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View Full Version : Did Herm strangle DVs offense in order to kill off support for it?


jAZ
01-11-2007, 08:45 AM
Seems like Herm might have planned all along to 1/2-heartedly implement the our offense of the last 5 years in order to be able to kill it off after the season.

His comments about it being too complex for young players to master/succeed, combined with his long history of wanting to play younger players... makes me thing that, for better or worse, Herm fully intended to abandon the offense after 1 year by slowly choking it during this year.

Hoover
01-11-2007, 08:50 AM
I think it was unfair for us fans to expect a new HC to run someone elses offense.

If the Chiefs wanted to keep the offense, they should have hired Al Saunders.

Mr. Laz
01-11-2007, 09:10 AM
don't know ... but i think part of Herm was very relieved when Trent Green got hurt so he could dump it.

FringeNC
01-11-2007, 09:12 AM
Herm made some all-time idiotic remarks -- that our old offense put our defense in a "terrible bind". No you dumbshit Edwards, the offense you ran at Indy puts your defense in a terrible bind.

It was that "terrible bind" comment mid-season, as much as anything that happened on the field, that convinced me that Edwards had no business as an NFL coach.

HemiEd
01-11-2007, 09:12 AM
Very possible, it would appear to me, that the players on the offensive side of the ball do not like what is happening.

I do like the angle of younger players getting up to speed earlier, but if it means 8 punts per game, that is going to suck.

I am sure glad we have Colquitt, he may be able to withstand the over-use better than LJ.

Easy 6
01-11-2007, 09:14 AM
I have a lot of conspiracy theories running through my mind, but an NFL head coach deliberately stymying his team is CERTAINLY not one of them.

Mr. Kotter
01-11-2007, 09:14 AM
Nope.

We just got old.

FringeNC
01-11-2007, 09:17 AM
I have a lot of conspiracy theories running through my mind, but an NFL head coach deliberately stymying his team is CERTAINLY not one of them.

Yeah, but you most likely don't think having a great offense puts your defense in a "terrible bind".

Woodrow Call
01-11-2007, 09:19 AM
I seem to remember DV saying it takes a year or 2 to pickup the offense so that is a valid concern IMO given the age of the offense.

I honestly don't think Herm wanted the offense to crumble; it just happened due to age and injuries. If a different offense will allow young OL and WRs to come in and contribute then I am all for it.

If the Chiefs don't have the horses to run the DV/AS offense anymore it is pointless to keep running it.

Mr. Laz
01-11-2007, 09:20 AM
Nope.

We just got old.
every player on the offense hit the wall at the exact same time?


complete crap

KCTitus
01-11-2007, 09:21 AM
every player on the offense hit the wall at the exact same time?


complete crap

True...it was the OT's and the RG that hit the wall...It all starts on the OL.

Cave Johnson
01-11-2007, 09:29 AM
[tinfoil hat] Herm wanted Roaf to retire. And for Geathers to nearly decapitate Tr-INT. That's the ticket. [/tinfoil hat]

CupidStunt
01-11-2007, 09:36 AM
Nope. He just lost a lot of personnel -- both literally and in terms of being what they used to be.

FAX
01-11-2007, 09:40 AM
I have a lot of conspiracy theories running through my mind, but an NFL head coach deliberately stymying his team is CERTAINLY not one of them.

I don't know, Mr. scott free. Herm is a "me first" kind of fellow. And, he's been taught that a head coach has to come in and put "his stamp" on the team.

I wouldn't hesitate for a second to believe that, a) he intended all along to change the offense (because he did), b) was relieved when Trent got hurt (because it took pressure off him), and c) he jerks off a lot while looking at himself in a mirror.

FAX

FAX
01-11-2007, 09:42 AM
every player on the offense hit the wall at the exact same time?


complete crap

Somewhere, a teenaged sproknaught is laughing at us.

FAX

Chiefnj
01-11-2007, 09:45 AM
Herm and Solari were handed a finely tuned sports car with some older tires on it. Herm put his stamp on the car by telling Solari - use the same car, just don't take it out of 1st gear, ever.

Herm can stand up and say - it's the same car, I didn't change anything about the car. The veteran drivers of the car know Herm is bullsh*tting and know he isn't using the car to its fullest ability - in part because Herm likes first gear and in part because the tires couldn't handle 4th gear anymore. The players are resentful because they don't want to accept that the car can't handle 4th gear and because they know that the car can do a better job if gears 2 and 3 are used which the coach stubbornly refuses to do.

Mr. Kotter
01-11-2007, 09:48 AM
every player on the offense hit the wall at the exact same time?


complete crap
That's not what I said.

Roaf did.

Richardson did (at least in CPs mind, which is why he didn't resign him)

Shields did.

Green was ushered in by Mr. Geathers

Kennison seemed to...maybe Dunn a little bit--he didn't seem quite as effective, but he was hurt....

I think there's at least an argument to be made; kinda like the Raiders after their Superbowl appearance with Gannon.... :shrug:

jAZ
01-11-2007, 09:48 AM
True...it was the OT's and the RG that hit the wall...It all starts on the OL.
Is there any reason to scrap the offensive scheme because your OL is old? Seems like a rather convenient excuse to do what you wanted to do going in, but knew was completely impossible (from a PR standpoint) to do in pre-season.

Mr. Laz
01-11-2007, 09:50 AM
True...it was the OT's and the RG that hit the wall...It all starts on the OL.
yea ... i agree that the offensive line did struggle.


but i also think that a predictable game plan makes the offensive lines' job harder.

When a defensive lineman knows what's coming the offensive blockers always seem to look a step slow ... always look sluggish.

we've seen this offense before

KCTitus
01-11-2007, 09:53 AM
Is there any reason to scrap the offensive scheme because your OL is old? Seems like a rather convenient excuse to do what you wanted to do going in, but knew was completely impossible (from a PR standpoint) to do in pre-season.

They're going to scrap the scheme because it's not Herm's scheme...regardless of the lack of horses to run the scheme. I don't think it was done intentionally, rather, it just happened and KC didnt have the players on the OL.

KCJohnny
01-11-2007, 09:54 AM
True...it was the OT's and the RG that hit the wall...It all starts on the OL.

I have to agree. You can get by with Dilfering your skill positions if you have a great OL. But even if you have the AFC All Stars at your skill positions and have a sub-standard OL, you lose. Now, that said, you can have the entire AFC All STar team's starting offense and STILL lose if you don't use a minimum of imagination in your game planning. R2P2 (run, run, pass, punt) is a dead end scheme for just about any offense.

KCTitus
01-11-2007, 09:54 AM
...but i also think that a predictable game plan makes the offensive lines' job harder.

Absolutely...it's the reason why KC couldnt close games out or win close games many times.

Fish
01-11-2007, 09:57 AM
Herm and Solari were handed a finely tuned sports car with some older tires on it. Herm put his stamp on the car by telling Solari - use the same car, just don't take it out of 1st gear, ever.

Herm can stand up and say - it's the same car, I didn't change anything about the car. The veteran drivers of the car know Herm is bullsh*tting and know he isn't using the car to its fullest ability - in part because Herm likes first gear and in part because the tires couldn't handle 4th gear anymore. The players are resentful because they don't want to accept that the car can't handle 4th gear and because they know that the car can do a better job if gears 2 and 3 are used which the coach stubbornly refuses to do.

Don't overlook the fact that the finely tuned sports car lost both front tires right before the race.... and those 2 front tires were never adequately replaced all season... also the bumper was removed and placed on Minnesota's car, and our replacement bumper broke around the second or third lap.

The rest is pretty spot on though...

Mr. Laz
01-11-2007, 09:58 AM
Somewhere, a teenaged sproknaught is laughing at us.

FAX
i just wish i knew what that meant.

:shrug:




Dam teenagers :cuss:

KCTitus
01-11-2007, 09:59 AM
Don't overlook the fact that the finely tuned sports car lost both front tires right before the race.... and those 2 front tires were never adequately replaced all season... also the bumper was removed and placed on Minnesota's car, and our replacement bumper broke around the second or third lap.

The rest is pretty spot on though...

Go up a half a pound on the right sides and two turns of wedge...

Manila-Chief
01-11-2007, 09:59 AM
Herm made some all-time idiotic remarks -- that our old offense put our defense in a "terrible bind". No you dumbshit Edwards, the offense you ran at Indy puts your defense in a terrible bind.

It was that "terrible bind" comment mid-season, as much as anything that happened on the field, that convinced me that Edwards had no business as an NFL coach.

Yep, plus, this time last year he was saying he would leave it alone ... that Mike S. knew it well ... that Trent was like a coach and would run it well.

Green has hinted it was a change in philosophy as to why he didn't play well ... some of us can see it was a change ... therefore, Rand is wrong when he said they ran D.V.'s offense ... it was Herm's version that meant it wouldn't work. You can't run something half hearted and have it work.

Also, you guys who keep saying the O.L. was the problem ...
1. If that was true then why was Huard able to be successful behind the same line?
2. Roaf went down for 8 or 9 games in 2005 and the offense kept clicking.

LJ is correct ... if you run the ball into the middle of the formation for the first few series then of course Indy could stop it ... Herm should know that but it appears he didn't want to succeed in the playoffs ... so, JAZ just may be onto something here.

I don't have much hope that MartyHermball is going to produce a S.B. for us and may not win a playoff game. I'm resigned to wait until Kingless' 3 years are up and maybe a new G.M. can get us to the S.B.????

Reaper16
01-11-2007, 10:00 AM
every player on the offense hit the wall at the exact same time?


complete crap
2003 Raiders.

FAX
01-11-2007, 10:01 AM
This has been a crazy season, no matter how you look at it. The 14 point, 4th quarter cooter showing in Cleveland wasn't on the O. In fact, our offense looked like it was almost back to old form, there.

The offensive inconsistency in production (41 points vs niners and 7 vs the steelers) indicates bad coaching to my advisors.

FAX

OnTheWarpath58
01-11-2007, 10:08 AM
Also, you guys who keep saying the O.L. was the problem ...
1. If that was true then why was Huard able to be successful behind the same line?
2. Roaf went down for 8 or 9 games in 2005 and the offense kept clicking.


1.) Huard wasn't successful against good defenses.

Losses: Denver, Pittsburgh, Miami

Wins: San Francisco, Arizona, Seattle, Sandy Eggo (the one good D he beat) and St. Louis.

2.) IIRC, Roaf only missed 4 -5 games. And the O clicked to the tune of 3 points in Buffalo.



I think the biggest thing with the OL this year, other than the obvious loss of Roaf, is that guys kept getting moved around due to lack of execution or injuries. Any OLmen or Coach will tell you that continuity is a HUGE part of how an OL plays.

There was a revolving door at the Tackle position this year, and it effected both Shields and Waters, IMO.

FAX
01-11-2007, 10:09 AM
i just wish i knew what that meant.

:shrug:

Dam teenagers :cuss:

My apologies. He's the guy running this outrage, Mr. Laz. At least it's one of the theories.

It's all explained in Mr. Believer's mia culpa thread. But, if you like, I can explain the philosophy. I think.

FAX

Chiefnj
01-11-2007, 10:21 AM
Also, you guys who keep saying the O.L. was the problem ...
1. If that was true then why was Huard able to be successful behind the same line?
2. Roaf went down for 8 or 9 games in 2005 and the offense kept clicking.

?

1. (a) Huard had Sampson at RT for most of his games. Although apparently quite brittle, Sampson was a better RT than a post-roid Welbourn and Turley.
(b) against good defenses Huard did poorly. He threw incompletions instead of interceptions. For example, he had a 39% completion percentage against Miami.

The offense also started the Miami game with 5 straight three and outs. [Enter dramatic foreshadowing music]. Yes, THE GREAT DAMON HUARD led an offense, on the road, to 5 straight 3 and outs.

2. Roaf, I believe, missed 6 games and the team went 3-3 in those games.

Woodrow Call
01-11-2007, 10:30 AM
2003 Raiders.

My best friend is a Raiders fan and he compared the 06 Chiefs to that team a quite few times. High flying offense, most of the same players back, and in a blink of an eye everyone got old.

Mr. Kotter
01-11-2007, 10:41 AM
My best friend is a Raiders fan and he compared the 06 Chiefs to that team a quite few times. High flying offense, most of the same players back, and in a blink of an eye everyone got old.

Inconsistency is one of the hallmarks of athletes aging.

This team, if anything, was inconsistent, wasn't it? :shrug:

FringeNC
01-11-2007, 11:05 AM
Herm and Solari were handed a finely tuned sports car with some older tires on it. Herm put his stamp on the car by telling Solari - use the same car, just don't take it out of 1st gear, ever.

Herm can stand up and say - it's the same car, I didn't change anything about the car. The veteran drivers of the car know Herm is bullsh*tting and know he isn't using the car to its fullest ability - in part because Herm likes first gear and in part because the tires couldn't handle 4th gear anymore. The players are resentful because they don't want to accept that the car can't handle 4th gear and because they know that the car can do a better job if gears 2 and 3 are used which the coach stubbornly refuses to do.

Hell of an analogy. Rep.

J Diddy
01-11-2007, 11:12 AM
Inconsistency is one of the hallmarks of athletes aging.

This team, if anything, was inconsistent, wasn't it? :shrug:

sometimes

Eric
01-11-2007, 11:40 AM
Yes we got old. He can't do the same things with Bennedict Roaf.

Is anyone listening to the noon conference? Wow.

Herm got test with some guy questioning the offense.

Manila-Chief
01-11-2007, 12:33 PM
yea ... i agree that the offensive line did struggle.


but i also think that a predictable game plan makes the offensive lines' job harder.

When a defensive lineman knows what's coming the offensive blockers always seem to look a step slow ... always look sluggish.

we've seen this offense before

I fully agree. I believe our OL was built to be mobile ... pull and lead Priest around the edge. Yep, they could block for runs up the middle but it was a balanced offense which helped them do their job.

The following is neither negative nor positive ... but, seems to me that we need to rebuild our OL with big bruising guys ... with the ability to move mountains. Our center is too small and maybe the guards.

Mecca
01-11-2007, 12:36 PM
I think it's a combination of a few things.......age is one.

Then you follow that up with I think some of the offensive players aren't as good without DV around to baby them....Green, Hall and Kennison are the first that come to mind.

Then last I think the alot of players on the Chiefs on both sides of the ball think they've accomplished something and are better than they really are....some of the Chiefs players, hell in the organization in general carry themselves like they've won 4 Superbowls.

mcan
01-11-2007, 12:55 PM
The offense is too complicated because they only get an hour to practice it. So, they end up having to run plays during the game that they've never really practiced. The reason the young players seemed to be OK under Dick is because they were out on the field LEARNING the offense for 3 hours a day. The reason we were so good in the fourth quarter was because we were practicing playing the game of football for 3 hours, which (not coincidentally) is how long the actual games last! :banghead:

PastorMikH
01-11-2007, 01:01 PM
Seems like Herm might have planned all along to 1/2-heartedly implement the our offense of the last 5 years in order to be able to kill it off after the season.

His comments about it being too complex for young players to master/succeed, combined with his long history of wanting to play younger players... makes me thing that, for better or worse, Herm fully intended to abandon the offense after 1 year by slowly choking it during this year.



I would prefer him come in last spring, tell people that the O is too complicated and he want's to find a way to simplify it without neutering it.

KCJohnny
01-11-2007, 03:27 PM
1.) Huard wasn't successful against good defenses.

Losses: Denver, Pittsburgh, Miami

Wins: San Francisco, Arizona, Seattle, Sandy Eggo (the one good D he beat) and St. Louis.

2.) IIRC, Roaf only missed 4 -5 games. And the O clicked to the tune of 3 points in Buffalo.



I think the biggest thing with the OL this year, other than the obvious loss of Roaf, is that guys kept getting moved around due to lack of execution or injuries. Any OLmen or Coach will tell you that continuity is a HUGE part of how an OL plays.

There was a revolving door at the Tackle position this year, and it effected both Shields and Waters, IMO.

The 2005 Chiefs were a legitimate threat to pass effectively on every down. SolHermi's offense posed no threat to pass on 1st and 2nd down most series. LJ ran wild out of the 2005 offense because teams had to respect the pass, yes, even on 1st down. This year they lined up and played to stop LJ. LJ got the same amount of yards but it took 4,000,000 carries and he had FAR fewer runs of 20+ yards this year.

Calcountry
01-11-2007, 06:31 PM
This has been a crazy season, no matter how you look at it. The 14 point, 4th quarter cooter showing in Cleveland wasn't on the O. In fact, our offense looked like it was almost back to old form, there.

The offensive inconsistency in production (41 points vs niners and 7 vs the steelers) indicates bad coaching to my advisors.

FAXYou see, it was the O's fault in Herm's world. They didn't protect the D and keep them off the field, so the pussies wore down and couldn't even stop a back up QB from lighting them up better than Manning at home.

Huh, that was on the O dude.

htismaqe
01-11-2007, 08:23 PM
The 2005 Chiefs were a legitimate threat to pass effectively on every down. SolHermi's offense posed no threat to pass on 1st and 2nd down most series. LJ ran wild out of the 2005 offense because teams had to respect the pass, yes, even on 1st down. This year they lined up and played to stop LJ. LJ got the same amount of yards but it took 4,000,000 carries and he had FAR fewer runs of 20+ yards this year.

My how things change.

The last time Johnny was here he was telling us all about how foul Vermeil was for Ramzifying the Chiefs. Now, Vermeil can do no wrong.