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Chiefnj
01-08-2007, 01:26 PM
From Jo-Po's article:

"No one could have imagined it turning out exactly this way.

Well, maybe one guy imagined it.

“I wasn’t surprised,” Chiefs running back Larry Johnson grumbled. “I knew what was going to happen.”"

_____

Herm is supposed to be a great motivator. He's not an X's and O's guy. He doesn't call plays on game day. He's supposed to motivate his players. He's supposed to get them to believe.

11 moths ago Herm took LJ aside and told him during his first meeting that he was the man. He was going to get the carries he's been asking for, no controversy, no competing for the job - LJ is the man.

How sad is it that going into the playoff game the player that was going to carry the load, the most important player in Herm's offense, didn't believe his team was going to win. He knew the Chiefs were going to lose.

That is downright pathetic.

Reaper16
01-08-2007, 01:28 PM
To be fair, LJ "knew" that the offensive gameplan wasn't going to work. He never said that he knew the team was going to lose, rather that the Colts would be able to stop the run.

OnTheWarpath58
01-08-2007, 01:29 PM
I could be wrong, but I thought the full quote implied that LJ knew that Indy would come out with a chip on their shoulder and play 8-9 in the box.......

Bob Dole
01-08-2007, 01:29 PM
When the camera crews showed LJ sulking alone on the sidelines, he sure looked like he was interested in the game's outcome.

BIG_DADDY
01-08-2007, 01:30 PM
Herm's predictablility in play calling is second to none. LJ knew that and tried making a comment on it before this game. What did Herm do, more of the same.

HemiEd
01-08-2007, 01:30 PM
When the camera crews showed LJ sulking alone on the sidelines, he sure looked like he was interested in the game's outcome.

Missed his nights out in NY.

Cochise
01-08-2007, 01:32 PM
Herm's predictablility in play calling is second to none. LJ knew that and tried making a comment on it before this game. What did Herm do, more of the same.

Well, Herm isn't calling plays.

Reerun_KC
01-08-2007, 01:34 PM
Well, Herm isn't calling plays.


Nope but he will sure hammer his OC for not running Butt Sex offense...

Proved that is pre-season...

J Diddy
01-08-2007, 01:34 PM
I could be wrong, but I thought the full quote implied that LJ knew that Indy would come out with a chip on their shoulder and play 8-9 in the box.......


The sad thing is that I guess nobody on the Chiefs felt they were gonna do that. If only the media could have alerted Herm the way they alerted Indy to our gameplan.

Chiefnj
01-08-2007, 01:35 PM
To be fair, LJ "knew" that the offensive gameplan wasn't going to work. He never said that he knew the team was going to lose, rather that the Colts would be able to stop the run.

The full sentence prior to "No one cold have ..." was

"The Colts won 23-8. It might as well have been 123-8. No one could have imagined it turning out exactly this way."

Posnaski was referring to the score and result, perhaps LJ wasn't, but in any event, why should LJ have thought the Colts would be able to stop the run?

The Colts didn't stop the run for 16 weeks. They didn't stop the run against the Texan's piss poor OL and Ron Dayne.

Mr. Laz
01-08-2007, 01:35 PM
Herm's predictablility in play calling is second to none. LJ knew that and tried making a comment on it before this game. What did Herm do, more of the same.
yep ...

the offensive players knew that being so predictable makes their job alot harder.


in this day and age, the defenses are too good to beat without some sort of misdirection or surprise.


dam ... even Marty has learned that

FringeNC
01-08-2007, 01:38 PM
yep ...

the offensive players knew that being so predictable makes their job alot harder.


in this day and age, the defenses are too good to beat without some sort of misdirection or surprise.


dam ... even Marty has learned that

Yep. Playing not lose is fool's gold. It simply won't work in the playoffs, if you luck in there due to an easy schedule.

Mr. Laz
01-08-2007, 01:38 PM
Well, Herm isn't calling plays.
no he's not ... but he made it perfectly clear earlier in the year that he did not approve of Solari throwing the ball very much.

the gameplan changed because Edwards wanted it to change.


Herman Edwards doesn't call the players but he dam sure well dictates the general idea of the plays.

BIG_DADDY
01-08-2007, 01:38 PM
When the camera crews showed LJ sulking alone on the sidelines, he sure looked like he was interested in the game's outcome.

Anybody who thinks LJ doesn't want to win is wacked. He may say some things you don't want him to but bottom line is the the guy wants to compete and win. All season when we have went to a pass first run second scheme it has opened up the running game. In spite of that with all his wisdom Herm has returned to a run first throw second plan that continued to fail. I have no confidence we are ever going to win it all under Herm.

Baby Lee
01-08-2007, 01:39 PM
That was the most troubling for me as well. Nothing like our workhorse resigned to failure before the game even starts.

We need to either cut Herm loose, or get people in there who will respond to him.

I could care less which, but to put on the display ON THE FIELD, that Gonzo, Dante, TrINT, Larry, Kennison, et al did, then grumble that they knew it was gonna happen is pure bullshit. All the drops, muffs, footstomps, and stuffs, then blaming it on the playcalling is bullshit, too.

acesn8s
01-08-2007, 01:41 PM
Play-action might have helped.

KCTitus
01-08-2007, 01:41 PM
The only thing they talked about all week was a strong does of LJ -- they being the media -- hey, here's an idea, come out throwing. Maybe they put the defense on their heels for a bit to get a quick lead. Nah...that's silly talk.

The fact that KC couldnt score from the 9 yard line was all I needed to see.

dirk digler
01-08-2007, 01:43 PM
I don't know if the quote is directed at Solari or Herm but I understand their frustration.

This Offense has become very, very predictable and you can't have that and be successful in the NFL.

FringeNC
01-08-2007, 01:43 PM
Too bad LJ's credibility is suspect, because he's right in this case. He's been criticizing how he's been used and playcalling going all the way back to Penn State.

FAX
01-08-2007, 01:44 PM
I don't know if the quote is directed at Solari or Herm but I understand their frustration.

This Offense has become very, very predictable and you can't have that and be successful in the NFL.

Once we simplify, it will be all better, Mr. dirk digler. No DC in their right mind will think that we're going to run it on ever single down. We'll break a long one eventually.

FAX

dirk digler
01-08-2007, 01:45 PM
The only thing they talked about all week was a strong does of LJ -- they being the media -- hey, here's an idea, come out throwing. Maybe they put the defense on their heels for a bit to get a quick lead. Nah...that's silly talk.

The fact that KC couldnt score from the 9 yard line was all I needed to see.

Exactly. The first play should have been a play action pass deep or in the middle of the field.

But that would go against everything we have done this year. I don't think we have thrown once on the first play of our first series all year.

BIG_DADDY
01-08-2007, 01:45 PM
That was the most troubling for me as well. Nothing like our workhorse resigned to failure before the game even starts.

We need to either cut Herm loose, or get people in there who will respond to him.

I could care less which, but to put on the display ON THE FIELD, that Gonzo, Dante, TrINT, Larry, Kennison, et al did, then grumble that they knew it was gonna happen is pure bullshit. All the drops, muffs, footstomps, and stuffs, then blaming it on the playcalling is bullshit, too.

So if you played on offense in the NFL would you be excited about playing under Herm? Would you believe in him?

dirk digler
01-08-2007, 01:46 PM
Once we simplify, it will be all better, Mr. dirk digler. No DC in their right mind will think that we're going to run it on ever single down. We'll break a long one eventually.

FAX

LMAO.

Wile_E_Coyote
01-08-2007, 01:48 PM
It has to be hard to execute the plan, if you don't believe in it.

KCTitus
01-08-2007, 01:49 PM
I don't know if the quote is directed at Solari or Herm but I understand their frustration.

This Offense has become very, very predictable and you can't have that and be successful in the NFL.

It certainly was on Sunday...KC ran on running downs and attempted to pass on passing downs (2nd and 10+ or 3rd and long)...with the OL KC has, they cannot afford to be predictable, because Freeney was owning Black toward the end of that game.

Baby Lee
01-08-2007, 01:51 PM
So if you played on offense in the NFL would you be excited about playing under Herm? Would you believe in him?
You mean if I got paid millions to wear the Chiefs uniform?
No, I'd probably perform like shit, then blame it on the coach afterwards.

BIG_DADDY
01-08-2007, 01:51 PM
It certainly was on Sunday...KC ran on running downs and attempted to pass on passing downs (2nd and 10+ or 3rd and long)...with the OL KC has, they cannot afford to be predictable, because Freeney was owning Black toward the end of that game.

Funny, this was exactly what LJ was bitching about. We have the most predictable play calling ever.

Baby Lee
01-08-2007, 01:52 PM
It has to be hard to execute the plan, if you don't believe in it.
There's the soundbyte that says it all.

Chiefnj
01-08-2007, 01:53 PM
So if you played on offense in the NFL would you be excited about playing under Herm? Would you believe in him?


Since Herm was able to beat the Colts in the playoffs something like 41-0 and the last time my team faced the Colts we lost and couldn't force a single punt, I would at least try to have some faith in the guy however misplaced it might be.

What bothers me is that the offensive veterans, the ones spoiled under DV and AS, didn't believe and that led, in part, to very poor execution.

I think Herm lost the faith of a good percentage of the offensive players, and I doubt he'll get it back. As BabyLee said, either Herm should go, or the offense needs to be gutted.

BIG_DADDY
01-08-2007, 01:55 PM
You mean if I got paid millions to wear the Chiefs uniform?
No, I'd probably perform like shit, then blame it on the coach afterwards.


I didn't say you wouldn't give your best effort. There is big difference between giving your best effort and believing in your game plan. This is a emotional game you have to believe. Believing isn't a choice though, you either have it or you don't. Several things in life are like that.

ping2000
01-08-2007, 01:55 PM
[QUOTE=Chiefnj]From Jo-Po's article:

"No one could have imagined it turning out exactly this way.

Well, maybe one guy imagined it.

“I wasn’t surprised,” Chiefs running back Larry Johnson grumbled. “I knew what was going to happen.”"

Worse quotes:

"All of my coaches are welcome to return next year." - Herm

"I'm going to simplify the offense" - Herm

Baby Lee
01-08-2007, 01:56 PM
It certainly was on Sunday...KC ran on running downs and attempted to pass on passing downs (2nd and 10+ or 3rd and long)...with the OL KC has, they cannot afford to be predictable, because Freeney was owning Black toward the end of that game.
Unlike that wildly unpredictible gameplan the jags unleashed on the Colts, run, run, run, run the backup, run the 3rd stringer, get 'em all 100 yards on the day, oh and run.

Couldn't be that they executed their gameplan better?

acesn8s
01-08-2007, 01:56 PM
Funny, this was exactly what LJ was bitching about. We have the most predictable play calling ever.
Why mix it up? We got 9 whole wins this way. 3 of those was on the road. It don't get much better than this in KC. :banghead:

dirk digler
01-08-2007, 01:56 PM
It has to be hard to execute the plan, if you don't believe in it.

Yep. We went for averaging over 30 pts /game the last 3-4 years to 20.7.

Shit we dropped 10 pts a game that is ****ing ridiculous.

Fairplay
01-08-2007, 01:57 PM
Anybody who thinks LJ doesn't want to win is wacked. He may say some things you don't want him to but bottom line is the the guy wants to compete and win. All season when we have went to a pass first run second scheme it has opened up the running game. In spite of that with all his wisdom Herm has returned to a run first throw second plan that continued to fail. I have no confidence we are ever going to win it all under Herm.



100 percent agreed. LJ spoke the truth so nail him to the cross. I don't think so.

Herm can delivery great sermons in the locker room but fails on the field.
The players have a hard time buying into his sheme and it shows on the field.

FAX
01-08-2007, 01:57 PM
Since Herm was able to beat the Colts in the playoffs something like 41-0 and the last time my team faced the Colts we lost and couldn't force a single punt, I would at least try to have some faith in the guy however misplaced it might be.

What bothers me is that the offensive veterans, the ones spoiled under DV and AS, didn't believe and that led, in part, to very poor execution.

I think Herm lost the faith of a good percentage of the offensive players, and I doubt he'll get it back. As BabyLee said, either Herm should go, or the offense needs to be gutted.

Good point, Mr. Chiefnj. He's already lost the faith of Gonzo and (apparently) LJ to some extent at least. I imagine LJ is somewhat concerned about his career after slamming into DT's 400 times in a year. Once he throws Trent under the greyhound (which he will), he'll lose him too. Let me see, who's left?

Mr. Baby Lee is right. It's Herm or what's left of our offense. And there isn't much left.

FAX

Wile_E_Coyote
01-08-2007, 01:58 PM
"It's not the skill, men. It's the will"

the will was not there

FringeNC
01-08-2007, 01:59 PM
You mean if I got paid millions to wear the Chiefs uniform?
No, I'd probably perform like shit, then blame it on the coach afterwards.

Disingenuous response. His question was more like "rank order the NFL coaches you'd like to play for", not "would you like to play in the NFL?"

Baby Lee
01-08-2007, 02:00 PM
I didn't say you wouldn't give your best effort. There is big difference between giving your best effort and believing in your game plan. This is a emotional game you have to believe. Believing isn't a choice though, you either have it or you don't. Several things in life are like that.
You cannot possibly give your best effort unless you believe in the game plan, it's human nature.

Wile_E_Coyote
01-08-2007, 02:01 PM
Yep. We went for averaging over 30 pts /game the last 3-4 years to 20.7.

Shit we dropped 10 pts a game that is ****ing ridiculous.

The horses it took to do that are gone or aged. Those days were gone with out some major offensive retooling, no matter who the coach

KCTitus
01-08-2007, 02:01 PM
Unlike that wildly unpredictible gameplan the jags unleashed on the Colts, run, run, run, run the backup, run the 3rd stringer, get 'em all 100 yards on the day, oh and run.

Couldn't be that they executed their gameplan better?

Absolutely, the execution sucked...KC has been a woeful road team.

KCTitus
01-08-2007, 02:03 PM
Good point, Mr. Chiefnj. He's already lost the faith of Gonzo and (apparently) LJ to some extent at least. I imagine LJ is somewhat concerned about his career after slamming into DT's 400 times in a year. Once he throws Trent under the greyhound (which he will), he'll lose him too. Let me see, who's left?

Mr. Baby Lee is right. It's Herm or what's left of our offense. And there isn't much left.

FAX

Holy crap...if KC gets rid of LJ and Gonzo and Green retires, that's it. There's nothing left. Well, ok, Dee Brown still around. Maybe they will build around that. Heck they dont even have a FB to build around.

OnTheWarpath58
01-08-2007, 02:03 PM
Funny, this was exactly what LJ was bitching about. We have the most predictable play calling ever.

Putting that supposed "most troubling quote" in context:

From said article:

“Those guys have TVs,” Johnson said. “I’m sure they heard about it from their friends at dinner. … They have pride. They’re professionals. They stepped up. I knew that would happen.”

and

“We acted like we were playing against a bunch of dumdums,” Johnson said.

and

“I could say some things, but then people would say I was being a jerk,” he said. “So I’m just going to hold my tongue.” When told that Tony Gonzalez had called the offense predictable, Johnson smiled and said: “That’s Tony; he can get away with that. I can’t.”



LJ wants to win. Period. He didn't go into the game thinking we were going to lose.

Easy 6
01-08-2007, 02:04 PM
yep ...

the offensive players knew that being so predictable makes their job alot harder.


in this day and age, the defenses are too good to beat without some sort of misdirection or surprise.


dam ... even Marty has learned that

Exactly.

Herm has proven that "close to the vest" football can & will get you to the dance.

But once there, you HAVE to open it up. The opposition has watched your basic plan ALL YEAR & their players are just as amped as ours.

So you have to out-think them sometimes.

BIG_DADDY
01-08-2007, 02:04 PM
You cannot possibly give your best effort unless you believe in the game plan, it's human nature.

Can we both agree on this? No matter how much you're getting paid believing is still not a choice? You either have it or you don't.

Baby Lee
01-08-2007, 02:06 PM
Disingenuous response. His question was more like "rank order the NFL coaches you'd like to play for", not "would you like to play in the NFL?"
Just doing my best in the face of a disingenuous question.

I make the point that grumbling about the gameplan after shitting the bed on the playing field is BS, and BD asks me if Herm is my favorite coach.

My point wasn't about whether I HEART Herm or not, it was about whining like bitches about things ostensibly out of their conrtrol AFTER getting schooled on the field, where they were the ones control.

And I'll hold to it, until someone points out where in the playbook Herm wrote up, 'TE drops pass to hands,' 'WR drops first down,' 'QB throws to receiver's feet,' 'QB throws to other team,' 'RB runs into back of line and falls down.'

THAT, I'd agree is a shitty game plan. Whose responsibility that game plan is, is not yet fully established, but I have my inklings.

KCTitus
01-08-2007, 02:08 PM
So you have to out-think them sometimes.

Witness all the 'trickery' in the NE/NYJ game...crap, KC would have been caught with 12 men on the field about 8 times in that game.

BIG_DADDY
01-08-2007, 02:08 PM
Putting that supposed "most troubling quote" in context:

From said article:

“Those guys have TVs,” Johnson said. “I’m sure they heard about it from their friends at dinner. … They have pride. They’re professionals. They stepped up. I knew that would happen.”

and

“We acted like we were playing against a bunch of dumdums,” Johnson said.

and

“I could say some things, but then people would say I was being a jerk,” he said. “So I’m just going to hold my tongue.” When told that Tony Gonzalez had called the offense predictable, Johnson smiled and said: “That’s Tony; he can get away with that. I can’t.”



LJ wants to win. Period. He didn't go into the game thinking we were going to lose.

This offense simply doesn't respect Herm at all and with good reason. Last few years we have been second in the league in total offense. This year the Ravens are rated higher. Looking back it's no wonder Roaf didn't want to come back.

FAX
01-08-2007, 02:09 PM
Inkle away, Mr. Baby Lee.

I'm interested in your views. As has been mentioned, it's easy to envision the players in the huddle rolling their eyes when the next run up the center's buttocks play is called.

FAX

OnTheWarpath58
01-08-2007, 02:12 PM
This offense simply doesn't respect Herm at all and with good reason. Last few years we have been second in the league in total offense. This year the Ravens are rated higher. Looking back it's no wonder Roaf didn't want to come back.


Is is a lack of respect, or having sand in the 'gina for not being the focal point of the team any longer?

I suspect a little of both......

BIG_DADDY
01-08-2007, 02:12 PM
I make the point that grumbling about the gameplan after shitting the bed on the playing field is BS, and BD asks me if Herm is my favorite coach.

.

I never asked you if he was your favorite coach. What I am asking you you avoid.

I also agree with you that there is no excuse for dropping all those balls. Doesn't look to me like you're looking to agree about anything though.

Easy 6
01-08-2007, 02:12 PM
Witness all the 'trickery' in the NE/NYJ game...crap, KC would have been caught with 12 men on the field about 8 times in that game.

I didnt really watch much of that game, was too busy gnashing teeth & looking at next year on the Planet.

Chiefnj
01-08-2007, 02:16 PM
Unlike that wildly unpredictible gameplan the jags unleashed on the Colts, run, run, run, run the backup, run the 3rd stringer, get 'em all 100 yards on the day, oh and run.

Couldn't be that they executed their gameplan better?

Exactly.

Take Indy's last 4 games. They won 2 and lost 2.

The games they lost were Jax and the Texans. Jax had 14 pass attempts and 42 rushing attempts. They didn't spread it out. They ran the ball and executed. The Texans had 42 rushing attempts and only 21 passing attempts. Again, they ran the ball almost twice as much as they threw it. Both teams ran it well.

The games that Indy lost were games where teams tried to pass. Cincy (who arguably has one of the best pass offenses in the league) had a 30:28 rush/pass split. Miami only ran 26 times and threw the ball 36 times.

The way to beat the Colts was on the ground. LJ was right - the Colts defensive players took their criticism to heart. They played with pride. The Chiefs offensive players didn't.

Herm talked about the importance of the first 5 minutes of the game. What happened in the Chiefs first 5 minutes? LJ run for zero yards. LJ run for 2 yards and a dropped 3rd down pass. They didn't even use up 5 minutes.

If you want to carry over some time, the Chiefs OPENED THE 2nd DRIVE WITH A PASS. Yes it's true, they passed it on first down. It was a short pass to Tony G, and was complete. (I'm sure those people bashing Green will contend it was a miraculous catch on a ball thrown 8 yards short, but a catch nonetheless). LJ got the ball on 2nd down and gained an amazing one yard.

Where was LJ's pride and professionalism?

I didn't start the thread to bash LJ, but IMHO he didn't give the best effort because he didn't believe in the scheme.

Herm has lost control and couldn't motivate the offense. That's not good because just as the D is showing some improvement, the offense needs a complete rebuild.

BIG_DADDY
01-08-2007, 02:18 PM
Is is a lack of respect, or having sand in the 'gina for not being the focal point of the team any longer?

I suspect a little of both......

I think it's about having the recipe for success. You have had it for years and now somebody comes along and wants change everything, why? Just fix the ****ing defense Herm. Predictability is a problem as well. When you and me and every armchair QB across the country can predict what plays are coming next you are going to have a problem.

Reerun_KC
01-08-2007, 02:18 PM
Is is a lack of respect, or having sand in the 'gina for not being the focal point of the team any longer?

I suspect a little of both......


what has Herm done to earn any respect in the NFL?


I cant see on thing or decision this year for the Chiefs that would warrant respect.

What I see is a guy that is a pompus ass, Herm thinks he is so much better than everyone, thinks he is smarter and it is his way or the highway...

I for one think our coach is the one that needs an attitude adjustment. He has done shit and won shit in the NFL... Nobody can respect that.

KCJohnny
01-08-2007, 02:18 PM
Everybody in the universe knew our game plan. I could tell on the first play of the game our O had ZERO confidence.

|Zach|
01-08-2007, 02:19 PM
Everybody in the universe knew our game plan. I could tell on the first play of the game our O had ZERO confidence.
It has never been a mystery what this team was trying to do. It hasn't mattered when we executed.

The other teams knew our game plan in our 9 wins.

Baby Lee
01-08-2007, 02:19 PM
I never asked you if he was your favorite coach. What I am asking you you avoid.

I also agree with you that there is no excuse for dropping all those balls. Doesn't look to me like you're looking to agree about anything though.
So what's the question? If I were an O player under Herm would I be excited, would I beleive.

Well first off, I'd be greatly relieved to finally know that whatever I worked my ass off to accomplish wouldn't be given away 30 seconds later by the D.

Second, I'd believe in the team and concentrate on performing my job duties to perfection.

Third, if I had any reservations, I'd either dispute them with the coaching staff, or give them an opportunity to convince me. And once I made the decision to take the field under them, I'd never lay any of my own failures off on them.

BIG_DADDY
01-08-2007, 02:21 PM
Exactly.

Take Indy's last 4 games. They won 2 and lost 2.

The games they lost were Jax and the Texans. Jax had 14 pass attempts and 42 rushing attempts. They didn't spread it out. They ran the ball and executed. The Texans had 42 rushing attempts and only 21 passing attempts. Again, they ran the ball almost twice as much as they threw it. Both teams ran it well.

The games that Indy lost were games where teams tried to pass. Cincy (who arguably has one of the best pass offenses in the league) had a 30:28 rush/pass split. Miami only ran 26 times and threw the ball 36 times.

The way to beat the Colts was on the ground. LJ was right - the Colts defensive players took their criticism to heart. They played with pride. The Chiefs offensive players didn't.

Herm talked about the importance of the first 5 minutes of the game. What happened in the Chiefs first 5 minutes? LJ run for zero yards. LJ run for 2 yards and a dropped 3rd down pass. They didn't even use up 5 minutes.

If you want to carry over some time, the Chiefs OPENED THE 2nd DRIVE WITH A PASS. Yes it's true, they passed it on first down. It was a short pass to Tony G, and was complete. (I'm sure those people bashing Green will contend it was a miraculous catch on a ball thrown 8 yards short, but a catch nonetheless). LJ got the ball on 2nd down and gained an amazing one yard.

Where was LJ's pride and professionalism?

I didn't start the thread to bash LJ, but IMHO he didn't give the best effort because he didn't believe in the scheme.

Herm has lost control and couldn't motivate the offense. That's not good because just as the D is showing some improvement, the offense needs a complete rebuild.

D played a pretty good game which is a credit to Herm. I just wish he hadn't tried to completely change the O.

Baby Lee
01-08-2007, 02:23 PM
I do have place the blame firmly on Herm for writing up the ill-conceived 'have the O-lineman stomp on the QB's foot on goal-to-go' play.

Any idiot could see that wasn't gonna pay big dividends.

BIG_DADDY
01-08-2007, 02:24 PM
So what's the question? If I were an O player under Herm would I be excited, would I beleive.

Well first off, I'd be greatly relieved to finally know that whatever I worked my ass off to accomplish wouldn't be given away 30 seconds later by the D.

Second, I'd believe in the team and concentrate on performing my job duties to perfection.

Third, if I had any reservations, I'd either dispute them with the coaching staff, or give them an opportunity to convince me. And once I made the decision to take the field under them, I'd never lay any of my own failures off on them.

So to you belief is a choice, that's where we disagree. I agree with you on most of your other takes.

|Zach|
01-08-2007, 02:25 PM
I do have place the blame firmly on Herm for writing up the ill-conceived 'have the O-lineman stomp on the QB's foot on goal-to-go' play.

Any idiot could see that wasn't gonna pay big dividends.
It wasn't even the right call. The stomp was supposed to come from the weak side.

BIG_DADDY
01-08-2007, 02:27 PM
I do have place the blame firmly on Herm for writing up the ill-conceived 'have the O-lineman stomp on the QB's foot on goal-to-go' play.

Any idiot could see that wasn't gonna pay big dividends.


LMAO Oh brother. Nobody is blaming Herm for everything dude. I just think he has a real lack of vision on the O side of the ball. I also don't think he is the guy who can take us to the promised land.

Hope we can pick up Cowhers next year.

Baby Lee
01-08-2007, 02:28 PM
So to you belief is a choice, that's where we disagree. I agree with you on most of your other takes.
'Belief' may or may not be a choice.
Taking the field with your teammates under the supervision of your coaching staff is definitely a choice.
Airing grievances after the fact is, also, definitely a choice.

KCJohnny
01-08-2007, 02:28 PM
It has never been a mystery what this team was trying to do. It hasn't mattered when we executed.

The other teams knew our game plan in our 9 wins.

None of those 9 wins were in a playoff game. Its another level in the playoffs. And even if your thesis is correct, I still say the O had ZERO confidence. They did not believe in the game plan and you could see their morale go down the toilet as we tried the same brain dead play selection over and over and over.

|Zach|
01-08-2007, 02:30 PM
None of those 9 wins were in a playoff game. Its another level in the playoffs. And even if your thesis is correct, I still say the O had ZERO confidence. They did not believe in the game plan and you could see their morale go down the toilet as we tried the same brain dead play selection over and over and over.
So ehhh, you don't like that they knew our game plan.

So we shouldn't have gone with Larry Johnson. Maybe you would have fielded the the perfect gameplan around Sammie Parker?

ROFL :hmmm:

Logical
01-08-2007, 02:31 PM
...
"I'm going to simplify the offense" - Herm

I guess next year we give up on passing the ball altogether.

KCJohnny
01-08-2007, 02:35 PM
So ehhh, you don't like that they knew our game plan.

So we shouldn't have gone with Larry Johnson. Maybe you would have fielded the the eprfect gameplan around Sammie Parker?

ROFL :hmmm:

LJ gained 1750 yards in 2005 in only 9 games because KC was a pass-to-establish the run team. Teams HAD to respect our passing game and could not cheat up like the Colts did Saturday. This year, we barely had 3,000 passing yards and LJ set an NFL for carries to get the same amount of yards he got in 9 games in '05. Do the math.

Baby Lee
01-08-2007, 02:35 PM
None of those 9 wins were in a playoff game. Its another level in the playoffs. And even if your thesis is correct, I still say the O had ZERO confidence. They did not believe in the game plan and you could see their morale go down the toilet as we tried the same brain dead play selection over and over and over.
I dunno, it looked like their morale was cranking up as Dante ran that desperate crossing draw for a 1st down, and Bigfoot hauled in the 1-handed 2pt conversion to bring them within 8.
Then the Colts pulled out Herm's game plan because Manning was getting pwned, and actually executed it.
Then TrINT started back to throwing to the other team.

FAX
01-08-2007, 02:36 PM
I have determined that Herm will pee on your leg and tell you he's watering flowers.

If you have the sense of an invertebrate, after a while you get tired of wet shoes. Herm is right in saying we will have to dumb down the offense because it will take some stupid mothers to buy into his bull.

FAX

Baby Lee
01-08-2007, 02:37 PM
LJ gained 1750 yards in 2005 in only 9 games because KC was a pass-to-establish the run team. Teams HAD to respect our passing game and could not cheat up like the Colts did Saturday. This year, we barely had 3,000 passing yards and LJ set an NFL for carries to get the same amount of yards he got in 9 games in '05. Do the math.
Is Richardson 'x' and Roaf 'y,' or the other way around?

Baby Lee
01-08-2007, 02:38 PM
I have determined that Herm will pee on your leg and tell you he's watering flowers.

If you have the sense of an invertebrate, after a while you get tired of wet shoes. Herm is right in saying we will have to dumb down the offense because it will take some stupid mothers to buy into his bull.

FAX
It's a damn shame. . . FAX went all penchief on us.

Chiefnj
01-08-2007, 02:38 PM
None of those 9 wins were in a playoff game. Its another level in the playoffs. And even if your thesis is correct, I still say the O had ZERO confidence. They did not believe in the game plan and you could see their morale go down the toilet as we tried the same brain dead play selection over and over and over.


Why shouldn't they have beleived in the game plan early in the game?

If the teams that have beaten Indy have simply lined up and smashed them in the mouth up the middle, why should a team with Waters, Weigman, Roaf and Johnson not believe they could the same?

The other thing people are ignoring is the field position. Except for the interception, the best field position they had was their own 20 yard line.

Plus, if you look at all possessions in the first half, Solari called pass on first down half the time. People want to say run, run, punt - but he did try to vary up the calls. It wasn't his fault Trent got clobbered, receivers dropped balls, etc.

FAX
01-08-2007, 02:44 PM
It's a damn shame. . . FAX went all penchief on us.

I feel bad about it, Mr. Baby Lee. I really do. No offense whatsoever intended to Mr. penchief.

In the early going, I was all for Herm. I liked what he was saying when he joined the organization. But I've come to realize that Herm is a media creation. Nothing more, nothing less. He's good fodder for conversation and that's about it. He's an egocentric, psychopathic liar with megalomaniacal tendencies and a face like a shark.

I have to give him credit for some good defensive draft picks, though.

FAX

BIG_DADDY
01-08-2007, 02:47 PM
'Belief' may or may not be a choice.
Taking the field with your teammates under the supervision of your coaching staff is definitely a choice.
Airing grievances after the fact is, also, definitely a choice.

1. I would agree that LJ talks too much. That being said I am more than sure he is frusterated as hell especailly after playing on this O last season.

2. You said yourself you cannot bring your best game unless you believe. Belief is not a choice. Do you one day wake up and say I think I will believe in god now? Not unless everything you have experienced has led you to believe there truly is one.

One of the other things in life that is like that is attraction. You don't just look at a women and say I think I will be attracted to this one. You either are attracted to them or you're not, it's not a choice.

It's one person's job to create belief in the Chiefs game plan and that person is Herm. He failed miserably in creating that. Did he drop the balls, no. Did he step on Trent's foot, no. My problem moving forward with Herm at this point is that most anyone worth having on offense isn't going to want to play in KC and that's a problem. Looks like Tony G is already looking to move on. Simplifying the O isn't the answer either. We executed a very complex O in KC for years with awesome results. To say we need to simplify it is just an insult to those players who have already made it work. One more reason O players will probably look to leave KC. Nobody wants to put up with Herms shit after the horrific job he did of changing our offense.

KCJohnny
01-08-2007, 02:51 PM
Why shouldn't they have beleived in the game plan early in the game?

If the teams that have beaten Indy have simply lined up and smashed them in the mouth up the middle, why should a team with Waters, Weigman, Roaf and Johnson not believe they could the same?

The other thing people are ignoring is the field position. Except for the interception, the best field position they had was their own 20 yard line.

Plus, if you look at all possessions in the first half, Solari called pass on first down half the time. People want to say run, run, punt - but he did try to vary up the calls. It wasn't his fault Trent got clobbered, receivers dropped balls, etc.

I will give you credit for the dropped balls. That was inexcusable. EK drops 2 that hit him in the hands. TG drops 2. Dante drops a 5 yard pass. Pathetic. I think they were just too nervous. Maybe Herm having dinner at the Dungy's the night prior didn't exactly establish the killer instinct. I dunno.

dirk digler
01-08-2007, 02:56 PM
Exactly.

Take Indy's last 4 games. They won 2 and lost 2.

The games they lost were Jax and the Texans. Jax had 14 pass attempts and 42 rushing attempts. They didn't spread it out. They ran the ball and executed. The Texans had 42 rushing attempts and only 21 passing attempts. Again, they ran the ball almost twice as much as they threw it. Both teams ran it well.

The games that Indy lost were games where teams tried to pass. Cincy (who arguably has one of the best pass offenses in the league) had a 30:28 rush/pass split. Miami only ran 26 times and threw the ball 36 times.

The way to beat the Colts was on the ground. LJ was right - the Colts defensive players took their criticism to heart. They played with pride. The Chiefs offensive players didn't.

Herm talked about the importance of the first 5 minutes of the game. What happened in the Chiefs first 5 minutes? LJ run for zero yards. LJ run for 2 yards and a dropped 3rd down pass. They didn't even use up 5 minutes.

If you want to carry over some time, the Chiefs OPENED THE 2nd DRIVE WITH A PASS. Yes it's true, they passed it on first down. It was a short pass to Tony G, and was complete. (I'm sure those people bashing Green will contend it was a miraculous catch on a ball thrown 8 yards short, but a catch nonetheless). LJ got the ball on 2nd down and gained an amazing one yard.

Where was LJ's pride and professionalism?

I didn't start the thread to bash LJ, but IMHO he didn't give the best effort because he didn't believe in the scheme.

Herm has lost control and couldn't motivate the offense. That's not good because just as the D is showing some improvement, the offense needs a complete rebuild.

You forget to mention several important things. First those 2 losses were on the road, the Colts were 8-0 at home, and the Chiefs have been horrid on the road.

I said as much last week when everyone thought this was a gimme game.

Baby Lee
01-08-2007, 02:57 PM
I will give you credit for the dropped balls. That was inexcusable. EK drops 2 that hit him in the hands. TG drops 2. Dante drops a 5 yard pass. Pathetic. I think they were just too nervous. Maybe Herm having dinner at the Dungy's the night prior didn't exactly establish the killer instinct. I dunno.
I'm fairly sure you are at least partially joking, but this post is the exemplar for why I'm calling BS on a lot of the Herm-bashing.

"Sure X, effed up. And sure, Y effed up royally too, but you have to understand Z. And that means it's Herm's fault because [some new exotic tangent]."

Sure, Dahmer cooked and ate the gay prostitutes he lured to his house, but you gotta remember, his mom could be very unsupportive of his hopes and dreams.


BE MEN, THAT'S ALL.

FAX
01-08-2007, 02:58 PM
I will give you credit for the dropped balls. That was inexcusable. EK drops 2 that hit him in the hands. TG drops 2. Dante drops a 5 yard pass. Pathetic. I think they were just too nervous. Maybe Herm having dinner at the Dungy's the night prior didn't exactly establish the killer instinct. I dunno.

We've come out flat in several games this year, Mr. KCJohnny. Cincy and the Cards come to mind. There were others, as well.

Maybe it was nerves, maybe it was lack of reps due to the changes Herm has made in the offense's practice schedule, who knows? I think it's the coach's responsibility to have his players ready to play. I know our guys can perform better. We all do. That's one of the main reasons the performance was do disheartening. A gaggle of morons overdosed on 'ludes attempting to break into a mall with nerf guns would be more entertaining.

It really doesn't matter now. Herm admitted in his post-game presser that he didn't know what happened out there. That pretty much sums it up.

FAX

Baby Lee
01-08-2007, 03:01 PM
We've come out flat in several games this year, Mr. KCJohnny. Cincy and the Cards come to mind. There were others, as well.

Maybe it was nerves, maybe it was lack of reps due to the changes Herm has made in the offense's practice schedule, who knows? I think it's the coach's responsibility to have his players ready to play. I know our guys can perform better. We all do. That's one of the main reasons the performance was do disheartening. A gaggle of morons overdosed on 'ludes attempting to break into a mall with nerf guns would be more entertaining.

It really doesn't matter now. Herm admitted in his post-game presser that he didn't know what happened out there. That pretty much sums it up.

FAX
Ahem! I believe the proper nomenclature for a grouping on morons is 'parliament.'

A parliament of morons.

FAX
01-08-2007, 03:03 PM
I'm fairly sure you are at least partially joking, but this post is the exemplar for why I'm calling BS on a lot of the Herm-bashing.

"Sure X, effed up. And sure, Y effed up royally too, but you have to understand Z. And that means it's Herm's fault because [some new exotic tangent]."

Sure, Dahmer cooked and ate the gay prostitutes he lured to his house, but you gotta remember, his mom could be very unsupportive of his hopes and dreams.


BE MEN, THAT'S ALL.

Okay, now I'm really interested in your opinion, Mr. Baby Lee, as I have the utmost respect for your views on all matters.

Although it may well be, this is not intended to be a dumbass question by any means. But, what percentage of the blame for the loss in Indy would you place on A) the players, B) the play-calling, or C) Herm's approach to game management and preparation?

Please advise and thanks.

Oh, and by the way, it is well known that Dahmer's parents later admitted that they saw the signs of his mental problems early on and did nothing to help him. Apparently, they were a fairly ignorant bunch.

FAX

Baby Lee
01-08-2007, 03:14 PM
Okay, now I'm really interested in your opinion, Mr. Baby Lee, as I have the utmost respect for your views on all matters.

Although it may well be, this is not intended to be a dumbass question by any means. But, what percentage of the blame for the loss in Indy would you place on A) the players, B) the play-calling, or C) Herm's approach to game management and preparation?

Please advise and thanks.

Oh, and by the way, it is well known that Dahmer's parents later admitted that they saw the signs of his mental problems early on and did nothing to help him. Apparently, they were a fairly ignorant bunch.

FAX
I'd need to know more about how informed Herm was about the lack of confidence his 'playmakers' had in the gameplan.
If he was aware and didn't take steps to stave it off, including by replacing malcontents. I'd say 45-45 players/Herm, and 10 play-calling.
If they kept it from him, I'd say 70-20 players/Herm, and again 10 play-calling.

In short, I'd say it was 90% uninspired execution, with a difference in analysis regarding how tuned in Herm was to the mutiny. I mean, who expects a mutiny in a freaking playoff game? Save that for the off-season, pre-season, some non-conference game. . .

BIG_DADDY
01-08-2007, 03:18 PM
I'd need to know more about how informed Herm was about the lack of confidence his 'playmakers' had in the gameplan.
. .

You mean like LJ previously saying our offense was completely predictable?

Chiefnj
01-08-2007, 03:21 PM
I'd need to know more about how informed Herm was about the lack of confidence his 'playmakers' had in the gameplan.
If he was aware and didn't take steps to stave it off, including by replacing malcontents. I'd say 45-45 players/Herm, and 10 play-calling.
If they kept it from him, I'd say 70-20 players/Herm, and again 10 play-calling.

In short, I'd say it was 90% uninspired execution, with a difference in analysis regarding how tuned in Herm was to the mutiny. I mean, who expects a mutiny in a freaking playoff game? Save that for the off-season, pre-season, some non-conference game. . .


Isn't it Herm's job to get them believing? Shouldn't he have had an inkling as to the non-believing in light of the players public comments made over the last few weeks regarding the predictability of the offense?

Baby Lee
01-08-2007, 03:27 PM
Isn't it Herm's job to get them believing? Shouldn't he have had an inkling as to the non-believing in light of the players public comments made over the last few weeks regarding the predictability of the offense?
Sure, but it's not like he's training infants.

I'm not sure where people are on this whole thing.

Is the consensus that this 'record setting O' of the past was actually composed of subpar performers all along, and the only things propelling it to greatness was a bunch of weepy hugs from an old man, and whizz bang razzle-dazzle triple reverses?
Were they truly a bunch of limp-dicks that only DV had the magic to convince that they had teh powa!!

BIG_DADDY
01-08-2007, 03:29 PM
Sure, but it's not like he's training infants.

I'm not sure where people are on this whole thing.

Is the consensus that this 'record setting O' of the past was actually composed of subpar performers all along, and the only things propelling it to greatness was a bunch of weepy hugs from an old man, and whizz bang razzle-dazzle triple reverses?
Were they truly a bunch of limp-dicks that only DV had the magic to convince that they had teh powa!!

WOW

Baby Lee
01-08-2007, 03:30 PM
WOW
Is that a yes?
You're amazed at how concisely I encapsulated the situation?

HemiEd
01-08-2007, 03:32 PM
Is the consensus that this 'record setting O' of the past was actually composed of subpar performers all along, and the only things propelling it to greatness was a bunch of weepy hugs from an old man, and whizz bang razzle-dazzle triple reverses?
Were they truly a bunch of limp-dicks that only DV had the magic to convince that they had teh powa!!


finally some love for Dick Vermeil!

FAX
01-08-2007, 03:32 PM
Sure, but it's not like he's training infants.

I'm not sure where people are on this whole thing.

Is the consensus that this 'record setting O' of the past was actually composed of subpar performers all along, and the only things propelling it to greatness was a bunch of weepy hugs from an old man, and whizz bang razzle-dazzle triple reverses?
Were they truly a bunch of limp-dicks that only DV had the magic to convince that they had teh powa!!

ROFL

Awesome. You are a poster of inimitable wit and skill, Mr. Baby Lee.

My take is this. Everybody in the world knew what we were going to do. Including, unfortunately, the enemy in this case.

Sun Tzu teaches us that, "Attack him where he is unprepared, appear where you are not expected". It's really that simple to me.

FAX

Chiefnj
01-08-2007, 03:33 PM
Sure, but it's not like he's training infants.

I'm not sure where people are on this whole thing.

Is the consensus that this 'record setting O' of the past was actually composed of subpar performers all along, and the only things propelling it to greatness was a bunch of weepy hugs from an old man, and whizz bang razzle-dazzle triple reverses?
Were they truly a bunch of limp-dicks that only DV had the magic to convince that they had teh powa!!

I have no proof of my speculation, but I think their spirit was broken a bit during the regular season. I also think that Herm's waivering on Green and his statement that any player could be pulled at any moment probably hit some of the vets as being wrong. These are guys who have been together for a few years, they were here before Herm and probably have more loyalty to each other than to Herm for what they accomplished over the past 5 years. I think they probably thought it was wrong for the coach to make a statement that could make the starting QB look over his shoulder after every play.

Baby Lee
01-08-2007, 03:37 PM
I have no proof of my speculation, but I think their spirit was broken a bit during the regular season. I also think that Herm's waivering on Green and his statement that any player could be pulled at any moment probably hit some of the vets as being wrong. These are guys who have been together for a few years, they were here before Herm and probably have more loyalty to each other than to Herm for what they accomplished over the past 5 years. I think they probably thought it was wrong for the coach to make a statement that could make the starting QB look over his shoulder after every play.
And the inability to get over that trifling kind of shit in the EFFING PLAYOFFS is what makes the Chiefs the Chiefs.

Ooohh, booo-hooo, he doesn't respect our QB, who's never won an important game in his life, and whose skills are eroding before our eyes, but has such a winning smile. My spirit is broken, I shall stomp on my QB's foot and drop his passes to prove that bad man wrong.

Chiefnj
01-08-2007, 03:40 PM
And the inability to get over that trifling kind of shit in the EFFING PLAYOFFS is what makes the Chiefs the Chiefs.

Ooohh, booo-hooo, he doesn't respect our QB, who's never won an important game in his life, and whose skills are eroding before our eyes, but has such a winning smile. My spirit is broken, I shall stomp on my QB's foot and drop his passes to prove that bad man wrong.

They are professional pampered athletes.

BIG_DADDY
01-08-2007, 03:41 PM
Is that a yes?
You're amazed at how concisely I encapsulated the situation?

Amazed at how you trivialize what we had for an offense. Best O line in the league. Priest and TG. Bunch of weepy hugs from and old man? LMAO That's rough dude. AT least DV has been there before. At least DV had us almost at 16 - 0. It was the 2nd rated O for years. It is what it is. To call these guys a bunch of limp dicks and then defend Herm is a bit ridiculous if you ask me. At the very least people didn't know every play we were running. My only hope is that after this next year we can pick up Cowhers. I agree more with the philosophy of what CP was thinking when he brought DV here to begin with. Go with somebody who has done it before and give them the tools they need. DV could have succeeded in winning everything if we just could have had some decent drafts.

BIG_DADDY
01-08-2007, 03:43 PM
For the record I would take DV over Herm as a head coach any day irregardless of what LJ thinks.

Baby Lee
01-08-2007, 03:44 PM
Amazed at how you trivialize what we had for an offense. Best O line in the league. Priest and TG. Bunch of weepy hugs from and old man? LMAO That's rough dude.
You're the one trivializing it.
You're the one who's saying Herm didn't fellate them enough, and they fell to pieces.
You're the one whose position is, if Herm doesn't will them to total belief, they don't have the skill to achieve on ability, ethic and execution alone.
I'm the one who had actual expectations for them to either perform like MEN or face their failure like MEN.

Instead we get "well Herm never told me I was pretty."

Crush
01-08-2007, 04:11 PM
Gut the team and fire the coaches.

BigRedChief
01-08-2007, 04:14 PM
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v645/WarpaintOne/44444.jpg

BIG_DADDY
01-08-2007, 04:20 PM
You're the one trivializing it.
You're the one who's saying Herm didn't fellate them enough, and they fell to pieces.
You're the one whose position is, if Herm doesn't will them to total belief, they don't have the skill to achieve on ability, ethic and execution alone.
I'm the one who had actual expectations for them to either perform like MEN or face their failure like MEN.

Instead we get "well Herm never told me I was pretty."

Belief is belief, I don't think this has anything to do with Herm telling them they're pretty. Players tried to voice their concerns but they were not addressed and nothing changed. The belief wasn't there and you got what we saw last Saturday.

KCJohnny
01-08-2007, 04:30 PM
I'd need to know more about how informed Herm was about the lack of confidence his 'playmakers' had in the gameplan.
If he was aware and didn't take steps to stave it off, including by replacing malcontents. I'd say 45-45 players/Herm, and 10 play-calling.
If they kept it from him, I'd say 70-20 players/Herm, and again 10 play-calling.

In short, I'd say it was 90% uninspired execution, with a difference in analysis regarding how tuned in Herm was to the mutiny. I mean, who expects a mutiny in a freaking playoff game? Save that for the off-season, pre-season, some non-conference game. . .

I did not suggest mutiny, but a dearth of confidence in the game plan. It must have been a bit challenging to get up for a game plan that every announcer, writer, fan and enemy player were talking about on TV, radio, internet, press, etc..

I guess we now know what the hell the Colts were doing in the "closed practice sessions".

penchief
01-08-2007, 04:37 PM
Anybody who thinks LJ doesn't want to win is wacked. He may say some things you don't want him to but bottom line is the the guy wants to compete and win. All season when we have went to a pass first run second scheme it has opened up the running game. In spite of that with all his wisdom Herm has returned to a run first throw second plan that continued to fail. I have no confidence we are ever going to win it all under Herm.

You're right. LJ is a football player and competitor first. He wants to win and wants to be among the greats.

I also have to believe that Herm is more willing than Vermeil to correct his shortcomings. I can only hope that's true.

I'm not comfortable with LJ being so outspoken but I can't say that I disagree with anything he's said. Why do we have to live with extremes? Why can't we have an offense that maximizes it's assets without being predictable?

We have maybe the most explosive offensive talent in the NFL and possibly the most explosive offensive talent in Chiefs history, yet, under Vermeil we stifled his development and under Edwards we're misusing him to cover for our other deficiencies.

Let's get us some hogs up front to clear the way for Larry and let's get him into the second level where he can punish linebackers and outrun defensive backs.

It's not rocket science. Let's maximize our assets.

Run blocking offensive linemen should be our off-season priority along with a disruptive DT, IMO.

kcfanXIII
01-08-2007, 04:43 PM
ALL ABOUT PLAY CALLING

Baby Lee
01-08-2007, 04:58 PM
Belief is belief, I don't think this has anything to do with Herm telling them they're pretty. Players tried to voice their concerns but they were not addressed and nothing changed. The belief wasn't there and you got what we saw last Saturday.
1. Do you think ability, ethic and execution can make up for a dearth of this mythical 'belief?'
2. Do you think that the Chiefs' offensive personnel [particularly the playmakers] have the ability, ethic and execution to have at least some success, even if they aren't completely sold on the gameplan?

Guru
01-08-2007, 05:01 PM
Well, Herm isn't calling plays.
Sure he isn't. :rolleyes: I bet he is changing them and making it known what he expects to be called though.

BIG_DADDY
01-08-2007, 05:04 PM
1. Do you think ability, ethic and execution can make up for a dearth of this mythical 'belief?'
2. Do you think that the Chiefs' offensive personnel [particularly the playmakers] have the ability, ethic and execution to have at least some success, even if they aren't completely sold on the gameplan?

Certainly, I also believe after they muffed some plays and couldn't get into a rhythm it was much harder to get back in the game because the belief in this predictable play calling simply wasn't there.

penchief
01-08-2007, 05:15 PM
Certainly, I also believe after they muffed some plays and couldn't get into a rhythm it was much harder to get back in the game because the belief in this predictable play calling simply wasn't there.

During the game one of the announcers commented that Trent Green was lobbying to throw play action on first down but got rebuffed.

If your star quarterback, your star running back, and your star tight end don't have confidence in the offensive game plan how does any coach think that's a recipe for success?

Guru
01-08-2007, 05:21 PM
During the game one of the announcers commented that Trent Green was lobbying to throw play action on first down but got rebuffed.

If your star quarterback, your star running back, and your star tight end don't have confidence in the offensive game plan how does any coach think that's a recipe for success?
You need to visit Hermieville.

FAX
01-08-2007, 05:24 PM
During the game one of the announcers commented that Trent Green was lobbying to throw play action on first down but got rebuffed.

If your star quarterback, your star running back, and your star tight end don't have confidence in the offensive game plan how does any coach think that's a recipe for success?

I was unaware of this, Mr. penchief. This really happened?

FAX

MahiMike
01-08-2007, 05:28 PM
Amazed at how you trivialize what we had for an offense. Best O line in the league. Priest and TG. Bunch of weepy hugs from and old man? LMAO That's rough dude. AT least DV has been there before. At least DV had us almost at 16 - 0. It was the 2nd rated O for years. It is what it is. To call these guys a bunch of limp dicks and then defend Herm is a bit ridiculous if you ask me. At the very least people didn't know every play we were running. My only hope is that after this next year we can pick up Cowhers. I agree more with the philosophy of what CP was thinking when he brought DV here to begin with. Go with somebody who has done it before and give them the tools they need. DV could have succeeded in winning everything if we just could have had some decent drafts.

Here! Here! Buy that man a beer.

Adept Havelock
01-08-2007, 05:37 PM
I was unaware of this, Mr. penchief. This really happened?

FAX

Early on in the game, one of the announcers said he was sure something like this happened, but did not state direct knowledge of it...IIRC. Granted, my memory of the game grows increasingly hazy, as I started doing my impression of Bung from Wizard of Id sometime in the late 1'st quarter.

KCJohnny
01-08-2007, 05:38 PM
During the game one of the announcers commented that Trent Green was lobbying to throw play action on first down but got rebuffed.

If your star quarterback, your star running back, and your star tight end don't have confidence in the offensive game plan how does any coach think that's a recipe for success?

:toast:

FAX
01-08-2007, 05:39 PM
Early on in the game, one of the announcers said he was sure something like this happened, but did not state direct knowledge of it...IIRC. Granted, my memory of the game grows increasingly hazy, as I started doing my impression of Bung from Wizard of Id sometime in the late 1'st quarter.

Thanks, Mr. Adept Havelock. Astonishing, if accurate.

I'm getting a migraine and an urge to pee in the corner.

FAX

BIG_DADDY
01-08-2007, 05:41 PM
What I don't understand is how you call a guys number over 400 times and then have the audacity to not want to listen to a thing he has to say. I'd be pissed off too.

You have a QB who has been rated 2nd for a number of years and you don't want to listen to a thing he has to say.

Lastly you have the #1 TE in the history of the game and.........well you get the idea. Hell he's running him out of town.

htismaqe
01-08-2007, 06:56 PM
During the game one of the announcers commented that Trent Green was lobbying to throw play action on first down but got rebuffed.

If your star quarterback, your star running back, and your star tight end don't have confidence in the offensive game plan how does any coach think that's a recipe for success?

I refuse to feel sorry for these spoiled baby assholes.

If the coach's gameplan was the ONLY thing standing between you guys and the MOST EMBARRASSING PLAYOFF OFFENSIVE PERFORMANCE IN TEAM HISTORY, you IMPROVISE and worry about the fallout with the coach later.

You don't give up and let the other team win.

****ing crybabies.

KCJohnny
01-08-2007, 06:57 PM
I guess we know what the Colts were doing in the "closed practice sessions" now...

Count Alex's Losses
01-08-2007, 07:00 PM
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v645/WarpaintOne/44444.jpg

That's hilarious.

Count Alex's Losses
01-08-2007, 07:02 PM
For the record I would take DV over Herm as a head coach any day irregardless of what LJ thinks.

Why?

Dick's pussies are why we are currently talking about next year.

Baby Lee
01-08-2007, 07:03 PM
I refuse to feel sorry for these spoiled baby assholes.

If the coach's gameplan was the ONLY thing standing between you guys and the MOST EMBARRASSING PLAYOFF OFFENSIVE PERFORMANCE IN TEAM HISTORY, you IMPROVISE and worry about the fallout with the coach later.

You don't give up and let the other team win.

****ing crybabies.
Precisely the central point of my ravings herein.
With the addendum, even if you don't have the balls to improvise, execute the shitty gameplan and see what it gets you.

I mean my GOD!! You drop wide open passes, then bitch about the gameplan? Unless that WAS the gameplan, and Herm had kidnapped your children to make sure you execute it, that's just bullshit.

:clap:

Extra Point
01-08-2007, 07:05 PM
The waiter at the restaurant indicated that he overheard Herm say "Heads you win, tails I run" after Lovie Smith had flipped the coin.

chiefsfan1963
01-08-2007, 07:09 PM
I refuse to feel sorry for these spoiled baby assholes.

If the coach's gameplan was the ONLY thing standing between you guys and the MOST EMBARRASSING PLAYOFF OFFENSIVE PERFORMANCE IN TEAM HISTORY, you IMPROVISE and worry about the fallout with the coach later.

You don't give up and let the other team win.

****ing crybabies.

dude you f**kin clueless.

chiefsfan1963
01-08-2007, 07:09 PM
I refuse to feel sorry for these spoiled baby assholes.

If the coach's gameplan was the ONLY thing standing between you guys and the MOST EMBARRASSING PLAYOFF OFFENSIVE PERFORMANCE IN TEAM HISTORY, you IMPROVISE and worry about the fallout with the coach later.

You don't give up and let the other team win.

****ing crybabies.

dude you're clueless.

old_geezer
01-08-2007, 07:11 PM
Why?

Dick's pussies are why we are currently talking about next year.


Buy a clue. Herm's high school game plan is why we're talking about next year.

BIG_DADDY
01-08-2007, 07:11 PM
Why?

Dick's pussies are why we are currently talking about next year.

Because he's big to the big dance and won that's why. YOu gotta go out and get the best coach you can, Herm isn't that guy. Not to bring B-ball into it but the reason the Lakers are so successfull is they go get the best coach they can find and do their damn good job in the draft. It's a recipe for success.

Baby Lee
01-08-2007, 07:12 PM
dude you're clueless.
From the king of 'tomorrow is morning in America' throughout DV's FAILED tenure, that assesment is almost a badge of honor.

|Zach|
01-08-2007, 07:13 PM
dude you f**kin clueless.
Hey, we made the playoffs. Thats your superbowl. You should be happy.

BIG_DADDY
01-08-2007, 07:13 PM
What I don't understand is how you call a guys number over 400 times and then have the audacity to not want to listen to a thing he has to say. I'd be pissed off too.

You have a QB who has been rated 2nd for a number of years and you don't want to listen to a thing he has to say.

Lastly you have the #1 TE in the history of the game and.........well you get the idea. Hell he's running him out of town.

This is why we are looking at next season GoChiefs. You just don't piss on guys like that.

FAX
01-08-2007, 07:14 PM
It's unwise in the extreme to argue with Mr. htismaqe and Mr. Baby Lee because they are always correct in all that they post. However, it might be well to consider that Gonzo, Trent, and LJ were on the actual field of play during the actual game as it actually took place.

Dropped passes and QB footstomping notwithstanding (all games have their share of mistakes on both sides), if they were convinced both on the sideline and after the game that our offensive playcalling was too predictable to give us the best chance for a win, why would you not take them at their word?

FAX

Nelson Muntz
01-09-2007, 04:53 AM
[QUOTE=Chiefnj]From Jo-Po's article:



"I'm going to simplify the offense" - Herm


Haven't we done enough to simplify this offense. We have three plays; first down run up the middle, second down run up the middle, third and long drop back and have qb run for his life before getting sacked or throwing an incomplete pass.

Silock
01-09-2007, 06:01 AM
no he's not ... but he made it perfectly clear earlier in the year that he did not approve of Solari throwing the ball very much.


UGH. No. It was only in THAT specific situation.

Silock
01-09-2007, 06:32 AM
Looking back it's no wonder Roaf didn't want to come back.

Are you saying Willie Roaf can tell the future?

Silock
01-09-2007, 06:35 AM
LJ gained 1750 yards in 2005 in only 9 games because KC was a pass-to-establish the run team. Teams HAD to respect our passing game and could not cheat up like the Colts did Saturday. This year, we barely had 3,000 passing yards and LJ set an NFL for carries to get the same amount of yards he got in 9 games in '05. Do the math.

9 STARTS, not 9 games.

Silock
01-09-2007, 06:40 AM
Isn't it Herm's job to get them believing?

As much as we'd like to believe Hollywood, the NFL isn't about a lot of "RAH RAH RAH! GO TEAM GO!" speeches and winning one for the Gipper.

When your boss gives you an assignment at your job, is it his job to make you believe in what you're doing, or should you just do your best regardless because you're getting paid for it and you have some amount of pride and self-respect?

Silock
01-09-2007, 06:44 AM
Certainly, I also believe after they muffed some plays and couldn't get into a rhythm it was much harder to get back in the game because the belief in this predictable play calling simply wasn't there.

Which part about not believing are you talking about -- the part where Trent threw INTs or where they drove down the field and scored a TD?

Silock
01-09-2007, 06:45 AM
During the game one of the announcers commented that Trent Green was lobbying to throw play action on first down but got rebuffed.

If your star quarterback, your star running back, and your star tight end don't have confidence in the offensive game plan how does any coach think that's a recipe for success?

Absolute speculation.

Silock
01-09-2007, 06:46 AM
You have a QB who has been rated 2nd for a number of years and you don't want to listen to a thing he has to say.

That QB is NOT the same QB. He's the QB of DV's first year.

FringeNC
01-09-2007, 08:12 AM
I refuse to feel sorry for these spoiled baby assholes.

If the coach's gameplan was the ONLY thing standing between you guys and the MOST EMBARRASSING PLAYOFF OFFENSIVE PERFORMANCE IN TEAM HISTORY, you IMPROVISE and worry about the fallout with the coach later.

You don't give up and let the other team win.

****ing crybabies.

All this lack of effort crap is absolute bullshit. These guys were dropping passes because they were all trying to make a big play because they knew the game-plan sucked. Nobody, I mean nobody is going to purposefully tank on national TV in a playoff game. It's ****ing absurd.

Let's take a look at particulars: Let's see, Gonzo dropped those passes to spite Herm. Yeah, that's really in his self-interest on a national stage in a contract year. Trent Green's career is at a crossroads. Yeah, he tanked and gave up. Eddie Kennison is nearing the age when WRs are cast off. Yeah, he purposefully dropped those passes or quit or whatever you and Baby Lee's mind-reading was able to glean.

The debacle is 100% on the shoulders of Herman Edwards.

ck_IN
01-09-2007, 09:01 AM
<i>Because he's big to the big dance and won that's why. YOu gotta go out and get the best coach you can, Herm isn't that guy.</i>

And here lies a basic disagreement I've had with just about everyone on this board from the moment we hired DV. I've always held the position that DV is just about the most overrated coach to ever be involved in the game. St. Louis won in spite of DV not because of him. The GM in St. Lou had had enough of DV and forced changes. Faulk was forced on DV. Martz was forced on DV. Their DC (Lovie Smith? I forget) was brought in. The Coryell O was ressurected. The defense was revived and Tony Banks was shown the door. These things were not happening under DV previously. The only reason he came to KC was to build an offense so he could stroke his ego and try and prove it was him and not Martz that was the brains behind St. Louis.

I'm not a defender of Herm. I have little use for the guy, however his one draft was better then all five of DVs drafts put together. (Note: It's well documented that LJ was not a DV pick so I don't give DV credit for picking him)

I find it quite pathetic that Gonzo, LJ and Green are carping about the game plan after the fact. If Green can audible then why didn't he? Yo Trint, you want playaction on first down, claim you saw something and audible it. Gonzo, you don't like the gameplan? Here's a thought, try catching the ball when it hits between the two 8s on your chest. LJ, have you ever considered the exciting world of pass blocking? Just a thought. Rather then take a look in the mirror and ask themselves why they performed like dog crap they point fingers and blame the HC.

That's exactly what I would expect from the whiny, coddled, spoiled, soft as marshmellows crew that DV cultivated.

Gripe about the game plan all you want because it was shoddy, but the root of this loss goes straight to DV.

FAX
01-09-2007, 09:06 AM
I hope you're right, Mr. ck_IN. I really do.

But I'm weary of this crap. In reality, all Herm had to do was build up the defense and keep the offense intact as much as he possibly could. His comments that we're running the "same" offense is simply untrue. He expects us to believe it because he thinks we're clueless "common eyed" people. The players may be soft whiners, but the coach is an outright liar and a fraud. Still, I hope I'm wrong about him and that I find a chicken that farts big diamonds later this afternoon.

FAX

KCTitus
01-09-2007, 09:08 AM
The GM in St. Lou had had enough of DV and forced changes. Faulk was forced on DV. Martz was forced on DV. Their DC (Lovie Smith? I forget) was brought in. The Coryell O was ressurected. The defense was revived and Tony Banks was shown the door. These things were not happening under DV previously.

Good Lord...how many times must this fable be retold...you also forgot to add that DV drafted Lawrence Phillips. :rolleyes:

DV is gone, move on.

Chiefnj
01-09-2007, 09:11 AM
, but the root of this loss goes straight to DV.

ROFL

ck_IN
01-09-2007, 09:29 AM
I'm not the one that keeps bringing DV up Titus. Talk to the others who get misty eyed and long for the good old days of DV where we had a #2 O and a #32 D.

As for fable, hardly. It was all well documented at the time. I simply bring it up to counter the 'DV is a football gawd' fable. Yes he has a SB ring. So does Mike Ditka. Yes he's been to two SBs. Dan Reeves has been to 4 as has Marv Levy.

Fax I share your weariness and I have as little faith in Herm as you do. However just to play devils advocate perhaps he intended to run the same O but discovered that Roaf was gone and most everyone else on his O was two steps from social security so he improvised. Maybe? Maybe not?

Glad you find humour Chiefnj. It is the spice of life. Now lets review: we have a soft, whiny, coddled group of players, our O is aging out before our eyes, the D is stocked with aging vets because we have no young drafted talent to put in its place, we have star players griping about the gameplan but apparently having no problem with their (lack of) execution of it.

Hmm I wonder how all this came to be?

Baby Lee
01-09-2007, 09:31 AM
All this lack of effort crap is absolute bullshit. These guys were dropping passes because they were all trying to make a big play because they knew the game-plan sucked. Nobody, I mean nobody is going to purposefully tank on national TV in a playoff game. It's ****ing absurd.

Let's take a look at particulars: Let's see, Gonzo dropped those passes to spite Herm. Yeah, that's really in his self-interest on a national stage in a contract year. Trent Green's career is at a crossroads. Yeah, he tanked and gave up. Eddie Kennison is nearing the age when WRs are cast off. Yeah, he purposefully dropped those passes or quit or whatever you and Baby Lee's mind-reading was able to glean.

The debacle is 100% on the shoulders of Herman Edwards.
I guess when your argument is weak, your best bet is to mischaracterize the counter argument.
Nobody said anything about anyone failing on purpose, or to spite anyone else.
It's not even so much about WHY they failed in each particular instance.
It's about their REACTION to their own failures that pisses me off.
And your speculation that they dropped passes or whiffed on pass blocking or threw to the wrong team because they were heaving for glory [like that's a justification in the first place], is no more empirically grounded than any other take.
And the whole "100% on Herm" denouement is right out of thin air.

KCTitus
01-09-2007, 09:34 AM
As for fable, hardly. It was all well documented at the time. I simply bring it up to counter the 'DV is a football gawd' fable. Yes he has a SB ring. So does Mike Ditka. Yes he's been to two SBs. Dan Reeves has been to 4 as has Marv Levy.

The only 'documentation' was the repeating of this fable by those like you. Goebels was right about one thing...repeat a lie enough times and it becomes fact or in your case 'well documented'.

The one thing that was well documented was the chip on your shoulder about DV. Glad for you it didnt work out. Lord knows we didnt want to win the SB with DV as HC...that would have been just...awful.

FAX
01-09-2007, 09:34 AM
Hmmm. If I remember correctly, the original suck rule stated (in part) that, "you can call out anybody who sucks as long as you don't suck".

However, that rule was later amended to read, "you can call out anybody who sucks as long as they suck more than you suck."

I think the guys were operating under the revised rule in their post game interviews.

FAX

Baby Lee
01-09-2007, 09:43 AM
Hmmm. If I remember correctly, the original suck rule stated (in part) that, "you can call out anybody who sucks as long as you don't suck".

However, that rule was later amended to read, "you can call out anybody who sucks as long as they suck more than you suck."

I think the guys were operating under the revised rule in their post game interviews.

FAX
Somebody's operating under the revised rule on thread/post congruence. :p

FringeNC
01-09-2007, 09:44 AM
I guess when your argument is weak, your best bet is to mischaracterize the counter argument.
Nobody said anything about anyone failing on purpose, or to spite anyone else.
It's not even so much about WHY they failed in each particular instance.
It's about their REACTION to their own failures that pisses me off.
And your speculation that they dropped passes or whiffed on pass blocking or threw to the wrong team because they were heaving for glory [like that's a justification in the first place], is no more empirically grounded than any other take.
And the whole "100% on Herm" denouement is right out of thin air.

Whatever. They played like shit. No doubt. But the conspiracy-esque theories that they did to spite Herm, and that they didn't try...are bullshit. Why try to resort to mind-reading when we don't have to?

The guys were bitter after the game because they are used to success. What's the f'n big deal about what any of them said? To you football all comes down to hitting people in the mouth. And whoever hits harder, wins. I view it as more of a chess match between two head coaches. Have you ever blamed a Chiefs loss on anything other than Trent Green and his posse are pussies?

KCTitus
01-09-2007, 09:51 AM
Have you ever blamed a Chiefs loss on anything other than Trent Green and his posse are pussies?

Certainly...in 2003 it was Sims and Mitchell and their posse on defense, oh and Robinson.

FringeNC
01-09-2007, 09:54 AM
Certainly...in 2003 it was Sims and Mitchell and their posse on defense, oh and Robinson.

Perhaps you did, but if I remember correctly, BabyLee blamed the pussified offense for the Dallas loss last year, and said Trent couldn't win the big game.

Baby Lee
01-09-2007, 10:00 AM
Whatever. They played like shit. No doubt. But the conspiracy-esque theories that they did to spite Herm, and that they didn't try...are bullshit.
Nice 2nd move, when your insinuation that I thought the players failed out of spite is refuted, back up to insinuation that the sentiment 'exists' out there in the ether.
AHEM!! NOBODY'S saying that.
Why try to resort to mind-reading when we don't have to?
Why, because someone saw all the individual failures by identifiable persons on the field of play, and deemed it "100% on the shoulders" of the guy on the sidelines.
I guess if you view the talent as just little chess pieces the coach moves around with his mind. . . .

The guys were bitter after the game because they are used to success. What's the f'n big deal about what any of them said?
Because it matters. Discord is hella harder to fix than refining a gameplan, or training technique.

Geez, if LJ's postgame interview had been "What'evs Cuzz. My bidge is pulling the Benzo around, . . Audi!!" that wouldn't have been a big effin' deal either.

FringeNC
01-09-2007, 10:04 AM
Because it matters. Discord is hella harder to fix than refining a gameplan, or training technique.


Absurd. Every NFL team has discord in the locker room.

Edit: I love the word "refining" in context of a game-plan that was the laughingstock of the year.

Baby Lee
01-09-2007, 10:04 AM
Perhaps you did, but if I remember correctly, BabyLee blamed the pussified offense for the Dallas loss last year, and said Trent couldn't win the big game.
I don't have complete recall of everything I've ever said about the Dallas game, but I think most of my remarks centered on how you can almost NEVER give up those big swing plays and win the game. Also, I usually mated it up with the 105 INT return against the Texans from the year before.
Don't really recall rampant use of the term pussified, though.

And, more importantly, I don't say Trent CAN'T win the big game. I say he NEVER HAS, to this point, won an important game.

Pasta Giant Meatball
01-09-2007, 10:33 AM
This loss in on everybody. all coaches and players should be ashamed of themselves....the D played inspired i really can't fault them too much, but the offense pissed down thier legs. whether that was due to poor play calling doesn't matter. what matters is they didn't execute the game plan that was called. just a couple of those dropped passes going for first downs would have done wonders. losing a sure touchdown on a fluke lineman stepping on trent's foot didn't help either...just another typical KC playoff performance...ugh

chiefsfan1963
01-09-2007, 11:22 AM
<i>Because he's big to the big dance and won that's why. YOu gotta go out and get the best coach you can, Herm isn't that guy.</i>

And here lies a basic disagreement I've had with just about everyone on this board from the moment we hired DV. I've always held the position that DV is just about the most overrated coach to ever be involved in the game. St. Louis won in spite of DV not because of him. The GM in St. Lou had had enough of DV and forced changes. Faulk was forced on DV. Martz was forced on DV. Their DC (Lovie Smith? I forget) was brought in. The Coryell O was ressurected. The defense was revived and Tony Banks was shown the door. These things were not happening under DV previously. The only reason he came to KC was to build an offense so he could stroke his ego and try and prove it was him and not Martz that was the brains behind St. Louis.

I'm not a defender of Herm. I have little use for the guy, however his one draft was better then all five of DVs drafts put together. (Note: It's well documented that LJ was not a DV pick so I don't give DV credit for picking him)

I find it quite pathetic that Gonzo, LJ and Green are carping about the game plan after the fact. If Green can audible then why didn't he? Yo Trint, you want playaction on first down, claim you saw something and audible it. Gonzo, you don't like the gameplan? Here's a thought, try catching the ball when it hits between the two 8s on your chest. LJ, have you ever considered the exciting world of pass blocking? Just a thought. Rather then take a look in the mirror and ask themselves why they performed like dog crap they point fingers and blame the HC.

That's exactly what I would expect from the whiny, coddled, spoiled, soft as marshmellows crew that DV cultivated.

Gripe about the game plan all you want because it was shoddy, but the root of this loss goes straight to DV.

clueless

Mr. Laz
01-09-2007, 11:28 AM
dang ... people are getting nasty


hell, even Mr. Fax is taking a few shots.

Calcountry
01-09-2007, 12:39 PM
The sad thing is that I guess nobody on the Chiefs felt they were gonna do that. If only the media could have alerted Herm the way they alerted Indy to our gameplan.You mean, the way everyone and their brother didn't already know that the only tool we had was LJ?

KCJohnny
01-09-2007, 12:40 PM
9 STARTS, not 9 games.

That did not change my point. LJ ran out of an offense that was always a threat to pass downfield and faced very few bunched up 4-3s in 2005. This year we had only one 300 yard passing game and it took LJ 4,000,000 carries to get the same yardage he did last year. Do the math.

Calcountry
01-09-2007, 01:00 PM
I didn't like the Hire of Herm, but was willing to give him a chance. Well, he had that chance and what did he accomplish?

An embarrassing loss against the Cleveland Browns. At the end, the announcers were lamenting the fact that Herm was worried all week about this game. IOW, instead of preparing to crush the Soul of the Browns, he was setting himself up for the disaster that ensued.

Then the playoff debacle. But then, he shouldn't be too upset because his best-est Buddie gets his well deserved shot at the Super Bowl.

Calcountry
01-09-2007, 01:26 PM
Just doing my best in the face of a disingenuous question.

I make the point that grumbling about the gameplan after shitting the bed on the playing field is BS, and BD asks me if Herm is my favorite coach.

My point wasn't about whether I HEART Herm or not, it was about whining like bitches about things ostensibly out of their conrtrol AFTER getting schooled on the field, where they were the ones control.

And I'll hold to it, until someone points out where in the playbook Herm wrote up, 'TE drops pass to hands,' 'WR drops first down,' 'QB throws to receiver's feet,' 'QB throws to other team,' 'RB runs into back of line and falls down.'

THAT, I'd agree is a shitty game plan. Whose responsibility that game plan is, is not yet fully established, but I have my inklings.I agree with this, except you left out the part about the Oline blocking.

I am sure that that wasn't a part of the gameplan either.

I am sure that Jax would have passed more in thier game against Indy had them fools stacked the box the way they did us.

They were keying on Johnson from the go, it had been hyped all week. It is the coaches job to out think his opponent. That is why, and I am on record here at CP calling for it, passing should have been the staple of our offense in the first half. They should have GAMEPLANNED LJ as a Decoy until, or unless we had the lead.

That is what I would have done.

Whatever happened to Tony Gonzalez, oh yeah, we gameplanned him. He makes a great blocker in the maxprotect set.