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Cave Johnson
01-18-2007, 11:39 AM
I'm working on a research project on exposing predatory lenders. Payday loans and "buy-here/pay-here" used car dealers specifically. A bill has been introduced in the MO House which, I'm inferring, reduces the current <b><u>1,950% cap</b></u> on interest rates.

If anyone knows the big, non-corporate chain players in Springfield, I'd appreciate it. Charging $1,800 in interest on a $450 loan, which is just one example, is just unspeakably wrong.

Cochise
01-18-2007, 11:43 AM
If someone voluntarily signs their name to a contract, how can that be considered predatory?

If you can only get credit at 2000% interest you probably shouldn't be borrowing money at all.

Cave Johnson
01-18-2007, 11:47 AM
If someone voluntarily signs their name to a contract, how can that be considered predatory?

I'm not intending to start a debate on the issue's ethics. If you feel that poor 12 year-olds should be able to contract themselves into lifetime involentary servitude, or insert any other less extreme free market example, good for you.

Take that discussion over to D.C. Or, if it'll keep this on the front page, fire away.

Cochise
01-18-2007, 11:52 AM
I'm not intending to start a debate on the issue's ethics. If you feel that poor 12 year-olds should be able to contract themselves into lifetime involentary servitude, or insert any other less extreme free market example, good for you.

Take that discussion over to D.C. Or, if it'll keep this on the front page, fire away.

12 year olds can't enter into an enforcible contract.

luv
01-18-2007, 11:58 AM
There are payday loan and buy here pay here places on nearly every other corner. I've never used any of them. Sorry I can't help ya out.

Cave Johnson
01-18-2007, 12:01 PM
12 year olds can't enter into an enforcible contract.

No s**t, sherlock. I was being absurd.

htismaqe
01-18-2007, 12:02 PM
No s**t, sherlock. I was being absurd.

Is this really necessary?

Donger
01-18-2007, 12:03 PM
I'm a "if you choose to f*ck yourself, you shouldn't complain about it" kind of chap.

rageeumr
01-18-2007, 12:03 PM
How about those dudes that pimp their re-fi's on the radio, but don't mention to anybody that the loans are negatively amortizing. Gotta love that.

Oh ya, don't live in Springfield, so I can't help you out with your question.

ferrarispider95
01-18-2007, 12:03 PM
They are popping up everywhere. I do remember reading a story with US Govt stepped against some that were setting up around military bases to target soliders.

Redrum_69
01-18-2007, 12:04 PM
"Predatory lenders in Springfield"


Holy shit...finanacial talk on the front forums????


This damn Global warming shit has got to freakin stop!!!!!!!!

chagrin
01-18-2007, 12:05 PM
14 states have already shut down several of these places and Attorney General's all across America are becoming more aware of them.

I bet most of you don't know that many of them, actually almost all of them operate illegally (at least the internet ones) and therefore are predatory, regardless of the brain capacity of the signee.

ferrarispider95
01-18-2007, 12:06 PM
I don't agree with them, but considering the people that probably use them there is probably quite a bit of risk involved for the lender. I am not sure what they secure for the loan.

oldandslow
01-18-2007, 12:06 PM
The mob goes to jail for loan sharking...

what's the difference.

I am surprised Cochise came out on the side he did considering all that the Old Testament has to say about usury.

rageeumr
01-18-2007, 12:10 PM
I don't think the overall business model of a payday loan place is illegal or unethical, just the exorbitant interest rates they charge. Is it really that different than H&R block offering a "money now" loan (which lawmakers haven't ignored, either)

Cochise
01-18-2007, 12:10 PM
The mob goes to jail for loan sharking...

what's the difference.

I am surprised Cochise came out on the side he did considering all that the Old Testament has to say about usury.

Your incorrect impression of the matter aside, That makes sense if you think I am a theocrat. :spock:

Skip Towne
01-18-2007, 12:10 PM
If HE didn't want 'em sheared, HE wouldn't have made 'em sheep.

Cave Johnson
01-18-2007, 12:11 PM
Is this really necessary?

Is he going to tell me next that slavery is illegal?

trndobrd
01-18-2007, 12:12 PM
Much better that someone should walk than pay too much for a car loan.

Cave Johnson
01-18-2007, 12:16 PM
I don't agree with them, but considering the people that probably use them there is probably quite a bit of risk involved for the lender. I am not sure what they secure for the loan.

I thought the same thing, but apparently not.

Per Howard Karger, professor of social policy at the University of Houston, payday loan losses are about 6% or less. One of the leading check cashers, ACE, reports losses of less than 1%

chagrin
01-18-2007, 12:16 PM
I don't think the overall business model of a payday loan place is illegal or unethical, just the exorbitant interest rates they charge. Is it really that different than H&R block offering a "money now" loan (which lawmakers haven't ignored, either)


maybe the business model isn't, but the internets are. Their contracts will state as plain as day an APR of up to 1000% when the state law in each state (the signee and the lender, assuming the lender is a USA company, alot of them are overseas and away from our reach of law) is most of the time up to 390% or in some cases 795% APR. So, even on the contracts, they state their illegal practice, again, regardless of the brain capacity of the signee.

had to edit that I meant 1000 not 100

htismaqe
01-18-2007, 12:17 PM
Is he going to tell me next that slavery is illegal?

He's not the one that took the thread from "I'm looking for info" to "Look dipshit" in less than two posts...

chagrin
01-18-2007, 12:20 PM
He's not the one that took the thread from "I'm looking for info" to "Look dipshit" in less than two posts...


LMAO

zing!

Cave Johnson
01-18-2007, 12:23 PM
He's not the one that took the thread from "I'm looking for info" to "Look dipshit" in less than two posts...

Can't really argue that one.

luv
01-18-2007, 12:24 PM
I don't think the overall business model of a payday loan place is illegal or unethical, just the exorbitant interest rates they charge. Is it really that different than H&R block offering a "money now" loan (which lawmakers haven't ignored, either)
What gets me are the car dealerships saying to bring in your W2, driver's license and social security card. Get your taxes done there, and then you can apply part or all of your refund towards the down payment on a car. Who in their right minds would have their taxes done at a car dealership???

Redrum_69
01-18-2007, 12:25 PM
He's not the one that took the thread from "I'm looking for info" to "Look dipshit" in less than two posts...



total unadulterated ownage

Cochise
01-18-2007, 12:31 PM
I took issue with the description of the practice of payday loans as "predatory". If they are deceiving the customer then ok. Prosecute the individuals involved. If people enter a legally binding contract of their own accord and the terms are accurately spelled out for them, why does this need to be regulated?

If social engineering is the objective, you should like the higher interest rates, because they should scare anyone with any sense away from borrowing when they shouldn't be.

Should we have the state legislature put a cap on exorbitant Chiefs season ticket prices? Should the state take action against the vending machine company here for hiking the price of a Coke to $1.25?

rageeumr
01-18-2007, 12:38 PM
I took issue with the description of the practice of payday loans as "predatory". If they are deceiving the customer then ok. Prosecute the individuals involved. If people enter a legally binding contract of their own accord and the terms are accurately spelled out for them, why does this need to be regulated?

If social engineering is the objective, you should like the higher interest rates, because they should scare anyone with any sense away from borrowing when they shouldn't be.

Should we have the state legislature put a cap on exorbitant Chiefs season ticket prices? Should the state take action against the vending machine company here for hiking the price of a Coke to $1.25?

I tend to agree with this statement. Chagrin's points are obviously valid if the company is charging a higher APR than allowed by law. I think the variable here is the presentation that is made to the borrower at the time of signing. When it comes to loans, I'm usually pretty insistant upon reading (and being sure that I understand) an entire document before I sign it, but there are plenty of times that I have signed an agreement without reading it. (Did you really read the entire Blockbuster membership agreement before you got your card?) I could see how people could be easily misled, especially (without making too many generalizations) the type of people who would need to use such a service.

chagrin
01-18-2007, 12:42 PM
Well of course, people do need to read their disclosures, they can't run from their responsibility. I just think these places should be shut down, that's all.

wilas101
01-18-2007, 01:55 PM
Should the state take action against the vending machine company here for hiking the price of a Coke to $1.25?



yes because those bastards are forcing me to carry change instead of bills.

Pitt Gorilla
01-18-2007, 02:00 PM
I took issue with the description of the practice of payday loans as "predatory". If they are deceiving the customer then ok. Prosecute the individuals involved. If people enter a legally binding contract of their own accord and the terms are accurately spelled out for them, why does this need to be regulated?

If social engineering is the objective, you should like the higher interest rates, because they should scare anyone with any sense away from borrowing when they shouldn't be.

Should we have the state legislature put a cap on exorbitant Chiefs season ticket prices? Should the state take action against the vending machine company here for hiking the price of a Coke to $1.25?I agree, but it seems that one should define "deceiving." If something is spelled out in fine print, is it deceiving? If the contract has 23000 pages and the customer decides not to read each one, is that "deceiving?"

Frazod
01-18-2007, 02:20 PM
When I reestablished my credit after bankruptcy, I had to deal with a weasel company to get a car loan. The interest rate was a brutal 33%, but hey, I was the idiot who went bankrupt, so I had no one else to blame. After keeping my nose clean for a year, I was able to get better rates, and within five years my credit rating was fully repaired. And after all the shit I went through, I make goddamn sure it stays that way, too.

Sometimes places like this serve a purpose. Of course, they also prey on morons, but so do lots of other businesses. Predatory, to me, implies dishonest or false representations. The company I dealt with didn't hide the fact that they were going to stick it to me.

Cochise
01-18-2007, 02:24 PM
When I reestablished my credit after bankruptcy, I had to deal with a weasel company to get a car loan. The interest rate was a brutal 33%, but hey, I was the idiot who went bankrupt, so I had no one else to blame. After keeping my nose clean for a year, I was able to get better rates, and within five years my credit rating was fully repaired. And after all the shit I went through, I make goddamn sure it stays that way, too.

Sometimes places like this serve a purpose. Of course, they also prey on morons, but so do lots of other businesses. Predatory, to me, implies dishonest or false representations. The company I dealt with didn't hide the fact that they were going to stick it to me.

There you go. As long as you are upfront with people, I don't see the problem if you aren't being dishonest.

If we are going to outlaw companies that prey on morons with more money than sense why not get rid of casinos too? Or fast food? The Chiefs?

Kerberos
01-19-2007, 04:34 AM
I'm working on a research project on exposing predatory lenders. Payday loans and "buy-here/pay-here" used car dealers specifically. A bill has been introduced in the MO House which, I'm inferring, reduces the current <b><u>1,950% cap</b></u> on interest rates.

If anyone knows the big, non-corporate chain players in Springfield, I'd appreciate it. Charging $1,800 in interest on a $450 loan, which is just one example, is just unspeakably wrong.

I was always under the impression that "legally" you could ONLY charge up to a certain amount of interest under "Federal Law" and then one day my sister calls me and begs me for $2000.00 to pay off a loan she took out on her vehicle in Missouri where she borrowed like $650 and of course she didn't make payments on time and stop paying for god knows how long and they were coming to repo her car.

I of course had to bail her out and pretty much gave her the riot act on looking at small print when she signs a contract.

For the life of me I thought there was a CAP on how much interest could be charged. These sleaze ball loan places have found a loophole in the law somewhere and are exploiting it and ****ing the blue collar worker that can't defend themselves or don't have the brain power to do so.

As I hate to lump my sister into that catagory there are a LOT of people out there that are too trusting our government to keep things like this from happening.

I hope you nail some of these predatory bastards that feed on the weak and poor.

I may be in the minority here but I really think for things like this our government NEEDS to step in and put a stop to fraud.

IMO

.

Kerberos
01-19-2007, 04:39 AM
When I reestablished my credit after bankruptcy, I had to deal with a weasel company to get a car loan. The interest rate was a brutal 33%, but hey, I was the idiot who went bankrupt, so I had no one else to blame. After keeping my nose clean for a year, I was able to get better rates, and within five years my credit rating was fully repaired. And after all the shit I went through, I make goddamn sure it stays that way, too.

Sometimes places like this serve a purpose. Of course, they also prey on morons, but so do lots of other businesses. Predatory, to me, implies dishonest or false representations. The company I dealt with didn't hide the fact that they were going to stick it to me.

Jeezuus H Christ on a popsicle stick. 33%

How long after your Bankruptsy did you try to get a loan?

I waited about a year after my bankruptcy and got an interest rate of just over 7% on my new vehicle.

I am getting ready to refinance my home and the leading % rate right now is looking to be just a little OVER 6% and I am just barely over the 2 year mark after the bankruptcy being final.

Your credit must have been pretty F***ed up to get that kind of interest rate?


.

Smed1065
01-19-2007, 05:12 AM
I was always under the impression that "legally" you could ONLY charge up to a certain amount of interest under "Federal Law" and then one day my sister calls me and begs me for $2000.00 to pay off a loan she took out on her vehicle in Missouri where she borrowed like $650 and of course she didn't make payments on time and stop paying for god knows how long and they were coming to repo her car.

I of course had to bail her out and pretty much gave her the riot act on looking at small print when she signs a contract.

For the life of me I thought there was a CAP on how much interest could be charged. These sleaze ball loan places have found a loophole in the law somewhere and are exploiting it and ****ing the blue collar worker that can't defend themselves or don't have the brain power to do so.

As I hate to lump my sister into that catagory there are a LOT of people out there that are too trusting our government to keep things like this from happening.

I hope you nail some of these predatory bastards that feed on the weak and poor.

I may be in the minority here but I really think for things like this our government NEEDS to step in and put a stop to fraud.

IMO

.

That is why they have changed the interest rate to fees and maintenance cost instead.

I have good credit but have also signed 23 paged documents, even after reading because I could not decode "the terms" on their description of the English language.

I am no lawyer and the "terms' was written in their language, not English. Maybe it was Spanglish because it was half and half.

I have been lucky so far!

I also deal with reputable companies because of the jargon in contracts.

Kerberos
01-19-2007, 05:20 AM
That is why they have changed the interest rate to fees and maintenance cost instead.

I have good credit but have also signed 23 paged documents, even after reading because I could not decode "the terms" on their description of the English language.

I am no lawyer and the "terms' was written in their language, not English. Maybe it was Spanglish because it was half and half.

I have been lucky so far!

I also deal with reputable companies because of the jargon in contracts.


A really good friend bought some funiture from a good store in Manhattan KS a few years back and her contract was pretty specific when I read it that she paid absolutely NO interest charges for the full term of her installments UNLESS (and this is where reading your contract is a MUST) she was late on just 1 flipping payment and then interest started ... not from THAT point on... But back to the first day of her signing said contract. And if I remember correctly it was upwards of 20% or better.

She has impecible credit and paid 3 months in advance so she will never have to worry about it ... but "ME" working in a funiture/appliance/electronics/computer retail sales and rental store 2/3 of the clients were late on payments so I know where that particular store my friend bought from was making thier money.

Most retail stores that have in store credit have a loophole to screw you if you are late on payments or can't get a conventional loan because of bad credit.

I wrote many a Rent-to-own contract ... they are pretty F*** the consumer in most but NOT ALL cases.

.

Fairplay
01-19-2007, 05:26 AM
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jjjayb
01-19-2007, 06:36 AM
I was always under the impression that "legally" you could ONLY charge up to a certain amount of interest under "Federal Law" and then one day my sister calls me and begs me for $2000.00 to pay off a loan she took out on her vehicle in Missouri where she borrowed like $650 and of course she didn't make payments on time and stop paying for god knows how long and they were coming to repo her car.

I of course had to bail her out and pretty much gave her the riot act on looking at small print when she signs a contract.

For the life of me I thought there was a CAP on how much interest could be charged. These sleaze ball loan places have found a loophole in the law somewhere and are exploiting it and ****ing the blue collar worker that can't defend themselves or don't have the brain power to do so.

As I hate to lump my sister into that catagory there are a LOT of people out there that are too trusting our government to keep things like this from happening.

I hope you nail some of these predatory bastards that feed on the weak and poor.

I may be in the minority here but I really think for things like this our government NEEDS to step in and put a stop to fraud.

IMO

.

If your sister made her car payments it wouldn't have been a problem. Maybe you should place the blame where it belongs.

chagrin
01-19-2007, 06:53 AM
I was always under the impression that "legally" you could ONLY charge up to a certain amount of interest under "Federal Law"


Go back to my posts on page 1 of this thread, each state has their oewn laws regarding APR percentage on loans, and yes several states (14) have already begun legislation to shut these places down.

Simplex3
01-19-2007, 07:25 AM
I took issue with the description of the practice of payday loans as "predatory". If they are deceiving the customer then ok. Prosecute the individuals involved. If people enter a legally binding contract of their own accord and the terms are accurately spelled out for them, why does this need to be regulated?

If social engineering is the objective, you should like the higher interest rates, because they should scare anyone with any sense away from borrowing when they shouldn't be.

Should we have the state legislature put a cap on exorbitant Chiefs season ticket prices? Should the state take action against the vending machine company here for hiking the price of a Coke to $1.25?
:clap:

However, you've just wasted your keystrokes. Those who choose not to see this won't be swayed.

Simplex3
01-19-2007, 07:27 AM
I tend to agree with this statement. Chagrin's points are obviously valid if the company is charging a higher APR than allowed by law. I think the variable here is the presentation that is made to the borrower at the time of signing. When it comes to loans, I'm usually pretty insistant upon reading (and being sure that I understand) an entire document before I sign it, but there are plenty of times that I have signed an agreement without reading it. (Did you really read the entire Blockbuster membership agreement before you got your card?) I could see how people could be easily misled, especially (without making too many generalizations) the type of people who would need to use such a service.
If they saw fit to spend the time writing the agreement, I see a reason to read it before signing, clicking, or otherwise accepting it.

The disservice isn't the laws or lack thereof, the disservice is that they got out of their parent's house and school without any idea how to manage their daily lives.

Simplex3
01-19-2007, 07:29 AM
Well of course, people do need to read their disclosures, they can't run from their responsibility. I just think these places should be shut down, that's all.
It's easy to shut these places down. Just teach people how to save money. They'll close on their own because people won't feel the need to use them.

Simplex3
01-19-2007, 07:32 AM
There you go. As long as you are upfront with people, I don't see the problem if you aren't being dishonest.

If we are going to outlaw companies that prey on morons with more money than sense why not get rid of casinos too? Or fast food? The Chiefs?
...because those aren't the companies that *HE'S* pissed off about. Much like the poor, poor, pitiful poor people he's so worried about, he isn't factoring in the fact that if he gets what he wants he's opening a flood gate for a bunch of s**t he won't want.

Typical modern response to a perceived injustice.

Kerberos
01-19-2007, 07:34 AM
If your sister made her car payments it wouldn't have been a problem. Maybe you should place the blame where it belongs.

As I agree that interest rates going sky high and causing this F***up where definately "HER FAULT"

But that shouldn't give ANYONE or ANYPLACE that loans the right to F***ing gouge you.

IIRC isn't there some government contractors that are getting investigated for gouging the american public on thier services over in Iraq?

What makes them any different than JOE BLOW I'm gonna F*** you because I CAN at my place of buisness car sales or retail outlet?

Gouging is gouging I don't care who is doing it.

BTW this is just IMO.

.

Simplex3
01-19-2007, 07:34 AM
I waited about a year after my bankruptcy...
Which type of bankruptcy, the one where you are forgiven your debt or the one where you pay them back more slowly?

Simplex3
01-19-2007, 07:37 AM
Most retail stores that have in store credit have a loophole to screw you if you are late on payments...
Note to self: A contract, signed by an adult, when carried out per the letter of the contract, is SCREWING PEOPLE.

And here I always thought that was call fulfilling their obligations. :shrug:

Simplex3
01-19-2007, 07:38 AM
If your sister made her car payments it wouldn't have been a problem. Maybe you should place the blame where it belongs.
I'd also like to know just what it was that his sister needed $650 for. Most people I've known that did some dumb s**t like this went and spent the money on clothes, jewelry, a cruise, or something equally as f**king stupid.

Kerberos
01-19-2007, 07:44 AM
It's easy to shut these places down. Just teach people how to save money. They'll close on their own because people won't feel the need to use them.

Like that is going to happen in your or my lifetime.

As long as there are more WANTS than NEEDS in our society you will NEVER get people to live within thier means.

Not that it isn't a good concept its just not logical to think it can be done.

It's almost like telling a teenager that abstenance is the best form of birth control. Though it maybe TRUE it won't hold any water. No Pun intended.

I'd also like to know just what it was that his sister needed $650 for. Most people I've known that did some dumb s**t like this went and spent the money on clothes, jewelry, a cruise, or something equally as f**king stupid.


As I think it had something to do with some payment back to the State of Missouri I know it wasn't for something completely STUPID as you put it.

But what KILLS me is that if she would have asked me for the $650 I would have given it to her. That would have cost me $1350 less than what it did.:banghead:

As I won't get into the dysfunctional portion of my family I think most people have a rogue relative somewhere that causes greif for the rest of thier family. Mine just happens to be my sister.


.

Simplex3
01-19-2007, 07:48 AM
Like that is going to happen in your or my lifetime.

As long as there are more WANTS than NEEDS in our society you will NEVER get people to live within thier means.

Not that it isn't a good concept its just not logical to think it can be done.

It's almost like telling a teenager that abstenance is the best form of birth control. Though it maybe TRUE it won't hold any water. No Pun intended.

.
So what you're saying is that there is a realistic and viable option that these people are choosing to ignore? If that's the case, why are we spending time feeling sorry for them?

Stupid people do stupid s**t all day, every day. You can't pass enough laws to keep them safe because...

wait for it.....


they're stupid.

Kerberos
01-19-2007, 07:54 AM
So what you're saying is that there is a realistic and viable option that these people are choosing to ignore? If that's the case, why are we spending time feeling sorry for them?

Stupid people do stupid s**t all day, every day. You can't pass enough laws to keep them safe because...

wait for it.....


they're stupid.


Stupid is a pretty good word. Yes feeling sorry for them makes not a lot of sense but then again it is HUMAN to feel sorry and to forgive. Not saying every person on the planet (no pun intended) is human in that respect but most people have some sort of compassion for those that are less fortunate.

You are right we will never be able to stop ALL people and places for F***ing the weak and poor but I would like to think we will always try to stop them one at a time.

I know my sister means well but she is in that catagory of people that will probably never learn. I have cut her off some time ago after paying to keep her car from being repo'd and she has become somewhat self sufficient but deep down I know she will never learn and for me to think so would be STUPID of me.

.

Simplex3
01-19-2007, 07:54 AM
As I agree that interest rates going sky high and causing this F***up where definately "HER FAULT"

But that shouldn't give ANYONE or ANYPLACE that loans the right to F***ing gouge you.

IIRC isn't there some government contractors that are getting investigated for gouging the american public on thier services over in Iraq?

What makes them any different than JOE BLOW I'm gonna F*** you because I CAN at my place of buisness car sales or retail outlet?

Gouging is gouging I don't care who is doing it.

BTW this is just IMO.

.
You can always walk away from the predator and not be gouged. I've lived in plenty of cities with payday loan, car loan, and pawn shops, and I've been poor while I lived there. However, they've never taken advantage of ME. Hell, I've never even been contacted by one. It seems to me they just sit there, waiting for a dumbass to walk in.

Simplex3
01-19-2007, 07:59 AM
Stupid is a pretty good word. Yes feeling sorry for them makes not a lot of sense but then again it is HUMAN to feel sorry and to forgive. Not saying every person on the planet (no pun intended) is human in that respect but most people have some sort of compassion for those that are less fortunate.
Here's where I think our difference lies. I don't consider it a matter of fortune.
You are right we will never be able to stop ALL people and places for F***ing the weak and poor but I would like to think we will always try to stop them one at a time.
The issue is, are you asking these people if they WANT help? If they were unhappy with their situation don't you think they'd change it? "Helping" people live the life YOU want to live isn't really helping anyone but you.
I know my sister means well but she is in that catagory of people that will probably never learn. I have cut her off some time ago after paying to keep her car from being repo'd and she has become somewhat self sufficient but deep down I know she will never learn and for me to think so would be STUPID of me.
I have more than one relative (mostly two uncles and one aunt) who are this type. They've each approached me one time, and I told them in no uncertain terms that they were on their own. One of them has made it for years and still doesn't have a warrant out for his arrest.

Kerberos
01-19-2007, 08:00 AM
You can always walk away from the predator and not be gouged. I've lived in plenty of cities with payday loan, car loan, and pawn shops, and I've been poor while I lived there. However, they've never taken advantage of ME. Hell, I've never even been contacted by one. It seems to me they just sit there, waiting for a dumbass to walk in.

Yup

And they will stay in buisness doing JUST that if we as a society let them.

.....And as long as we have a plethora of DUMBASS running around.

;)

.

Simplex3
01-19-2007, 08:01 AM
As I think it had something to do with some payment back to the State of Missouri I know it wasn't for something completely STUPID as you put it.
So your solution to a govt. so overbearing that your sister decided to be preyed upon to pay that govt. some debt is more govt.?

Ok. :spock:

chagrin
01-19-2007, 08:02 AM
...because those aren't the companies that *HE'S* pissed off about. Much like the poor, poor, pitiful poor people he's so worried about, he isn't factoring in the fact that if he gets what he wants he's opening a flood gate for a bunch of s**t he won't want.

Typical modern response to a perceived injustice.


I'm not pissed at the places, are you referring to me or rxrider?

I don't really care about people who borrow money with no intention to pya it back, which is the majority of "victims" who borrow from these places.

Simplex3
01-19-2007, 08:03 AM
I'm not pissed at the places, are you referring to me or rxrider?

I don't really care about people who borrow money with no intention to pya it back, which is the majority of "victims" who borrow from these places.
rxrider. I was adding to your comment, not disputing it.

Kerberos
01-19-2007, 08:04 AM
The issue is, are you asking these people if they WANT help? If they were unhappy with their situation don't you think they'd change it? "Helping" people live the life YOU want to live isn't really helping anyone but you.

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I don't think anyone that gets his home or car repo'd or has people knocking on thier door wants that to happen.

I am not trying help them live the life I HAVE ... I just think we should help stop the people that are F***ing them from making mint of cash to live the lives that they are by F***ing other people.

BTW ... Still IMO.


So your solution to a govt. so overbearing that your sister decided to be preyed upon to pay that govt. some debt is more govt.?

Ok. :spock:

I don't think we are on the same page here. She owed some back taxes and went and got a loan from unscroupulous (sp?) people and got f**ed.

I really don't think it is completely they way your are catagorizing it..
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Redrum_69
01-19-2007, 08:06 AM
Are there any strip joints...fully nude..around Springfield?

Simplex3
01-19-2007, 08:09 AM
I don't think anyone that gets his home or car repo'd or has people knocking on thier door wants that to happen.

I am not trying help them live the life I HAVE ... I just think we should help stop the people that are F***ing them from making mint of cash to live the lives that they are by F***ing other people.

BTW ... Still IMO.

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I did some dumb s**t as a young man. I spent a lot of time worrying about what other people were doing to help me and my situation. It wasn't until I took control and decided to not wait for someone else to help me that I moved forward.

Did I *want* to be living in half of a f**ked up trailer in Manhattan KS, driving a beater and wondering where my next meal was going to come from? In hindsight, yes. Basically I didn't want to do the things it was going to take to get out of that cycle. Given an option where zero effort would have removed me from that situation, sure I would have taken it. However, I was Ok with that situation more than I was wanting to do the work necessary to get out of it.

Skip Towne
01-19-2007, 08:10 AM
It seems to me they just sit there, waiting for a dumbass to walk in. Kinda like we do here on the Planet

Simplex3
01-19-2007, 08:11 AM
I don't think we are on the same page here. She owed some back taxes and went and got a loan from unscroupulous (sp?) people and got f**ed.

I really don't think it is completely they way your are catagorizing it..
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What I'm saying is the fact that your sister owed back taxes is suggestive that we already have too much govt. More laws to control more "predatory practices" will only result in more govt. that is going to require more money.

Kerberos
01-19-2007, 08:14 AM
I did some dumb s**t as a young man. I spent a lot of time worrying about what other people were doing to help me and my situation. It wasn't until I took control and decided to not wait for someone else to help me that I moved forward.

Did I *want* to be living in half of a f**ked up trailer in Manhattan KS, driving a beater and wondering where my next meal was going to come from? In hindsight, yes. Basically I didn't want to do the things it was going to take to get out of that cycle. Given an option where zero effort would have removed me from that situation, sure I would have taken it. However, I was Ok with that situation more than I was wanting to do the work necessary to get out of it.




What I'm saying is the fact that your sister owed back taxes is suggestive that we already have too much govt. More laws to control more "predatory practices" will only result in more govt. that is going to require more money.



I see your point on both accounts.

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Frazod
01-19-2007, 08:15 AM
Jeezuus H Christ on a popsicle stick. 33%

How long after your Bankruptsy did you try to get a loan?

I waited about a year after my bankruptcy and got an interest rate of just over 7% on my new vehicle.

I am getting ready to refinance my home and the leading % rate right now is looking to be just a little OVER 6% and I am just barely over the 2 year mark after the bankruptcy being final.

Your credit must have been pretty F***ed up to get that kind of interest rate?.
Shit, my credit was so bad people wouldn't take my cash. After the bankruptcy I did nothing to reestablish my credit, and in fact screwed it up even more. Big bad stupid period of my life. I applied for that loan five years later. Took a lot of time and effort to recover when I finally pulled my head out of my ass.

Cave Johnson
01-19-2007, 09:00 AM
What I'm saying is the fact that your sister owed back taxes is suggestive that we already have too much govt. More laws to control more "predatory practices" will only result in more govt. that is going to require more money.

I'm not sure that government intervention in this area will lead to more expenditures/bigger government.

The idea I've seen and like is to develop community-based lending institutions or local cooperatives. Although these organizations will undoubtably charge higher interest rates and fees than commercial banks charge prime rate customers, the rates would still be significantly lower than in the existing fringe sector. For example, they might charge higher monthly banking fees but lower (e.g. not $30) NSF charges.

The Nobel peace prize this year went to the father of microlending. The ubiquitousness of payday loan places seems to suggest that there's the same sort of need for lending to the poor in this country.

Simplex3
01-19-2007, 09:39 AM
I'm not sure that government intervention in this area will lead to more expenditures/bigger government.

The idea I've seen and like is to develop community-based lending institutions or local cooperatives. Although these organizations will undoubtably charge higher interest rates and fees than commercial banks charge prime rate customers, the rates would still be significantly lower than in the existing fringe sector. For example, they might charge higher monthly banking fees but lower (e.g. not $30) NSF charges.

The Nobel peace prize this year went to the father of microlending. The ubiquitousness of payday loan places seems to suggest that there's the same sort of need for lending to the poor in this country.
If you make the interest rate lower, you're going to see more and more people rely on it. That's going to mean that the problem won't get better, it will just be wider instead of deeper.

The problem isn't the guy loaning the money, the problem is the people who are so dumb they'll take the money under those conditions.

As for new laws not creating more govt, show me one time that's ever happened. You'll have to have an enforcement group, you'll have to prosecute those who break the new laws, you'll need a judge to hear that case, you'll need to incarcerate those who are convicted...

Don't kid yourself. Govt only brings one thing: More govt.

Cave Johnson
01-19-2007, 09:44 AM
Try here. North Carolina's AG forced the "high interest rate" lenders to sign consent agreements and close up shop. If they're closed, how does this cost $$ to enforce?

http://www.consumeraffairs.com/news04/2006/03/nc_payday.html

Simplex3
01-19-2007, 09:53 AM
Try here. North Carolina's AG forced the "high interest rate" lenders to sign consent agreements and close up shop. If they're closed, how does this cost $$ to enforce?

http://www.consumeraffairs.com/news04/2006/03/nc_payday.html
This will work just like prohibition and drug enforcement worked flawlessly.

Until you remove the desire for the product the product will exist. Period.

chagrin
01-19-2007, 09:58 AM
If you make the interest rate lower, you're going to see more and more people rely on it. That's going to mean that the problem won't get better, it will just be wider instead of deeper.




Regardless of where we stand on the payday loan issue, I agree with this.

We saw what happened to Fannie Mae when they decided to lend money to anyone who wanted a mortgage, the largest number of loans in default in history - massive firings and layoffs, it was aweful. Bankruptcy filings went through the roof, forcing the president to amned the BK laws, we all know the story.

This to me though, it's like prostitution, drug dealing and every other shady "sale" based industry (yes yes, I realize they are illegal but the spirit is the same) who's woprse, the seller or the buyer, my own opeinion is that they are equally responsible for the problems it's created.

Iowanian
01-19-2007, 09:59 AM
If people would just be finanically responsible, these places wouldn't have a purpose to serve.

I'm sure they're working with alot of the same people who have their rent paid by tax payers, but have high speed internet, satelite with all the trimmings and a newer car than most of you.

There is a sure fire way not to have to pay penalties and extra interest on a loan....Pay your effing debt on time.

I have very little sympathy for people who live beyond their means and don't pay the important bills first.

Cave Johnson
01-19-2007, 10:02 AM
This will work just like prohibition and drug enforcement worked flawlessly.

Until you remove the desire for the product the product will exist. Period.

Or they'll turn to loan sharks, which apparently charge lower interest rates.

Somehow I don't think the need for high interest loans is quite as ingrained as the desire for booze.

Simplex3
01-19-2007, 10:05 AM
Or they'll turn to loan sharks, which apparently charge lower interest rates.

Somehow I don't think the need for high interest loans is quite as ingrained as the desire for booze.
You're going to turn them from a guy who will repossess their car to a guy that is going to break their legs. I'm sure they'll thank you for it, though.

...and if you think people want money less than they want booze you're wrong.

Simplex3
01-19-2007, 10:06 AM
I'm just guessing here Pittsie, but you're 22 or younger, aren't you?

Chazno
01-19-2007, 10:17 AM
You're going to turn them from a guy who will repossess their car to a guy that is going to break their legs. I'm sure they'll thank you for it, though.

...and if you think people want money less than they want booze you're wrong.

Thats if they BORROW what they need. I wonder how many more old lady's are getting mugged for their social security checks since that law went in.

These people need money and no bank will give them a $500 UNSECURED loan (as most payday loans are).

Cave Johnson
01-19-2007, 10:18 AM
I have zero personal knowledge on the subject, but apparently loan sharks don't usually break legs. It attracts too much attention from the 50. They usually take, probably forcibly, property from the borrower to repay the loan.

Closer to 30 than 20, actually.

RJ
01-19-2007, 02:26 PM
I wonder how many times the word "stupid" was used in this thread to describe these borrowers? If I wasn't so lazy I'd go back and count.

Anyway, I don't think the problem is stupidity. The problem is that it's really expensive to be broke or poor or to have bad credit or no credit. Once a person gets behind it's hard as hell to catch up. Higher interest rates, security deposits, late fees, reposessed cars, evictions, bounced check fees, etc, etc.

I don't mean to excuse anyone from responsibility but at the same time it's easy to see how a person can get into a situation where they let themselves get f***ed by these places. It might be the difference between losing your car or your apartment or even feeding your kids.

And then of course there are the people who take out a loan at 33% just so they can take a vacation or buy a new TV. Screw them, they're just STUPID and deserve what they get. :)

Kerberos
01-20-2007, 06:08 AM
Which type of bankruptcy, the one where you are forgiven your debt or the one where you pay them back more slowly?


BTW I missed this one.

I can honestly tell you that my attorney looked at our finances AT THE TIME of the bankruptcy. What we owed and what we could afford to pay.

I was still serving as an endentured (SP?) servant to the employer that sent me to school to learn what I do NOW for a living and was barely making ends meet as my wife was pregnant and had made the decision to quit her job to stay home with the baby when he was born right before the bankruptcy hearing.

We had TWO mortgage payments as she owned a house in Manhattan KS when we met. My cash to debt ratio was so lobsided that the attorney advised my wife and I to file Chapter 7 and discharge the debt as we would not be able to make the payments. We had NO Credit Card debt just two mortgage payments that was costing us upwards of $2K a month. I didn't even have a Fugging vehicle that is how broke I was.

I know how you felt in your thread where you were driving a beater wondering if things were ever going to change. LIFE SUCKED at that time of my life. I was driving a borrowed 69 Ford Pickup that was held together by bailing wire and rust.

Funny that in two years time I have come full circle and did a complete 180 that would NOT have been possible if not for my Attorney giving me the advice that he did.

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Simplex3
01-20-2007, 09:42 AM
I was still serving as an endentured (SP?) servant to the employer that sent me to school to learn what I do NOW for a living
I had a former employer I had been working at for months and try to get me to sign one of these "if we send you for training, you owe us the entire bill for a year, then 25% less every year after that" things. I told them to shove it up their butt, in just those words, and they were, of course, shocked. They were a telephone system install/repair company, so their guys would get hired and go to 4 weeks of training, then never go anywhere again. It made some sense the you have to protect yourself from that.

However, I was an IT guy. I was off at 1 and 2 week courses (that they wanted me to take) every couple of months. After I showed them how the numbers were going to work out for me the majority partner let me slide on it. Otherwise I would have just let them fire me.

Kerberos
01-20-2007, 10:17 AM
I had a former employer I had been working at for months and try to get me to sign one of these "if we send you for training, you owe us the entire bill for a year, then 25% less every year after that" things. I told them to shove it up their butt, in just those words, and they were, of course, shocked. They were a telephone system install/repair company, so their guys would get hired and go to 4 weeks of training, then never go anywhere again. It made some sense the you have to protect yourself from that.

However, I was an IT guy. I was off at 1 and 2 week courses (that they wanted me to take) every couple of months. After I showed them how the numbers were going to work out for me the majority partner let me slide on it. Otherwise I would have just let them fire me.

Mine was a family friends owned a Sale and Rentals store in my home town. Thier son and I went to school together from 5th grade till we graduated HS together. They sent us BOTH to school in Topeka 4 days a week for a year and a half .. they paid for his and paid me a salary while I was in school and I had to take loans.

I promised them 2 years of service after I graduated and I fullfilled my obiligation. I even gave them the right to meet the offer I got from the School district I work for now. They declined and the owner acted like I was betraying him. I told him loyalty was a two way street and I wanted to be paid what I was worth. In the long run I am better off.
This past year I made $18,000 in overtime alone.

I worked for Coca-Cola for 6 years before I decided to go back to school. I left a $45,000 a year job back then to work for less than $24K. $45K here in JC Kansas would be close to making $60,000 in the KC area 8 years ago. Not shit loads but definately better than most in this area.

Life sucked ass as I had absolutely nothing....... but 20/20 hindsight shows me that I learned a lot when I had nothing and had to work for everything I got.

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BWillie
01-20-2007, 11:33 AM
Hey, if you are stupid enough to get a loan that has 5000% interest, you deserve what you get. I've had a credit card for 10 years, and I've NEVER paid interest on it. I've even finaggled my way to get a 5000 loan from my credit card without interest as long as I paid the min payment each month. It's really not that hard to not be retarded. People opposed to Pay Day loans and other such places need to get off their moral high horse.

Demonpenz
01-20-2007, 12:15 PM
thats hard watching them set up shop next to a military base and watching kids take out those loans because they won't get a check from uncle sam for awhile

Military personnel vulnerable

Soldiers are ideal targets for payday loans. They have a steady income from the government, often with little to spare, at an average of $1,200 per month for new recruits. At deployment time, when military families are faced with extra expenses at home and abroad, they may be more vulnerable to the promise of quick cash from payday lenders.

Evidence of targeting includes use of business names that imply a military connection (such as Armed Forces Loans and Military Financial, Inc.), employment of former military personnel to solicit soldiers as borrowers, and the clustering of payday lending stores around military bases. The Center for Responsible Lending is documenting this clustering in North Carolina. Similar studies are underway in Florida and California, according to a recent article in the New York Times.
Payday lending routinely brings financial devastation

Navy Petty Officer 2nd Class Jason Withrow, stationed on a nuclear submarine at Kings Bay Naval Submarine Base in Georgia, told ArmyTimes.com that in a five-month period of using payday loans, “I spent about $7,000 in interest and didn't even pay on the principal $1,900.” Army specialist Myron Hicks, stationed at Fort Stewart, Georgia, borrowed $1,500 for a car repair. He paid back $3,000 -- twice what he borrowed.
Payday lending threatens military mission

Payday lending is a problem not only for the soldiers, but for the mission of the military. As retired Navy captain Chalker W. Brown said in the New York Times article, “The last thing you want is a young sailor programming a Tomahawk missile in the Persian Gulf who is worrying about whether his car is being repossessed back home.” Rear Admiral David Architzel, commander of the Navy's Mid-Atlantic Region, has also voiced his concern: “You want to know that [service men and women] are focused and paying attention. When they are not paying attention bad things happen.”

Kerberos
01-20-2007, 01:20 PM
Military personnel vulnerable



Evidence of targeting includes use of business names that imply a military connection (such as Armed Forces Loans and Military Financial, Inc.), employment of former military personnel to solicit soldiers as borrowers, and the clustering of payday lending stores around military bases. The Center for Responsible Lending is documenting this clustering in North Carolina. Similar studies are underway in Florida and California, according to a recent article in the New York Times.
Payday lending routinely brings financial devastation

I don't need no fuggin RESEARCH firm or Center for Responisble lending to tell me the military is getting FUGGED right here in Junction City next to Ft.Riley.

I can't throw a goddammed rock in any direction without hitting a check cashing joint and if it ricochet off of that building it would hit another one right next door.

They kinda went away when the BigRedOne pulled out in the early 90's but since it came back and troop strength is getting back up to strength here they are starting to open back up ALL OVER.

I know Geary County has a CAP on the interest they can charge but I KNOW that they charge EVERYTHING they can under the law.

One of them got BUSTED back in the late 80's for gouging super high interest rates and lost a court case and had to pay back ALL interest OVER the legal amout PLUS INTEREST to everyone they Fugged over the previous 5 years before that. They just about went bankrupt. Not that it would have hurt my feelings.

But I agree that they need to at least put a cap on the legal amount of interest on what these places charge. IMO Simplex! :thumb:

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J Diddy
01-20-2007, 01:25 PM
Hey, if you are stupid enough to get a loan that has 5000% interest, you deserve what you get. I've had a credit card for 10 years, and I've NEVER paid interest on it. I've even finaggled my way to get a 5000 loan from my credit card without interest as long as I paid the min payment each month. It's really not that hard to not be retarded. People opposed to Pay Day loans and other such places need to get off their moral high horse.

speaking of high horse

go bowe
01-20-2007, 02:24 PM
did someone say "hgh"? :bong:

Kerberos
01-20-2007, 04:20 PM
did someone say "THC"? :bong:

Fixed your post for ya!

:D

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