The New Dem Climate In D.C.

[Kraut]

I was happy to see that the new Speaker to be, Nancy Pelosi, came out and stated that the Dems are going to change Washington for the better. She is going to lead the charge towards ethics and accountability. And her choice to be a leader for truth and ethics is the great John Murtha. What a choice, Nancy ! :clap:

http://beyonddelay.org/summaries/murtha.php

[bkkcoh]

It is nice for her to say that now, but it is totally opposite from what some of the other leadership in congress are saying.

This is one of those times in which we will wait and see if it comes to pass...

[D2112]

Selecting Murtha is a great bipartisan move by Pelosi!!! :rolleyes: :shake:

[patteeu]

"I'm not interested... at this point." John Murtha to FBI agents posing as Arab businessmen when they offered him a bribe in the ABSCAM (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abscam) stings of the late 70s. Besides indicating that he might be interested at some later point, Murtha failed to report the bribe attempt to the FBI as he was obliged to do under House ethics rules.

In a letter in 2002, former Congressman Don Bailey, who sat on the panel that considered ethics charges against Murtha in the ABSCAM affair, wrote the following open letter (http://www.politicspa.com/FEATURES/baileylttomurtha.htm) to Murtha:

May 5, 2002

Dear Jack,

I’m writing on matters of joint concern. A number of weeks ago I was talking with someone who is a mutual acquaintance and your name came up. It was an unusually frank discussion and I considered it private. I did relate some opinions about you and shared some recollections about experiences with you in Congress. I was, to be honest, critical about how you misled me about ABSCAM where you convinced me you had voluntarily told federal agents about the offer of money to you and I learned later, after I had successfully defeated the ethics charges against you, that you had merely manipulated the system to cooperate with federal agents to avoid prosecution.

...

Sincerely,

Don Bailey

Thank goodness we have the democrats in town now to clean the place up. ;)

BTW, I'm sure the original ABSCAM video of Murtha entertaining bribe offers from "Arabs" is available on YouTube.

[patteeu]

The rumor that seems even more disturbing than the one about Pelosi backing Murtha for majority leader is the one about Pelosi passing over Jane Harman for the chairman of the intelligence committee. Harman's sin? She worked too well across party lines. As a result, the person who everyone agrees is the most well qualified democrat and who is the senior democrat member of the intelligence committee is going to be pushed aside for a more loyal democrat partisan. This is the way democrats play the "new climate" game.

[Kraut]

The rumor that seems even more disturbing than the one about Pelosi backing Murtha for majority leader is the one about Pelosi passing over Jane Harman for the chairman of the intelligence committee. Harman's sin? She worked too well across party lines. As a result, the person who everyone agrees is the most well qualified democrat and who is the senior democrat member of the intelligence committee is going to be pushed aside for a more loyal democrat partisan. This is the way democrats play the "new climate" game.
Business as usual in Washington. Not a damn thing is going to change. I'm just gonna sit back and watch these turds continue to make fools of themselves.

[bkkcoh]

Business as usual in Washington. Not a damn thing is going to change. I'm just gonna sit back and watch these turds continue to make fools of themselves.

Yeah, I am hoping that they don't screw up things too much....


Gridlock might not be a bad thing, since when there is gridlock, nothing takes place. They could be better for the country than and mass of changes...

[Velvet_Jones]

I think I remember that W was going to change Washington by bringing civility between parties. The Dems would not allow that. Now that the Dems are in power, they want the same thing. The chicken is about ready to come to roost. I hope it s h i ts on Nancy’s head.

Apparently she thinks people are not going to remember her previous actions.

[Chief Faithful]

The rumor that seems even more disturbing than the one about Pelosi backing Murtha for majority leader is the one about Pelosi passing over Jane Harman for the chairman of the intelligence committee. Harman's sin? She worked too well across party lines. As a result, the person who everyone agrees is the most well qualified democrat and who is the senior democrat member of the intelligence committee is going to be pushed aside for a more loyal democrat partisan. This is the way democrats play the "new climate" game.

Harman's sin is she does not support 'cut and run'...excuse me...make that 'phased redeployment'.

[Calcountry]

Yeah, I am hoping that they don't screw up things too much....


Gridlock might not be a bad thing, since when there is gridlock, nothing takes place. They could be better for the country than and mass of changes...I do. I hope they screw the country up good, because then we can win an election without offering an agenda.

[noa]

I do. I hope they screw the country up good, because then we can win an election without offering an agenda.


You blame the Democrats for rooting against the troops so Bush could fail and they could take power, and then you hope the Dems fail just so the Repubs can take power back. That's a bit hypocritical. In both cases, people are rooting against their own country for the sake of power.

[patteeu]

You blame the Democrats for rooting against the troops so Bush could fail and they could take power, and then you hope the Dems fail just so the Repubs can take power back. That's a bit hypocritical. In both cases, people are rooting against their own country for the sake of power.

I think he's making a point by reflecting the behavior of many democrats while they were out of power. It's not hypocritical, it's performance art.

[noa]

I think he's making a point by reflecting the behavior of many democrats while they were out of power. It's not hypocritical, it's performance art.


I'm too busy rooting against our troops and cutting & running to have a sense of humor. :)

[Adept Havelock]

I'm too busy rooting against our troops and cutting & running to have a sense of humor. :)

:LOL:

[bkkcoh]

I do. I hope they screw the country up good, because then we can win an election without offering an agenda.


I wonder if the reps will run with opposition viewpoints, without any real ideas, just like the dems did this time. It was good enough to just oppose the reps.

[banyon]

Selecting Murtha is a great bipartisan move by Pelosi!!! :rolleyes: :shake:

He's fairly moderate. Would you have been happier if she had chosen Dennis Kucinich?

[bkkcoh]

He's fairly moderate. Would you have been happier if she had chosen Dennis Kucinich?


And Pelosi is considered too conservative in her own district.....

What is your point of reference...... that is the question.

[D2112]

He's fairly moderate. Would you have been happier if she had chosen Dennis Kucinich?
ROFL
Fairly moderate???what is that??in your opinion of course..

[banyon]

ROFL
Fairly moderate???what is that??

His ADA rating is more conservative than most of his Dem colleagues.

[D2112]

His ADA rating is more conservative than most of his Dem colleagues.
He was jumping up and down, whining at press conferences about Marines in Iraq..that is a partisan bulldog!!!
His military record gives the Democrats the shield of invulnerability!!!

[banyon]

He was jumping up and down, whining at press conferences about Marines in Iraq..that is a partisan bulldog!!!
His military record gives the Democrats the shield of invulnerability!!!
I would've gone with Rahm Emanuel, but Pelosi is too afraid of him I think.

But just because he is against Bush on this retarded war, that is only 1 issue. Given the totality of his view on other issues, he is a moderate Dem.

[patteeu]

I would've gone with Rahm Emanuel, but Pelosi is too afraid of him I think.

But just because he is against Bush on this retarded war, that is only 1 issue. Given the totality of his view on other issues, he is a moderate Dem.

I think Rahm Emanuel deserves a leadership position and would be good at it. I'm glad he stepped aside (from the whip candidacy or whatever it was that he was considering running for).

Murtha will have to be kept out of the spotlight in the long run I think. He's not a strong spokesperson for the party, IMO. I don't know how good his organizational/management skills are.

[bkkcoh]

His ADA rating is more conservative than most of his Dem colleagues.


Did you really take a look at the ratings for between the dems and the reps.....


I doubt if you did. It seems as me that the organization that came up with these numbers is a little biased to begin with, don't you?


"ADA is America's oldest independent liberal lobbying organization. In the spirit of the New Deal and ADA founders Eleanor Roosevelt, renowned economist John Kenneth Galbraith, and former Senator and Vice President Hubert Humphrey ADA lobbies through coalition partnerships, through direct advocacy, and through the media. ADA's lobbying philosophy is based on democratic action - motivating our grassroots members to lobby their senators and representatives as constituent-advocates."


Here is the information from the Dems:

Max 100
Average 91.55870445
Min 55 (E. Benjamin 'Ben' Nelson and David Daniel 'Dan' Boren)



Here is the information from the Reps:

Max 75 (Lincoln Chafee, known as 1 of the most lib reps)
Average 9.87854251
Min 0

[banyon]

Did you really take a look at the ratings for between the dems and the reps.....


I doubt if you did. It seems as me that the organization that came up with these numbers is a little biased to begin with, don't you?



Here is the information from the Dems:

Max 100
Average 91.55870445
Min 55 (E. Benjamin 'Ben' Nelson and David Daniel 'Dan' Boren)



Here is the information from the Reps:

Max 75 (Lincoln Chafee, known as 1 of the most lib reps)
Average 9.87854251
Min 0

Yeah, I did. I measured him against other Dems and not against Repubs, since that's the party for which he's running for leader. His rating was 85, which is lower than most Dems, the mode (mathematical average) was 95.

How else would you measure him?

Hopefully you do understand that calling him a moderate Dem is not the same as calling him a moderate.

[KCWolfman]

You blame the Democrats for rooting against the troops so Bush could fail and they could take power, and then you hope the Dems fail just so the Repubs can take power back. That's a bit hypocritical. In both cases, people are rooting against their own country for the sake of power.
And how do you feel about the choice of Murtha?

[noa]

And how do you feel about the choice of Murtha?


They didn't choose Murtha. See my thread I started earlier today. Hoyer is the House Majority Leader.

[KCWolfman]

They didn't choose Murtha. See my thread I started earlier today. Hoyer is the House Majority Leader.
Perhaps you misunderstood my question... and how do you feel about the possible selection of Murtha?

[noa]

Perhaps you misunderstood my question... and how do you feel about the possible selection of Murtha?


I'm glad he didn't get it. I think it was a good idea to have a moderate Dem in the leadership. It also helps that Hoyer doesn't appear to have connections to corruption like Murtha does.

[Logical]

I think he's making a point by reflecting the behavior of many democrats while they were out of power. It's not hypocritical, it's performance art.This would be a better defense had he made it.

[Adept Havelock]

I think Rahm Emanuel deserves a leadership position and would be good at it. I'm glad he stepped aside (from the whip candidacy or whatever it was that he was considering running for).



I'm glad too. It means he can continue to focus on his effective election strategy in '08 to hold the Dems majority when McCain takes the White House.

[Calcountry]

I was happy to see that the new Speaker to be, Nancy Pelosi, came out and stated that the Dems are going to change Washington for the better. She is going to lead the charge towards ethics and accountability. And her choice to be a leader for truth and ethics is the great John Murtha. What a choice, Nancy ! :clap:

http://beyonddelay.org/summaries/murtha.php

Many of you youngins never heard of Abscam before, but my pops had a subscription to Time back in the pre internet days.

I cannot believe that a fossil from that era is still breathing, but alas, in the Democrat party, you are in for life. cough cough Ted cough Kennedy.

Robert K.K.K. Byrd.

[Calcountry]

"I'm not interested... at this point." John Murtha to FBI agents posing as Arab businessmen when they offered him a bribe in the ABSCAM (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abscam) stings of the late 70s. Besides indicating that he might be interested at some later point, Murtha failed to report the bribe attempt to the FBI as he was obliged to do under House ethics rules.

In a letter in 2002, former Congressman Don Bailey, who sat on the panel that considered ethics charges against Murtha in the ABSCAM affair, wrote the following open letter (http://www.politicspa.com/FEATURES/baileylttomurtha.htm) to Murtha:



Thank goodness we have the democrats in town now to clean the place up. ;)

BTW, I'm sure the original ABSCAM video of Murtha entertaining bribe offers from "Arabs" is available on YouTube.What it take, 30 years for them to get the goods on the guy. Where is Abramov when you need him.

[KCWolfman]

I'm glad he didn't get it. I think it was a good idea to have a moderate Dem in the leadership. It also helps that Hoyer doesn't appear to have connections to corruption like Murtha does.
Now you are just avoiding my question

[noa]

Now you are just avoiding my question


So you are asking, what do I think about the face that Murtha was even nominated for it? I think the Dems felt that they owed Murtha the chance because his stance on Iraq made a big difference for them. It was a move of gratitude. What do you think of his nomination?

[penchief]

I have to say that I didn't really know anything about Hoyer. But he was very impressive on Hardball last night. I think the dems are putting together a serious and potentially very effective team. And I do believe that they are going to try to make the appropriate changes.

There will be a lot of people that will point to oversight as evidence of their partisanship but they do have a job to do. And if they are to be taken seriously they will have to do that job.

Somebody has to restore responsibility, fairness, and transparency to our government. The people of this country felt a change was necessary to get that accomplished. I think the democratic party sincerely wants to change the tone and restore integrity to Washington. I'm hoping like hell they can.

[patteeu]

I have to say that I didn't really know anything about Hoyer. But he was very impressive on Hardball last night. I think the dems are putting together a serious and potentially very effective team. And I do believe that they are going to try to make the appropriate changes.

There will be a lot of people that will point to oversight as evidence of their partisanship but they do have a job to do. And if they are to be taken seriously they will have to do that job.

Somebody has to restore responsibility, fairness, and transparency to our government. The people of this country felt a change was necessary to get that accomplished. I think the democratic party sincerely wants to change the tone and restore integrity to Washington. I'm hoping like hell they can.

Well that would be ridiculous. Everyone knows that when the left does it, it's pragmatic government. It's only when the right targets the left that it's cynical manipulation and heavy handed oppression.

[penchief]

Well that would be ridiculous. Everyone knows that when the left does it, it's pragmatic government. It's only when the right targets the left that it's cynical manipulation and heavy handed oppression.

Let's just wait to see if they want to look at war profiteering versus blow jobs before we make that determination.

[noa]

It's only when the right targets the left that it's cynical manipulation and heavy handed oppression.

I'm assuming that you are referring to the Clinton investigation where we spent $60 million in tax dollars to find out if they guy got a blowjob and lied about it. To me, that is not pragmatic government in the way that holding war profiteers accountable is. :shrug:

[Mr. Kotter]

I'm assuming that you are referring to the Clinton investigation where we spent $60 million in tax dollars to find out if they guy got a blowjob and lied about it. To me, that is not pragmatic government in the way that holding war profiteers accountable is. :shrug:
You conveniently gloss over a sitting President, egaged in acts of obstructing justice and perjury....let alon, bold face lying (as opposed to "no comment" or simple evasion) to the American people.

I campaigned for Clinton, as a DLC Democrat I was excited and optimistic when he was elected. His acts though, not only disillusioned many people like me who had supported him....they humilated his family and the nation, while establishing a dangerous precedent: "...if the President thinks something is too personal, he can lie about it....."

It's a good thing most Americans rejected that notion, even if they thought removing him from office was a case of overkill.

[noa]

You conveniently gloss over a sitting President, egaged in acts of obstructing justice and perjury....let alon, bold face lying (as opposed to "no comment" or simple evasion) to the American people.

I campaigned for Clinton, as a DLC Democrat I was excited and optimistic when he was elected. His acts though, not only disillusioned many people like me who had supported him....they humilated his family and the nation, while establishing a dangerous precedent: "...if the President thinks something is too personal, he can lie about it....."

It's a good thing most Americans rejected that notion, even if they thought removing him from office was a case of overkill.


I'm not defending Clinton's actions. I'm just saying that I think it is much more important for our country that we investigate allegations of war profiteering than investigate whether our president lied about his affair. Its not as if Clinton was the first president to have affairs in office or the first president to lie while in office. I consider investigating what's going on in Iraq if there is war profiteering or gross mismanagement a better use of government than investigating Clinton.

[Mr. Kotter]

I'm not defending Clinton's actions. I'm just saying that I think it is much more important for our country that we investigate allegations of war profiteering than investigate whether our president lied about his affair. Its not as if Clinton was the first president to have affairs in office or the first president to lie while in office. I consider investigating what's going on in Iraq if there is war profiteering or gross mismanagement a better use of government than investigating Clinton.

You dismiss the investigation of Clinton's behavior, based on previous incidents of similar behavior by other Presidents....

Do you know the extent of graft and corruption in the Union Army during the Civil War....and of "profiteering" and "mismanagement" by Grant's Army? Or Sherman's?

Or what of similar charges that were dismissed during WWI and WWII? Or Korea? Or in Vietnam? Guess what? This is hardly a first...either. Such charges, now, as then, will be difficult if not impossible to prove....

I'm not saying we shouldn't investigate. We should, but it needs to be done prudently and not in the course of some partisan witch hunt. I'm not sure Pelosi and the others are up to being able to rise above it. We shall see, I guess. WHO they put in charge and HOW they proceed over the next 2-3 months will say a lot....

[noa]

Do you know the extent of graft and corruption in the Union Army during the Civil War....and of "profiteering" and "mismanagement" by Grant's Army? Or Sherman's?

Yes, effective government oversight would have been nice

Or what of similar charges that were dismissed during WWI and WWII? Or Korea? Or in Vietnam? Guess what? This is hardly a first...either. Such charges, now, as then, will be difficult if not impossible to prove....

At least we investigated and tried. The Truman Commission saved our country $15 billion during WWII by rooting out waste and fraud.

I'm not saying we shouldn't investigate. We should, but it needs to be done prudently and not in the course of some partisan witch hunt. I'm not sure Pelosi and the others are up to being able to rise above it. We shall see, I guess. WHO they put in charge and HOW they proceed over the next 2-3 months will say a lot....

I share your concerns.

[Mr. Kotter]

Yes, effective government oversight would have been nice

At least we investigated and tried. The Truman Commission saved our country $15 billion during WWII by rooting out waste and fraud.

I share your concerns.

Fair enough. :thumb:

[KCWolfman]

So you are asking, what do I think about the face that Murtha was even nominated for it? I think the Dems felt that they owed Murtha the chance because his stance on Iraq made a big difference for them. It was a move of gratitude. What do you think of his nomination?
So you have no problem with his sordid past?

[patteeu]

I'm assuming that you are referring to the Clinton investigation where we spent $60 million in tax dollars to find out if they guy got a blowjob and lied about it. To me, that is not pragmatic government in the way that holding war profiteers accountable is. :shrug:

Actually, I was referring to penchief's typical style on this board where he equates the mainstream right with extreme evil and the far left with pragmatism. For the record though, I disagree with your characterization of the Clinton investigations.

[penchief]

So you have no problem with his sordid past?

This is not about Clinton. Get over it.

This is about governmental misconduct.

Big difference, IMO.

[penchief]

Actually, I was referring to penchief's typical style on this board where he equates the mainstream right with extreme evil and the far left with pragmatism. For the record though, I disagree with your characterization of the Clinton investigations.

It's obvious that you are reading your own interpretations into my posts. Just because we have differing viewpoints does not mean that you can point to my "typical style" without pondering the giste of what I'm saying. It is not enough to paint my opinions with your broad brush.

I'm cautiously optimistic that the democrats can plant the seeds of change that would ultimately have a positive impact on the tone and integrity of Washington, DC.

Are you willing to give them a chance? Bush had his chance and he created a debacle in this country. Can we try pragmatism for a while, please?

[Mr. Kotter]

It's obvious that you are reading your own interpretations into my posts. Just because we have differing viewpoints does not mean that you can point to my "typical style" without pondering the giste of what I'm saying. It is not enough to paint my opinions with your broad brush.

I'm cautiously optimistic that the democrats can plant the seeds of change that would ultimately have a positive impact on the tone and integrity of Washington, DC.

Are you willing to give them a chance? Bush had his chance and he created a debacle in this country. Can we try pragmatism for a while, please?
STFU

He's 100% right.

:)

[Mr. Kotter]

This is not about Clinton. Get over it.

This is about governmental misconduct.

Big difference, IMO.FWIW, he was talking about Murtha.

:rolleyes:

[penchief]

FWIW, he was talking about Murtha.

:rolleyes:

Sorry, the last few posts on this thread (pg. 3) caused me to jump to conclusions. Even if you're talking about Murtha, it's still a distraction from the failures of our current regime.

I don't necessarily approve of Murtha. And I think that the democratic leadership vote in the house reflected that overall sentiment. I don't even believe that Pelosi is hurt by it. I honestly believe that Murtha pushed the issue and he was given his chance because he earned it in their mind. He was a major factor in opening this country's eyes to the extent of this administration's wrongheadedness in Iraq. And by doing so, planting seeds that helped to ultimately produce electoral success.

I'm glad Hoyer won. I think he'll do a better job. He has the proper tact for the job, IMO.

[KCWolfman]

This is not about Clinton. Get over it.

This is about governmental misconduct.

Big difference, IMO.
Wow, I am guessing your answer is "no". What does Clinton have to do with Abscam?

[Nightwish]

I do. I hope they screw the country up good, because then we can win an election without offering an agenda.
Should we take this as a tacit admission, then, that the Republicans "screwed up the country good?"