View Full Version : Votes Needed! If the NFL rules against us tomorrow....
01-08-2001, 07:36 PM
Do you think Peterson will still go through with hiring DV if it is going to cost us a 1 and a 4?....I really don't have a feel on this and I have not seen or heard any speculation about it....I like the hiring of DV idea but not for much compensation. If CP were willing to give up a 1 and a 4 I would piss myself...
Please Cast your vote on weather or not you think CP would go ahead with it if it were to cost a 1st rounder...
01-08-2001, 07:40 PM
Not to worry.
Carl Peterson would give up his 1st born child before he gives up a 1st round draft pick.
If the ruling is a 1st rounder, we won't get DV.
01-08-2001, 07:41 PM
I personally think there is no way a reasonable and prudent human being would crazy enough to piss away that kind of compensation for a 64 year old coach but the fact that I have not heard a word saying that he has a plan B scares the hell out of me...
Red and Gold Mania
01-08-2001, 07:42 PM
NO to Dick Vermeil regardless of what the NFL rules. The only thing who will get trully get screwed by this decesion are Cleenex companies.
Hire young and creative assistant/college coach.
Enough of these Peterson's butt kissers.
01-08-2001, 07:43 PM
Carl Peterson and Dick Vermiel are best buds. If they do rule that we must give up a 1st rounder, Carl may not have the balls to tell his best friend that he's not worth that type of compensation.
01-08-2001, 07:43 PM
CP really hates to give up 1st rounders, so I'm going to say he won't in this situation either.
Heck, if Tags rules against us, maybe CP will go after Marvin Lewis, who I'd much rather see in KC over Vermeil.
01-08-2001, 07:44 PM
Doubt very much it will come down to a 1st rounder.
I'm beginning to believe CP had this planned out well in advance. He probably knew when we got the 2 3rd rounders from Wash., they were going to end up in St. Louis.
01-08-2001, 07:45 PM
I don't think CP would do it either. The only picks he'll play around with are the 'extra' ones we picked up from the Marty hiring and the Brenden Stai trade IMO. I think that Tagliabue will tell the Rams to take the 2 3rd rounders or leave them. He can't justify telling the Chiefs to give up more for DV (when compensation isn't even actually required) than they received for Marty (who was under a contract with a compensation clause). It doesn't make sense. Worst case scenario would be the 3rd round picks IMO.
01-08-2001, 07:45 PM
That is exactly what I was thinking and exactly what scares the hell out of me...CP might be afraid of all the crying that would go on his he said he was not worth it.
01-08-2001, 07:48 PM
I hope you are right, but I just listened to John Clayton and he thinks the Rams have a better chance of winning than us...He thinks if they do win it will be a 1 and a 4...I sure hope he doesnt know what the hell he is talking about.
01-08-2001, 07:58 PM
Clayton doesn't know what he's talking about. The Chiefs will get DV, and the Rams will get nothing. I don't think Carl will except anything but this.
This is what should happen. The Rams goofed when they terminated Vermeil's coaching contract. Too bad, so sad, but this is the way things are.
Red and Gold Mania
01-08-2001, 07:59 PM
If the NFL does rule against Peterson than we know for sure Georgia Frontiere spend some quality time on her knees in the Taglibue's office. How in the f*** do the defending Super Bowl champions get to play San Diego? This is beyond me.
[Edited by Red and Gold Mania on 01-08-2001 at 08:03 PM]
01-08-2001, 08:26 PM
Lamar Hunt and Carl Peterson had the Chiefs attorneys go over this before hand. If the contract is indeed for a consultant and not a coach I believe that the Rams know that they will get nothing and tried to bluff Carl out of some draft choices. What did they have to lose? Nothing because they knew they were getting nothing anyway.
Georgia has been known to spend time on her knees to get her way.
I believe that Tagliabue will tell Georgia and Shaw you lose!
Archie F. Swin
01-08-2001, 08:28 PM
if the (butt)Rams can talk CP out of a 1st & 4th, we should be able to talk him out of free beer at home games.
01-08-2001, 08:32 PM
I hope you are right...That was my original thoughts but I was starting to waiver...If that is not what happens, what do you think CP will do? Give up the picks or go for another coach?
01-08-2001, 09:14 PM
Shaw knows he is about to be sent to bed without supper, so he claims he will file a tampering charge against us. That will delay DV's hiring, and he hopes Peterson will toss him a pick so we can get started signing coordinators and other assistants.
The contract says "terminated" for pete's sake.
01-08-2001, 09:23 PM
I see the deal getting done one way or another, Carl ain't going to give up on this thing so easily. But I don't think he should give up a 1st. The only way he'll give up a first is if he feels Vermiel will make a Joe Montana type difference.
If he does give up a 1st he sure as hell better move his ass and sign a major free agent to take the place of that draft pick while I rip him for being a dumbass.
And I certainly hope the NFL doesn't throw a shocker our way and say we've tampered and must give up first rounders. Yet that would not surprise me since nothing seems to be going my way these days...
01-08-2001, 09:35 PM
I think Clayton is right. I think Tags hammers us for tampering. We obviously did tamper with an employee of the Rams, even though it was a "consultant". As a member of STL payroll, Vermeil had no business sitting in on meetings with the coaching staff of the KC Chiefs. Carl will pencil in DV's name in our first round slot. Just like Montana. If we lose #12, and Dan Morgan is available there I will not lay down to sleep every night without saying a negative word about King Carl.
01-08-2001, 09:49 PM
If Tagliabue rules against the Chiefs I don't believe it will be a first round draft choice. This is a way different matter than the Tuna issue. Carl will not give up a first round pick in this issue and probably already knows about what it could cost the Chiefs if they were to lose.
01-08-2001, 09:49 PM
Red & Gold Mania, Rick Stephens:
Pure classic posts about Georgia. I only dispute that the Commish wants to be bothered by the "St. Louis Slut". Maybe back in Rozelle's time... but her days of putting out have thankfully come and gone.
Carl & Lamar may be a lot of things, but this matter is going to be resolved in their favor. I mean, think about it. Vermeil's been in town for quite some time. The deal was struck. The contract was poured over. Most importantly, the Chiefs have had over 4 days to re-examine this contract, just to make sure they weren't jeopardizing anything by arbitration. If they were, they would've looked to cook up a deal before this goes to arbitration. It certainly appears that the Rams are the eager party looking to prevent arbitration.
Vermeil is ours and the Rams aren't going to even get a pluck nickel, which is what Georgia was fetching on the streets back in her day...
01-08-2001, 09:52 PM
If Marty was worth 2 3rd rounders, no way do we give up a 1st & 4th for a burnt out old Vermeil who wouldn't coach the team more than 2-3 years.
01-08-2001, 11:15 PM
Can you smell what DaWolf iz cookin'?!? (#17)
MrBlond, you bring up valid points. I hate you for it. :D (#18)
AJKCFAN, I believe that's a plugged nickel.
IF the Chiefs get ganked, it won't be for very much. Maybe one of the thirds we got from Wash. Ain't no way Carl gives up a first. Best friend or not.
01-09-2001, 07:44 AM
I like what I am hearing...Just hope you guys know what you are talking about...Cause I am with Mr Blond...My worst nightmare come true would be to watch Dan Morgan still be on the board at #12 and all we have to show for it is a 64 year old coach...If that happens I might be forced to bring my 20 plus year love affair with this franchise to a screeching halt.
01-09-2001, 08:30 AM
As Bob Dole stated a few days ago in another topic: If Tags sticks it to KC in the form of a first round pick, then Bob Dole is going to buy in to the NFL Conspiracy Against Kansas City theories...
How the f#ck is a $500k a year consultant with a $2mil total contract a fair exchange for a #12 pick overall? It's not. No way, no how.
Bob Dole's bitterness about the wasted 2000 season is going to escalate to new highs if this crap comes down in favor of St. Louis.
01-09-2001, 08:44 AM
I'm trying to look at this deal through a set of impartial eyewear. When doing so, I believe the Chiefs are going to have to surrender the the two 3rd rounders they obtained in the Washington deal, nothing more. Tag's is going to have to save face a little in this one. Although the contract is somewhat damning to the Rams in their language, Tags will look at the "Spirit of the contract" vs. only it's verbiage. If not, he could potentially set a dangerous precedent.
This would be a win-win-win for the NFL, Rams and the Chiefs. Those 2 3rd rd compensatory picks from the Skins would not bear as much as what Vermeil can bring to the Chiefs - respectability and stabiltity amongst the organization, the team and it's fans. Vermeil is not the long term solution, but is an excellent stop gap measure for a sinking ship.
01-09-2001, 08:53 AM
If we lose a #12 for a fuggin 64 year old coach...JL80 will need to be restrained...
Here is the recent history of the #12 pick:
When you consider Tony G was the 13th pick in the draft that shows you the type of player we could be losing...OUCH
01-09-2001, 09:04 AM
Bob Dole keeps reading this "dangerous precedent" crap in the national media, and is having a hard time deciphering about what the hell they're talking.
They refer to the precedent of a coach retiring, claiming they're finished forever to "get out of a contract," and then coming back a year later.
The fairly obvious solution is for any team to refuse to void the existing contract. End of story. All this "sprit of the law" talk is absolute garbage, in Bob Dole's opinion. The "spirit" of a stop sign is for Bob Dole to stop and make sure there is no oncoming traffic with which to collide. Bob Dole can do that in many instances without becoming a body at rest, but you can bet your ass Bob Dole still gets a ticket and a fine...
01-09-2001, 09:17 AM
This adds a new twist to the argument, in Bob Dole's opinion.
Apparently, the Rams' position isn't about compensation.
<i>"What I'm really seeking is to prevent him from coaching," Shaw said. "I'm not really asking for compensation. We're seeking to enjoin him from coaching for the Chiefs next year."</i>
Bob Dole fails to see how any reasonable individual could support a "if you're not working for me, you're not going to work at all" position. Would any of you feel like upholding the "spirit" if <b>your</b> previous employer made such a statement?
01-09-2001, 09:18 AM
Don't believe that we have alot to worry about on this one.CP and Lamar will do whatever they want and we can't do alot about it! Worst case,IMHO will be lose the 2 3's we just got....but I hope we lose nothing,we need to have them for the TEAM !
01-09-2001, 09:21 AM
Just to let everyone know how painful the loss of our #1 could be....Here is a list of former first rounders that could have been had with the 12th pick:
00-Shaun Ellis,Julian Peterson,S.Alexander,Sly Morris
99-Anthony McFarland,Jevon Kearse,Antoine Winfield
98-Takeo Spikes,Randy Moss
97-Warrick Dunn,Tony Gonzalez,Kenny Holmes,Dwayne Rudd
96-Eddie George,Marvin Harrison,Daryl Gardener,Eric Moulds,Ray Lewis
95-Warren Sapp,Mark Fields,Reuben Brown,Hugh Douglas,Luther Elliss,Derrick Brooks
94-Aaron Glenn,Joe Johnson,Tim Bowens,Derrick Alexander
93-Brad Hopkins,Robert Smith,Dana Stubblefield
01-09-2001, 09:27 AM
And another thing that Bob Dole finds incredibly annoying...
Bob Dole has repeatedly read Shaw's argument that Ron Wolf offered a 1st and a 4th for Marty last year after a one-year retirement, so St. Louis should get similar for DV.
Unfortunately, as stated a few days ago, the 1st and 4th compensation <b>never happened</b>, so is pretty lame as far as precedent goes. And what they fail to mention is that draft pick compensation is <b>not</b> based on length of retirement or Super Bowl appearances. The compensation is for <b>the time remaining on the contract</b>. Marty had 2 years left on his contract at the time of the GB offer, and DV only has 1 year remaining.
If the NFL rules that DV's contract was not voided, then the current going rate for a head coach with one year remaining on a contract is 2 3rd round picks...not a 1 and a 4.
01-09-2001, 09:41 AM
What if we have no choice? What if they say we have to officialy hire vermiel before they will decide on compensation?
01-09-2001, 09:43 AM
Dole - Your last 2 posts are exactly what I have been thinking about this whole mess, exactly. Shaw is so full of it that it is just sad, and he is even hypocritical to boot.
01-09-2001, 09:44 AM
I couldn't agree with you more on your comments. However, this solution (giving up picks to obtain Vermeil), while it may not be palatable for all, would be the best solution for the NFL. This deal is no longer about the Rams & Chiefs, it's now about how the NFL will handle these situations that become "vague" in manner, even when it appears to be black & white. The NFL is on stage right now, and somewhat boxed into a corner in mandating that the Chiefs give the Rams some sort of compensation for this transaction.
When the NFL has to put on the officials pinstripes, they tend to favor the wounded duck, aka Rams in this case. Use the weak example of the Patriots and Jets for any proof that you may need. The Jets were raped!
Personally, I think the Chiefs owe zilch to the Rams, but realistically, they will probably have to cough up some compensation to consumate the deal. JMHO.
01-09-2001, 09:45 AM
Then we might as well bend over....
01-09-2001, 10:01 AM
I have a bad feeling about today. Any time the NFL gets involved anything can happen. I am not worried about losing comp. for hiring DV. The contract obviously states his HC contract was terminated. Carl knows this or would have kept Gunther another year until DV's HC contract expired. I am worried about tampering. the NFL has always taken tampering very seriously. Tags does not need any precedents. He could say "The Chiefs negotiated with an employee of the Rams without the Rams permision." and call for any penalty he sees fit. King Carl would have no recourse, no appeal. Carl has a lot riding on todays outcome IMO. If he loses #12, my feeling is that he failed. Failed in the hiring of Gunther. Failed in the way he fired Gunther. Failed in the hiring of Vermeil. Failed in the hiring and retention of the stooges. Failed to acquire the coaching and talent to win a SuperBowl. If he gets Vermeil for nothing my feeling will be he succeed. Succeeded in recognizing Gunther was not the man for the job. Succeeded in hiring a Superbowl winning HC. Succeeded in acquiring the multiple high round draft choices needed to have a successful draft. And succeeded in sticking it to the Rams.
01-09-2001, 10:04 AM
Are you gonna bark all day, little doggy? Or are you gonna bite?
01-09-2001, 10:14 AM
The whole situation as Bob Dole understands it is not vague at all. DV's coaching contract was terminated and he signed a consultation contract that does not prohibit his return as a head coach for another organization. What's so vague about that?
Shaw is a lawyer, and if he can't write a contract that clearly reflects his organization's position and intent, then maybe he shouldn't be writing contracts.
So sad you screwed up Shaw. Live and learn, and next time don't void the coaching contract.
Hey other NFL teams: Look at this mistake St. Louis made and don't repeat it in your contractual agreements.
If your intent is that your resigned/retired head coach does not return to another team in any capacity for X years, then write it <b>clearly</b> in the damned contract.
Bob Dole signed a contract for extended warranty coverage on Bob Dole's car with the <i>intent</i> that <b>any</b> repair was covered. You think the warranty company considered Bob Dole's <i>intent</i> when they refused to pay for a $300 headlight motor that was not explicitly listed under "covered repairs?" You really think Bob Dole could have successfully challenged their denial of coverage in a court of law?
01-09-2001, 10:20 AM
I bet your a big Lee Marvin fan.
01-09-2001, 10:25 AM
I agree. But isnt it tampering to have DV sit in on meetings of the coaching staff while under contract with the Rams?
01-09-2001, 10:52 AM
I'll assume your venting at this point, because, as stated before, I agree with your points.
However, since the NFL doesn't necessarily swim in the pool of logic, I'll surmise at this point that the Chiefs will still have to surrender both #3's.
01-09-2001, 11:00 AM
Correct assumption, Chi--was not directed at you.
Bob Dole would not have a problem passing along the 2 #3 picks acquired from Washington, as Bob Dole would consider that "fair market value."
As for the tampering charges: Bob Dole's take is that it would depend on the terms of DV's consultation agreement.
Bob Dole has served as a consultant in the past, and none of the contractual agreements for service excluded entering in to similar consultation agreements with other clients.
01-09-2001, 11:17 AM
If we have to give up anything more than a sixth or seventh rounder for the old man, I wiil not be happy!
01-09-2001, 11:24 AM
Other than Gun, since I know your a significant Gun apologist, whom would you like to have as your next HC for the Chiefs.
~can't believe anyone would still want Gun as their HC after watching this years command performance
01-09-2001, 11:39 AM
It seems to be a pretty clear cut case of tampering to me. DV is on the payroll of the Rams. While in the employement of the Rams as a consultant he actually consults with the GM of the Chiefs. He by all reports sits in meetings with the current managment of the Chiefs. He negotiates a contract to be the head coach of the Chiefs. He does this while a member of the Rams team and while recieving money in return for consulting and advising the Rams on how to improve and reach their goal of winning the Superbowl. If the word "terminate" is included in his HC contract, we owe no comp. IMO. But I am afraid of the penalty for tampering. Tags could go with a slap on the wrist or the death penalty.
01-09-2001, 11:40 AM
Anything will be an improvement over what we had...Gun couldn't lead a whore to bed...let alone a NFL football team...
Just hoping like hell the change doesn't cost us a #1
01-09-2001, 11:41 AM
Carl Peterson must be worried also, or he NEVER would have even offered compensation. If this was an open and shut, iron-clad slam dunk DV would be moving into Arrowhead today.
01-09-2001, 11:45 AM
I agree with what you are saying but today's arb is about compensation...Wouldn't tampering be a another hearing on another day?
01-09-2001, 11:46 AM
In any other business, a consultant is not considered an employee.
01-09-2001, 11:48 AM
This is not necessarily a clear case of Tampering. One advantage of consulting is that you can offer your services to as many companies as you like. Now, having said that as a former consultant I can also tell you that someone hiring a consultant can put terms in the contract to make the arrangement exclusive. It is my guess that the Ram and Shaw probably screwed this one up also, or Carl would not have pursued this as far as he has done. This whole menagerie smacks of a huge Rams error in the euphoria of the post Superbowl success, that and a huge desire to make Martz the Head Coach.
Note: I am not saying that compensation won't be given, just that it will not be the asked for 1 and 4, and that tampering is not an issue. Tampering would only be an issue if there was an exclusivity agreement for his consultant work and the Chiefs were trying to hire him as a consultant.
01-09-2001, 11:50 AM
If you guys are right it will make my off-season. If we lose a Dan Morgan or a stud runner for Vermeil I may cry.
01-09-2001, 11:54 AM
I just hope like hell that we hear in the next couple hours that CP and the NFL laid the big ten inch:D to the Scrams...Cause I think that this draft is deep enough that the extra 3rd rounder will bring in a difference maker...
01-09-2001, 11:54 AM
One other thing, if our owner was Al Davis or Jerry Jones this might very well be an open and shut slam dunk. Lamar Hunt is not willing to thumb his nose at the league and just take them to court. This is why I believe some compensation has been offered. Remember Lamar is the penultimate in good NFL citizenry and will not change that.
01-09-2001, 12:19 PM
I just read an article that doesn't expect Tagliaboohoo to make a decision until later in the week...
01-09-2001, 12:33 PM
I heard the same thing Jl. Both teams are in NY presenting their cases and Tagliabue will rule later this week.
IMO, no way Carl will part with a # 1 pick. I don't think he will have to, though. If we are required to give compensation, I'm sure it will be the two #3's we received from Washington.
We'd better hope it's only those two 3rd rounders. CP has already negotiated and agreed on the contract with DV and that means that whatever Tags decides is what goes. No going back now. We get DV and the Rams get whatever Tags decides to give them.
I, for one, will be pretty disappointed if we are screwed out of our highest draft pick in years.
01-10-2001, 09:15 AM
Here appears to be the answer to my original question...Looks like they will go a different direction if Vermeil cost us a #1.
<title>The Star Sports Chiefs Page</title>
<font color="000088"><b>Chiefs face tough decision if forced to give up No. 1 pick</b></font><p>
<font size=-1 color="880000"><i><b>By ADAM TEICHER - The Kansas City Star</b></i></font><br>
<font size=-1><b>Date: 01/09/01 22:15</b></font><p>
One scenario could possibly wreck the Chiefs' dream of hiring Dick Vermeil. <P>
That would be if NFL commissioner Paul Tagliabue rules that a first-round draft pick be part of the compensation package due the Rams. <P>
It could end the Chiefs' pursuit of Vermeil. <P>
"I would have to speak with Lamar (Hunt) and get his thoughts on that," president/general manager Carl Peterson said. "We haven't had that discussion yet." <P>
Hunt, the Chiefs' owner, said: "We haven't really walked through the what-ifs." <P>
The Chiefs always value their first-round draft picks. This year, following a 7-9 season, they will draft 12th, their highest spot in the first round since taking Alabama linebacker Derrick Thomas fourth in 1989. <P>
Even Vermeil indicated he doesn't know whether he will coach the Chiefs if the club is forced to give up a No. 1 pick. <P>
"I can't tell you," Vermeil said. "I can't believe that could happen. But I can't tell you. I'd have to talk with Carl about that. We haven't talked about it yet." <!-- EOF -->
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