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View Full Version : Our SEMA Car. Your Thoughts?


Detoxing
11-05-2006, 04:45 PM
Hello, i just got back from SEMA a few days ago and googled our SEMA vehicle to find that we are now all over the internet. Its pretty exciting knowing that our teams (CoupeR Design) work is being viewed by many. I dont have any personal photos of the car but there are tons floating around on the net. What do you guys honestly think of our mustang?

http://www.fast-autos.net/vehicles/CoupeR_Design/1967/Obsidian_SG_One/

scott free
11-05-2006, 04:48 PM
In a word......Brutal!!!

Detoxing
11-05-2006, 04:51 PM
In a word......Brutal!!!

Thank you, Agressive was the look we were going for.

Deberg_1990
11-05-2006, 04:55 PM
Not to be negative, but this sort of stuff is why Americans will never get over their addiction to oil and gasoline.

UteChief
11-05-2006, 04:57 PM
I will trade you straight across for an 05 Accord Coupe.

Please see Debeg_1990's post.

luv
11-05-2006, 04:59 PM
Niiiice.

No picture under the hood, or did I overlook it?

Detoxing
11-05-2006, 05:00 PM
Because they cant get over there addiction to speed and custom cars?

Brock
11-05-2006, 05:03 PM
You outdid yourself with that one.

Detoxing
11-05-2006, 05:04 PM
Niiiice.

No picture under the hood, or did I overlook it?

that site may not of had it. Under the hood is Twin Rotrex superchargers with custom Spearco Intercoolers and a cutom Hogan's racing manifold. The block is a 351 stroked to a 392. If you look on google, search under CoupeR design Obsidian. there are tons more pics. I spent a week on just the block making it as glossy as the paint on the car.

LocoChiefsFan
11-05-2006, 05:06 PM
here it is. You have to click ''view gallery''
http://www.fast-autos.net/data/images/35503.jpg

Rausch
11-05-2006, 05:06 PM
Work of art.

But if it can't run on urine and empty cigarette packs I'm unimpressed...

luv
11-05-2006, 05:08 PM
here it is. You have to click ''view gallery''
Beautiful. That is art. Completes the masterpiece.

Detoxing
11-05-2006, 05:09 PM
This car came down the wire. We completed it in 4 months and we were actually late to the show. I didnt sleep for hte final 3 days before the show, and the painter/lead body fabricator didnt go home for 5 days and only took small naps. It was crazy

Phobia
11-05-2006, 05:12 PM
Bad. What's that thing worth? $75k?

Detoxing
11-05-2006, 05:17 PM
Bad. What's that thing worth? $75k?

build cost was 400k and estimated value is around 800k The engine alone was 70k. This car uses all top of the line products. The most extreme and effeceint you can buy. If you guys want me to rant on about what is on this car, i can, though some of you will probably be unimpressed if you dont know what im talking about.

Deberg_1990
11-05-2006, 05:37 PM
Because they cant get over there addiction to speed and custom cars?

Well thats some of it..but not all.

Its just that everyone complains about the price of gas, but yet we continue to consume it at an all time high. Addiction to muscle cars and speed, SUV's.....etc....

We cant have our cake and eat it too.

Detoxing
11-05-2006, 05:44 PM
Well thats some of it..but not all.

Its just that everyone complains about the price of gas, but yet we continue to consume it at an all time high. Addiction to muscle cars and speed, SUV's.....etc....

We cant have our cake and eat it too.

I agree. trust me though, the owner of this car wont spend much time bitching about gas prices. I personally always find it funny when V8 drivers complain about gas prices. If you cant manage an extra few cents a gallon than you have no buisness driving a 40k sports car/SUV

Phobia
11-05-2006, 08:30 PM
It's a cool car, but it's not $800k cool. That's just crazy.

But, that's not a dig. The car is incredible. It's obviously a work of art.

Sure-Oz
11-05-2006, 08:35 PM
Pretty badass, just not diggin the hood that might be the only thing imo, if it was all black on the hood and flattened, but i can't tell by the angle of the cars if it requires the air dam/scoop. I would def love to see it in person though.

TinyEvel
11-05-2006, 08:37 PM
NIIIICE! What part did you have in building this work of ass-kicking art?

ccsells
11-05-2006, 08:57 PM
Without seeing the red "R" tag, I'd say the Brembo's should've been coated black, but it really works the way you have it. It this hand-built EFI we're seeing here or just a HUGE intake (perfect SAW welding - I assume)? Love seeing old muscle done over with modern handling / powertrain equipment to make them just-plain-comfortable. But 800K - bejeesus!

Tinlar
11-05-2006, 10:00 PM
you know, if you haev an extra one of thos sitting around I'm gonna be looking for a vacation car for my family soon... maybe I could sell my wife on it...

Detoxing
11-06-2006, 12:03 AM
Pretty badass, just not diggin the hood that might be the only thing imo, if it was all black on the hood and flattened, but i can't tell by the angle of the cars if it requires the air dam/scoop. I would def love to see it in person though.

The Large hood scoop is very much required, otherwise we could not fit the engine in there that way. The firewall had to be pushed back another 2 inches to fit everything in the bay.

Sure-Oz
11-06-2006, 12:08 AM
The Large hood scoop is very much required, otherwise we could not fit the engine in there that way. The firewall had to be pushed back another 2 inches to fit everything in the bay.
Yeah i saw the engine pic after my post, pretty damn sick and def. explains why you guys had it made that way. I would def. love to be driving that machine, very impressive, and possibly the best stang i've seen.

Detoxing
11-06-2006, 12:19 AM
Without seeing the red "R" tag, I'd say the Brembo's should've been coated black, but it really works the way you have it. It this hand-built EFI we're seeing here or just a HUGE intake (perfect SAW welding - I assume)? Love seeing old muscle done over with modern handling / powertrain equipment to make them just-plain-comfortable. But 800K - bejeesus!


The Brembos are for show only. The final version of the car will actually be fitted with 6 piston calipers that are brushed aluminum to match the exterior trim. YOu are seeing a huge custom Intake from Hogans racing, designed to our exact specs. A one off piece. I know people may not see 800k when they see this car, but this car is worth so much (and others like it) because of the craftsmanship. Some people may not understand the work involved in a car like this. Those that do, are very willing to pay top dollar. The hot rod industry is a buisness, not just a hobby. Vehicles like these always have a return investment.
About 6k man hours were logged into this car over 4 months@ $75 an hour. And those are just in house man hours and not all hours were billed to the customer in order to keep the car under budget, there were some things taken outside of our shop as well. If i were to explain all the non aesthetic things involved in this vehicle, it would be a damn long post. Its a crazy industry, people pay much more for much less of a car. If anyone would like, i can go into a complete detail of what is in this car, it will blow your mind. It is the ULTIMATE man car in every way. Also, to whomever asked what i did on this car, i am a body fabricator and 1st assistant to the lead fabricator.

SBK
11-06-2006, 12:49 AM
I love it, but for 800 grand I like a Carerra GT and an SLR.

Great work though.

dtebbe
11-06-2006, 08:45 AM
I just don't understand the whole resto-rod/resto-mod thing. In the end you have an old car with a bunch of new parts.

I'd take the 800k and buy a fleet....

DT

Detoxing
06-10-2011, 02:11 PM
Ok, gotta get few things to get off my chest here.

The myth of this car has grown to epic proportions. There is SOO much misinformation out there. I haven't googled this car in years. I did today and, wow.

It's both infuriating and flattering. There are just pages upon pages upon pages of "information" on google about this thing.

I've come across Fan photoshops, animated gifs, fan videos, downloadable wallpapers...it's on countless forums in countless countries. It's crazy how big this car blew up. It's nice and all, but with it comes so much misinformation.

It pisses me off some of the things that are said about it. Here are a few of my favorite comments/myths I've picked out.

1. "It cost 1.3 Mill to build"....Where the **** did that come from? Seriously it's all over the freaking place. NO ONE EVER SAID THAT. The owner wanted to sell it for 1.3 Mill. It didn't COST 1.3 Mill to build.

2. "It cost 1.3 Mill to build because it's made out of Actual Obsidian Rock"....Seriously dude? C'mon.

3. "It was built by the Ringbrothers".....We put our ****ing name on the fender and you guys still can't figure out who built the ****ing car? JFC....

4. "That ain't nothing, I could build that car for under 100K"....****a, you can't even BUY THE PARTS for 100K. STFU

5. "It's just another trailer queen"....We beat the **** out of this car. We even beat the **** out of it and put it on YouTube just to silence the haters and they STILL write this shit. This car is NOT a trailer queen. It's been raced, dyno'd multiple times and even track tested by a pro F1 Driver. Suck it.

6. "it's riced out with that TV in the car".....It's not a TV. It's an all in one computer control system. It does everything from GPS/DVD to on board diagnostics and tunning....and check your email if you had to.

7. "My Evo can do a 0-60 in 4 seconds too"......That's great...but it's a ****ing evo and it's worth like 10K. STFU.

Argh.....Rant semi over i guess....

MOhillbilly
06-10-2011, 02:18 PM
ghey

Detoxing
06-10-2011, 02:20 PM
ghey

IF it were your work i'm sure you'd feel otherwise.

MOhillbilly
06-10-2011, 02:24 PM
IF it were your work i'm sure you'd feel otherwise.
Looks like the handikid from south park made it.
blowin smoke, Hoss.

Detoxing
06-10-2011, 02:30 PM
Wow. Just found someone trying to do an emulation of our car. That's pretty freakin' cool

http://img543.imageshack.us/img543/9278/obsidian4.jpg (http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/543/obsidian4.jpg/)

MIAdragon
06-10-2011, 02:46 PM
The one question I have is why the F did you put the two air to air intercoolers ON TOP of the motor. I cant see them doing anything but heating the incoming air. If they were air to water ok are there fans on the opp side atleast?

CrazyPhuD
06-10-2011, 02:48 PM
Meh it's ok, besides my Yugo can go 0-60 in under 3s.

Detoxing
06-10-2011, 02:51 PM
The one question I have is why the F did you put the two air to air intercoolers ON TOP of the motor. I cant see them doing anything but heating the incoming air. If they were air to water ok are there fans on the opp side atleast?

We use to get that question a lot. Honestly, it's purely aesthetics.

HOWEVER, it still functions properly. The hood scoop is vented not only on the front, but on both sides. The air charge temp was never an issue at the test track, even @ 98 degree weather.

Also keep in mind that these are Superchargers, not Turbos. Heat soaking the intercoolers is not nearly the concern that it would be with Turbos.

Rain Man
06-10-2011, 02:52 PM
Have you considered painting it apricot?

CrazyPhuD
06-10-2011, 02:54 PM
The one question I have is why the F did you put the two air to air intercoolers ON TOP of the motor. I cant see them doing anything but heating the incoming air. If they were air to water ok are there fans on the opp side atleast?

In an actual honest response, assuming they haven't just put an obnoxiously large radiator on it and they need that size(dual SC they might). If you put Air/Air ICs in front of a radiator in a traditional configuration you can significantly reduce the airflow to the radiator which will reduce cooling capacity. On the street or the drag strip it may not matter much, but if you take it to a real track you'll need the cooling capacity. Many cars do a 'V' radiator config now to allow pretty good airflow to both the IC and the radiator. Doesn't look like they have enough space for that setup so they did the next best thing by placing the ICs up top and in the airflow off the hood.

DJ's left nut
06-10-2011, 02:54 PM
Ah the '67 fastback....

Best Mustang ever built, IMO. Unfortunately they started getting bigger and by 1970 the damn things were just boats that went fast so long as you didn't try to turn them.

Nice lookin' Pony.

vailpass
06-10-2011, 02:55 PM
Congrats on your project. Honest question:
I go to Barrett Jackson every year and have seen some absolute cherry one-of-a-kind rides go for a whole hell of a lot less than $800k.
What type of buyer takes cars like these? Will it be at Barrett-Jackson next January?

Detoxing
06-10-2011, 02:57 PM
In an actual honest response, assuming they haven't just put an obnoxiously large radiator on it and they need that size(dual SC they might). If you put Air/Air ICs in front of a radiator in a traditional configuration you can significantly reduce the airflow to the radiator which will reduce cooling capacity. On the street or the drag strip it may not matter much, but if you take it to a real track you'll need the cooling capacity. Many cars do a 'V' radiator config now to allow pretty good airflow to both the IC and the radiator. Doesn't look like they have enough space for that setup so they did the next best thing by placing the ICs up top and in the airflow off the hood.

It runs a 31" aluminum crossflow radiator with dual electric fans. the Fans combined pull 4K CFM

CrazyPhuD
06-10-2011, 02:59 PM
We use to get that question a lot. Honestly, it's purely aesthetics.

HOWEVER, it still functions properly. The hood scoop is vented not only on the front, but on both sides. The air charge temp was never an issue at the test track, even @ 98 degree weather.

Also keep in mind that these are Superchargers, not Turbos. Heat soaking the intercoolers is not nearly the concern that it would be with Turbos.

Or that LMAO

I am guessing even your SC choice was an aesthetics choice rather than a practical one. Given a V8 one would normally expect a roots style charger since it complements the low end TQ of a v8 yet you use dual centrifugal SC's which generally are more 'peaky' i.e. they build optimal boost at high RPMS which is not generally where many V8s are designed to operate. Of course you could have one setup to boost early and one set up to boost late, but that seems more complicated than needed.

DJ's left nut
06-10-2011, 03:01 PM
Wait, if you've taken it to SEMA, you've run some autocross events with it, no? You spend any time on the protouring website? Ever see Bad Penny in person (that car gets me hard)?

Those boys are batshit crazy.

CrazyPhuD
06-10-2011, 03:04 PM
Wait, if you've taken it to SEMA, you've run some autocross events with it, no? You spend any time on the protouring website? Ever see Bad Penny in person (that car gets me hard)?

Those boys are batshit crazy.

Heh I would be curious if they've autoX'd it, I could see them tracking on a road course but in an autoX, given the chassis and the power I would expect that car to be a REAL handful.

CrazyHorse
06-10-2011, 03:07 PM
1st let me say, wow! What an effort it took to not only put this car together, but to design a working model for what you wanted. No one knows better than I about making something work that no one has tried before. My little mustang has a ton of custom work in it that is unseen. By design.

I like the stance of the car. It has a very aggressive look. It almost looks as if the car is moving even wwhen its parked. That is the look I try to achieve when setting up my car.

We do see some things different however. As some have said, the hood I dont care that much for, but I also understand that function before form is a choice in a build. I generally choose function over form. I see by the aluminum fab work that it had to be a tall hood. I would be curious to see what you guys would have come up with in a shaker type hood. Not sure how I feel about the duct location on the fenders. But I like how you tied them in with the hood. Dont like the front apron at all. It seems like its on the wrong car. But thats just me being critical. This car is fantastic. Of the 2 or 3 things I might have done different, there are 50 things that are home runs.

Listen, Ive seen some amazing cars in my time. This is one of them. You will never find anyone who wont find something they dont like or would have done differently. It looks like you threw a lot of money at it. It also looks like there was a lot of effoert put into it. In the end you've built a world class hot rod.

Congrats!

Nice work!

Detoxing
06-10-2011, 03:10 PM
Congrats on your project. Honest question:
I go to Barrett Jackson every year and have seen some absolute cherry one-of-a-kind rides go for a whole hell of a lot less than $800k.
What type of buyer takes cars like these? Will it be at Barrett-Jackson next January?

Barret Jackson is a rip off.

We never take cars to Barret Jackson. You RARELY get even close to what you put into the vehicle.

The only cars that do well at BJ are extremely rare models. our close partners the Ring Brothers had a customer spend nearly 400K with them on a car. That same customer took it to Barret Jackson and only got a shade over 150K for it.

The type of buyer for cars like these?

The incredibly wealthy. This particular car was built for a Las Vegas Real Estate Tycoon. We just finished a 300K car for another guy that made a fortune building shopping centers etc in Louisville KY.

These kinda guys are the guys who don't want just another Lambo because, as they say, any guy with money can go buy one. They want something hand crafted, rare and nearly impossible to get.

CrazyHorse
06-10-2011, 03:11 PM
Ah the '67 fastback....

Best Mustang ever built, IMO. Unfortunately they started getting bigger and by 1970 the damn things were just boats that went fast so long as you didn't try to turn them.

Nice lookin' Pony.

You couldnt turn em in 65 either. You would think because they were small, they handled. Not so. Not even for thier time. They handled like row boats.You have to do a lot of chassis work along with complete suspension over haul to achieve even decent handling.

Detoxing
06-10-2011, 03:13 PM
Or that LMAO

I am guessing even your SC choice was an aesthetics choice rather than a practical one. Given a V8 one would normally expect a roots style charger since it complements the low end TQ of a v8 yet you use dual centrifugal SC's which generally are more 'peaky' i.e. they build optimal boost at high RPMS which is not generally where many V8s are designed to operate. Of course you could have one setup to boost early and one set up to boost late, but that seems more complicated than needed.

Wow. Very nice dude!

Nailed it. I usually have to explain that to everyone. This Mustang was designed to be street driveable. The goal was to have a vehicle that was mild on the street until you opened it up.

Which is exactly what we accomplished.

CrazyHorse
06-10-2011, 03:14 PM
Barret Jackson is a rip off.

We never take cars to Barret Jackson. You RARELY get even close to what you put into the vehicle.

The only cars that do well at BJ are extremely rare models. our close partners the Ring Brothers had a customer spend nearly 400K with them on a car. That same customer took it to Barret Jackson and only got a shade over 150K for it.

The type of buyer for cars like these?

The incredibly wealthy. This particular car was built for a Las Vegas Real Estate Tycoon. We just finished a 300K car for another guy that made a fortune building shopping centers etc in Louisville KY.

These kinda guys are the guys who don't want just another Lambo because, as they say, any guy with money can go buy one. They want something hand crafted, rare and nearly impossible to get.

Alot of the BJ cars are what I call 30 footers. They look better from 30 feet than they do from 3 feet. Those cars are lit and shown in the best light. Not to say there arent some cars done right. But sometimes they look like more than what they are. If you restore a car to sell it, its hard to make money on it unless you do a cheap paintjob and a tune up. More than that and you start losing money on it.

CrazyPhuD
06-10-2011, 03:16 PM
You couldnt turn em in 65 either. You would think because they were small, they handled. Not so. Not even for thier time. They handled like row boats.You have to do a lot of chassis work along with complete suspension over haul to achieve even decent handling.

Ok so honest question then, since I'm not personally that well versed in old school american muscle. My perception is most were great in a straight line because of motor/tranny/rearend, but generally the chassis's were way too soft to handle well. Is there any of the old school muscle that has a pretty stiff stock chassis? Or do most of them require quite a bit of work to get them responsive?

Detoxing
06-10-2011, 03:21 PM
Heh I would be curious if they've autoX'd it, I could see them tracking on a road course but in an autoX, given the chassis and the power I would expect that car to be a REAL handful.

It's honestly not. We removed the factory firewall and pushed it back 2", allowing us to move the entire drive train back. We built an aluminum belly pan under the car and pushed everything up.

The bottom of the car is completely flat. As I'm sure Crazyhorse can agree, typically the oil pans on these cars hang down low as well as other components, so getting it flat on the bottom took a redesign of the Chassis.

We built new frame rails in the front and completely redesigned the chassis in the back. That's how we're able to get that slammed look w/o using air bag or sacraficing ground clearance.

The best thing about this car is that it looks lower than it is. We moved the suspension up allowing us to tuck the wheels under the frame. This car does not scrape on the ground. you could drive this thing over speed bumps and not worry about bottoming out. My T/A can't handle our driveway, but this thing can.

Also, by moving the engine back, we were able to get a nearly perfect 50/50 weight distribution.

That coupled with a double adjustable McPherson strut and 3 link rear suspension, it hooks and handles very well.

Detoxing
06-10-2011, 03:22 PM
Ok so honest question then, since I'm not personally that well versed in old school american muscle. My perception is most were great in a straight line because of motor/tranny/rearend, but generally the chassis's were way too soft to handle well. Is there any of the old school muscle that has a pretty stiff stock chassis? Or do most of them require quite a bit of work to get them responsive?

In my expereince, they all suck. Especially Mustangs. They're garbage.

Detoxing
06-10-2011, 03:25 PM
1st let me say, wow! What an effort it took to not only put this car together, but to design a working model for what you wanted. No one knows better than I about making something work that no one has tried before. My little mustang has a ton of custom work in it that is unseen. By design.

I like the stance of the car. It has a very aggressive look. It almost looks as if the car is moving even wwhen its parked. That is the look I try to achieve when setting up my car.

We do see some things different however. As some have said, the hood I dont care that much for, but I also understand that function before form is a choice in a build. I generally choose function over form. I see by the aluminum fab work that it had to be a tall hood. I would be curious to see what you guys would have come up with in a shaker type hood. Not sure how I feel about the duct location on the fenders. But I like how you tied them in with the hood. Dont like the front apron at all. It seems like its on the wrong car. But thats just me being critical. This car is fantastic. Of the 2 or 3 things I might have done different, there are 50 things that are home runs.

Listen, Ive seen some amazing cars in my time. This is one of them. You will never find anyone who wont find something they dont like or would have done differently. It looks like you threw a lot of money at it. It also looks like there was a lot of effoert put into it. In the end you've built a world class hot rod.

Congrats!

Nice work!


I appreciate it. A lot of people don't like the hood, and honestly, I'd change it too. It's my least favorite part of the car. When people don't like the looks, that doesn't bother me at all.

It's when they ramble on about the functionality like they know what they're talking about when they really dont that irks me.

If you don't mind me asking, what kind of mods are on your Mustang?

Detoxing
06-10-2011, 03:27 PM
Ok so honest question then, since I'm not personally that well versed in old school american muscle. My perception is most were great in a straight line because of motor/tranny/rearend, but generally the chassis's were way too soft to handle well. Is there any of the old school muscle that has a pretty stiff stock chassis? Or do most of them require quite a bit of work to get them responsive?

True. Espeically in today's economy. 7-8 years ago though we were pitching these cars as "investments" because people could usually make money off of them once they were built.

Not even close now.

CrazyHorse
06-10-2011, 03:29 PM
Ok so honest question then, since I'm not personally that well versed in old school american muscle. My perception is most were great in a straight line because of motor/tranny/rearend, but generally the chassis's were way too soft to handle well. Is there any of the old school muscle that has a pretty stiff stock chassis? Or do most of them require quite a bit of work to get them responsive?

Most require a lot of work. In those days they set up a car for those that didn't know how to drive them. Plus a soft ride is what everyone thought they wanted. And finally, the technology just wasn't there.

One example was the Shelbys. They had a little suspension work done to help them. On the 65 and 66s they dropped the upper A arm to give the car negative camber. This made the car steering perfrom better, but you had to be more skillful to drive the car. The original car was set up for understeer and by doing the shelby drop it had a tendency to oversteer. Oversteer is always better IMO.

Detoxing
06-10-2011, 03:29 PM
Wait, if you've taken it to SEMA, you've run some autocross events with it, no? You spend any time on the protouring website? Ever see Bad Penny in person (that car gets me hard)?

Those boys are batshit crazy.

Most shops that display at SEMA don't participate in the AutoX events. SEMA is a trade show by nature, so the AutoX portion is just for fun. You usually see more of the true drift cars participating in it, rarely do you see cars like these out there.

vailpass
06-10-2011, 03:31 PM
Alot of the BJ cars are what I call 30 footers. They look better from 30 feet than they do from 3 feet. Those cars are lit and shown in the best light. Not to say there arent some cars done right. But sometimes they look like more than what they are. If you restore a car to sell it, its hard to make money on it unless you do a cheap paintjob and a tune up. More than that and you start losing money on it.

But it is one hell of a party.

vailpass
06-10-2011, 03:31 PM
Barret Jackson is a rip off.

We never take cars to Barret Jackson. You RARELY get even close to what you put into the vehicle.

The only cars that do well at BJ are extremely rare models. our close partners the Ring Brothers had a customer spend nearly 400K with them on a car. That same customer took it to Barret Jackson and only got a shade over 150K for it.

The type of buyer for cars like these?

The incredibly wealthy. This particular car was built for a Las Vegas Real Estate Tycoon. We just finished a 300K car for another guy that made a fortune building shopping centers etc in Louisville KY.

These kinda guys are the guys who don't want just another Lambo because, as they say, any guy with money can go buy one. They want something hand crafted, rare and nearly impossible to get.


Got it, thanks. Sounds like you guys are niche specialists. Too bad, BJ is one hell of a good time.

CrazyHorse
06-10-2011, 03:41 PM
I appreciate it. A lot of people don't like the hood, and honestly, I'd change it too. It's my least favorite part of the car. When people don't like the looks, that doesn't bother me at all.

It's when they ramble on about the functionality like they know what they're talking about when they really dont that irks me.

If you don't mind me asking, what kind of mods are on your Mustang?

One of the most extensive mods is that we put 67 shock towers in a 65 engine bay. So I could put the 351 block in it with plenty of room for headers, while retaining the original 65 look. It pushed the wheel out 2 inches on both sides. So we changed the control are to 67 as well and had to change the strut rods and braces to keep correct geometry. Becuase of that, I had to find a zero offset disc brake set up because disc brakes also push the wheels out. I couldn't afford to push the wheels any further or I couldnt get them under the car. In the end I have

67
Shock towers
Strut rods
Strut braces
Upper and lower control arms.
Power Rack and pinion goin in next week

65
620 lb coil springs 1 inch drop
Roller bearing perches

71
V8 disc brake spindles

And a 1 inch Shelby drop

It all started because I was trying to keep it looking original under the hood. 99% of people never notice there has been anything changed at all.

CrazyPhuD
06-10-2011, 03:42 PM
Most require a lot of work. In those days they set up a car for those that didn't know how to drive them. Plus a soft ride is what everyone thought they wanted. And finally, the technology just wasn't there.

One example was the Shelbys. They had a little suspension work done to help them. On the 65 and 66s they dropped the upper A arm to give the car negative camber. This made the car steering perfrom better, but you had to be more skillful to drive the car. The original car was set up for understeer and by doing the shelby drop it had a tendency to oversteer. Oversteer is always better IMO.

Heh oversteer is faster, understeer is 'safer'. I will say there is just something wrong about a RWD car having understeer. But then again I learned in HS on my mom's old 94 mustang GT. I remember one time in lawrence slamming the throttle mid left turn and proceeding to fishtail across 4 lanes of road! LMAO You learn respect and car control real quick!

Which is funny my current car people bitch about it being twitchy(honda s2k), the sad thing is, this is one of the most in control RWD cars I've owned. In response to people saying it's twitchy(which I've never felt), I decided to test it. Mid turn I lifted the throttle and then mashed it, as expected the back end started to rotate, but back off the throttle just a bit and counter and the backend came right back around. I have a feeling that most people think the car is twitchy because they are used to driving FWD civics!

This is one of the things that make me sad/concerned about the CAFE BS, the potentially to get rid of a number of RWD cars and V8's at the same time for fuel efficiency reasons.

Detoxing
06-10-2011, 03:44 PM
One of the most extensive mods is that we put 67 shock towers in a 65 engine bay. So I could put the 351 block in it with plenty of room for headers, while retaining the original 65 look. It pushed the wheel out 2 inches on both sides. So we changed the control are to 67 as well and had to change the strut rods and braces to keep correct geometry. Becuase of that, I had to find a zero offset disc brake set up because disc brakes also push the wheels out. I couldn't afford to push the wheels any further or I couldnt get them under the car. In the end I have

67
Shock towers
Strut rods
Strut braces
Upper and lower control arms.
Power Rack and pinion goin in next week

65
620 lb coil springs 1 inch drop
Roller bearing perches

71
V8 disc brake spindles

And a 1 inch Shelby drop

It all started because I was trying to keep it looking original under the hood. 99% of people never notice there has been anything changed at all.

Nice. That's a lot of cutting and welding. How'd you remove the shock towers? Did you drill through the pinch welds or chop em off?

Also, what rack do you plan on using?

Detoxing
06-10-2011, 03:47 PM
Heh oversteer is faster, understeer is 'safer'. I will say there is just something wrong about a RWD car having understeer. But then again I learned in HS on my mom's old 94 mustang GT. I remember one time in lawrence slamming the throttle mid left turn and proceeding to fishtail across 4 lanes of road! LMAO You learn respect and car control real quick!

Which is funny my current car people bitch about it being twitchy(honda s2k), the sad thing is, this is one of the most in control RWD cars I've owned. In response to people saying it's twitchy(which I've never felt), I decided to test it. Mid turn I lifted the throttle and then mashed it, as expected the back end started to rotate, but back off the throttle just a bit and counter and the backend came right back around. I have a feeling that most people think the car is twitchy because they are used to driving FWD civics!

This is one of the things that make me sad/concerned about the CAFE BS, the potentially to get rid of a number of RWD cars and V8's at the same time for fuel efficiency reasons.

That's kinda funny.

I have a hard time adjusting to FWD cars because of the understeer. I almost threw a new Mitsu Eclipse up onto a curb because of it, lol

The sales man said, "Go ahead, test it out, see how well it handles!"

me being so use to my T/A, tried to take the corner the same way....nope...didn't happen.

I also hate the Torque steer that these newer higher HP FWD cars have.

CrazyPhuD
06-10-2011, 03:53 PM
That's kinda funny.

I have a hard time adjusting to FWD cars because of the understeer. I almost through a new Mitsu Eclipse up onto a curb because of it, lol

The sales man said, "Go ahead, test it out, see how well it handles!"

me being so use to my T/A, tried to take the corner the same way....nope...didn't happen.

I also hate the Torque steer that these newer higher HP FWD cars have.

Yea plus you have all of the electronic assistance now that takes some of the fun out of driving. It's faster no doubt but that doesn't make it better. Hell people bitch about cars not having traction control. I'm like wtf are you talking about every car has traction control. It's called your right foot.

It's getting harder and harder to find cars that let you play on the edge too many are too conservative with the traction/stability control.

CrazyHorse
06-10-2011, 04:04 PM
Nice. That's a lot of cutting and welding. How'd you remove the shock towers? Did you drill through the pinch welds or chop em off?

Also, what rack do you plan on using?

I currently have a unisteer manual rack in it. The reson for the change to power is because the manual is 4 turns lock to lock. Tooooooooo Sloooooow. The power rack is 2.5 turns lock to lock. That should bring the car into the 21st century.

Drilled the welds out.

Detoxing
06-10-2011, 04:09 PM
I currently have a unisteer manual rack in it. The reson for the change to power is because the manual is 4 turns lock to lock. Tooooooooo Sloooooow. The power rack is 2.5 turns lock to lock. That should bring the car into the 21st century.

Drilled the welds out.

Nice.

I love fabricated Valve covers. None look better IMO. So you're going with a Unisteer power rack? Is that a March kit I see on the front? Who's Monte Carlo and Export Brace is that? Custom? Almost looks like a TCP unit.

Mr. Laz
06-10-2011, 04:12 PM
Niiiice.

No picture under the hood, or did I overlook it?
is this a girl version of "Tits or GFTO"?

:hmmm:

Dave Lane
06-10-2011, 05:00 PM
Too fat /omaha

MIAdragon
06-10-2011, 05:21 PM
Wait, if you've taken it to SEMA, you've run some autocross events with it, no? You spend any time on the protouring website? Ever see Bad Penny in person (that car gets me hard)?

Those boys are batshit crazy.

Bad Penny is sick, Im still in love with Big Red, god I want that car.

MIAdragon
06-10-2011, 05:35 PM
Or that LMAO

I am guessing even your SC choice was an aesthetics choice rather than a practical one. Given a V8 one would normally expect a roots style charger since it complements the low end TQ of a v8 yet you use dual centrifugal SC's which generally are more 'peaky' i.e. they build optimal boost at high RPMS which is not generally where many V8s are designed to operate. Of course you could have one setup to boost early and one set up to boost late, but that seems more complicated than needed.

My V8 redlines just under 7K no problem with RPM's there. As for the choice of forced induction the problem you run into with a roots or positive displacement blower are the insane air intake times (they are killing me right now). Most V8s have ZERO issues with low end TQ so the Centrifical setups (and turbos) are a great fit. As for the peakyness of the Centrifical setups thats not really the case, while the boos curve is not linear as with the roots/PD's it mirrors a NA curve. All blowers are run off a pulley system you really cant pick when boost comes in.


That setup is all aesthetic from the dual blowers to the intercooler placement and type. It sure is pretty though!

Detoxing
06-10-2011, 05:40 PM
That setup is all aesthetic from the dual blowers to the intercooler placement and type. It sure is pretty though!

Pretty much. Just wanted to do something no one else had really done before. How often do you see dual centrifugal superchargers like that?

Still damn functional though. It make almost 800 HP at the wheels with only 14 lbs boost combined. With the capacity to run more.

rtmike
06-10-2011, 06:17 PM
Is it running yet? How do you move a car around @ SEMA if it doesn't run?

Strictly man power?

Wicked ride dude.

http://i116.photobucket.com/albums/o5/woodencoop/sema2006038.jpg

CrazyHorse
06-10-2011, 06:31 PM
Nice.

I love fabricated Valve covers. None look better IMO. So you're going with a Unisteer power rack? Is that a March kit I see on the front? Who's Monte Carlo and Export Brace is that? Custom? Almost looks like a TCP unit.

Dont remember on the braces. Searched a long time for them though. It wasn't a brand name though. It was the only one that would work becuse all the ohers would hit this or not clear that. This one was just right and its a nice looking piece. Since the picture I polised the shock tower brackets.

I have another set of covers that I just had ingraved. They are like these but have crazyhorse engraved in them.
Yes the pulleys are march. Im gonna have to get a double crank pulley fo thr new power steering though.

Here's an idea of what the other valve covers look like. Ive been waiting to put them on when I reset the valves. The motor is fresh and I have roller mechanical stuff in it. Thinking of doing it this weekend.

This car is my daily driver believe it or not.

Who's hinges are those? How much? And are the fiberglass friendly? In other words, are they too stiff foe flimsy fiberglass? I need a prop rod to hold my hood open more than half way. My spings are weak so the hood dont crack.

CrazyPhuD
06-10-2011, 06:38 PM
My V8 redlines just under 7K no problem with RPM's there. As for the choice of forced induction the problem you run into with a roots or positive displacement blower are the insane air intake times (they are killing me right now). Most V8s have ZERO issues with low end TQ so the Centrifical setups (and turbos) are a great fit. As for the peakyness of the Centrifical setups thats not really the case, while the boos curve is not linear as with the roots/PD's it mirrors a NA curve. All blowers are run off a pulley system you really cant pick when boost comes in.


That setup is all aesthetic from the dual blowers to the intercooler placement and type. It sure is pretty though!

Well to me <7K redline is still pretty low, it's no diesel redline of course but I prefer mine 8K+ even the v8's. So my issue with a centrifugal blower on a v8 depends partially on the design of the v8 of course. If your v8 breathes well naturally then sure a centrifugal SC is a fine choice. The problem is many V8 don't breathe that well up top, they are designed to provide more low end grunt and they run out of air at the high RPMS. While a centrifugal charger can compensate somewhat for that, it does so in a relatively inefficient way. If you have restrictions at high RPMS, while boost will help raise the power, it will do so a less efficiency than it would in an engine that naturally breathes better at high RPMS.

The real question is, where is the meat of your power band and what RPM range do you really expect to live at? Since the centrifugal is really only efficient when running in a certain RPM range, you can get little boost early and alot of boost late. If that's not the meat of your torque curve that may not be the best choice. For a dyno queen sure, but for practical racing, pick your area for greatest TQ and set up your gearing right to take advantage of that. HP is a myth to a large degree, TQ and gearing matters.

a PD blower complements the meat of most v8's powerbands whereas a centrifugal compensates for a v8's. People make the mistake of maximizing for HP because that's what people compare with, but what you want to be fast is TQ and the area under the torque curve(within your gear/shift range of course). So here's the question which SC setup will generate the highest and widest TQ? A Centrifugal that's running best when the engine is breathing least efficiently or a PD charger that generating consistent boost when the engine breathes best?

Also if you want you can always tune the boost coming out of a SC to give you different boost levels per RPM range if you want with an electronic boost controller. Obviously you'll lose efficiency when you bleed boost in an SC but it can be done. This is likely easier with a PD changer since it provides boost over a constant range where the centrifugal loses efficiency outside of it's designed range.

HemiEd
06-10-2011, 06:47 PM
I currently have a unisteer manual rack in it. The reson for the change to power is because the manual is 4 turns lock to lock. Tooooooooo Sloooooow. The power rack is 2.5 turns lock to lock. That should bring the car into the 21st century.

Drilled the welds out.

Very sanitary CrazyHorse, nice!:thumb:

stevieray
06-10-2011, 07:01 PM
...beautiful!

you too crazy horse....very clean.


just pulled(literally) my motor from my van..have to replace a connecting rod that disintegrated...i'm sooooo lucky it didn't damage the block or crank..hopefully the piston didn't slam up and bend my valves..if that didn't happen, I'll be in pretty good shape.

HemiEd
06-10-2011, 07:05 PM
Not to be negative, but this sort of stuff is why Americans will never get over their addiction to oil and gasoline.

:LOL: I missed this jewel, has to be one of the funniest posts ever on the Planet. LMAO ROFL

stevieray
06-10-2011, 07:32 PM
:LOL: I missed this jewel, has to be one of the funniest posts ever on the Planet. LMAO ROFL

....it's no coinkydink we have the Salt Flats.

HemiEd
06-10-2011, 07:43 PM
....it's no coinkydink we have the Salt Flats. :thumb:

You got chocolate on my peanut butter!

Marcellus
06-10-2011, 09:32 PM
Awesome car. It kind of resembles a mid 60's Vette with some of the body mods.

pr_capone
06-10-2011, 09:37 PM
Pretty badass, just not diggin the hood that might be the only thing imo, if it was all black on the hood and flattened, but i can't tell by the angle of the cars if it requires the air dam/scoop. I would def love to see it in person though.

My thoughts exactly.

Over-Head
06-11-2011, 04:50 AM
Hello, i just got back from SEMA a few days ago and googled our SEMA vehicle to find that we are now all over the internet. Its pretty exciting knowing that our teams (CoupeR Design) work is being viewed by many. I dont have any personal photos of the car but there are tons floating around on the net. What do you guys honestly think of our mustang?

http://www.fast-autos.net/vehicles/CoupeR_Design/1967/Obsidian_SG_One/



Very nice!!!
More of a fan of 1/4 mile, but that Stang is just a BEAST.



My pal and I are working on a 96' twin turbo Cavalier for the Newfoundland TARGA series.
One leg of the race is right here on Bell Island, can't wait to go ripping around my home town with NO speed limits. (fastest spd limit ANYWHERE on Bell Island is 60kph/25mph)

CrazyHorse
06-12-2011, 09:17 AM
Very nice!!!
More of a fan of 1/4 mile, but that Stang is just a BEAST.



My pal and I are working on a 96' twin turbo Cavalier for the Newfoundland TARGA series.
One leg of the race is right here on Bell Island, can't wait to go ripping around my home town with NO speed limits. (fastest spd limit ANYWHERE on Bell Island is 60kph/25mph)

Any pics of your car?

Detoxing
06-13-2011, 10:01 AM
Who's hinges are those? How much? And are the fiberglass friendly? In other words, are they too stiff foe flimsy fiberglass? I need a prop rod to hold my hood open more than half way. My spings are weak so the hood dont crack.

The hood Hinges are by the Ring Brothers. Yes, you can purchase a set for Fiberglass hoods. The fiberglass version just has a different set of hydraulics with less resistance for the lighter hood. They go for $649.95.

When we're building a car with a glass hood we always use these. They're so much more adjustable than standard spring hinges and saves so much time from dicking around trying to align/modify a glass hood.

Detoxing
06-13-2011, 10:04 AM
Is it running yet? How do you move a car around @ SEMA if it doesn't run?

Strictly man power?

Wicked ride dude.

http://i116.photobucket.com/albums/o5/woodencoop/sema2006038.jpg

It's been running. The car isn't even in our possession anymore. It's somewhere in Vegas now with the owner. It's been thoroughly tested, driven, beat on and now out of our hair.

We built another one though. One That I actually like a lot more. I'll post pics as soon as I can.

It's similar to this one but toned down a bit.

Radar Chief
06-13-2011, 10:34 AM
Ok so honest question then, since I'm not personally that well versed in old school american muscle. My perception is most were great in a straight line because of motor/tranny/rearend, but generally the chassis's were way too soft to handle well. Is there any of the old school muscle that has a pretty stiff stock chassis? Or do most of them require quite a bit of work to get them responsive?

Corvette Stingrays. :shrug:
At least they had a fully independent suspension all the way around with an anti-sway bar across the front. High tech for the day.

Radar Chief
06-13-2011, 10:36 AM
First, how the hell did I miss this topic first time around?
Second, incredible work Detoxing. I feel like such a hack now.

Radar Chief
06-13-2011, 10:40 AM
Well to me <7K redline is still pretty low, it's no diesel redline of course but I prefer mine 8K+ even the v8's.

My avatar 327, forged bottom end, roller top end, carbureted so itís nothing that special, other than a few tricks Iíve picked up along the way, and if it breaks traction with the throttle down itíll zing past 7,000 RPMís faster than you can back out of it. Seriously, it has a power band like a two stroke, which I dig.

Detoxing
06-13-2011, 10:52 AM
Well to me <7K redline is still pretty low, it's no diesel redline of course but I prefer mine 8K+ even the v8's. So my issue with a centrifugal blower on a v8 depends partially on the design of the v8 of course. If your v8 breathes well naturally then sure a centrifugal SC is a fine choice. The problem is many V8 don't breathe that well up top, they are designed to provide more low end grunt and they run out of air at the high RPMS. While a centrifugal charger can compensate somewhat for that, it does so in a relatively inefficient way. If you have restrictions at high RPMS, while boost will help raise the power, it will do so a less efficiency than it would in an engine that naturally breathes better at high RPMS.

The real question is, where is the meat of your power band and what RPM range do you really expect to live at? Since the centrifugal is really only efficient when running in a certain RPM range, you can get little boost early and alot of boost late. If that's not the meat of your torque curve that may not be the best choice. For a dyno queen sure, but for practical racing, pick your area for greatest TQ and set up your gearing right to take advantage of that. HP is a myth to a large degree, TQ and gearing matters.

a PD blower complements the meat of most v8's powerbands whereas a centrifugal compensates for a v8's. People make the mistake of maximizing for HP because that's what people compare with, but what you want to be fast is TQ and the area under the torque curve(within your gear/shift range of course). So here's the question which SC setup will generate the highest and widest TQ? A Centrifugal that's running best when the engine is breathing least efficiently or a PD charger that generating consistent boost when the engine breathes best?

Also if you want you can always tune the boost coming out of a SC to give you different boost levels per RPM range if you want with an electronic boost controller. Obviously you'll lose efficiency when you bleed boost in an SC but it can be done. This is likely easier with a PD changer since it provides boost over a constant range where the centrifugal loses efficiency outside of it's designed range.


If you guys really wanna debate about this I'll see if I can post some dyno sheets for you. I'll have to find them.

One dyno sheet of a 351W based 392 with a single T4/T5 Turbo (turbonetics GTK 1000) and one with that same motor and the dual Blowers.

Then you can debate away.

Both Dyno sheets are incredibly impressive and you can take a look at what dual centrifugals really do on a V8 vs a single large turbo.

tooge
06-13-2011, 10:58 AM
That car is very cool. Just not my thing. If I wanted a 67 stang, I'd want it restored to mint condition, the way it rolled off the line. Very nice job though.

Radar Chief
06-13-2011, 12:04 PM
That car is very cool. Just not my thing. If I wanted a 67 stang, I'd want it restored to mint condition, the way it rolled off the line. Very nice job though.

Ah, classic ďResto vs. Resto ModĒ. Iíve never been one to leave things alone so Iím more of a Resto Mod guy.

Detoxing
06-13-2011, 12:14 PM
Ah, classic ďResto vs. Resto ModĒ. Iíve never been one to leave things alone so Iím more of a Resto Mod guy.

Resto Mod all the way.

Not every car has to be as extreme as the one in the OP, but there are certain things on classic cars that are in dire need of updating. Cough *Suspension & Brakes* Cough.

Radar Chief
06-13-2011, 12:54 PM
Resto Mod all the way.

Not every car has to be as extreme as the one in the OP, but there are certain things on classic cars that are in dire need of updating. Cough *Suspension & Brakes* Cough.

Throw steering in there also. Those are exactly the issues I need to update on Mrs. Radars í57 to make it more drivable for her.

MIAdragon
06-13-2011, 01:18 PM
If you guys really wanna debate about this I'll see if I can post some dyno sheets for you. I'll have to find them.

One dyno sheet of a 351W based 392 with a single T4/T5 Turbo (turbonetics GTK 1000) and one with that same motor and the dual Blowers.

Then you can debate away.

Both Dyno sheets are incredibly impressive and you can take a look at what dual centrifugals really do on a V8 vs a single large turbo.

There is no debate, I dont agree with much he said, just dont feel like getting into it. FWIW there is zero comparison with turbo's to either centrifugal-type or PD/Roots blowers.

Detoxing
06-13-2011, 01:33 PM
There is no debate, I dont agree with much he said, just dont feel like getting into it. FWIW there is zero comparison with turbo's to either centrifugal-type or PD/Roots blowers.

But it's interesting to see them side by side on the Dyno.

MIAdragon
06-13-2011, 05:33 PM
But it's interesting to see them side by side on the Dyno.

I agree, but there is no doubt turbo is king.

rtmike
06-13-2011, 07:15 PM
My avatar 327, forged bottom end, roller top end, carbureted so itís nothing that special, other than a few tricks Iíve picked up along the way, and if it breaks traction with the throttle down itíll zing past 7,000 RPMís faster than you can back out of it. Seriously, it has a power band like a two stroke, which I dig.


I always tell folks my stroker Hemi winds out like a small block. I like the two stroke analogy.

For 3 decades I was an off the line showroom type of gearhead. Now I like strictly personalizing my hot rods. Anybody tells me the air in my tires is incorrect I can tell them to **** off!

Radar Chief
06-13-2011, 10:25 PM
I always tell folks my stroker Hemi winds out like a small block. I like the two stroke analogy.

;) HemiEd walked me through porting and port matching.

For 3 decades I was an off the line showroom type of gearhead. Now I like strictly personalizing my hot rods. Anybody tells me the air in my tires is incorrect I can tell them to **** off!

I'm already getting critics of Mrs. Radar's '57 and we just bought it.

ChiefsOne
06-14-2011, 07:13 AM
Detox, do you work with any of the guys at Symbolic?

Detoxing
06-14-2011, 09:26 AM
Detox, do you work with any of the guys at Symbolic?

Symbolic Motor Cars? We've worked with them.

Why do you ask?

ChiefsOne
06-14-2011, 11:37 AM
Symbolic Motor Cars? We've worked with them.

Why do you ask?

Have a friend that works there.

Detoxing
06-14-2011, 12:31 PM
Have a friend that works there.

What a small world. The owner of our shop went over there to be an aid to them since they were building a 66 Mustang for the first time.

We sold them the parts that we use on all of our cars to get the job done and we tried to help them with their project.

ferrarispider95
06-14-2011, 12:36 PM
I can speak for updating steering and brakes. I have a 61 vette, all original and I am not sure I would every drive it out of town. Steering is a beast, especially when you are barely moving, Drum brakes and small tires lock up if you get into them too hard. No seatbelts, no ac, no power anything, wonderbar radio does not work.

But, damn that 283 sounds nice and it just has a cool factor about it. Love driving it around town.

Detoxing
06-14-2011, 12:39 PM
I can speak for updating steering and brakes. I have a 61 vette, all original and I am not sure I would every drive it out of town. Steering is a beast, especially when you are barely moving, Drum brakes and small tires lock up if you get into them too hard. No seatbelts, no ac, no power anything, wonderbar radio does not work.

But, damn that 283 sounds nice and it just has a cool factor about it. Love driving it around town.

Yeah, the poor suspension and brakes are something that people really take for granted. The stuff is very unsafe.

Radar Chief
06-14-2011, 01:09 PM
Yeah, the poor suspension and brakes are something that people really take for granted. The stuff is very unsafe.

I donít think I could get the brakes on Mrs. Radarís í57 to lock up if I used a hydraulic press on the brake pedal. Iím hoping going through the brakes, giving it all new components, and a brake booster will help but a disk conversion may be in the future.

Radar Chief
06-14-2011, 01:11 PM
I can speak for updating steering and brakes. I have a 61 vette, all original and I am not sure I would every drive it out of town. Steering is a beast, especially when you are barely moving, Drum brakes and small tires lock up if you get into them too hard. No seatbelts, no ac, no power anything, wonderbar radio does not work.

But, damn that 283 sounds nice and it just has a cool factor about it. Love driving it around town.

:thumb: I love the sound of a well tuned SBC. They just sound right for some reason.

ChiefsOne
06-14-2011, 01:13 PM
What a small world. The owner of our shop went over there to be an aid to them since they were building a 66 Mustang for the first time.

We sold them the parts that we use on all of our cars to get the job done and we tried to help them with their project.

Yes it is. The guy I know is a salesman. I worked with his mom for 12 years. Young guy that is doing everything right in the autoworld. Moved to Vegas with International Motorcars to started Exotic Cars of Las Vegas. The Lambo people liked him so much they moved him to Symbolic. He just got back from Italy. He has it pretty rough, has a track pass and gets to drive them everyday!