SPECIAL COMMENT By Keith Olbermann 'Beginning of the end of America'

[Dave Lane]

SPECIAL COMMENT
By Keith Olbermann
Anchor, 'Countdown'
Countdown
Updated: 2:00 p.m. CT Oct 19, 2006

We have lived as if in a trance.

We have lived as people in fear.

And now—our rights and our freedoms in peril—we slowly awaken to learn that we have been afraid of the wrong thing.
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Therefore, tonight have we truly become the inheritors of our American legacy.

For, on this first full day that the Military Commissions Act is in force, we now face what our ancestors faced, at other times of exaggerated crisis and melodramatic fear-mongering:

A government more dangerous to our liberty, than is the enemy it claims to protect us from.

We have been here before—and we have been here before, led here by men better and wiser and nobler than George W. Bush.

We have been here when President John Adams insisted that the Alien and Sedition Acts were necessary to save American lives, only to watch him use those acts to jail newspaper editors.

American newspaper editors, in American jails, for things they wrote about America.

We have been here when President Woodrow Wilson insisted that the Espionage Act was necessary to save American lives, only to watch him use that Act to prosecute 2,000 Americans, especially those he disparaged as “Hyphenated Americans,” most of whom were guilty only of advocating peace in a time of war.

American public speakers, in American jails, for things they said about America.

And we have been here when President Franklin D. Roosevelt insisted that Executive Order 9066 was necessary to save American lives, only to watch him use that order to imprison and pauperize 110,000 Americans while his man in charge, General DeWitt, told Congress: “It makes no difference whether he is an American citizen—he is still a Japanese.”

American citizens, in American camps, for something they neither wrote nor said nor did, but for the choices they or their ancestors had made about coming to America.

Each of these actions was undertaken for the most vital, the most urgent, the most inescapable of reasons.

And each was a betrayal of that for which the president who advocated them claimed to be fighting.

Adams and his party were swept from office, and the Alien and Sedition Acts erased.

Many of the very people Wilson silenced survived him, and one of them even ran to succeed him, and got 900,000 votes, though his presidential campaign was conducted entirely from his jail cell.

And Roosevelt’s internment of the Japanese was not merely the worst blight on his record, but it would necessitate a formal apology from the government of the United States to the citizens of the United States whose lives it ruined.

The most vital, the most urgent, the most inescapable of reasons.

In times of fright, we have been only human.

We have let Roosevelt’s “fear of fear itself” overtake us.
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We have listened to the little voice inside that has said, “the wolf is at the door; this will be temporary; this will be precise; this too shall pass.”

We have accepted that the only way to stop the terrorists is to let the government become just a little bit like the terrorists.

Just the way we once accepted that the only way to stop the Soviets was to let the government become just a little bit like the Soviets.

Or substitute the Japanese.

Or the Germans.

Or the Socialists.

Or the Anarchists.

Or the Immigrants.

Or the British.

Or the Aliens.

The most vital, the most urgent, the most inescapable of reasons.

And, always, always wrong.

“With the distance of history, the questions will be narrowed and few: Did this generation of Americans take the threat seriously, and did we do what it takes to defeat that threat?”

Wise words.

And ironic ones, Mr. Bush.

Your own, of course, yesterday, in signing the Military Commissions Act.

You spoke so much more than you know, Sir.

Sadly—of course—the distance of history will recognize that the threat this generation of Americans needed to take seriously was you.

We have a long and painful history of ignoring the prophecy attributed to Benjamin Franklin that “those who would give up essential liberty to purchase a little temporary safety, deserve neither liberty nor safety.”

But even within this history we have not before codified the poisoning of habeas corpus, that wellspring of protection from which all essential liberties flow.

You, sir, have now befouled that spring.

You, sir, have now given us chaos and called it order.

You, sir, have now imposed subjugation and called it freedom.

For the most vital, the most urgent, the most inescapable of reasons.

And — again, Mr. Bush — all of them, wrong.

We have handed a blank check drawn against our freedom to a man who has said it is unacceptable to compare anything this country has ever done to anything the terrorists have ever done.

We have handed a blank check drawn against our freedom to a man who has insisted again that “the United States does not torture. It’s against our laws and it’s against our values” and who has said it with a straight face while the pictures from Abu Ghraib Prison and the stories of Waterboarding figuratively fade in and out, around him.

We have handed a blank check drawn against our freedom to a man who may now, if he so decides, declare not merely any non-American citizens “unlawful enemy combatants” and ship them somewhere—anywhere -- but may now, if he so decides, declare you an “unlawful enemy combatant” and ship you somewhere - anywhere.

And if you think this hyperbole or hysteria, ask the newspaper editors when John Adams was president or the pacifists when Woodrow Wilson was president or the Japanese at Manzanar when Franklin Roosevelt was president.

And if you somehow think habeas corpus has not been suspended for American citizens but only for everybody else, ask yourself this: If you are pulled off the street tomorrow, and they call you an alien or an undocumented immigrant or an “unlawful enemy combatant”—exactly how are you going to convince them to give you a court hearing to prove you are not? Do you think this attorney general is going to help you?

This President now has his blank check.

He lied to get it.

He lied as he received it.

Is there any reason to even hope he has not lied about how he intends to use it nor who he intends to use it against?

“These military commissions will provide a fair trial,” you told us yesterday, Mr. Bush, “in which the accused are presumed innocent, have access to an attorney and can hear all the evidence against them.”

"Presumed innocent," Mr. Bush?

The very piece of paper you signed as you said that, allows for the detainees to be abused up to the point just before they sustain “serious mental and physical trauma” in the hope of getting them to incriminate themselves, and may no longer even invoke The Geneva Conventions in their own defense.

"Access to an attorney," Mr. Bush?

Lieutenant Commander Charles Swift said on this program, Sir, and to the Supreme Court, that he was only granted access to his detainee defendant on the promise that the detainee would plead guilty.

"Hearing all the evidence," Mr. Bush?

The Military Commissions Act specifically permits the introduction of classified evidence not made available to the defense.

Your words are lies, Sir.

They are lies that imperil us all.

“One of the terrorists believed to have planned the 9/11 attacks,” you told us yesterday, “said he hoped the attacks would be the beginning of the end of America.”

That terrorist, sir, could only hope.

Not his actions, nor the actions of a ceaseless line of terrorists (real or imagined), could measure up to what you have wrought.

Habeas corpus? Gone.

The Geneva Conventions? Optional.

The moral force we shined outwards to the world as an eternal beacon, and inwards at ourselves as an eternal protection? Snuffed out.

These things you have done, Mr. Bush, they would be “the beginning of the end of America.”

And did it even occur to you once, sir — somewhere in amidst those eight separate, gruesome, intentional, terroristic invocations of the horrors of 9/11 -- that with only a little further shift in this world we now know—just a touch more repudiation of all of that for which our patriots died --- did it ever occur to you once that in just 27 months and two days from now when you leave office, some irresponsible future president and a “competent tribunal” of lackeys would be entitled, by the actions of your own hand, to declare the status of “unlawful enemy combatant” for -- and convene a Military Commission to try -- not John Walker Lindh, but George Walker Bush?

For the most vital, the most urgent, the most inescapable of reasons.

And doubtless, Sir, all of them—as always—wrong.

[Dave Lane]

For the video go here...

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/15321167/

Dave

[memyselfI]

K.O. has been outstanding in his pointing out the idiocy of the WH and DUHbya the past month. I look forward to meeting him at Gitmo someday. :rolleyes: :hmmm: :mad:

[memyselfI]

K.O. has been outstanding in his pointing out the idiocy of the WH and DUHbya over the past month. I look forward to meeting him at Gitmo someday. :rolleyes: :hmmm: :mad:

$$$$$$$ quote:

Your words are lies, Sir.

They are lies that imperil us all.

“One of the terrorists believed to have planned the 9/11 attacks,” you told us yesterday, “said he hoped the attacks would be the beginning of the end of America.”

That terrorist, sir, could only hope.

Not his actions, nor the actions of a ceaseless line of terrorists (real or imagined), could measure up to what you have wrought.

Habeas corpus? Gone.

The Geneva Conventions? Optional.

The moral force we shined outwards to the world as an eternal beacon, and inwards at ourselves as an eternal protection? Snuffed out.

These things you have done, Mr. Bush, they would be “the beginning of the end of America.”

[Adept Havelock]

I look forward to meeting him at Gitmo someday. :rolleyes: :hmmm: :mad:

ROFL LMAO :LOL: :rolleyes:

hu‧bris  /ˈhyubrɪs, ˈhu-/ [hyoo-bris, hoo-]
–noun
excessive pride or self-confidence; arrogance.

[KC Dan]

Olbermann was a half-assed talking head on ESPN and he is even worse on MS"snooze"NBC. I have watched many of his shows to see if he gets any better and he is nothing more than a TV version of Randi Rhodes or Stuart Smiley. I await the day he gets fired for pontificating his ignoramous comments on the air. he will screw up, it's only a matter of time. And, if it means that he and mememymymimi both meet in a Gitmo cell - I'll pay the airfare.

[Pitt Gorilla]

Olbermann was a half-assed talking head on ESPN and he is even worse on MS"snooze"NBC. I have watched many of his shows to see if he gets any better and he is nothing more than a TV version of Randi Rhodes or Stuart Smiley. I await the day he gets fired for pontificating his ignoramous comments on the air. he will screw up, it's only a matter of time. And, if it means that he and mememymymimi both meet in a Gitmo cell - I'll pay the airfare.
Ok, you don't like Keith. What about this particular piece?

[Adept Havelock]

Olbermann was a half-assed talking head on ESPN and he is even worse on MS"snooze"NBC. I have watched many of his shows to see if he gets any better and he is nothing more than a TV version of Randi Rhodes or Stuart Smiley. I await the day he gets fired for pontificating his ignoramous comments on the air. he will screw up, it's only a matter of time. And, if it means that he and mememymymimi both meet in a Gitmo cell - I'll pay the airfare.

Yeah, he'll get canned over being a pundit. Just like Hannity, Press, Dowd, Will, or the Loofah King. :rolleyes:

If you got thrown in Gitmo for being a political windbag, it's gonna fill up pretty fast. I think we might have a better use for those spaces.

[KC Dan]

Ok, you don't like Keith. What about this particular piece?
I don't like Keith because he just uses his excellent use of language and joke-making to basically say what the extreme left says "We hate Bush". That is fine for him and his crowd, it is just a method of bashing that i don't enjoy or respect. The same goes for the extreme right clowns as mentioned by another here (Hannity,Savage and other). "We hate Clinton and everything bad came because of him. They are all just windbags IMO.
Their methods remind me of close-minded individuals that fail to view any view other than their own as legitimate. Give me the old days of Walter Cronkite and the evening news show. "Just the facts ma'am, just the facts" There is no respect given to Americans opinions by these people. Just "your and idiot and I am right" --- Please..... If he really thinks that Bush has put this country in dange of imploding and destroying itself then he truly is wacked. JMHO.

And, I really don't want political windbags thrown in the slammer. I just want them to STFU & STFD. We can make up our own minds without their commentary. Put it on the back page of the paper where it all belongs.

[Dave Lane]

Sounds to me like your mind is already made up so don't watch...

Dave

[SBK]

Is there any wonder why nobody watches pMSNBC?

KO is and idiot.

[KC Dan]

Sounds to me like your mind is already made up so don't watch...

Dave
See Dave, that is exactly what I am talking about. I cannot be swayed by a fool that is totally closed minded. If your view of me is correct then you most likely think that I am a "kool-aide drinking O'reilly minion". Nothing could be farther from the truth. He is mostly a hot head pulling his stunts for ratings.
My mind is not made up - not by far. If a legitimate viewpoint is offered and backed by reason negating my view by means of sound reason - I will change. Example - commentaries/books I have seen or read about our current Congress and their actual votes have swayed me from my belief that the Repubs are not spenders and to back them for reducing taxes and spending. They are politicians that will spend every dime we send them and then some for re-election. The days of right = cut spending/taxes and the left = raise taxes/spend are over. All spend and do not cut. Their only job is to be re-elected. The only savior the repubs have in my eyes is that they DO cut taxes.
I watch all of the different "news" programs because once in a great while one is offered a well-reasoned opinion that isn't "Bush is the devil" & "It's all Clinton's fault". Unfortunately those moments are few and far between. It is kind of like this forum. Most are so hard and fast that their political argument is badly tainted. I learn almost nothing from that. Maybe this explains my thought process, it is hard to do on a bulletin board.

[Dave Lane]

Well thats a good thing then. I have been a Repub and a independent. Never really been a true Dem but I'll vote that way this time as at least a protest against what I see happening.

I to can be swayed but right now I really think Bush and Co has taken us down the wrong path. It would take a whole lot right now to restore much faith in GWB for me.

Dave

[Rausch]

ROFL LMAO :LOL: :rolleyes:

hu?bris? /?hyubr?s, ?hu-/ [hyoo-bris, hoo-]
–noun
excessive pride or self-confidence; arrogance.

It's a joke.

It's like warning the world that Forest Gump is going to become big Brother.

He's not. He's looking for chocolates and pretzels with lubrication.

We are in a world of $#it right now and the idea that the idiot that got us there or the idiots advising him are going to find some way to steal away our rights and and destroy the constitution is laughable.

Incompetance is rampant in DC right now and instead the libs focus on nonsense such as "Bush has a plan to steal your rights! The right win is after you!"

At this point I'm willing to believe his battle plan was drawn out in crayon, barely between the lines, and at worst his inability to spell consitution will be his saving grace...

[Ugly Duck]

K.O. has been outstanding in his pointing out the idiocy of the WH and DUHbya. the past month. Olberman like totally rocks, dude! I'm watching every night so I won't miss one of his excellent rants.

[memyselfI]

ROFL LMAO :LOL: :rolleyes:

hu‧bris  /ˈhyubrɪs, ˈhu-/ [hyoo-bris, hoo-]
–noun
excessive pride or self-confidence; arrogance.

Actually not. If you are a regular fan of his show, as am I, you would know that he's been telling guests who have been critical of the administration that he'll see them at Gitmo. Most recently he's been very concerned about Johnathon Turley (Georgetown Legal Scholar) and his ranting about King George and his wreckless disregard for the constitution.

He, and Keith, are pretty much of the belief that any of us not towing the BS WH party line could end up there and I'm inclined to agree with them.

[Cochise]

ROFL LMAO :LOL: :rolleyes:

hu‧bris  /ˈhyubrɪs, ˈhu-/ [hyoo-bris, hoo-]
–noun
excessive pride or self-confidence; arrogance.

Noun 1. delusions of grandeur - a delusion (common in paranoia) that you are much greater and more powerful and influential than you really are.

[stevieray]

Actually not. If you are a regular fan of his show, as am I, you would know that he's been telling guests who have been critical of the administration that he'll see them at Gitmo. Most recently he's been very concerned about Johnathon Turley (Georgetown Legal Scholar) and his ranting about King George and his wreckless disregard for the constitution.

He, and Keith, are pretty much of the belief that any of us not towing the BS WH party line could end up there and I'm inclined to agree with them.

talk about selling fear.

The beginning of the end for this country started when getting laid became more important than the responsibility that came with it.

[memyselfI]

And, I really don't want political windbags thrown in the slammer. I just want them to STFU & STFD. We can make up our own minds without their commentary. Put it on the back page of the paper where it all belongs.

How very democratic of you... ROFL

In actuality, if more simpletons in this country HAD listened to KO or Pat Buchanan (on the 'right') then this country wouldn't be looking like the big smoking pile of Raiduhs that it appears to be at the moment. No, we'd actually look like we had the strength to stop NK and the moral high ground to take on Iran...

but NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO. GWB decided he just HAD to partake of something that even his father and his fathers best buddies warned him not to do. And now, now people like KO take the abysmal satisfaction (if you can call it that) of saying 'I told you so' while knowing that there are still a large number of simpletons out there who don't get it and never will.

This whole fiasco isn't soley GWB's fault. He was merely the madman with an idea. The Congress, the silent media, and the flag waving obedient citizenry of this country actually hold MORE BLAME than does DUHbya because they HELD more power than he did. Now that he's completely in control we have only ourselves to blame.

However, those of us who were not standing by quietly FROM THE BEGINNING are not about to STFU up now. Nope. We are going to continue to remind YOU and OTHERS LIKE YOU how the fugg we got into this mess in the first place...

and that goes back to simpletons not listening to people like KO and instead listening to geneuses like GWB.

[HC_Chief]

This piece is a shining example of why NBC is tanking.

[KC Dan]

How very democratic of you... ROFL

and that goes back to simpletons not listening to people like KO and instead listening to geneuses like GWB.
Actually, it is so very democratic of me. I still let them put it in the paper not elevate them to "expert" status. That is what the 24 hour news channels have done. They have given voice to scaremongers on the right and wackos on the left helping them to achieve this level of "expertism". When actually each nightly debate show should have a disclaimer at the beginning stating this is for entertainment value only!

Simpleton! Ha! I could decimate you and most left/right wackos in any debate at any time. I have more knowledge and world experience in my pinky than you have in that pea sized brain you call home. Continue your hate-mongering.

Peace-out

[KC Dan]

Well thats a good thing then. I have been a Repub and a independent. Never really been a true Dem but I'll vote that way this time as at least a protest against what I see happening.

I to can be swayed but right now I really think Bush and Co has taken us down the wrong path. It would take a whole lot right now to restore much faith in GWB for me.

Dave
agreed

[Baby Lee]

We have a long and painful history of ignoring the prophecy attributed to Benjamin Franklin that “those who would give up essential liberty to purchase a little temporary safety, deserve neither liberty nor safety.”
I cite that homily EVERY TIME they pull me over for doing 110 in a school zone.

[patteeu]

Why is Olbermann (and those who cheer him) so afraid?

[bunnytrdr]

talk about selling fear.

The beginning of the end for this country started when getting laid became more important than the responsibility that came with it.:clap:

[bunnytrdr]

Oberman, is a pompous ass, and nobody except Meme watches his show.

[chagrin]

Did that dipshit just really write "then this country wouldn't be looking like the big smoking pile of that it appears to be at the moment."?

The reason I ask, is because as I have many times before pointed out. If you sit around all day, addicted to leftist poltical talk shows and do nothing more than TALK with other self loving, inactive, wind bags, nothing will ever change.

What is the most repulsive about her (and the cronies), is that I have not read one single thing she has DONE, other than TALK about this on this single board. It's sad really, take part in the change if you want it to happen. All the bullshit here, you're just practicing for a book you will never write and and a speech you will never give; probably because your husband, the one who makes the money of your household, needs you home to cook food and clean the house and care for the kids - a very traditional, old fashioned ideal for a new wave hippie fear mongering wacko such as meme.

[Baby Lee]

But even within this history we have not before codified the poisoning of habeas corpus, that wellspring of protection from which all essential liberties flow.
Anyone wanna lay odds that, if Bush had rushed in and took command of the situation post-Katrina, Olbie and his ilk would have solemnly shook their heads and mourned the fatal poisoning of posse comitatus, that wellspring of protection from which all essential liberties flow.

[Brock]

Please. Olbermannnn would dance on the grave of the second amendment if he had the opportunity.

[Pitt Gorilla]

Simpleton! Ha! I could decimate you and most left/right wackos in any debate at any time. I have more knowledge and world experience in my pinky than you have in that pea sized brain you call home. Continue your hate-mongering. AND, your dad is bigger!!one!!1

[Adept Havelock]

Actually not.


Actually, it is. The notion you or Keith would be deemed worthy of being sent to Gitmo is nothing but Hubris. If your worst overly paranoid fantasies were to come true, you wouldn't end up in Gitmo.

You'd be hauled out behind a shed and given a noodle. No muss, no fuss.

:shrug:

[Adept Havelock]

talk about selling fear.

The beginning of the end for this country started when getting laid became more important than the responsibility that came with it.

What responsibility?




Provided one is intelligent enough to use contraception or have an operation to remove the possibility of pregnancy, that is. :p

[Dave Lane]

What responsibility?




Provided one is intelligent enough to use contraception or have an operation to remove the possibility of pregnancy, that is. :p


And Bingo was his name-o

Dave

[stevieray]

And Bingo was his name-o

Dave

:rolleyes:

[Adept Havelock]

I cite that homily EVERY TIME they pull me over for doing 110 in a school zone.


.

[Baby Lee]

.
I am sacrificing the liberty to drive whatever speed I wish for the safety of myself and school kids. In doing so, I apparently deserve neither.

Oh, do you want an 'ESSENTIAL' liberty? How about when I sacrifice the liberty to confer with an enemy state regarding troop movements for the safety of my state and it's soldiers?

[ChiefaRoo]

Ok, you don't like Keith. What about this particular piece?

Good article, good drama however Mr. Olbermann vastly overstates the issue and he is completely over the top in his examples comparing The Pat. Act/ Military Comm. Act with Japanese AMERICAN internment during WW2. Our reality requires a security response from our Govt. I don't want to have parts of Chicago, NYC or Seattle blown up by a fuggin terrorist because the Feds couldn't listen in or connect the dots. W. wants to listen in on Intl. or domestic phone calls that reference Al Qaeda and planned attacks on US cities. I don't like it, but its necessary. Who wouldn't be willing to trade a rather small invasion of our privacy for the security of our way of life and our people?

No American citizen has gone missing off the streets Mr. Olbermann and no one will. If god forbid it ever came to that we'd all revolt against the tyranny of the govt. but my money is on our system as I for one believe in the US system, our leaders and as a rule the people to respect and defend our rights not to take them away. W. is a good man in a very difficult position.

Save the drama for the NYC/Washington cocktail parties Keith where you can wax on about your fanciful theories regarding police states and what used to be "America".

I see a bright future for you Mr. Olbermann. Your dramatic flare and $2,000 suits would make a great addition to any of the popular day time soap operas where drama rules and reality is just political point of view.

[Adept Havelock]

I am sacrificing the liberty to drive whatever speed I wish for the safety of myself and school kids. In doing so, I apparently deserve neither.

Oh, do you want an 'ESSENTIAL' liberty? How about when I sacrifice the liberty to confer with an enemy state regarding troop movements for the safety of my state and it's soldiers?

You make a valid point concerning your driving example, however I consider Habeus Corpus essential as far as US Citizens are concerned.

I find it rather tragic that so many of our legislators, our chief executive, and many of their supporters do not. :shrug:

I'm also fairly certain that's what the poster who quoted B. Franklin was referring to, as it was one of the primary points of the original post.

Are you comfortable with the "Military Commissions" bill repeal of Habeus Corpus for accused US citizens?

Perhaps it's just me, but I don't trust anyone with that kind of power.

[memyselfI]

Actually, it is. The notion you or Keith would be deemed worthy of being sent to Gitmo is nothing but Hubris. If your worst overly paranoid fantasies were to come true, you wouldn't end up in Gitmo.

You'd be hauled out behind a shed and given a noodle. No muss, no fuss.

:shrug:

Oh, that's right. You've been here since March 2005. You missed the calls for the FBI and the Secret Service to be notified about my posts dissing DUHbya and my perceived support of our enemy. You also must have missed the times I've been told by more than one or two people on the board that I deserved to end up at Gitmo. :rolleyes:

Fact is, neither Keith or I will likely end up there. But if some folks had their way then that would be an ideal way to silence the dissent coming from me, him, and alot of others.

[memyselfI]

AND, your dad is bigger!!one!!1

ROFL

[Adept Havelock]

Oh, that's right. You've been here since March 2005. You missed the calls for the FBI and the Secret Service to be notified about my posts dissing DUHbya and my perceived support of our enemy. You also must have missed the times I've been told by more than one or two people on the board that I deserved to end up at Gitmo. :rolleyes:

Fact is, neither Keith or I will likely end up there. But if some folks had their way then that would be an ideal way to silence the dissent coming from me, him, and alot of others.


Frankly, I could care less about who you've pissed off around here, or how they've reacted to it. Why don't you whine about it to someone who does?

Seems to me you like to throw gasoline on the fire. So do I, but I don't cry like a little girl when I get burned doing it.

Fact is, your statement was nothing but over the top hubris. Deal with it.

BTW- No matter how you dress it up, "Noob" smack is quite weak.

[memyselfI]

Frankly, I could care less about who you've pissed off around here, or how they've reacted to it. Why don't you whine about it to someone who does?

Fact is, your statement was nothing but over the top hubris. Deal with it.

Well you have sure carried on for awhile about something you could 'care less' about...

My statement was over the top (by design) but it was meant to be more sarcastic humor than self absorbed hubris. :harumph:

[penchief]

The beginning of the end for this country started when getting laid became more important than the responsibility that came with it.

The beginning of the end for this country started when "someone else getting laid" became more important to republicans than serving this country's best interests. They opted to participate in a back-door coup detat rather than do the job they were sent to Washington to do.

The Clinton witch hunt is all the proof anyone needs that the republican establishment is corrupt to the bone. And the unchecked abuses of power by this White House and both houses of congress over the past six years have only proven that fact.

Ever since Nixon (and especially Reagan), republicans have shown that they will do ANYTHING to win, consolodate, and preserve power. Even things that are in direct conflict with common decency or our libertarian traditions. Republicans are the servants of the power-elite and they have no qualms about perverting our democracy in order to serve their financial masters.

IMO, they've proven themselves unworthy as guardians of our democracy and our liberty.

[Adept Havelock]

Well you have sure carried on for awhile about something you could 'care less' about...



OK, once more for the little lady who has proven herself short on reading comprehension.

I've "carried on" about your astounding hubris.

I "couldn't care less" (error in the first post, said could when I intended couldn't) about who you've pissed off while you're here, or your incessant whining about how victimized you are because of it.

Capisce?

IMO, you wouldn't react this way to the comment if it didn't ring true. ROFL

Look at the bright side. Even if those paranoid delusions you share with KO came true, they probably wouldn't charge your family for the noodle like they do in China.

[patteeu]

The beginning of the end for this country started when "someone else getting laid" became more important to republicans than serving this country's best interests. They opted to participate in a back-door coup detat rather than do the job they were sent to Washington to do.

The Clinton witch hunt is all the proof anyone needs that the republican establishment is corrupt to the bone. And the unchecked abuses of power by this White House and both houses of congress over the past six years have only proven that fact.

Ever since Nixon (and especially Reagan), republicans have shown that they will do ANYTHING to win, consolodate, and preserve power. Even things that are in direct conflict with common decency or our libertarian traditions. Republicans are the servants of the power-elite and they have no qualms about perverting our democracy in order to serve their financial masters.

IMO, they've proven themselves unworthy as guardians of our democracy and our liberty.

Can't you guys ever get over Clinton? You had him for 8 years, now he's gone.

[mlyonsd]

The Clinton witch hunt is all the proof anyone needs that the republican establishment is corrupt to the bone.

WTF? What you perceive as Clinton just lying under oath about sex in reality was about an elected official using his office to step on the rights of a state employee (Paula Jones).

If that were a republican the democrats would have their torches lit and set to kill.

Your guy set the bar in Washington. If anyone that I vote for stoops to that level I won't vote for them ever again.

[memyselfI]

IMO, you wouldn't react this way to the comment if it didn't ring true. ROFL



Actually, over the ten plus years I've been on this (and the other KCBB) board I've said a number of things that could be considered hubris. This just didn't happen to be one of them. That is why I chose to 'react this way.' But to each their own, I guess.

[penchief]

Can't you guys ever get over Clinton? You had him for 8 years, now he's gone.

I was only responding to stevieray's Clinton reference which I believe was way off-base. When is stevieray ever going to get over Clinton? When are republicans, in general, going to get over Clinton? Why do republican's continue to invoke Clinton?

I rarely bring him into the discussion unless a Bush-apologist does first. I can't stand by and allow people to ignorantly proclaim that this administration's problems were all caused by the previous administration.

What a bunch of chicken-shit pass-the-buckers. And that includes anyone that subscribes to such a chicken-shit theory.

This administration has nearly ruined this country in six short years. Anyone that wants to blame the boogeyman instead of those who are actually responsible is either dishonest, gullible, or delusional, IMO.

[patteeu]

I was only responding to stevieray's Clinton reference which I believe was way off-base. When is stevieray ever going to get over Clinton? When are republicans, in general, going to get over Clinton? Why do republican's continue to invoke Clinton?

I rarely bring him into the discussion unless a Bush-apologist does first. I can't stand by and allow people to ignorantly proclaim that this administration's problems were all caused by the previous administration.

What a bunch of chicken-shit pass-the-buckers. And that includes anyone that subscribes to such a chicken-shit theory.

This administration has nearly ruined this country in six short years. Anyone that wants to blame the boogeyman instead of those who are actually responsible is either dishonest, gullible, or delusional, IMO.

I missed the stevieray reference, sorry. Carry on with your trip down memory lane.

[penchief]

WTF? What you perceive as Clinton just lying under oath about sex in reality was about an elected official using his office to step on the rights of a state employee (Paula Jones).

If that were a republican the democrats would have their torches lit and set to kill.

Your guy set the bar in Washington. If anyone that I vote for stoops to that level I won't vote for them ever again.

"THE LIE" was the end of the witch hunt and was totally unrelated to the purpose of the witch hunt. It was the ONE thing they could nail him on after all the bullshit they dragged this country through. And we all know that Star already knew the truth before he asked that question. It was clearly a set up.

Isn't it ironic that after they nailed him on "THE LIE" the republican party was able to stand down? They had done their work. Isn't it odd that there were no more scandals to follow? They had justified their attempted coup detat to the American people. There was no need to beat a dead horse any further.

What a bunch of phonies.

I've never defended Clinton's behavior or his lie. But I have never seen one republican or "conservative" admit on this board that the republican congress abused it's constitutional powers in order to undermine the Clinton presidency for their party's political gain.

When a democrat president was in office this republican congress exercised a perverse over-reaching of their oversight duties (over a thousand subpeonas) to disable our government for their own political benefit; mostly focused on issues that occurred prior to the presidency or that had no real bearing on issues important to the peace, prosperity, or integrity of our country.

On the other hand, while a republican president has been in office and has appeared to subvert the constitution, lie to the public, and undermine our freedoms, the very same congress has refused to do it's job (zero subpeonas) at a time when it appears that it is needed most.

There is a huge difference in a president's personal conduct versus a president's official conduct. Unfortunately, republicans are so corrupted by their own power that they were willing to make mountains out of molehills during Clinton's presidency while later ignoring major abuses of governmental power during Bush's presidency; both at the country's expense.

[mlyonsd]

"THE LIE" was the end of the witch hunt and was totally unrelated to the purpose of the witch hunt. It was the ONE thing they could nail him on after all the bullshit they dragged this country through. And we all know that Star already knew the truth before he asked that question. It was clearly a set up.

Isn't it ironic that after they nailed him on "THE LIE" the republican party was able to stand down? They had done their work. Isn't it odd that there were no more scandals to follow? They had justified their attempted coup detat to the American people. There was no need to beat a dead horse any further.

What a bunch of phonies.

I've never defended Clinton's behavior or his lie. But I have never seen one republican or "conservative" admit on this board that the republican congress abused it's constitutional powers in order to undermine the Clinton presidency for their party's political gain.

When a democrat president was in office this republican congress exercised a perverse over-reaching of their oversight duties (over a thousand subpeonas) to disable our government for their own political benefit; mostly focused on issues that occurred prior to the presidency or that had no real bearing on issues important to the peace, prosperity, or integrity of our country.

On the other hand, while a republican president has been in office and has appeared to subvert the constitution, lie to the public, and undermine our freedoms, the very same congress has refused to do it's job (zero subpeonas) at time when it appears that is needed most.

There is a huge difference in a president's personal conduct versus a president's official conduct. Unfortunately, republicans are so corrupted by their own power that they were willing to make mountains out of molehills during Clinton's presidency while later ignoring major abuses of governmental power during Bush's presidency; both at the country's expense.

Too funny. If your guy Clinton would have stood up and admitted his offenses guys like me would have forgotten it by now and let his wife determine his legacy.

As it is Clinton deliberatly lied under oath....let me repeat, he LIED UNDER OATH.

And for that he deserves the scumbag label and perpetual jokes for the rest of his life.

Now to Bush. I would think your assertions that he is subverting the constitution would be easily proven. I do believe he is doing everything in his power to protect the population. Different motives, different times.

[penchief]

Too funny. If your guy Clinton would have stood up and admitted his offenses guys like me would have forgotten it by now and let his wife determine his legacy.

As it is Clinton deliberatly lied under oath....let me repeat, he LIED UNDER OATH.

And for that he deserves the scumbag label and perpetual jokes for the rest of his life.

Now to Bush. I would think your assertions that he is subverting the constitution would be easily proven. I do believe he is doing everything in his power to protect the population. Different motives, different times.

But what you and some others seem to forget is that this administration's overt failures have nothing to do with Clinton. Why, when the Bush Administration's ideologically inspired blunders are at issue, do Bush apologists always resort to deflecting to Clinton?

The "I know you are but what am I" defense isn't going to cut it, IMO.

The republican party was wrong for their partisan witch hunt of Clinton. It was politically motivated from the beginning and it was enabled by a partisan lock-step congress. It did a disservice to our country and to what it is that we offer the rest of the world.

But, back to Bush.......

[nomad]

Can't you guys ever get over Clinton? You had him for 8 years, now he's gone.

I suspect that 6 years after GWB has moved on, this nation will look back a wish that a lie about a blow job in the Oval Office was the most damning thing that he had done in HIS 8 years of "service to the people".

[stevieray]

Too funny. If your guy Clinton would have stood up and admitted his offenses guys like me would have forgotten it by now and let his wife determine his legacy.

As it is Clinton deliberatly lied under oath....let me repeat, he LIED UNDER OATH.

And for that he deserves the scumbag label and perpetual jokes for the rest of his life.

Now to Bush. I would think your assertions that he is subverting the constitution would be easily proven. I do believe he is doing everything in his power to protect the population. Different motives, different times.

witch hunt...LOL

taxpayers money was wasted on an investigation, when all the guy had to do was admit the affair. he tainted his own legacy through his own inequities.

[penchief]

witch hunt...LOL

taxpayers money was wasted on an investigation, when all the guy had to do was admit the affair. he tainted his own legacy through his own inequities.

I think Clinton's legacy is appropriately tainted. And I don't have a problem with that. But I still haven't seen one republican admit that the republican congress abused their powers of oversight for petty political ends. They hurt this country by doing so. Our government still functions within that poisoned environment.

Yet, here we are with all the gross abuses of governmental power by the Bush administration and the republican congress hasn't lifted a finger to exercise their constitutional duty. How does someone like yourself shrug off such blatant hypocricy?

I don't know why it is that you can't recognize the difference between "THE LIE" and all those petty and fruitless investigations (thisgate and thatgate) that came long before "THE LIE." Even more amazingly, I can't understand how some people seem incapable of making the distinction between that which is hardly relevant to the conduct of our government and that which is highly relevant.

I hope republicans get swept out of office in both houses. They've made a mockery of the institution. They deserve whatever they get and then some. They share equal blame with the White House for this country's predicament. The issue is not Clinton. The issue is the era of unaccountability ushered in by a lock-step republican party.

[patteeu]

I think Clinton's legacy is appropriately tainted. And I don't have a problem with that. But I still haven't seen one republican admit that the republican congress abused their powers of oversight for petty political ends. They hurt this country by doing so. Our government still functions within that poisoned environment.

Yet, here we are with all the gross abuses of governmental power by the Bush administration and the republican congress hasn't lifted a finger to exercise their constitutional duty. How does someone like yourself shrug off such blatant hypocricy?

I don't know why it is that you can't recognize the difference between "THE LIE" and all those petty and fruitless investigations (thisgate and thatgate) that came long before "THE LIE." Even more amazingly, I can't understand how some people seem incapable of making the distinction between that which is hardly relevant to the conduct of our government and that which is highly relevant.

I hope republicans get swept out of office in both houses. They've made a mockery of the institution. They deserve whatever they get and then some. They share equal blame with the White House for this country's predicament. The issue is not Clinton. The issue is the era of unaccountability ushered in by a lock-step republican party.

I suppose, based on what you wrote here, that the "poisoned atmosphere" that still exists is only on the Republican side. We don't have any demagogues on the left trying to turn political disputes into "abuse of power" or "unaccountability."

The difference between Clinton and Bush is that Clinton put himself ahead of the country and tried to use the power of his office for his own personal gain. Bush, on the other hand, has been pushing the envelope of his power in an effort to benefit the country. You and other democrats might not like his approach, but that's a political argument. The Congress and SCOTUS are in place to check the power of the Presidency if he should overstep his bounds, just as we have checks and balances on Congress when they try to pass unconstitutional laws or on courts who depart from the framework of the constitution when they rule on cases. All this hyperventilating about "lock-step republican party" and "gross abuses of political power" is hogwash. If you don't like the way things are going, vote the guys you don't like out of office and the guys you do like, in. It's the American way. The democrats should stop trying to turn political disputes into scandal and illegality and start trying to effect change the American way.

[penchief]

I suppose, based on what you wrote here, that the "poisoned atmosphere" that still exists is only on the Republican side. We don't have any demagogues on the left trying to turn political disputes into "abuse of power" or "unaccountability."

The difference between Clinton and Bush is that Clinton put himself ahead of the country and tried to use the power of his office for his own personal gain. Bush, on the other hand, has been pushing the envelope of his power in an effort to benefit the country. You and other democrats might not like his approach, but that's a political argument. The Congress and SCOTUS are in place to check the power of the Presidency if he should overstep his bounds, just as we have checks and balances on Congress when they try to pass unconstitutional laws or on courts who depart from the framework of the constitution when they rule on cases. All this hyperventilating about "lock-step republican party" and "gross abuses of political power" is hogwash. If you don't like the way things are going, vote the guys you don't like out of office and the guys you do like, in. It's the American way. The democrats should stop trying to turn political disputes into scandal and illegality and start trying to effect change the American way.

It's never been this bad. I think it sucks that one of the absolutes that "conservatives" love to flout is their belief that there are no distinctions.

Sure, partisanship has always existed. But it's never been this bad. And the party that controls everything has promoted and benefited from that partisanship. They've perfected smear campaigns. They've perfected the manipulation of single-issue voters. And they've perfected double-speak.

The only thing more absurd than John Kerry dressing up in duck hunting gear to appeal to voters was Dick Cheney, Andy Card, and Karen Hughes doing the same in an attempt to mock Kerry. Think about it. That may not be the nastiest or dirtiest thing anyone ever did but it says a lot about their mentality two days before the election. I thought the adults were running the country. The pettiness and mean-spiritedness of such a "relevant" personal attack is EXACTLY what these people are all about. Belittling and degrading their opponents is their strategy. Mockery, derision, and character assassination are their tools of choice.

You're argument for these powers being abused before would be more acceptible if it weren't for the fact that the Bush Administration conducts all of it's business this way and has done so since day one. Deception and subversion is how they do it. It doesn't matter if it's campaigning or governing, domestic or foreign policy. Just look at their track-record.

Democrats are pussies. They haven't gone to the lengths republicans consistenly will. Republicans are win at all costs.

As far as those lack of distinctions go................some people would like us to believe that Monicagate is on a par with Watergate and Iran-Contra. Which it clearly is not. The latter two were huge abuses of governmental power. This administration has changed our policy from one of enlightenment to one of aggressive war, torture, domestic spying, and the evolving suspension of our civil liberties in this country. But we may never know just how crooked this administration has been in imposing those changes until the congress is willing to assert it's constitutional duty. Fortunately, that may be about to happen. We can only hope. They're wouldn't be anything wrong with a little oversight, would there?

Like my Grandma used to say, "republicans make the messes and democrats have to clean them up." It looks like that might be true again.

[Frankie]

Olbermann was a half-assed talking head on ESPN and he is even worse on MS"snooze"NBC. I have watched many of his shows to see if he gets any better and he is nothing more than a TV version of Randi Rhodes or Stuart Smiley. I await the day he gets fired for pontificating his ignoramous comments on the air. he will screw up, it's only a matter of time. And, if it means that he and mememymymimi both meet in a Gitmo cell - I'll pay the airfare.
It's interesting how Randi Rhodes, Al Franken and Keith Olbermann are vilified by the side whose opinions are shaped by Rush Limbaugh, Sean Hannity, Bill O'Reily, Ann Coulter, and Savage.

[patteeu]

It's never been this bad. I think it sucks that one of the absolutes that "conservatives" love to flout is their belief that there are no distinctions.

Sure, partisanship has always existed. But it's never been this bad. And the party that controls everything has promoted and benefited from that partisanship. They've perfected smear campaigns. They've perfected the manipulation of single-issue voters. And they've perfected double-speak.

The only thing more absurd than John Kerry dressing up in duck hunting gear to appeal to voters was Dick Cheney, Andy Card, and Karen Hughes doing the same in an attempt to mock Kerry. Think about it. That may not be the nastiest or dirtiest thing anyone ever did but it says a lot about their mentality two days before the election. I thought the adults were running the country. The pettiness and mean-spiritedness of such a "relevant" personal attack is EXACTLY what these people are all about. Belittling and degrading their opponents is their strategy. Mockery, derision, and character assassination are their tools of choice.

You're argument for these powers being abused before would be more acceptible if it weren't for the fact that the Bush Administration conducts all of it's business this way and has done so since day one. Deception and subversion is how they do it. It doesn't matter if it's campaigning or governing, domestic or foreign policy. Just look at their track-record.

Democrats are pussies. They haven't gone to the lengths republicans consistenly will. Republicans are win at all costs.

As far as those lack of distinctions go................some people would like us to believe that Monicagate is on a par with Watergate and Iran-Contra. Which it clearly is not. The latter two were huge abuses of governmental power. This administration has changed our policy from one of enlightenment to one of aggressive war, torture, domestic spying, and the evolving suspension of our civil liberties in this country. But we may never know just how crooked this administration has been in imposing those changes until the congress is willing to assert it's constitutional duty. Fortunately, that may be about to happen. We can only hope. They're wouldn't be anything wrong with a little oversight, would there?

Like my Grandma used to say, "republicans make the messes and democrats have to clean them up." It looks like that might be true again.

That's weird, from my perspective it's the democrats who have rejected the gestures of bipartisanship from George W. Bush and have decided that it serves their interests to maintain a highly partisan atmosphere.

This administration has changed our policy from one of subordination to globalist institutions, appeasement of tyrants, and kick-the-can-down-the-road issue avoidance to one that aggressively asserts American interests and works for real solutions to politically difficult problems.

[PunkinDrublic]

It's never been this bad. I think it sucks that one of the absolutes that "conservatives" love to flout is their belief that there are no distinctions.

Sure, partisanship has always existed. But it's never been this bad. And the party that controls everything has promoted and benefited from that partisanship. They've perfected smear campaigns. They've perfected the manipulation of single-issue voters. And they've perfected double-speak.

The only thing more absurd than John Kerry dressing up in duck hunting gear to appeal to voters was Dick Cheney, Andy Card, and Karen Hughes doing the same in an attempt to mock Kerry. Think about it. That may not be the nastiest or dirtiest thing anyone ever did but it says a lot about their mentality two days before the election. I thought the adults were running the country. The pettiness and mean-spiritedness of such a "relevant" personal attack is EXACTLY what these people are all about. Belittling and degrading their opponents is their strategy. Mockery, derision, and character assassination are their tools of choice.

You're argument for these powers being abused before would be more acceptible if it weren't for the fact that the Bush Administration conducts all of it's business this way and has done so since day one. Deception and subversion is how they do it. It doesn't matter if it's campaigning or governing, domestic or foreign policy. Just look at their track-record.

Democrats are pussies. They haven't gone to the lengths republicans consistenly will. Republicans are win at all costs.

As far as those lack of distinctions go................some people would like us to believe that Monicagate is on a par with Watergate and Iran-Contra. Which it clearly is not. The latter two were huge abuses of governmental power. This administration has changed our policy from one of enlightenment to one of aggressive war, torture, domestic spying, and the evolving suspension of our civil liberties in this country. But we may never know just how crooked this administration has been in imposing those changes until the congress is willing to assert it's constitutional duty. Fortunately, that may be about to happen. We can only hope. They're wouldn't be anything wrong with a little oversight, would there?

Like my Grandma used to say, "republicans make the messes and democrats have to clean them up." It looks like that might be true again.

Penchief, I think it's counterproductive to pretend Democrats have some sort of moral high ground. If God forbid we ever get another Neocon facist like Bush in office, I would hope the Dems in office would abuse their powers in any way they could to get him out of office or not allow him to illegally invade other countries. Seriously do you think the Karl Roves on the right are just going to stop their dirty tactics? If there's anything I've learned from these last two elections it's that dirty politics win election. I think Dems need to do anything it takes to win elections.

[penchief]

Penchief, I think it's counterproductive to pretend Democrats have some sort of moral high ground. If God forbid we ever get another Neocon facist like Bush in office, I would hope the Dems in office would abuse their powers in any way they could to get him out of office or not allow him to illegally invade other countries. Seriously do you think the Karl Roves on the right are just going to stop their dirty tactics? If there's anything I've learned from these last two elections it's that dirty politics win election. I think Dems need to do anything it takes to win elections.

I know what you're saying. And I don't pretend that it's just one party. I know that it permeates both. However, to suggest that the extreme measures republicans have resorted to in the last 20 years have been no different than democrats would be inaccurate. I won't say it. And I'm not afraid to say that republicans have been a hell of a lot worse.

Democrats are pussies. They don't obsess over total control and revenge the way republicans do. Republican benefactors like to use their wealth to buy legislation and consolodate their influence while democrats are inherently pussies. Democrats like to break things down and explain their positions. Republicans like to fuch you up.

I know it's not going to be easy for the next democrat president. Clinton didn't deserve what he got but that's what will happen when the power-quo wants its way. My only hope is that the liberty-minded people of this country are finally being roused from their overextended hibernation.

[bunnytrdr]

Anyone wanna lay odds that, if Bush had rushed in and took command of the situation post-Katrina, Olbie and his ilk would have solemnly shook their heads and mourned the fatal poisoning of posse comitatus, that wellspring of protection from which all essential liberties flow.KO impersonation on/Ahem, "You sir, have singlehandedly undermined the very blanket of the constitution with which we clothe ourselves by throwing out posse comitatus.

You sir, are an intellectual abomination the likes with which this country may very well never see again, because, you sir, have went to great breadth and depth lengths to see to it that its very underpinnings have been unpinned." KO off/

Now I now what O'reilly means when he says, "No Bloviating".

[CRONUS]

Anyone wanna lay odds that, if Bush had rushed in and took command of the situation post-Katrina, Olbie and his ilk would have solemnly shook their heads and mourned the fatal poisoning of posse comitatus, that wellspring of protection from which all essential liberties flow.

No one yelled about Posse Comitatus when Bush and Fema rushed into San Diego county post the fires to provide aid and shelter, but then again those folks were middle class and upper class who were receiving the aid.

[Adept Havelock]

Now I now what O'reilly means when he says, "No Bloviating".

ROFL LMAO

Having the Falafel/Loofah guy condemn Bloviating is no different from having Mark Foley denouncing sexual predators.

[Boyceofsummer]

may end up being more important than 9-11.

[HC_Chief]

may end up being more important than 9-11.

You're a f*cking idiot. Go suck a tailpipe. 4321

[Dave Lane]

may end up being more important than 9-11.

It certainly could save more lives than were lost on 9/11

Dave