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Mi_chief_fan
01-17-2001, 04:14 PM
Now, i'll admit it: I HATE golf. Can't play. Can't stand to watch. The very thought of calling these spoiled, rich brats 'athletes' makes me either want to laugh uncontrollably, or vomit(it's a fine line, you know).

However, the whole Casey Martin fiasco really bugs me. Those who say that he should be able to use this cart, as a result of the disabilities act, are really disillusioned. Somehow, I doubt the NBA, NHL or NFL would allow such a thing either.If so, Joe Montana might have led the Chiefs to a couple of Super Bowl wins.

I guess what it comes down to is this: is golf a 'sport'? For them to be taken seriously, they really need the Supreme Court to turn down Martins request.

If Martin wins, i'll be entering my golf cart in this year's Boston Marathon. :D:

Baby Lee
01-17-2001, 04:21 PM
I am also concerned with the press coverage which is consistently at pains to point out that 'this ruling could end his career.' Dude was ranks like 150th and still made over $140K last year.
When I was a kid, a tried baseball and the consensus was I sucked. That effectively ended my pro baseball career. At college, the 'freshman 15' [plus] effectively ended my [as yet unrealized] modeling career.

Iowanian
01-17-2001, 04:23 PM
maybe we should get Marcus allen a "Rascal portable cart" and resign him...put a grill guard on the front...after all, he is retired, and it would be hard on his old knees to run down that long field...

maybe he should switch to miniature golf?

morphius
01-17-2001, 04:30 PM
I wonder if I could claim that my arm gets tired when I golf, if I golfed, and that I need to shoot the ball from the modified golf cart that no resmbles a tank with a big cannon to shoot it from to compete fairly.

I believe that the major sports, NFL, NBA, NHL and MLB all have exceptions for them written into law so they don't have to worry about such stupid labor law suits.

Bob Dole
01-17-2001, 04:32 PM
Bob Dole had the same discussion with someone early this morning after seeing ESPN's coverage of the issue.

Bob Dole suggested that the results of heavy smoking, beer drinking and lack of excercise should be considered disabilities, and the NFL should make reasonable accomodations for such. Bob Dole will be happy to play for the league minimum next season.

You think it's bad--try going to a national ADA conference and listening to the EEO officials talk about court decisions and their intent to select cases to push through in an attempt to reverse the courts' decisions. Bob Dole is all for equal access, but things have been pushed a little too far, IBDHO.

58Forever
01-17-2001, 04:37 PM
Walk or don't play.

One thing to remember though...the cost of playing on tour is high...eventhough he made over 140k, his expenses were probably almost that much...unless he had corporate sponsors...he didn't make nearly that much...probably broke even if he was lucky...

With that said, and wether you consider golf a sport or not...it is still a game...what I wouldn't give to earn a living playing a game I loved...

because of the ADA...the Supreme Court will probably rule in his favor...that would be wrong...regardless, I'm a little tired of hearing about it anyway...

Mi_chief_fan
01-17-2001, 04:38 PM
I believe that the major sports, NFL, NBA, NHL and MLB all have exceptions for them written into law so they don't have to worry about such stupid labor law suits.

EXACTLY my point. Is golf a 'Sport'?

58Forever
01-17-2001, 04:43 PM
1 a : a source of diversion : RECREATION b : sexual play c (1) : physical activity engaged in for pleasure (2) : a particular activity (as an athletic game) so engaged in


according to Webster...definition of Sport...make your own determination...I'm a golfer, am I an athlete because I play golf?...no, I'm an athlete because I played football, baseball, basketball, etc...after watching some of my fellow golfers, I can't argue with the fact that golfers are not athletes...but athletes are golfers...

redhed
01-17-2001, 04:53 PM
Golfers are athletes. So are bowlers, fencers, javelin throwers, snowboarders, cc skiers, racewalkers, and any other fringe sport I've neglected to mention. It requires a great deal of skill to play at the level of a PGA golfer. Just because the sport of golf isn't that athletic, doesn't mean golfers aren't athletes.

Casey Martin should lose his appeal. You have to have the physical ability to play by the rules, or you should be dq'ed. Tough cookies.

Pitt Gorilla
01-17-2001, 04:56 PM
I hope Martin wins and gets to play. It's not because I like golf; Quite the contrary. I abhore the fact that it's on tv. I would love to see those pansies whining about some guy getting to use a cart and ruining their sport. What sport? You hit a damn ball. That's it. No defense involved. Fans have to remain "quiet." Wouldn't you just love it if basketball was that way? Marv, in a hushed voice "Camby's free throw, yes, it counts." Come on! Golfers claim the elements are the defense. I guess bowlers claim the lanes are the defense. How about the lighting? Until they institute goalies to block the hole or allow verbal taunting by the crowd, I'm saying "you go, Casey!"

KCWolfman
01-17-2001, 05:07 PM
Even Women arent allowed special dispensation in the WNBA... Martin doesnt deserve the game changed for him

DanT
01-17-2001, 06:40 PM
Golf is a sport and reasonable accomodations should be made to allow Casey Martin to play. The only thing that walking the course has to do with PGA tournament golf is that it tires out the golfers. There's nothing at all about walking the course that has squat to do with the skills that define a golfer and, in fact, there are gobs and gobs of golf tournaments every year where carts are allowed--in fact, in many tournaments, they are required.

Because of Casey Martin's disability, he gets plenty tired just walking from his cart to the ball, executing his shot and walking back to the cart: far more tired than any of the tour pros who currently walk the course, from what I understand.

I think it's silly to deny Martin a chance to outcompete the best golfers in the world merely because he can't walk the course. I consider the rule that all golfers (regardless of disability) must walk the course about as unrelated to the essence of that sport as the former rule on the Reds that their baseball cleats must all be black.

DanT
01-17-2001, 06:58 PM
I don't understand why the PGA Tour can't make an exception for Martin. There's not any reason to think that "a slippery slope" will occur if they make an allowance for Martin to compete. The only thing that would happen if the PGA demonstrated a little more humanity in interpreting its own rules than would a TRS-80 personal computer is that the top levels of competition would be enhanced by one or two exceptional golfers every generation. It's goofy that the PGA wants to get into a pissing contest over such a completely unessential and clearly exceptional matter as this one.

ChiefsFanatic
01-17-2001, 07:01 PM
I am sorry. I don't agree with any of you people who say he shouldn't be allowed to ride. He does not have an "injury", he has not caused this himself (like smoking, drinking, and lack of exercise). The man's leg is diseased. Last year Beaman compared his plight to that of a golfer with an ingrown toenail. Ridiculous.

If you are one of the people who argue that riding would give him a competitive advantage, you are wrong, because that would assume that without the cart his abilities are even and level with other pros. He is at a disadvantage without a cart. That is why he is handicapped. If he could walk 18 holes with as much ease as others then he would not need a cart. He has trouble walking from cart to ball over 18 holes, much less tee to green 18 times.

I agree that professional sports groups should be able to make and enforce their own rules, but only when it does not supercede federal law.

Imagine if the PGA had a rule against minorities and gays playing. Would you all still hold to the idea that they should be able to rule themselves without interuption from the courts? I doubt it.

DanT
01-17-2001, 07:06 PM
Personally, when I've gotten my sorry butt beat my 20 and 30 strokes over 18 holes in which I walked the course and others in my group took a cart, I've never once had that fact enter into my prodigious excuse-making productions.

Most chess players know for a fact that they have rarely if ever been beaten by a superior opponent ;) What this fact really means is that humans are great at making excuses. Still, I bet only a few golfers have ever tried to pretend that a reason why they lost a round was because they didn't get to use a cart while their opponent did: that's so graceless and ridiculous on its face that even in the denial-flooded confines of the 19th hole, only the most desparate losers would try to float that excuse.

[Edited by DanT on 01-17-2001 at 07:19 PM]

administrator
01-17-2001, 07:36 PM
DanT,

I agree that walking versus riding doesn't make a big difference... BUT the PGA has a rule that has been around a LONG time and if Casey Martin wants to play in the PGA he needs to abide by their rules.
The NBA has rules against using devices to augment my height. It isn't my fault that I'm not 6'10"... so using Casey Martin's arguement, shouldn't I be able to wear 10" lifts and play in the NBA.

Playing golf is not a RIGHT it is a privelage to those who fit within the framework. If Casey Martin doesn't fit that framework... I'm sorry but too bad.

--Kyle

~Read the story "Harrison Bergeron" by Kurt Vonnegut if you want to see what this type of thinking can lead to.

DanT
01-17-2001, 07:42 PM
Kyle,

10" lifts could conceivably give you an advantage in baseketball. I haven't heard any credible argument that Martin would enjoy a meaningful advantage over other golfers by having a cart.

I think you might want to reread Harrison Bergeron: from what I recall from the couple of times I've read it, the equalizing handicaps were applied to gifted people. I don't think any serious person thinks that being able to walk a golf course is anything to write home about. It certainly isn't anything that defines who is or who is not considered a great golfer. I used to walk 50+ holes at Swope Park in a day and I still suck at golf. ;)

[Edited by DanT on 01-17-2001 at 07:59 PM]

DanT
01-17-2001, 07:50 PM
The Harrison Bergeron approach would be to apply a handicap to the golfers without the crippling and completely exceptional disease that Martin has. The Harrison Bergeron approach would diminish the level of competition. The approach that allows Martin to use a cart would enhance the level of competition, for the same reason that getting rid of the color barrier enhanced the level of competition in baseball. Any limitation on who gets to play at the highest level of a sport that is not a reasonable one necessarily hinders competition by denying otherwise worthy competitors a chance.

administrator
01-17-2001, 08:04 PM
DanT,

I agree that it was a weak analogy..but you see my point.
IT is a definite disability...but why doeas the PGA OWE Casey Martin the oppurtunity to play. I agree that walking vs. riding isn't a big deal... but the PGA feels differently. I don't think that we should start legislating what professional sports organizations can and can't determine as competetive factors.

I don't like the PGA's decision... but I dislike more the idea that this dispute should be resolved by the courts. It is unfortunate... but so is life.

What about my absurd arguement that I should be allowed to wear lifts and play in the NBA? It the same equalization arguement.

--Kyle

Mark M
01-17-2001, 08:08 PM
I'm going to have to agree with DanT on this one. The guy has a handicap that is beyond his control. I smoke, drink and have scoleosis and don't find walking 18 holes all that difficult ... and I had to carry my own damn bag. These guys have some poor schlep carry it for them. If walking is such a big deal, let Tiger tote his own sticks.

And for those of you that do golf and think he's getting some kind of unfair advantage, try playing with one good leg and then tell me how easy it is. If this guy can make the cut playing on a bad leg, then let him do it, cart or not.

The analogy of platform shoes in the NBA is ridiculous. Sure, it's not your fault that you're not tall, but neither was Mugsy Boges (sp?) and he seemed to do okay. Hell, my mom's taller than that guy. It's the skills that matter. Jordan is one of the greatest athletes of all time, and I don't see him earning his tour card any time soon.

MM
~~Doesn't see how a cart makes a difference if you can sink a 30 foot putt.

administrator
01-17-2001, 08:10 PM
DanT,

btw... I am very impressed with the fact that you understood the Vonnegut reference.

--Kyle

DanT
01-17-2001, 08:23 PM
Kyle,

I agree that I would rather that the PGA figure out stuff on its own.

I can't really comment too much on your "lifts"-argument because I'm not one to think that height alone is what separates the 80 inchers in the NBA from the 70 inchers in office buildings.

I think that Martin's driving ability certainly makes him comparable to the ballerina and the great thinker in Harrison Bergeron. Anyone ranked in the top 10 on the PGA Tour on that dimension is exceptional. The things that separate the Tour cardholders from regular duffers have to do with their ability to drive the ball, to attack a hole wisely, to putt, etc. They have nothing at all to do with being able to walk 18 holes.

The Harrison Bergeron story was one that made a big impact on me, especially when I first read it a long time ago. I had spent a lot of my public school career in gifted programs and had to think a lot about what are the good and bad things about giftedness, its identification and its nurturing. I do not see how allowing an exceptional athlete to compete against other exceptional athletes by making a simple accomodation for him that does not give him any meaningful competitive advantage lessens what is good and noble about excellence in sport.

DanT
01-17-2001, 08:31 PM
Hey Kyle,

By the way, have great fun in Spain. I've never met anyone who didn't love it. If I ever make it to Europe, that's one place I definitely would like to check out. (So far the only foreign city I've been in is beautiful St. Saint Marie, Ontario ;) ).

administrator
01-17-2001, 08:34 PM
DanT,

If you make it out in the next year or so.... you have a place to stay in Barcelona!

(This goes for any of the Planeteers!)

--Kyle

~Hoping for some visits from some Chiefs Fans!

DanT
01-17-2001, 08:38 PM
Kyle,

Awesome, I'll keep that in mind.

Be sure to scout Barcelona's NFLE team for us!

Raiderhader
01-17-2001, 08:40 PM
I hope he loses. Nothing against the guy or golf (wether it is or isn't a sport), but the PGA is a private organization and the federal government has no right making the rules for a private organization. And I think they will probally rule that way because that is the way they ruled (rightfuly so) on the Boy Scouts.

administrator
01-17-2001, 08:44 PM
raiderhader,

Damnit! I agree with you on this one... wonders never cease!


DanT,

I believe Maslowski played for the Dragons last year so hopefully the Chiefs can find some more players like him in Barcelona!



--Kyle

~Unofficial Chiefs Scout in Europe

Raiderhader
01-17-2001, 08:54 PM
Kyle,
No kiddin'? Wow that is something that you don't see every day. So tell me, how does it feel to be on the right side for once?:D

administrator
01-17-2001, 09:03 PM
raiderhader,

All of a sudden, I feel dirty! ;)


--Kyle

Raiderhader
01-17-2001, 09:06 PM
Kyle,
LOL! Oh c'mon. It can't be that bad, can it?:)

Pitt Gorilla
01-17-2001, 11:10 PM
Hey Raderhader, maybe the PGA shouldn't let white people play golf. How about lefties? How about short people? Letting them make up their own rules, plausible or not, just doesn't jive. That's what laws like the ADA were written for.

5decadechiefsfan
01-17-2001, 11:41 PM
Let the young man use a cart. Make an exception in his case. He will someday lose that leg. It's pathetic that Tour players would be against him...it's even worse when former PGA players chime in. Many PGA Tour players would prefer to walk even if offered a cart...there COULD be a competetive advantage for a NON-handicapped player using a cart if it the weather was brutally hot or humid, but even with the cart Martin experiences pretty severe pain. The players on tour should let him play and use a cart. The players against him are extremely selfish and unworthy of any fan's adulation.

Mile High Mania
01-18-2001, 10:41 AM
I think this is insane... I'd like to know what the PGA would do if Tiger Woods were involved in a car wreck that resulted in him receiving a hip and knee replacement, then as he mounts his comeback he realizes that walking is too painful and a cart would benefit him.

Would the PGA say "No, Tiger... you just have to retire, you can't use a cart b/t holes"?

I seriously f'in doubt it!

Yes, Martin's situation is a little different than the Woods scenario, but the underlying themes are the same.

Plus, did you know this ... at the recent PGA event in Hawaii there is a large hill/incline on one of the holes and the golfers were given the option of riding a CART up the hill to the next hole. Hmmm... unless, it was the size of Everest, why couldn't they just walk?

http://cwm.ragesofsanity.com/s/icw/028.gif

Joe Seahawk
01-18-2001, 10:49 AM
I think the PGA should make an exception in this case.

With that being said, I also hope the Supreme court overturns the earlier ruling that he should be able to use a cart...Confused?

I'll try to clarify, I think the PGA deserves the right to make it's own rules, but I also think in this case Martin would NOT gain a competitive advantage...
The PGA should be allowed to make an exception, rather than forced to accept a disabled golfer......Joe
hope's that makes sense to somebody.

Iowanian
01-18-2001, 11:13 AM
oops DP

[Edited by Iowanian on 01-18-2001 at 11:21 AM]

Iowanian
01-18-2001, 11:20 AM
This reminds me of an Old Stone's song...."you can't always get what you want"

We can't all be professional athletes..physical limitations stop those dreams every day...

I wanted to be a true athlete, a porn star, but wasn't lucky enough to be born with a pringle can.....although I may wish to play professionally, I have accepted my role as an ameture and play a hole every time I can:)


Some of the fattest loads I know are golfers..they couldn't do A pushup, and are decent golfers...its an excuse to get away from a nagging wife and drink beer...

Instead of carts which tear up the fairways..I propose that they get teams of midgets to carry the golfers around on the bamboo carts like Myan chieftans....I'd watch golf on TV if they had that... :D

58Forever
01-18-2001, 11:46 AM
great point Mile High...Tiger would get some rules changed...but that still doesn't mean it is right...Casey Martin or Tiger Woods, shouldn't matter, they should not be allowed to ride unless, as Joe Seahawk says, the PGA decides they should...this should not be a court issue...

The Senior PGA allows players to ride, that is there rule because they realize that older golfers may need assistance because of injury, etc...Jack Nicklaus had hip replacements and was allowed to ride...but if Joe Blow had hip replacements he too would be allowed to ride...this is the Senior PGA...

Let the PGA decide this and not the courts...

Hey, and Mile High, thanks for not flipping me off anymore... :)

DanT
01-18-2001, 12:00 PM
Interestingly, one of the greatest golfers of all-time did suffer a devastating accident when his car smashed into a Grayhound Bus. Both of his legs were shattered. Many thought his career was over. Within 2 years, this golfer came back to win the 1950 US Open, despite the pain and difficulties his legs gave him. I'm sure a lot of you know who I'm talking about. Here's a link to a golf magazine article describing a moment from that tournament, #1 in their list of 50 great moments in US Open History:

http://www.golfonline.com/news/golfweek/1998/usopen/50moments/01.html

[Edited by DanT on 01-18-2001 at 12:05 PM]

Clint in Wichita
01-18-2001, 12:43 PM
I can make field goals on a regular basis. No, really! Unfortunately, my leg is quite a bit weaker than the average NFL kicker, and I don't have time to work out.

Unless the NFL starts allowing field goals to be attempted with a Nerf football, they are discriminating against me and all other aspiring field goal kickers that are burdened with weak kicking legs.

One of my buddies is a blind guy who wants to be a commercial airline pilot. He'll be filing a lawsuit against the FAA any day now.

Mile High Mania
01-18-2001, 01:33 PM
http://cwm.ragesofsanity.com/s/ruinkai/tool.gif


Well, I knew that Clint would take it to the extreme.
Those situations don't even compare. Martin can do everything that Tiger can do with a golf club ... he just can't physically walk from hole to hole. If he was a 300 lb tub of crap, I could expect this reaction.

Yes, I knew there was a legend that did that in the 1950s. Great for him. My scenario put Tiger in a situation where he could NOT walk from hole to hole. He is worth too much $$ and too much PR for the PGA, so I gurandamntee you that they would let him drive a cart.

[Edited by Mile High Mania on 01-18-2001 at 01:35 PM]

Bob Dole
01-18-2001, 02:37 PM
There's actually some precedent for your legally blind friend, Clint. He should probably make sure the suit ends up in the 9th Circuit, though.

And Bob Dole retracts Bob Dole's earlier statements about Martin. It's obvious that the cart does <b>not</b> give him any significant advantage, or he would not have missed the cut in 15 of his 29 tournaments in 2000.

58Forever
01-18-2001, 03:02 PM
Hogan was nearly killed in that crash, and yes he came back to be a champion...but had he not been able to walk from hole to hole, just strike the ball, would he have been given and special considerations?...I doubt it...and knowing Hogan, he probably wouldn't have asked for any...

Martin is disabled from a congenital problem...should this be treated differently?...maybe...but the court should not be the one to decide this...some interesting quotes in the KC Star from some of the justices...second page bottom...

Riding a cart gives a golfer the advantage of not being as tired as his competitors...golf is a mentally challenging game and, although some may not believe it, physically challenging as well...if one guy is exhausted and the other guy is not...who gets the advantage...

Maybe Martin missed those cuts because he just isn't that good...

I have an idea http://cwm.ragesofsanity.com/s/cwm/thinkerg.gif maybe they can let Martin ride alternate nines...

[Edited by 58Forever on 01-18-2001 at 03:11 PM]

Iowanian
01-18-2001, 03:13 PM
maybe they should uy martin a scooter...therefore he'd be pushing with his good leg while the others walk..resting his bad leg..and everyone would live happily ever after..

maybe they should let him put with a pool stick to help him make the cut more often? He could be the "tigger" for persons with disabuilities.

ROYC75
01-18-2001, 03:29 PM
When I was younger,played all the time.If I would ride,I would shoot 4-6 shots higher than when I walked! By walking,my arms and legs stayed loose and it gave me more time to think about my shots or the shot I just hit! By riding,I was always in a hurry to get to my ball,had to much time to wander around and not stay competitive.

Now this is just me...some of you do have a point about being stronger in the later holes by riding! Man if I walked now...I would get to the 9th hole,lest alone the 19th! 19th has always been my favorite hole!

58Forever
01-18-2001, 03:39 PM
Royc75, when I walk I find the same thing to be true...my tempo is better, I don't rush, I have time to think about my next shot, I stay loose...but by time I hit the 16th hole, especially in hot weather, I'm dying...now if I have a good round going...I have to really bear down and concentrate...if I don't I just basically play out the last holes...the best part about riding is being able to take your clubs to your car after the round....

Baby Lee
01-18-2001, 04:33 PM
A lot of people have posed hypotheticals with varying degrees of credulity. I hope this is one that is reasonable.

What if there were a golfer with the exact same skills as Casey Martin, and he could walk the course and perform without problems. Only, this golfer suffers from panic attacks. The notion that he is the center of attention in a large crowd induces asthma-like symptoms and triggers his autonomic nervous system. Should the US District courts order the PGA to allow him to compete on a deserted course, with his scores recorded by a single, unobtrusive, observer?

Remember, the Court in Martin found as a matter of FACT, notwithstanding the PGA's representations to the contrary, that walking is not an intrinsic aspect of the game. This basically means my question is; should the Court have liberty to find as a matter of FACT that observation by a crowd is not an intrinsic aspect either?

[Edited by JC-Johnny on 01-18-2001 at 04:37 PM]

Mile High Mania
01-18-2001, 04:35 PM
I don't think he receives any advantage by riding the cart, if you listen to him or at least to those that watch him getting in and out of the cart, he still has trouble with the leg. So, I don't think the other golfers should be worried about him being more rested.

The damn guy can play golf and he plays it well... he can do everything except walk long distances.

Here's a solution... if the other golfers feel that the cart gives him advantage, along with damaging the integrity of the game, and they really want him to play without the cart - maybe before each of them tees off at the first hole they should take a direct hit in the knee with a 9 iron from their caddies!

That way, ALL of them will be at the same disadvantage!
Yeah, that's the ticket...

Mile High Mania
01-18-2001, 04:38 PM
Ok, your going a bit far with the "panic attack" theory. Obviously, that couldn't happen unless the guy has done nothing but play and practice on deserted courses for his entire life.

There's no way that anyone could reach the level of the PGA without having already spent a considerable amount of time playing the game on crowded courses.

So, that point is moot. Nice try, but use your noodle.

[Edited by Mile High Mania on 01-18-2001 at 04:40 PM]

Baby Lee
01-18-2001, 04:47 PM
FYI noodlehead. There are a number of athletes whose careers were cut short by panic attacks. Players on team sports, and I seem to recall some in track and field who could still perform the athletic feats required of them, but could not face the throng.

And I don't know about you, but I have never had more than 3-4 people [ie., my group] observe me playing. Not exactly roving crowds of observers at the country club, city park, or driving range.

And also, my question centered on the power the Court finding as a matter of fact what is and isn't intrinsic to an organized sport.

KCWolfman
01-18-2001, 05:01 PM
Dan - You stated "Golf is a sport and reasonable accomodations should be made to allow Casey Martin to play"

Well, Basketball is a sport and special accomodations should be made for me to play. It is not my fault that I am vertically challenged. Perhaps a hoop could be set at 6 foot for me, and the standard height for the rest of the NBA?

KCWolfman
01-18-2001, 05:03 PM
Brad - And maybe we can ask those guys that have the unfair advantage of height against me to crawl on their knees when they play....

Mile High Mania
01-18-2001, 05:06 PM
Russ, I'm kinda shocked at your response.

Martin isn't asking to change the rules of the game of golf. He's not asking to change the equipment, balls, contours of the course...

Is "walking" from hole to hole really a part of the game and will allowing him to ride a cart really bastardize the integrity of the game? No...

It's not like the guy can't hit his driver and he's asking the PGA to allow him to hit from the women's tees. Geez.

Raiderhader
01-18-2001, 08:16 PM
Originally posted by Pitt Gorilla
Hey Raderhader, maybe the PGA shouldn't let white people play golf. How about lefties? How about short people? Letting them make up their own rules, plausible or not, just doesn't jive. That's what laws like the ADA were written for.

Pitt,
I suppose while we are at it women should be allowed to join a private men's club. Or we should even allow them in the NFL. Were does it stop?
Government only has the right to involve themselves in a private organization's affairs if they are doing something illegal. If you give government an inch they will take a mile. And besides as I stated, the SC will probaly rule in favor for the PGA as they did for the Boy Scouts. If they don't then it will be said that they sided with the Boy Scouts because they are homophobes.

TexN
01-18-2001, 09:37 PM
Can't you crazy people see that Casey Martin almost certainly gets as tired as any nonhandicapped walking player.

The NFL analogies don't hold water because walking in a golf tournament doesn't directly affect your ability to score. Scoring in golf, unlike football, does not depend on your ability to run quickly.

Casey Martin can play golf well enough to compete on the PGA tour. And if you think he has an unfair advantage because he is less tired than the rest of the field...you need to share the stuff.

Let him play. What's the BFD.

TexN

TexN
01-18-2001, 09:38 PM
Women on the other hand.

Well, they would just get in the way.

TexN

Raiderhader
01-18-2001, 09:48 PM
TexN,
that is a bit of a double standard isn't? Not to mention sexist. And the NFL analogy does work because it is a private orgiznation. As as for What's the BFD, it is the government writing the rules for a private organization. I have nothing personal against Martin, and if the PGA wanted to bend their rules for him that would be fine with me. But the government doing it for them is not.

[Edited by raiderhader on 01-18-2001 at 09:55 PM]

Pitt Gorilla
01-19-2001, 12:41 AM
Raderhader, check out the ADA. It is LEGALLY binding. I wouldn't mind women in a men's club. Actually, I find the thought very inviting. If a woman ran a 4.1 40, was 6 foot 5, and could flat out catch, you'd allow her on the Chiefs' roster as well. I mean, she doesn't even have to be that good; She just has to be good enough to occupy one of the roster spots on an NFL team. Dude, if you don't like the ladies, that's YOUR buisness. I just don't think they should be discriminated against in any way.

Mark M
01-19-2001, 09:12 AM
A couple of things here:

Wolf--
Your height has nothing to do with being able to play in the NBA. Mugsy Bogues (sp?) was 5'3". You must have the skills, as he did, to play. So please stop trying to use that analogy.

raiderhader--
Tell me what rule in the NFL says that women can't play? I would've taken Mia Hamm over Elliott any day of the week.

People, I agree that the SC is trying to do something questionable. But when there is a LAW that says something is illegal, whether or not it is a private organization, it is still illegal. The KKK is a private organization, but if they go lynch someone are they not guilty of murder even though, according to their rules, its okay?

MM
~~Wondering how the KKK analogy will be taken.
http://cwm.ragesofsanity.com/s/net5/target1.gif


[Edited by Mark M on 01-19-2001 at 09:54 AM]

DanT
01-19-2001, 11:49 AM
Hey Mile High Mania,

The Wednesday Kansas City Star had a story about Jim Eisenreich's latest award:

http://www.kcstar.com/item/pages/sports.pat,sports/37750f7d.116,.html

He was a major league whose career was interrupted for over 3 years due to the onset of Tourette's Syndrome, a neurological disorder which severely limited his ability to perform in front of crowd. Many neurological and neurobiological disorders have adult onset, so JC~Johnny's hypothetical situation really isn't all that fantastic or unrealistic.

[Edited by DanT on 01-19-2001 at 11:51 AM]

Mile High Mania
01-19-2001, 12:00 PM
There's still a disconnect somewhere with all of these hypothetical scenarios... comparing Martin's situation to those of Russ being too short for the NBA, Clint not having a strong enough leg to be an NFL kicker and JC having panic attacks are not the same at all.

Panic attacks or Tourette's Syndrome definitely affect a players ability to perform the normal motions of his game, ie - inability to pitch or perform like an athlete under any normal circumstances. However, this is not the same as Martin's inability to walk an 18 hole course. Whether he walks or rides, he's still swinging the clubs and hitting the balls in the same manner and under the same rules as every other golfer in the universe.

Martin's disability does not affect his drives, chip shots, putts or any of that. If his disability affected his ability to swing a golf club normally like anyone else and he was asking for a change so that he could compete, then I would understand.

Gaz
01-19-2001, 12:24 PM
Either you allow all competitors to use a cart, or you allow none of the competitors to use a cart, regardless of their physical limitations.

xoxo~
gaz
has little patience for special dispensation.

Baby Lee
01-19-2001, 01:10 PM
A person with Tourettes or panic attacks can perform the normal motions of the game. In fact, these disabilities are often paired with some form of OCD, which can be steered into a practice discipline.

[for instance, Machmud Abdul-Rauf [I have no idea how close I am on the spelling] had Tourettes and OCD and played in the NBA. His condition manifested in expessive blinking and he often took 30-45 minutes to tie his shoes before the game, lacing and re-lacing 10-12 times. But he also practiced 3s obsessively and had a pretty good run as a 3-point slinging guard].

However, with panic attacks you can't perform in front of a crowd. I see no more judicial activism in Court finding as a matter of fact that a crowd of onlookers is not intinsic to the sport as finding that walking the course is not an intrinsic part of the sport. If your comfortable with the Court ordering an accomodation in one case, you should be comfortable with the court ordering an accomodation in the other.

DanT
01-19-2001, 01:15 PM
Mile High Mania,

Yeah, I agree with your general point of view (that accomodations that don't threaten the essential integrity of the sport should be made), I was just pointing out that the particular case of panic attacks could be something that becomes an issue for an exceptional athlete well after he or she progresses through little-league, high school and even professional developmental leagues. You and I are both taking a pragmatic approach to this issue.

DanT
01-19-2001, 01:25 PM
Hey JC~Johnny,

Your mention of Abdul-Rauf reminds me of an interesting book on neurology and sports called, "Why Michael Couldn't Hit And Other Tales of the Neurology of Sports" by neurologist Harold Klawans, M.D.

http://www.powells.com/cgi-bin/biblio?inkey=1-0380730413-4.

(The title alludes to Michael Jordan's unsuccesful pro baseball career.) The author talks about Abdul-Rauf's case and some other interesting ones. It's an interesting read.

I agree that it's very unlikely that any court would find the presence of a crowd to be extrinsic to a spectator sport. Hell, most people would accept that a lot of what distinguishes professional golfers, bowlers and billiards players from the rest of us is not their particular techniques, it's their ability to perform those techniques over and over again at a high-level while under scrutiny from others.

[Edited by DanT on 01-19-2001 at 01:50 PM]

TexN
01-19-2001, 05:46 PM
raiderhader

I have to agree with you. My criticism is directed toward the PGA. I don't suggest, or support, a government mandate, and I don't think the ADA issues apply.

I am just giving my opinion on the issue of wheather or not I THINK he should be allowed to play.

And again, I would like to point out that the football (and most other) analogies are completely off base.

The comment about women stands.

TexN

Raiderhader
01-19-2001, 08:47 PM
If a woman ran a 4.1 40, was 6 foot 5, and could flat out catch, you'd allow her on the Chiefs' roster as well.

Pitt,
actually I wouldn't.

I wouldn't mind women in a men's club. Actually, I find the thought very inviting.

Pitt,
I have a big problem with it because men can't be themselves around women. You never know when you are going to be charged with sexual harrasment (for as little a thing as looking at them "in the wrong way"). The reason they have these clubs is so that guys can get away from time to time.


raiderhader--
Tell me what rule in the NFL says that women can't play? I would've taken Mia Hamm over Elliott any day of the week.

Mark,
I never said that there was a rule. I was using that as an example of how these things can go to far.

And again, I would like to point out that the football (and most other) analogies are completely off base.

The comment about women stands.

TexN,
the NFL analogy does work because I used it as an example of a private organization that could have its rules tampered with by the courts to allow someone that the NFL doesn't wan't.
As for the comment about women, I hope you didn't think I was chastising you because I wasn't. More or less being a smart alleck. Trust me, most women I know would tell you that I am no friend to the female population. http://cwm.ragesofsanity.com/s/3dlil/wink.gif

I agree totaly with Gaz in post #60.

KCWolfman
01-19-2001, 10:10 PM
Brad - Sorry, any rules changes in any competition should be across the board, not for any individual....

Any of you who support Martin's action are welcome to this answer, please:

Name one solitary male professional televised sport that allows only certain players advantages not directly related to the game due to their disabilities.

ENDelt260
06-01-2003, 08:27 PM
I feel this thread needs some attention.

Logical
06-01-2003, 08:29 PM
Originally posted by ENDelt260
I feel this thread needs some attention.

Attenshun!

NaptownChief
06-01-2003, 08:30 PM
Originally posted by ENDelt260
I feel this thread needs some attention.


Why?

JOhn
06-01-2003, 08:30 PM
Originally posted by ENDelt260
I feel this thread needs some attention. lonelyness sad thingy

ENDelt260
06-01-2003, 08:34 PM
Originally posted by NaptownChief



Why?

People have been dodging KCWolfman's comments since January of 2001! It's time to pay the piper.