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Count Zarth
01-10-2007, 11:31 AM
One of these things is not like the other:


Jordan Black - 13 sacks allowed
Brian Waters - 2.5 sacks allowed
Casey Wiegmann - 1.5 sacks allowed
Will Shields - 6 sacks allowed
John Welbourn - 5 sacks allowed (in 9 games...shitty)
Chris Terry - 0 sacks allowed (played sparingly, but still nice)
Chris Bober - 0.5 sacks allowed
Kyle Turley - 2.5 sacks allowed

Redrum_69
01-10-2007, 11:33 AM
Will Shields is going to the Pro Bowl...and Jordan Black isnt going...


but Black has more sacks..so he should go


If Black played for the defense...hes be way up on that list....

Rain Man
01-10-2007, 11:34 AM
If only we could find a pattern here. If only...

'Hamas' Jenkins
01-10-2007, 11:34 AM
13 f*cking sacks allowed...jesus christ.

Count Zarth
01-10-2007, 11:35 AM
13 f*cking sacks allowed...jesus christ.

Yeah that's pretty awful. Even when you consider that he gave up 4.5 from RT opening day.....it's not good.

CoMoChief
01-10-2007, 11:36 AM
Will Shields declined this season. I dont see him playing next season or even why he'd want to.

Redrum_69
01-10-2007, 11:36 AM
Chris Terry should have at least a sack or two...thats the difference

'Hamas' Jenkins
01-10-2007, 11:37 AM
Yeah that's pretty awful. Even when you consider that he gave up 4.5 from RT opening day.....it's not good.

Also considering that he had help on nearly every passing play. God, Black sucks.

noa
01-10-2007, 11:37 AM
I can't believe Black allowed less than one a game

FAX
01-10-2007, 11:38 AM
Not to mention all the pressures and knockdowns and wild-ass, scary faces that got made at our QB.

FAX

Mecca
01-10-2007, 11:39 AM
Of course this also doesn't account for how many times our guys got manhandled in run blocking......Casey Wiegman had this happen alot.

'Hamas' Jenkins
01-10-2007, 11:42 AM
Of course this also doesn't account for how many times our guys got manhandled in run blocking......Casey Wiegman had this happen alot.

Who led the league in individual sacks allowed?

Count Zarth
01-10-2007, 11:44 AM
Who led the league in individual sacks allowed?

Good question.

Even Gallery gave up "only" 10.5.

Count Zarth
01-10-2007, 11:44 AM
Heck Walter Jones gave up 10.5. Down year for him.

'Hamas' Jenkins
01-10-2007, 11:46 AM
Good question.

Even Gallery gave up "only" 10.5.

Link?

Count Zarth
01-10-2007, 11:46 AM
Langston Walker...10.75. Ouch.

FAX
01-10-2007, 11:46 AM
So was Jordan "Get A Sack" Black the NFL leader in this category, or no?

FAX

Count Zarth
01-10-2007, 11:46 AM
Link?
http://snap.stats.com/stats/nflinfo/playerstats.asp?id=6761&Submit=Go

Over-Head
01-10-2007, 11:49 AM
One of these things is not like the other:


Jordan Black - 13 sacks allowed
Brian Waters - 2.5 sacks allowed
Casey Wiegmann - 1.5 sacks allowed
Will Shields - 6 sacks allowed
John Welbourn - 5 sacks allowed (in 9 games...shitty)
Chris Terry - 0 sacks allowed (played sparingly, but still nice)
Chris Bober - 0.5 sacks allowed
Kyle Turley - 2.5 sacks allowed

Too bad our OL couldn't have done this good :banghead:

Fried Meat Ball!
01-10-2007, 11:50 AM
What's average for a left tackle?

That's what we need to find. DEs get more sacks than DTs, so it would make sense that LT and RT give up more than LG, C, and RG... so what's the average before we talk about how crappy Black is...


Not that I'm saying he's good, just that MAYBE the numbers are skewed because we're comparing apples to oranges. Or at least apples ... to... a different kind of apple.

Mecca
01-10-2007, 11:52 AM
GoChiefs going through there is yet to find someone who gave up more than Black.....that should tell you something.

'Hamas' Jenkins
01-10-2007, 11:52 AM
The most Roaf ever gave up was 9.5. The most Pace ever gave up was 8.5

Count Zarth
01-10-2007, 11:52 AM
What's average for a left tackle?


I've looked around and so far I can't find a player that's given up more sacks than Black.

Oakland's OTs only gave up 10 or so apiece...

Count Zarth
01-10-2007, 11:57 AM
Buffalo's LT Mike Gandy came close - 12.5 sacks

Fried Meat Ball!
01-10-2007, 12:00 PM
I've looked around and so far I can't find a player that's given up more sacks than Black.

Oakland's OTs only gave up 10 or so apiece...
So he's bad, but until we know where the league average, we can't really know HOW bad, IMO.

And trying not to be a Black apologist, I think the dude's been really hampered by being moved all over the line. Everyone says that one of the most important things an o-line can have is continuity, and Black has had ZERO.

Count Zarth
01-10-2007, 12:03 PM
So he's bad, but until we know where the league average, we can't really know HOW bad, IMO.

And trying not to be a Black apologist, I think the dude's been really hampered by being moved all over the line. Everyone says that one of the most important things an o-line can have is continuity, and Black has had ZERO.

Black had plenty of continuity this year. He started like 12 straight games at left tackle.

As far as average....it looks like around 7-8 sacks.

Pitt Gorilla
01-10-2007, 12:06 PM
Shields' number is pretty high.

Over-Head
01-10-2007, 12:07 PM
Oakland's OTs only gave up 10 or so apiece...
But that was Each, every damn game it seemed! :cuss:

FAX
01-10-2007, 12:07 PM
How much of this nonsense is due to Whiffey The Diaper Boy missing his blocks, Mr. GoChiefs?

Or do those count?

FAX

Count Zarth
01-10-2007, 12:10 PM
How much of this nonsense is due to Whiffey The Diaper Boy missing his blocks, Mr. GoChiefs?

Or do those count?

FAX

There are 10 sacks unaccounted for. I'm assuming those are credited to backs and tight ends.

El Jefe
01-10-2007, 12:22 PM
Wow thats a lot of sacks, Shields is definetely losing his edge. But Black that is just nasty.

Count Zarth
01-10-2007, 12:23 PM
I think we have a winnah!!! NFL SACK KING!!!

http://img72.imageshack.us/img72/7629/s6489gp1.jpg (http://imageshack.us)

FAX
01-10-2007, 12:24 PM
I think we have a winnah!!! NFL SACK KING!!!

http://img72.imageshack.us/img72/7629/s6489gp1.jpg (http://imageshack.us)

Damn.

FAX

KurtCobain
01-10-2007, 12:31 PM
We should sack black. And if we had someone to replace Shields, I'd say let him go, but we have enough trouble with our tackle situation and the fact that nobody can run with Wiegmann blocking for them.

ChiefsCountry
01-10-2007, 12:33 PM
We should sack black. And if we had someone to replace Shields, I'd say let him go, but we have enough trouble with our tackle situation and the fact that nobody can run with Wiegmann blocking for them.

Actually our right tackle was a heck of a guard when he played for Philadelphia.

Woodrow Call
01-10-2007, 12:34 PM
Is this what earned him the cover of WPI the magazine?

Count Zarth
01-10-2007, 12:35 PM
Is this what earned him the cover of WPI the magazine?

Bad timing. ROFL

http://img242.imageshack.us/img242/6513/chiefsoe4.jpg (http://imageshack.us)

KurtCobain
01-10-2007, 12:39 PM
Actually our right tackle was a heck of a guard when he played for Philadelphia.

True, but his numbers would likely match Shields' from this year. Welbourne always seems so lost on the field IMO.

crazycoffey
01-10-2007, 12:44 PM
Did black miss any games? I know he played on the right and the left side but did he get sat any time for any reason?

Iowanian
01-10-2007, 12:48 PM
HWY 65 had a stretch where he faced some pretty bad pass rushes, that helped keep his numbers down.

Think about that.

noa
01-10-2007, 12:53 PM
So is it official? Did Black officially give up the most sacks in the NFL?

Mr. Laz
01-10-2007, 01:01 PM
6 sacks given up by a guard doesn't seem real good to me.

B_Ambuehl
01-10-2007, 01:02 PM
That doesn't include the 2 sacks he allowed in the playoff game either does it?

Iowanian
01-10-2007, 01:02 PM
I have to consider the Tackles playing next to the guard, the RB that doesn't pass block as well when considering that laz....even if he had obviously finally declined this season.

Count Zarth
01-10-2007, 01:05 PM
That doesn't include the 2 sacks he allowed in the playoff game either does it?

No.

Count Zarth
01-10-2007, 01:05 PM
So is it official? Did Black officially give up the most sacks in the NFL?

As near as I can figure...yes.

Count Zarth
01-10-2007, 01:06 PM
Did black miss any games? I know he played on the right and the left side but did he get sat any time for any reason?

Black started 14 games at left tackle and one game at right tackle.

TinyEvel
01-10-2007, 11:50 PM
Wouldn't a LT's sack numbers be higher for with a right handed QB, and a RT's sacks be higher for a Lefty? Assuming if someone gets by, it's usually blind to the QB, as opposed to a Tackle on the side he's facing, the QB usually sees that guy coming, a little more chance to evade.

If that theory holds, then Welbourne's numbers are "worse".

Aww, WTF, they both SUCK. REBUILDING YEAR! :cuss:

B_Ambuehl
01-10-2007, 11:56 PM
Basically what this means is our offensive live made every defense in the NFL as potent as San Diego from a pass rush perspective. Makes it tough on a quarterback.

el borracho
01-11-2007, 12:05 AM
Wow, I am truly surprised. Judging by the playoff game I would have sworn that no one on the Oline had any sack at all.

SPchief
01-11-2007, 12:10 AM
And everybody was giving Waters shit after the playoff game.

el borracho
01-11-2007, 12:15 AM
I think people were upset with him for stomping on our hearts at the Colts 3 yard line in the first half.

KCJohnny
01-11-2007, 08:35 AM
I'm not sure individual linemen can be charged with such stats, such as zone blocking schemes, pulling schemes, etc... and I would also question whether any team's majority of sacks are any different seeing a right handed QB is always going to get the majority of his sacks from the RDE facing the OLT. That said, I think the average Coke machine could pass protect better than Mr. Black has this season.

InChiefsHell
01-11-2007, 08:45 AM
I think people were upset with him for stomping on our hearts at the Colts 3 yard line in the first half.
That play was just another in a long line of cluster****s that day. I'll give Waters a break. The whole game was like that play.

KCJohnny
01-11-2007, 08:53 AM
I think people were upset with him for stomping on our hearts at the Colts 3 yard line in the first half.
From a coaching standpoint, you have to blame the QB, not the OL for stepping on the QB's feet. It happens all the time. The QB can see the OL, the OL cannot see the QB. But I agree, it was a fitful attack by Murphy.

stevieray
01-11-2007, 09:20 AM
I blame DV. He had five years to replace Roaf, instead, we shuffled a guard to the most important position to play, and then wonder why he struggled?

Mr. Laz
01-11-2007, 09:25 AM
I blame DV. He had five years to replace Roaf, instead, we shuffled a guard to the most important position to play, and then wonder why he struggled?
so how would you of felt if the chiefs took a timeout from trying to rebuild the defense and went after a left tackle?

The chiefs had a 5 year window with the offense and just couldn't get the defense turned around.

stevieray
01-11-2007, 09:29 AM
so how would you of felt if the chiefs took a timeout from trying to rebuild the defense and went after a left tackle?

The chiefs had a 5 year window with the offense and just couldn't get the defense turned around.

I don't think DV had any intention of turning the defense around....I think DV wanted to prove it wasn't Mike Martz.

a timeout? one pick in five years to solidify your QB's blindside is not asking for the moon.

KCTitus
01-11-2007, 09:30 AM
I blame DV. He had five years to replace Roaf, instead, we shuffled a guard to the most important position to play, and then wonder why he struggled?

eh...it was more like 3 and their choice was Black. Granted, there was a sense of urgency after last year, but with Roaf committing pre draft to coming back, they didnt draft one this year.

I think the Roaf 'suprise' really did catch KC off guard.

Black's not the solution, I wouldnt be suprised to see an OT be KC's first round pick in 07.

stevieray
01-11-2007, 09:33 AM
I think the Roaf 'suprise' really did catch KC off guard.



more like exposed their procrastination.

siberian khatru
01-11-2007, 09:33 AM
How do they figure that stat?

If an OL is engaging a blocker and the D is blitzing a 2nd guy on his side, and he comes in unblocked because the blocking scheme didn't account for him, does the OL get penalized for not taking out two guys at once?

FAX
01-11-2007, 09:35 AM
How do they figure that stat?

If an OL is engaging a blocker and the D is blitzing a 2nd guy on his side, and he comes in unblocked because the blocking scheme didn't account for him, does the OL get penalized for not taking out two guys at once?

That's what I was asking earlier, Mr. siberian khatru. If Whiffey The Diaper Boy doesn't pick up his man, it might look like Black gave up a sack when he really didn't.

If that makes sense.

FAX

Mr. Laz
01-11-2007, 09:36 AM
I don't think DV had any intention of turning the defense around....I think DV wanted to prove it wasn't Mike Martz
WoW

so drafting Sims,Savaii,Freeman,Downing,Mitchell,battle on the on the first day was what??

Merely a diversions from his master plan of going after Mike Martz?


4 16 113 Brett Williams Florida State T
5 18 153 Jordan Black Notre Dame T
7 Kevin Sampson Syracuse
7 Jeremy Parquet Southern Mississippi
6 6 13 187 Will Svitek T Stanford

siberian khatru
01-11-2007, 09:39 AM
That's what I was asking earlier, Mr. siberian khatru. If Whiffey The Diaper Boy doesn't pick up his man, it might look like Black gave up a sack when he really didn't.

If that makes sense.

FAX

Sorry, must've missed it.

FAX ahead of me again. :)

KCJohnny
01-11-2007, 09:42 AM
I don't think DV had any intention of turning the defense around....I think DV wanted to prove it wasn't Mike Martz.


:hmmm:

Where have I heard that before?

Mr. Laz
01-11-2007, 09:46 AM
That's what I was asking earlier, Mr. siberian khatru. If Whiffey The Diaper Boy doesn't pick up his man, it might look like Black gave up a sack when he really didn't.

If that makes sense.

FAX
it does make sense

last year after Larry johnson had missed several blocks ... i believe it was in the Dallas game ... Will shields had his man blocked, but came off that good block to try and pick up the outside man as well.

clearly he didn't trust Diaper boy to do that job so he ended up trying to to more than just his job.

Shields' first guy ended up making a sack, but it wasn't Shields' fault ... not really.

FAX
01-11-2007, 09:55 AM
Sorry, must've missed it.

FAX ahead of me again. :)

No problem, Mr. siberian khatru. I'm just overjoyed with great tidings of sproknaught laughter that you are curious about this, as well.

I never got a specific answer as to the rule from Mr. GoChiefs, though. He said there were 10 sacks unaccounted for which might be Whiffey's.

FAX

FAX
01-11-2007, 09:57 AM
it does make sense

last year after Larry johnson had missed several blocks ... i believe it was in the Dallas game ... Will shields had his man blocked, but came off that good block to try and pick up the outside man as well.

clearly he didn't trust Diaper boy to do that job so he ended up trying to to more than just his job.

Shields' first guy ended up making a sack, but it wasn't Shields' fault ... not really.

Great example, Mr. Laz. Thanks. Clearly, Whiffey The Diaper Boy can take credit for some of this nonsense.

FAX

stevieray
01-11-2007, 09:57 AM
WoW

so drafting Sims,Savaii,Freeman,Downing,Mitchell,battle on the on the first day was what??

Merely a diversions from his master plan of going after Mike Martz?


4 16 113 Brett Williams Florida State T
5 18 153 Jordan Black Notre Dame T
7 Kevin Sampson Syracuse
7 Jeremy Parquet Southern Mississippi
6 6 13 187 Will Svitek T Stanford

Drafting and drafting well are two different things...how many of the players mentioned above had a huge impact on the defense? how much production form the lineman mentioned above? We all said that by the time the defense gelled, the O would be declining...

KCTitus
01-11-2007, 09:57 AM
more like exposed their procrastination.

I disagree...they took some shots and they didnt pan out...I think they drafted 3-4 OT's.

Problem is you dont, unless you are VERY lucky, replace a Roaf with a 6th round pick or 7th round pick. High level OT's are usually 1st round picks and even then, sometimes, they are busts.

stevieray
01-11-2007, 10:02 AM
I disagree...they took some shots and they didnt pan out...I think they drafted 3-4 OT's.

Problem is you dont, unless you are VERY lucky, replace a Roaf with a 6th round pick or 7th round pick. High level OT's are usually 1st round picks and even then, sometimes, they are busts.

Point taken.

does the scouting department fluctuate from coach to coach? Or is the draft just a big hit/miss venture?

Brady, Davis, Allen were all late round picks...so isn't it possible to find a decent Left tackle?

Mr. Laz
01-11-2007, 10:09 AM
Drafting and drafting well are two different things...how many of the players mentioned above had a huge impact on the defense? how much production form the lineman mentioned above? We all said that by the time the defense gelled, the O would be declining...
oh ... i agree completely, we didn't draft well at all.

my point was just that he did try to work on the defense. He didn't just go after Martz to show the world. He/They also took some minimal shots at finding an offensive tackle. But the priority was trying to fix the defense in time to help the offense, so they could only use low picks to try and find an offensive tackle.


the effort was there ... the ability to draft well wasn't.

stevieray
01-11-2007, 10:17 AM
oh ... i agree completely, we didn't draft well at all.

my point was just that he did try to work on the defense. He didn't just go after Martz to show the world. He/They also took some minimal shots at finding an offensive tackle. But the priority was trying to fix the defense in time to help the offense, so they could only use low picks to try and find an offensive tackle.


the effort was there ... the ability to draft well wasn't.

I agree. I was wrong. funny it would be with us switching roles... :)

Mr. Laz
01-11-2007, 10:19 AM
funny it would be us switching roles... :)
i was thinking that very thing

ROFL

1punkyQB
01-11-2007, 10:58 AM
Brady, Davis, Allen were all late round picks...so isn't it possible to find a decent Left tackle? There are probably a couple. Buffalo has a kid they like, Jason Peters, who went undrafted. I don't think there are as many Terrell Davises, Jamal Anderson, etc. at the position. Roaf, Pace, Walter Jones, Tarik Glenn were 1st rounders. So was John Alt. Maybe it's just easier to scout.

KCTitus
01-11-2007, 11:07 AM
Point taken.

does the scouting department fluctuate from coach to coach? Or is the draft just a big hit/miss venture?

Brady, Davis, Allen were all late round picks...so isn't it possible to find a decent Left tackle?

I honestly dont know if the scouting department changed or not, but the HC calling the shots did.

Sure, one can find late round suprises...Brady and Davis were both 6th round picks. Heck, Montana was a 3rd rounder. Now, obviously, no one knew just how special they were going to be otherwise they would have been drafted much higher, so I consider the draft process bascially nothing short of a crap shoot. Your odds of hitting a successful player drop exponentially once one gets out of the first round and even then, in the first round one can manage to pick some giant busts.

Shields wasnt that high of a draft pick, so I would think OL would be easier to draft than QB or RB, etc, however the OT positions are a step above the C/G positions thus making them a bit harder to find.

Chiefnj
01-11-2007, 11:12 AM
The scouting staff changed this past year. Didn't Kuharich take over the top spot from Styles who ran it from 2000-2005?

B_Ambuehl
01-11-2007, 11:20 AM
If an OL is engaging a blocker and the D is blitzing a 2nd guy on his side, and he comes in unblocked because the blocking scheme didn't account for him, does the OL get penalized for not taking out two guys at once.

No, the sacks given up stat is kind've like the assists stat in basketball, it does require that someone eyeball the play and use some objectivity. Those 13 sacks allowed by Black were 13 sacks in which he got beat straight up one on 1 and gave up a sack.

Interestingly enough, the left offensive tackle position is actually the most valuable in football right now. The top tackles are the highest paid NFL players period and the elite tackle is rarer than any other position.

Count Zarth
01-11-2007, 12:02 PM
The scouting staff changed this past year. Didn't Kuharich take over the top spot from Styles who ran it from 2000-2005?

Yes, and he's a much better fit, IMO. His history in New Orleans was outstanding.

InChiefsHell
01-11-2007, 12:16 PM
Interestingly enough, the left offensive tackle position is actually the most valuable in football right now. The top tackles are the highest paid NFL players period and the elite tackle is rarer than any other position.

:spock: Highest paid players in the NFL?

Mr. Laz
01-11-2007, 06:20 PM
:spock: Highest paid players in the NFL?
ignore him ... he's talking out his butt

there's only really a few highly paid left tackles ... Jones,Pace etc.

Quarterbacks are still the top dogs in salary

Basileus777
01-11-2007, 07:06 PM
Good question.

Even Gallery gave up "only" 10.5.

To be fair, Gallery only played in 10 games this year. I'm sure he would have beaten Black if he had played in all 16.