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View Full Version : The biggest reason our offense was great was the O-Line, Herm didn't ruin it.


Tuckdaddy
12-20-2006, 07:04 AM
Herm has not ruined our offense. We don't have a dominate line anymore which has led to less yardage in the air and on the ground. Couple that with mediocre WR's and a suspect FB and this is what you get.

Trent is looking old as well. His arm no longer has the power to go down field. How many throws have hit the ground. How many times against Balt did they run up and knock the ball away from our WR's. We've seen Trnet under throw our guys more than once this year on deep patterns. This is related to arm strength.

Herm deserves a chance to build his team. Get the O-line he wants and get larger more physical WR's that can get the ball without having to be wide open.

At least we know damn well he will get some more beef for the D-line.

InChiefsHell
12-20-2006, 07:08 AM
Herm has not ruined our offense. We don't have a dominate line anymore which has led to less yardage in the air and on the ground. Couple that with mediocre WR's and a suspect FB and this is what you get.

Trent is looking old as well. His arm no longer has the power to go down field. How many throws have hit the ground. How many times against Balt did they run up and knock the ball away from our WR's. We've seen Trnet under throw our guys more than once this year on deep patterns. This is related to arm strength.

Herm deserves a chance to build his team. Get the O-line he wants and get larger more physical WR's that can get the ball without having to be wide open.

At least we know damn well he will get some more beef for the D-line.

Agreed. I'm pretty much in the same camp. The O Line was always the key, and now it's not working like it used to. That pretty much screws up the rest of the offense. Herm did not make Trent a year older and a little less accurate, he did not get rid of Roaf, he did not sign our mediocre recievers. He's working with what he has, which sadly ain't much anymore.

Blame Carl. It feels better!

Tuckdaddy
12-20-2006, 07:17 AM
Agreed. I'm pretty much in the same camp. The O Line was always the key, and now it's not working like it used to. That pretty much screws up the rest of the offense. Herm did not make Trent a year older and a little less accurate, he did not get rid of Roaf, he did not sign our mediocre recievers. He's working with what he has, which sadly ain't much anymore.

Blame Carl. It feels better!

YES! WE SHOUILD TAKE THE KING OUT BACK AND BEAT THE SNOT OUTTA HIM!

Warrior5
12-20-2006, 07:20 AM
Trent is looking old as well. His arm no longer has the power to go down field. How many throws have hit the ground. How many times against Balt did they run up and knock the ball away from our WR's. We've seen Trent under throw our guys more than once this year on deep patterns. This is related to arm strength.

For the good of the team, Trent needs to communicate his intentions to Herm & Carl ASAP. If he is going to retire after this season, Carl needs to re-sign Huard before he goes on the market.

I know Huard is 33, but he shows toughness and doesn't try to force throws into double coverage. Rebuild or not, he'd provide stability through next year while Croyle develops.

CupidStunt
12-20-2006, 07:50 AM
Trent is ready for a dirt nap, and Shields is barely average any more. Wiegmann is just being exposed more often than he used to be, and most of all we REALLY miss Roaf.

And, like it or not, Tait was much better than anyone we've had at right tackle since.

We need to spend draft picks building in the trenches.

'Hamas' Jenkins
12-20-2006, 07:52 AM
It's not that Trent's arm is shot...he's not a pitcher. He can't step into his throws because he's constantly being assaulted on all sides.

MOhillbilly
12-20-2006, 08:06 AM
i thought huard already had a new deal.

and we all knew last year that the O was gettin old.

Warrior5
12-20-2006, 08:10 AM
i thought huard already had a new deal.

That would be news to me; good news, but I must've missed it when it happened.

MOhillbilly
12-20-2006, 08:24 AM
http://www.kcchiefs.com/news/2006/03/16/chiefs_agree_to_terms_with_qb_damon_huard2/

CupidStunt
12-20-2006, 08:33 AM
That was a one-year deal for 2006.

He's a UFA.

Radar Chief
12-20-2006, 08:45 AM
It's not that Trent's arm is shot...he's not a pitcher. He can't step into his throws because he's constantly being assaulted on all sides.

I was watchín this specifically last week and almost all the under throws I was able to track were because he wasnít stepín through with his throw. Heís shortening his throwing motion 'cause heís either got someone at his feet or heís runín foríis life.

Reerun_KC
12-20-2006, 09:03 AM
Who evaluates the talent and decides who plays where on the OL? Solari or Herm...

Nice to see that the man in charge of the preformance of this football gets a complete free pass.

Reerun_KC
12-20-2006, 09:06 AM
also, if you can see that the line is failing, why sit on your hands and try to convience Big Willie to come back? Carl and Herm sit and did nothing thinking Willie was coming back!

They are both stupid jackasses. If something is broke or weak, you try and fix it, but no they just let it go and said we will be alright..

Tool bags

Chiefnj
12-20-2006, 09:09 AM
I wonder if Herm will realize that he needs a better OL and if he will address it.

In his 5 years in New York the Jets did not use a single first day draft pick at the OL position. This year, Mangini's first year, they used both on the OL (Brick and Mangold) and it appears to have paid dividends.

suds79
12-20-2006, 09:23 AM
Trent is ready for a dirt nap, and Shields is barely average any more. Wiegmann is just being exposed more often than he used to be, and most of all we REALLY miss Roaf.

And, like it or not, Tait was much better than anyone we've had at right tackle since.

We need to spend draft picks building in the trenches.

Agreed. While I love O-line play, we can't spend a lot of dollars on the entire O-line.

IMO, LT & RT is where you should typically spend the top picks to solidify those spots.

You can get Guards and Centers cheap in the middle to late rounds.

FD
12-20-2006, 10:16 AM
I agree completely. While all the emphasis in the media are on the stars and "skill" positions, football games are won and lost on the line of scrimmage, and thats where we need to focus.

Silock
12-20-2006, 10:19 AM
Carl and Herm sit and did nothing thinking Willie was coming back!

What were they supposed to do? Roaf announced shortly before training camp, and they thought Svitek was going to be his backup, with Sampson and Black at RT.

There wasn't really anything they could do.

Deberg_1990
12-20-2006, 10:20 AM
I wonder if Herm will realize that he needs a better OL and if he will address it.

In his 5 years in New York the Jets did not use a single first day draft pick at the OL position. This year, Mangini's first year, they used both on the OL (Brick and Mangold) and it appears to have paid dividends.

But yet they always ran the ball well with Curtis Martin. Didnt he lead the league in rushing like 2 or 3 years ago??


Pennington also had a couple of good years when he wasnt injured.

The Jets had a decent line.

htismaqe
12-20-2006, 10:29 AM
I wonder if Herm will realize that he needs a better OL and if he will address it.

In his 5 years in New York the Jets did not use a single first day draft pick at the OL position. This year, Mangini's first year, they used both on the OL (Brick and Mangold) and it appears to have paid dividends.

He drafted Kareem McKenzie in the 3rd round in 2001.

And you conveniently left out that in the 5 seasons prior to Herm's arrival, the Jets drafted Jason Fabini, Randy Thomas, and Matt O'Dwyer and acquired Kevin Mawae.

StcChief
12-20-2006, 10:31 AM
Herm is working with an aging OLine.

He will get some good replacements at OG, LT, WR, DT

I have confidence.

Silock
12-20-2006, 10:32 AM
We don't need a new LT. We need a new RT.

htismaqe
12-20-2006, 10:37 AM
We don't need a new LT. We need a new RT.

You can't be serious.

Reerun_KC
12-20-2006, 10:43 AM
What were they supposed to do? Roaf announced shortly before training camp, and they thought Svitek was going to be his backup, with Sampson and Black at RT.

There wasn't really anything they could do.


yes there was, from what everyone was saying Roaf turned his paper work in way before that and they had a pretty good idea that he wasnt coming back anyway.

On top of the Carl knew that Roaf was damaged goods anyway, why not play damamge control and try to resolve the situation earlier, by FA or draft.

Nope, that would of been the right thing to do.

If Herm had any balls between his legs, he would of went to Carl and said, Get me a good LT, so we dont have to worry about the grounds keepers digging up our QB's on a regular basis after they are repeatedly planted.

Agian like I said in a different thread. Herm was a safe hire, and these are the reasons why. No conflict, will do what Carl tells him to do with out any question.

Reerun_KC
12-20-2006, 10:45 AM
He drafted Kareem McKenzie in the 3rd round in 2001.

And you conveniently left out that in the 5 seasons prior to Herm's arrival, the Jets drafted Jason Fabini, Randy Thomas, and Matt O'Dwyer and acquired Kevin Mawae.


The Big Tuna wouldnt of had anything to do with that would he? He was the Jets HC before the Bill guy shafted them and went to NE right?


My thought was Herm always won with Parcells players and when that cupboard ran dry. Herm then proceeded to tank the organization. And yes this was before he came here to KC....

acasas4
12-20-2006, 10:47 AM
Granted the line isn't what it has been in the past but the play calling is not working. When you're constantly getting into third and long because you run the ball on 1st and 2nd downs the opposing defense is going to bring it on 3rd down because they know you have to throw. Play action more on 1st down, trick plays, hell do something that isn't so predictable. Don't keep trying to do the same thing over and over and expect a different result.

KCChiefsFan88
12-20-2006, 10:50 AM
Herm has not ruined our offense. We don't have a dominate line anymore which has led to less yardage in the air and on the ground. Couple that with mediocre WR's and a suspect FB and this is what you get.

Trent is looking old as well. His arm no longer has the power to go down field. How many throws have hit the ground. How many times against Balt did they run up and knock the ball away from our WR's. We've seen Trnet under throw our guys more than once this year on deep patterns. This is related to arm strength.

Herm deserves a chance to build his team. Get the O-line he wants and get larger more physical WR's that can get the ball without having to be wide open.

At least we know damn well he will get some more beef for the D-line.


Well if are so-called "genius" of a GM that too many people on this board STILL feel the urge to defend wouldn't have neglected the offense these past few offseasons and would have been proactive in ensuring that it maintained its spot as one of the best offenses in the league... the Chiefs wouldn't be in the current dire situation they are now in on offense.

But typical Carl Peterson, he let the problem blow up in his face before taking action.

htismaqe
12-20-2006, 10:51 AM
The Big Tuna wouldnt of had anything to do with that would he? He was the Jets HC before the Bill guy shafted them and went to NE right?


My thought was Herm always won with Parcells players and when that cupboard ran dry. Herm then proceeded to tank the organization. And yes this was before he came here to KC....

Whatever.

It's pretty simple. Herm didn't draft offensive linemen in New York because he really didn't need to.

That would be like Herm now going to the Raiders and them needing a RB and bitching because Herm didn't draft one in KC.

Seriously, some of your criticisms of Herm are downright retarded.

Woodrow Call
12-20-2006, 10:55 AM
The Big Tuna wouldnt of had anything to do with that would he? He was the Jets HC before the Bill guy shafted them and went to NE right?


My thought was Herm always won with Parcells players and when that cupboard ran dry. Herm then proceeded to tank the organization. And yes this was before he came here to KC....

Al Groh was there for 1 year between Parcells and Herm. I see nothing wrong with what Herm did in NY. He took them to the playoffs 3 out of 5 years, won a couple of playoff games, had a bad year in which everyone got hurt, and now a team filled with his draft picks and FAs are challenging for a playoff spot.

Silock
12-20-2006, 10:56 AM
What, exactly, has Black done wrong this year at LT? When opponents get pressure, it was mainly coming from a collapsed right side of the line. No, Black isn't Roaf, but who is? He wasn't very good at RT, but RT and LT are two different positions. They're not mirror images of each other just because they're on opposite sides of the line. His problem have been because he was moved around so much, in my opinion. He's settling in to his natural position and it's working right now.

Silock
12-20-2006, 10:57 AM
yes there was, from what everyone was saying Roaf turned his paper work in way before that and they had a pretty good idea that he wasnt coming back anyway.

Speculation.


If Herm had any balls between his legs, he would of went to Carl and said, Get me a good LT, so we dont have to worry about the grounds keepers digging up our QB's on a regular basis after they are repeatedly planted.

Preposterous. Who would they be able to get? I want some names.

Reerun_KC
12-20-2006, 11:00 AM
Whatever.

It's pretty simple. Herm didn't draft offensive linemen in New York because he really didn't need to.

That would be like Herm now going to the Raiders and them needing a RB and bitching because Herm didn't draft one in KC.

Seriously, some of your criticisms of Herm are downright retarded.


Criticisms or whatever you call it, some are justified and some are just to annoy you.... Why are you so willing to look past Herms history? Because he is the coach of KC? Biggest problem is Herms past is following him wether good or bad. We are seeing the same crap here, that last few years we were laughing at and was so glad he was the Jets problem and not ours. Well now he is here and everyone is laughing at us.

I never said anything about Herm drafting linemen in NYJ... I was talking about the fact that Roaf was damaged here and it should of been addressed by him and Carl, regardless if Roaf was coming back or not. That was all.

Besides I will never bitch about what Herm didnt draft here in KC if he is gone. Trust me on that and if I do you can call me out on it. Cool?

Zouk
12-20-2006, 11:01 AM
The Big Tuna wouldnt of had anything to do with that would he? He was the Jets HC before the Bill guy shafted them and went to NE right?


My thought was Herm always won with Parcells players and when that cupboard ran dry. Herm then proceeded to tank the organization. And yes this was before he came here to KC....


This is really preposterous. The team that beat SD in the playoffs, and came within a Doug Brien field goal of winning in Pittsburgh in 2004 was totally Herm's team and not at all Parcells' team.

Because I was bored, I actually went and counted using this website:

http://www.jt-sw.com/football/pro/rosters.nsf/Annual/2004-nyj

Only 6 (!) players on that team were ever coached by Parcells (Chrebet, Fabini, Ferguson, Martin, Mawae, and Sowell). That's an amazingly low number.

After Herm's first season in NY, he cut loose a lot of guys (Aaron Glenn, Marcus Coleman, Victor Green, James Farrior, Mo Lewis, Marvin Jones, etc. etc.) Expect the same fate for the Sammy Knights, Greg Wesleys, Kendrell Bells, and Eric Hickseses on this team.

That's why I think a lot of fans who expect massive investment in the offense this offseason are going to be disappointed. Herm will probably add a WR, but I think his focus this offseason will be on making the defense faster and better.

Reerun_KC
12-20-2006, 11:04 AM
This is really preposterous. The team that beat SD in the playoffs, and came within a Doug Brien field goal of winning in Pittsburgh in 2004 was totally Herm's team and not at all Parcells' team.

Because I was bored, I actually went and counted using this website:

http://www.jt-sw.com/football/pro/rosters.nsf/Annual/2004-nyj

Only 6 (!) players on that team were ever coached by Parcells (Chrebet, Fabini, Ferguson, Martin, Mawae, and Sowell). That's an amazingly low number.

After Herm's first season in NY, he cut loose a lot of guys (Aaron Glenn, Marcus Coleman, Victor Green, James Farrior, Mo Lewis, Marvin Jones, etc. etc.) Expect the same fate for the Sammy Knights, Greg Wesleys, Kendrell Bells, and Eric Hickseses on this team.

That's why I think a lot of fans who expect massive investment in the offense this offseason are going to be disappointed. Herm will probably add a WR, but I think his focus this offseason will be on making the defense faster and better.

Cool Thanks for the info, I will go and check it out.

Silock
12-20-2006, 11:05 AM
That's why I think a lot of fans who expect massive investment in the offense this offseason are going to be disappointed. Herm will probably add a WR, but I think his focus this offseason will be on making the defense faster and better.

I agree. I don't think we'll get a lot of "playmakers" on offense, but we'll shore up the O-line and D-line and fill areas of need on defense. We'll remain competitive because of our defense next year, and Herm will cut the chaff.

el borracho
12-20-2006, 11:07 AM
I was talking about the fact that Roaf was damaged here and it should of been addressed by him and Carl, regardless if Roaf was coming back or not. That was all.
Sampson, Svitek, Black... like always, it isn't that Peterless isn't trying to fix the problem- he just didn't do a good job of it.

Reerun_KC
12-20-2006, 11:07 AM
Speculation.



Preposterous. Who would they be able to get? I want some names.


When I get a chance, I will go back and dig through this to see if I can come up with something.

But are you sayin that there wasnt a LT anywhere in the FA market or the Draft that we could of signed that had promise or proved he was better than I-65?

How do we know if they never looked? Or did they look?

Bill Parcells
12-20-2006, 11:12 AM
He drafted Kareem McKenzie in the 3rd round in 2001.

And you conveniently left out that in the 5 seasons prior to Herm's arrival, the Jets drafted Jason Fabini, Randy Thomas, and Matt O'Dwyer and acquired Kevin Mawae.
I know you keep saying it's the offensive line..but here is something for you to think about..and I posted this in another thread..it's the coaches responsibility to maximize his own teams strengths,and take advantage of the opponents weaknesses..if the O-Line is as horrible as you say..why is the offense so predictable??(you can still be conservative without being predictable)doesn't it make sense to be unpredictable to keep the defense off balance??
As for the O-line theory,history says good coaching will prevail over a bad O-line.
In 1998 the Jets 0-line was not that good(took them to the AFC championship game)in 1999 Parcells started 2 rookies on the O-line....that O-line kicked ass..Randy Thomas and Ryan Young..they turned into very good players..

Baby Lee
12-20-2006, 11:13 AM
yes there was, from what everyone was saying Roaf turned his paper work in way before that and they had a pretty good idea that he wasnt coming back anyway.
The things 'everyone was saying' was speculation, nothing more.
What is verifiable, is that in May, before the OTAs, but after the draft, and after any marquee LT was off the table, Roaf was cheerleading this season as the one he felt 'better than ever' for, and was talking people into sticking around, giving it their all, and making the push for LJ to get 2K rushing.
What is verifiable is that there was no discussion of Roaf, except for off-hand remarks about tweaking his hammy in OTAs and going home after the OTAs for some rest and healing before training camp
What is verifiable is that this vacuum on Roaf news continued until day one of training camp, when Roaf FTA. He might have put his papers in early in TC. Heck he might have put them in even earlier. But there is no evidence of that to reference.
So stop with the 'everybody's saying' and give us solid facts about;
1) when Roaf's retirement was evident, and
2) what suitable replacements were available at that time and since.

Silock
12-20-2006, 11:15 AM
But are you sayin that there wasnt a LT anywhere in the FA market or the Draft that we could of signed that had promise or proved he was better than I-65?

1) Black wasn't even supposed to be starting at LT. He was slated in tentatively at RT. Injuries and incompetence (see: Sampson's sandy vagina, Svitek on IR and Turley's general level of "suck") gave him the LT starting job and allowed him to keep it.

2) Roaf retired after the draft and at the trail end of free agency. If there were someone available after Roaf retired, I have full confidence that they would have gone after them.

3) After Black settled in at LT, he hasn't made a whole lot of mistakes. Like I said, he's not Roaf, but he's certainly above average, and shouldn't be a huge area of concern right now, especially when you're looking at a line that's facing the loss of Shields and has a huge vacuum of a hole at RT. Add to that that Weigman, while very good when pulling and out in space, isn't well-suited for the up-the-gut running that we seem to be doing, and we might need to see what we have in Niswanger before next season starts.

htismaqe
12-20-2006, 11:21 AM
Criticisms or whatever you call it, some are justified and some are just to annoy you.... Why are you so willing to look past Herms history? Because he is the coach of KC? Biggest problem is Herms past is following him wether good or bad. We are seeing the same crap here, that last few years we were laughing at and was so glad he was the Jets problem and not ours. Well now he is here and everyone is laughing at us.

I never said anything about Herm drafting linemen in NYJ... I was talking about the fact that Roaf was damaged here and it should of been addressed by him and Carl, regardless if Roaf was coming back or not. That was all.

Besides I will never bitch about what Herm didnt draft here in KC if he is gone. Trust me on that and if I do you can call me out on it. Cool?

At least you admit that roughly half of your opinions on Herm are pure bullshit.

I personally love this. If I'm not willing to be 100% critical of Herm, whether it's warranted or not, to the point of MAKING THINGS UP to criticize him, I'm "looking past his history". Trust me, I've put up with being called a Carl apologist for years and it's not gonna change.

Quite simply, I will criticize Herm when he DESERVES TO BE CRITICIZED. The guy has made a TON of mistakes, so why is it necessary to invent things to bitch about? It doesn't make you look smart or progressive, it makes you look PETTY.

And I never said you or any other Chiefs fan would bitch about Herm didn't draft here.

I said Chief fans bitching that Herm never drafted a 1st-day offensive linemen (even though he actually did) while in New York would be like his next team's fans bitching that he didn't draft a RB while in Kansas City.

htismaqe
12-20-2006, 11:23 AM
I know you keep saying it's the offensive line..but here is something for you to think about..and I posted this in another thread..it's the coaches responsibility to maximize his own teams strengths,and take advantage of the opponents weaknesses..if the O-Line is as horrible as you say..why is the offense so predictable??(you can still be conservative without being predictable)doesn't it make sense to be unpredictable to keep the defense off balance??
As for the O-line theory,history says good coaching will prevail over a bad O-line.
In 1998 the Jets 0-line was not that good(took them to the AFC championship game)in 1999 Parcells started 2 rookies on the O-line....that O-line kicked ass..Randy Thomas and Ryan Young..they turned into very good players..

Thanks for bolstering my argument. Randy Thomas and Ryan Young were 2/5 of that offensive line. All the more reason it would have been STUPID for Herm to spend draft picks on linemen he already had.

htismaqe
12-20-2006, 11:24 AM
When I get a chance, I will go back and dig through this to see if I can come up with something.

But are you sayin that there wasnt a LT anywhere in the FA market or the Draft that we could of signed that had promise or proved he was better than I-65?

How do we know if they never looked? Or did they look?

So you're admitting that you have no clue if they looked or not? Now we're getting somewhere.

Bob Dole
12-20-2006, 11:25 AM
The things 'everyone was saying' was speculation, nothing more.
What is verifiable, is that in May, before the OTAs, but after the draft, and after any marquee LT was off the table, Roaf was cheerleading this season as the one he felt 'better than ever' for, and was talking people into sticking around, giving it their all, and making the push for LJ to get 2K rushing.
What is verifiable is that there was no discussion of Roaf, except for off-hand remarks about tweaking his hammy in OTAs and going home after the OTAs for some rest and healing before training camp
What is verifiable is that this vacuum on Roaf news continued until day one of training camp, when Roaf FTA. He might have put his papers in early in TC. Heck he might have put them in even earlier. But there is no evidence of that to reference.
So stop with the 'everybody's saying' and give us solid facts about;
1) when Roaf's retirement was evident, and
2) what suitable replacements were available at that time and since.

Chicken Little posted verifiable evidence of doubts about Roaf's return on 6/23.

Just sayin'...

Bill Parcells
12-20-2006, 11:26 AM
Thanks for bolstering my argument. Randy Thomas and Ryan Young were 2/5 of that offensive line. All the more reason it would have been STUPID for Herm to spend draft picks on linemen he already had.
Actually,Hermy let both of them go when he came on board..Thomas got gobbled up by the Redskins and he let Young go to the Texans..

FAX
12-20-2006, 11:26 AM
The things 'everyone was saying' was speculation, nothing more.
What is verifiable, is that in May, before the OTAs, but after the draft, and after any marquee LT was off the table, Roaf was cheerleading this season as the one he felt 'better than ever' for, and was talking people into sticking around, giving it their all, and making the push for LJ to get 2K rushing.
What is verifiable is that there was no discussion of Roaf, except for off-hand remarks about tweaking his hammy in OTAs and going home after the OTAs for some rest and healing before training camp
What is verifiable is that this vacuum on Roaf news continued until day one of training camp, when Roaf FTA. He might have put his papers in early in TC. Heck he might have put them in even earlier. But there is no evidence of that to reference.
So stop with the 'everybody's saying' and give us solid facts about;
1) when Roaf's retirement was evident, and
2) what suitable replacements were available at that time and since.

I distinctly remember pooping my drawers sometime in July.

FAX

htismaqe
12-20-2006, 11:29 AM
Chicken Little posted verifiable evidence of doubts about Roaf's return on 6/23.

Just sayin'...

So basically, we had plenty of LT's to choose from out of all the pro-bowlers that were on the June 1 cut list...

htismaqe
12-20-2006, 11:32 AM
Actually,Hermy let both of them go when he came on board..Thomas got gobbled up by the Redskins and he let Young go to the Texans..

Thomas got $4M per and $7M signing bonus from the Redskins. I suppose you can blame that on Herm too. IIRC, Ryan Young had some nagging injuries that led the Jets to believe he was expendable and it turned out to be correct - he missed like 50% of his games over the next 2 seasons after he left.

Bill Parcells
12-20-2006, 11:38 AM
Thomas got $4M per and $7M signing bonus from the Redskins. I suppose you can blame that on Herm too. IIRC, Ryan Young had some nagging injuries that led the Jets to believe he was expendable and it turned out to be correct - he missed like 50% of his games over the next 2 seasons after he left.
Listen....after watching the Chiefs play this year..I can tell you that offensively,thats exactly the same way the Jets played on offense from 2001-2005..the predictability of it is inexcusable..you can be conservative without being predictable.

MOhillbilly
12-20-2006, 11:40 AM
Criticisms or whatever you call it, some are justified and some are just to annoy you.... Why are you so willing to look past Herms history? Because he is the coach of KC? Biggest problem is Herms past is following him wether good or bad. We are seeing the same crap here, that last few years we were laughing at and was so glad he was the Jets problem and not ours. Well now he is here and everyone is laughing at us.



noones laughing at San Diego.

HermIsKing
12-20-2006, 11:59 AM
Thats right, Herm had difficult problems . to go against . No coach woulda gone to playoffs with this roster Herm needs better players and new cordinators,

Deberg_1990
12-20-2006, 12:04 PM
Listen....after watching the Chiefs play this year..I can tell you that offensively,thats exactly the same way the Jets played on offense from 2001-2005..the predictability of it is inexcusable..you can be conservative without being predictable.

Maybe Paul Hackett isnt so bad after all??

Zouk
12-20-2006, 12:05 PM
Listen....after watching the Chiefs play this year..I can tell you that offensively,thats exactly the same way the Jets played on offense from 2001-2005..the predictability of it is inexcusable..you can be conservative without being predictable.

I'd love for you to explain this.

By the way, here's the 1st and 10 stats from last week against the Chargers.

1st half - 7 passes, 7 runs
2nd half - 6 passes, 7 runs

I don't see that as predictable. Shawne Merriman and Luis Castillo being better than John Welbourn - now that's predictable.

FringeNC
12-20-2006, 12:07 PM
Obviously, Roaf retiring had a huge impact on the offense. But to suggest that Herm is blameless in this debacle is ridiculous. We had a better offense than this the first year Vermeil was here, and that was a new system and that was without Willie Roaf. How to allocate the blame between Roaf's absence and the current coaching staff -- now that's a tough question. I don't know.

What we do know is that Roaf was a hell of a LT, and that Vermeil, Saunders, and Solari working together were special. Saunders seems to miss Solari at Washington, and Solari seems to miss Saunders here, and they both probably miss Vermeil a lot.

As I have stated on other threads, it's not so much that Herm/Solari are incompetent so much as we went from the top offensive braintrust in the league to nothing special.

In this era of a salary cap and free agency, all teams are competitive. What makes winning franchises is good drafting, good cap management, and good coaching. With Vermeil/Saunders/Solari, we had good coaching on the offensive side. Now, we do nothing better than average. The only hope we really have is that Carl hits some home-runs on draft day. Before you laugh, a lot of it is luck....so our only hope is that Carl gets lucky. With this coaching staff, we're certainly not going to be out-coaching the opposition.

HermIsKing
12-20-2006, 12:09 PM
yeah bill, Herm is'nt predictable he is just too smart not to gamble away games with silly plays like vermeal.

Deberg_1990
12-20-2006, 12:12 PM
=We had a better offense than this the first year Vermeil was here, and that was a new system and that was without Willie Roaf.

Come on. That statement is a litte much.

The team sucked that year. with TrINT and alot of pieces to the puzzle still missing...

Nobody was calling for DV's head after he only won 6 games his first year here.

Herm needs time to show us what he can do and to get his kind of players in here.

Bill Parcells
12-20-2006, 12:13 PM
I'd love for you to explain this.

By the way, here's the 1st and 10 stats from last week against the Chargers.

1st half - 7 passes, 7 runs
2nd half - 6 passes, 7 runs

I don't see that as predictable. Shawne Merriman and Luis Castillo being better than John Welbourn - now that's predictable.
If you have 3rd and long as many times as you run on 1st and 2nd down..then those stats make sense..I did not see one play action pass on 1st down..THATS PREDICTABLE!

Bill Parcells
12-20-2006, 12:15 PM
Maybe Paul Hackett isnt so bad after all??
Listen..even Hackett admitted after he left,that ALL IMPORTANT CALLS have to go through Herm first..hence the massive usage of time outs.

Zouk
12-20-2006, 12:17 PM
If you have 3rd and long as many times as you run on 1st and 2nd down..then those stats make sense..I did not see one play action pass on 1st down..THATS PREDICTABLE!


I don't understand this response.

In the first half they threw 7 times on 1st and 10. At least 2 (and possibly more) of those were play action throws.

FringeNC
12-20-2006, 12:18 PM
Come on. That statement is a litte much.

The team sucked that year. with TrINT and alot of pieces to the puzzle still missing...

We'd move up and down the field that year. Our problem was we'd get into the red zone, and Trent would throw an interception. That was fixed the next year.

This year, we have big problems just moving the ball.

Bill Parcells
12-20-2006, 12:19 PM
I don't understand this response.

In the first half they threw 7 times on 1st and 10. At least 2 (and possibly more) of those were play action throws.
Predictability is not looking at overall stats when the game is over..I saw the Chargers stacking the line with 9-10 guys on 1st and 2nd down..and the Chiefs continued to run the ball..what do you call that??I watched the game.did you?

Bill Parcells
12-20-2006, 12:22 PM
I don't understand this response.

In the first half they threw 7 times on 1st and 10. At least 2 (and possibly more) of those were play action throws.
And..there are things known as screen passes and misdirection plays for over pursuing defenses..I didn't see any of those either.

Edit:I saw one screen

Silock
12-20-2006, 12:25 PM
Misdirection plays only work when you get the stretch play working. We ran a few screens, or tried to, but they usually got blown up.

HermIsKing
12-20-2006, 12:26 PM
herm doesnt like all that misdirection because he knows the best way is to take it directly into the teef of the defense. screens and misdirection are to's.

FringeNC
12-20-2006, 12:26 PM
And..there are things known as screen passes and misdirection plays for over pursuing defenses..I didn't see any of those either.

Edit:I saw one screen

Yep. They were stacking the line, and bull-rushing up the middle on every play, so if we ran, we were screwed, and if Trent dropped back we were screwed. We definitely needed more screens and misdirections...

Zouk
12-20-2006, 12:27 PM
Predictability is not looking at overall stats when the game is over..I saw the Chargers stacking the line with 9-10 guys on 1st and 2nd down..and the Chiefs continued to run the ball..what do you call that??I watched the game.did you?

Of course I watched the game. I watch every Chiefs game.

I gave you the stats on run vs. pass. What happened more often than not was that the Chargers stacked the line and blitzed 6. The Chiefs called pass plays, couldn't block them and they lost. This is not a play-calling problem, it is a physical problem.

The same thing would happen to the Jets if they played at San Diego. Merriman, Castillo, Phillips, Olshansky, Williams - this is a monster front 7 that is 100% healthy and on fire right now.

The real story is that if they got the blocked punt they would have had an excellent chance to go into halftime up 10-7. People don't talk about the fact that the Chiefs had scouted the Chargers passing game so well that they knew just about every pass play the Chargers were running and had Phillip Rivers running scared.

The way the Chiefs were going to win a tough road game like that was not by throwing 30 times. It would have to be by playing conservative and winning the turnover battle. People have tried the other way, and no one has beaten SD there yet this year.

Jets fans I know will never understand this. Chiefs fans, I hope, will.

Bill Parcells
12-20-2006, 12:27 PM
Misdirection plays only work when you get the stretch play working. We ran a few screens, or tried to, but they usually got blown up.
You're right....I have to agree with that..

htismaqe
12-20-2006, 12:28 PM
I don't understand this response.

In the first half they threw 7 times on 1st and 10. At least 2 (and possibly more) of those were play action throws.

You might as well forget it.

People bitch and moan about the lack of passing and playaction. So when the Chiefs DO IT, they bitch about the lack of screens. People bitch and moan about the number of draw plays to Larry Johnson, and then when the Chiefs use it LESS, people bitch that we aren't using it.

Get used to it - IT DOESN'T MATTER WHAT HERM DOES.

It will never be good enough.

Bill Parcells
12-20-2006, 12:36 PM
Of course I watched the game. I watch every Chiefs game.

I gave you the stats on run vs. pass. What happened more often than not was that the Chargers stacked the line and blitzed 6. The Chiefs called pass plays, couldn't block them and they lost. This is not a play-calling problem, it is a physical problem.


The same thing would happen to the Jets if they played at San Diego. Merriman, Castillo, Phillips, Olshansky, Williams - this is a monster front 7 that is 100% healthy and on fire right now.

The real story is that if they got the blocked punt they would have had an excellent chance to go into halftime up 10-7. People don't talk about the fact that the Chiefs had scouted the Chargers passing game so well that they knew just about every pass play the Chargers were running and had Phillip Rivers running scared.

The way the Chiefs were going to win a tough road game like that was not by throwing 30 times. It would have to be by playing conservative and winning the turnover battle. People have tried the other way, and no one has beaten SD there yet this year.

Jets fans I know will never understand this. Chiefs fans, I hope, will.
We will have to agree to disagree on this..but..I want to ask you one question.

Why was there no sense of urgency on offense late in the 4th quarter behind by 2 scores??and I'm not talking about with 4 minutes left,when they ran a draw play to LJ.I mean with 9 minutes left.

Bill Parcells
12-20-2006, 12:43 PM
Jets fans I know will never understand this. Chiefs fans, I hope, will.

Actually,you would be surprised at how many Jet fans there are that used to defend Herm until the very end.they were called Hermophiles.

Zouk
12-20-2006, 12:53 PM
We will have to agree to disagree on this..but..I want to ask you one question.

Why was there no sense of urgency on offense late in the 4th quarter behind by 2 scores??and I'm not talking about with 4 minutes left,when they ran a draw play to LJ.I mean with 9 minutes left.

I agree there should have been more urgency with 9 minutes left.

But please don't take this to mean that I agree that Herm Edwards is a bad clock manager. On the contrary, I actually think he's a very good clock manager. People are always focused on going too fast on offense at the end of halves. And this always opens the door to teams to go down the field with 30 seconds left and score a winning field goal (as the Chiefs did to the Chargers the first time they met this year). This happens time and again.

Herm is always focused on avoiding this. He wants to keep control of the ball all the way to the end of the half, and this leads most fans and announcers to think he is going too slow. I know this is a hotly debated topic - I'd be happy to go over specific instances with you if you'd like.

Most of Herm's bad clock mgmt. rep comes from Quincy Carter not knowing the plays in one game against Baltimore (if I remember correctly).

Reerun_KC
12-20-2006, 01:02 PM
You might as well forget it.

People bitch and moan about the lack of passing and playaction. So when the Chiefs DO IT, they bitch about the lack of screens. People bitch and moan about the number of draw plays to Larry Johnson, and then when the Chiefs use it LESS, people bitch that we aren't using it.

Get used to it - IT DOESN'T MATTER WHAT HERM DOES.

It will never be good enough.


I will give you this Htismaqe, I havent seen anyone on this board so dedicated to defending Herm as you.

But this is america and we all have the right to our own opinions. . Wether you like them or not. And being it is the USA you have a right to argue your point and use petty name calling as well.

So Get used to it - Alot of people dont care for him and like to express their opinion on here, wether you think it is factual or not, everyone has the right to their own opinion...

I respect your opinions wether I like the or not.

Rep to you!

Oh Snap
12-20-2006, 01:10 PM
The offense seemed to be just fine under huard at QB. The o line played some of there best football all year when huard was under center. Its herms fault that our offense is where it is because of the decision he made to start green over huard who was playing fantastic. Dont say well what about the fins game. We had bober playing LG in place of the best guard in the NFL. Of course its not going to be the same! So your blowing smoke out your ass if you think herms not at fault for the shitty state our offense is currently in. Maybe Green hurts our offense more then he helps it, including the OL.

Bill Parcells
12-20-2006, 01:27 PM
I agree there should have been more urgency with 9 minutes left.

OK

But please don't take this to mean that I agree that Herm Edwards is a bad clock manager. On the contrary, I actually think he's a very good clock manager. People are always focused on going too fast on offense at the end of halves. And this always opens the door to teams to go down the field with 30 seconds left and score a winning field goal (as the Chiefs did to the Chargers the first time they met this year). This happens time and again.
Then that goes against what he preaches..he always said let the defense win the game for you when you have the lead..and control the clock with the running game with a lead.

Herm is always focused on avoiding this. He wants to keep control of the ball all the way to the end of the half, and this leads most fans and announcers to think he is going too slow. I know this is a hotly debated topic - I'd be happy to go over specific instances with you if you'd like.

Most of Herm's bad clock mgmt. rep comes from Quincy Carter not knowing the plays in one game against Baltimore (if I remember correctly).
Having to waste timeouts because you can not get the plays in on time is inexcusable..it happened against the Chargers on Sunday.

Oh Snap
12-20-2006, 01:38 PM
good point bill. Herm said our offense is going to build up a lead and then sit on it by running the clock out. The giving the defense the opporutnity by closing games out for us, while the offense does its best to keep our D off the field by literally running out the clock. Basically by playing the 'conservative' offense which ironically we start each and every game out with by playing. Herm is backpeddleing. This wasnt the type of offense he said he was wanting to play with to get the lead. You wont get a lead by run run pass. That is what we call a conservative offense. Herm brought it with him from NY and now its here brought back from the depths and is alive and kicking in KC once again!!! Solari doesnt help with his 'clever' playing calling either.

htismaqe
12-20-2006, 01:40 PM
I will give you this Htismaqe, I havent seen anyone on this board so dedicated to defending Herm as you.

But this is america and we all have the right to our own opinions. . Wether you like them or not. And being it is the USA you have a right to argue your point and use petty name calling as well.

So Get used to it - Alot of people dont care for him and like to express their opinion on here, wether you think it is factual or not, everyone has the right to their own opinion...

I respect your opinions wether I like the or not.

Rep to you!

See, this is the common misconception.

I'm not defending Herm.

I'm not defending ANYTHING.

I'm ATTACKING opinions that are poorly contructed and ill-informed. Nothing more.

Reerun_KC
12-20-2006, 01:46 PM
See, this is the common misconception.

I'm not defending Herm.

I'm not defending ANYTHING.

I'm ATTACKING opinions that are poorly contructed and ill-informed. Nothing more.


Easy now there big fellow! I think if look at your over all posts you attack anything that is constructed as criticism towards Herm, you seemed to lean towards the defense of Herm...

Herm made his own bed, we are just pointing out the facts to the rest of the board.

Let me ask you this? If our thoughts and attacks against herm are poorly constructed and ill-informed, give us your thoughts, with out making excuses for his coaching style. Without using the lack of his players and injuries as an excuse, obviously his predecessor at NYJ isnít doing to back with Herms old players...

htismaqe
12-20-2006, 01:53 PM
Easy now there big fellow! I think if look at your over all posts you attack anything that is constructed as criticism towards Herm...

Herm made his own bed, we are just pointing out the facts to the rest of the board.

Let me ask you this? If our thoughts and attacks against herm are poorly constructed and ill-informed, give us your thoughts, with out making excuses for his coaching style. Without using the lack of his players and injuries as an excuse, obviously his predecessor at NYJ isnít doing to back with Herms old players...

It's a coincidence.

Hatred, whether it's for Carl, Herm, or anyone else, tends to be firmly rooted in EMOTION. Therefore, detractors are generally more frequent targets because they haven't usually thought out their arguments beyond "So and so sucks!" I have no problem with anyone pointing out facts, but they need to be factual and they have to be in context.

My thoughts on Herm? He's a Marty-clone. I don't really like his style, but I'm willing to give him a bit of a chance. I really wasn't happy with his decision to retain Gunther but I think that's indicative of an overall trend that included both Paul Hackett and Jimmy Raye. I just hope he doesn't completely ruin Mike Solari.

Injuries aren't an excuse, they're a fact of life. You simply cannot remove injuries from the equation and expect to arrive at a relatively objective conclusion of how good a coach did or did not do. Especially when those injuries come to the most important players on the field, namely QB.

Finally, Bill Parcells was Herm's predecessor. :D

Reerun_KC
12-20-2006, 02:16 PM
It's a coincidence.

Hatred, whether it's for Carl, Herm, or anyone else, tends to be firmly rooted in EMOTION. Therefore, detractors are generally more frequent targets because they haven't usually thought out their arguments beyond "So and so sucks!" I have no problem with anyone pointing out facts, but they need to be factual and they have to be in context.

My thoughts on Herm? He's a Marty-clone. I don't really like his style, but I'm willing to give him a bit of a chance. I really wasn't happy with his decision to retain Gunther but I think that's indicative of an overall trend that included both Paul Hackett and Jimmy Raye. I just hope he doesn't completely ruin Mike Solari.

Injuries aren't an excuse, they're a fact of life. You simply cannot remove injuries from the equation and expect to arrive at a relatively objective conclusion of how good a coach did or did not do. Especially when those injuries come to the most important players on the field, namely QB.


Finally, Bill Parcells was Herm's predecessor. :D


Yeah totally whiffed on the predecessor thing.... Nice call!

I think you hit the nail on the head and I have said this before. Herm is a Marty Clone. That is why there is so much of a shorter leash on Herm then on the previous not to be named coach.

When the previous coach came to KC, there was a new hope and optimism, the transformation from the so called "3 yards and a cloud of Dust" era was going to take some time. The fans were willing to give them that time. Why? The previous coach had a Super Bowl Ring. It was shiny and blinding to the Fans; little did we know that the previous coach was going to make the Defense ride a short bus to all away games. Super bowl ring equaled time to rebuild program.

Then along came Herm. Now poor old Herm is caught between a rock and a hard spot. First he inherits a steady declining offense with a solid young stud RB. (Although with a little creativity and few risks and this ďO" could still be top 10) Herm comes in and right off the bat bashes the offense for the lack of success of the Chiefs for the last 5 years. Well that was a kick in the nuts to the pride of the Chief fans. We took pride in our Offense. It was all we could hang our hat on.

Then he has the monumental task of building the Defense that has been ranked down around the bottom 4 for the last 5 years. This defense had the least amount of NFL talent in the history of the NFL for a defense. (Again thank you previous coach) We all knew that they had to make improvements to help the Defense, but at what cost? The cost came as not trying to improve a declining offense and help the Defensive embarrassment improve.

A couple of things that really eat at the fans of KC,

1. Herm doesnít think we are very knowledgeable fans. He talks to the media like we have no clue to what is happening on the field. IE "Playing to win the game" When someone questions his lack of coaching abilities.

2. His game decisions leave a lot to be desired. Playing prevent in Cleveland and rushing 4? Punting on 4th and season late in the Baltimore game? Not using timeouts properly. Etc... Etc... Etc...

Lastly, we as chief fans really didnít want to see this type of football back at KC. We went from 1989 to 2001 with Marty ball type football. It has worn thin in KC. We are not even through the first year of Hermie ball and we are already looking 3-4 years ahead, hanging our hopes that this dark cloud will move on and a change of the guard in KC is just over the horizon.

Silock
12-20-2006, 02:20 PM
He talks to the media like we have no clue to what is happening on the field. IE "Playing to win the game" When someone questions his lack of coaching abilities.

You have actually heard the questions the media asks, right? Our media asks some of the dumbest, most obvious questions I think I've ever heard.

Reerun_KC
12-20-2006, 02:22 PM
You have actually heard the questions the media asks, right? Our media asks some of the dumbest, most obvious questions I think I've ever heard.


I am sure they do, I was just using that as an example....

Bill Parcells
12-20-2006, 02:25 PM
Finally, Bill Parcells was Herm's predecessor. :D

It was Al Groh.;)

MahiMike
12-20-2006, 03:19 PM
Herm has not ruined our offense....

I couldn't get past this sentence....

Brock
12-20-2006, 03:27 PM
I couldn't get past this sentence....

At least you have the courage to admit it. I'm sure you can find a remedial english class in your area that can help you with your problem.

htismaqe
12-20-2006, 03:54 PM
It was Al Groh.;)

DOH!

htismaqe
12-20-2006, 03:57 PM
Yeah totally whiffed on the predecessor thing.... Nice call!

I think you hit the nail on the head and I have said this before. Herm is a Marty Clone. That is why there is so much of a shorter leash on Herm then on the previous not to be named coach.

When the previous coach came to KC, there was a new hope and optimism, the transformation from the so called "3 yards and a cloud of Dust" era was going to take some time. The fans were willing to give them that time. Why? The previous coach had a Super Bowl Ring. It was shiny and blinding to the Fans; little did we know that the previous coach was going to make the Defense ride a short bus to all away games. Super bowl ring equaled time to rebuild program.

Then along came Herm. Now poor old Herm is caught between a rock and a hard spot. First he inherits a steady declining offense with a solid young stud RB. (Although with a little creativity and few risks and this ďO" could still be top 10) Herm comes in and right off the bat bashes the offense for the lack of success of the Chiefs for the last 5 years. Well that was a kick in the nuts to the pride of the Chief fans. We took pride in our Offense. It was all we could hang our hat on.

Then he has the monumental task of building the Defense that has been ranked down around the bottom 4 for the last 5 years. This defense had the least amount of NFL talent in the history of the NFL for a defense. (Again thank you previous coach) We all knew that they had to make improvements to help the Defense, but at what cost? The cost came as not trying to improve a declining offense and help the Defensive embarrassment improve.

A couple of things that really eat at the fans of KC,

1. Herm doesnít think we are very knowledgeable fans. He talks to the media like we have no clue to what is happening on the field. IE "Playing to win the game" When someone questions his lack of coaching abilities.

2. His game decisions leave a lot to be desired. Playing prevent in Cleveland and rushing 4? Punting on 4th and season late in the Baltimore game? Not using timeouts properly. Etc... Etc... Etc...

Lastly, we as chief fans really didnít want to see this type of football back at KC. We went from 1989 to 2001 with Marty ball type football. It has worn thin in KC. We are not even through the first year of Hermie ball and we are already looking 3-4 years ahead, hanging our hopes that this dark cloud will move on and a change of the guard in KC is just over the horizon.

Firstly, let me say that you don't speak for all Chiefs fans. Some of us were VERY excited to see Vermeil come in, because we were VERY tired of Martyball. But some of us were also extremely relieved to see Vermeil LEAVE and we've been without any meaningful wins for SO LONG that we're willing to accept the return of conservatism if it means we can WIN.

And in Herm's defense, a great many Chiefs fans ARE NOT very smart at all. I'm sure Laz will be here any minute, because this really gets his goat, but it's true. I've said it many times:

The average Planeteer is FAR MORE football saavy than the average Chiefs fan.

HermIsKing
12-20-2006, 04:05 PM
Thats right htitsmacquae we are savy and can see that Herm is good for the team, and will trn it aroun.

Reerun_KC
12-20-2006, 04:16 PM
Thats right htitsmacquae we are savy and can see that Herm is good for the team, and will trn it aroun.


dude you might want to invest in spell checker...

You sound like a 7th grader, trying to be funny...


Your not funny, but very annoying.

Reerun_KC
12-20-2006, 04:21 PM
Firstly, let me say that you don't speak for all Chiefs fans. Some of us were VERY excited to see Vermeil come in, because we were VERY tired of Martyball. But some of us were also extremely relieved to see Vermeil LEAVE and we've been without any meaningful wins for SO LONG that we're willing to accept the return of conservatism if it means we can WIN.

And in Herm's defense, a great many Chiefs fans ARE NOT very smart at all. I'm sure Laz will be here any minute, because this really gets his goat, but it's true. I've said it many times:

The average Planeteer is FAR MORE football saavy than the average Chiefs fan.


K I dont speak for all Cheifs Fans, but for alot of them...

Going home, will write more tomorrow.

Enjoyed!

milkman
12-20-2006, 05:07 PM
Firstly, let me say that you don't speak for all Chiefs fans. Some of us were VERY excited to see Vermeil come in, because we were VERY tired of Martyball. But some of us were also extremely relieved to see Vermeil LEAVE and we've been without any meaningful wins for SO LONG that we're willing to accept the return of conservatism if it means we can WIN.

And in Herm's defense, a great many Chiefs fans ARE NOT very smart at all. I'm sure Laz will be here any minute, because this really gets his goat, but it's true. I've said it many times:

The average Planeteer is FAR MORE football saavy than the average Chiefs fan.

And for the record, some of us weren't happy about either.

Silock
12-21-2006, 12:12 AM
K I dont speak for all Chiefs Fans, but for alot of them...

I must have missed the memo. :p

I just don't understand why so many people have so much vitriol for Herm. It doesn't make any sense when you look at the facts of what this team has been through from after the draft up until now. It's one thing to disagree with the coach and his decisions -- that's fine. It's completely another to become so blinded with hatred that you lash out irrationally at anything and everything you perceive to be the coach's fault. I'm not saying it's you, but I've seen far too much of this going on lately, and the only thing I can attribute it to is 37 years of frustration finally taking their toll on the fans.

'Hamas' Jenkins
12-21-2006, 04:45 AM
Firstly, let me say that you don't speak for all Chiefs fans. Some of us were VERY excited to see Vermeil come in, because we were VERY tired of Martyball. But some of us were also extremely relieved to see Vermeil LEAVE and we've been without any meaningful wins for SO LONG that we're willing to accept the return of conservatism if it means we can WIN.

And in Herm's defense, a great many Chiefs fans ARE NOT very smart at all. I'm sure Laz will be here any minute, because this really gets his goat, but it's true. I've said it many times:

The average Planeteer is FAR MORE football saavy than the average Chiefs fan.

From the standpoint of football savvy-ness, I have been nonplussed with what Herm has done, but for the record, I've also been one of his biggest detractors. I never wanted him here in the first place, so that could color my opinion of him to some extent. However, it's hard to watch this offense's functioning (or lack thereof) this year. You can put a good deal of it on execution, but poor coaching, game planning, and play calling have had a greater hand in it, IMO.

We never run screens, reverses or counters. We almost never run the stretch play anymore, which negates Wiegmann's best abilities as an O-lineman.

Running one TE screen does not connotate trying to set up an adequate misdirection game plan. Furthermore, the wholesale lack of spreading the field (which helps negate our receivers' inability to get open) is stupid coaching. If you spread the field and give Trent carte blanche for audibles, then you let Larry run into six or seven man fronts, and if they stack, you can use a quick hitter, or a pump and go.

We've also never used the pump draw this year, primarily because we have no semblance of how to pass to open up the run. Moreover, Herm is extremely myopic in his management of LJ. Running the guy 440 times in one year might help you win 1 or 2 more games this year, but it's going to cost you 10 over the next 4.

There is a huge gap in logic for someone to be so conservative offensively, while brazenly grinding our best playmaker into the ground, acting as though there will be no recourse for so many carries, and that's one of the main reasons why I don't think Herman Edwards should be a head coach in the NFL.

Silock
12-21-2006, 05:01 AM
We never run screens, reverses or counters. We almost never run the stretch play anymore, which negates Wiegmann's best abilities as an O-lineman.

Yes we do. They just don't work. If you look at the statistics, we get far more yardage running up the gut than we do running to the left or right sides. It's all about execution.

Furthermore, the wholesale lack of spreading the field (which helps negate our receivers' inability to get open) is stupid coaching. If you spread the field and give Trent carte blanche for audibles, then you let Larry run into six or seven man fronts, and if they stack, you can use a quick hitter, or a pump and go.

We don't have the receivers or offensive line for that. Our RT is so terrible that if we don't keep extra blockers in, our QB gets killed. Trent got rocked on a *1 step drop* on Sunday. He couldn't even get the designed screen off. That's how bad it is.

Running the guy 440 times in one year might help you win 1 or 2 more games this year, but it's going to cost you 10 over the next 4.

I agree, to an extent. Bennett has been effective when he was in there. We gave up a 4th for him... might as well get some use out of him before he goes off injuring himself while racing offensive linemen again.

Oucho Cinco
12-21-2006, 06:06 AM
Herm has not ruined our offense. We don't have a dominate line anymore which has led to less yardage in the air and on the ground. Couple that with mediocre WR's and a suspect FB and this is what you get.

Trent is looking old as well. His arm no longer has the power to go down field. How many throws have hit the ground. How many times against Balt did they run up and knock the ball away from our WR's. We've seen Trnet under throw our guys more than once this year on deep patterns. This is related to arm strength.

Herm deserves a chance to build his team. Get the O-line he wants and get larger more physical WR's that can get the ball without having to be wide open.

At least we know damn well he will get some more beef for the D-line.

Herm has stated that the next three years they are drafting defense. Doesn't do much to bolster faith in what the offense will be doing in the near future.

'Hamas' Jenkins
12-21-2006, 06:13 AM
Yes we do. They just don't work. If you look at the statistics, we get far more yardage running up the gut than we do running to the left or right sides. It's all about execution.



We don't have the receivers or offensive line for that. Our RT is so terrible that if we don't keep extra blockers in, our QB gets killed. Trent got rocked on a *1 step drop* on Sunday. He couldn't even get the designed screen off. That's how bad it is.



I agree, to an extent. Bennett has been effective when he was in there. We gave up a 4th for him... might as well get some use out of him before he goes off injuring himself while racing offensive linemen again.

Running off tackle isn't misdirection. Shields and Wiegmann both operate best in space. Using them on occasional stretch plays helps open up the middle. FWIW, we've been largely stonewalled up the gut by teams who run 3-4's this year (San Diego last week, Pitt, etc.)

Getting beat on a one step drop isn't the O-line's fault...the D had his candence down to a T. No one in the NFL is that fast unless they know what is coming from the snap count.

We didn't and haven't run very many counters or screens this year. It's a fact that is readily visible by observation of any Chiefs game. If you can't see that, then you have much larger issues to deal with...like blindness.

And FWIW, the spread isn't so that you can execute 7 step drops...it's so that you can get more favorable matchups for Tony, Wilson and Kennison on shorter routes. It also opens up running lanes for LJ. We obviously can't run 20 yard square-ins w/ this o-line, but that doesn't mean that we can't spread out the D to ensure they attack from the edges rather than right up our gut as happened last week.

Chiefnj
12-21-2006, 08:23 AM
We don't have the receivers or offensive line for that. Our RT is so terrible that if we don't keep extra blockers in, our QB gets killed. Trent got rocked on a *1 step drop* on Sunday. He couldn't even get the designed screen off. That's how bad it is.

I don't have the inclination to watch the game again, but I'm pretty sure the majority of pressure that came from SD came up the gut against the "strength" of KC's OL. Granted Welbourn has not been the same since he has stopped his supplements, however a lot of the pass protection problems this past week came from the middle of the line.

Bill Parcells
12-21-2006, 08:40 AM
There is a huge gap in logic for someone to be so conservative offensively.
UH OH..We got Hamas in this thread now..

I think it's more important to point out that you can still be conservative offensively without being predictable..

Silock
12-21-2006, 09:38 AM
Running off tackle isn't misdirection. Shields and Wiegmann both operate best in space. Using them on occasional stretch plays helps open up the middle. FWIW, we've been largely stonewalled up the gut by teams who run 3-4's this year (San Diego last week, Pitt, etc.)

Misdirection plays do not work unless you get the stretch play working. We've been stonewalled on the outside this year. So, if you follow the train of logic there, it's very, very difficult to get any kind of misdirection going when the stretch play doesn't work. And we've been stonewalled by 3-4 teams this year in ALL phases, not just up the middle. We still get the vast majority of our rushing yards up the middle, and it's not even a contest.

Getting beat on a one step drop isn't the O-line's fault...the D had his candence down to a T. No one in the NFL is that fast unless they know what is coming from the snap count.

They anticipated the snap count, but they also were not blocked or touched. They just ran straight through.

We didn't and haven't run very many counters or screens this year. It's a fact that is readily visible by observation of any Chiefs game. If you can't see that, then you have much larger issues to deal with...like blindness.

No, we haven't. But it's deeper than just playcalling. Maybe playcalling is part of it, but you have to be able to physically execute the plays against the other team, and that's just not something that's happened much this year.

And FWIW, the spread isn't so that you can execute 7 step drops...

Duh?

it's so that you can get more favorable matchups for Tony, Wilson and Kennison on shorter routes. It also opens up running lanes for LJ. We obviously can't run 20 yard square-ins w/ this o-line, but that doesn't mean that we can't spread out the D to ensure they attack from the edges rather than right up our gut as happened last week.

Look, we got creamed by good defenses for a reason. It's execution, and we're just not doing that on offense right now, in any phase. Neither the Ravens nor the Chargers had to blitz to get pressure on our QB. They were able to generate pressure with their line. Blitzes just made the play over more quickly. Now, I agree that we should spread it out some more, but that's just a bandaid, and it won't work every single time. The problem is much deeper than that.

htismaqe
12-21-2006, 09:40 AM
Running off tackle isn't misdirection. Shields and Wiegmann both operate best in space. Using them on occasional stretch plays helps open up the middle. FWIW, we've been largely stonewalled up the gut by teams who run 3-4's this year (San Diego last week, Pitt, etc.)

Getting beat on a one step drop isn't the O-line's fault...the D had his candence down to a T. No one in the NFL is that fast unless they know what is coming from the snap count.

We didn't and haven't run very many counters or screens this year. It's a fact that is readily visible by observation of any Chiefs game. If you can't see that, then you have much larger issues to deal with...like blindness.

And FWIW, the spread isn't so that you can execute 7 step drops...it's so that you can get more favorable matchups for Tony, Wilson and Kennison on shorter routes. It also opens up running lanes for LJ. We obviously can't run 20 yard square-ins w/ this o-line, but that doesn't mean that we can't spread out the D to ensure they attack from the edges rather than right up our gut as happened last week.

Wiegmann operates better in space. Shields doens't need space. He established himself as one of the best in the league under Marty, blocking straight ahead like he is now.

'Hamas' Jenkins
12-21-2006, 10:26 AM
Misdirection plays do not work unless you get the stretch play working. We've been stonewalled on the outside this year. So, if you follow the train of logic there, it's very, very difficult to get any kind of misdirection going when the stretch play doesn't work. And we've been stonewalled by 3-4 teams this year in ALL phases, not just up the middle. We still get the vast majority of our rushing yards up the middle, and it's not even a contest.



They anticipated the snap count, but they also were not blocked or touched. They just ran straight through.



No, we haven't. But it's deeper than just playcalling. Maybe playcalling is part of it, but you have to be able to physically execute the plays against the other team, and that's just not something that's happened much this year.



Duh?



Look, we got creamed by good defenses for a reason. It's execution, and we're just not doing that on offense right now, in any phase. Neither the Ravens nor the Chargers had to blitz to get pressure on our QB. They were able to generate pressure with their line. Blitzes just made the play over more quickly. Now, I agree that we should spread it out some more, but that's just a bandaid, and it won't work every single time. The problem is much deeper than that.


Did you ever think that the reason we got stonewalled had to do with the fact that the only thing our offense *wants* to do is run up the middle and when that is taken away our entire scheme falls apart?

We tried the stretch play a few times in the opener, and it didn't work...but to say that it has been taken away all year is ridiculous. After that game, Solari/Herm basically gave up on it. They're like a damned abused dog. If one bad thing happens, they cower in the corner and piss all over themselves...

They've done this all year, whether it's crawling into a complete shell after a turnover, or completely giving up on the screen game because one poorly designed play (a f*cking TE screen) is snuffed out, never trying draws, pump draws, or actually running a reverse (which no one respects in the PA game, because we never actually do it save for Parker in Miami).

Without Roaf, without Wellbourne, using a less-experienced Black and Sampson on the edges, this team still moved the ball last year. People point to the Buffalo game...but that was an anomaly. The first six games last year, our offense averaged 25 ppg, and that's with a 10 point shitbath effort in Denver. This year, with the same players, our offense has put up 10 and 9 points in successive games. We've sucked ass in the redzone all year, and that's just the beginning of it.

We have a coach whose philosophy is play not ot lose, and an offensive coordinator who hasn't proven he can put the requisite planning together to lead a whore to bed.


Here's my question for you: When a reasonable poster (like bill parcells) points out the stunning similarities between this offense and the Jet offense of 01-05, doesn't that mean anything to you? parcells is a legitimate Jet fan and a good poster, he's not a troll. Look at the mediocrity of the offense, the lack of possession, the pandering to the media, the grousing from the locker room IN YEAR ONE.

Herm is an empty suit.

buddha
12-21-2006, 12:12 PM
It shouldn't matter what Trent's intentions are! If you want to keep Huard, you sign him now. It's a freaking business and Trent understands how it works...he's a big boy. The point about the offensive problems stemming from the sharp decline of the o-line is correct. Our receivers were just as poor last year, however, we didn't have to depend on them as much. Trent didn't have as much pressure because people were scared of LJ. The defense is BETTER than last year's version, although you'd never know it by reading many posts around here.

Anybody who is blaming Herm for our current problems really hasn't thought this thing through. We saw this day coming, didn't we? That line was aging before our eyes over the last couple of years and it was only a matter of time before things came apart.

KC is several positions shy on both sides of the ball right now. We can argue over which needs are the greatest, but the bottom line is that this team needs 2-3 good drafts and 2-3 good years of smart free agency transactions before we are where we need to be.

As for the comments about Shields being equally good straight ahead as he is on the move, I disagree. I think Will used to be very effective as a base blocker, but he has taken a few steps back in that area. He has always been a GREAT pulling guard because he is agile and can adjust so well on the move.

chief2000
12-21-2006, 12:25 PM
LJ's blocking helped contribute to the loss at SD.

We should have taken OLINE in the second round last season : Should have moved up to get Mcneal.

Reerun_KC
12-21-2006, 12:40 PM
KC is several positions shy on both sides of the ball right now. We can argue over which needs are the greatest, but the bottom line is that this team needs 2-3 good drafts and 2-3 good years of smart free agency transactions before we are where we need to be.



Well we are pretty much screwed than... Cause this hasnt happen very often in Carls 18 years of his 5 year plan...

Calcountry
12-21-2006, 01:19 PM
I don't think you can point to one player(Roaf/Welbourne) or one Coach or GM. The team mentality as a whole just sucks.

They are in a "League of Losers", and until that culture is changed, it will remain that way.

Silock
12-21-2006, 01:28 PM
When a reasonable poster (like bill parcells) points out the stunning similarities between this offense and the Jet offense of 01-05, doesn't that mean anything to you?

There are no "stunning similarities" that you can't point to and come to any reasonable conclusions. Some years, Herm ran the ball more, some he passed more. The years he passed more, he was less successful. The years he ran more, he usually got a playoff berth and a win, which is more than the 30 PPG, league leading offense ever got us. You can bitch and moan about the lack of offensive production, and you'd be right. We need more production. But you absolutely cannot ignore the injury situation and all around cluster**** that the offensive line has been this year. It's just not rational.

If, at this point next year, after all reasonable attempts to fix the offensive line have been made, and they are an improved unit and we're sitting a .500 or below, then I'll jump on your bandwagon. But not until then. It just doesn't make any sense to come to any conclusions right now. Belichick sucked before he got to the Patriots (and no, I'm not saying Herm is going to be Belichick). Every team and coaching combination is different, and it's a mistake to compare them. You have to take each situation as it comes. What I see is an improved defense, and an inherited offense with aging, injury, a new OC and lack of skill at the WR position. All good things come to an end. I think it's just an unfortunate coincidence that Herm showed up when he did. He's taking a lot of heat right now, because people expected immediate results. 37 years of frustration is coming to a head, and it sucks for the guy caught in the middle. I know that in this day and age we perpetually live in a "What have you done for me lately" mood, but this is a bit ridiculous.

I just don't believe it's possible to come to any kind of reasonable conclusion about a coach after only one season. If you want to do so, that's fine, but don't try and peddle it off as some kind of set in concrete fact. Your opinion is just as valid as mine, but without sufficient data, they are both opinions without much factual data backing them up.