sour. I think that's unfair, but even if true, it wouldn't mean liberty isn't at stake. It wouldn't mean that promoting a liberal society in the heart of the Arab and Muslim world wouldn't be in our interest and consistent with our ideals. In war, you sometimes end up having to defend ground you wouldn't have chosen with perfect knowledge beforehand. That's us in Iraq.

According to the conventional script, if I'm not saying "bug out" of Iraq, I'm supposed to say "stay the course." But there's a third option, and, funnily enough, I found it in an old column of mine (journalistic taboos be damned!). I think we should ask the Iraqis to vote on whether U.S. troops should stay.

Polling suggests that they want us to go. But polling absent consequences is a form of protest. With accountability, minds may change and appreciation for the U.S. presence might grow.

If Iraqis voted "stay," we'd have a mandate to do what's necessary to win, and our ideals would be reaffirmed. If they voted "go," our values would also be reaffirmed, and we could leave with honor. And pretty much everyone would have to accept democracy as the only legitimate expression of national will.

Finishing the job is better than leaving a mess. And if we can finish the job, the war won't be remembered as a mistake.

jgoldberg@latimescolumnists.com

Donger
10-19-2006, 04:02 PM
I think we should ask the Iraqis to vote on whether U.S. troops should stay.

Heh. Why the hell not? Let's do it.

banyon
10-19-2006, 04:05 PM
Heh. Why the hell not? Let's do it.

They've already taken poll after poll that says they are vastly against our occupation.

Not to mention the majority of Iraqis that take it a step further and feel that attacks on our troops are justified.

|Zach|
10-19-2006, 04:05 PM
Goldberg is prob one of my favorite conservative reads.

Donger
10-19-2006, 04:11 PM
They've already taken poll after poll that says they are vastly against our occupation.

Not to mention the majority of Iraqis that take it a step further and feel that attacks on our troops are justified.

Yeah, okay. So let's see how they vote.

Adept Havelock
10-19-2006, 04:29 PM
Heh. Why the hell not? Let's do it.


OK, But we can't let Diebold anywhere near it. [/jAZ]

Laz
10-19-2006, 04:35 PM
who favored the Iraq invasion are abstractly pro-war.

i don't know about that .... the current neocon crowd have a very "might makes right" mentality.

they have it in the U.S. ... they have it in politics ... they definately have it when dealing with foreign policy.


a very,very fine line between "might makes right" and being pro war.

'Hamas' Jenkins
10-19-2006, 06:07 PM
This column is impossibly arrogant. To assume that we can somehow pacify these warring factions ignores every aspect and tenet of colonial history. Perhaps before advocating the stay the course mentality, Goldberg should actually research what happened to Britain and France when they were placed in similar situations.

banyon
10-19-2006, 08:40 PM
Donger, after re-reading the article I think I agree with you. Making the Iraqis accountable for our role in their future is a way out of the current intractable intransigience the opposing sides of this issue find themselves in. I still think they'll vote us out, but then we can at least agree that the Iraqis have excercised self-determination in their futures.



***edit - this is my first post from my new Treo. Maybe I really am becoming more conservative. :Lin:**

memyselfI
10-19-2006, 08:56 PM
Heh. Why the hell not? Let's do it.

Just make sure there are plenty of Diebold machines and butterfly ballots. You might send the SC over...

just in case.

Donger
10-19-2006, 09:40 PM
Just make sure there are plenty of Diebold machines and butterfly ballots. You might send the SC over...

just in case.

I somehow doubt that the Iraqis are as stupid as Democrats.

But, thanks for your concern.

Donger
10-19-2006, 09:40 PM
OK, But we can't let Diebold anywhere near it. [/jAZ]

ROFL

I really should read before I post. You need to add mememe to your list.

Donger
10-19-2006, 09:42 PM
Donger, after re-reading the article I think I agree with you. Making the Iraqis accountable for our role in their future is a way out of the current intractable intransigience the opposing sides of this issue find themselves in. I still think they'll vote us out, but then we can at least agree that the Iraqis have excercised self-determination in their futures.



***edit - this is my first post from my new Treo. Maybe I really am becoming more conservative. :Lin:**

I'm quite serious. Look at Vietnam when they finally figured out we were REALLY leaving. They freaked out. If the Iraqis want peace, fine. If they want to have a country for themselves, fine. If they want to police their own country, fine. Give us a timeframe, and we're gone.

If they can't deal with that, f*ck them.

Adept Havelock
10-19-2006, 09:51 PM
I'm quite serious. Look at Vietnam when they finally figured out we were REALLY leaving. They freaked out. If the Iraqis want peace, fine. If they want to have a country for themselves, fine. If they want to police their own country, fine. Give us a timeframe, and we're gone.

If they can't deal with that, f*ck them.


:clap: :clap:

MarcBulger
10-19-2006, 09:52 PM
Apparently Muslims cannot handle peace, or democracy. Sad but I think these people only understand one thing total domination of a leader.

Mark M
10-19-2006, 10:13 PM
The failure to find weapons of mass destruction is a side issue.
A side issue?

Weren't WMDs the ENTIRE JUSTIFICATION FOR THE ****ING WAR?!

Goldberg's a tool. Granted, nowhere near the level of a Coulter or Michelle "Our Lady of the Concentration Camps" Malkin, but still a tool.

MM
~~:shake:

Mark M
10-19-2006, 10:14 PM
Apparently Republicans cannot handle peace, or democracy. Sad but I think these people only understand one thing total domination of a leader.

I fixed your post ...

MM
~~:p

Ugly Duck
10-20-2006, 12:15 AM
They've already taken poll after poll that says they are vastly against our occupation.

Not to mention the majority of Iraqis that take it a step further and feel that attacks on our troops are justified.Hey.... they're now free to have such opinions. Fine. They want us out - who are we to tell them otherwise? Lets get our boyz outa their sniper sights and offa their IUD-laden roads.

patteeu
10-20-2006, 08:48 AM
They've already taken poll after poll that says they are vastly against our occupation.

Goldberg addressed this in his column:

Polling suggests that they want us to go. But polling absent consequences is a form of protest. With accountability, minds may change and appreciation for the U.S. presence might grow.

patteeu
10-20-2006, 08:51 AM
i don't know about that .... the current neocon crowd have a very "might makes right" mentality.

they have it in the U.S. ... they have it in politics ... they definately have it when dealing with foreign policy.


a very,very fine line between "might makes right" and being pro war.

That's idiotic. The reality is that might does "make right" in international affairs, but recognizing that reality doesn't make you pro-war. Diplomacy without the threat of consequences for failure is just talk.

patteeu
10-20-2006, 09:03 AM
A side issue?

Weren't WMDs the ENTIRE JUSTIFICATION FOR THE ****ING WAR?!

Goldberg's a tool. Granted, nowhere near the level of a Coulter or Michelle "Our Lady of the Concentration Camps" Malkin, but still a tool.

MM
~~:shake:

You weren't paying very close attention were you.

Radar Chief
10-20-2006, 09:04 AM
Hey.... they're now free to have such opinions. Fine. They want us out - who are we to tell them otherwise? Lets get our boyz outa their sniper sights and offa their IUD-laden roads.

:LOL: I know what’cha meant but that’s a little to Freudian to just watch it go by. ;)

Radar Chief
10-20-2006, 09:06 AM
A side issue?

Weren't WMDs the ENTIRE JUSTIFICATION FOR THE ****ING WAR?!

MM
~~:shake:

Um, no. Here, arm yourself with knowledge. ;)

http://www.whitehouse.gov/news/rele...20021007-8.html

October 2002
President Bush Outlines Iraqi Threat

jspchief
10-20-2006, 09:07 AM
Donger, after re-reading the article I think I agree with you. Making the Iraqis accountable for our role in their future is a way out of the current intractable intransigience the opposing sides of this issue find themselves in. I still think they'll vote us out, but then we can at least agree that the Iraqis have excercised self-determination in their futures.



***edit - this is my first post from my new Treo. Maybe I really am becoming more conservative. :Lin:**While on one hand it might be the "easy out" we're looking for, the long term ramifications can't be good.

There's a pretty good chance that Iraq would become an utter clusterf*ck if we just up and left, and the end result will be a nasty breeding ground for terrorism (worse than what already exists, simply because there will be no one there to keep them in check).

I'd like our troops home safe as much as anybody, but we've started a forest fire a long way from home. If we leave now, that fire is eventually going to come blazing onto our doorstep.

HC_Chief
10-20-2006, 09:09 AM
Very good read. I agree: let the Iraqis dictate their own future.... have them VOTE on our presence. Should we stay or should we go? It's up to the Iraqi voters.

Iraqis vote for us to stay, we lay out a plan for victory, then stay until the primary objective is completed.

Iraqis vote for us to leave, we begin troop redeployment. Stage redeployments over a 6-12month period; ending in total end to occupation.

banyon
10-20-2006, 09:49 AM
While on one hand it might be the "easy out" we're looking for, the long term ramifications can't be good.

There's a pretty good chance that Iraq would become an utter clusterf*ck if we just up and left, and the end result will be a nasty breeding ground for terrorism (worse than what already exists, simply because there will be no one there to keep them in check).

I'd like our troops home safe as much as anybody, but we've started a forest fire a long way from home. If we leave now, that fire is eventually going to come blazing onto our doorstep.

How do people know that, or why do they think that it's true?

patteeu
10-20-2006, 10:50 AM
How do people know that, or why do they think that it's true?

Since Al Qaeda has indicated that Iraq is their top priority, don't you think it makes sense that once they achieve their objective of driving us out of that country, they will focus more resources on attacking us elsewhere?

banyon
10-20-2006, 12:15 PM
Since Al Qaeda has indicated that Iraq is their top priority, don't you think it makes sense that once they achieve their objective of driving us out of that country, they will focus more resources on attacking us elsewhere?

Well, it seems to assume things which I don't think are known or make sense.

1) There is no other way to effectively counter Al-Qaeda's ability to strike us on our own soil besides having our troops die in Iraq.

2) Al Qaeda will not attack us abroad, as they have done every time, with the exception of 9-11.

Adept Havelock
10-20-2006, 03:31 PM
Iraqis vote for us to stay, we lay out a plan for victory, then stay until the primary objective is completed.


So what the hell are we doing there if we didn't already have a plan for victory?

Mark M
10-20-2006, 09:22 PM
Um, no. Here, arm yourself with knowledge. ;)

http://www.whitehouse.gov/news/rele...20021007-8.html

You might want to actually give me something containing knowledge. :p

Eleven years ago, as a condition for ending the Persian Gulf War, the Iraqi regime was required to destroy its weapons of mass destruction, to cease all development of such weapons, and to stop all support for terrorist groups. The Iraqi regime has violated all of those obligations.

No, it <a href="http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/3718150.stm">did not.</a>

It possesses and produces chemical and biological weapons. It is seeking nuclear weapons.

No, <a href="http://www.usatoday.com/news/world/iraq/2004-03-02-un-wmd_x.htm">it wasn't.</a>

It has given shelter and support to terrorism,

Again, <a href="http://intelligence.senate.gov/phaseiiaccuracy.pdf">no.</a> (PDF)

and practices terror against its own people.
Okay, I'll give him that one. And, to be honest, if that was our mission in Iraq -- or even around the world -- I'd almost buy into it. But it's not, or else we'd be doing more in countries that actually need the help (Darfur, Haiti, Nepal, pretty much the entire African continent).

But that speech wasn't about the people of Iraq or being some noble country that goes around rescuing oppressed peoples everywhere. And the numbers show it.

He mentions the Iraqi people/citizens 10 times, and tyrant is in there 3 times. Of course, "freedom" (for the Iraqi people) isn't in there, nor is anything about spreading democracy. Granted, the word oil isn't in there either, but I've never thought oil was anything more than a bonus in their eyes.

On the other hand, he does mention WMDs (including "biological" and "nuklere" etc.) 36 times.

As a writer who crafts public relations statements on a daily basis (and whose boss is a former Cap. Hill staffer, lobbyist, and political consultant) I can assure you that it wasn't an accident. Bush and Co. clearly wanted to get across the WMD connection, along with a false one to 9/11. So they crafted a speech that was keyword rich, focusing primarily on the WMD angle, adding in some tenuous ties to terrorism, and then wrapping it all up in order to project American anger over 9/11 onto a country that absolutely nothing to do with it.

And in the end, pretty much everything wound up being wrong.

Some worry that a change of leadership in Iraq could create instability and make the situation worse. The situation could hardly get worse, for world security and for the people of Iraq.
It'd be funny if weren't so sad.

MM
~~:sulk:

BucEyedPea
10-20-2006, 09:27 PM
Apparently Muslims cannot handle peace, or democracy. Sad but I think these people only understand one thing total domination of a leader.
That's why a thug like Hussein was workable for that area. It's no wonder they've had a history of rogue rulers.

I agree Donger...and if two groups of people want to handle things by killing one another, then let 'em have at it until one side wins. None of our business.