Kramers "Victims" seek apology or money??

[Deberg_1990]

I can understand them wanting an apology but now they want money??? Come on.....



http://apnews.myway.com/article/20061124/D8LJNIB00.html

LOS ANGELES (AP) - Two men who say they were insulted by actor-comedian Michael Richards during his racist rant at a comedy club want a personal apology and maybe some money, their lawyer said Friday.

The men, Frank McBride and Kyle Doss, said they were part of a group of about 20 people who had gathered at West Hollywood's Laugh Factory to celebrate a friend's birthday. According to their attorney, Gloria Allred, they were ordering drinks when Richards berated them for interrupting his act.

When one of their group replied that he wasn't funny, Richards launched into a string of obscenities and repeatedly used the n-word. A video cell phone captured the outburst.

Richards, who played Jerry Seinfeld's wacky neighbor Kramer on the TV sitcom "Seinfeld," made a nationally televised apology on David Letterman's "Late Night" show earlier this week. He has since apologized to civil rights leaders the Rev. Jesse Jackson and the Rev. Al Sharpton.

But Allred complained Friday that he "has not apologized to his victims directly, face to face, man to man."

Richards' publicist said his client wants to apologize to both men, who are black, but hasn't been able to locate them.

Allred, speaking by phone from Colorado, said Richards should meet McBride and Doss in front of a retired judge to "acknowledge his behavior and to apologize to them" and allow the judge to decide on monetary compensation.

"It's not enough to say 'I'm sorry,'" she said.

She did not mention a specific figure, but pitched the idea as a way for the comic to avoid a lawsuit.

"Our clients were vulnerable," Allred said. "He went after them. He singled them out and he taunted them, and he did it in a closed room where they were captive."

The video of Richards' outburst shows several people getting up and walking out as he shouts at the audience.

Richards' publicist said the comic wasn't considering any demand for payment. "He's not dealing with that," Howard Rubenstein said. "He wants to apologize to them directly and then see what happens."

[Ebolapox]

that's bullsh*t--no WAY should he pay them one red cent--

[morphius]

I read that earlier. I guess give them their ticket money back and send their asses on the way.

[JBucc]

I could see wanting a refund but nothing more than that.

[Ebolapox]

ya know, this is classic american society--OMG, someone wronged me, oh waaaah, I need money to feel better...

oh god, I spilled hot coffee that said HOT COFFEE on the lid on my lap, I need money to feel better!!

oh god, I'm a dumbass who smoked three packs a day for fifty years and have lung cancer now--I need millions to feel better!!

oh god, I need money because, one hundred and fifty years ago, my ancestors were slaves (although I drive a nice car and hate on whitey all I want)--I need restitution and affirmative action!

oh god, our kids are fat because of... fast food and no exercise! waaaah, we need money!!

oh god, the big bad kramer man called us a racial slur because we heckled him... waaaah, we need money!!

[stumppy]

I figured this was coming.

Not suprised at all.

[Cntrygal]

IF they had gotten a PERSONAL apology they would have wanted a PUBLIC apology. The basically just want MONEY.

[redbrian]

Here is what he should do claim he was hopped up on drugs and booze, check into a rehab center and tell them to get stuffed.

[morphius]

I figured this was coming.

Not suprised at all.
As soon as I saw them giving interviews on TV I figured they might start seeing dollar signs.

[HolmeZz]

I don't have a problem with them suing.

[stumppy]

I don't have a problem with them suing.


Is it OK if Richards sues them ?

They were harasing (sp?) him.

[morphius]

Is it OK if Richards sues them ?

They were harasing (sp?) him.
Counter sue saying that they caused him mental anguish and sue them for all the money he will lose because nobody will give him a job in his field now.

[stumppy]

Counter sue saying that they caused him mental anguish and sue them for all the money he will lose because nobody will give him a job in his field now.


ROFL


Is that what they call poetic justice ? :D

[HolmeZz]

Is it OK if Richards sues them ?

They were harasing (sp?) him.

You nor I know what anyone said to Richards. Furthermore, they paid for their tickets I assume. Richards is working for the Laugh Factory and has to act professionally. It's the same as if someone was booing an athlete at a sporting event and the player went up to them and started a fight.

[morphius]

You nor I know what anyone said to Richards. Furthermore, they paid for their tickets I assume. Richards is working for the Laugh Factory and has to act professionally. It's the same as if someone was booing an athlete at a sporting event and the player went up to them and started a fight.
No, that would be a real assault.

[HolmeZz]

No, that would be a real assault.

It wouldn't have to be physical.

[Ebolapox]

You nor I know what anyone said to Richards. Furthermore, they paid for their tickets I assume. Richards is working for the Laugh Factory and has to act professionally. It's the same as if someone was booing an athlete at a sporting event and the player went up to them and started a fight.

here's a relevent example: how about the guy who threw the cup at ron artest in Detroit? sure, artest then went into the seats and started swinging (he subsequently, due to his violence, was punished severely by the league)--but the guy who threw the cup had his season tickets revoked and, if memory serves, also had criminal charges brought up on him...

I realize that in 'kramer's' case, there was no violence at hand--but if one punishes richards for his part in it, the hecklers should face some sort of punishment as well

[FAX]

Hmmm. If Chris Rock had said the same thing, would this have made the papers?

If one of Richards' major screws were not loose, I would suggest that perhaps he should not have apologized and gone instead with the Lenny Bruce defense.

FAX

[HolmeZz]

That's not relevant because it was never physical. It would've been a different case if someone had hit Richards with something.

[Ebolapox]

eh, guess I'm too young to know what the lenny bruce defense is (though I DO know who he is, that's a plus I guess)--care to fill me in, Mr. Fax?

[HolmeZz]

Hmmm. If Chris Rock had said the same thing, would this have made the papers?

If one of Richards' major screws were not loose, I would suggest that perhaps he should not have apologized and gone instead with the Lenny Bruce defense.

FAX

I doubt Chris Rock would've pointed out the black guys in his audience, called them ******s, talked about what they'd do to them 50 years ago, and then told them about how they shouldn't be interrupting the white man.

It wasn't as if Richards just said '******' once and that was it. He went overboard and harped on it for a while.

[Ebolapox]

ya know, you can call it irrelevent if you wish--I realize the situations are apples and oranges

however, the situation would have NEVER started had the guys not been heckling the guy in the first place--as my dad always used to tell me, it takes two to tango

[FAX]

eh, guess I'm too young to know what the lenny bruce defense is (though I DO know who he is, that's a plus I guess)--care to fill me in, Mr. Fax?

Basically a f*ck you with some first amendment stuff thrown in, Mr. H5N1.

FAX

[Cntrygal]

I like how the hecklers weren't guilty of anything but coming in after the show started and was attempting to order drinks and that caused Richards to go off on them.

[Ebolapox]

heh--thanks, fax

that's right--from what I've read, lenny bruce was really the first comedian to really step on anybody's toes and was always in trouble with the law in regard to his 'language'--it's interesting, as most of the modern 'famous' comedians count lenny bruce as one of their biggest influences

[stumppy]

You nor I know what anyone said to Richards. Furthermore, they paid for their tickets I assume. Richards is working for the Laugh Factory and has to act professionally. It's the same as if someone was booing an athlete at a sporting event and the player went up to them and started a fight.


I can see where this is going....or already gone.



Just put me down for "Homey don't play that game"
and we can go our seperate ways.


By the way, thanks for your contribution to 'what's wrong with society'.

[FAX]

I doubt Chris Rock would've pointed out the black guys in his audience, called them ******s, talked about what they'd do to them 50 years ago, and then told them about how they shouldn't be interrupting the white man.

It wasn't as if Richards just said '******' once and that was it. He went overboard and harped on it for a while.

Hmmm. I see your point, Mr. HolmeZz, and I certainly don't dispute your opinion other than to say that it's more than possible that, had Chris Rock done exactly what Richards did in front of a black audience, it would likely have been considered ironically funny.

FAX

[HolmeZz]

I can see where this is going....or already gone.



Just put me down for "Homey don't play that game"
and we can go our seperate ways.


By the way, thanks for your contribution to 'what's wrong with society'.

I'm not going anywhere with it. Race is pretty irrelevant here. It could've been a black comedian and white guys in the audience. That doesn't change that the comedian acted unprofessionally and took it too far.

As for "what's wrong with society", that would be Richards' display.

[FAX]

heh--thanks, fax

that's right--from what I've read, lenny bruce was really the first comedian to really step on anybody's toes and was always in trouble with the law in regard to his 'language'--it's interesting, as most of the modern 'famous' comedians count lenny bruce as one of their biggest influences

He was the first "shock" comedian, Mr. H5N1. Sort of a heroin addicted, beatnik, Jewish, anti-Will Rogers ... paving the way for all who wish to say unpopular words into a microphone.

He fought for the little guy who likes to curse and screw. And, he fought well. One interesting thing is that he was a friend of "Tiny Tim", the Tiptoe Through The Tulips guy.

A great American story.

FAX

[Ebolapox]

heh--damn, I apparently need a WPI editer to edit my posts--using the word really twice within six words?!? jeesh

[Ebolapox]

and I'd read that about bruce--the comedians that I grew up listening to (thanks to my dad) like carlin, pryor, and eddie murphy (back when he still did stand up) only have a job because of lenny bruce pretty much

[headsnap]

She did not mention a specific figure, but pitched the idea as a way for the comic to avoid a lawsuit.
Blackmail!!!



no pun intended...






or was there? :hmmm:

[Chiefaholic]

What if it was a black comedian refering to a white person as a "white cracker mother f*****"? I see this all the time on TV and it's socially accepted to make fun of white people w/o worry of consequences.

[Chiefaholic]

That being said, I think there should be some sort of consequence to Kramers actions (just not a rediculous amount of money). However, there should be consequences to ALL racial comments to comedians of ALL races as well.

[dj56dt58]

Hmmm. If Chris Rock had said the same thing, would this have made the papers?



FAX
No shit...black comedians call white people crackers and shit all the time

[morphius]

That being said, I think there should be some sort of consequence to Kramers actions (just not a rediculous amount of money). However, there should be consequences to ALL racial comments to comedians of ALL races as well.
I don't think I agree. He is free to say what he wants, just as now people are free not to hire him or give him any work.

[kcxiv]

THey were both wrong, and both parties should have appologized . Then both should just move on.

[Pitt Gorilla]

Uh, I don't think so. No payout for you!

[FAX]

THey were both wrong, and both parties should have appologized . Then both should just move on.

Agreed, Mr. kcxiv. President Bush should get them together to share a nice box of Triscuits and some pimento cheese spread.

FAX

[headsnap]

That being said, I think there should be some sort of consequence to Kramers actions (just not a rediculous amount of money). However, there should be consequences to ALL racial comments to comedians of ALL races as well.
what a boring ****ing world that would be.




How about getting over a 'word.' Our differences are what makes us great.

[Dartgod]

You nor I know what anyone said to Richards. Furthermore, they paid for their tickets I assume. Richards is working for the Laugh Factory and has to act professionally. It's the same as if someone was booing an athlete at a sporting event and the player went up to them and started a fight.
I'm not going anywhere with it. Race is pretty irrelevant here. It could've been a black comedian and white guys in the audience. That doesn't change that the comedian acted unprofessionally and took it too far.

As for "what's wrong with society", that would be Richards' display.
Based on this logic, Jake Plummer owes a few thousand Bronco fans some money.

[HolmeZz]

Jake Plummer owes the Broncos some money.

[Nightwish]

An apology and a refund is fine. Anything more than that, and it sets a very bad precedent.

By the way, Gloria Allred has been needing a good, hard f*cking for a long time.

[Simplex3]

Here is what he should do claim he was hopped up on drugs and booze, check into a rehab center and tell them to get stuffed.
Booyah! LMAO

[Bob Dole]

That being said, I think there should be some sort of consequence to Kramers actions (just not a rediculous amount of money). However, there should be consequences to ALL racial comments to comedians of ALL races as well.

You're a loon.

[HolmeZz]

Yeah, this had nothing at all to do with comedic racism, nor should it have any effect on it. There's quite a fine line between going for a laugh and doing what Richards did, which was completely derogatory.

[Braincase]

I guess his damage control team has already arranged for Richards to meet with Jesse Jackson and Al Sharpton.

You think he's gonna have any money left after meeting with those two?

[Demonpenz]

the shows i see in kc the white people make fun of blacks and vice versa. As long as it's funny it's everyone is having a good time. Kramer was obvouisly meaning to be hateful while most black comedians ususally don't say cracker as hateful. Just that we are dorks (which is itself worn out) we get it black people don't pay their bills on time, mexcians drive with too many people in their cars, silly white people pay their bills on time and dance funny and the workers at modot are lazy har har)

[Halfcan]

I am offended by this thread and want to be reimbursed for my pain and suffering. $10 ought to do it-$5 if you pay in beer.

[Mecca]

I think Rush should have to pay me for subjecting me to their music.

[Halfcan]

I think Rush should have to pay me for subjecting me to their music.

LOL you should say your prayers tonight and thank God for Rush-I know I do.

Rush is the meaning to life.

[Gravedigger]

The reason they want money is because Gloria Allred is their lawyer. She is a lawyer who doesn't do it for justice but she does it to get paid, she just uses the system to make her look like a public avenger. If you watch the movie Rat Race they even make fun of her in there, with her starring as herself. She's the Drew Rosenhaus of her field, all about the money and as fake as a playboy bunnies breasts.

[Sure-Oz]

Man, people will find any way to get money. They opened themselves to get heckled back, Richards took it too far, but he shouldnt have to pay any more than what those tickets and an apology cost.

[slappyhappy]

If they get money for this...

I'm moving to Mexico!

[Chief Chief]

"...in front of a retired judge..." (RETIRED???)

That implies they've already handpicked a judge who they know will approve a large settlement.

[Lonewolf Ed]

ya know, this is classic american society--OMG, someone wronged me, oh waaaah, I need money to feel better...

oh god, I spilled hot coffee that said HOT COFFEE on the lid on my lap, I need money to feel better!!

oh god, I'm a dumbass who smoked three packs a day for fifty years and have lung cancer now--I need millions to feel better!!

oh god, I need money because, one hundred and fifty years ago, my ancestors were slaves (although I drive a nice car and hate on whitey all I want)--I need restitution and affirmative action!

oh god, our kids are fat because of... fast food and no exercise! waaaah, we need money!!

oh god, the big bad kramer man called us a racial slur because we heckled him... waaaah, we need money!!

Well, my great grandfather on my mother's side of the family was a serf in Denmark back in the 1800s. So, if anyone disses me over it, I'll go Viking on their ass! :p

[Lonewolf Ed]

An apology and a refund is fine. Anything more than that, and it sets a very bad precedent.

By the way, Gloria Allred has been needing a good, hard f*cking for a long time.

She may indeed need it, but I won't be the one to deliver it. I don't know how many dry years I'd have to endure before the thought of doing her was appealing.

[StcChief]

Give them back their money. or a free future comedy show, free two drink minimum.

Stop this Law suite abuse.

[Eleazar]

Any progress these hecklers might have helped America make in eliminating racism was undone the moment they asked for money.

[MahiMike]

I don't have a problem with them suing.

Thank you Johnnie Cochran. Now please sit down...

[Bwana]

The reason they want money is because Gloria Allred is their lawyer. She is a lawyer who doesn't do it for justice but she does it to get paid, she just uses the system to make her look like a public avenger. If you watch the movie Rat Race they even make fun of her in there, with her starring as herself. She's the Drew Rosenhaus of her field, all about the money and as fake as a playboy bunnies breasts.

Unfortunately, this seems to be the norm in today’s society. The legal system has become about nothing more than the all mighty buck, how much can Joe blow can screw Jim Blow out of and has derailed to the point where it is a complete joke in a lot of cases. This is just one more example.

[Buck]

They are who he THOUGHT THEY WERE. IF you wanna go ahead and CROWN EM THEN CROWN EM.

[KChiefs1]

Hecklers get paid for their services now?

[jspchief]

Since when is being insulted grounds for monetary compensation?

The entire premise is ridiculous.

[milkman]

Thank you Johnnie Cochran. Now please sit down...

If he called them names
You must support their claims

[ChiTown]

You got called a name, get over it already. You were never in danger, you were in a comedy club. You got a beef, don't go back to the club.

Racism? Is this their first time in a comedy club? LMFAO.

[Baby Lee]

ya know, this is classic american society--OMG, someone wronged me, oh waaaah, I need money to feel better...

oh god, I spilled hot coffee that said HOT COFFEE on the lid on my lap, I need money to feel better!!

oh god, I'm a dumbass who smoked three packs a day for fifty years and have lung cancer now--I need millions to feel better!!
Fortunate for them, all medical care is free. :rolleyes:

[Deberg_1990]

What i dont get is why these men think they deserve money over every other African American thats ever been insulted before by the N word??

Wrong as it was, its just words, not violence.....get over it.

[Al Czervik]

This is bullshit....
Its not against the law to be a racist.....see the KKK

I notice that the "victims" have not heckled a black comedian...

Wonder why???

[Easy 6]

Those two better just try to get as many paid interviews as they can while theres still hype surrounding this.

[boogblaster]

Had he said Spade would that be insulting....No...but it means the same....

[KChiefer]

Screw the money...Richards should have to be their butler.

[Deberg_1990]

How come nobody complains when Bryant Gumbel rants on about Whitey???

[Nightwish]

Had he said Spade would that be insulting...
True that it isn't quite as cutting (no pun intended) as the *N* word, but I am pretty sure most people consider calling a black person a "spade" to still be an insult, just as it would to call him a "coon" or any number of other names.

[Rudy tossed tigger's salad]

Im pretty sure the Laugh Factory offered everybody a refund. They shouldn't get shit

[HolmeZz]

You guys haven't made a legitimate comparison yet.

If you want a better example, I would make a sexual harrassment comparison. If a woman was the heckler, and then Richards went on a huge rant, with plenty of sexually suggestive things, and talked about how back in the day they would've raped her, I think you would see where that would be grounds for a lawsuit. It's just a matter of taking it too far.

[headsnap]

How come nobody complains when Bryant Gumbel rants on about Whitey???
Bryant isn't white? :eek:

[Nightwish]

You guys haven't made a legitimate comparison yet.

If you want a better example, I would make a sexual harrassment comparison. If a woman was the heckler, and then Richards went on a huge rant, with plenty of sexually suggestive things, and talked about how back in the day they would've raped her, I think you would see where that would be grounds for a lawsuit.Not so. Sexual harassment is about using sexuality for leverage, or using power for sex. I've seen comedians make sexually suggestive comments, sometimes very explicit, to female audience members many times. It's not grounds for a lawsuit. Now, if the comedian were to say, "Give me some, or I'll have your ass thrown out of here," that would be sexual harassment.

[HolmeZz]

Not so. Sexual harassment is about using sexuality for leverage, or using power for sex.

If you called a girl in your office a hooker and talked about her breasts, that's sexual harassment. And it doesn't fit either of your definitions.

[chiefs4me]

Since when is being insulted grounds for monetary compensation?

The entire premise is ridiculous.







if only it were, I would be rich off of this board alone.....LMAO

[Bwana]

You guys haven't made a legitimate comparison yet.

If you want a better example, I would make a sexual harrassment comparison. If a woman was the heckler, and then Richards went on a huge rant, with plenty of sexually suggestive things, and talked about how back in the day they would've raped her, I think you would see where that would be grounds for a lawsuit. It's just a matter of taking it too far.

Good Gawd.

LMAO

[Nightwish]

If you called a girl in your office a hooker and talked about her breasts, that's sexual harassment.Only if you're in a position of authority over her, and the comments contain the implication that a favorable response from her will lead to some kind of work reward, or that a negative response from her will lead to demotion or punishment. There's a big difference between the lay definition of sexual harassment (which is not grounds for a lawsuit) and the legal definition. Here's the legal definition:

sexual harassment n. unwanted sexual approaches (including touching, feeling, groping) and/or repeated unpleasant, degrading and/or sexist remarks directed toward an employee with the implied suggestion that the target's employment status, promotion or favorable treatment depend upon a positive response and/or "cooperation."

In the case you described, the woman would certainly have a case to take to their superiors to have the offending coworker fired or punished, for creating a hostile work environment, or for violating company policies that may exist regarding sexual advances or fraternization between employees. But as a sexual harassment claim in a court of law, it would probably get thrown out.

[HolmeZz]

Only if you're in a position of authority over her, and the comments contain the implication that a favorable response from her will lead to some kind of work reward, or that a negative response from her will lead to demotion or punishment. There's a big difference between the lay definition of sexual harassment (which is not grounds for a lawsuit) and the legal definition. Here's the legal definition:

sexual harassment n. unwanted sexual approaches (including touching, feeling, groping) and/or repeated unpleasant, degrading and/or sexist remarks directed toward an employee with the implied suggestion that the target's employment status, promotion or favorable treatment depend upon a positive response and/or "cooperation."

Umm, you don't have to be in a workplace for there to be sexual harassment. So the first part of the definition(about unwanted approaches/comments in general) is what would constitute sexual harassment.

[banyon]

Only if you're in a position of authority over her, and the comments contain the implication that a favorable response from her will lead to some kind of work reward, or that a negative response from her will lead to demotion or punishment. There's a big difference between the lay definition of sexual harassment (which is not grounds for a lawsuit) and the legal definition. Here's the legal definition:

sexual harassment n. unwanted sexual approaches (including touching, feeling, groping) and/or repeated unpleasant, degrading and/or sexist remarks directed toward an employee with the implied suggestion that the target's employment status, promotion or favorable treatment depend upon a positive response and/or "cooperation."

Your defnition is incomplete. Sexual harassment can also exist between co-workers who have no authority over each other if it is sufficient to create a "hostile work environment".

That being said, if the people wanting money want it for emotional distress, then allowing such a claim is excessive. More states should have a standard like Kansas, which requires $2k of actual medical bills from associated physical injury before a distress claim can be brought, IMO.

[Nightwish]

Umm, you don't have to be in a workplace for there to be sexual harassment. So the first part of the definition(about unwanted approaches/comments in general) is what would constitute sexual harassment.
That particular legal definition applies specifically to sexual harassment in the workplace, which is what your scenario describes. The language for defining sexual harassment in other places would differ slightly, but the one thing they all require is that there is an imposition of power and an implication of reward or punishment. Making sexually suggestive or derogatory remarks toward someone is certainly jackass behavior, but taken alone it isn't sexual harassment.

[Iowanian]

Its Kramer's first amendment right to say what he believes. It doesn't make him less of an asshole for saying it, but he didn't say anything that should get him sued.

[Bugeater]

These guys don't deserve shit IMO, but I'm sure Kramer is going to pay them off just to make this go away.

[Nightwish]

Your defnition is incomplete. Sexual harassment can also exist between co-workers who have no authority over each other if it is sufficient to create a "hostile work environment".I'll have to defer to your expertise, as you're a lawyer and I'm not. But I have done some study of the subtleties of sexual harassment, during the course of my psychology training. In the case you're talking about, if I'm not mistaken, it still falls within the definition provided above, with the implication being that the offending coworker wields some degree of control over the work environment of the female (in this scenario, though the reverse happens too), eg. this makes you uncomfortable, and I have the power to make it go away if you react favorably, or I can make it worse for you if you don't. There is still an imposition of power, although that power isn't established by pay grade or job heirarchy. It is imposed through repetition, such that one incident (as HolmeZz described) would not suffice to make a case for sexual harassment, but repetition in order to establish a pattern of such behavior could. At least, that's how it was interpreted by one of my psych professors.

To clarify, of course, what I'm talking about is illegal sexual harassment. What HolmeZz described, assuming it was just a single incident, is sexual harassment of the perfectly legal variety, because as one lawyer described it, "The first one is never illegal." It becomes illegal only after the imposition of power requirement is met, and after the victim expresses, at least once, their desire that the behavior stop.

[Iowanian]

I'm curious when it became Illegal to be offended?

[Nightwish]

I'm curious when it became Illegal to be offended?
Never, though the PC Police are doing their damndest to legislate sensitivity.

[HolmeZz]

I don't see this as a PC issue or a first amendment issue.

[Iowanian]

Then what "Issue" do you seeing this being, that would require monetary compesation?

Kramer should countersue for them interupting his show, causing his outburst and resulting in demonstrable finanical losses...while the victims have found their 15 minutes of fame.

[HolmeZz]

Then what "Issue" do you seeing this being, that would require monetary compesation?

I would call it a harassment issue. Like I said earlier, I think it'd be the same as an athlete doing something similar to a fan in attendance. The performer does have a certain responsibility with how he acts. It reflects not only him/herself, but who they're working for too. Fans have their own set of responsibilities(and I don't like the double standard either, but thats how it is), but unless something was said to Richards that was to the extent of what he said, I think he's ultimately at fault.

[Deberg_1990]

I would call it a harassment issue. Like I said earlier, I think it'd be the same as an athlete doing something similar to a fan in attendance. The performer does have a certain responsibility with how he acts. It reflects not only him/herself, but who they're working for too.


I think at comedy clubs its almost a given or acceptable that harrassment will occur at some point.

[HolmeZz]

I think at comedy clubs its almost a given or acceptable that harrassment will occur at some point.

In terms of heckling? Sure. I think we're talking about different degrees of harassment though. Your typical heckling should not elicit the kind of response Richards gave. It does depend on what was actually said to him, but at this point nothing has come out that it was anything out of the ordinary.

[Nightwish]

I would call it a harassment issue.But harassment is not always illegal. Just because it is harassing behavior, even egregious harassing behavior, doesn't automatically mean it is grounds for legal action. The only money these guys deserve is a refund of their ticket price. As Iowanian correctly pointed out, there is no law against offending or insulting someone.

[HolmeZz]

But harassment is not always illegal. Just because it is harassing behavior, even egregious harassing behavior, doesn't automatically mean it is grounds for legal action. The only money these guys deserve is a refund of their ticket price.

Well yeah, I should say I'm not of the thinking that this should be some big deal where they try and get big money out of it. I think that's where they might be trying to go with it, but just in terms of the incident, I didn't have a big problem with them filing a suit.

[banyon]

I would call it a harassment issue. Like I said earlier, I think it'd be the same as an athlete doing something similar to a fan in attendance. The performer does have a certain responsibility with how he acts. It reflects not only him/herself, but who they're working for too. Fans have their own set of responsibilities(and I don't like the double standard either, but thats how it is), but unless something was said to Richards that was to the extent of what he said, I think he's ultimately at fault.

At fault for what?

"Harassment" by itself is not a civil legal claim.

Are you suggesting that it is criminal and that they seek a restraining order against Kramer?

If they file a suit it will be for "intentional" or "negligent" "infliction of emotional distress".

[Nightwish]

Well yeah, I should say I'm not of the thinking that this should be some big deal where they try and get big money out of it. I think that's where they might be trying to go with it, but just in terms of the incident, I didn't have a big problem with them filing a suit.
I don't have a problem with them filing a suit. Anybody can file a suit for just about anything. But it would be frivolous, and would likely go nowhere. Contrary to what Gloria Allred claims, they were not a captive audience. The room was not locked, thus preventing them from leaving. They could have easily left and demanded a refund. Now, if they had done so, and the club refused to grant a refund when asked, then they might be able to make a case that they could not leave without tangible hardship. But in all likelihood, the club would have given them a refund if they'd asked for it.

[morphius]

I have to wonder if he could put in for a search warrant on their car and home to collect their CD collection just to show how repulsive they really find that word...

[HolmeZz]

I have to wonder if he could put in for a search warrant on their car and home to collect their CD collection just to show how repulsive they really find that word...

What makes you think they listen to that music? That they're black? ;)

There's no need for this debate, but there's a difference between the term 'n*gga' and using 'n*gger' as a derogatory term.

[banyon]

I have to wonder if he could put in for a search warrant on their car and home to collect their CD collection just to show how repulsive they really find that word...

I wouldn't think so. Although Kramer's lawyer probably would ask them such question if they put themselves on the stand, they are what is called "collateral and extrinsic" to the issue before the court, which is did Kramer perform the intentional infliction of distress.

Still, I would agree that these people's "outrage" seems pretty exaggerated.

[Bald but Beautiful]

Apology certainly, compensation?? F**k no.

[Al Bundy]

Richard Pryor, Eddie Murphy and a host of other black comedians make fun of white people on a regular basis and yet they have never been coined as racists. These 2 idiots in the crowd should know their roll.

[Al Bundy]

What makes you think they listen to that music? That they're black? ;)

There's no need for this debate, but there's a difference between the term 'n*gga' and using 'n*gger' as a derogatory term.

Actually... there really isn't. I know several black folks who despise both ways of saying it. I would be willing to bet the 2 guys that are suing probably call each other that on a regular basis.

[HolmeZz]

Actually... there really isn't. I know several black folks who despise both ways of saying it. I would be willing to bet the 2 guys that are suing probably call each other that on a regular basis.

And why would you be willing to bet that when you know nothing about them, other than that they're black?

[Bugeater]

What makes you think they listen to that music? That they're black? ;)

There's no need for this debate, but there's a difference between the term 'n*gga' and using 'n*gger' as a derogatory term.
Yeah, the difference being the color of the skin of the person saying it.

[HolmeZz]

Yeah, the difference being the color of the skin of the person saying it.

No.

And the debate is rather pointless if you can't distinguish or recognize the difference.

[morphius]

What makes you think they listen to that music? That they're black? ;)

There's no need for this debate, but there's a difference between the term 'n*gga' and using 'n*gger' as a derogatory term.
Just adding a twist :D

[Deberg_1990]

Richard Pryor, Eddie Murphy and a host of other black comedians make fun of white people on a regular basis and yet they have never been coined as racists. These 2 idiots in the crowd should know their roll.


I somewhat agree. Although i do feel that Richards crossed a line after a failed attempt at humour.


They shouldnt be entitled to anything except maybe a refund. They were at a Comedy club not walking down the street or on the job.

[Bugeater]

No.

And the debate is rather pointless if you can't distinguish or recognize the difference.
Sorry, but that's the way a lot of people see it. Why don't you explain the difference then?

[DanT]

Here's a link to MSNBC story about the appearance of two of the hecklers (Kyle Doss and Frank McBride) on The Today Show. There's also a link there to the video of that Today Show interview with Matt Lauer. Interestingly, according to Matt Lauer, Michael Richards declined to participate in the segment.

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/15855423/

From his image on the video, I think Kyle Doss is the same guy who played linebacker for Ventura College a few years ago, according to this link:
http://athletics.venturacollege.edu/people/athletes/2002-2003/m_football/kdoss.html

I only mentioned that because the thing that was most striking to me about the filmed part of their exchange (http://www.netscape.com/viewstory/2006/11/20/shocker-kramers-racist-tirade-caught-on-tape/?url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.tmz.com%2F2006%2F11%2F20%2Fkramers-racist-tirade-caught-on-tape%2F&frame=true) were the threats of physical violence made by both sides, starting with Richards' taunt that "50 years ago we'd have you upside down with a f*cking fork up your a**" and continuing from there."

The hecklers' attorney Gloria Allred's claim that her clients were vulnerable:

"Our clients were vulnerable," Allred said. "He went after them. He singled them out and he taunted them, and he did it in a closed room where they were captive."

http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2006/11/25/entertainment/main2208399.shtml?source=RSSattr=HOME_2208399

So I guess she thinks that her clients were temporarily unable to exercise their option of leaving the joint, an option they exercised within seconds of the "fork up your a**" taunt made by Richards.

Anyway, I'd be surprised if there's any legal basis for recovering money, especially given that Gloria Allred is proposing that the comedian and the hecklers get together before a retired judge. I wonder if she has a particular retired judge in mind.

[BWillie]

hey might as well try right? id do the same thing if i were in thier situation wouldnt you? maybe he will shell out some apology money to them to improve his image. this is a perfect opportunity to exploit a rich asshole for bein a dumbass

[Deberg_1990]

From his image on the video, I think Kyle Doss is the same guy who played linebacker for Ventura College a few years ago, according to this link:
http://athletics.venturacollege.edu/people/athletes/2002-2003/m_football/kdoss.html




Good point. I seriously doubt this ex linebacker was in any way shape or form threatened by a 50 year old Kramer. LOL

[DanT]

I wonder who Michael Richards meant by "we" when he said "50 years ago we'd have you upside down with a f*cking fork up your ass."

[HolmeZz]

Sorry, but that's the way a lot of people see it. Why don't you explain the difference then?

The terms are used differently. N*gga isn't a derogatory term. Usually it's used to refer to a friend i.e. "That's my n*gga". Other times it'll be used as just as a reference to another person i.e. "Look at that fat n*gga over there". In either case, the actual word is not hate-driven.

N*gger is the actual derogatory term.

[HolmeZz]

I wonder who Michael Richards meant by "we" when he said "we'd have you upside down with a f*cking fork up your ass."

He meant the white man. He actually made several references to that throughout the tirade. When they made fun of his career I believe he said "oh, so that's how you get back at the man?". Then later he said "that's what you get for interrupting the white man".

[Deberg_1990]

The terms are used differently. N*gga isn't a derogatory term. Usually it's used to refer to a friend i.e. "That's my n*gga". Other times it'll be used as just as a reference to another person i.e. "Look at that fat n*gga over there". In either case, the actual word is not hate-driven.

N*gger is the actual derogatory term.


You can try to rationalize all you want, and ive heard the same excuse many times, but its still wrong. I dont care however, or whatever race says it.

[morphius]

hey might as well try right? id do the same thing if i were in thier situation wouldnt you? maybe he will shell out some apology money to them to improve his image. this is a perfect opportunity to exploit a rich asshole for bein a dumbass
Actually no I wouldn't. I'd hope that their friends make fun of them for the rest of their lives for making their 15 minutes of fame by being the biggest whiny pussies ever. "He called me a bad name, WAH!!!!".

[HolmeZz]

You can try to rationalize all you want, and ive heard the same excuse many times, but its still wrong. I dont care however, or whatever race says it.

What exactly am I rationalizing? There's a clear difference in the two words and how they're used.

For example, if Richards had just said "are you calling me cracka ass, n*gga?" once, I don't think anything should've come from that. Especially because they would've been the ones who instigated the racial aspect of it.

[HolmeZz]

Hahahahaha.

F*CK YOU, N*GGA

[ChiefaRoo]

I heard the recording and one of them caused Cosmo mental anguish by calling him a cracker and by saying he hadn't had a hit since Seinfeld. I think he ought to sue them for mental anguish.

[T-post Tom]

I think Richards and the two money-grubbers should band together. Sue the comedy club for creating a stressful environment not conducive to comedy and hilarity. After all, it was their employee that instigated the whole affair by offering to take the money-grubber's drink order.

Then sue Gloria Allred for contributing to the decline of our legal system and promoting racial inharmony. Next up, sue the estate of Lenny Bruce. And lastly, they should sue our "Founding Fathers" for creating the Bill of Rights. I mean, really, why should free speach be free at all?

[Iowanian]

While what Kramer said is offensive to many and politically incorrect, it would have been "hilarious" if Chris Rock had responded the same way to majority of those offended.

I've been to alot of comedy clubs....I've seen people in the crowd picked out and run up a rail for their haircuts, clothing selection, body stature, weight, goiter on their face, choice of date, sexual orientation, and race.....many many times.

Kramer took what he said too far imo, but its hardly worth a dime of a lawsuit.

Anyone who claims it should be, isn't someone I'd want in my home....because I'd hate for you to get a splinter from my wood floors.

[Bugeater]

The terms are used differently. N*gga isn't a derogatory term. Usually it's used to refer to a friend i.e. "That's my n*gga". Other times it'll be used as just as a reference to another person i.e. "Look at that fat n*gga over there". In either case, the actual word is not hate-driven.

N*gger is the actual derogatory term.
Give me a ****ing break. If a white guy rolled into the ghetto and started calling everyone n*gga, he'd be dead meat. Why can't you just admit there's a double standard? It's not that big of deal, life is full of them, hell whitey benefits from some double standards as well. I just think it's hilarious that when that particular double standard gets pointed out the response is "you don't understand". Sorry, but it's pretty damn clear to me.

[stumppy]

Give me a ****ing break. If a white guy rolled into the ghetto and started calling everyone n*gga, he'd be dead meat. Why can't you just admit there's a double standard? It's not that big of deal, life is full of them, hell whitey benefits from some double standards as well. I just think it's hilarious that when that particular double standard gets pointed out the response is "you don't understand". Sorry, but it's pretty damn clear to me.


BINGO

[BigMeatballDave]

I don't have a problem with them suing.Maybe Richards should file a counter-suit. They called him a cracker. I am so sick of this shit. A verbal insult can only hurt you if you let it. Rise above it, and move on!

[HolmeZz]

Give me a ****ing break. If a white guy rolled into the ghetto and started calling everyone n*gga, he'd be dead meat. Why can't you just admit there's a double standard?

What exactly would be the double standard in this instance? That white people should be able to kill a black guy for going into their neighborhood and calling them crackers?

For there to be a double standard, one thing would have to be allowed and the other couldn't be. I don't see where you're going with it really. I'd have the same opinion if it was a black comic and white hecklers. I think what would be different overall would be the media attention and the public's outlook on the whole thing.

If you're saying black comics get away with more than white ones, I definitely agree with that. But I really don't see where that connects with what Richards did. What he did was not part of an act. There are times when you should be able to take most jokes tongue in cheek. This wasn't an instance of that though. He sounded like he was campaigning for Grand Wizard. It wasn't a momentary lapse in judgment.

[Nightwish]

The terms are used differently. N*gga isn't a derogatory term. Usually it's used to refer to a friend i.e. "That's my n*gga". Other times it'll be used as just as a reference to another person i.e. "Look at that fat n*gga over there". In either case, the actual word is not hate-driven.

N*gger is the actual derogatory term.
"N*gga" is a watered-down version of "n*gger." In recent years it's been assigned new meanings in a continuing attempt to defang the offensiveness of the original term, a way for black people to essentially deflect and disarm a weapon employed against them for so many years. They have tried to take an epithet against them, paint over it and make it their own. It's a half-assed attempt, though, when you stop to consider how quickly many blacks will jump down a white person's throat for trying to fit in by using the word "n*gga." That kind of knee-jerk reaction puts the word "n*gga" right back in its true light.

[Nightwish]

What exactly would be the double standard in this instance?The double standard comes in claiming that the word "n*gga" is not the same as "n*gger," that they are two different words, that the former is not intended to cause offense, but then reacting to white people who use the word "n*gga" as if they had used the other one. It's either an offensive term, or it isn't. They want to have their cake and eat it, too. Perhaps there is some small semblance of justice in that, considering how black people were treated for so many years, but that small semblance of justice doesn't very effectively mask the scent of bs when somebody says it isn't an offensive term.

When white people use the term "n*gga," they're usually just trying to fit in. It's goofy as hell, but they're not trying to offend. When blacks use it, they're trying to defang "n*gger" by making it their own and spelling it phonetically as it is commonly spoken. If they really want to defang it, then they should recognize what's going on when some goofy white kid is just trying to fit in, and stop jumping down their throats as if the white kid had just put on a KKK hood. The way they so often react, though, is just adding offensiveness that wouldn't be there otherwise.

[HolmeZz]

"N*gga" is a watered-down version of "n*gger." In recent years it's been assigned new meanings in a continuing attempt to defang the offensiveness of the original term, a way for black people to essentially deflect and disarm a weapon employed against them for so many years. They have tried to take an epithet against them, paint over it and make it their own. It's a half-assed attempt, though, when you stop to consider how quickly many blacks will jump down a white person's throat for trying to fit in by using the word "n*gga." That kind of knee-jerk reaction puts the word "n*gga" right back in its true light.

I think that is more a reflection of where you live. I know white people that say n*gga. Just like I know plenty of black people who don't use the words. It's more of a matter of just being familiar with the people you're using it around. They're very much two separate words though.

[HolmeZz]

The double standard comes in claiming that the word "n*gga" is not the same as "n*gger," that they are two different words, that the former is not intended to cause offense, but then reacting to white people who use the word "n*gga" as if they had used the other one.

You really believe that a black kid saying "whaddup n*gga?" to his friend carries the same connotation as the way Michaels used n*gger?

I think I would compare this to how you might talk to your friends. I might refer to one of them as 'Bitch' when I'm talking to them. I'm not going to talk that way to a random girl I don't know though.

[Garcia Bronco]

You really believe that a black kid saying "whaddup n*gga?" to his friend carries the same connotation as the way Michaels used n*gger?

I think I would compare this to how you might talk to your friends. I might call them 'bitch' or something when I'm talking to them. I'm not going to do that to address a female stranger though.


It shouldn't be used either way. A slur is a slur

[Nightwish]

You really believe that a black kid saying "whaddup n*gga?" to his friend carries the same connotation as the way Michaels used n*gger?
It's all psychology. But if that black kid jumps down a white kids throat for saying, "Whaddup, my n*gga," as is often the case (no, it's not just a matter of where you live, it happens everywhere), the black kid is basically telling the white kid that it carries the same connotation. If it didn't, they wouldn't react as they so often do.

[Deberg_1990]

It shouldn't be used either way. A slur is a slur

Exactly. I wish people would just stop using this ugly word forever. I dont care what color or race you are. Its just not right.

[Nightwish]

I think I would compare this to how you might talk to your friends. I might refer to one of them as 'Bitch' when I'm talking to them. I'm not going to talk that way to a random girl I don't know though.
Nobody would try to argue, though, that "bitch" doesn't have a negative connotation. Everyone recognizes and acknowledges that "bitch" is a slur, and when friends use it on one another, it is a playful slur, but a slur nonetheless. They're not going to say, "bitch" means friend or buddy. Part of the playfulness of using terms like "bitch" with your friends is in the acknowledgement that it is usually a slur. But you're not arguing that "n*gga" is usually a slur, but just used playfully between familiar parties, you're arguing that it isn't a slur, period.

[HolmeZz]

It's all psychology. But if that black kid jumps down a white kids throat for saying, "Whaddup, my n*gga," as is often the case (no, it's not just a matter of where you live, it happens everywhere), the black kid is basically telling the white kid that it carries the same connotation. If it didn't, they wouldn't react as they so often do.

Every black person feels differently about the word. Some don't care who uses it, some hate it and don't use it, and some don't want white people using it. That's their own opinion. Where you live definitely matters. It doesn't mean a region of the country or anything specifically. It'll vary neighborhood to neighborhood.

[HolmeZz]

Nobody would try to argue, though, that "bitch" doesn't have a negative connotation. Everyone recognizes and acknowledges that "bitch" is a slur, and when friends use it on one another, it is a playful slur, but a slur nonetheless. They're not going to say, "bitch" means friend or buddy. Part of the playfulness of using terms like "bitch" with your friends is in the acknowledgement that it is usually a slur. But you're not arguing that "n*gga" is usually a slur, but just used playfully between familiar parties, you're arguing that it isn't a slur, period.

Actually it doesn't carry any connotation when I use it with my friends. It's not calling them a bitch. It's just referring to them as if it's a name. Much like we'll refer to each other just by our last names if we're talking to or about one another.

[HolmeZz]

Exactly. I wish people would just stop using this ugly word forever. I dont care what color or race you are. Its just not right.

I agree.

[Nightwish]

I agree.
Ditto.

[TinyEvel]

I want money for having to listen to this load of crap.

[Bugeater]

Every black person feels differently about the word. Some don't care who uses it, some hate it and don't use it, and some don't want white people using it. That's their own opinion. Where you live definitely matters. It doesn't mean a region of the country or anything specifically. It'll vary neighborhood to neighborhood.
There we go. You just proved my point for me.

[mlyonsd]

I don't know any whites that think a black person using the word "cracker" as being offensive.

That being said if an African American can use the "N" word so should any other race.

Simple really.

[Chiefaholic]

You're a loon.


OK... If a white man can be sued for saying racial remarks about a black man, then why can't it be the other way around? Chris Rock literally made a living out of it. :mad:

[munkey]

You nor I know what anyone said to Richards. Furthermore, they paid for their tickets I assume. Richards is working for the Laugh Factory and has to act professionally. It's the same as if someone was booing an athlete at a sporting event and the player went up to them and started a fight.

Your a ****ing retard...Richards does NOT work for the Laugh Factory...He was there under contract..People like you make me sick.

Comparing an NFL event to a ****ing comedian is a joke...

MORON...

This PC Bullshit will be the end of life as we know it.

~I haven't read the whole thread but this piece of shit reply made me want to puke~

[munkey]

Every black person feels differently about the word. Some don't care who uses it, some hate it and don't use it, and some don't want white people using it. That's their own opinion. Where you live definitely matters. It doesn't mean a region of the country or anything specifically. It'll vary neighborhood to neighborhood.

Yep...

And state to state...

[munkey]

There we go. You just proved my point for me.

Thank you for pointing that out...

I would have but thought it might be "racist"....

[munkey]

OK... If a white man can be sued for saying racial remarks about a black man, then why can't it be the other way around? Chris Rock literally made a living out of it. :mad:

Your just a white trash, kiss your sister, cracker mutherfooker...

STFU.

Sue me biotch... :D

[munkey]

Actually it doesn't carry any connotation when I use it with my friends. It's not calling them a bitch. It's just referring to them as if it's a name. Much like we'll refer to each other just by our last names if we're talking to or about one another.

You are a racist my friend...

plain and simple.

I don't call my brothers "cracker"....Wait...That would sound really ****ing stupid wouldn't it?

~sorry for the tirade...just tired of the PC bullshit in our society...especially the reverse racists~

[munkey]

I agree.

LMAO


"Actually it doesn't carry any connotation when I use it with my friends. It's not calling them a bitch. It's just referring to them as if it's a name. Much like we'll refer to each other just by our last names if we're talking to or about one another." Holmez...

Thank you....

[KCBOSS1]

I don't throw the nBomb, don't even think to. I teach my kids not to. But I get so freakin' sick of the doubles-standards like the Chris Rock thing that somebody was talking about earlier. I've talked to some black friends about it. Some of them agree, some of them are perpetual victims no matter what is done and are looking for an excuse to blow up or sue somebody.

[HolmeZz]

LMAO


"Actually it doesn't carry any connotation when I use it with my friends. It's not calling them a bitch. It's just referring to them as if it's a name. Much like we'll refer to each other just by our last names if we're talking to or about one another." Holmez...

Thank you....

I said I use 'bitch'. Reading comprehension is your friend.

[Calcountry]

I am betting that they want to get paid.

[HolmeZz]

Your a ****ing retard...Richards does NOT work for the Laugh Factory...He was there under contract..People like you make me sick.

Comparing an NFL event to a ****ing comedian is a joke...

MORON...

This PC Bullshit will be the end of life as we know it.

~I haven't read the whole thread but this piece of shit reply made me want to puke~

He was working at the Laugh Factory that night. He has a responsibility to the club when he takes the stage there.

The fact that he's a comedian has NOTHING to do with the incident in reality. You try and use the fact that he's a comedian to justify what he did. Richards was not doing an act. He was not doing a bit. He snapped and responded completely unprofessionally. Being a comedian doesn't give you the right to act like an ass nor is it any kind of excuse.