I'm going to clear the air about Iraq

[NewPhin]

Actually, I'm probably just going to ramble a bit, but I've been building up thoughts on this thing for a while. Hell, I've thrown out a mishmash of 'em ever since the thing began.

First of all: I was against the war from the get go. Almost every fear I had going into the war (and if our archives went back that far, I could prove it) has turned out to be justified. Hell, I'd almost look prescient if the archives went back.

Secondly: I'll be pissed at this administration and the neocons for a long, long time for getting us into this war. They made a huge mistake, and they should be held accountable for that mistake. I believe these most recent elections were a start of them being held accountable. I believe their place in the history books as some of the worst leaders our country has ever had the misfortune of electing will complete it. I do not want the Dems to spend the next two years going after the Repubs. History will prove who was right, and that's enough. Hopefullly we learn from that history.

Thirdly: I'm pissed at the DNC for supporting this war. I'm even more pissed off and sick of all the people (including the DNC) who now advocate complete and total withdrawal from Iraq. I sat on this BB and was insulted repeatedly for my views against the war by some of the very same people who now advocate pulling out. We cannot just up and pull out.

Finally: Even though I recognize that we must bring some sort of closure to Iraq, I also believe that it's a near impossible task. We have to set some benchmarks that define "progress" in this War. Then we need to work toward those benchmarks with the end goal of complete withdrawal from Iraq. I do not want to adhere to the Neocon vision of using Iraq as a base of operations to bring stability to the ME. I want to GTFO of the ME ASAP.

I have no idea why I just posted that thread, but there you have it.

[Calcountry]

Actually, I'm probably just going to ramble a bit, but I've been building up thoughts on this thing for a while. Hell, I've thrown out a mishmash of 'em ever since the thing began.

First of all: I was against the war from the get go. Almost every fear I had going into the war (and if our archives went back that far, I could prove it) has turned out to be justified. Hell, I'd almost look prescient if the archives went back.

Secondly: I'll be pissed at this administration and the neocons for a long, long time for getting us into this war. They made a huge mistake, and they should be held accountable for that mistake. I believe these most recent elections were a start of them being held accountable. I believe their place in the history books as some of the worst leaders our country has ever had the misfortune of electing will complete it. I do not want the Dems to spend the next two years going after the Repubs. History will prove who was right, and that's enough. Hopefullly we learn from that history.

Thirdly: I'm pissed at the DNC for supporting this war. I'm even more pissed off and sick of all the people (including the DNC) who now advocate complete and total withdrawal from Iraq. I sat on this BB and was insulted repeatedly for my views against the war by some of the very same people who now advocate pulling out. We cannot just up and pull out.

Finally: Even though I recognize that we must bring some sort of closure to Iraq, I also believe that it's a near impossible task. We have to set some benchmarks that define "progress" in this War. Then we need to work toward those benchmarks with the end goal of complete withdrawal from Iraq. I do not want to adhere to the Neocon vision of using Iraq as a base of operations to bring stability to the ME. I want to GTFO of the ME ASAP.

I have no idea why I just posted that thread, but there you have it.At least you are intellectually honest.

I am for the Democrats taking a seat at the table, hearing from our intel and generals what we are up against. Deciding, bi partisan, what is in the countries strategic national interests given our current position. Then jumping on board the train with the pedal to the metel to kick some serious un bridled booty, then withdrawing to a safe staging base, say in Turkey, and being ready to put out brush fires in the region on a rapid deployment basis, then withdrawing back to the base.

[Ugly Duck]

Then jumping on board the train with the pedal to the metel to kick some serious un bridled booty, then withdrawing to a safe staging base, say in Turkey, and being ready to put out brush fires in the region on a rapid deployment basis, then withdrawing back to the base.

Neocons call that "cut and run."

[BucEyedPea]

Great post NewChief! I saw all that on other boards myself. Exact same reactions and behaviors.

I do not believe nation-state warfare is the answer to, at least America's terror problem. In fact if military is wrongly applied it can make it worse. I feel that it is more a police and intel problem with some military use—like Afghanistan. I have been reading (Newsweek (http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/15716203/site/newsweek/)) that our police, local govt and first responders have been doing a terrific job nowadays with the change-ups in sharing CIA/FBI intel and have been the real key to no new attacks.

['Hamas' Jenkins]

Great post NewChief! I saw all that on other boards myself. Exact same reactions and behaviors.

I do not believe nation-state warfare is the answer to, at least America's terror problem. In fact if military is wrongly applied it can make it worse. I feel that it is more a police and intel problem with some military use—like Afghanistan. I have been reading (Newsweek (http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/15716203/site/newsweek/)) that our police, local govt and first responders have been doing a terrific job nowadays with the change-ups in sharing CIA/FBI intel and have been the real key to no new attacks.

And yet libs have been CRUCIFIED when they mentioned that the GWOT is more of a policing effort than a military action....:hmmm:

[BucEyedPea]

And yet libs have been CRUCIFIED when they mentioned that the GWOT is more of a policing effort than a military action....:hmmm:
Yup! I know that.

If they were Iranians or Syrians, and not disaffected ones, then it would be another matter. Then nation-state warfare would be more appropo and police action would be a backup. Imo.

[stevieray]

Thanks for being candid. I respect your opinion.

I just watched a "homemade" video from an Officer in Iraq...I still think we are doing the right thing.

[Logical]

At least you are intellectually honest.

I am for the Democrats taking a seat at the table, hearing from our intel and generals what we are up against. Deciding, bi partisan, what is in the countries strategic national interests given our current position. Then jumping on board the train with the pedal to the metel to kick some serious un bridled booty, then withdrawing to a safe staging base, say in Turkey, and being ready to put out brush fires in the region on a rapid deployment basis, then withdrawing back to the base.

I don't think the insurgency can be dealt a severe blow, but other than that your plan sounds like the Murtha plan and I am ok with that.

[patteeu]

Neocons call that "cut and run."

Not if it happens after we establish a self-sustaining, pro-western government in Iraq.

[patteeu]

I agree with you on several counts.

I agree that you were against the war to begin with.

I agree that Bush and the neocons should be judged by history, not democrats in Congress.

I agree that we can't just up and pull out.

I agree that it was wrong for Logical to first criticize you for opposing the war and to now cheerlead for retreat.

Of course, I disagree with most of the rest, but I do respect your thought process and your motivations here.

[patteeu]

And yet libs have been CRUCIFIED when they mentioned that the GWOT is more of a policing effort than a military action....:hmmm:

And rightly so. In addition to advocating "more of a policing effort," the "libs" you are talking about have also opposed several of what are reportedly the more successful methods for intelligence gathering that have been identified since 9/11: communications monitoring, secret prisons, coercive interrogations, and extraordinary rendition just to name a few. Without that intelligence to share, street cops aren't going to be busting many terror plots.

[Iowanian]

I'm going to disclose that I'm terribly surprised that a former nomadic, self proclaimed hippy and vegetarian Grateful Deadhead is against war.

[NewPhin]

I'm going to disclose that I'm terribly surprised that a former nomadic, self proclaimed hippy and vegetarian Grateful Deadhead is against war.


Heh. I'm actually not against war. I was all for Afghanistan. Hell, I'm even for finishing up this war (that was the point of my post).

And I'm no longer a veg. That's my wife. I eat meat every chance I get (which isn't often enough, since we usually eat veggie around the house).

[Iowanian]

I mostly couldn't pass up an opportunity to needle you.

I've had several family and friends in Iraq...with my longest childhood friend(born same day, lived 1 house away, same sitter, same class....) there now.

While I want victory for the US in the form of a successful govt in Iraq, capable of managing the savages(by all accounts of those I know there) and maintaining a positive working relationship with the US, I'm not sure thats how things are going to shake out.

I say we either have to go in with full force, and take out some of the major problems, regardless of the sure to follow uproar (Al Sadr needs to go among others), or pull our people out and watch the impending civil war that will split Iraq into 3 sections.....and probably cause a ruckus in Turkey with the Kurds wanting autonomy with those in Iraq.

It'll be a bloodbath....the Kurds get oil, fight with Turkey. The Sunni, who had control will get the middle and the Shiites will get the southern oil fields and probably allie with Iran and Syria, which isn't good for US interests.

At this point, I want whats best for the US. period. I think the biggest mistake we make is trying to make war Clean, allow too many cameras and give our soldiers too many rules. war is messy. Let them do what they need to do and leave them be. We should fight to win, not to appease.

[NewPhin]

I mostly couldn't pass up an opportunity to needle you.

I've had several family and friends in Iraq...with my longest childhood friend(born same day, lived 1 house away, same sitter, same class....) there now.


Wasn't your brother over there? Is he back safely now? Hope that all your loved ones make it back safe and sound. One of my best friends little brother is over there as well right now as are a bunch of my friends from Colorado (the dad is a contractor, son is a Ranger).

[Iowanian]

My brother did 14 months there. He's back and now out of the Army. We spent last week bow hunting and he took a giant whitetail, which we found on veterans day....the 3rd day of looking.

Its a tough year for anyone, while their family or friend is there......for that reason alone, I'd like to see them home, however I think pulling out too early negates the sacrifices already made by Alot of American families....and some have paid a very, very high price.

[NewPhin]

My brother did 14 months there. He's back and now out of the Army. We spent last week bow hunting and he took a giant whitetail, which we found on veterans day....the 3rd day of looking.

Very cool. Did you post a pic/story up in the hunting things thread? I must have missed it if so. *Edit* Found it and read it. Awesome story. Awesome deer.


Its a tough year for anyone, while their family or friend is there......for that reason alone, I'd like to see them home, however I think pulling out too early negates the sacrifices already made by Alot of American families....and some have paid a very, very high price.

I agree. I also feel that we have something of an obligation to the Iraqi citizens to at least get them somewhat back on their feet. Like you, I don't think it will ever be stable, regardless of what we do, but I'd like to at least give them a fighting shot.

[Bowser]

The way I see it, the problem with Iraq isn't what WE want, it's what the IRAQI'S want. And unfortunately, it doesn't look like they know, or are motivated to get, what they want. They've become addicted to our aid.

I was for going into Iraq at first. I bought into what Bush and cronies were saying about Hussein having WoMD, and on top of that, it just made sense. Who else in the region had the hatred of us and the facilities to carry it out? But after Powell made his speech in front of the UN with all these precise details of where weapons are and could be, only to come up with absolutely nothing, it changed for me. Yes, Hussein is an evil, evil man that has no place being leader of anything, but you can make that argument for leaders all over the world.

I know the word gets thrown around a bunch, but Iraq is a quagmire. It has become a money pit and troop killer, for what? The insurgency has gotten worse, not better, and there is no end in sight. We can't pull out and leave the country to ruin, or to be annexed by Iran, which brings me to my next point.

Maybe, just maybe, going into Iraq was pure genius. I have no idea of this, but perhaps someone somewhere with intel came across plans by Iran to combine extremists everywhere into one unified force in their "war" against Isreal. With them on the cusp of being a nuclear power, they would have been able to force those who were against them into submissive service, or face destruction. With us being in Iraq, this is not possible, or certainly much more difficult an endeavor. And at the very least, Iran doesn't have a free shot straight at Isreal with us in the way. All speculation, but like someone said earlier, we'll know more about this whole fiasco twenty years from now.

Whew. Pure ramble.

[patteeu]

I bought into what Bush and cronies were saying about Hussein having WoMD

"Cronies" like Colin Powell, like many of the top democrats in Congress, like Bill Clinton and his administration, like an entire world full of allied intelligence agencies, and even like experts who opposed the war such as Hans Blix.

[Bowser]

"Cronies" like Colin Powell, like many of the top democrats in Congress, like Bill Clinton and his administration, like an entire world full of allied intelligence agencies, and even like experts who opposed the war such as Hans Blix.

Yes. Cronies.

[patteeu]

Yes. Cronies.

LMAO

[Logical]

I agree with you on several counts.

I agree that you were against the war to begin with.

I agree that Bush and the neocons should be judged by history, not democrats in Congress.

I agree that we can't just up and pull out.

I agree that it was wrong for Logical to first criticize you for opposing the war and to now cheerlead for retreat.

Of course, I disagree with most of the rest, but I do respect your thought process and your motivations here.

I am still on record as favoring the overthow of Saddam and against the occupation. One is not inconsistent with the other. I believe we should get out and let self=determination take its course.

[Logical]

....
I agree. I also feel that we have something of an obligation to the Iraqi citizens to at least get them somewhat back on their feet. Like you, I don't think it will ever be stable, regardless of what we do, but I'd like to at least give them a fighting shot.If I thought that was possible I would be on board, but my belief is that we are making things worse for average joe Iraqi the longer we stay. Leaving would be bad, but staying may be worse. Lose lose.

[Calcountry]

I mostly couldn't pass up an opportunity to needle you.

I've had several family and friends in Iraq...with my longest childhood friend(born same day, lived 1 house away, same sitter, same class....) there now.

While I want victory for the US in the form of a successful govt in Iraq, capable of managing the savages(by all accounts of those I know there) and maintaining a positive working relationship with the US, I'm not sure thats how things are going to shake out.

I say we either have to go in with full force, and take out some of the major problems, regardless of the sure to follow uproar (Al Sadr needs to go among others), or pull our people out and watch the impending civil war that will split Iraq into 3 sections.....and probably cause a ruckus in Turkey with the Kurds wanting autonomy with those in Iraq.

It'll be a bloodbath....the Kurds get oil, fight with Turkey. The Sunni, who had control will get the middle and the Shiites will get the southern oil fields and probably allie with Iran and Syria, which isn't good for US interests.

At this point, I want whats best for the US. period. I think the biggest mistake we make is trying to make war Clean, allow too many cameras and give our soldiers too many rules. war is messy. Let them do what they need to do and leave them be. We should fight to win, not to appease.In order to win, we have to know what winning is. I don't think many Americans, to be quite frank about it, give a damn if Iraq becomes a democracy or not. Spell it out to me, G W, just what the heck is our national interests in kicking ass over there, then detail out a gameplan on how we as a nation can all help out to achieve, and then get it on. When done, get out.

[banyon]

In order to win, we have to know what winning is. I don't think many Americans, to be quite frank about it, give a damn if Iraq becomes a democracy or not. Spell it out to me, G W, just what the heck is our national interests in kicking ass over there, then detail out a gameplan on how we as a nation can all help out to achieve, and then get it on. When done, get out.

I agree. If Americans did care, they would've tried to sell the war that way on the front end.

[MarcBulger]

I don't believe anyone has the anwser, if Bush did we would have already done it. If the Dems did then they would give their opinion. I am a Bush supporter, but I have come to a point where we either take control with a full military assualt or we get out and let nature take its course.

[|Zach|]

http://www.youtube.com/v/m9A_vxIOB-I

[Bowser]

I don't believe anyone has the anwser, if Bush did we would have already done it. If the Dems did then they would give their opinion. I am a Bush supporter, but I have come to a point where we either take control with a full military assualt or we get out and let nature take its course.

Holy shit! It only took 629 posts, but I agree with you!

[Bowser]

http://www.youtube.com/v/m9A_vxIOB-I

Wow. The very definition of douchebaggery.

[DanT]

In order to win, we have to know what winning is. I don't think many Americans, to be quite frank about it, give a damn if Iraq becomes a democracy or not. Spell it out to me, G W, just what the heck is our national interests in kicking ass over there, then detail out a gameplan on how we as a nation can all help out to achieve, and then get it on. When done, get out.

The White House published the National Strategy for Victory in Iraq (http://www.whitehouse.gov/infocus/iraq/iraq_strategy_nov2005.htm) in November, 2005. It contains their views on many of the elements you mentioned.

[Jenson71]

http://www.youtube.com/v/m9A_vxIOB-I

There's a dropout who is the poster boy of savage, Iowanian. Not the kids running for clean water. Not the people trying to survive and take care of their families and don't have electricity.

Probably not much different than most of the soldiers. Have no education about the area, no knowledge of their culture, language. Just dumb, immature kids and makes me sick.

[Iowanian]

wtf does that mean Jenson?

You suggesting most military members are idiots? YOu were talking of joining.

That clip looks bad, but I've been told many times that when soldiers do give them water, as often as not, they take a drink, dump some on their feet adn drop it in the street.

I've heard enough first hand accounts of soldiers giving a kid with his hand out some water, and having a rock to throw at them in the other.....throwing bricks and rocks at our Soldiers.

I'll suggest that you're more uninformed of the true culture and language than someone who is or has been there for a year or more.

[Jenson71]

I don't have all the facts, I can only speculate, as can you, but I'd bet a lot of money that the average American soldier has little to no education about Iraqis and their lifestyle, and so when your relative calls them savages, it's only based on his point of view, and in all likelihood, they're not savages. And I believe there definitely are savages who are Iraqis, who blow people up, those people are disgraces to mankind. But that video was another disgrace to mankind and as an American I'm insulted that whoever it is is an American soldier, and we are supposed to honor him and respect him. Well that's bullshit, it just hurts America. It hurts your brother and your best friend, it hurts our whole country. So **** that guy.

I don't care how many times a kid dumps water on his feet when we give it to him. Just keep giving it to him and for God's sake, do not do as that video shows. I know of a Bible verse that asks us to turn the other cheek. And I'm betting that's not the only occurence of such actions to the "savages". **** this liberation if we think they're savages. And **** that kid he needs out of there.

[Iowanian]

I'm going to let one of the planet members, in the military, who has been to Iraq respond.