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redhed
01-11-2001, 12:05 PM
With the hiring of DV, say goodbye to Elvis. KC is so far over the cap, I don't see KC retaining EG. I'm not sure if DV is that enthralled with Elvis anyway. Whaddaya think? Elvis stays or goes?

Spott
01-11-2001, 12:25 PM
I wish he was gone, especially with Brunell being a free agent this year. But I think he'll be back. Carl likes him too much and getting rid of him would mean he would be admitting he made a mistake, something he never does.

Gaz
01-11-2001, 12:39 PM
Show me a reasonable alternative to Grbac and we'll hash it over.

xoxo~
gaz
already considered the Billy Joe Twins.

Spott
01-11-2001, 12:44 PM
Brunell would be my 1st choice. Jacksonville is too far over the cap to be able to afford him and he has very likely played his last game as a Jag. Green & Johnson are possibilities, but I wouldn't get rid of Grbac to get either. St Louis sure as hell won't trade Green to us now so he's not really a possibility.

Coogs
01-11-2001, 12:49 PM
Gaz,

Short term fixes...

Shane Matthews, Bears
Trent Dilfer, possible Bowl QB from Ravens
Jim Harbaugh, Chargers

Any of 3 could take the wheel while youngster from draft is warming up in the pen.

Spott
01-11-2001, 01:01 PM
I might take one of those QB's as a backup to replace Collins. Another backup I'd prefer to see on the roster is Ray Lucas.

Gaz
01-11-2001, 01:07 PM
I agree with mizzou5: those are backups. I would have taken Brunell a year or so ago, but not now. I am no longer intersted in short-term QBs now that we finally have someone I consider to be a good one.

I'll stick with Grbac, thanks.

xoxo~
gaz
aghast at the current paucity of good QBs in the NFL>

Spott
01-11-2001, 01:11 PM
I'm aghast that I had to look up the word paucity to figure out what Gaz was saying.

Baby Lee
01-11-2001, 01:21 PM
You think that's bad? I had to look up aghast!! [totally TIC]

Bob Dole
01-11-2001, 01:26 PM
Bob Dole would prefer that Elvis restructure and we build on what was a playoff-caliber player roster this past season.

MrBlond
01-11-2001, 01:34 PM
Mizzou5,

I agree about Lucas. I am suprised his name is not mentioned more, not just in KC but around the league considering the lack of QB talent. I think he is a young playmaker who could really develop. I love what he did in the last half of 99. He took over a team in disarray and lead them to respectablity.

PRO
Took over the QB reins and led the Jets to an 8-8 finish after a 1-6 start in 1999…a versatile player who has played QB, WR and has been a major contributor on special teams…was thrust into the spotlight in 1999 when he replaced the injured Vinny Testaverde at QB…he responded with a 6-3 record as a starter…career passing stats are 272-161-1,678-14 TD-6 INT…signed with the Jets as a free agent prior to the 1997 season…was originally signed by NE as a rookie FA in 1996 and played in all 3 of the Patriots’ post-season games after the 1996 season, including Super Bowl XXXI…

1999: played in 10 games (9 starts)…ranked 3rd in the AFC with 85.1 passer rating and finished the season 272-161-1,678-14 TD-6 INT…had a 6-3 record as a starter…threw 3 TD, including a 56-yard TD to Dedric Ward to seal a Jets win in game 15 at MIA…was the 1st visiting QB to earn a win in Texas stadium in 1999, finishing with 34-20-229-2 TD-1 INT passing in game 14 at DAL…was 38-22-230-2 TD passing and connected with 9 different receivers in game 13 vs. MIA…had a personal best career day with 48-31-284-4 TD-0 INT in game 12 at NYG…recorded his 1st win as a starter on Monday night in game 9 at NE…finished the night 31-18-153-2 TD-2 INT…made the 1st start of his career and was 30-16-137-1 TD-1 INT in game 6 vs. IND…

1998: played in 15 games...was designated the 2nd QB and saw action on all the special teams units…DNP in the AFC Championship Game at DEN…played on special teams in the Divisional Playoff game vs. JAX...played on special teams and saw late action at QB in game 9 vs. BUF, completing 1 pass for 27 yards…posted 2 special teams tackles in game 6 at NE… saw action at QB as he stepped in for Vinny Testaverde and had 1 run for 3 yards and a 1st down in game 3 vs. IND..

1997: played in 5 games, seeing action as a reserve QB and on special teams…was 3-4-28 passing and 3-30 rushing, but suffered key INT in game 16 loss at DET…had 1 special teams tackle and saw limited time at QB in game 15 vs. TB…had 1 rush for 15 yards and 1 special teams stop in game 12 win vs. MIN…was signed to the Jets active roster on 11/22 after working as a member of the practice squad since the beginning of the season…as member of the practice squad, he ran the scout offense, worked at WR and DB…was signed to the practice squad on 8/26 after being waived by the team in the final cut-down on 8/24…went to training camp with NE but was waived on 8/18 and claimed on waivers by the Jets on 8/19 as a WR...

1996: spent 15 weeks on NE’s practice squad...was activated on 12/12/96 and was active on special teams for the last 2 games of the season and playoff games…played in Super Bowl XXXI, but did not record a tackle…recorded a special teams tackle in divisional playoff game vs. PIT and Championship Game vs. JAX…notched 2 special teams tackles in the season finale against the NYG...made his NFL debut in week 15 vs. DAL where he nearly blocked a James Jett punt.

COLLEGE
A record-setting QB at Rutgers where he posted all-time school marks in career TD passes (43), attempts (908) and completions (514)...his 5,896 passing yards were good for 2nd in Scarlet Knights’ history...also ran for 772 yards and 15 TD on 276 career rushes...as a senior went 188-347-2,180-16 TD.

redhed
01-11-2001, 01:41 PM
The pickin's pretty slim when it comes to FA QBs. I haven't seen anybody yet I'd like in a Chiefs uni.

I'd like to go on record as a Grbacker, not a Grbasher. I'd like to see EG stay, but don't think it's gonna happen. And if Elivs is gone, so is TimmyG.

Bob Dole
01-11-2001, 01:45 PM
There's a month-or-so-old thread on here somewhere where all the FA QBs and decent college prospects are listed...

waKCo
01-11-2001, 01:55 PM
Brunnell?
I cannot believe his name has come up to replace Grbac.
He had one of the best lines, two very good receivers and a very strong running game in 98 and 99 and failed to advance to the superbowl. I believe he is the problem in that offense.
i would give him 5 games to piss off the KC crowd worse than Elvis ever did.

HC_Chief
01-11-2001, 02:09 PM
Dear lord... WTF is wrong with you people?!

Grbac passed for over FOUR THOUSAND YARDS and 28 TDs!!

Payton Manning, Jeff Garcia - only two NFL QBs to throw for more yards; Culpepper, Manning and Garcia were the only QBs in the NFL to throw for more TDs.

It would be <i><b>STUPID</i></b> to get rid of him.

Idahojim
01-11-2001, 02:10 PM
Elvis has said he wants to come back. He's even made statements about next year. Carl wants him back.

Given that, I think odds are he will be back.

And in my opinion, that is good.

redhed
01-11-2001, 08:35 PM
Idaho, I've heard EG won't budge on his 10 mil salary bonus for next year. I don't think Carl will pay up. So I think he's gone.

Bricky
01-11-2001, 09:01 PM
Does anybody know how Elvis' bonus is set up? If he is due the bonus and doesn't restructure, do the Chiefs have to pay? If the Chiefs let him go, will they still have to pay the bonus? How can the Chiefs get out of paying the bonus? Did he use the bonus as leverage to help get a new coach?

As my 5th grader reminds me so frequently .... I am clueless.

ansonsdad
01-11-2001, 09:11 PM
Elvis is due a bonus if he is on our roster on March 1st(?).If he is not on the roster,then no bonus is due,although I am sure the remainder of his signing bous (which is spread throughout the length of his contract)would count against this years (2001) cap.

TEX
01-11-2001, 10:22 PM
What Hard Core said in # 15. You people are just crazy to want to get rid of Grbac.

Pitt Gorilla
01-11-2001, 11:13 PM
From post 1. "KC is so far over the cap, I don't see KC retaining EG"
From post 4. "Brunell would be my 1st choice. Jacksonville is too far over the cap to be able to afford him."

Not that I necessarily disagree with either post, I just found this very amusing!!

Mark M
01-12-2001, 06:25 AM
Bricky--
If I understood the "Salary Cap 101" thread correctly, his $10 million would be spread out over the last years of his contract (which I think is 3 years)...this bonus would be on top of his signing bonus, so with his base salary and bonuses, we're talking $7 million or so against the cap. If he is cut, we don't owe him the roster bonus but all of his signing bonus would count against the cap next year, rather than being spread out over the remaining years. The only way to get out of paying him the $10 million is to cut him before March 1, otherwise we're stuck with it.

As far as him using it as leverage goes, who knows. If he's been watching how Carl negotiates, I wouldn't be surprised if he did.

It's the same problem we have if we cut Chet and Dan Williams. Carl backloaded the contracts knowing that the cap would go up each year. The problem is that he figured they'd pay off with stellar play and perhaps a championship...and we all know that hasn't happened yet. Carl has screwed the organization for several years to come, IMHO.

Someone please correct me if I'm wrong on this. Math wasn't my strongest subject.

Personally, I'd like to see them find a way to keep him...if we cut him, we're still screwed, and we don't have the $$ to get Brunell or Green (so get over it, guys). Lucas is an interesting option, though...any chance of him coming here to be the QBOTF after Elvis? Perhaps he could win a playoff game . . . :)

MM
~~Likes to write, not count.



[Edited by Mark M on 01-12-2001 at 07:30 AM]

waKCo
01-12-2001, 08:15 AM
And I put the blame for Williams and Chester right on their heads. They are the ones who have let us down.

HC_Chief
01-12-2001, 08:27 AM
What? Why, any <i>true</i> <i><b><font color=red>CHIEFS</i></b></font> fan knows that the reason Glock & Williams have not performed to their utmost potential is because Elvis Grbac is not a leader!


:p

redhed
01-12-2001, 08:31 AM
That makes sense to me MarkM! Thanks for splainin' it.

I don't want to see Elvis go anywhere, either!

Brunell & Green won't be Chiefs. I like the Lucas idea.

KCTitus
01-12-2001, 08:35 AM
Couple of points, MM. The 10M, IF paid, as a roster bonus would all count against next years cap. If EG and CP restructure the contract extending the life of the existing contract and including some of those dollars in the form of salary bonus, the number would be reduced.

Could EG demand the bonus or be cut? Sure. Is it likely, no. He could still get 10M in the form of a signing bonus on a new contract and make the contract more cap friendly, like taking the base vet salary, 440K and the allocations of his prior signing bonuses and this one. So instead of a 12-15M cap number, he'd have more like a 4-6 depending upon his actual contract numbers.

redhed
01-12-2001, 08:38 AM
KCTitus focuses the picture a lil' more...

I have heard that EG is amicable to restructuring his contract...

Mark M
01-12-2001, 08:47 AM
Titus--
Thanks for clearing things up. I wasn't sure I had it right, but, hey, I was close! As I was typing it, my brain started to hurt! There is a reason I majored in Englush—er, I mean Inglish—um—oh well, you get the point! ;)

Elvis best restructure that thing, or I now think we will lose him. There is no way we can tie-up almost a sixth of the cap for one player, no matter who he is. No one is worth that kind of cash. Perhaps he will restructure the thing if he's looking forward to playing under Vermeil...the question now is whether or not Vermeil is looking forward to having Elvis play for him. I guess we'll know before March 1. I'd hate to see Carl pull what he did with Vanover and keep Elvis on the roster past that date, only to release him later and we pay the price.

MM
~~Glad someone here can count...and it ain't me.

KCTitus
01-12-2001, 08:52 AM
MM: If EG played hardball for the Bonus, a trade could be our other out w/another team. The trick there would be the team would inherit some of EG's current contract.

On the Vanover thing, Carl and TV did restructure his contract right before the roster bonus was due - I think the bonus was a million or two. He restructured to the league minimum w/ little or no signing bonus. Our cap hit was minimalized.

HC_Chief
01-12-2001, 08:56 AM
It all boils down to one thing: does Elvis want to stay in KC? If he does, he'll restructure; if not, he'll hold strong on his roster bonus.

Personally, I would get the *%&$ out of this town if I were him. The fanbase has given this guy grief since '97. Questioned on toughness - proved pundits wrong. Questioned on maturity - once again, pundits proved wrong. Questioned on ability to put up solid, consistent #s(I was one of these people) - proved wrong. After back-to-back outstanding seasons, some dolts <i>still</i> want his head on a pole. I'd say adios to all the BS, sign with a division rival, and come back and kick this team's arse 2x for 5-10 years.

58Forever
01-12-2001, 08:57 AM
to put it bluntly, any of you who want to get rid of EG are idiots...at least this year...with a new coach, the last thing we need is a new QB throwing to new receivers...it's apparent that DV will implement a new offensive scheme...we need all the continuity we can get and EG throwignt to DA, TG and SM will allow us to keep the rythm...we need EG...and I think he'll restructure his contract but he will also use that 10 mil as leverage to get some thing he wants...but...he better not push the King too far or else he'll be playing for Cleveland next year....:(

[Edited by 58Forever on 01-12-2001 at 10:01 AM]

Mark M
01-12-2001, 09:11 AM
Titus--
(In best Phil Hartman doing Ed McMahon voice) You are correct, sir!

I think Vanover was paid $750,000 for a roster bonus. Not a big cap hit, but it was the principle of the matter: Carl knew Vanover was in trouble (which I find sad—he seemed like a great kid who just got in with the wrong crowd) and he kept him too long. I just don't want to see Carl waiver on Elvis and then we get the shaft. Now that the coaching situation has been solved, the 1st and foremost priority should be getting Elvis' situation fixed. We'll find out if Elvis is like Johnny Damon: someone who says they want to stay, but, in the end, is proven as someone who only cares about money.

58--
I couldn't agree with you more. Great points. I was one of those in '98 calling for the guys head. The last few years I have changed my position. Just give the guy a good QB coach and he could be the Chiefs QB for a long time, IMHO.

MM
~~Knows that things should get very interesting very soon.

redhed
01-12-2001, 10:24 AM
The BIG questions:
1. Does Elvis want to stay here? I think he does. Personally, I'd say scruyew KC!

2. Does DV want him back? The scuttlebutt around KC is that DV doesn't want him here. This should by no means be construed as fact, it just seems to be the prevailing attitude 'round here. DV wants a guy who can be in the shotgun more than EG.

tryin' to clear some haze...

Mark M
01-12-2001, 10:54 AM
red--
I agree. If I were Elvis I'd leave here in a heartbeat after the way I'd been treated by the fans.

Does anyone know why the Chiefs haven't used the shotgun since Elvis has arrived? Is it the offensive system, or can he not catch the ball from center (which I heard was the problem at one time, but find it hard to believe)? And who has the final say on EG, Carl or Dick?

MM
~~Thinks a shotgun could be used more effectively on some Chiefs' players.

58Forever
01-12-2001, 11:38 AM
the shot gun is not used because then the defense would know it is a pass...how could we run up the middle on 3rd and 10 from the shot gun...I think the shot gun would do wonders for EG...and yes, I believe he could handle it...

And why wouldn't DV want EG...he's just like Warner, pure pocket passer...

ck_IN
01-12-2001, 12:11 PM
Ok, now I don't live in the KC area so maybe I've missed something.

That said, where does the talk about DV wanting or not wanting EG come from? <b>I</b> haven't heard any press conferences staing one way or the other. EG is the same type of passer as Warner so the precident is there. Can anyone document a single statement from DV or the Chiefs stating that they are thinking beyond EG?

After all the garbage he's dealt with from the 'fans', I wouldn't blame him for moving on. But I haven't heard a single thing stating this on his or the Chiefs part.

redhed
01-12-2001, 12:47 PM
ck: I'm talking 'bout water cooler stuff. I don't think anybody in the Chiefs org. has said anything like that. It's just a general feeling amongst local fans. Sorry if unclear.