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View Full Version : Jeez, a second round draft pick is more important than trying to win a championship?


DaWolf
01-10-2001, 08:18 PM
Trust me, I didn't want to give away a damn thing either, but you knew the commish was going to rule with that "spirit of the agreement" crap since this wasn't court and he has to keep everyone happy.

But come on, a second round pick is worth it to me to try and put together a championship team right now. The NFL today is about quick turnarounds and winning this year, not 4 years down the line. A head coach with two super bowls under his belt brings a lot to the table. He wil shape this team. He will make the locker room a better place. He will make these guys play as a team. He will unite these guys in a common goal, and he brings instant credibility to the job, he won't have to spend all his waking hours trying to prove himself to everyone. He will bring together a good coaching staff. He gives us instant credibility and respect. He brings with him a lot of connections around the league, connections which for example allowed friend Bill Polian to come to the Rams with the Faulk deal. He and Carl are tight, and Carl is going to make sure he does everythiing in his power to A)make sure that Vermiel wins here and his legacy is not tarnished, and B)Make sure that Lamar Hunt's investment is not a wasted one. Carl IMO should have extra motivation to work harder than ever.

What we give up is a No 2 pick. Sure, that pick could end up being a great player. Then again maybe not. Chances are our No 2 pick would be getting little PT the first few years. There's always the risk that the No 2 pick could be, for example, another Mike Cloud. We have an extra 3rd this year since the 3rd we give up is next year, and we have yet another extra pick in the Stai deal, so if we really want a guy in the 2nd it would be concievable to trade up. But losing a No 2 is not the end of the world, especially if we sign a quality free agent to take its place.

I say welcome aboard Dick Vermiel, and screw you Tagliabue...

ROYC75
01-10-2001, 08:22 PM
DaWolf...

Yes.it's not that bad......The 3 was a gimme on WASH.
If in fact he can make us a quick turn to the SB...It's a good move,if he can't we could use to pic's to build a strong young team!

I'm tired of all this "Intent crap"...1st Florida voters...now this! Is Tag a Democrat?

G_Man
01-10-2001, 08:25 PM
I agree, although I would've been much happier with a 3 this year, and a 2nd next year.

Hopefully this forces Carl to draft a RB in the 1st, since it's not likely that any of the top backs will last to the 3rd. i just hope he wasn't too serious about making T-Rich the starting HB. If he was, hopefully Vermiel can talk him out of it.

Basically, we are trading our 2nd this year for Washington's 3rd. I can handle that price for bringing in a legitimate SB winning coach and a quality NFL staff.

NaptownChief
01-10-2001, 08:25 PM
Wolf,

I understand what you are saying but the bottom line is that 99.9% of all coaches ever hired in the NFL didn't cost draft picks...Why the hell do we have to be in that tenth of a percentile?

Furthermore, I could handle this much better if we were getting a two time Super Bowl coach who is 45-55 not 64...For Gawdsakes he has retired twice already, number 3 can't be very far away...

ansonsdad
01-10-2001, 08:26 PM
I agree with you Wolf,Vermeil(potentially) brings alot to the table.It would be interesting to know,come draft day, who we would have taken with that #2.From here on out though,I resolve to remain positively optimistic!WE WIN WE WIN WE WIN!!!!!! G-O--C-H-I-E-F-S-->

G_Man
01-10-2001, 08:27 PM
Right after his next SB appearance, jl80. :)

ROYC75
01-10-2001, 08:32 PM
Can DV consult for 2 teams ? I don't know...Hire Al,let DV be the brains and we owe STL nothing!Anybody know about this move?

NaptownChief
01-10-2001, 08:34 PM
Roy,

The only move we are going to make at this point is the lean forward and bend over move made popular in the Bay area....

ROYC75
01-10-2001, 08:39 PM
jl...

Kinda of what I thought too! But had to ask that ?....wonder if that could work,Sh!tty way to go around it!

Logical
01-10-2001, 08:41 PM
DaWolf,

You are pointing out good things, as far as I can tell on both boards tonight it must not be the time or place.

I agree with you whole heartedly, for the first time in a year I am truly excited and exhilirated about the Chiefs. I was still a fan but was turning toward my resigned mode of the 80s. This is possibly the greatest scenario for the Chiefs since Carl and Marty arrived in the late 80s and when Montana and Marcus brought us the run to the AFC title game.

Unfortunately all most of the BB regulars on both boards want to do is bitch and moan over a 2nd rounder.

I would be at the top of list if it had been a first, but really how many 2nd round picks turn around a team?

NaptownChief
01-10-2001, 08:43 PM
Logical,

How many 64 year old coaches, twice retired, turn around a team?

DaWolf
01-10-2001, 08:44 PM
Guys, Al Saunders was an utter faliure in his only stint as the San Diego head coach. Would you really be comfortable with him coming in as your head coach after spending all these years as a recievers coach?

And regarding age, Marty is like 56 and Tuna is like 60, I sure wouldn't mind Tuna down there. Age isn't all that important. I too would like a younger guy, but is there really anyone qualified out there? The last coordinator who really had me excited about the posibility of being a HC was Brian Billick, and Marty retired just about at the same time he was taking the Baltimore job, so we missed out on him.

I see this as a sign Carl wants to win now. He did not bring his close friend Vermiel in here to suffer through 6-10 seasons. Now that may very well happen and this could end up being a disaster, but I think it is unlikely and I think it is actually a bold move by Carl. Similar in respect to the Joe Montana thing in that he was able to get Marty farther than he's ever gotten in the playoffs with us before, and had we won in Minnesota we would have had HFA instead of going to Buffalo, but that's another post. That was a good move, and it helped set up a run of 3 Super Bowl caliber teams that unfortunately choked in the playoffs. It did not hurt in the long run. I think the Niners used that first round pick for Dana Stubblefield.

I'm convinced that if Vermiel turned us down and it never got to the contract phase, Gunther would still be the head coach in 2001. A second round pick is at least worth getting rid of that staff...

Cannibal
01-10-2001, 08:48 PM
I DO NOT see anything in the signing of Dickey Vermiel that leads me to believe that anything with Chiefs has changed. I don't see anything that shows me that this team will be anymore competitive than they've been the last 5 years.

It still looks like a typical 7-9, 10-6 first round playoff exit signing to me. Per Carl's usual.

ROYC75
01-10-2001, 08:51 PM
DaWolf.......

If Al isn't ready now after all these years,how do you think 2 or 3 more years is going to help that much!I like DV,but still don't feel that this is the best thing to do! We made a move last year to get younger and faster,we need pic's to do so!

NaptownChief
01-10-2001, 08:55 PM
You don't have to look very far to realize the value of that pick...Look a Greg Wesley and what he brings to the table for us and he was a late 3rd rounder...This pick is much higher in a much deeper draft...Anybody in here be willing to give up Greg Wesley for Vermeil?

Logical
01-10-2001, 08:57 PM
I already pointed out that the Tuna is 61 would you take him? How about George Seifert he is even older. If Bill Walsh were willing to coach again would you turn him down.

Casey Stengel won a championship at 69. This list goes on and on and on. You folks have the worst case of age discrimination going for you that I have ever scene. DV turned around the Rams between the ages of 60 and 63 and that was from a team that was a total wreck. You mean to tell me at one year older he is now incapable of the same thing. Get Real!

The coaching staff he will bring will turn the team around, his ability to draw that staff and pull them together is the magical part.

This is such a role reversal for me, I as a realist am being portrayed with Rose Colored Glasses as an Optimist.

Truly Bizarre!!

[Edited by Logical on 01-10-2001 at 10:02 PM]

G_Man
01-10-2001, 08:57 PM
jl80 - How about Cloud, Shehee, Atkins, Stills, etc. etc. Wesley is the exception, not the rule.

DaWolf
01-10-2001, 08:59 PM
Greg Wesley replaced another 2nd rounder, Reggie Tongue. It's not the end of the world. We have extra picks later.

Would you trade Cloud or Bennett for Vermiel?

It goes both ways.

As far as Saunders, I'm not really sold on him as a head coach. I would like to see how he calls plays before I make that call though. He is a good teacher and an excellent recievers coach...

TheFly
01-10-2001, 09:01 PM
Can't go with you on this one Logical. Like Florida, the law is the law. The coaching contract was "terminated" and a consulting contract instituted. Nothing was owed. If Al Davis was doing this he would have gone to court and won. Do you think Carl will go to court over a contract?! No way.

I cannot see why we couldn't find coaches like Neuheisel(sp?) and others who could bring us capable coaches and we get to keep our draft picks too.

I really think we need these draft picks to build the team more than we need Vermeil to build the team.

Logical
01-10-2001, 09:07 PM
Fly,

I have gotten over that, I was arguing with Roy Biv on the other board making your exact points yesterday. However, I always pointed out two things.

1) The decision is in the realm of the closed society that the NFL is today.

2) Lamar Hunt is not like Al Davis and Jerry Jones and will not bypass the closed society system and take it into the courts where they could have won. Lamar has and always will be a great corporate citizen and will not do anything that would harm that reputation.

Therefore I prepared myself for this result, the only result that would have been unacceptable that I considered was giving up a 1st rounder this year or next.

Cannibal
01-10-2001, 09:07 PM
Vermiel didn't "turn around" squat.

From what I've read he was forced to relinquish some power to his assistants, as well as give up control over personell. Supposedly he was against trading for Marshall Faulk. He wanted to draft Curtis Enis. He wanted Lawrence Phillips, he did not want to trade Tony Banks. If it had been up to Vermiel, the Rams starting QB for the '99 season would've been Tony Banks.

Vermiel had a lot more to do with Rams winning 9 games in his first two years with the team, than he did "winning a championship".

DaWolf
01-10-2001, 09:19 PM
Cannibal, exactly, from what you've read. You have no idea if that is accurate. In fact one of the articles in the Post Dispatch that outlined the points you mention is written by a columnist whom I've been told has the credibility of Whitlock.

In fact one of the major things that was being talked about after the Faulk deal was that the reason the Rams got the deal and got it at what seemed not much for compensation was because Vermiel and Polian were very good friends.

He HAS turned around squat. Not only the Rams who were abysmal for over a decade before he arrived, but the Eagles who sucked before he arrived, and UCLA. Even Bill Walsh called him "one of the greatest coaches of our era." I find all this badmouthing of him by columnists and fans laughable...

The_Grand_Illusion
01-10-2001, 09:46 PM
Looks like Tags legislated from the bench. Kind of like the FLA Supremes. It happened and I'm not happy with it but I am ready to back DV. Many complained that if only we had the right coaching this past year, what we may have accomplished. Well now we have the coaching in place and IMO I believe we have most of the pieces in place. Let's see how far we can go next year.

Yeah I'm excited.
TGI

Frazod
01-10-2001, 09:57 PM
Good post, GI. I agree. We certainly got ass-raped out of a second rounder, but its time to move on. Let's hope that pick ends up being a bust for them, but even if it isn't, we won't play the whiny little bitches again for three years - its not like we lost a No. 2 to Denver or Oakland.

So I say good luck, Dick, hope you bring in some genius stud coaches in here to turn this thing around.

"The future has taken root in the present - it is done."

- Merlin the Magician, from Excaliber

soliday
01-10-2001, 09:59 PM
This is probably going to be a mess but here are the last ten guys picked with the 41st pick:

Raynoch Thompson
Cardinals
LB
Tennessee41
Dre' Bly
Rams
DB
North Carolina41
Jeremy Staat
Steelers
DE
Arizona State41
Byron Hanspard
Falcons
RB
Texas Tech41
Bryan Still
Chargers
WR
Virginia Tech41
Ronald Davis
Falcons
DB
Tennessee41
Ryan Yarborough
Jets
WR
Wyoming41
Natrone Means
Chargers
RB
North Carolina41
Phillippi Sparks
Giants
DB
Arizona State41
Jerome Henderson
Patriots
DB
Clemson41
Jeff Alm
Oilers
DT
Notre Dame


Yeah, a mess, Sorry

DaWolf
01-10-2001, 10:00 PM
Funny thing is Carl said it was more than fair and in fact had Shaw negotiated himself he could have maybe come out of this better (probably meaning a 3rd this year instead of next and maybe a latter round draft pick thrown in next year if push came to shove).

Carl made it sound like he went to the commish knowing full well that there is no way the commisioner doesn't award draft picks, but yet he would come out of it giving up just about what he was willing to give up, if not less...

DaWolf
01-10-2001, 10:02 PM
Great post Soliday. That is some interesting stuff...

KCTitus
01-11-2001, 06:37 AM
Vermeil had NO impact on St. Louis drafting Lawerence Phillips. Whatever you read about that Cannibal, the person was wrong.

Phillips was drafted in April 1996. Vermeil took the Rams HC job in January 1997. Phillips was subsequently released by the Rams in November of 1997. Sounds like Vermeil didnt really want Phillips.

NaptownChief
01-11-2001, 06:45 AM
For all of you who are trying to make your point by saying that "we don't have a good history of drafting players in the 2nd round anyway..."

Based on that theory why don't we just give away our next 3 or 4 first round picks to complete our coaching staff cause hell, we have blown 1st rounders in the past on Trezell Jenkins, Harvey Williams, Greg Hill, Ethan Horten, Todd Blackledge etc.etc...

KCTitus
01-11-2001, 06:48 AM
jl: rather than be absurd, why not look at the history of the #12 pick in the second round for ALL NFL teams. When you find that prime time playa, please point him out.

I think it's a valid point that a 2nd rounder which doesnt have a high probability of 'greatness' is worth the removal of our current coaching staff.

NaptownChief
01-11-2001, 06:52 AM
Titus,

When I get a chance I will do my homework and come up with serveral 2nd rounders who have made a big impact...But just off of those already posted here I would say that Natrone Means pick looks very nice to me...When he was young and healthy he led that SD team to the Super Bowl...

MrBlond
01-11-2001, 07:05 AM
Doesn't this affect our pick at #12? May we pass up a Dan Morgan because we will be unable to get a solid RB w/o our second rounder? As far as 2nd rounders, Christian Okoye. I am glad Gun and the Stooges are gone. I am happy w/Vermeil. I will miss that 2nd rounder though.

KCTitus
01-11-2001, 07:33 AM
jl: Natrone had that one good year. Hardly what I would term a primetime player or a major draft pickup.

HC_Chief
01-11-2001, 07:49 AM
Don't be so sure we will not have a 2nd round pick! Jacksonville owes us compensation for Brendan Stai. Stai started nearly every game for them this year; which means our compensation will be greater than a 4th... could possibly even go all the way up to a #1.

<i>? May we pass up a Dan Morgan because </i> - <b>IF</b> Morgan were available at #12(not very likely), we would not pass him up.

NaptownChief
01-11-2001, 08:12 AM
Titus,

Here is one for ya....43rd pick of the 1997 Draft....Corey Dillon

soliday
01-11-2001, 10:40 AM
We can all pick flops and bargains at every pick and round in the draft. Terrell Davis was picked in the sixth round, and Tony Mandarich was picked with the second overall pick. Does that mean that a sixth round pick is more valuable than the second overall pick? No, but your chances of success diminish the later you go in the draft. I personally was hoping that the Chiefs wouldn't lose a second rounder because of the depth in this draft, but I'd rather have in place a top-line coach than the number 42 pick in this April's draft. Ask yourself how many Super Bowl rings does Corey Dillon have? How many playoff victories? How many playoff games? Zero, because he has never been surrounded with an organization and coaching staff that could bring together a Super Bowl team.

In the full context of things this is what has happenned with Chiefs draft picks:

Gained: Lost:

4th rounder for a back-up 2nd rounder in 2001
guard who might even have 3rd rounder from Washington
made the team (remember, the in 2002
Chiefs were dissappointed
with Stai)

3rd rounder in 2001 and
3rd rounder in 2002 for a
coach they weren't paying
and weren't necessarily going
to get anything for.

It works out to this---We traded our 2nd rounder in 2001 for a 3rd rounder in 2001 and 4th rounder in 2001 and a Super Bowl-experienced coaching staff.

I'll take that trade. Plus, every free agent in football now has the Chiefs on their list because they know Vermeil is a guy that wins, and makes it fun to work with him.

Nothing is guaranteed, but I like the direction this gives the Chiefs, something no 2nd rounder, Corey Dillon included, could ever provide.

Soliday

Sorry, the above is kind of mangled.

[Edited by soliday on 01-11-2001 at 11:49 AM]

HC_Chief
01-11-2001, 10:43 AM
Good Post! :)

soliday
01-11-2001, 10:54 AM
To paraphrase John Lennon:

All we are saaaaaaaaaying, is give Dick a chance, (everybody)
All we are saaaaaaaaaying, is give Dick a chance.

I am the walrus,
Soliday

htismaqe
01-11-2001, 10:57 AM
that sounds pretty disgusting there soliday...