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Dark Horse
11-11-2006, 06:58 PM
I'm torn between Iron Maiden and Dio. What say you?

Fishpicker
11-11-2006, 07:01 PM
black sabbath

Dark Horse
11-11-2006, 07:04 PM
black sabbath

With Dio Or Ozzy?

'Hamas' Jenkins
11-11-2006, 07:17 PM
Winger.

Fishpicker
11-11-2006, 07:18 PM
With Dio Or Ozzy?

i like both eras equally. if i had to choose, Dio would be my pick. he has a great metal voice, and he always made me laugh. A balding, middle aged, dwarf making the sign of the beast is just too funny.

Ian Gillan didn't sound bad with sabbath either. The qaulity of the music dropped off only after Gillan left.

Dio and Sabbath are going to tour again under the name "heaven and hell"

Dark Horse
11-11-2006, 07:19 PM
i like both eras equally. if i had to choose, Dio would be my pick. he has a great metal voice, and he always made me laugh. A balding, middle aged, dwarf making the sign of the beast is just too funny.

Ian Gillan didn't sound bad with sabbath either. The qaulity of the music dropped off only after Gillan left.

Dio and Sabbath are going to tour again under the name "heaven and hell"

Can't wait!

Dark Horse
11-11-2006, 07:20 PM
Winger.


If I thought you were not joking I would neg rep you.

'Hamas' Jenkins
11-11-2006, 07:27 PM
If I thought you were not joking I would neg rep you.

I've definitely gotta go with Winger. Nelson is a close #2 though.






;)

Dark Horse
11-11-2006, 07:31 PM
[QUOTE='Hamas' Jenkins]I've definitely gotta go with Winger. Nelson is a close #2 though.

If this is true. You sir were with out a doubt born with out a soul.

Bowser
11-11-2006, 07:35 PM
No Judas Priest?

Dark Horse
11-11-2006, 07:38 PM
No Judas Priest?

I don't understand. Are you voting no for Judas Priest or adding them to the list?

Reaper16
11-11-2006, 07:40 PM
Iron Maiden, if only because no one has recorded a better metal song than "Hallowed Be Thy Name"

Bowser
11-11-2006, 07:45 PM
I don't understand. Are you voting no for Judas Priest or adding them to the list?

Added to the list.

Iron Maiden, if only because no one has recorded a better metal song than "Hallowed be Thy Name"

That's a pretty big statement.

Dark Horse
11-11-2006, 07:55 PM
Iron Maiden, if only because no one has recorded a better metal song than "Hallowed Be Thy Name"

I'm waiting in my cold cell when the bell begins to chime
reflecting on my past life and it doesn't have much time
cause at 5 o'clock they take me to the gallows pole
the sands of time for me are running low

Still gives me chills

Dark Horse
11-11-2006, 08:05 PM
[QUOTE=Bowser]Added to the list.QUOTE]
Priest rocks but are they in the same league with Dio and Maiden?

Reaper16
11-11-2006, 08:30 PM
As much as I love Dio, I don't think he's in "the same league" as Maiden and Sabbath. It's all about the songs, and Sabbath and Maiden have so many great ones.
Dio and Priest, both are hit and miss. But when they're on, they're amazing. See the albums "Holy Diver" and "Painkiller."

Dark Horse
11-11-2006, 08:41 PM
As much as I love Dio, I don't think he's in "the same league" as Maiden and Sabbath. It's all about the songs, and Sabbath and Maiden have so many great ones.
Dio and Priest, both are hit and miss. But when they're on, they're amazing. See the albums "Holy Diver" and "Painkiller."

I guess it's just a matter of taste but I think Dio's songs are what makes him great. He just doesn't have any bad ones. However I agree that Maiden and Sabbath are great also.

Nightwish
11-11-2006, 09:19 PM
I'm torn between Iron Maiden and Dio. What say you?Between those two, it's no contest. Definitely Maiden. Dio's cool, but not in the same league as Maiden. But ultimately, I would say it comes down neck and neck between Maiden and Priest. Sabbath was great, but I don't consider their music under Ozzy to be metal, they were hard rock or doom rock, but not metal. Their metal era really began with Dio, I think, but their music with Dio, while there were some really outstanding songs, was hit and miss, and even moreso under Gillian.

Dark Horse
11-11-2006, 09:23 PM
Between those two, it's no contest. Definitely Maiden. Dio's cool, but not in the same league as Maiden. But ultimately, I would say it comes down neck and neck between Maiden and Priest.

I love Priest but if those were my choices I would definitly take Maiden. It seems every time I listen to them they get better.

Halfcan
11-11-2006, 09:26 PM
Up the Irons!!!!!

Deberg_1990
11-11-2006, 09:28 PM
Come on...this shouldnt even be close:

Led Zepplin

Dark Horse
11-11-2006, 09:32 PM
Come on...this shouldnt even be close:

Led Zepplin

Maybe if we were talking hard rock bands, but Zep is not heavy metal.

Reaper16
11-11-2006, 09:32 PM
Come on...this shouldnt even be close:

Led Zepplin
Zepplin are lovely, but are not heavy metal by modern understanding of the genre.

htismaqe
11-11-2006, 10:11 PM
Even though I don't consider them metal, I would imagine they fit the criteria of this thread...

Motörhead

Reaper16
11-11-2006, 10:12 PM
Even though I don't consider them metal, I would imagine they fit the criteria of this thread...

Motörhead
They're so awesome...

Deberg_1990
11-11-2006, 10:19 PM
Zepplin are lovely, but are not heavy metal by modern understanding of the genre.

I guess i need to be reeducated...but i always thought of Zep as classic metal??

Fishpicker
11-11-2006, 10:28 PM
I guess i need to be reeducated...but i always thought of Zep as classic metal??

no, you're right. Zeppelin is definately metal. here is "heavy metal defined"
heavy metal (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heavy_metal_music)

Dark Horse
11-11-2006, 10:29 PM
Even though I don't consider them metal, I would imagine they fit the criteria of this thread...

Motörhead

Motorhead is one of the original metal bands

Dark Horse
11-11-2006, 10:33 PM
no, you're right. Zeppelin is definately metal. here is "heavy metal defined"
heavy metal (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heavy_metal_music)

Zeppelin was not metal all the time that is why I didn't consider them metal. According to the most liberal definiton almost all guitar rock could be considered metal.

Reaper16
11-12-2006, 12:26 AM
That wiki is pretty flawed at parts. Zeppelin were critical in the evolution of what was to become metal music. Obviously not as much as Black Sabbath, who practically invented the form.

Brock
11-12-2006, 09:45 AM
Zeppelin was not metal all the time that is why I didn't consider them metal. According to the most liberal definiton almost all guitar rock could be considered metal.

Black Sabbath wasn't metal all the time either. And they're definitely metal.

htismaqe
11-13-2006, 09:57 AM
Motorhead is one of the original metal bands

Rock and Roll + amphetamines <> metal

patteeu
11-13-2006, 10:37 AM
Judas Priest was probably my favorite, but I can't deny that Iron Maiden was more consistent over a longer period of time (IMO). Another band I really liked a lot that hasn't been mentioned (and probably shouldn't be in terms of "greatest") was Armored Saint.

Does Metallica count as "classic metal?" If so, I'm surprised they haven't been mentioned, although I wouldn't have picked them, myself. Is it the Napster blowback?

ChiefFripp
11-13-2006, 11:43 AM
Black Sabbath may have invented the wheel but Iron Maiden invented the Ferrari.

Now I'll going to listen to 'Lord of Light' off "A Matter of Life and Death' !

htismaqe
11-13-2006, 12:17 PM
Judas Priest was probably my favorite, but I can't deny that Iron Maiden was more consistent over a longer period of time (IMO). Another band I really liked a lot that hasn't been mentioned (and probably shouldn't be in terms of "greatest") was Armored Saint.

Does Metallica count as "classic metal?" If so, I'm surprised they haven't been mentioned, although I wouldn't have picked them, myself. Is it the Napster blowback?

I don't know, Priest was pretty consistent over a long period of time.

ChiefFripp
11-13-2006, 12:27 PM
Not a Priest fan besides for a few songs like Diamonds and Rust, beyond The Realms of Death and Touch of Evil. Breaking The Law(The Sodomy law) by Pansy Divison was pretty good (and possibly a knowing wink to Halford), though.

Man ,it just takes a thread like this to get me in a Maiden mood.
Already listened to The Legacy, Lord of Light, Hallowed Be Thy Name, the Number of the Beast, Montsegur, and Paschendale. Need to break out the Di'anno albums next!

memyselfI
11-13-2006, 12:29 PM
Zeppelin was not metal all the time that is why I didn't consider them metal. According to the most liberal definiton almost all guitar rock could be considered metal.

Exactly. Zeppelin, themselves, would bristle at the idea of being considered heavy metal. They were blues inspired at heart. I'd say less than 10% of their music would fall into the classic heavy metal genre.

ChiefFripp
11-13-2006, 12:31 PM
Exactly. Zeppelin, themselves, would bristle at the idea of being considered heavy metal. They were blues inspired at heart. I'd say less than 10% of their music would fall into the classic heavy metal genre.
Yeah, I have to agree. Zep had some heavy tunes like No Quarter and Immigrant Song, but they had a scope that was much broader than just Metal.

memyselfI
11-13-2006, 12:36 PM
no, you're right. Zeppelin is definately metal. here is "heavy metal defined"
heavy metal (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heavy_metal_music)

That wiki is majorly flawed. It lists YES and EMP in the article because they had a classical music influence as did others they list. Yet, neither of those two bands are remotely heavy metal. MOF, I think they would be the antithesis of such.

BIG_DADDY
11-13-2006, 12:39 PM
Zep is rock not metal.

1. Black Sabbath - The birth of metal on a large scale gotta be #1
2. Metallica - Even though I hate to say it.
3. Pantera
4. Ozzy
5. Motorhead

From there it blurs IMO. I can't believe nobody said Pantera.

ChiefFripp
11-13-2006, 12:42 PM
Zep is rock not metal.


From there it blurs IMO. I can't believe nobody said Pantera.

I can...

BIG_DADDY
11-13-2006, 12:48 PM
OK :rolleyes:

ChiefFripp
11-13-2006, 12:51 PM
OK :rolleyes:
They had some great stuff but not really enough of it. And Phil being a total ass doesn't help either. Dimebag sure could play but I'd always wanted him to be in a better band.

BIG_DADDY
11-13-2006, 01:01 PM
They had some great stuff but not really enough of it. And Phil being a total ass doesn't help either. Dimebag sure could play but I'd always wanted him to be in a better band.

You mentioned Maiden. I like Maiden as well but they need to STFU about their anti-capitalism BS. Nothing worse than a capitalist pretending to be something else. Dickinson needs to leave his politics and home and just ****ing sing. I feel the same about System of the Down. I won't even get on of their CD's unless it's pirated and won't pay to see them.

BTW I love Vulgar Display of Power. Losing dimebag sucked. :cuss:

BIG_DADDY
11-13-2006, 01:14 PM
I always liked Judas Priest as well. I have a good friend and that was his favorite band through school and all. The day he found out Halford was gay he was hella pissed. Now every time he puts them on I say "isn't that the band with the gay vocalist" just to piss him off. Of course I always get the STFU response. LMAO

htismaqe
11-13-2006, 01:51 PM
Zep is rock not metal.

1. Black Sabbath - The birth of metal on a large scale gotta be #1
2. Metallica - Even though I hate to say it.
3. Pantera
4. Ozzy
5. Motorhead

From there it blurs IMO. I can't believe nobody said Pantera.

Motorhead isn't metal either.

That's the benefit of hindsight.

Bands like Zep and Motorhead are NOW considered "metal" because of the profound influence they had on metal acts that came after them.

chagrin
11-13-2006, 02:12 PM
[QUOTE=Bowser]Added to the list.QUOTE]
Priest rocks but are they in the same league with Dio and Maiden?

I only read page 1 of this thread, you are not serious are you?

Brock
11-13-2006, 02:16 PM
I only read page 1 of this thread, you are not serious are you?

No kidding. Dio was strictly second fiddle compared to Priest or Maiden.

chagrin
11-13-2006, 02:17 PM
Okay, now I have read through the whole thing, that Wikipedia definition sucks, and looks to have been written by the Rolling Stone guys.

YES - please

and Led Zepplin was so blues based, not at all metal.

chagrin
11-13-2006, 02:18 PM
And F*cking Iron Maiden still kicks ass

chagrin
11-13-2006, 02:20 PM
and I have Victim Of Changes Live playing right now, killer - and you can't forget songs like Sinner, that opening riff is metal, and also Hell Bent For Leather, Delivering The Goods, Ripper, Dissident Aggressor, Beyond The Realms Of Death, Diamonds and Rust shit, DIO couldn't suck Rob's d*ck




- BIG DADDY, I only disagree with your assessment of Pantera because this is a Classic metal band thread. their brand of Metal was way off the charts new

Chiefnj
11-13-2006, 02:47 PM
I don't know what a "classic" heavy metal band is. When talking about the best heavy metal band, I'd say there are 4 choices:

1. Sabbath - who started it all; and then the big three from Britain

2. Priest - - Earliest of the Brits.
3. Maiden - Most popular
4. Def Leppard - First to sell out and go pop.

I'd have to go with Iron Maiden who had solid albums from the self titled Iron Maiden up to and including Powerslave. 5 very good albums in 5 years, plus an excellent live album in 1985. Life was good back then. At that point Metallica and Anthrax took over and a gazillion sub-species of heavy metal arose - I have no idea why.

Brock
11-13-2006, 02:47 PM
DIO couldn't suck Rob's d*ck



Oh, I doubt he'd object.

Reaper16
11-13-2006, 02:51 PM
Pantera definitely shouldn't be considered for the reason Chagrin mentioned. They def are not "classic metal." They were a thrash-derived band that used a whole lot of groove. They had a pretty distinct sound (ripped off completely from the band Exhorder, btw) that is nothing like the bands mentioned in this thread such as MAiden or Preist.

Metallica doesn't count, either, because they played Thrash metal. (Well, until the Black album.)

Reaper16
11-13-2006, 02:55 PM
Life was good back then. At that point Metallica and Anthrax took over and a gazillion sub-species of heavy metal arose - I have no idea why.
Because the sonic parameters of the metal form had so much left to be explored back then. The distinct death and black metal movements popped up, Dream Theater and Voivod sparked an interest in applying Progressive tendencies to metal, European bands were blending metal with their traditional folk music. Bands were taking what Sabbath started, and amped up the thick tones and slow pace to produce Doom metal, named after the Sabbath song "Hand of Doom."

All of the vast difference that still is able to be connected to a larger musical thread is one of my favorite things about metal music.

chagrin
11-13-2006, 03:01 PM
Because the sonic parameters of the metal form had so much left to be explored back then. The distinct death and black metal movements popped up, Dream Theater and Voivod sparked an interest in applying Progressive tendencies to metal, European bands were blending metal with their traditional folk music. Bands were taking what Sabbath started, and amped up the thick tones and slow pace to produce Doom metal, named after the Sabbath song "Hand of Doom."

All of the vast difference that still is able to be connected to a larger musical thread is one of my favorite things about metal music.


Reaper, I am impressed as always - Dude you have got to write a book man, seriously.

Reaper16
11-13-2006, 04:43 PM
Reaper, I am impressed as always - Dude you have got to write a book man, seriously.
Someone needs to. The few books written about metal tend to be incorrect. "Choosing Death" is a book about the history of some of the subgenres, but it is highly flawed.

chagrin
11-13-2006, 05:14 PM
Someone needs to. The few books written about metal tend to be incorrect. "Choosing Death" is a book about the history of some of the subgenres, but it is highly flawed.

Off topic, and I might have kmentioned this before; Have you read "Lords Of Chaos"? Pretty cool book about the Black Metal scene over in Germany/Norway, etc. Of course by now it is 10 years old but has alot of good and relevant information I think.

Reaper16
11-13-2006, 05:27 PM
Off topic, and I might have kmentioned this before; Have you read "Lords Of Chaos"? Pretty cool book about the Black Metal scene over in Germany/Norway, etc. Of course by now it is 10 years old but has alot of good and relevant information I think.
Actually, I was thinking about mentioning that as an example of a good book about metal. It's an enjoyable read, and chronicles the early BM scene well. If ever anyone wanted to find out exactly why Varg stabbed Euronymous 20+ times in an apartment complex stairway, that is the book to read.

Dark Horse
11-13-2006, 06:37 PM
I only read page 1 of this thread, you are not serious are you?

Yes I don't think Priest is in the same league with Dio and maiden.

Dark Horse
11-13-2006, 06:46 PM
It really doesn't matter what my opinion or yours is. Music is far too subjective to say who's right or wrong. My favorite all time top 5 are 1.Dio 2.Iron Maiden 3. Black Sabbath 4. Judas Priest 5. Ozzy ,Yours no doubt will differ.

htismaqe
11-13-2006, 06:50 PM
Hard to put the BAND Dio in the same sentence as Maiden or Priest.

But the evil elf himself, not his band, was a frontman for both Tony Iommi AND Ritchie Blackmore...which makes him metal ROYALTY.

htismaqe
11-13-2006, 06:50 PM
Someone needs to. The few books written about metal tend to be incorrect. "Choosing Death" is a book about the history of some of the subgenres, but it is highly flawed.

In your opinion.

jlscorpio
11-13-2006, 06:54 PM
FINALLY a metal thread...Maiden it is. Dap for the selection of "Hallwed...", Reap. I also love "Phantom of the Opera" and "Rhyme of the Ancient Mariner".

Dark Horse
11-13-2006, 06:55 PM
Hard to put the BAND Dio in the same sentence as Maiden or Priest.

But the evil elf himself, not his band, was a frontman for both Tony Iommi AND Ritchie Blackmore...which makes him metal ROYALTY.

That evil elf kicked some serious ass solo and although unheralded, Vivian Campbell is one of the best guitarists ever to scorch the strings.

htismaqe
11-13-2006, 07:02 PM
That evil elf kicked some serious ass solo and although unheralded, Vivian Campbell is one of the best guitarists ever to scorch the strings.

Unfortunately, Campbell tarnished his image by hooking up with Whitesnake...

Reaper16
11-13-2006, 07:05 PM
In your opinion.
No, not so much. They completely misapply the term Power Metal, and they invent stupid phrases that have never been used anywhere outside of the book. For example, they called Blind Guardian an example of something called "Legacy metal." I have never, ever, seen or heard of that term outside of that book. "Choosing Death" does a good job with the Grindcore movement, and the Floridian Death metal scene, but outside of that is ill-informed.

Reaper16
11-13-2006, 07:05 PM
Unfortunately, Campbell tarnished his image by hooking up with Whitesnake...
only to sully even that by joining Def Leppard.

Bill Parcells
11-13-2006, 07:08 PM
FINALLY a metal thread...Maiden it is. Dap for the selection of "Hallwed...", Reap. I also love "Phantom of the Opera" and "Rhyme of the Ancient Mariner".
Whats a metal thread with a tribute!!!Run to the hills!!!
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chagrin
11-13-2006, 07:10 PM
only to sully even that by joining Def Leppard.

Of course, to allow himself to be replaced by former Giuffria Guitarist Craig Goldy, has to be his worst act, ever - even ablove (or below, depending...) joinging Def or Whitesnake. At least that Whitesnake tour has some very good guitar for him to play, written of course by John Sykes - but it wasn't without its good points.

chagrin
11-13-2006, 07:13 PM
It really doesn't matter what my opinion or yours is. Music is far too subjective to say who's right or wrong. My favorite all time top 5 are 1.Dio 2.Iron Maiden 3. Black Sabbath 4. Judas Priest 5. Ozzy ,Yours no doubt will differ.

I didn't say you were wrong, but your statement is indeed laughable to say the least.

Dark Horse
11-13-2006, 07:16 PM
only to sully even that by joining Def Leppard.

We all make bad choices.

Dark Horse
11-13-2006, 07:22 PM
I didn't say you were wrong, but your statement is indeed laughable to say the least.

Just my opinion. I don't consider it laughable that you like Priest better just that we obviously have different taste.

htismaqe
11-13-2006, 07:36 PM
No, not so much. They completely misapply the term Power Metal, and they invent stupid phrases that have never been used anywhere outside of the book. For example, they called Blind Guardian an example of something called "Legacy metal." I have never, ever, seen or heard of that term outside of that book. "Choosing Death" does a good job with the Grindcore movement, and the Floridian Death metal scene, but outside of that is ill-informed.

I'm not really interested in having this conversation AGAIN.

The whole process of fitting music into nice little "genre" boxes is laughable...

Dark Horse
11-13-2006, 07:41 PM
I'm not really interested in having this conversation AGAIN.

The whole process of fitting music into nice little "genre" boxes is laughable...

I'm with you there. The only ones that fit neatly into a little sub-genre usually are only around for about one album.

ChiefFripp
11-13-2006, 08:50 PM
I'm not really interested in having this conversation AGAIN.

The whole process of fitting music into nice little "genre" boxes is laughable...
Quoted for truth, but I think for the historians or just a beginner navigating himself around Metal as a whole, genres help.

htismaqe
11-13-2006, 09:00 PM
Quoted for truth, but I think for the historians or just a beginner navigating himself around Metal as a whole, genres help.

Well, I have a degree in history and have spent alot of time studying the history of popular music, rock music in particular.

The whole idea of "genres" is inherent to a certain few types of music fans (jazz and metal are two notable examples). Not coincidentally, said fans are generally recognized in musical circles for their arrogance.

Reaper16
11-14-2006, 12:08 AM
Well, I have a degree in history and have spent alot of time studying the history of popular music, rock music in particular.

The whole idea of "genres" is inherent to a certain few types of music fans (jazz and metal are two notable examples). Not coincidentally, said fans are generally recognized in musical circles for their arrogance.
There is a tasteful limit to the subgenre-ization, and there is an idiotic crossing the line. That book mentioned crosses the line. The way I see it, if 200+ bands all play the music that people call black metal, then "black metal" can be used as a quick descriptor for their sound. The whole genre deal only gets brought up when the terms are misapplied.

Take these bands: Maiden, Priest, Dio, Saxon, Queensryche, Cannibal Corpse, Sabbath.

All of these might be able to be talked about as "classic" metal (not a subgenre ;) ) except for one. Likewise, it would be foolish to call all non-Cannibal Corpse bands in this list as death metal bands.

BTW- Mr. History degree: Back a few months ago when the original discussion took place, you said music theory is overrated. I think all manner of Mr. Music degrees would disagree with that. :p

htismaqe
11-14-2006, 08:44 AM
There is a tasteful limit to the subgenre-ization, and there is an idiotic crossing the line. That book mentioned crosses the line. The way I see it, if 200+ bands all play the music that people call black metal, then "black metal" can be used as a quick descriptor for their sound. The whole genre deal only gets brought up when the terms are misapplied.

Take these bands: Maiden, Priest, Dio, Saxon, Queensryche, Cannibal Corpse, Sabbath.

All of these might be able to be talked about as "classic" metal (not a subgenre ;) ) except for one. Likewise, it would be foolish to call all non-Cannibal Corpse bands in this list as death metal bands.

BTW- Mr. History degree: Back a few months ago when the original discussion took place, you said music theory is overrated. I think all manner of Mr. Music degrees would disagree with that. :p

Music theory, as it relates to rock and roll is definitely overrated. It certainly can be used to construct meaningful music. More often it's used as a tool by elitists to denigrate someone else's music.

Chiefnj
11-14-2006, 09:00 AM
Music theory, as it relates to rock and roll is definitely overrated. It certainly can be used to construct meaningful music. More often it's used as a tool by elitists to denigrate someone else's music.

I see it as the opposite. I see it as a crutch for bands that aren't that good to come up with a new category to fit in - "Well, we don't have a lead singer who can articulate a word and we don't have a song writer who can use any other words than death, kill and maim. I got it - lets turn up the reverb and call ourselves the best death speed metal."

ChiefFripp
11-14-2006, 10:34 AM
Dio sings about dragons and evil queens while Maiden sings about Icarus and WWII battles...Maiden is CLEARLY better. ;)

chasedude
11-14-2006, 11:08 AM
I didn't see anyone mention Slayer. That would have to be my pick. Although they fall under the "Metal" term with Speed, Thrash, and Heavy.

slappyhappy
11-14-2006, 11:12 AM
I didn't see anyone mention Slayer. That would have to be my pick. Although they fall under the "Metal" term with Speed, Thrash, and Heavy.

Yeah! Slayer's awesome

Bowser
11-14-2006, 11:42 AM
Jethro Tull. Duh.

htismaqe
11-14-2006, 12:02 PM
I see it as the opposite. I see it as a crutch for bands that aren't that good to come up with a new category to fit in - "Well, we don't have a lead singer who can articulate a word and we don't have a song writer who can use any other words than death, kill and maim. I got it - lets turn up the reverb and call ourselves the best death speed metal."

Extensive knowledge of music theory, aka "technique", can DEFINITELY be used to mask a lack of musical sensibility, aka "soul".

See also: Yngwie Malmsteen

Demonpenz
11-14-2006, 01:26 PM
without reading the entire thread. I think led zepplin

Reaper16
11-14-2006, 01:53 PM
I see it as the opposite. I see it as a crutch for bands that aren't that good to come up with a new category to fit in - "Well, we don't have a lead singer who can articulate a word and we don't have a song writer who can use any other words than death, kill and maim. I got it - lets turn up the reverb and call ourselves the best death speed metal."
Are there shitty death metal bands? Of course, just like there are shitty heavy metal bands and shitty rock bands and so on.

But there are some amazing death metal bands that bring so much artistic merit to the table. One of the biggest misconceptions is that the "Screaming" vocals, which are more accurately called growling, are used as an excuse not to have good singing. The vocals are used to create a certain mood and feel; they're not even the melody part of the song like most rock and metal music. Death metal vocals are very much part of the rhythm section; any melody is in the guitars alone.

Dark Horse
11-14-2006, 05:42 PM
Are there shitty death metal bands? Of course, just like there are shitty heavy metal bands and shitty rock bands and so on.

But there are some amazing death metal bands that bring so much artistic merit to the table. One of the biggest misconceptions is that the "Screaming" vocals, which are more accurately called growling, are used as an excuse not to have good singing. The vocals are used to create a certain mood and feel; they're not even the melody part of the song like most rock and metal music. Death metal vocals are very much part of the rhythm section; any melody is in the guitars alone.

I'm not going to knock the talents of "Death Metal bands" But I've often wondered what the purpose of the growling was. I just don't like music with out at least moderatly good vocals (and I understand that is purely a matter of personal taste to say that growling is not good vocals), perhaps he was just trying to convey that same preference only in a more blunt way.

CrazyHorse
11-14-2006, 06:58 PM
Best metal band of all time is AC/DC

Reaper16
11-14-2006, 07:17 PM
I'm not going to knock the talents of "Death Metal bands" But I've often wondered what the purpose of the growling was. I just don't like music with out at least moderatly good vocals (and I understand that is purely a matter of personal taste to say that growling is not good vocals), perhaps he was just trying to convey that same preference only in a more blunt way.
No, you're right. It was his personal feelings about death metal. I gave mine. No harm done.

Dark Horse
11-14-2006, 09:18 PM
Are there shitty death metal bands? Of course, just like there are shitty heavy metal bands and shitty rock bands and so on.


Perhaps it would be fun to start a thread on the worst bands of all time. Who had released more than one album of course.

headsnap
11-14-2006, 09:57 PM
ditto what htismaquejereois said!!!!!!!!

Swanman
11-14-2006, 11:12 PM
Are there shitty death metal bands? Of course, just like there are shitty heavy metal bands and shitty rock bands and so on.

But there are some amazing death metal bands that bring so much artistic merit to the table. One of the biggest misconceptions is that the "Screaming" vocals, which are more accurately called growling, are used as an excuse not to have good singing. The vocals are used to create a certain mood and feel; they're not even the melody part of the song like most rock and metal music. Death metal vocals are very much part of the rhythm section; any melody is in the guitars alone.

That's something that a lot of folks don't really understand. One of my favorite bands is Fear Factory, which utilizes the "clean/dirty" vocal approach where there a lot of screaming/growling but also some great "singing" for lack of a better term. Their singer has a decent voice but the texture of the songs requires more than just a good singing voice.

Speaking of bands like that, have you heard the band Into Eternity? I just checked out a couple tracks by them, and I'm really impressed with the variety of different kinds of vocals. In their song "Severe Emotional Distress", they utilize screeching (like Cradle of Filth), singing, and growling. I've rarely heard all three methods worked into one song that well (unless you count bands like Mr. Bungle that will fit death metal, circus music, rap and a horn section into one 4-minute song).

Nightwish
11-14-2006, 11:33 PM
We all make bad choices.
Joining them for one album would be a bad choice. Staying with them for five progressively shittier studio albums is brain death. The only really good album (and it's not just good, it's great, one of their best) they've put out since Vivian joined them was Retroactive, which was a collection of unreleased older songs, mostly (if not all) from the Steve Clark era. Vivian was awesome with Dio, pretty good with Whitesnake (though John Sykes was really the heart and soul of that band, in my opinion), but downright sellout crappy since joining Def Leppard, which is painful to say on more than one level, because both Vivian Campbell and Def Leppard were awesome ... until they joined forces!

MOhillbilly
11-15-2006, 09:44 AM
Well, I have a degree in history and have spent alot of time studying the history of popular music, rock music in particular.

The whole idea of "genres" is inherent to a certain few types of music fans (jazz and metal are two notable examples). Not coincidentally, said fans are generally recognized in musical circles for their arrogance.

Poison Idea said it best.

:)

MOhillbilly
11-15-2006, 09:45 AM
The Accussed is my vote.

htismaqe
11-15-2006, 11:52 AM
I'm not going to knock the talents of "Death Metal bands" But I've often wondered what the purpose of the growling was. I just don't like music with out at least moderatly good vocals (and I understand that is purely a matter of personal taste to say that growling is not good vocals), perhaps he was just trying to convey that same preference only in a more blunt way.

Actually, I don't really care about vocals at all. I'm more into musical construct and guitars...

Dark Horse
11-15-2006, 05:08 PM
Actually, I don't really care about vocals at all. I'm more into musical construct and guitars...

2 things make music good to me good guitars and vocals. To be good 1 of the 2 is required to be great both are required

Nightwish
11-15-2006, 06:50 PM
2 things make music good to me good guitars and vocals. To be good 1 of the 2 is required to be great both are requiredI'm with you on that, at least as far as requiring good vocals, though I would say really good, and great, music is a broader package than just the vocals and guitars. Reaper and I agree on a lot of things, but one area where we differ is that I just can't get past the vocals on most black and death metal bands. As vocalists go, RJD is one of the best ever. He was by far the best Sabbath vocalist, in terms of talent. The problem was that as a solo artist, he just didn't have the longevity and staying power that the bands with whom you're comparing him have, bands like Priest and Maiden (and without a doubt, Maiden has had the better staying power between those two). Dio's first two albums were great, Sacred Heart was decent, but everything after that has been really hit and miss (I really enjoyed the first half of Killing the Dragon, though).

Dartgod
11-15-2006, 07:51 PM
I don't know what you mean by "classic", but Deep Purple has to rank up there somewhere.

Dark Horse
11-15-2006, 10:03 PM
I'm with you on that, at least as far as requiring good vocals, though I would say really good, and great, music is a broader package than just the vocals and guitars. Reaper and I agree on a lot of things, but one area where we differ is that I just can't get past the vocals on most black and death metal bands. As vocalists go, RJD is one of the best ever. He was by far the best Sabbath vocalist, in terms of talent. The problem was that as a solo artist, he just didn't have the longevity and staying power that the bands with whom you're comparing him have, bands like Priest and Maiden (and without a doubt, Maiden has had the better staying power between those two). Dio's first two albums were great, Sacred Heart was decent, but everything after that has been really hit and miss (I really enjoyed the first half of Killing the Dragon, though).

I guess the staying power thing is misleading what was the last album Priest released. Like I have said its all a matter of preference I thought the first four of Dios solo albums were awesome and have not found one I didn't like right up to Master of the Moon. I agree on Iron Maiden and after much thought and discussion must concede that they are the greatest classic metal band I also think they have the best guitar riffs.It does take more than good vocals and guitars but those are the 2 things I look for first.

chagrin
11-15-2006, 10:10 PM
I guess the staying power thing is misleading what was the last album Priest released. Like I have said its all a matter of preference I thought the first four of Dios solo albums were awesome and have not found one I didn't like right up to Master of the Moon. I agree on Iron Maiden and after much thought and discussion must concede that they are the greatest classic metal band I also think they have the best guitar riffs.It does take more than good vocals and guitars but those are the 2 things I look for first.

Dude, I have bowed out of this until I saw this post. Are you again questioning Judas Priest and now their "staying power" I probably really do mean this, but I don't - how old are you? Judas Priest and the songs I mentioned in my last post, all were recorded from early 1970s to 1980. How the hell can you still sit here and say on one hand that "it's a matter of opinion" and then say "I guess the staying power thing is misleading what was the last album Priest released. Like I have said its all a matter of preference..." You are all over the map on this, and your opinions are good in the respect that you are passionate, but don't just talk garbage dude, bagging on staying power? Please, Judas is older and more of a pioneer METAL band that Iron Maiden ever will be, and I LOVE Iron Maiden totally!

You should just say that you like DIO the best and that's it, but questioning stayiong power? Absurd!

chagrin
11-15-2006, 10:13 PM
And are you saying that the "Craig Goldy" DIO Albums are "awesome"?
My god dude, really :shake:

chagrin
11-15-2006, 10:17 PM
Somebody should download "Sinner", "The Ripper" and then wait 10 years and then download "Sanctuary" because quite frankly, I am positive you aren't including Iron Maiden's first Album in your rhetoric "Man On The Silver Mountain" and then tell us again how Paul Dianno and Ronnie James Dio pioneered Heavy Metal before Judas Priest.

Dark Horse
11-15-2006, 10:23 PM
Dude, I have bowed out of this until I saw this post. Are you again questioning Judas Priest and now their "staying power" I probably really do mean thins, but I don't - how old are you? Judas Priest and the songs I mentioned in my last post, all were recorded from early 1970s to 1980. How the hell can you still sit here and say on one hand that "it's a matter of opinion" and then say "I guess the staying power thing is misleading what was the last album Priest released. Like I have said its all a matter of preference..." You are all over the map on this, and your opinions are good in the respect that you are passionte, but don't just talk garbae dude, bagging on staying power? Please, Judas is older and more of a pioneer METAL band that Iron Maiden ever will be, and I LOVE Iron Maiden totally!

You should just say that you like DIO the best and that's it, but questioning stayiong power? Absurd!

Take it easy man I'm not knocking Judas Priest and I'm old enough to have 8 tracks of their early albums. The staying power was in reference to the lack of new albums but they do have 5 years on Maiden and debuted the same year as Dio and Ritchie Blackmore in rainbow.
I can see you are vey passionate as well and hopefully we can respectfully agree to disagree.

Dark Horse
11-15-2006, 10:26 PM
Somebody should download "Sinner", "The Ripper" and then wait 10 years and then download "Sanctuary" because quite frankly, I am positive you aren't including Iron Maiden's first Album in your rhetoric "Man On The Silver Mountain" and then tell us again how Paul Dianno and Ronnie James Dio pioneered Heavy Metal before Judas Priest.

I'm not saying they pioneered Heavy metal just that they were great. Black sabbath pioneered heavy metal.

htismaqe
11-16-2006, 10:39 AM
2 things make music good to me good guitars and vocals. To be good 1 of the 2 is required to be great both are required

I strongly disagree.

Lemmy has a horrible voice.

Motorhead is GREAT.

htismaqe
11-16-2006, 10:40 AM
I'm not saying they pioneered Heavy metal just that they were great. Black sabbath pioneered heavy metal.

Both Judas Priest and Iron Maiden "pioneered" metal.

patteeu
11-16-2006, 11:01 AM
I'm sorry that I instigated the "staying power" debate when I said I thought Iron Maiden was relevant longer. I'm old enough that I started listening to Judas Priest before Iron Maiden put out their first LP although I don't go back to the beginning with Priest. I like a lot of what's on the earliest Priest albums, but to me it wasn't until Hell Bent For Leather, Unleashed In The East, and British Steel their (5th, 6th, and 7th LPs) that they reached the same quality level that Maiden achieved when they put out Number of the Beast (their 3rd). As for their earlier stuff, I prefer Maiden's first 2 to Priests first 4. It might have just been my age, but my interest level in Priest started to decline sometime around Defenders of the Faith or Turbo and I lost almost all interest when Halford left after Painkiller. Iron Maiden continued to interest me well into the 90's, although now that I look at it, both bands held my interest about the same length of time and for about the same number of albums.

From my personal musical perspective, I thought Priest had a higher peak and Iron maiden had a higher quality run over the longer period of time. YMMV

patteeu
11-16-2006, 11:06 AM
*snobs avert your eyes*

FWIW, as I was looking back over the Judas Priest and Iron Maiden histories, I found that both made MTV's Top 10 Greatest Metal Bands list (http://www.mtv.com/bands/m/metal/greatest_metal_bands/071406/index.jhtml):

1. Black Sabbath
2. Judas Priest
3. Metallica
4. Iron Maiden
5. Pantera
6. Slayer
7. AC/DC
8. Motorhead
9. Kiss
10. Motley Crue

Bowser
11-16-2006, 12:14 PM
Motley Crue - Metal Gods


LMAO

Bowser
11-16-2006, 12:14 PM
Motley Crue - Metal Gods


LMAO

And Kiss, too! LMAO

Dark Horse
11-16-2006, 05:06 PM
I'm sorry that I instigated the "staying power" debate when I said I thought Iron Maiden was relevant longer. I'm old enough that I started listening to Judas Priest before Iron Maiden put out their first LP although I don't go back to the beginning with Priest. I like a lot of what's on the earliest Priest albums, but to me it wasn't until Hell Bent For Leather, Unleashed In The East, and British Steel their (5th, 6th, and 7th LPs) that they reached the same quality level that Maiden achieved when they put out Number of the Beast (their 3rd). As for their earlier stuff, I prefer Maiden's first 2 to Priests first 4. It might have just been my age, but my interest level in Priest started to decline sometime around Defenders of the Faith or Turbo and I lost almost all interest when Halford left after Painkiller. Iron Maiden continued to interest me well into the 90's, although now that I look at it, both bands held my interest about the same length of time and for about the same number of albums.

From my personal musical perspective, I thought Priest had a higher peak and Iron maiden had a higher quality run over the longer period of time. YMMV

No need to apologize passion and preference aside this is still a good natured discussion

Dark Horse
11-16-2006, 05:07 PM
Both Judas Priest and Iron Maiden "pioneered" metal.

You are correct Sabbath was just the first and even that was due to a quirk of fate.

Dark Horse
11-16-2006, 05:10 PM
I strongly disagree.

Lemmy has a horrible voice.

Motorhead is GREAT.

You have stated that vocals don't matter to you so this is an understandable conclusion

htismaqe
11-17-2006, 10:04 AM
You are correct Sabbath was just the first and even that was due to a quirk of fate.

There were bands experimenting with a "heavy" sound before Sabbath even...

The whole subject is highly subjective...

htismaqe
11-17-2006, 10:05 AM
You have stated that vocals don't matter to you so this is an understandable conclusion

Are you trying to suggest Motorhead is not great?

They are great, and that's NOT an opinion. :D

Dark Horse
11-17-2006, 06:18 PM
Are you trying to suggest Motorhead is not great?



No way am I going down that road again.

They are great, and that's NOT an opinion. :D

I think most people who like metal are like I am in this regard, I don't care if my friends don't like it. I really don't care if the critics don't like it. It does not matter to me if it's popular or if you can find it played on the radio or mtv. I could be the only true fan of a band and if I like their music I'm going to listen to it I really don't care what anyone thinks. Metal musicians at least most have the same mind set that I'm going to play my music my way and if you don't like it you can kiss my ass I won't conform.

Dark Horse
11-17-2006, 06:22 PM
There were bands experimenting with a "heavy" sound before Sabbath even...

The whole subject is highly subjective...

True but if you have one band to look back at and say they were the ones who got this thing off the ground that band would be Sabbath.

Easy 6
11-17-2006, 08:44 PM
Sabbath with Ozzy...is there REALLY any question.

They are the true Godfathers of Metal.

Easy 6
11-17-2006, 08:47 PM
And Kiss, too! LMAO


Every single major metal artist i have ever seen interviewed has always paid much homage to KISS, not just the image but the music as well.

Dimebag is shaking his head at you right now... :shake:

Reaper16
11-17-2006, 08:58 PM
Every single major metal artist i have ever seen interviewed has always paid much homage to KISS, not just the image but the music as well.

Dimebag is shaking his head at you right now... :shake:
KISS are cool, but its patently obvious that they play rock and roll when you listen to thier music.

Dark Horse
11-17-2006, 09:40 PM
Every single major metal artist i have ever seen interviewed has always paid much homage to KISS, not just the image but the music as well.

Dimebag is shaking his head at you right now... :shake:

I remember when Kiss toyed with the idea of going disco yecch!

ChiefFripp
11-17-2006, 10:15 PM
F@ck Kiss! I have always loathed that band.

Nightwish
11-18-2006, 12:42 AM
KISS are cool, but its patently obvious that they play rock and roll when you listen to thier music.
I agree, what KISS plays is not what I would classify as metal. "Glam metal," maybe, but that's more closely related to hard rock than to heavy metal, in my opinion. However, they've definitely had a lot of influence of quite a few true heavy metal bands. Queen is another band that isn't really heavy metal, but heavily influences metal bands.

Easy 6
11-18-2006, 07:37 AM
I remember when Kiss toyed with the idea of going disco yecch!


You will never catch me defending those dark days, nor their present ridiculous charade.

Although i will stand proudly next to "I was made for loving you", i just cant help it, its got more hooks than a tackle box.

Easy 6
11-18-2006, 07:40 AM
KISS are cool, but its patently obvious that they play rock and roll when you listen to thier music.


I can agree with that, i suppose what i really meant to say is that their influence crosses all of rock's boundaries.

They will prolly never get into the HOF, but the fans & other bands know the score.

StcChief
11-18-2006, 09:25 AM
Defining 'Classic band' = before 1975. IMO SEE AOR definition.

So that leaves: Led Zeppelin, Black Sabbath.

KISS was a glam band.

Dark Horse
11-18-2006, 12:21 PM
You will never catch me defending those dark days, nor their present ridiculous charade.

Although i will stand proudly next to "I was made for loving you", i just cant help it, its got more hooks than a tackle box.

I have to admit I like the song too, but I can get enouououough

Dark Horse
11-18-2006, 12:22 PM
Defining 'Classic band' = before 1975.

So that leaves: Led Zeppelin, Black Sabbath.

KISS was a glam band.

Source?
Isn't a car considered a classic after 25 years?

foxman
11-18-2006, 01:04 PM
I discovered Ozzy first with Blizzard of Oz, which lead me into Sabboth, although I was never a fan of RJD, so I was more into the Ozzy lead Sabboth and have owned most of their early stuff at one point or another. I was more into Rush, Van Halen, Scorpians and AC/DC during this time and it wasnt until I discovered Maiden with Number of the Beast and Priest with Screaming for Vengeance in 82 that I really started to get into more of the Metal genre. For me Iron Maiden was my favorite Metal band even though Sabbath was great. There was always going to be a limit for me with Sabbath since I didnt care for the lead singer there was never going to be that next new release for me.

If you look, in 82 there was some fantastic music put out.

htismaqe
11-19-2006, 12:32 PM
Defining 'Classic band' = before 1975.

So that leaves: Led Zeppelin, Black Sabbath.

KISS was a glam band.

Who cares if they were glam? They influenced tons of metal bands.

StcChief
11-20-2006, 10:21 AM
Who cares if they were glam? They influenced tons of metal bands.

Glam as well Metal the followed both types.

I always saw too much Glam, change from Glam to disco style etc.

I would agree their metal influence was there for 80s bands 'Metal's 2nd Generation bands


BTW Classic Rock has nothing to DO with Car age comparison equivalence.

htismaqe
11-20-2006, 10:42 AM
Glam as well Metal the followed both types.

I always saw too much Glam, change from Glam to disco style etc.

I would agree their metal influence was there for 80s bands 'Metal's 2nd Generation bands

BTW Classic Rock has nothing to DO with Car age comparison equivalence.

Um, KISS had a profound influence on bands like Slayer and even newer bands like Slipknot. REAL glam bands (honestly, KISS wasn't a glam band) like The Spiders from Mars influenced all kinds of sounds in the 80's and 90's.

And as for your last sentence, speak English if you want to get your point across.

Dark Horse
11-20-2006, 11:10 AM
BTW Classic Rock has nothing to DO with Car age comparison equivalence.

Ok I can live with that, just state your source.

StcChief
11-20-2006, 12:31 PM
Ok I can live with that, just state your source.
Derived from a Radio format called Album Oriented Rock (AOR)

The About definition is broader than mine I generally limit mine to
~1967 to 1975/1977.

http://classicrock.about.com/od/history/a/crock_IOI.htm

Dartgod
11-20-2006, 12:43 PM
Defining 'Classic band' = before 1975.

So that leaves: Led Zeppelin, Black Sabbath.

KISS was a glam band.
Deep Purple released Machine Head in 1972 (Space Truckin', Lazy, Smoke on the Water and Highway Star).

MOhillbilly
11-20-2006, 12:50 PM
Jerry Lee Lewis - the guy played a piano. how much more heavy metal you need?

StcChief
11-20-2006, 01:19 PM
Deep Purple released Machine Head in 1972 (Space Truckin', Lazy, Smoke on the Water and Highway Star).


Well YES.

Deep Purple was definitely a pioneer in Metal IMO. I just forgot about them.

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deep_Purple

chagrin
11-20-2006, 02:04 PM
Derived from a Radio format called Album Oriented Rock (AOR)

The About definition is broader than mine I generally limit mine to
~1967 to 1975/1977.

http://classicrock.about.com/od/history/a/crock_IOI.htm


Good link, dude - I can't believe this is still going on though.

Dark Horse
11-20-2006, 04:27 PM
Derived from a Radio format called Album Oriented Rock (AOR)

The About definition is broader than mine I generally limit mine to
~1967 to 1975/1977.

http://classicrock.about.com/od/history/a/crock_IOI.htm

Thanks.

htismaqe
11-20-2006, 10:18 PM
Well YES.

Deep Purple was definitely a pioneer in Metal IMO. I just forgot about them.

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deep_Purple

I think I mentioned DP somewhere in the discussion about Ronnie James Dio (the only frontman to play with Iommi AND Blackmore)

Nightwish
11-21-2006, 04:18 PM
I think I mentioned DP somewhere in the discussion about Ronnie James Dio (the only frontman to play with Iommi AND Blackmore)
That's incorrect. Dio played with Iommi in Sabbath, and with Blackmore in Rainbow. Gillian played with Iommi in Sabbath, and with Blackmore in Deep Purple.

htismaqe
11-21-2006, 04:19 PM
That's incorrect. Dio played with Iommi in Sabbath, and with Blackmore in Rainbow. Gillian played with Iommi in Sabbath, and with Blackmore in Deep Purple.

Hey you're right! I forgot Ian fronted post-Ozzy Sabbath for a bit...post-Ozzy Sabbath is pretty easy to forget...

Nightwish
11-21-2006, 04:24 PM
Hey you're right! I forgot Ian fronted post-Ozzy Sabbath for a bit...post-Ozzy Sabbath is pretty easy to forget...
Yeah, "Born Again" didn't do all that well. Still, it's one of my favorite Sabbath albums. They really became forgettable during the Ray Gillen/Glen Hughes years.

htismaqe
11-22-2006, 12:49 PM
I'm sitting here listening to a song most people have forgotten, and realize that it's probably the quintessential foundation of modern metal...

"Children of the Grave"

Chiefnj
11-22-2006, 01:06 PM
Yeah, "Born Again" didn't do all that well. Still, it's one of my favorite Sabbath albums. They really became forgettable during the Ray Gillen/Glen Hughes years.

I had forgotten about Born Again. I think I ended up wearing out the tape. That was a good album.

"So we drank some whiskey just to steady our brain, 'cuz there was no tequila.."

MOhillbilly
11-22-2006, 03:29 PM
take your pick

http://i5.photobucket.com/albums/y163/erinmccool/555187378_l.jpg