Jesus Not Appropriate Christmas Gift

[gblowfish]

I'm a huge fan of irony.

Marine Corps Toys for Tots turn down 4,000 "Talking Jesus Dolls" donation, because toys are "too religious."

What's this Christmas thing all about again???

Sorry Jesus, "Kids want a gift for the holiday season that is fun,"

Toys for Tots program rejects talking Jesus doll for gifts
Associated Press

A talking Jesus doll has been turned down by the Marine Reserves' Toys for Tots program.

A suburban Los Angeles company offered to donate 4,000 of the foot-tall dolls, which quote Bible verses, for distribution to needy children this holiday season. The battery-powered Jesus is one of several dolls manufactured by one2believe, a division of the Valencia-based Beverly Hills Teddy Bear Co., based on Biblical figures.

But the charity balked because of the dolls' religious nature.

Toys are donated to kids based on financial need and "we don't know anything about their background, their religious affiliations," said Bill Grein, vice president of Marine Toys for Tots Foundation, in Quantico, Va.

As a government entity, Marines "don't profess one religion over another," Grein said Tuesday. "We can't take a chance on sending a talking Jesus doll to a Jewish family or a Muslim family."

Michael La Roe, director of business development for both companies, said the charity's decision left him "surprised and disappointed."

"The idea was for them to be three-dimensional teaching tools for kids," La Roe said. "I believe as a churchgoing person, anyone can benefit from hearing the words of the Bible."

According to the company's Web site, the button-activated, bearded Jesus, dressed in hand-sewn cloth outfits and sandals, recites Scripture such as "I tell you the truth, no one can see the kingdom of God unless he is born again" and "Love your neighbor as yourself." It has a $20 retail value.

Grein also questioned whether children would welcome a gift designed for religious instruction. "Kids want a gift for the holiday season that is fun," he said.

The program distributed 18 million stuffed animals, games, toy trucks and other gifts to children in 2005.

[Sully]

Makes sense to me.

[patteeu]

I wonder which is better: getting a talking Jesus doll for Christmas or getting nothing at all?

Side note: Interestingly, "Jesus" is not a word the Firefox spell checker recognizes when you don't capitalize the first letter, but it does recognize "Allah," "Jehovah," and "Yahweh."

[noa]

I wonder which is better: getting a talking Jesus doll for Christmas or getting nothing at all?

Side note: Interestingly, "Jesus" is not a word the Firefox spell checker recognizes when you don't capitalize the first letter, but it does recognize "Allah," "Jehovah," and "Yahweh."


My version of Firefox says that allah, jehovah, and yahweh are all improper spellings unless they are capitalized. I have version 2.0

[patteeu]

My version of Firefox says that allah, jehovah, and yahweh are all improper spellings unless they are capitalized. I have version 2.0

Same here. What I meant was that when you don't capitalize those, Firefox suggests the capitalized version as a correction. When you don't capitalize "jesus" it doesn't give "Jesus" as a correction.

[noa]

Same here. What I meant was that when you don't capitalize those, Firefox suggests the capitalized version as a correction. When you don't capitalize "jesus" it doesn't give "Jesus" as a correction.


I see I see. Yeah, that's funny. Mine just recommends jests when I type in jesus.

[Bowser]

Ans there you have it. Proof positive that we evolved and were not created. :D

[irishjayhawk]

I find it hilarious.

Christmas, itself, died off years ago in favor of commercialism and "Holiday/Winter Break".

[Pitt Gorilla]

http://www.worth1000.com/web/media/22287/buddy%20jesus.jpg

[Nightwish]

While this policy may seem a little petty, it does make sense to a degree when you pause to consider that many of the needy children that benefit from the T4T program are from low-income African-American families, among whom Islam is a very popular religious affiliation, so there's a very good chance that any given recipient of one of these toys is going to be a Muslim child. I'm sure their appreciation over getting a talking Jesus doll would be about the same as that of a Christian child receiving a talking Muhammed doll.

[JBucc]

While this policy may seem a little petty, it does make sense to a degree when you pause to consider that many of the needy children that benefit from the T4T program are from low-income African-American families, among whom Islam is a very popular religious affiliation, so there's a very good chance that any given recipient of one of these toys is going to be a Muslim child. I'm sure their appreciation over getting a talking Jesus doll would be about the same as that of a Christian child receiving a talking Muhammed doll.Let's just give them a full set of talking Jesus, Muhammad, Moses, Bhudda, and uh...a talking cow I guess. Oh and a Tom Cruise.

[Nightwish]

Let's just give them a full set of talking Jesus, Muhammad, Moses, Bhudda, and uh...a talking cow I guess. Oh and a Tom Cruise.
That'll work.

[Chiefnj]

I guess this means they won't give out the combination evangelical minister and gay masseuse dolls either. Damn, it even came with realistic methamphetimine accessories.

[Nightwish]

I guess this means they won't give out the combination evangelical minister and gay masseuse dolls either. Damn, it even came with realistic methamphetimine accessories.Do the gay masseuse dolls come in a pair? That would be seriously cool! Lesbians* rule!


*a masseuse is always female, masseurs are male, for those who don't get the joke

[Cochise]

I wonder if they would reject an alternate holiday-related item and what kind of fallout there would be?

[Cochise]

http://www.toysfortots.org/ :

The Talking Jesus doll issue has been resolved. Toys for Tots has found appropriate places for these items. We have notified the donor of our willingness to handle this transaction.

[patteeu]

...a talking Muhammed doll.

I don't know. When I was a kid, if I was going to get a doll for Christmas, I think I'd have rather had one that said "Off with their heads" than "The meek shall inherit the earth." ;)

[Nightwish]

I don't know. When I was a kid, if I was going to get a doll for Christmas, I think I'd have rather had one that said "Off with their heads"That would be the Red Queen doll, a companion piece to the Alice in Wonderland doll (which looks suspiciously like Bill the Cat, with pigtails and a bottle of pills).

[Sully]

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/15753237/


LOS ANGELES - The Marine Reserves’ Toys for Tots program has decided to accept a donation of Bible-quoting Jesus dolls, reversing course after saying earlier this week that it couldn’t take them.

“The talking Jesus doll issue has been resolved,” the organization announced on its Web site Wednesday. “Toys for Tots has found appropriate places for these items. We have notified the donor of our willingness to handle this transaction.”

The short note on the Web site did not explain what it would do with the dolls.


Earlier this week, the program declined a suburban Los Angeles company’s offer to donate 4,000 of the foot-tall talking dolls. The battery-powered Jesus is one of several Bible-based dolls manufactured by one2believe, a division of the Valencia-based Beverly Hills Teddy Bear Co.

In explaining the initial decision, Bill Grein, vice president of Marine Toys for Tots Foundation, in Quantico, Va., had said the program didn’t want to take the risk of offending a Jewish or Muslim family if they received a Jesus doll.

Toys for Tots distributed 18 million stuffed animals, games, toy trucks and other gifts to children based on financial need in 2005.
© 2006 The Associated Press. All rights reserved. This material may not be published, broadcast, rewritten or redistributed

[recxjake]

I used to think Christmas and Jesus went together....hmm

[KCWolfman]

While this policy may seem a little petty, it does make sense to a degree when you pause to consider that many of the needy children that benefit from the T4T program are from low-income African-American families, among whom Islam is a very popular religious affiliation, so there's a very good chance that any given recipient of one of these toys is going to be a Muslim child. I'm sure their appreciation over getting a talking Jesus doll would be about the same as that of a Christian child receiving a talking Muhammed doll.
If gifts were given on Ramadan to non-Muslims you would have a point. As CHRISTmas is a CHRISTian holiday, you don't have one at all.

[Baby Lee]

"Happy random portion of the year where we feel guilty and give you toys!!"

[Sully]

It's funny the different meanings charity has for different people.

[Adept Havelock]

If gifts were given on Ramadan to non-Muslims you would have a point. As CHRISTmas is a CHRISTian holiday, you don't have one at all.

ROFL

What about the other gift-giving holidays that fall on the same part of the year, the older holiday the christians "appropriated" (stole is such a harsh word)- Yule, or Hanukkah?

If Toys-For-Tots was only for "christian" kids, you would have a point. As it's not, you don't have one at all.

"Happy random portion of the year where we feel guilty and give you toys!!"

Guilty? Why would I ruin a festive holiday season with guilt? I'd think that would bring down the mood at the Yule party we attend each year, or the Christmas or Hanukkah celebrations, for that matter.

[Calcountry]

Same here. What I meant was that when you don't capitalize those, Firefox suggests the capitalized version as a correction. When you don't capitalize "jesus" it doesn't give "Jesus" as a correction.Perhaps it would suggest you phonetically pronounce it, Hay sues.

[Calcountry]

I wonder if they would reject an alternate holiday-related item and what kind of fallout there would be?Habbitat for Humanity could always build them a Kwansa hut for Christmas.

[Nightwish]

If gifts were given on Ramadan to non-Muslims you would have a point. As CHRISTmas is a CHRISTian holiday, you don't have one at all.
If Christmas were a strictly Christian holiday, which it hasn't been in decades, you would have a point. There are thousands of Muslims who celebrate the secular version of Christmas, complete with the tradition of gift-giving, of which T4T is a part. Christians lost their claim on Christmas decades ago. Keep up.

[stevieray]

Christians lost their claim on Christmas decades ago. Keep up.

And in breaking news, alcoholics lost their claim on alcoholism decades ago.

[Nightwish]

And in breaking news, alcoholics lost their claim on alcoholism decades ago.
Apples and oranges. Christmas is no longer exclusively the celebration of the birth of Christ. In many households, the birth of Christ doesn't even enter into it. Christmas is Christian only in Christian households, and it's been that way for decades. Live with it.

[BucEyedPea]

Habbitat for Humanity could always build them a Kwansa hut for Christmas.
Habbitat? Is that community built by Hobbits? :)

[Logical]

If Christmas were a strictly Christian holiday, which it hasn't been in decades, you would have a point. There are thousands of Muslims who celebrate the secular version of Christmas, complete with the tradition of gift-giving, of which T4T is a part. Christians lost their claim on Christmas decades ago. Keep up.Heretic ;)

[stevieray]

Apples and oranges. Christmas is no longer exclusively the celebration of the birth of Christ. In many households, the birth of Christ doesn't even enter into it. Christmas is Christian only in Christian households, and it's been that way for decades. Live with it.

live with it? live with what? life by nightwish...? ROFL

nobody has claimed that anything is exclusive except you.

big surprise...

[Nightwish]

live with it? live with what? life by nightwish...? ROFL

nobody has claimed that anything is exclusive except you.

big surprise...
It was implied in post #21. Do try to keep up.

[redbrian]

It was implied in post #21. Do try to keep up.

Yea common Stevieray you need to keep up with the rapier wit and intellect that is Nightwish, he is a legend in his own mind you know.

[stevieray]

It was implied in post #21. Do try to keep up.

Christmas isn't a Christian Holiday?

do try to answer yes or no.

[stevieray]

Yea common Stevieray you need to keep up with the rapier wit and intellect that is Nightwish, he is a legend in his own mind you know.

he even gives up his weekends for the cause.

[Nightwish]

Christmas isn't a Christian Holiday?

In Christian households, yes. In non-Christian households, no. Understand? The Christian holiday of Christmas is the celebration of the birth of Christ. The secular holiday of Christmas is a nonsectarian celebration of the family, gift-giving, and so on. The meaning of a holiday begins and ends with what each celebrant intends it to mean. For those who intend no Christian religious observance, it is not a Christian holiday. And those people are extremely numerous. To secular celebrants of Christmas, the only thing Christmas has to do with Christianity is five letters of the alphabet.

[stevieray]

In Christian households, yes. In non-Christian households, no. Understand? The Christian holiday of Christmas is the celebration of the birth of Christ. The secular holiday of Christmas is a nonsectarian celebration of the family, gift-giving, and so on. The meaning of a holiday begins and ends with what each celebrant intends it to mean. For those who intend no Christian religious observance, it is not a Christian holiday. And those people are extremely numerous. To secular celebrants of Christmas, the only thing Christmas has to do with Christianity is five letters of the alphabet.

ROFL

[Nightwish]

ROFL
You really don't get it, do you? Oh well, if you would like to build a time machine and go back to the time when Christ was a firm presence in every American household at Christmas, I'm sure that Pat Robertson and Bill O'Reilly will be happy to help you with the funding, as I'm sure they'd like to be there to. But the world has changed and seems to have passed you by. You can either get on board, live in denial (which appears to be your choice) or mope. Up to you.

[stevieray]

You really don't get it, do you? Oh well, if you would like to build a time machine and go back to the time when Christ was a firm presence in every American household at Christmas, I'm sure that Pat Robertson and Bill O'Reilly will be happy to help you with the funding, as I'm sure they'd like to be there to. But the world has changed and seems to have passed you by. You can either get on board, live in denial (which appears to be your choice) or mope. Up to you.

Get on board with what? a secular progressive society..no thanks.

There is nothing to get, Nightwish, other than your bigotry.

Christmas is a Christian Holiday.

Secular Christmas..what an oxymoron.

[listopencil]

Merry Winter Solstice.

[Nightwish]

Get on board with what? a secular progressive society..no thanks.Life is going to be hard for you, then. Enjoy.There is nothing to get, Nightwish, other than your bigotry.Bigotry, eh? Where do you see me being intolerant of any religion, including yours. Simply pointing out that the institution of Christmas has moved way beyond its religious origins is hardly bigotry. But your kind is wont to scream "bigotry" as often as you can, so I'm sure I'm wasting my time.Christmas is a Christian Holiday.For you.Secular Christmas..what an oxymoron.It is an oxymoron, at least in name, but it's true nonetheless. Not everyone who celebrates Christmas celebrates Christ. You can live with it or not.

[listopencil]

I celebrate Christmas. It's fun. The kids love it.

I'm Agnostic, by the way.

[noa]

There is nothing to get, Nightwish, other than your bigotry.

Christmas is a Christian Holiday.


The only bigotry going on here is form your camp IMO. Believe it or not, there are non-Christian children who could use a toy during the holiday season. And guess what? They might not want a doll of Jesus!
What you are saying is that because Christmas time can only be celebrated by Christians, the only kids who will receive these toys should be Christian (I think a doll of Jesus is rather biased in that regard). Well, this charity happens to assume that there will be some non-Christian children who could use some gifts, too, and you're complaining that they want to accommodate these kids.
Of all the things to whine about in this country, it astonishes me that people want to complain about a war on Christmas.
F*ck inclusivenesses! F*ck needy non-Christian children! I want to donate Jesus dolls because I've claimed a monopoly on this time of the year!

[Logical]

ROFLDoes it make you feel better to laugh at facts that make you uncomfortable?

I am sure that a majority of people who celebrate Christmas around the world do so because of Christianity, however to ignore that their are vast populations celebrating Christmas on a purely secular basis is to ignore countries in Asia and probably close to 40% of the population in the US.

[listopencil]

however to ignore that their are vast populations celebrating Christmas on a purely secular basis is to ignore countries in Asia and probably close to 40% of the population in the US.



Like me...

[stevieray]

What you are saying is that because Christmas time can only be celebrated by Christians.

Never said that. Again the only one exclaiming exclusiveness is you.

Christmas will always be Christian Holiday. You claimed Christians lost their claim to it. It's not possible. Christmas will always be a Christian Holiday, regardless of how others might 'celebrate" the day.

"keep up"

[stevieray]

Does it make you feel better to laugh at facts that make you uncomfortable?

I am sure that a majority of people who celebrate Christmas around the world do so because of Christianity, however to ignore that their are vast populations celebrating Christmas on a purely secular basis is to ignore countries in Asia and probably close to 40% of the population in the US.

Does it make you feel better to claim what Christmas isn't?

[Logical]

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/15753237/


LOS ANGELES - The Marine Reserves’ Toys for Tots program has decided to accept a donation of Bible-quoting Jesus dolls, reversing course after saying earlier this week that it couldn’t take them.

“The talking Jesus doll issue has been resolved,” the organization announced on its Web site Wednesday. “Toys for Tots has found appropriate places for these items. We have notified the donor of our willingness to handle this transaction.”

The short note on the Web site did not explain what it would do with the dolls.


Earlier this week, the program declined a suburban Los Angeles company’s offer to donate 4,000 of the foot-tall talking dolls. The battery-powered Jesus is one of several Bible-based dolls manufactured by one2believe, a division of the Valencia-based Beverly Hills Teddy Bear Co.

In explaining the initial decision, Bill Grein, vice president of Marine Toys for Tots Foundation, in Quantico, Va., had said the program didn’t want to take the risk of offending a Jewish or Muslim family if they received a Jesus doll.

Toys for Tots distributed 18 million stuffed animals, games, toy trucks and other gifts to children based on financial need in 2005.
© 2006 The Associated Press. All rights reserved. This material may not be published, broadcast, rewritten or redistributed

I am glad this was worked out, I am sure the packages could be marked Christian families only and the local ministers coud sort it out. Win -win as long as non believers don't get the toys.

[Logical]

Does it make you feel better to claim what Christmas isn't?

Christmas is many things to many people. I agreed it's foundation was in Christianity but it has moved long past that.

[noa]

Never said that. Again the only one exclaiming exclusiveness is you.

Christmas will always be Christian Holiday. You claimed christians lost their claim to it.

"keep up"

Actually, for the sake of this thread you are claiming exclusiveness. Christian toys should be donated on this holiday because its a Christian holiday.
Saying Christmas will always be a Christian Holiday is no revelation, but you are trying to lay claim to something bigger than one day. Its not as if we think the day where Christians go to church and celebrate Jesus' birth belongs to anyone other than Christians. The point is that, in this country, Christmas is bigger than that Christian holiday. When this charity has a holiday season drive, its not a Christmas drive only for Christians in honor of Jesus. Its a charity drive in honor of the holiday season that many people, Christian and non-Christian, enjoy. Obviously, the disagreement is over 'Christmas the Christian holiday' and the 'Christmas season/holiday season.'
The point, for the sake of this thread, is do you want to be offended by trying to include more people in a charity drive by requesting gift neutrality, or do you want to monopolize this time of the year as 'Christmas the Christian holiday that only Christians celebrate?' I don't find anything offensive about considering the Christmas season something bigger than a Christian holiday.

[listopencil]

Christmas is many things to many people. I agreed it's foundation was in Christianity but it has moved long past that.


I think I see your point, and I agree with it. "Christmas" has become a national holiday.

['Hamas' Jenkins]

Never said that. Again the only one exclaiming exclusiveness is you.

Christmas will always be Christian Holiday. You claimed Christians lost their claim to it. It's not possible. Christmas will always be a Christian Holiday, regardless of how others might 'celebrate" the day.

"keep up"

You are misreading his post. Christians lost exclusive claim to Christmas long ago. They can still celebrate it as the birth of their Messiah, but that is not the end all, be all of the cultural construction that we refer to as Christmas...

Christmas is not wholly associated with Jesus, and hasn't been for many years. Furthermore, to think that Christianity is the celebration of Christ's birth in all Christian households is pure folly, for a great deal of those households are just as much about the materialism and advertising as are the rest of us godless heathens.

[stevieray]

Actually, for the sake of this thread you are claiming exclusiveness. Christian toys should be donated on this holiday because its a Christian holiday.
Its not as if we think the day where Christians go to church and celebrate Jesus' birth belongs to anyone other than Christians. .

Never claimed any of that.

[listopencil]

By the way, I'll go ahead and mention that Christ probably wasn't born DEC 25th:


Claim: The day celebrated as Christmas (December 25) is the actual birthday of Jesus.

Status: Undetermined.

Origins: The biblical narrative of Jesus' birth gives no date for the event, though it more likely occurred in spring than in winter. Saint Luke tells us that shepherds were "abiding in the field, keeping watch over their flocks by night" — shepherds guarded their flocks day and night only at lambing time, in the spring; in winter, the animals were kept in corrals, unwatched.

http://www.snopes.com/holidays/christmas/jesus.asp

[stevieray]

You are misreading his post. Christians lost exclusive claim to Christmas long ago. They can still celebrate it as the birth of their Messiah, but that is not the end all, be all of the cultural construction that we refer to as Christmas...

Christmas is not wholly associated with Jesus, and hasn't been for many years. Furthermore, to think that Christianity is the celebration of Christ's birth in all Christian households is pure folly, for a great deal of those households are just as much about the materialism and advertising as are the rest of us godless heathens.


Christmas is the celebration of Christ's birth.

Christianity is based on the life and teachings of Jesus.

People can celebrate however they want, that doesn't change the foundation.

[noa]

Never claimed any of that.


Then I don't understand what your point is. You called someone a bigot for trying to assert that people who are not Christian also celebrate Christmas. You then asked whether people thought Christmas is a Christian holiday.
I gathered that you are offended by people trying to say that Christmas is more than a Christian holiday, or at the very least, you disagree with them. If that's the case, then you believe that Christmas is only celebrated by Christians (what else is the point of your question?).
This thread is about whether religion-neutral toys during the Christmas season is a fair request. If you think Christmas is only for Christians and the toys should reflect that, then its a bit exclusive.
Maybe I'm putting words in your mouth, but I based my thoughts on the fact that you called people who asserted that Christmas is something bigger 'bigots' and that you wanted to clarify that Christmas is only for Christians.

[stevieray]

Then I don't understand what your point is. You called someone a bigot for trying to assert that people who are not Christian also celebrate Christmas.

No, I called someone a bigot for suggesting I could get funding for a time machine to go on a Christ crusade.

[noa]

No, I called someone a bigot for suggesting I could get funding for a time machine to go on a Christ crusade.

But that's not bigotry. Its a crass way of saying that America is no longer a country where the only people who celebrate the Christmas season are Christians. Hence the fact that a charity might want to give gifts to Christian and non-Christian kids alike. What Nightwish said might have rattled you in its crassness, but its not anti-Christian bigotry by any means. He never told you to go on a crusade. He told you that if you wanted to live in a time where Christians had a sole monopoly on Christmas, you would have to go back in time.

['Hamas' Jenkins]

Christmas is the celebration of Christ's birth.

Christianity is based on the life and teachings of Jesus.

People can celebrate however they want, that doesn't change the foundation.

Close his eyes, he's got tuuuunnnnel vision :rockon:

[Nightwish]

Christmas is the celebration of Christ's birth.
Christmas is the celebration of Christ's birth ... for Christians. Celebration is a personal thing, it's not static and unchangeable. People celebrate what they celebrate. When they celebrate some particular observance that is special to them on a particular day, they are not automatically signing on to celebrate or observe somebody else's. I celebrate Christmas every year. I do not celebrate the birth of Christ. The birth of Christ means very little to me, yet I celebrate Christmas. In my celebration, Christ doesn't enter into it. I'm not alone in that regard.

Christianity is based on the life and teachings of Jesus.
Christianity is not Christmas.

People can celebrate however they want, that doesn't change the foundation.
The foundation is irrelevant, except for those who still hold to it. For those of us who don't, the foundation is unimportant.

[SLAG]

celebrating Christmas is very confusing... (witch Firefox wants me to capitalize.. btw..)

the word Christmas comes from the term "Christ's Mass"... now we have been having "Christ's Mass" on Dec. 25 for AGES.. now the reasoning behind this is that the pagans had a HUGE celebration on this day and was gaining popularity. My home boys in Rome said hey.. lets steal their holiday and convert more people to Christianity... and there you have it..

we celebrate Christmas now...like we have for a very long time... now everyone has a stick shoved up their ass so far i would not be surprised to see lawsuits based on acts/objects of Christianity during the holiday season and pretty soon "X-mas" is really what we have.

Now i bet Jesus would not want us to really fight about why we are loving and showing good will... he just might want us to just give a smile and wish your fellow man good will and all that good stuff...if you are a believer don't stop believing and if your not well.. don't sue me for having a nativity scene in my yard.

[Nightwish]

i would not be surprised to see lawsuits based on acts/objects of Christianity during the holiday season and pretty soon "X-mas" is really what we have.

It's already been happening, from both sides. You have secularists who have lobbied to have nativities removed from public squares, and you have Christians who have lobbied to force retailers to say, "Merry Christmas" instead of "Happy Holidays."

[SLAG]

It's already been happening, from both sides. You have secularists who have lobbied to have nativities removed from public squares, and you have Christians who have lobbied to force retailers to say, "Merry Christmas" instead of "Happy Holidays."


once again those folks are not really celebrating the true SPIRIT of the season in general..

let who ever say whatever

damn..

that stick is up there far

[KCWolfman]

ROFL

What about the other gift-giving holidays that fall on the same part of the year, the older holiday the christians "appropriated" (stole is such a harsh word)- Yule, or Hanukkah?

If Toys-For-Tots was only for "christian" kids, you would have a point. As it's not, you don't have one at all.


Obviously you don't have any knowledge on the Toys for Tots campaign. Here is their mission statement

"The mission of the U.S. Marine Corps Reserve Toys for Tots Program is to collect new, unwrapped toys during October, November and December each year, and distribute those toys as Christmas gifts to needy children in the community in which the campaign is conducted."

You will note that Hannukah is not mentioned in the mission.'

Here is their written goal for the last 20 years

" The objectives of Toys for Tots are to help needy children throughout the United States experience the joy of Christmas; to play an active role in the development of one of our nation's most valuable natural resources - our children; to unite all members of local communities in a common cause for three months each year during the annual toy collection and distribution campaign; and to contribute to better communities in the future."

Now, let's repeat a small portion of that goal..... Experience the joy of CHRISTmas. Seems to me that the goal is to experience CHRISTmas, not Hannukah - Obviously, I do have a point and obviously you are mistaken.


Toys for Tots Mission and Goal (http://www.toysfortots.org/about_toys_for_tots/toys_for_tots_program/default.asp)

[KCWolfman]

If Christmas were a strictly Christian holiday, which it hasn't been in decades, you would have a point. There are thousands of Muslims who celebrate the secular version of Christmas, complete with the tradition of gift-giving, of which T4T is a part. Christians lost their claim on Christmas decades ago. Keep up.
Ahh, again, you can read the mission and goal as well.

When I see a push to change Hannukah to a "non-secular" holiday, your statement will have validity. Until then, it is nonsense.

[KCWolfman]

The only bigotry going on here is form your camp IMO. Believe it or not, there are non-Christian children who could use a toy during the holiday season. And guess what? They might not want a doll of Jesus!
What you are saying is that because Christmas time can only be celebrated by Christians, the only kids who will receive these toys should be Christian (I think a doll of Jesus is rather biased in that regard). Well, this charity happens to assume that there will be some non-Christian children who could use some gifts, too, and you're complaining that they want to accommodate these kids.
Of all the things to whine about in this country, it astonishes me that people want to complain about a war on Christmas.
F*ck inclusivenesses! F*ck needy non-Christian children! I want to donate Jesus dolls because I've claimed a monopoly on this time of the year!
Great - they want a toy at CHRISTmas from a group that states they are distributing toys to children to experience CHRISTmas.

Make a push to have Ramadan non-secular, then you can screw with the Christian holiday.

I am amazed at the bigotry of the left extremists who DEMAND that the Christians accomodate all others at any time they blink.

[KCWolfman]

It's already been happening, from both sides. You have secularists who have lobbied to have nativities removed from public squares, and you have Christians who have lobbied to force retailers to say, "Merry Christmas" instead of "Happy Holidays."
Force retailers? You need to change your verbage or read up on current events.

Walmart noted a horrid holiday season last year after avoiding the word "Christmas" in all their advertisting. They are going full guns this year. That doesn't look like "force" to me at all - instead it is accomodating a market that is 70% Christian.

[stevieray]

The birth of Christ means very little to me, yet I celebrate Christmas. In my celebration, Christ doesn't enter into it. I'm not alone in that regard

Christ does enter into it. and if you are celebrating Christmas, you are observing the birth of Christ, regardless if you acknowledge it as so.


Just because I go celebrate cinco de mayo at on the border, doesn't mean that Mexico lost it's claim to the holiday.

[Baby Lee]

Does this mean we don't have to feel guilty anymore about taking Martin Luther King Jrs. birthday off and just puttering around the house?

:p

[Nightwish]

once again those folks are not really celebrating the true SPIRIT of the season in general..
The true spirit of "the season," or the true spirit of Christmas? There's a big difference. "The season" is a phrased used in reference to a combination of holidays which all fall at roughly the same time, of which Christmas is but one. "The season" is Christmas, New Years, Hannukah, Yule (or Winter Solstice), and more recently Kwanza. If I put up a Christmas tree, or toss up a wreath and some boughs of holly, or burn a Yule log, I am celebrating the true spirit of "the Season," specifically the Yule aspect, as handed down by both the Vikings (tree, though Germanic Christians later coopted this symbol and added lights and decorations, and brought it to America) and the Druids (Yule log, wreaths, holly, mistletoe). If I light a menorah, I am celebrating the true spirit of the season, the Jewish aspect. If I hang mistletoe from the ceiling and countdown the new year on December 31st, I am celebrating the true spirit of the season.

[Nightwish]

When I see a push to change Hannukah to a "non-secular" holiday, your statement will have validity. Until then, it is nonsense.
Whether there is ever a push to make Hannukah a non-secular holiday or not is irrelevant. We're not talking about Hannukah, we're talking about Christmas. What has happened over the past decade with the secularization and commercialization of Christmas has nothing to do with Hannukah, and you're not going to escape the reality of it by trying to hang the responsibility on another holiday.

[Nightwish]

Force retailers? You need to change your verbage or read up on current events.
I think you need to dig out your old newspapers and reread them. And speaking of verbage, you need to check that more closely, too. I didn't say they sued in court, nor did I say that their lobbying succeeded (one can argue that it did, though the retailers claim that their decision to revert to "Merry Christmas" this year was not related to last year's incidents). I said that Christians "lobbied" to force retailers to say "Merry Christmas" rather than "Happy Holidays." Nobody can say it didn't happen, because it was all over every major media news outlet in the country.

Walmart noted a horrid holiday season last year after avoiding the word "Christmas" in all their advertisting.
It wasn't Wal-Mart that was the target of those lobbying efforts, pickets, boycotts, and so on. It was Target.

instead it is accomodating a market that is 70% Christian.
90% of whom couldn't care less if they are greeted with "Merry Christmas" or "Happy Holidays."

[Nightwish]

Christ does enter into it. and if you are celebrating Christmas, you are observing the birth of Christ, regardless if you acknowledge it as so.
Christ doesn't enter into it, not in my household, and not in the households of millions of non-Christians. You can continue to petulantly demand that Christ be part of our celebration, but you're not going to get your way, so stop wasting your time. What I am observing during the holiday season is determined by my wishes, my intentions and my traditions, not somebody else's. If you wish to include Christ in your observances, that's great. But stop crying because others don't.

Just because I go celebrate cinco de mayo at on the border, doesn't mean that Mexico lost it's claim to the holiday.
More apples and oranges. Cinco de Mayo hasn't changed substantially over the years; Christmas has. Certainly, there are people who use Cinco de Mayo as an excuse to get drunk and party, but they're not expressly celebrating or venerating something other than Mexico's independence from France. With Christmas, however, there are observances and venerations of things other than Christ. The various traditions of Christmas come from a variety of backgrounds, including a number of pagan traditions, and some celebrants are not only aware of those non-Christian origins, but hold them dear. As I correctly stated, to many people, the only thing Christ has to do with their holiday is five letters of the alphabet.

[noa]

Great - they want a toy at CHRISTmas from a group that states they are distributing toys to children to experience CHRISTmas.

Make a push to have Ramadan non-secular, then you can screw with the Christian holiday.

I am amazed at the bigotry of the left extremists who DEMAND that the Christians accomodate all others at any time they blink.


I am hoping that kids who aren't Christian have the same chance to get toys from this charity and I'm the bigot...riiiiiiiiight.
Me: 'Can you find it in your heart to accommodate non-Christians in this time of giving?'
You: 'No you leftist extremist bigot. The only kids who should receive these toys are Christians because the statement of purpose doesn't mention Hannukah or any other non-Christian celebrations!'

Again, who's being the bigot here? We're not asking that you accommodate non-Christians by giving up your beliefs or your right to celebrate. We're asking that you find the kindness in your heart to give toys to as many kids as possible, not just Christian children. Its not that tall of an order.

[Nightwish]

I am amazed at the bigotry of the left extremists who DEMAND that the Christians accomodate all others at any time they blink.
I realize that "bigot" and "bigotry" are fun words to use in the hope of putting an opponent on the defensive. However, they lose their power when they are incorrectly applied. Bigotry is not synonymous with criticism, nor with observing and pointing out that a formerly entirely religious thing has become secularized. The call for inclusiveness is not bigotry, as it does not incorporate an intolerance for any particular practice. Now, lobbying to force the removal of nativity scenes from a town square, while there may be legally justifiable reasons, may be able to be called bigotry. Asking that Jewish, secular and neopagan symbols be placed beside it cannot be called bigotry (you might be able to get away with calling it excessive or petty, but not bigotry).

Likewise, your demand that only Christian sentiments be permitted under the umbrella of "Christmas" is also not bigotry, though it is petty and rediculous.

[KCChiefsfan88]

I think an appropriate gift for all Bible thumpers would be a Jesus blow-up doll.

[luv]

As I correctly stated, to many people, the only thing Christ has to do with their holiday is five letters of the alphabet.
Actually, six letters.

[Nightwish]

Actually, six letters.
:p My math sucks!

[Saulbadguy]

Yeah, they wouldn't want to offend some poor Jewish child. snicker.

[memyselfI]

I think an appropriate gift for all Bible thumpers would be a Jesus blow-up doll.


You mean the popular large yard type, right? ROFL

[patteeu]

:p My math sucks!

Is counting called math these days? :p

[KCWolfman]

Whether there is ever a push to make Hannukah a non-secular holiday or not is irrelevant. We're not talking about Hannukah, we're talking about Christmas. What has happened over the past decade with the secularization and commercialization of Christmas has nothing to do with Hannukah, and you're not going to escape the reality of it by trying to hang the responsibility on another holiday.
Next you will be asking to change the definition of "is", Mr Clinton.

[KCWolfman]

I am hoping that kids who aren't Christian have the same chance to get toys from this charity and I'm the bigot...riiiiiiiiight.
Me: 'Can you find it in your heart to accommodate non-Christians in this time of giving?'
You: 'No you leftist extremist bigot. The only kids who should receive these toys are Christians because the statement of purpose doesn't mention Hannukah or any other non-Christian celebrations!'

Again, who's being the bigot here? We're not asking that you accommodate non-Christians by giving up your beliefs or your right to celebrate. We're asking that you find the kindness in your heart to give toys to as many kids as possible, not just Christian children. Its not that tall of an order.
Umm yeah, I would say you are taking a bigoted stance.

"listen, we want free gifts too. But make sure those gifts are in line with our religious choices".

Nice. You should have welfare recipients telling us what model cars they would like for free next.

[KCWolfman]

Is counting called math these days? :p
Depends on the college you go to.

[noa]

Umm yeah, I would say you are taking a bigoted stance.

"listen, we want free gifts too. But make sure those gifts are in line with our religious choices".

Nice. You should have welfare recipients telling us what model cars they would like for free next.


First off, we're talking about needy children here. You are quite the cynic if you can demonize them.
Second, they are not asking that the gifts are in line with their religious choice. They are asking that gifts are religion-neutral so they can be given to Christians and non-Christians alike.
What you are advocating would require discriminating against non-Christian children who could use a toy during the holiday season.
When your church volunteers at a soup kitchen, do they require that everyone getting food is Christian? When your church builds a house with Habitat for Humanity, do they require that only a Christian family can live there? I am hoping that the answers are no, so when this charity wants to donate toys, why should they require that only Christians can receive the toys?

The fact that you can call someone who wants all children to be able to receive toys from this charity, regardless of religion, a bigot says a lot about your understanding of the word.

[KCWolfman]

Umm yeah, I would say you are taking a bigoted stance.

"listen, we want free gifts too. But make sure those gifts are in line with our religious choices".

Nice. You should have welfare recipients telling us what model cars they would like for free next.
And where the heck did any of you make the assumption that the specific religious gifts were given to non-Christians?

Your hate fest is littered with fallen logic.

[KCWolfman]

First off, we're talking about needy children here. You are quite the cynic if you can demonize them.
Second, they are not asking that the gifts are in line with their religious choice. They are asking that gifts are religion-neutral so they can be given to Christians and non-Christians alike.
What you are advocating would require discriminating against non-Christian children who could use a toy during the holiday season.
When your church volunteers at a soup kitchen, do they require that everyone getting food is Christian? When your church builds a house with Habitat for Humanity, do they require that only a Christian family can live there? I am hoping that the answers are no, so when this charity wants to donate toys, why should they require that only Christians can receive the toys?

The fact that you can call someone who wants all children to be able to receive toys from this charity, regardless of religion, a bigot says a lot about your understanding of the word.
And once more, where did you derive that religious gifts were being given to non-Christians?

[noa]

And where the heck did any of you make the assumption that the specific religious gifts were given to non-Christians?

Your hate fest is littered with fallen logic.


Well, the charity found a way to distribute the Jesus dolls, but I'm assuming that their initial hesitation was that they didn't want to have to take the time to give certain toys to Christian kids and certain toys to non-Christian kids.
Otherwise, they would have to ask whether or not a child is a Christian before giving away their Jesus dolls, and I'm guessing that the charity wasn't eager to do that.

[noa]

Your hate fest is littered with fallen logic.

What have I said that is hateful?

[KCWolfman]

Well, the charity found a way to distribute the Jesus dolls, but I'm assuming that their initial hesitation was that they didn't want to have to take the time to give certain toys to Christian kids and certain toys to non-Christian kids.
Otherwise, they would have to ask whether or not a child is a Christian before giving away their Jesus dolls, and I'm guessing that the charity wasn't eager to do that.
You mean they would have to ask questions before distributing gifts!!! Say it ain't so!!!!


You mean questions like:

1. How many children do you have
2. What are their ages
3. Boys or Girls
4. What size clothes
5. What are their hobbies
6. Are you affiliated with any church
7. Which one


They already ask those questions and much more. The extreme leftists crack me up sometimes. I can see it now "No, Abdullah Ibrahim. You must take this Jesus doll only and split it between your seven children. We don't give coats or gloves to Muslims. And if we find out that they have not played with this doll, we will punish you further".

As I said, the extreme leftists logic on this thread is absolutely atrocious and laughable.

[noa]

They already ask those questions and much more. The extreme leftists crack me up sometimes. I can see it now "No, Abdullah Ibrahim. You must take this Jesus doll only and split it between your seven children. We don't give coats or gloves to Muslims. And if we find out that they have not played with this doll, we will punish you further".

As I said, the extreme leftists logic on this thread is absolutely atrocious and laughable.

All I have argued for is including as many children as possible in this charity. If that makes me hateful and an 'extreme leftist,' then so be it.
The faulty logic in this thread is on the part of people who are assuming that moves to include as many kids as possible somehow degrades on Christians and is part of the War on Christmas.
I'm guessing that the charity thought it was easier for them to run their operation without accepting Jesus dolls, so they did that. Eventually, they figured out what to do with the dolls, but the fact that they denied them in the first place has nothing to do with a War on Christmas or any type of persecution against Christians.
By the way, after looking around their website, I see no indication that they donate clothing, so your references to clothes donations above may be misguided. I believe they deal solely with toys.

[KCWolfman]

All I have argued for is including as many children as possible in this charity. If that makes me hateful and an 'extreme leftist,' then so be it.
The faulty logic in this thread is on the part of people who are assuming that moves to include as many kids as possible somehow degrades on Christians and is part of the War on Christmas.
I'm guessing that the charity thought it was easier for them to run their operation without accepting Jesus dolls, so they did that. Eventually, they figured out what to do with the dolls, but the fact that they denied them in the first place has nothing to do with a War on Christmas or any type of persecution against Christians.
You again ignore the obvious. Nowhere in any article I have read has it stated the dolls would have been distributed to non-Christians. You, and your extremist brethen on this thread, just assumed they would be foisted on anyone by evil Right Wing Religious Extremists.

TfT has distributed millions of dollars in goods and toys for decades. They distribute to any who ask for the help. They do not give size 3month jumpers to teenage boys. They do not give brittle to peanut allergic girls. There is an extensive questionnaire to complete including religious choices.

Now if any of you can find a single scrap of data that shows these dolls were planned to be distributed to aethiests, muslims, or jews, step up and show me the proof.

Otherwise, it is merely leftist ranting with no real point.

[noa]

First of all, you have no right to your "argument". Toys for Tots is a charity, not a government group or stock driven organization. They have the right to distribute what they want and to whom they want. It is that simple.


So why did people complain when they didn't want the Jesus dolls?

[KCWolfman]

So why did people complain when they didn't want the Jesus dolls?
More importantly, why did they accept the dolls?

The complaint was because the act of charity was spat upon merely to keep whiners like yourself from throwing irrational temper tantrums over imagined atrocities.

[noa]

Now if any of you can find a single scrap of data that shows these dolls were planned to be distributed to aethiests, muslims, or jews, step up and show me the proof.

The point isn't that they were going to distribute Jesus dolls to non-Christians. The point is that they wanted to avoid that situation. Thus, they didn't want the Jesus dolls.
By the way, you can call me an extremist all you want. It just dilutes the meaning of the word. I am by no means an extremist. I support free religious expression by all people and I would never ask to hinder the celebration of Christmas. Nothing I have said in this thread is indicative of any sort of extremism. Again, I only advocate inclusion. If a charity makes a request because they want to be more inclusive, then I don't see any reason to complain.

[noa]

More importantly, why did they accept the dolls?

The complaint was because the act of charity was spat upon merely to keep whiners like yourself from throwing irrational temper tantrums over imagined atrocities.

They accepted the dolls when they found a way to distribute them. I don't think they initially rejected the Jesus dolls to cow-tow to 'extreme leftists.' It was a practical matter.
You seem to think that the only way to carry out this debate is through ad hominem attacks by calling me hateful, a bigot, an extreme leftist, and a person who throws irrational temper tantrums. That says a lot about the strength of your position.

[KCWolfman]

The point isn't that they were going to distribute Jesus dolls to non-Christians. The point is that they wanted to avoid that situation. Thus, they didn't want the Jesus dolls.
By the way, you can call me an extremist all you want. It just dilutes the meaning of the word. I am by no means an extremist. I support free religious expression by all people and I would never ask to hinder the celebration of Christmas. Nothing I have said in this thread is indicative of any sort of extremism. Again, I only advocate inclusion. If a charity makes a request because they want to be more inclusive, then I don't see any reason to complain.

Again, everyone who receives any gift (and not only are clothes included, but so are vehicles with the TfT organization) is interviewed thoroughly by a local distributor.

I honestly don't see your side of the argument unless rash assumptions are being made.

[noa]

Again, everyone who receives any gift (and not only are clothes included, but so are vehicles with the TfT organization) is interviewed thoroughly by a local distributor.

I honestly don't see your side of the argument unless rash assumptions are being made.


Fair enough. We could have ended this argument much earlier if you had said your point this way instead of labeling me all sorts of things and insulting me so much. We disagree as to why the charity didn't want the Jesus dolls initially. Let's leave it at that.

[KCWolfman]

Fair enough. We could have ended this argument much earlier if you had said your point this way instead of labeling me all sorts of things and insulting me so much. We disagree as to why the charity didn't want the Jesus dolls initially. Let's leave it at that.
Fair enough right back.

After reading back, I see I unfairly included you in with some of the idiots trying desperately to elicit responses with antagonistic religious statements. They react like Pavlov's dogs and I guess I did the same with you. My apologies

[patteeu]

And once more, where did you derive that religious gifts were being given to non-Christians?

For goodness' sake, what difference would it make if they were? Whose bright idea was it to repeal the beggars can't be choosers standard? If you want religion-specific toys for your kids, don't be a beggar. If someone gives you a gift that isn't necessarily at the top of your wish list, smile and say thank you.

P.S. I realize we are on the same side on this KCWolfman, so this isn't directed at you.

[patteeu]

All I have argued for is including as many children as possible in this charity.

If the directors of the charity didn't want to accept certain donations, that's up to them and I don't have a problem with it. But to suggest that rejecting certain donations because of their religious nature somehow includes "as many children as possible" is counter-intuitive. How does reducing your supply of toys increase the number of kids you can serve?

[skye22f]

Your hate fest is littered with fallen logic.

I <3 Christian Persecution Complexes.

They are so funny.

I don't hate you I just think you're dumb/ignorant.

[Taco John]

I agreed it's foundation was in Christianity but it has moved long past that.



Actually, that's not even true. The roots of Christmas are from the pagan holiday "Yule," which was one of the pagan's most sacred days. It was originally a holiday for Sun worship during the winter solstice (The word "Yule" referring to the sun). The Pagan Yule Log is where we get the Christmas Tree (surely every Christian recognizes that these trees come from pagan tradition). On December 24th (ie. Christmas Eve) the pagans would burn the largest, most massive tree that could be found to commemorate the birth of Saturn, the Sun God. It was a big production, that would require the unified efforts of several teams of men and oxen. Very festive, with everybody working together toward a common, peacful goal.

It's from this celebration that we get things like Christmas cookies. They'd make little men out of ginger spiced dough representing their loved ones, making eyes and noses and other features using raisins. Another thing they would do is hang a sprig of Mistletoe in the doorway in an attempt to increase fertility.

This is where wreaths come from as well. Pagan Priests would give these wreaths with ornate bows on them as gifts, and people would hang them on their doors, again in hopes of increasing fertility.

The same with the Christmas tree. Sprigs of the Yule log were brought indoors, and stood up like an erect penis (sorry to say) in an attempt to portray fertility. They would then hang holly berries from it, especially white ones, which were interpreted to increse fertility in the semen. The symbology of Christmas is very sexual. The balls on the tree? You starting to see where they come from?

The truth is, the customs of Christmas pre-date the birth of Jesus Christ. It doesn't take much research to discover this.

The Catholics (especially Roman Emporer Constantine) appended these customs in order to spread the religion, because they figured that they couldn't get the people to stop celebrating these customs, so "if you can't beat them, join them." Later, when Martin Luther started the reformation, those that followed him kept their pagan Christmas traditions without much thought towards their history.

So to be clear, the foundations of Christmas are not in Christianity at all, but rather in paganism. Christianity hijacked the holiday in order to spread the religion. Christ was actually born in September (or June depending on which scholars you ask).

In fact there are some Christian sects that refuse to celebrate Christmas altogether citing Jeremiah 10:2-4, "Thus saith the Lord, learn not the way of the heathen; and be not dismayed at the signs of heaven. For the heathen are dismayed at them. For the customs of the people are vain. For one cutteth a tree out of the forest. The work of the hands of the workman with the axe. They deck it with silver and with gold. They fasten it with nails and with hammers that it move not."

Regardless, as a believer in Christ, I still celebrate Christmas for the personal meaning it has to me, and don't begrudge how anyone else celebrates the holiday.

[HolmeZz]

I celebrate Christmas. It's fun. The kids love it.

I'm Agnostic, by the way.

Damn skippy. And I'm actually glad my parents never pushed the religious side and made it just a celebration of the season. It makes the time so much more enjoyable.

Plus you don't have to get upset when the zit-faced kid at Wal-Mart wishes you 'Happy Holidays'.

[Sully]

My birthday falls on the same day as Dolly Parton's.
I just wonder if I am celebrating her birthday when I go out to dinner, whether I acknowledge it or not?

[DanT]

Could you imagine being a kid that received a single toy for Christmas and it was a doll of some European looking dope dressed up in Jesus robes and that mouthed, of all things, bible verses? Holy friggin' gunshot to the roof of the mouth. That was awfully nice of the men at the Toys for Tots foundation to come up with a face-saving way to turn down these lame-assed gifts and thus avert an epidemic of Kurt Cobain copycat shootings among impoverished American third graders.

[DanT]

That's a clearcut violation of the Greatest Commandment. Loving your neighbor as yourself doesn't include leaving your neighbors kids sobbing about what a horrendously bogus toy they got for Christmas.

[Nightwish]

Could you imagine being a kid that received a single toy for Christmas and it was a doll of some European looking dope dressed up in Jesus robes and that mouthed, of all things, bible verses? Holy friggin' gunshot to the roof of the mouth. That was awfully nice of the men at the Toys for Tots foundation to come up with a face-saving way to turn down these lame-assed gifts and thus avert an epidemic of Kurt Cobain copycat shootings among impoverished American third graders.
How about if that European looking dope dressed up in Jesus robes and spouting bible verses was a representation of the man who spawned a religion that has brought about the deaths of thousands of your forebears? I can imagine that to some Muslim families, receiving a Jesus doll might be about the same as Alamo families receiving a Santa Anna doll.

[Nightwish]

And where the heck did any of you make the assumption that the specific religious gifts were given to non-Christians?

Nobody has said that. It's a hypothetical. You really should start from the beginning of the thread.

[Nightwish]

Again, everyone who receives any gift (and not only are clothes included, but so are vehicles with the TfT organization) is interviewed thoroughly by a local distributor.
Depends on your definition of "thoroughly." In many cases, the extent of the interview is:

How many kids do you have?
What are their ages?
How many boys and how many girls?
Here ya go.

[Logical]

Obviously you don't have any knowledge on the Toys for Tots campaign. Here is their mission statement

"The mission of the U.S. Marine Corps Reserve Toys for Tots Program is to collect new, unwrapped toys during October, November and December each year, and distribute those toys as Christmas gifts to needy children in the community in which the campaign is conducted."

You will note that Hannukah is not mentioned in the mission.'

Here is their written goal for the last 20 years

" The objectives of Toys for Tots are to help needy children throughout the United States experience the joy of Christmas; to play an active role in the development of one of our nation's most valuable natural resources - our children; to unite all members of local communities in a common cause for three months each year during the annual toy collection and distribution campaign; and to contribute to better communities in the future."

Now, let's repeat a small portion of that goal..... Experience the joy of CHRISTmas. Seems to me that the goal is to experience CHRISTmas, not Hannukah - Obviously, I do have a point and obviously you are mistaken.


Toys for Tots Mission and Goal (http://www.toysfortots.org/about_toys_for_tots/toys_for_tots_program/default.asp)
You would have a point if it said Christmas for Christians. Christmas is a holiday national in nature that has no religious connotation when it comes to the national holiday. Millions of non-christians celebrate the holiday with gift gift giving and family gatherings with no religious connotation whatsoever. Just like to other millions Easter is about exchanging candy and a mythical rabbit hiding eggs, to them it has nothing to do with Christianity.

[Logical]

Force retailers? You need to change your verbage or read up on current events.

Walmart noted a horrid holiday season last year after avoiding the word "Christmas" in all their advertisting. They are going full guns this year. That doesn't look like "force" to me at all - instead it is accomodating a market that is 70% Christian.

Notice that even if you are correct it is a holiday for 30% non-Christians which would account for millions of people.

[Logical]

Well, the charity found a way to distribute the Jesus dolls, but I'm assuming that their initial hesitation was that they didn't want to have to take the time to give certain toys to Christian kids and certain toys to non-Christian kids.
Otherwise, they would have to ask whether or not a child is a Christian before giving away their Jesus dolls, and I'm guessing that the charity wasn't eager to do that.Seriously this was a case about a controversy that did not have to occur. TFT simply could have contacted military ministers and had them distribute the potentially offensive toys to children of known Christian values so as to be able to accept the toys and not stir the pot. No need to give away the offensive toys to random victims, but give them to the masses who would not be offended.

Though I am thinking little Billy might be mighty dissappointed in a bible verse spewing doll even if his parents are christian.ROFL

[KCWolfman]

That's a clearcut violation of the Greatest Commandment. Loving your neighbor as yourself doesn't include leaving your neighbors kids sobbing about what a horrendously bogus toy they got for Christmas.
Yeah, because not getting anything would have been so much better.

[KCWolfman]

Nobody has said that. It's a hypothetical. You really should start from the beginning of the thread.
Ahh, so you have made hypothetical assumptions with no basis in facts and during the course, attacked people for your silly assumptions.

I understand now.

Thanks

[KCWolfman]

You would have a point if it said Christmas for Christians. Christmas is a holiday national in nature that has no religious connotation when it comes to the national holiday. Millions of non-christians celebrate the holiday with gift gift giving and family gatherings with no religious connotation whatsoever. Just like to other millions Easter is about exchanging candy and a mythical rabbit hiding eggs, to them it has nothing to do with Christianity.
Ah, thanks, Mr Clinton and what is your definition of the word "is"?

[Nightwish]

Ahh, so you have made hypothetical assumptions with no basis in facts
No, I made a factual demographic observation, coupled with a hypothesis that the policy might make sense, to a degree, if that was the reasoning. Are you disputing the fact that many of the kids who receive gifts from T4T are from low-income African-American families, and that among that set Islam is a very popular religion?

and during the course, attacked people for your silly assumptions.
Attacked? Where did you see me attack anyone in this thread? Please paste the attacks. Now, I did see a number of attacks in this thread, mostly coming from you and Stevieray, when you loosely leveled the charge of "bigotry" (obviously not knowing what that word means) at just about anyone and everyone in this thread who dared to suggest that Christmas had become secularized.

[Adept Havelock]

All I can say is enjoy the Feast of Sol Invictus and Yule!

[stevieray]

No, I made a factual demographic observation, coupled with a hypothesis that the policy might make sense, to a degree, if that was the reasoning. Are you disputing the fact that many of the kids who receive gifts from T4T are from low-income African-American families, and that among that set Islam is a very popular religion?


Attacked? Where did you see me attack anyone in this thread? Please paste the attacks. Now, I did see a number of attacks in this thread, mostly coming from you and Stevieray, when you loosely leveled the charge of "bigotry" (obviously not knowing what that word means) at just about anyone and everyone in this thread who dared to suggest that Christmas had become secularized.


I only called you a bigot.

I still stand by that.

[Nightwish]

I only called you a bigot.

I still stand by that.I'm sure you will. And in calling me a bigot for daring to suggest that Christmas has become secularized and that you'd have to time travel to live in a time where the Christian observation of Christmas was the only observation of Christmas, you made it apparent that you have no idea what the word "bigot" means. People like you who so easily misapply words for the sake of a pity ploy make those words meaningless and destroy their effectiveness for people who might in the future use them properly. And I will stand by that.

Grab a dictionary. Look up "bigotry." Now look up "sardonic." Learn.

[DanT]

Yeah, because not getting anything would have been so much better.

Exactly!

Not getting anything > only getting a talking Jesus Doll

[stevieray]

I'm sure you will. And in calling me a bigot for daring to suggest that Christmas has become secularized and that you'd have to time travel to live in a time where the Christian observation of Christmas was the only observation of Christmas, you made it apparent that you have no idea what the word "bigot" means. People like you who so easily misapply words for the sake of a pity ploy make those words meaningless and destroy their effectiveness for people who might in the future use them properly. And I will stand by that.

Grab a dictionary. Look up "bigotry." Now look up "sardonic." Learn.

I called you a bigot because I think you are one.

not much more to it than that.

[BucEyedPea]

While this policy may seem a little petty, it does make sense to a degree when you pause to consider that many of the needy children that benefit from the T4T program are from low-income African-American families, among whom Islam is a very popular religious affiliation, so there's a very good chance that any given recipient of one of these toys is going to be a Muslim child. I'm sure their appreciation over getting a talking Jesus doll would be about the same as that of a Christian child receiving a talking Muhammed doll.
Yet, Muslim's respect and honor what they call "People of the Book"...many who they deem as prophets. Don't forget they're all children of Abraham.
Muslim's even rever Mary as the mother of Jesus.

Are most blacks Muslim? Or Christian? Or is it 50/50?

[BucEyedPea]

Does it make you feel better to laugh at facts that make you uncomfortable?

I am sure that a majority of people who celebrate Christmas around the world do so because of Christianity, however to ignore that their are vast populations celebrating Christmas on a purely secular basis is to ignore countries in Asia and probably close to 40% of the population in the US.

Do they really have Christmas at all in India, China, Thailand, SE Asia or even Japan?

They aren't known as Christian countries exactly. Christians may be even be a minority there? I think of Christmas as a western holiday. I believe it's about 84% of Americans call themselves Christian.

[Sully]

Let's buy and donate some of these...

http://www.judaism.com/display.asp?nt=ajao&etn=IIBHH

[Nightwish]

I called you a bigot because I think you are one.

not much more to it than that.
Again, look up the word "bigotry." Apparently, you don't understand its meaning. Here, I'll help.

from Dictionary.com

bigotry [big-uh-tree] –noun, plural -ries 1.stubborn and complete intolerance of any creed, belief, or opinion that differs from one's own.




sardonic [sahr-don-ik]
–adjective

characterized by bitter or scornful derision; mocking; cynical; sneering: a sardonic grin.

The comment that you would need to build a time machine if you wanted to live in a time where Jesus was a part of every American household's Christmas celebration (note there wasn't a mention of a crusade; I'm not sure what hole you pulled that one from), and that Pat Robertson and Bill O'Reilly would probably help you with the funding, was a sardonic, mocking, cynical comment. It did not, however, convey an intolerance of your belief system. It did not convey that the inclusion of Jesus in a Christmas celebration is unwelcome, unwarranted, or intolerable. It only derisively observed that Christmas has long been secularized and commercialized, and that if you believe it is still entirely a religious celebration only for Christians, you're living in Lala Land.

Now, if you believe that any of my posts have conveyed an intolerance of your religious beliefs, I challenge you once again to copy and paste them. Note that you've made similar charges in the past, based solely on the fact that I'm publically non-Christian, and I've challenged you on those occasions to put your money where your mouth is, and you've yet to step up even once to meet that challenge. Each time, it's come down to you saying, "Blah blah blah, you're a bigot 'cuz you don't believe like I do, blah blah blah." Will this time be different?

[Nightwish]

Do they really have Christmas at all in India, China, Thailand, SE Asia or even Japan?

They aren't known as Christian countries exactly. Christians may be even be a minority there? I think of Christmas as a western holiday. I believe it's about 84% of Americans call themselves Christian.
I believe that was exactly his point. People, even non-Christians celebrate Christmas in those countries, even though they aren't Christian nations. Not every nation calls it "Christmas," but the common elements - often a Santa-like figure, gift-exchange, decorations, etc. - make it recognizably a version of Christmas.

[BucEyedPea]

Do they really have Christmas at all in India, China, Thailand, SE Asia or even Japan?

They aren't known as Christian countries exactly. Christians may be even be a minority there? I think of Christmas as a western holiday. I believe it's about 84% of Americans call themselves Christian.
Think I'm gonna answer my own question, as I got curious here and didn't want to wait. This is what I found but it is wiki as a start; then asia source etc.

Chistmas WorldWide (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christmas_worldwide)
Asia Source (http://www.asiasource.org/events/asiaholidays.cfm#Cambodia)

India - is a state holiday in some Indian states and even Hindus participate; have Santa too
Philippines - Big Time offical holiday,longest Christmas season of all, since the country is the only predominantly Christian nation in the continent besides, Russia, East Timor, Georgia and Armenia.
Russia - In the old Soviet Union (atheistic) it was discouraged; today is a public holiday but is Orthodox and celebrated in January
Hong Kong/Maca, Myanmar, Singapore, South Korea, Papua New Guinea - is a public holiday
Brunei, Cook Islands, Fiji - is a public holiday
Taiwan - not officially celebrated
Japan, China, North Korea, Bhutan- not a national/legal holiday
Saudi Arabia, Turkey, Iran- not a public holiday nor around the Gulf either
Pakistan - Birthday of Quaid-i-Azam (Dec 25) Optional for Christians
Afghanistan, Kazakhstan, Kyrgyzstan, Uzbekistan, Turkmenistan, Bangladesh, Laos, Vietnam, Cambodia -not a holiday


BTW several Christian denominations, notably the Jehovah's Witnesses, Puritans, and some fundamentalists, view Christmas as a pagan holiday not sanctioned by the Bible.

[BucEyedPea]

I believe that was exactly his point. People, even non-Christians celebrate Christmas in those countries, even though they aren't Christian nations. Not every nation calls it "Christmas," but the common elements - often a Santa-like figure, gift-exchange, decorations, etc. - make it recognizably a version of Christmas.

I was answering my own question and posting it as you posted.
Apparently they don't. Many don't celebrate Christmas at all. In fact it's even banned in some Asian countries atheist and Muslim, others only have Buddhist holidays.

[Nightwish]

Apparently they don't.Some do, some don't. According to your list above, several Asian countries, not all of which are Christian countries, do celebrate it or allow it to be celebrated. I know for a fact that a number of Muslims in Turkey celebrate Christmas. They picked up the tradition from the Europeans, as Turkey is a bi-continental nation, with a sizeable Christian population.

[Nightwish]

BTW several Christian denominations, notably the Jehovah's Witnesses, Puritans, and some fundamentalists, view Christmas as a pagan holiday not sanctioned by the Bible.Very true. As a pagan, I get a kick out of that!

[BucEyedPea]

Some do, some don't. According to your list above, several Asian countries, not all of which are Christian countries, do celebrate it or allow it to be celebrated. I know for a fact that a number of Muslims in Turkey celebrate Christmas. They picked up the tradition from the Europeans, as Turkey is a bi-continental nation, with a sizeable Christian population.
Japan gets into the commercial part of it from what I read in that search, even if not a national holiday. Some minorities may celebrate privately...they do in China. But it's kinda hard to think of Buddhists who decry worldly things celebrating with any gift giving.

[BucEyedPea]

Very true. As a pagan, I get a kick out of that!
Christ birth isn't really as central to Christianity as much as his death and resurrection when you think about it.
The Greek Orthodox Christians celebrate Easter as the bigger and more major holiday and less into Christmas. They really don't put the same energy into it as they do Easter.

[Nightwish]

Christ birth isn't really as central to Christianity as much as his death and resurrection when you think about it.
The Greek Orthodox Christians celebrate Easter as the bigger and more major holiday and less into Christmas. They really don't put the same energy into it as they do Easter.

Meant to add this to my post above, but the thread has already moved on, so I'll add it here:

Quite a few Christmas (and Christian, for that matter) traditions can be traced back to pagan roots. Mistletoe was used by ancient Celts during their Winter Solstice celebrations, and was later used by the Druids as a fertility symbol. Wreaths and holly also derive from Druidic and Celtic practices. The Christmas tree comes from Teutonic paganism, originating as an oak tree (the Oak of Donar, aka "thunder tree") from which sacrificed animals offered up to Thor were hung during the winter celebration, then changed by St. Boniface from an oak to a fir, with the sacrificial hangings changed to handmade decorations, to make the custom more tame and acceptable to Christian converts. And of course, there is Santa Claus himself, which combines elements of the story of the Bishop of Myra (who may or may not have actually existed, as evidence is lacking) with several pagan deities, most notably Odin and Thor (from whom the tradition of giving gifts is derived, a tradition also reflected in the practices of the followers of the Zoroastrian god Mithra, followers which include the Three Wise Men; interestingly, in addition to having some ties to Thor, Mithra's story is nearly identical to that of Jesus, and some believe that the story of Jesus is a retelling of the story of Mithra - born of a virgin, self-sacrificed, company of 12 desciples, resurrection, etc.) I saw a report on a news program one time, tracing the origins of several Christmas traditions, and it suggested that even the name of the Bishop of Myra (St. Nicolaus) might have been borrowed from a Germanic pagan monk who lived about the 5th century BC, whose story bore a remarkable resemblance to that of the Catholic bishop.

Of course, there are a lot of theories abounding about the origins of Christmas traditions, and some of them may not be as pagan as they are thought to be, though certainly some of them are.

[Logical]

Think I'm gonna answer my own question, as I got curious here and didn't want to wait. This is what I found but it is wiki as a start; then asia source etc.

.... (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christmas_worldwide)
Japan, China, North Korea, Bhutan- not a national/legal holiday
...

BTW several Christian denominations, notably the Jehovah's Witnesses, Puritans, and some fundamentalists, view Christmas as a pagan holiday not sanctioned by the Bible.

BEP I lived in Japan for 6 months and it is most definitely a huge holiday, Mitsubishi and MELCO workers were both off for Christmas and they have Christmas gift giving and the stores are decorated with Christmas decorations for at least a month prior to Christmas. It may technically not be an official holiday but it is definitely celebrated.

[Adept Havelock]

Let's buy and donate some of these...

http://www.judaism.com/display.asp?nt=ajao&etn=IIBHH


Nice. That's classsic.

As for Christmas, well, I'm certainly not a Christian, but I see nothing wrong with people celebrating the birthday of a nice Jewish boy who made the big time. :)

[Believer]

While this policy may seem a little petty, it does make sense to a degree when you pause to consider that many of the needy children that benefit from the T4T program are from low-income African-American families, among whom Islam is a very popular religious affiliation, so there's a very good chance that any given recipient of one of these toys is going to be a Muslim child. I'm sure their appreciation over getting a talking Jesus doll would be about the same as that of a Christian child receiving a talking Muhammed doll.

even more African-American families are Christian, but the secular world wants you believe that the only Christians out there are white, southern, glassy eyed Republican loons. 40% of Christians are Democrats.
But back to your point, what people forget, is that while everybody seems to have "hijacked" the holiday, Christmas celebrates the birth of Jesus Christ. A Jesus doll as a Christmas gift makes perfect sense. It wouldnt if it was a Ramadon present.

[BucEyedPea]

BEP I lived in Japan for 6 months and it is most definitely a huge holiday, Mitsubishi and MELCO workers were both off for Christmas and they have Christmas gift giving and the stores are decorated with Christmas decorations for at least a month prior to Christmas. It may technically not be an official holiday but it is definitely celebrated.
The link I looked in did say it was celebrated but commercially; also that it was very commercialized as opposed to religious. I had that part posted at first, but wanted to keep it short so I put up the link instead which had that if anyone wanted to know more. I was just curious as to where Christmas was an official legal holiday over all of Asia even where Christians were a minority. I believe that many Japanese practice Shintoism.

Thanks for the extra info.
And have a very Merry Christmas too! :)

[stevieray]

Again, look up the word "bigotry." Apparently, you don't understand its meaning. Here, I'll help.

from Dictionary.com

bigotry [big-uh-tree] –noun, plural -ries 1.stubborn and complete intolerance of any creed, belief, or opinion that differs from one's own.




sardonic [sahr-don-ik]
–adjective

characterized by bitter or scornful derision; mocking; cynical; sneering: a sardonic grin.

The comment that you would need to build a time machine if you wanted to live in a time where Jesus was a part of every American household's Christmas celebration (note there wasn't a mention of a crusade; I'm not sure what hole you pulled that one from), and that Pat Robertson and Bill O'Reilly would probably help you with the funding, was a sardonic, mocking, cynical comment. It did not, however, convey an intolerance of your belief system. It did not convey that the inclusion of Jesus in a Christmas celebration is unwelcome, unwarranted, or intolerable. It only derisively observed that Christmas has long been secularized and commercialized, and that if you believe it is still entirely a religious celebration only for Christians, you're living in Lala Land.

Now, if you believe that any of my posts have conveyed an intolerance of your religious beliefs, I challenge you once again to copy and paste them. Note that you've made similar charges in the past, based solely on the fact that I'm publically non-Christian, and I've challenged you on those occasions to put your money where your mouth is, and you've yet to step up even once to meet that challenge. Each time, it's come down to you saying, "Blah blah blah, you're a bigot 'cuz you don't believe like I do, blah blah blah." Will this time be different?

did you honestly waste this much time on something you don't believe in...?

of course you did...now look up Christmas...

[Nightwish]

even more African-American families are Christian,
I understand that. But among Americans, there are more African-Americans who are Muslim than any other race. It is a very popular religion among African-Americans.

but the secular world wants you believe that the only Christians out there are white, southern, glassy eyed Republican loons.
I'm not sure where you got that idea. I've never heard anyone try to suggest or imply anything of the sort.

But back to your point, what people forget, is that while everybody seems to have "hijacked" the holiday, Christmas celebrates the birth of Jesus Christ.
In Christian households, it does. What you forget is that the traditions that we recognize as the myriad celebrations of Christmas didn't suddenly begin out of whole cloth the moment the Catholics decided to name the day "Christmas." And those traditions didn't begin out of whole cloth the day someone in the church thought it would be nifty to celebrate an incorrectly chosen day to represent the birth of Christ. Before the birth of Christ, it was the birth of Sol Invictus, it was the celebration of Saturnalia, it was the birth of Mithra, and so on. While some of the Christmas traditions originate with Christianity, many of them do not. Point is, whatever you choose to call it, this festival that we most commonly know as Christmas was around for quite awhile before the Christians got ahold of it and added their own story to it.

A Jesus doll as a Christmas gift makes perfect sense.
For a Christian child.

[Nightwish]

did you honestly waste this much time on something you don't believe in...?
What is it I don't believe in? The rant wasn't about Christianity, it was about the meaning of the word "bigot" (which is meaningless from your mouth, used incorrectly as it is). Are you suggesting that I don't believe in the meaning of the word "bigot?"

[stevieray]

What is it I don't believe in? The rant wasn't about Christianity, it was about the meaning of the word "bigot" (which is meaningless from your mouth, used incorrectly as it is). Are you suggesting that I don't believe in the meaning of the word "bigot?"

i'm suggesting you wasted another weekend in the name of...

[Nightwish]

i'm suggesting you wasted another weekend in the name of...
So are you going to step up and answer your challenge this time? Each time I've challenged you in the past to support your claim that I'm a bigot, or a Christian-hater, or whatever, you've run away. Are you going to step up this time?

[stevieray]

So are you going to step up and answer your challenge this time? Each time I've challenged you in the past to support your claim that I'm a bigot, or a Christian-hater, or whatever, you've run away. Are you going to step up this time?

dude you seem to think that your game is new..I'm not going to play semantics with you.as much shit as you sling, i think you'd be man enough to live with it.

now hurry, get the last word in.

[Nightwish]

dude you seem to think that your game is new..I'm not going to play semantics with you.as much shit as you sling, i think you'd be man enough to live with it.
In other words, you're gonna run away again. You called me a bigot, that's no light accusation. Now, put up or shut up.

[stevieray]

In other words, you're gonna run away again. You called me a bigot, that's no light accusation. Now, put up or shut up.
again, nightwish, as much shit as you sling, you'll have to live with the fact that someone has an opinion of you, just like you've had opinions of others.

[go bowe]

Exactly!

Not getting anything > only getting a talking Jesus Dollyep...

[Nightwish]

again, nightwish, as much shit as you sling, you'll have to live with the fact that someone has an opinion of you, just like you've had opinions of others.If the opinion is valid, that's fine. But yours isn't. Calling someone a bigot is like calling someone a racist. It's an egregious charge, not a light jab. Either support your accusation, or retract it. That's the mature thing to do.

[stevieray]

If the opinion is valid, that's fine. But yours isn't. Calling someone a bigot is like calling someone a racist. It's an egregious charge, not a light jab. Either support your accusation, or recant it. That's the mature thing to do.

it's my opinion. nothing more.

as you love to say, live with it.

[Nightwish]

it's my opinion. nothing more.

as you love to say, live with it.Well, I guess we've seen your true colors. Not man enough to put your money where your mouth is. You didn't simply opine. You accused. An accusation is more than an opinion, it's a character attack. The mature thing would be to support it or retract it.

[stevieray]

Well, I guess we've seen your true colors. Not man enough to put your money where your mouth is. You didn't simply opine. You accused. An accusation is more than an opinion, it's a character attack. The mature thing would be to support it or retract it.


character? you are a poser behind a name on a football board.

[Nightwish]

character? you are a poser behind a name on a football board.
As are you, but I don't just assume you're a computer program, you are a real person with a real personality and a real character. And that character can be attacked, as you wrongly attacked mine. I've attacked the character of others on this board, too, but when I've done so, I've retracted and apologized. I expect no less from you. And if I shouldn't expect as much from you, then you should probably ask yourself just how good a Christian you actually are.

[Logical]

again, nightwish, as much shit as you sling, you'll have to live with the fact that someone has an opinion of you, just like you've had opinions of others.True it is just an opinion you have even if it is illogical and totally inconsistent with the meaning of the word bigot.

[Lzen]

I wonder if they would reject an alternate holiday-related item and what kind of fallout there would be?

[Lzen]

.

[DenverChief]

Let's just give them a full set of talking Jesus, Muhammad, Moses, Bhudda, and uh...a talking cow I guess. Oh and a Tom Cruise.

LMAO thats a wonderful idea...I want a set

[Bob Dole]

Wonder if they'd accept a truckload of stuffed Flying Spaghetti Monsters?

[Adept Havelock]

Wonder if they'd accept a truckload of stuffed Flying Spaghetti Monsters?


Probably, though they didn't want my Cthulhu Plushies.... :cuss:

[BucEyedPea]

I never commented on the appropriateness aspect of this thread as I seemed to have got caught up in how Xmas was celebrated ww.

I just don't get how anyone, really, can say what is appropriate for any individual. Every person and child is unique. We each do our own valuing. If I won a million dollars I'm sure I wouldn't spend it on what you would exactly.

Now, pertaining to this gift...I woulda' loved that doll as child for a gift. I was enthralled with the Christ-child and the whole nativity story as a child...I mean I played with the Manger set in my Mom's fireplace for hours on end.

[Logical]

I never commented on the appropriateness aspect of this thread as I seemed to have got caught up in how Xmas was celebrated ww.

I just don't get how anyone, really, can say what is appropriate for any individual. Every person and child is unique. We each do our own valuing. If I won a million dollars I'm sure I wouldn't spend it on what you would exactly.

Now, pertaining to this gift...I woulda' loved that doll as child for a gift. I was enthralled with the Christ-child and the whole nativity story as a child...I mean I played with the Manger set in my Mom's fireplace for hours on end.

Not that it would change your view but I am pretty sure it was a doll of an adult Jesus that spoke Bible verses, not a baby Jesus.

[BucEyedPea]

Not that it would change your view but I am pretty sure it was a doll of an adult Jesus that spoke Bible verses, not a baby Jesus.
Yeah I know...but I just loved Bible stories, Logical. I used to draw the adult Christ in school a lot too. Serman on the Mount and the fishes and loaves story.
In fact I used to get out of class all the time to paint the school windows with the same images. I loved it.

[RJ]

Exactly!

Not getting anything > only getting a talking Jesus Doll


:clap:



That in a nutshell should sum it all up. This doesn't have anything to do with anyone's beliefs, it's just a crap present. Don't believe me? Then head down to Toys R Us and see how many Talking Jesus Dolls they have in stock.....and I'm sure we all know they'd be stocked to the ceiling if the Toys R Us folks thought they would sell. But they don't, because even Christian parents aren't likely to be putting such a present under the tree.

I'm thinking the original intent of TforT was to make children happy.

[Logical]

Yeah I know...but I just loved Bible stories, Logical. I used to draw the adult Christ in school a lot too. Serman on the Mount and the fishes and loaves story.
In fact I used to get out of class all the time to paint the school windows with the same images. I loved it.BEP I am not sure are you male or female. I have a theory that it would be somewhat popular with females and pretty much despised by most males as a gift.

[BucEyedPea]

BEP I am not sure are you male or female.

That's funny....*chuckle*....after all this time? That's okay though.

I have a theory that it would be somewhat popular with females and pretty much despised by most males as a gift.

Well, I would agree with ya' here. I just think it's an individual thing. It's all demographics. Those from religious homes just may like it, perhaps even more so for Hispanic ones.

As they say in public relations...it's just for a certain "public."

[stevieray]

I never commented on the appropriateness aspect of this thread as I seemed to have got caught up in how Xmas was celebrated ww.

I just don't get how anyone, really, can say what is appropriate for any individual. Every person and child is unique. We each do our own valuing. If I won a million dollars I'm sure I wouldn't spend it on what you would exactly.

Now, pertaining to this gift...I woulda' loved that doll as child for a gift. I was enthralled with the Christ-child and the whole nativity story as a child...I mean I played with the Manger set in my Mom's fireplace for hours on end.


good post.

sometimes, for some, the only gift left to give or receive is Jesus.

[KCWolfman]

:clap:



That in a nutshell should sum it all up. This doesn't have anything to do with anyone's beliefs, it's just a crap present. Don't believe me? Then head down to Toys R Us and see how many Talking Jesus Dolls they have in stock.....and I'm sure we all know they'd be stocked to the ceiling if the Toys R Us folks thought they would sell. But they don't, because even Christian parents aren't likely to be putting such a present under the tree.

I'm thinking the original intent of TforT was to make children happy.
It is nice that you and Dan T speak for all childkind in the US.

So what did you two donate to TfT this year? Was it as many items as those who donated the dolls? If not, then perhaps you couldnt afford Christmas for your children and you are pissed that they received the dolls?

I believe Buc Eyed Pea has demonstrated with his statements that there are definitely children out there who would appreciate such items. If not, instead of carping about the generosity of others that you cannot fathom, perhaps you should surpass their efforts and donate more than they did to offset what you perceive to be inadequate?

[DanT]

It is nice that you and Dan T speak for all childkind in the US.

So what did you two donate to TfT this year? Was it as many items as those who donated the dolls? If not, then perhaps you couldnt afford Christmas for your children and you are pissed that they received the dolls?

I believe Buc Eyed Pea has demonstrated with his statements that there are definitely children out there who would appreciate such items. If not, instead of carping about the generosity of others that you cannot fathom, perhaps you should surpass their efforts and donate more than they did to offset what you perceive to be inadequate?


Before I answer your questions, I'd like to point out that Jesus is the Word (logos). Here's one of Jesus's teachings:

www.biblegateway.com[/url])]
New International Version (NIV)

Copyright © 1973, 1978, 1984 by International Bible Society

Matthew 6

Giving to the Needy
*1 "Be careful not to do your 'acts of righteousness' before men, to be seen by them. If you do, you will have no reward from your Father in heaven.

*2 "So when you give to the needy, do not announce it with trumpets, as the hypocrites do in the synagogues and on the streets, to be honored by men. I tell you the truth, they have received their reward in full. 3 But when you give to the needy, do not let your left hand know what your right hand is doing, 4 so that your giving may be in secret. Then your Father, who sees what is done in secret, will reward you.

I never claimed to speak for all childkind in the US, by the way. I do claim to speak for myself. Also, I strive to follow Christ's commandment to do unto others as you would have them do unto you.

I haven't given any toys to Toys for Tots this year. You are correct that Buc Eyed Pea has demonstrated with (her) comments that there are some children who would appeciate such a gift. Also, I found out yesterday by reading the Vision statement for the company that makes the talking Jesus doll that it is intended to be used as a learning tool (http://www.one2believe.com/vision/) for parents and children when they are reading the Bible together, so I no longer consider my criticisms of the doll's as a toy to be fair, as they were offered in consideration of a kid playing with the toy by himself or with other kids.

To answer your third question, I don't have any children. As for your fourth question, thanks for the advice.

[patteeu]

It is nice that you and Dan T speak for all childkind in the US.

So what did you two donate to TfT this year? Was it as many items as those who donated the dolls? If not, then perhaps you couldnt afford Christmas for your children and you are pissed that they received the dolls?

I believe Buc Eyed Pea has demonstrated with his statements that there are definitely children out there who would appreciate such items. If not, instead of carping about the generosity of others that you cannot fathom, perhaps you should surpass their efforts and donate more than they did to offset what you perceive to be inadequate?

FYI, BucEyedPea is a she.

[Bob Dole]

They should have given them the Moses version.

http://www.messengersoffaith.net/images/Moses3.jpg

[Chiefnj]

It looks like Moses is sporting some kung-fu grip. I wonder who would win in a fight, Moses or GI Joe?

[Nightwish]

Here's one of Jesus's teachings:

Originally Posted by The Bible (www.biblegateway.com (http://www.biblegateway.com/))

New International Version (NIV)

Copyright © 1973, 1978, 1984 by International Bible Society

Matthew 6

Giving to the Needy
*1 "Be careful not to do your 'acts of righteousness' before men, to be seen by them. If you do, you will have no reward from your Father in heaven.

*2 "So when you give to the needy, do not announce it with trumpets, as the hypocrites do in the synagogues and on the streets, to be honored by men. I tell you the truth, they have received their reward in full. 3 But when you give to the needy, do not let your left hand know what your right hand is doing, 4 so that your giving may be in secret. Then your Father, who sees what is done in secret, will reward you.
Fwiw, I don't think this passage pertains to the content of the charity. It's more about using charity for self-aggrandizement, warning givers not to go bragging publically that they gave something to the needy, because that makes the gesture more about lauding yourself and setting yourself up as a paragon, than about a truly selfless act of charity.

[Nightwish]

I believe Buc Eyed Pea has demonstrated with his statements that there are definitely children out there who would appreciate such items.
I believe BEP also demonstrated in her post, that she was raised in a Christian household. If she had been raised in a Jewish, Muslim, Hindu or other household, do you suppose she would have said the same thing about her childhood delight with the nativity story? I was also raised in a Christian household, and I still love the nativity story, too, although for me, it is like loving a good fiction novel, because I don't believe in it.

[DanT]

[/i]
Fwiw, I don't think this passage pertains to the content of the charity. It's more about using charity for self-aggrandizement, warning givers not to go bragging publically that they gave something to the needy, because that makes the gesture more about lauding yourself and setting yourself up as a paragon, than about a truly selfless act of charity.


I agree, Nightwish. I cited the verse because I wanted it to be understood that an enumeration of one's charitable acts is something many of us Chrisitians would wish to avoid.

[Nightwish]

I agree, Nightwish. I cited the verse because I wanted it to be understood that an enumeration of one's charitable acts is something many of us Chrisitians would wish to avoid.
Ah, understood. Actually that's pretty good advice for anyone, not just Christians. I've given charitable contributions before, and felt a great deal of personal and spiritual satisfaction in doing so, but it's always seemed to me that it diminishes the act when you go tell somebody else about it. I've never even reported a charitable contribution on my income tax.

I don't think any charity should advertise its affiliations, either. That's one problem I have with a lot of religious charities, is that they go out of their way to make sure you know that they are a religious group of whatever affiliation. The pagan charities tend to be an exception to this rule, but I don't think it is because they are more selfless, I think it is often because they're afraid that people will succomb to false stereotypes (all pagans are evil devil-worshippers, etc.) and avoid the charity if they knew the organizers were pagans. There are a lot of food kitchens, meals-on-wheels, and similar charities that are run by pagan groups, but they won't tell you that.

[DanT]

Ah, understood. Actually that's pretty good advice for anyone, not just Christians. I've given charitable contributions before, and felt a great deal of personal and spiritual satisfaction in doing so, but it's always seemed to me that it diminishes the act when you go tell somebody else about it. I've never even reported a charitable contribution on my income tax.

I don't think any charity should advertise its affiliations, either. That's one problem I have with a lot of religious charities, is that they go out of their way to make sure you know that they are a religious group of whatever affiliation. The pagan charities tend to be an exception to this rule, but I don't think it is because they are more selfless, I think it is often because they're afraid that people will succomb to false stereotypes (all pagans are evil devil-worshippers, etc.) and avoid the charity if they knew the organizers were pagans. There are a lot of food kitchens, meals-on-wheels, and similar charities that are run by pagan groups, but they won't tell you that.

Yeah, I have to admit, though, that's something I struggle with. I have a big mouth in general and I'm one of my own favorite topics in particular, so I'm always inclined to brag about the little bit I do to repay the very much that I've been blessed with from others. ;)

[RJ]

It is nice that you and Dan T speak for all childkind in the US.

So what did you two donate to TfT this year? Was it as many items as those who donated the dolls? If not, then perhaps you couldnt afford Christmas for your children and you are pissed that they received the dolls?

I believe Buc Eyed Pea has demonstrated with his statements that there are definitely children out there who would appreciate such items. If not, instead of carping about the generosity of others that you cannot fathom, perhaps you should surpass their efforts and donate more than they did to offset what you perceive to be inadequate?



I stand by what I said. If Jesus dolls were a popular child's plaything you would find them in every toy store but they're not so you won't. My opinion has to do with the gift, not the religion. If the donation had been, say, 4000 monogrammed bowling shirts or yo-yos without string I'd be making the same argument. It's just a lame gift to give a little kid, especially a kid who might not receive much more.

As to charitable donations or my children, it's none of anyone's business, just as no one else's is of mine.

It's nice that Buc Eyed Pea had such an interest in Jesus as a child, that's a good infatuation to have. I'm thinking, though, that it would probably be out of the ordinary. The average 7 y/o likely would prefer Dora the Explorer or that Spongebob dude.

[BucEyedPea]

I'm thinking, though, that it would probably be out of the ordinary.
Yeah! It's called a niche market.