View Full Version : Probably Going to Piss Everyone off But So Be it...
01-11-2001, 12:16 PM
I am completely worn out on this attitude that getting rid of our old coaching staff is well worth our 2nd round pick....Will we be a better team with new coaches without our 2nd rounder then we would have with GOONTHAR and the 2nd rounder...Probably so...But is that reason enough to be happy? Is that reason enough to not be pissed off? Absolutely not...
It might very well be true that if it was not for Dick V then CP might have stayed with GOONTHAR...If that is the case we will be a better team this year for making the move...But just because our GM is dumb enough to think that GOONTHAR is 2nd best alternative to Dick Vermeil does not mean that I have to be happy because we got the lesser of two evils...We should all be pissed off that we have a GM that put us in this position. We should all be pissed off that we had two throw away draft picks to get a 64 year old coach because our GM is either too stupid or too stubborn have made the change for anyone other than Vermeil. When the reality is that there is probably 30 plus coaches on the market that would have been a much better choice then staying with GOONTHAR...
So in summary, we will be a better team immediately then had we not made the coaching changes...But after watching our team grossly underachieve our talent and ability level for the past two years under GOONTHAR, a good GM would have been ready to go in a different direction and would have had multiple plans laid out...Dick Vermeil could have been among those plans but the fact that he had no other plans and was content to stay with GOONTHAR and the stooges is more than enough reason to be pissed off. It is time that we start making smart decisions as a franchise. It is time that we as fan start expecting smart decisions...This attitude of choosing between the lesser of two evils or the lesser of two bad decisions is unacceptable...That fact that so many of us are willing to accept that horse $hit might play a large roll in the reason we haven't been to the Super Bowl in 30 years. It is time to expect success and it is time to flush this attitude of "at least it isn't as bad as it could be"...That attitude breeds mediocrity and by no coincidence this franchise has become the NFL's epitome of mediocrity.
The exciting thing about Vermeil is that he will attract qualified assistants to KC. How long has it been since we could make that statement?
I don't expect Vermeil to take us to the Super Bowl in '01/'02, nor even '02/'03. Although, I do expect us to be in the playoffs next season. I expect Vermeil to build a solid coaching staff and groom his replacement, whether that is Saunders or someone else.
Gunther and the Stooges were possibly the most inept coaching staff if football. A considerable majority of us on the BB pointed at the coaching staff as the main reason we stunk this season.
Vermeil will remove that excuse.
satisfied, if not thrilled.
01-11-2001, 12:28 PM
I am very happy with Vermeil as the coach...I was among many who wanted the old staff out at any cost...But my point is that we shouldn't be content sitting out here like desperate souls just hoping that our management can make a less than disastrous decision about running this team...Vermeil is a decent decision and a huge step in the right direction...But the fact that CP was willing to sit still had this not worked out proves to me that any good decisions that he makes is probably going to be out of sheer luck...
01-11-2001, 12:33 PM
Excellent post jl80.
I stopped putting up w/ the mediocrity after the 97 first round playoff exit.
People think I'm "negative", but I refuse to lie to myself to make myself feel better about our situation. That attitude permeates both Bulliten Boards.
It was bad hire with or without the draft picks.
01-11-2001, 12:34 PM
Well, CP obviously wasn't just going to "stand pat" since the decision by Tags was this morning, and Gunther was fired on Saturday. So, if the DV thing didn't work out, he would've had to find another coach at that point...
01-11-2001, 12:36 PM
You're viewed as "negative" because you are...I find it funny that you say "lie" as if somehow your opinion is the "truth"...
01-11-2001, 12:37 PM
Well the difference I guess is that I think Vermiel was a great choice.
We could have gone with a younger version, IE Payton or McCarthy, but that is taking a risk on a younger guy who will have to go through growing pains, and I assume Carl wants to make the playoffs now with this move. I know you're saying we're not a playoff team, but if the Saints can trade away their entire draft and make the playoffs in one year anyway, trading one pick away isn't that big of a deal if we persue things in the FA market intelligently.
I'm just glad we didn't go after another defensive coordinator. I was tired of that. Maybe they will turn into good coaches, but I would prefer to have a totally fresh perspective in here than another defensive guy. That's just me.
Who knows, maybe Vermiel and his friendships around the league can help us pull off some deals that Carl couldn't pull off, IE the Faulk trade, since he and Polian were friends. We'll just have to wait and see...
[Edited by DaWolf on 01-11-2001 at 12:41 PM]
01-11-2001, 12:39 PM
Accordding to G-Man's post, if Vermeil wasn't interested he was going to stay with Gun
01-11-2001, 12:44 PM
Yeah, that was according to Carl, who said that he told Gunther during one of their meetings that they were "exploring" the possibility of Vermiel. I do wonder about that though, because how could a HC wiew himself as totally legit if he knew he was only there because choice No 1 didn't take the job...
01-11-2001, 12:47 PM
Excellent post JL,
It was similar to the point I was making on another thread this morning. I've seen the comment on this board repeatedly that a "2nd round pick was a small price to pay for getting rid of Gunther." I cringe every time I see that. Folks, King Carl could have fired Gun without giving up draft picks. There were alternatives.
But for the record, even though I think this whole deal was screwed up, beginning to end, I am happy to have Vermeil as our HC. I just hope he lives up to the hype and loss of draft picks.
01-11-2001, 12:48 PM
Vermiel was nothing but a figurehead the year he "won" the Superbowl.
The offense, some of the staff and many of the players were forced on him that year. He was on verge of being fired before that season began if he did not accept the changes made by management.
I am ecstatic that the Stooges were canned. But that was a NO BRAINER! Peterson should've been strung up and shot if he not fire them.
Vermiel was hired because Carl will still have total control and Vermiel is a "big name". He killed two birds w/ one stone. He gets to keep his control and appease many of the fans.
Until Peterson leaves we will always be a mediocre franchise because he does not have his priorities in line.
01-11-2001, 12:55 PM
Prove it. Why did the Rams tailspin this year? Was he a figurehead in Philly? UCLA? He had absolutely nothing to do with the great deal for the Faulk trade? He had no part in reviving a Rams team that had been the Cincinnati Bengals of today for over a decade?
01-11-2001, 12:57 PM
I don't understand how people can be pissed off at this decision. Think of the possibilities. We now have (or will have):
a SB winning coach
vastly improved assistants
an offensive minded coach
an ally to CP, whom he trusts and respects
a team that will almost certainly be more prepared (hey, we might even win a pre-season game, and actually be ready for the season-opener for the first time since Marty).
Some of you wish CP had been adventurous and hired a young college coach or NFL assistant. I am not sure DV is the best man for the job, but I know he's an improvement, and to some extent, we know what we're getting. For every Brian Billick or John Gruden, there's a Chris Palmer or a Mike Riley.
01-11-2001, 12:59 PM
Jeez Cannibal, now you're really reaching.
01-11-2001, 12:59 PM
The Rams "tailspinned" this year because of injuries and complacency. Kurt Warner and Marshall Faulk both missed time due to injuries.
No Vermiel wasn't a figurehead in Philly, but that almost 20 years ago.
01-11-2001, 01:04 PM
Any GM who thinks Vermeil is the 2nd coming and Gunther was just one level below is two tacos short of an enchilada!!!!
01-11-2001, 01:10 PM
Not only that, there are no Brian Billick's out there, and I am a big fan of Brian Billick.
McCarthy, Peyton, Morhenwig (sp) or Kubiak. Those are the hot names amongst offensive coordinators. Kubiak wasn't an option because of loyalty to Shannarat. McCarthy used to be on our staff as a QB coach in the days of Bono and early Grbac days. Peyton is in his first full year as OC of the Giants. Morhenwig had one guy here who predicted he would be a great HC, and he very well may be.
Would these names have gotten you more excited?
Are they going to be great head coaches? Perhaps. Should Carl have considered them? Perhaps. We'll see. If we haven't gotten the ball rolling towards the Bowl during these next few years under Carl, then I think it would be safe to say a new person running the show would be needed. This is Carl's guy. This is what he terms "the premiere head coach in the National Football League." He has absolutely NO EXCUSES now. He must win...
01-11-2001, 01:10 PM
gh: Gunther was fired w/o giving up draft picks. Draft picks came into play w/regard to hiring Vermeil and that was only after Tags enforced the spirit of the STL retirement contract rather than the letter of it.
jl: I dont see how Carl could have fallen back and hired Gun had Tags made them give up even more draft picks. Gun had been fired on Friday and DV was cleared until last night.
01-11-2001, 01:24 PM
I am happy that we are cleaning house. It seems to me that we had a two-year interim staff just holding down the fort until the real staff would be hired. I am cautiously optimistic about Vermiel but I have some worries. Had we talked of hiring Dick prior to last year I would have thought it insane. I perceived him as too old and out of touch. Prior to last year the Rams were a laughing stock and it appeared the players were not responding to Dick and his coaching style. On the other hand the Chiefs havenít even sniffed the playoffs lately and Vermiel won a Superbowl. So I figure we must have upgraded I just wonder how much.
01-11-2001, 01:38 PM
According to Vermiel, he learned a lot and learned on the run his first two years back about how to manage a team and today's players after being away from the game for 14 years, and he said he tweaked his approach. I think he'll be a lot more ready this time around than his first few years in St Louis. But we'll see...
01-11-2001, 01:39 PM
He was on verge of being fired before that season began if he did not accept the changes made by management.
This is nothing more than we said/they said crapola. Rams want it both ways.
When he retires - He was our savior and a city-wide treasure who we loved so much we tore of his contract and paid him a huge honorarium.
When the Chiefs work it out to get him as HC - Oh well, he sucked anyway and we were gonna get rid of him if he hadn't left.
I do know that following the '98 season, things were dim in Ramsland. But the pressure was coming from the players, not management. You guys allude that Lamar and CP don't wanna win, well Rams management [and fans] could still care less about winning. They were all still basking in the glow of even existing.
DV was very Guntheresque in 98. Long hours, full pads, 2-a-days, preaching, yelling and cajoling. The players [Bruce in particular] staged a mutiny when he called a meeting the day after the end of the season. . .
Well I've gone over this before, ad infinitum. Not to be a nattering ninny, but I posted way back when that the hard-nosed preseason was gonna wear on the team more than build it up, that Gun could learn from DV's "road to Damascus." etc., etc.
Point is, DV got over that hump [from coach of the 80's to coach for the new millineum] and led a team on the verge of collapse to the SB. Now he's coming into a much better situation than he did with the Rams and I am excited.
[Edited by JC-Johnny on 01-11-2001 at 01:43 PM]
01-11-2001, 01:47 PM
I think Gunther was fired only when it was clear to Carl and Vermeil that he WOULD coach the Chiefs. At the point that that was in place, and only at that point, Gunther was out. But then the Rams stepped in to block the consummation of the deal w/ Vermeil. That's where we are today.
Let's compare Vermeil and a true figurehead coach, Barry Switzer. All was in place when Switzer became the coach in Dallas--Super Bowl experience, a history of winning, Aikman, Irving, Emmitt, offense, defense. All he did was basically call meetings.
When Vermeil got to St. Louis they had lost any history of winning, they had squandered a lot of talent--Bettis, Troy Drayton, others. At key positions they were in disarray--QB, RB, LB. He was also burdened with a number of problem children--Lawrence Phillips, Kevin Carter, Eddie Kennison.
He didn't cure this by himself, and certainly some of his judgements were off, but it wasn't the arrival of Martz that cured all this either. Vermeil did dispatch many of the "problem children" and tamed the rest. He did hire Martz. He did draft Holt, Pace, Wistrom, Hakim, London, and Bly; and added key free agents like Ray Agnew, Adam Timmerman, and Devin Bush. That's not bad for a "figurehead".
All we are saaaaaaaying, is give Dick a chance.
01-11-2001, 01:48 PM
Yes, the difference is Dick Vermiel learned from his mistakes, listened to his staff and his players, and stepped back and took it easy and enjoyed the job more. He got himself an OC and learned a good OC that you allow to do his job would take a lot of pressure off, and you can concentrate on being a head coach.
Gunther, the guy wanted to do everything, he wanted to tell guys how to run the offense, the defense, what he would have done differently, how he was going to sit in on meetings, coming in at 2 in the morning, etc. Like Will shields said, Gunther wasn't going to learn from critisism, he was just going to take offense at it. I don't think the same can be said of Vermiel...
01-11-2001, 02:35 PM
soliday: You missed a couple of FA's...Faulk and Warner.
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