PDA

View Full Version : So I was watching Cold Pizza.....Some Gonzalez news


Mecca
10-23-2006, 08:57 AM
This guy on there covering the NFL said he spoke to Tom Condon and they want a deal that makes the highest paid TE in history.......if the Chiefs give him a deal like that it will be really stupid at his age.

Extra Point
10-23-2006, 09:04 AM
Put TG in for kick returns. That way, he'd be the highest paid!

Iowanian
10-23-2006, 09:04 AM
I love 88 being a Chief and am thankful for his play here in his career. If he really wants that deal, at his age, they should let him go.

He's Carl's pet, and will get his greenbacks in a move that will be the exact opposite of anything you'd ever see from New England.

FAX
10-23-2006, 09:08 AM
Somewhat lost in all the media poopla is the play of TG yesterday. He was, in large measure, responsible for the win. Those catches on the last drive were money.

And that kind of performance costs money. I've always believed that it's difficult to catch passes while you're blocking. Plus, it helps if you throw him the ball.

FAX

jspchief
10-23-2006, 09:10 AM
If he plays out the rest of the season like he played yesterday, then give him the contract.

If he plays out the rest of the season like he's played most of the last two years, laugh at the "highest paid TE" suggestion and wave goodbye.

Mecca
10-23-2006, 09:12 AM
Somewhat lost in all the media poopla is the play of TG yesterday. He was, in large measure, responsible for the win. Those catches on the last drive were money.

And that kind of performance costs money. I've always believed that it's difficult to catch passes while you're blocking. Plus, it helps if you throw him the ball.

FAX

Yea they were showing the highlights of it and he brought up the Condon thing, then added on "He's been used mostly to block but some more days like yesterday will help him get that deal."

FAX
10-23-2006, 09:17 AM
Yea they were showing the highlights of it and he brought up the Condon thing, then added on "He's been used mostly to block but some more days like yesterday will help him get that deal."

I missed that show. But, I haven't really ever understood the "trade Tony" talk, Mr. Mecca. If you don't use him as a receiver, he will not receive. The value/compensation question is, therefore, moot.

It's like complaining that your wife doesn't perform oral sex anymore after her decapitation by the strange neighbors across the street.

FAX

Mecca
10-23-2006, 09:18 AM
I missed that show. But, I haven't really ever understood the "trade Tony" talk, Mr. Mecca. If you don't use him as a receiver, he will not receive. The value/compensation question is, therefore, moot.

It's like complaining that your wife doesn't perform oral sex anymore after her decapitation by the strange neighbors across the street.

FAX

Well I don't say "trade" him. He's in the last year of his contract and I just don't think it's smart to give 30 year old players who obviously look to be past their best days big contracts.

stevieray
10-23-2006, 09:21 AM
Well I don't say "trade" him. He's in the last year of his contract and I just don't think it's smart to give 30 year old players who obviously look to be past their best days big contracts.

yup, yesterday is proof he's past his prime.

FAX
10-23-2006, 09:26 AM
Well I don't say "trade" him. He's in the last year of his contract and I just don't think it's smart to give 30 year old players who obviously look to be past their best days big contracts.

I see your point. Well made.

I'm unsure if his best days are behind him. They probably are. But, experience counts for something as well. They're the same arguments that were used during our unfortunate kidney removal.

I guess the important thing at this point is to find ways to get him the ball so that we can determine if he's worth a new contract and what the value of that contract should be. Unfortunately, as DV used to say, "There's only one ball." And, Herm seems determined to keep his ball in LJ's hands as much as possible.

FAX

jspchief
10-23-2006, 09:26 AM
yup, yesterday is proof he's past his prime.Yesterday isn't proof of anything. It may expose SD's safeties as not being very good, it may show that TG still has it, or it may show that Marty did a poor job scheming for a guy that he should recognize as a threat.

It was one game. It doesn't erase that over the last two years Tony Gonzalez hasn't been the best TE in football, so expecting to be paid like it is assinine.

Like I said, if he can do that all year, I'll be convinced that he still has it. But recent history makes me think that he won't play near that level over the entire season.

Mecca
10-23-2006, 09:28 AM
yup, yesterday is proof he's past his prime.

After the last couple of years......yesterday looks more like the abberation than the rule.

It's just a given fact, other than a QB or an offensive lineman players past the age of 30 tend to drop off dramatically, so you shouldn't be giving them huge deals. Take the Eagles for example they do not pay players who get old.

Mecca
10-23-2006, 09:29 AM
I see your point. Well made.

I'm unsure if his best days are behind him. They probably are. But, experience counts for something as well. They're the same arguments that were used during our unfortunate kidney removal.

I guess the important thing at this point is to find ways to get him the ball so that we can determine if he's worth a new contract and what the value of that contract should be. Unfortunately, as DV used to say, "There's only one ball." And, Herm seems determined to keep his ball in LJ's hands as much as possible.

FAX

If he wants to stay for reasonable money, by all means keep him. But if he thinks he should be the highest paid TE and that's it then they should say bye to him.

FAX
10-23-2006, 09:33 AM
If he wants to stay for reasonable money, by all means keep him. But if he thinks he should be the highest paid TE and that's it then they should say bye to him.

How much money would that be, Mr. Mecca? I mean, who is the most highly compensated TE now and what are they paid?

FAX

JimNasium
10-23-2006, 09:36 AM
They will find a way to make this happen. Most likely with a long term deal that is heavily backloaded.

Mecca
10-23-2006, 09:37 AM
How much money would that be, Mr. Mecca? I mean, who is the most highly compensated TE now and what are they paid?

FAX

Vernon Davis is the highest paid because of where he got drafted.......he got an insane deal something like 20 mill guarenteed.....hold on let me see if I can find the info.

Simplex3
10-23-2006, 09:38 AM
TEs doing better than Gonzo this year:

Colston
Gates
Crumpler
Heap
LJ Smith
Winslow (damnit)
Shockey
Clark (IND)
Cooley
Daniels (HOU)

TEs doing about as well:
Miller
Clark (CHI)
Smith (TB)
Baker

Historically in the NFL even the best TEs start sucking on their 30th b-day. It's obvious that TE isn't exactly thin around the NFL. The Chiefs already have cap issues and may have to choose between Gonzo and LJ.

See ya Tony. Thanks, and don't let the door hit you in the ass on your way out.

Chiefnj
10-23-2006, 09:38 AM
I don't want to see Tony go elsewhere. If the Chiefs were like the Pats or Eagles or even the Steelers, teams that tend to be able to replace departed players and still play well, I'd be more inclined to say let him walk. But the Chiefs draft history and free agent history makes me wonder how many years it would take to replace Tony's production - via another TE or even WR.

This is the first year since DT and Neil Smith that the Chiefs have a decent set of bookends to rush the QB. This is the first year the Chiefs have decent corners since Hasty and Carter left (and the corners are expensive trades/free agents). The Chiefs have been trying to replace McGlockton and Williams for ages and still haven't done so.

I'd hate to see TG let go and then have the money and possibly draft picks go to waste. There already seem to be some big holes that need improving other than TE.

Mecca
10-23-2006, 09:39 AM
Ok found it........

An all-night negotiating session between the San Francisco 49ers and the agents for first-round choice Vernon Davis was rewarded with Davis making his first practice and the former Maryland star becoming the highest-paid tight end in the league. Davis signed a five-year deal Friday morning worth in excess of $23 million and possibly close to around $25 million. His deal tops those of Giants tight end Jeremy Shockey, the Chiefs' Tony Gonzalez, Raven Todd Heap, the Cowboys' Jason Witten and the Falcons' Alge Crumpler. They make between $4.14 million and $4.5 million a year.
Included in the deal is $15.45 million in guarantees. The contract is roughly 41 percent better than the slot for the No. 6 pick last season.

Chiefnj
10-23-2006, 09:40 AM
TEs doing better than Gonzo this year:

Colston
Gates
Crumpler
Heap
LJ Smith
Winslow (damnit)
Shockey
Clark (IND)
Cooley
Daniels (HOU)

TEs doing about as well:
Miller
Clark (CHI)
Smith (TB)
Baker

Historically in the NFL even the best TEs start sucking on their 30th b-day. It's obvious that TE isn't exactly thin around the NFL. The Chiefs already have cap issues and may have to choose between Gonzo and LJ.

See ya Tony. Thanks, and don't let the door hit you in the ass on your way out.

I guess blocking doesn't factor into your equation.

stevieray
10-23-2006, 09:40 AM
Yesterday isn't proof of anything. It may expose SD's safeties as not being very good, it may show that TG still has it, or it may show that Marty did a poor job scheming for a guy that he should recognize as a threat.

It was one game. It doesn't erase that over the last two years Tony Gonzalez hasn't been the best TE in football, so expecting to be paid like it is assinine.

Like I said, if he can do that all year, I'll be convinced that he still has it. But recent history makes me think that he won't play near that level over the entire season.

I was being sarcastic. I don't care about who is the best TE in the league, all I care about is his value to this team...gonzales has and is a big part of our success....do you honestly think that someone else wouldn't be willing to pay for his services?

I can't relate to throwing a guy under the bus, especially when he has done so much for the team.

Simplex3
10-23-2006, 09:41 AM
I don't want to see Tony go elsewhere. If the Chiefs were like the Pats or Eagles or even the Steelers, teams that tend to be able to replace departed players and still play well, I'd be more inclined to say let him walk. But the Chiefs draft history and free agent history makes me wonder how many years it would take to replace Tony's production - via another TE or even WR.
I hate to validate DV here, but Sasquatch Wilson looked pretty damn good yesterday. I'd be interrested in seeing him get more time, you know, in relief of TG.

Mecca
10-23-2006, 09:41 AM
I don't want to see Tony go elsewhere. If the Chiefs were like the Pats or Eagles or even the Steelers, teams that tend to be able to replace departed players and still play well, I'd be more inclined to say let him walk. But the Chiefs draft history and free agent history makes me wonder how many years it would take to replace Tony's production - via another TE or even WR.

This is the first year since DT and Neil Smith that the Chiefs have a decent set of bookends to rush the QB. This is the first year the Chiefs have decent corners since Hasty and Carter left (and the corners are expensive trades/free agents). The Chiefs have been trying to replace McGlockton and Williams for ages and still haven't done so.

I'd hate to see TG let go and then have the money and possibly draft picks go to waste. There already seem to be some big holes that need improving other than TE.

It's alot easier to get TE talent now than it was when we picked Gonzalez...the TE's who go high like Vernon Davis have unbelievable physical talent. The position as a whole is alot better now.

JimNasium
10-23-2006, 09:42 AM
I can't relate to throwing a guy under the bus, especially when he has done so much for the team.
It's pretty typical here. Always has been but seems to be even more prevalent as of late.

DaWolf
10-23-2006, 09:43 AM
Carl can easily find a way to give Gonzo a contract that LOOKS like the highest paying contract a TE has ever gotten and yet be structured in a way that it doesn't really affect our cap situation. We'll just have to see whether Carl prefers to work or go on vacations this offseason...

Mecca
10-23-2006, 09:44 AM
I was being sarcastic. I don't care about who is the best TE in the league, all I care about is his value to this team...gonzales has and is a big part of our success....do you honestly think that someone else wouldn't be willing to pay for his services?

I can't relate to throwing a guy under the bus, especially when he has done so much for the team.

I don't think anyone is throwing him under the bus. We just don't think it's a financially sound idea to make him the highest paid TE. I don't think anyone would pay him that way on the open market either.....investing tons of money and huge contracts in aging players is a bad idea in the cap era.

Simplex3
10-23-2006, 09:44 AM
I guess blocking doesn't factor into your equation.
Are you high? 90% of those guys block. Hell, Dunn's blocking is far better than TG's, so maybe we should pony up huge bucks to him?

I don't understand this loyalty to players. TG's agent is basically coming out and saying TG doesn't give a f**k about the Chiefs when comparing that to his desire to make a buck, yet you continue to swing from his nuts. Good God man, check into an abused fan shelter.

stevieray
10-23-2006, 09:45 AM
It's pretty typical here. Always has been but seems to be even more prevalent as of late.

weird, considering he has stated he wants ot play his whole career for one team., something that is almost unheard of nowadays.

Mecca
10-23-2006, 09:46 AM
Are you high? 90% of those guys block. Hell, Dunn's blocking is far better than TG's, so maybe we should pony up huge bucks to him?

I don't understand this loyalty to players. TG's agent is basically coming out and saying TG doesn't give a f**k about the Chiefs when comparing that to his desire to make a buck, yet you continue to swing from his nuts. Good God man, check into an abused fan shelter.

Personally when I think players start approaching 30 as a team you should look at that player and decide of you think he's declining or not. If you feel that he is and he asks for a rediculous contract and won't accept less than as an organization it's best to move on without him....

This right now sounds like the Gonzalez situation to me.

Simplex3
10-23-2006, 09:46 AM
weird, considering he has stated he wants ot play his whole career for one team., something that is almost unheard of nowadays.
Sure, as long as that doesn't get in his way of getting PAID. Awefully big of him to want to stay here as long as we pay him more than anyone else will.

FAX
10-23-2006, 09:47 AM
Ok found it........

An all-night negotiating session between the San Francisco 49ers and the agents for first-round choice Vernon Davis was rewarded with Davis making his first practice and the former Maryland star becoming the highest-paid tight end in the league. Davis signed a five-year deal Friday morning worth in excess of $23 million and possibly close to around $25 million. His deal tops those of Giants tight end Jeremy Shockey, the Chiefs' Tony Gonzalez, Raven Todd Heap, the Cowboys' Jason Witten and the Falcons' Alge Crumpler. They make between $4.14 million and $4.5 million a year. Included in the deal is $15.45 million in guarantees. The contract is roughly 41 percent better than the slot for the No. 6 pick last season.

Dang. Ok. I'm convinced. TG does not need to be the highest paid TE in the league. That kind of money is crazy nuts. Mr. Rain Man kind of money. I'm not sure TG would even ask for that.

As for the posts comparing TG with other TE production this year, I think he's been a little occupied at the line of scrimmage trying to keep our tackles from killing another one of our QBs. As a result, we may be comparing apples to armored cars.

FAX

stevieray
10-23-2006, 09:47 AM
I don't think anyone is throwing him under the bus. We just don't think it's a financially sound idea to make him the highest paid TE. I don't think anyone would pay him that way on the open market either.....investing tons of money and huge contracts in aging players is a bad idea in the cap era.

please, you'd throw the whole team under the bus, if you thought it would solidify your presence here.

big contracts for aging players? no, that never happens. ever... :rolleyes:

jspchief
10-23-2006, 09:49 AM
I was being sarcastic. I don't care about who is the best TE in the league, all I care about is his value to this team...gonzales has and is a big part of our success....do you honestly think that someone else wouldn't be willing to pay for his services?

I can't relate to throwing a guy under the bus, especially when he has done so much for the team.Sure I think someone else will be willing to pay for his services. Someone is almost always willing to overpay to bring in a past-his-prime player to fill a need. And I'll agree that Gonzo has been a huge compliment to this team. He's the reason we can get away with having average WRs.

But he no longer gives us what he once did. Whether it be because he's old or he's too busy in blocking, it doesn't change that his value to this team isn't what it once was.

Not wanting to overpay him is "throwing him under the bus"? Why would we pay him like the best TE in the game, when he isn't the best TE in the game? For loyalty? The same loyalty that's going to cause him to ask for more than he's worth in contract negotiations?

Chiefnj
10-23-2006, 09:49 AM
It's alot easier to get TE talent now than it was when we picked Gonzalez...the TE's who go high like Vernon Davis have unbelievable physical talent. The position as a whole is alot better now.

You use Davis as an example when he is just as expensive as TG and required a first round pick, but is yet unproven. Why not keep the proven player?

Mecca
10-23-2006, 09:49 AM
please, you'd throw the whole team under the bus, if you thought it would solidify your presence here.

big contracts for aging players? no, that never happens. ever... :rolleyes:

It happens, but it isn't sound.......the Eagles should be the model for how to run the cap. They're always under, replace their aging players, keep their team young. The Eagles are probably the most cap savvy team in the league.

Simplex3
10-23-2006, 09:50 AM
please, you'd throw the whole team under the bus, if you thought it would solidify your presence here.

big contracts for aging players? no, that never happens. ever... :rolleyes:
I don't recall many Super Bowl teams going that route, however. The teams (team?) that win consistently do it by managing their money and not blowing wads on guys in the decline.

Mecca
10-23-2006, 09:50 AM
You use Davis as an example when he is just as expensive as TG and required a first round pick, but is yet unproven. Why not keep the proven player?

Because he's 22 and Gonzalez is 30.......Davis should only get better while after seeing Gonzalez the last few years he looks like he's declining from his best days.

Simplex3
10-23-2006, 09:52 AM
It happens, but it isn't sound.......the Eagles should be the model for how to run the cap. They're always under, replace their aging players, keep their team young. The Eagles are probably the most cap savvy team in the league.
Wasn't the deal McNabb signed a few years back flat? Every year paid the same amount, basically making him cheaper every year in % of cap space? Pretty damn smart if you ask me.

Chiefnj
10-23-2006, 09:52 AM
Are you high? 90% of those guys block. Hell, Dunn's blocking is far better than TG's, so maybe we should pony up huge bucks to him?

I don't understand this loyalty to players. TG's agent is basically coming out and saying TG doesn't give a f**k about the Chiefs when comparing that to his desire to make a buck, yet you continue to swing from his nuts. Good God man, check into an abused fan shelter.

You provided a list of players that you thought were doing better than TG this year. What was that list based on - receptions, TD's, yards?

How many of those TE's are in the same situation as TG? Did those teams lose both starting tackles and their QB so that they are asked to stay in and block the majority of time? Do those teams have receivers that draw double teams and open up the TE, or does their TE draw double coverage like TG does because the receivers aren't respected?

Mecca
10-23-2006, 09:53 AM
I don't recall many Super Bowl teams going that route, however. The teams (team?) that win consistently do it by managing their money and not blowing wads on guys in the decline.

The Raiders did and then they imploded.......

Running the cap like the Eagles do is likely to piss fans off because when your favorite player starts getting old he's likely going to be out the door. People get attached to players and feel they have loyalty to them. "oh we can't let him go" even though it's probably the best move in the long run.

jspchief
10-23-2006, 09:54 AM
Why not keep the proven player?At what cost?

We don't need a Vernon Davis. Receiving TEs are a lot more plentiful than they were 8 years ago. We may not get another Tony Gonzalez, but do we need another? Would it make more sense to free up a couple million for a #1 WR by signing a cheaper TE?

It's not like stud TE is a key ingredient to getting Lombardi trophies. At some point you have to look at their value in context to the game. Overpaying Gonzalez completely lacks common sense.

siberian khatru
10-23-2006, 09:54 AM
Sure I think someone else will be willing to pay for his services. Someone is almost always willing to overpay to bring in a past-his-prime player to fill a need.

http://www.sportsecyclopedia.com/nfl/washington/Snyderwas.JPG

stevieray
10-23-2006, 09:54 AM
I don't recall many Super Bowl teams going that route, however. The teams (team?) that win consistently do it by managing their money and not blowing wads on guys in the decline.

Decline ...that's hilarious....especially watching him drag three defenders repeatedly yesterday.

Mecca
10-23-2006, 09:55 AM
Wasn't the deal McNabb signed a few years back flat? Every year paid the same amount, basically making him cheaper every year in % of cap space? Pretty damn smart if you ask me.

I think he got a contract like that, they decided he was one of their non expendable guys so he got paid. Hell they paid Brian Dawkins and he's past 30 but he also didn't ask them for a ridiculous contract either. Even they make a few exceptions.

Simplex3
10-23-2006, 09:55 AM
You provided a list of players that you thought were doing better than TG this year. What was that list based on - receptions, TD's, yards?

How many of those TE's are in the same situation as TG? Did those teams lose both starting tackles and their QB so that they are asked to stay in and block the majority of time? Do those teams have receivers that draw double teams and open up the TE, or does their TE draw double coverage like TG does because the receivers aren't respected?
So a team that is already cap-strapped should give this guy a huge payday at the end of his career? It's not a smart move IMO.

I do find it odd that all of the loyalty appolgists on this thread refuse to acknowledge that TG is telling you he's loyal as long as you pay him.

Brock
10-23-2006, 09:55 AM
You're nuts if you think Gonzalez will be going anywhere. He'll finish his career in Chiefs laundry, bank on it.

Chiefnj
10-23-2006, 09:55 AM
Because he's 22 and Gonzalez is 30.......Davis should only get better while after seeing Gonzalez the last few years he looks like he's declining from his best days.

You'd rather have an uproven 22 year old who costs 25 million and a first round pick as opposed to a proven veteran on your team who is 30 years old that costs the same amount and frees up an early draft pick to address another position of need?

Mecca
10-23-2006, 09:56 AM
Decline ...that's hilarious....especially watching him drag three defenders repeatedly yesterday.

Like was said before by me and JSP....After the last 2 years, yesterday looks like the aberration not the rule. You need to evaluate alot more than 1 game to decide if he still has it or not.

stevieray
10-23-2006, 09:56 AM
Sure I think someone else will be willing to pay for his services. Someone is almost always willing to overpay to bring in a past-his-prime player to fill a need. And I'll agree that Gonzo has been a huge compliment to this team. He's the reason we can get away with having average WRs.

But he no longer gives us what he once did. Whether it be because he's old or he's too busy in blocking, it doesn't change that his value to this team isn't what it once was.

Not wanting to overpay him is "throwing him under the bus"? Why would we pay him like the best TE in the game, when he isn't the best TE in the game? For loyalty? The same loyalty that's going to cause him to ask for more than he's worth in contract negotiations?


perception is reality...Lamar determines his worth to this franchise.

Chiefnj
10-23-2006, 09:57 AM
So a team that is already cap-strapped should give this guy a huge payday at the end of his career? It's not a smart move IMO.

I do find it odd that all of the loyalty appolgists on this thread refuse to acknowledge that TG is telling you he's loyal as long as you pay him.

It's a business. Their is no loyalty. I get it. And since when are the Chiefs cash strapped? And since when have the Chiefs shown the ability to regularly be able to replace Pro Bowl caliber players?

stevieray
10-23-2006, 09:58 AM
Like was said before by me and JSP....After the last 2 years, yesterday looks like the aberration not the rule. You need to evaluate alot more than 1 game to decide if he still has it or not.

my reasoning isn't based on just yesterday's game.

Simplex3
10-23-2006, 09:58 AM
You'd rather have an uproven 22 year old who costs 25 million and a first round pick as opposed to a proven veteran on your team who is 30 years old that costs the same amount and frees up an early draft pick to address another position of need?
I'd rather not have either.

jspchief
10-23-2006, 09:58 AM
You'd rather have an uproven 22 year old who costs 25 million and a first round pick as opposed to a proven veteran on your team who is 30 years old that costs the same amount and frees up an early draft pick to address another position of need?At that cost, I'd rather have neither.

If you're arguing that Gonzo is worth more than Davis on the field, you may very well be right. That doesn't change the fact that Gonzo is not worth the money that Vernon Davis is being paid, let alone more.

Mecca
10-23-2006, 09:58 AM
You'd rather have an uproven 22 year old who costs 25 million and a first round pick as opposed to a proven veteran on your team who is 30 years old that costs the same amount and frees up an early draft pick to address another position of need?

I'm not a big fan of paying a TE alot of money in general, especially one that is 30 and past his best days. However if you are asking me if I'd pay Vernon Davis.....probably he's a physical freak and brings things to that position no one else ever has. He has WR speed in a TE body, once in a lifetime type talent. But he's an exception.

My point is I'd rather not pay aging declining players....especially when the Chiefs have alot of holes and an old team already.

Simplex3
10-23-2006, 09:59 AM
It's a business. Their is no loyalty. I get it. And since when are the Chiefs cash strapped? And since when have the Chiefs shown the ability to regularly be able to replace Pro Bowl caliber players?
Since when does a Pro Bowl TE win championships?

cdcox
10-23-2006, 09:59 AM
Carl can easily find a way to give Gonzo a contract that LOOKS like the highest paying contract a TE has ever gotten and yet be structured in a way that it doesn't really affect our cap situation.

Yup.

TG's agent saying he needs to be the best paid TE on a TV show is a negotiating ploy. What else is his agent supposed to say? We can make a strong but fair offer to him without breaking the bank. If TG thinks he can do better than that, then maybe it is time to let him go. But I doubt any other team will give him record-breaking contract.

Mecca
10-23-2006, 10:00 AM
Since when does a Pro Bowl TE win championships?

Basically his arguement is......"We're so shitty at drafting I don't trust the Chiefs to be able to replace him so we should overpay an aging player."

Mr. Laz
10-23-2006, 10:00 AM
gonzo issue is speed to get separation ... not strength.


he's getting covered more and more by linebackers nowadays.

yes, he had a good day yesterday......


should the Chiefs give a 30+ year old player who's lost a step a big contract .... probably not.


will carl give "his boy" a new contract anyway ...... most definitely.

JBucc
10-23-2006, 10:01 AM
Without reading through this entire thread, all you have to do is backload his contract with a bunch of incentives he'll never reach so he can claim "I got a 80 million dollar deal, I'm teh best TE evar!!!" or whatever.

Mecca
10-23-2006, 10:01 AM
gonzo issue is speed to get separation ... not strength.


he's getting covered more and more by linebackers nowadays.

yes, he had a good day yesterday......


should the Chiefs give a 30+ year old player who's lost a step a big contract .... probably not.


will carl give "his boy" a new contract anyway ...... most definitely.

That's pretty much my view to, he's one of Carls good picks he'll probably get what he wants even if it isn't in the teams best interest.

jspchief
10-23-2006, 10:06 AM
perception is reality...Lamar determines his worth to this franchise.Of course he does. I'm pretty sure no one here thinks they actually have a say in the matter.

So think it's OK to overpay for players simply because Lamar wants to?

Chiefnj
10-23-2006, 10:07 AM
Since when does a Pro Bowl TE win championships?

TE was critical in Denver's wins (Sharpe), Baltimore's SB (Sharpe) and even back with Dallas and Novacek. To a lesser degree Brent Jones was important.

Chiefnj
10-23-2006, 10:11 AM
Basically his arguement is......"We're so shitty at drafting I don't trust the Chiefs to be able to replace him so we should overpay an aging player."


Not exactly. My point is that when you have an established player (a future hall of famer perhas) on your team who has excelled in your system, then that player has an enhanced value. The fact that the Chiefs have been horrible at replacing talent is a secondary factor, albeit one that is also very important.

stevieray
10-23-2006, 10:28 AM
Of course he does. I'm pretty sure no one here thinks they actually have a say in the matter.

So think it's OK to overpay for players simply because Lamar wants to?

No, I think only Lamar can determine what is too much, mainly because it's his money.

jspchief
10-23-2006, 10:31 AM
No, I think only Lamar can determine what is too much, mainly because it's his money.So what is your point? 99% of the football discussions on this board are about issues that are completely beyond the control of the fans.

It may always be Lamar's choice, but that doesn't mean every choice he makes is the right one.

stevieray
10-23-2006, 10:40 AM
So what is your point? 99% of the football discussions on this board are about issues that are completely beyond the control of the fans.

It may always be Lamar's choice, but that doesn't mean every choice he makes is the right one.

of cousrse it doesn't, that's not realistic... but it's also unrealistic to claim that only one decison (pay him) is wrong, considering we can't predict the future. Just because some feel that TG is past his prime doesn't make it so.

jspchief
10-23-2006, 10:51 AM
of cousrse it doesn't, that's not realistic... but it's also unrealistic to claim that only one decison (pay him) is wrong, considering we can't predict the future. Just because some feel that TG is past his prime doesn't make it so.Yea, it's called an opinion. None of us can actually predict the future.

IMO, he's not the best TE in the game right now, so shouldn't be paid like the best TE in the game. I have some notable stats that back my opinion up.

Do you think he's the best TE in the game?
Or do you think we should pay him like the best even if he isn't?

Douche Baggins
10-23-2006, 10:53 AM
That big list is somewhat erroneous. Colston is a WR.

Gonzalez is 2nd in yards behind LJ Smith. He's way ahead of Shockey, for instance.

stevieray
10-23-2006, 10:55 AM
Yea, it's called an opinion. None of us can actually predict the future.

IMO, he's not the best TE in the game right now, so shouldn't be paid like the best TE in the game. I have some notable stats that back my opinion up.

Do you think he's the best TE in the game?
Or do you think we should pay him like the best even if he isn't?

I think he's the best TE for this team.

If Lamar determines he's worth that, then so be it. I think sometime we understimate Lamar's understanding of the game and players.

Chieficus
10-23-2006, 10:56 AM
Like was said before by me and JSP....After the last 2 years, yesterday looks like the aberration not the rule. You need to evaluate alot more than 1 game to decide if he still has it or not.

You keep building your argument on the last two years. There is a problem with that...

Of the nine years he was in the league before this year, last year he had his third highest reception count and his fifth highest yardage count. The year before he had his best year in both. Last year he was down in his TD count, but so was the whole team in terms of passing offense.

I think it was Laz who said that he's slowing down and easier to cover... that might be true. But the fact of the matter is, he's still producing, and his numbers over the past two years are among the best for his career.

If you want to solely argue that a TE shouldn't be paid that much, that would be one thing... but to argue:

My point is I'd rather not pay aging declining players....

is an exercise in absurdity....

Douche Baggins
10-23-2006, 10:56 AM
OK, I was wrong. He's third, just behind Smith and Randy McMichael.

He's on pace for 72 catches and 867 yards. If he can hit those numbers, I'd say he's worth a big deal. Maybe not a GIANT one, but a good-sized deal. That's pretty good production, and we'd miss it.

GoHuge
10-23-2006, 10:57 AM
Gonzalez is less than two seasons removed from a 100 reception season. He's played hurt for the last two seasons and is now 100%. He proved yesterday that he can get it done if he's not left in to block. Recheck the stats and you'll find only LJ Smith and McMichael are above TG in recieving yards and it's by 53 yards. Tony is an elite athlete and will not fall off at 30 like some others. Everything he's done throughout his career has been without a true #1 reciever and until Priest Holmes it was running back by committee. Tony is still the best and most complete TE in the NFL. For those of you who have DVR or taped the game go back and look at the anointed Antonio Gate's blocking compared to Tony's. BTW Tony also has more revieving yards than the anointed one that has only played two seasons. If TG gets it done this year pay him.

buddha
10-23-2006, 11:01 AM
Regardless of how he played "yesterday", the Chiefs would be fools to invest that much money in a TE that is on the backside of his playing career. Especially since there are so many other glaring areas of need where the cap dollars should be applied. I'd take another couple of offensive tackles for starters!!!

jspchief
10-23-2006, 11:02 AM
OK, I was wrong. He's third, just behind Smith and Randy McMichael.

He's on pace for 72 catches and 867 yards. If he can hit those numbers, I'd say he's worth a big deal. Maybe not a GIANT one, but a good-sized deal. That's pretty good production, and we'd miss it.Those numbers don't warrant being the highest paid TE in the league, which is what his agent is claiming he expects.

jspchief
10-23-2006, 11:04 AM
I think he's the best TE for this team.

If Lamar determines he's worth that, then so be it. I think sometime we understimate Lamar's understanding of the game and players.So you aren't going to answer the questions I asked?

That's OK, I don't blame you.

stevieray
10-23-2006, 11:14 AM
So you aren't going to answer the questions I asked?

That's OK, I don't blame you.

how so?

How do you determine who is the best? numbers alone? I think there is more to it than that. I'm not consumed with who is the best, just who is the best for us, as I stated. And yes, I think TG is as good as any TE playing.

I aslo said that if Lamar thinks he's worth it, then I'm ok with that.

Demonpenz
10-23-2006, 11:24 AM
We have kris wilson in the wings to be our TE.

htismaqe
10-23-2006, 11:34 AM
His agent says he wants to be the highest-paid TE in the league.

Carl wants everyone to play for league minimum.

Somewhere in between, Gonzales will get a new contract.

PastorMikH
10-23-2006, 11:36 AM
I thought the last contract was supposed to be the biggest contract by any TE in history. Granted it isn't now, but it was. How many biggest contracts in history does he need? (One more I guess)


I have no problem with it IF it has a heavy backloading and incentives. With his age, who knows how long he will continue to play at this level. If he does continue to play at the level he has so far for the life of the contract, he'll be worth what he's paid. If his production drops off in a few years and he retires, we cut our losses.

Wile_E_Coyote
10-23-2006, 11:43 AM
I have not read through the thread, but with the called for increases in the salary cap. Being the highest paid TE as of today's mmoney, might not be that big a deal

Iowanian
10-23-2006, 01:22 PM
I've liked 88 as a Chief, even though he's regularly reported to be a dick off the field.

He's produced.

That said, instead of having the highest paid TE in the league(whom hasn't proven infallible and drops some passes) I'd rather have the WR position improved that much. I wish the Chiefs would make a move to gain draft picks, and use one on a Recieving TE...maybe someone like Chandler.

Hopefully, Gonzo will figure something out with carl that "looks" like it makes him the highest paid TE, but realistically gives him a good signing bonus and back loaded contract he'll never finish.

htismaqe
10-23-2006, 01:25 PM
Gonzo, just like Priest, is smart enough to know that any contract that has length = unfulfillable at his age.

Gonzo will get his contract and it will be structured in a way that doesn't hurt us at all...

PastorMikH
10-23-2006, 01:33 PM
I've liked 88 as a Chief, even though he's regularly reported to be a dick off the field.





Part of that may come from the fact that if he isn't, people would just flat wear him out. The guy can't go anywhere in KC without someone seeing him and then they'd want to bug him. Probably happens a fair bit too when he's out of town. Also, everyone knows he's a star, he's famous, he's rich, etc so I can only imagine how many hands are reached out to him asking for "donations".

Simplex3
10-23-2006, 01:37 PM
That big list is somewhat erroneous. Colston is a WR.

Gonzalez is 2nd in yards behind LJ Smith. He's way ahead of Shockey, for instance.
That list takes yardage and TD's into account. Colston is listed as a TE/WR, which is really what that position is now.

Calcountry
10-23-2006, 02:31 PM
Like was said before by me and JSP....After the last 2 years, yesterday looks like the aberration not the rule. You need to evaluate alot more than 1 game to decide if he still has it or not.You just want the Chiefs to suck, so why should I believe anything you say?

Kicking TG to the curb, may well be the right business decision, but he is one of the Best TE's to play the game PERIOD. I would love to keep him if it didn't mean mortgaging the team.

the Talking Can
10-23-2006, 03:46 PM
You're nuts if you think Gonzalez will be going anywhere. He'll finish his career in Chiefs laundry, bank on it.

there is a .00000000000000000000000000000000000000000001% chance that Carl lets Tony go.....smoke and mirrors in the contract, what ever it takes...Carl's prize draft pick and future hall of famer ain't leaving....