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dirk digler
01-19-2007, 11:28 AM
I don't know about this. The Redskins were ranked 13th in Total O, 3 spots in front of the Chiefs and the Chiefs had 7 seconds better TOP.

The Redskins also ran 979 plays compared to the Chiefs 1004 which equals 1.56 less plays than the Chiefs per game.

The Redskins were ranked 19th in 3rd% and the Chiefs 10th.

The Redskins were ranked #2 in giveaways with only 17 for the whole season.

I am not trying to defend Saunders even though it looks like I am but I don't get the fascination with Chiefs trying to blame the demise of their D on the offense when Saunders was here.

Maybe somebody smarter than me can explain it to me because I don't understand.

WASHINGTON’S DEMISE: Could it be that what the Chiefs proved for the better part of five years and what the Redskins showed in 2006 is that it’s impossible to have a good defense when Al Saunders is your team’s offensive coordinator?

There are plenty of people in the NFL, and around Arrowhead Stadium, who don’t think it’s a coincidence that when Saunders took over preparing the offensive game plans for the Redskins, their defense turned in a very bad season. The Redskins finished 31st in the defensive rankings, down from their ninth spot after the 2005 season. With the exception of red zone defense, Washington was among the league’s worst defenses in every other category. They were especially bad in big defensive plays, finishing last in sacks per pass plays (19 sacks in 505 passing plays) and takeaways (only six interceptions and six fumbles recovered, for 12 takeaways.)

Brock
01-19-2007, 11:31 AM
Shameless.

Baby Lee
01-19-2007, 11:31 AM
If the correlation of Marty and Playoffs failure is sufficient to make a cause/effect argument, regardless of the merits in each instance, why not in this case?
ie, I don't know exactly how Al ruins defenses, but the numbers don't lie.

;) - [mostly] just posited to rile up the ranks.

dirk digler
01-19-2007, 11:32 AM
If the correlation of Marty and Playoffs failure is sufficient to make a cause/effect argument, regardless of the merits in each instance, why not in this case?
ie, I don't know exactly how Al ruins offenses, but the numbers don't lie.

;) - [mostly] just posited to rile up the ranks.

You mean ruins defenses?

bogie
01-19-2007, 11:33 AM
WASHINGTON’S DEMISE: Could it be that what the Chiefs proved for the better part of five years and what the Redskins showed in 2006 is that it’s impossible to have a good defense when Al Saunders is your team’s offensive coordinator?
That makes no sense at all.

Baby Lee
01-19-2007, 11:34 AM
You mean ruins defenses?
If only Homer Simpson had a catchphrase to encapsulate my embarassment.

tk13
01-19-2007, 11:35 AM
Hahaha, hooooly crap. They won't let it go, will they? Carl must've really hated Al, or something. We're an entire year removed from this and they're still trying to throw guys under the bus.

Where, the reality of the situation is there were too many cooks in the kitchen, especially on defense. There was a huge ESPN article somebody posted midseason about all of this... it was really good. What happened... they hired Jerry Gray, and this coach and that coach... and the coaches don't all get along with the players and vice versa. And even worse, there were such egos behind the scenes, that they didn't even have secondary meetings.... the CB's and safeties actually had their own separate meetings during the week, they didn't communicate. And some of the players were badmouthing Gregg Williams behind his back, etc. But that's okay, it's all Al Saunders fault!

DaneMcCloud
01-19-2007, 11:38 AM
WASHINGTON’S DEMISE: Could it be that what the Chiefs proved for the better part of five years and what the Redskins showed in 2006 is that it’s impossible to have a good defense when Al Saunders is your team’s offensive coordinator?
That makes no sense at all.

What he's trying to imply is that by scoring too quicky or not putting together long, clock eating drives, it's impossible for the defense to have a high ranking statistically because the defense is on the field so much.

This has to be one of THE DUMBEST claims that have come out of that ass kissing Bob Gretz mouth. He should be ashamed of himself.

What a loser.

StcChief
01-19-2007, 11:38 AM
'skins would be better if Dan Synder would keep his nose out of it. Rich meddling owner.

dirk digler
01-19-2007, 11:38 AM
Hahaha, hooooly crap. They won't let it go, will they? Carl must've really hated Al, or something. We're an entire year removed from this and they're still trying to throw guys under the bus.

Where, the reality of the situation is there were too many cooks in the kitchen, especially on defense. There was a huge ESPN article somebody posted midseason about all of this... it was really good. What happened... they hired Jerry Gray, and this coach and that coach... and the coaches don't all get along with the players and vice versa. And even worse, there were such egos behind the scenes, that they didn't even have secondary meetings.... the CB's and safeties actually had their own separate meetings during the week, they didn't communicate. And some of the players were badmouthing Gregg Williams behind his back, etc. But that's okay, it's all Al Saunders fault!

Yep I remember that article as well.

Maybe the Redskins D sucked because the players hate playing for Gregg Williams? Doesn't anyone think of that? He was bascially run out of Buffalo for the same reasons.

siberian khatru
01-19-2007, 11:39 AM
I posted this on another thread in response to that Gretz thing.

From an epic Redskins season-ender in the Washington Post:

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dy...7010201192.html

When the Redskins hired Al Saunders to run their offense last winter, one NFL assistant said Williams was troubled by the move, not from any dislike for Saunders but because he worried that Saunders's frenetic offense, which often produced touchdowns quickly, would put pressure on Williams's defense. With the pace of the game accelerated, the defense would naturally give up more yards and points and its ranking would suffer.

"I can't do this," the assistant said Williams told him. The assistant asked that he not be identified by name because he considers both men to be friends.

When asked about this, Williams said he has a high regard for Saunders going back to Super Bowl XXXIV, when Saunders's Rams beat Williams's Titans. In fact, Williams is convinced he's the reason Saunders is with the Redskins, having gone through his file on the coach while he himself was on several lists for head coaching openings last January. He decided if he were to be offered a job, Saunders would be his first choice for offensive coordinator, a fact he said he mentioned to Gibbs one day.

A few days later, Gibbs walked into Williams's office and said he had hired Saunders, shocking Williams, who never knew the Redskins were courting him.

"I hired him because of what you told me about him," Williams remembered Gibbs telling him.

Williams smiled. "He's here because of me bragging on him to Coach" Gibbs, he said.

Either way, to outsiders, Saunders's offense has in fact affected the Redskins' defense -- a lot. Cowboys Coach Bill Parcells mentioned as much in a New York Times magazine article in the fall. While watching game tape of the Redskins, he noted how little regard Saunders seemed to have for his defensive coordinator. The NFL assistant who said Williams fretted about the hiring has watched the Redskins this season specifically to see how Williams would deal with the faster pace of the offense. He agreed with Parcells's assessment, adding that it was the biggest reason for Washington's defensive collapse.

The same league assistant who spoke of Williams's stubbornness has broken down the Redskins' game tapes and said defensive players weren't getting time to rest because Saunders's offense was not putting together sustained drives, as it did in 2005. Either Washington scored fast or the complex system stalled, pushing the offense off the field after three plays. Neither was conducive to defensive dominance, the assistant said.

"Scoring points in this league is great," the assistant said. "But sometimes you can score too quickly."

siberian khatru
01-19-2007, 11:40 AM
I still find the argument hard to buy.

But it's not just the Chiefs who are saying it. Apparently Parcells believes it too.

DaneMcCloud
01-19-2007, 11:44 AM
"Scoring points in this league is great," the assistant said. "But sometimes you can score too quickly."

Yeah, I greatly prefer the run, run, pass, punt to quickly scoring a touchdown. :rolleyes:

Williams is an overpaid, whiney pussy. I guess being paid 2.5 million a year to figure out how to coordinate a defense isn't enough. I guess if you fail, it's better to blame someone else than to find a solution to the problem, either through schemes, personnel or coaching.

Gregg Williams can kiss my ass.

dirk digler
01-19-2007, 11:45 AM
I still find the argument hard to buy.

But it's not just the Chiefs who are saying it. Apparently Parcells believes it too.

It would make sense if true but it is not true.

The Redskins were ranked 16th in the league for TOP with 29:59 the #1 team was the Ravens at 32:49.

The only stat that could make that argument is they were #19 in 3rd% on O with 37.4%. The #1 team was the Colts at 56.1% but they are alot higher than the team behind them

btlook1
01-19-2007, 11:50 AM
I don't see how....blame Saunders for the defense! NO WAY! I would have loved to still have Al calling the plays in fact to I believe that if he was still here we would all be looking forward to watching the Chiefs in the AFC championship game. My opinion is that the biggest downfall of this season was the offensive game plan! They should have attacked more....how long ago was it that we had a top 5 offense?????

JakeT
01-19-2007, 11:51 AM
A couple of statements to read before my post -

I believe that Gretz is serious cock gobbler
I think Al Saunders/DV were great O-coordinators

But I also believe to some degree you become what you practice. Look at the Colts (soft run D) and the Chiefs total Crap D of DV era -- everyday in practice these guys are lining up trying to figure out what the O is going to do -- great O coordinators will shift guys around, overload zones and do what it takes to create a favorable match up (Unlike Herm but's thats another post)

The D starts to think too much, they react slow and become soft.

Teams with tough D's Ravens, Bears generally practice more against smash mouth O's.

My thoughts anyway -

bogie
01-19-2007, 11:52 AM
I understand how a bad offense can negatively effect the D. That was apparent in our last game. By the end of the half the D was already huffin and a puffin. By the 4th quarter they were done.

Simplex3
01-19-2007, 11:52 AM
I just can't imagine the pressure a defensive coordinator must be under when they have to find a way to keep the opposition below 28 points every week. Those poor guys.

Baby Lee
01-19-2007, 11:54 AM
It would make sense if true but it is not true.

The Redskins were ranked 16th in the league for TOP with 29:59 the #1 team was the Ravens at 32:49.

The only stat that could make that argument is they were #19 in 3rd% on O with 37.4%. The #1 team was the Colts at 56.1% but they are alot higher than the team behind them
Overall TOP is not necessarily an accurate measure of what's being discussed. I'd be interested to see the number of drives per game, to see if it increased. An O can get 30 minutes TOP with 10 3 minute drives, or with 3 10 minute drives.

Baby Lee
01-19-2007, 11:55 AM
I don't see how....blame Saunders for the defense! NO WAY! I would have loved to still have Al calling the plays in fact to I believe that if he was still here we would all be looking forward to watching the Chiefs in the AFC championship game. My opinion is that the biggest downfall of this season was the offensive game plan! They should have attacked more....how long ago was it that we had a top 5 offense?????
A Roaf/Richardson ago.

jspchief
01-19-2007, 11:57 AM
Overall TOP is not necessarily an accurate measure of what's being discussed. I'd be interested to see the number of drives per game, to see if it increased. An O can get 30 minutes TOP with 10 3 minute drives, or with 3 10 minute drives.I agree. TOP alone doesn't address the issue they are talking about.

A better stat would be time per possesion. In other words, when the offense gets the ball, how long do they hold on to it to give the D some rest?

tk13
01-19-2007, 11:58 AM
http://www.chiefsplanet.com/BB/showthread.php?t=153030

There's the thread on Chiefsplanet...

Here's the full article:
http://www.extremeskins.com/forums/showthread.php?t=182732

Chiefnj
01-19-2007, 12:01 PM
The Chiefs are the most insecure franchise in all of major sports. It's a disgrace that the teams official website is full of articles that attack former coaches and assistants and spend so much time battling the media.

Throwing darts at a former coordinator when the present team is in the midst of a freefall on that side of the ball and perhaps the worst coached playoff game of the year?

It's like GM pointing the finger at Japanese recalls rather than worrying about improving their own product.

tk13
01-19-2007, 12:04 PM
....but the almighty dollar has created too many power trips at Redskin Park, or as one Redskins player said, "Too many chiefs and not enough indians." Naturally, heads, or chiefs, may roll this coming offseason, including Williams' and some of Williams' staff. But that's getting ahead of ourselves, ahead of how this all came about.

To simplify matters, and to understand this year's 3-7 record, you have to go back to Gibbs' first comeback year of 2004. On offense, he put his old band together, bringing back coaches Don Breaux, Joe Bugel and Rennie Simmons, all good, loyal, stand-up guys who played huge roles in the Super Bowl years. They were all affable workaholics, and humble, too, but when they returned for Gibbs' second stint, they appeared bumbling and overmatched, stuck in 1983. And from what I'm told, no one felt that more than the defensive coordinator, Gregg Williams.

Williams told people that the offense was almost "high school" that first year. Gibbs, Breaux and Bugel were practically holding caucuses before every play call, continually wasting timeouts, and the defense was forced all year to carry the team. And in all fairness, Williams' group was spectacular.

Williams, who'd been fired the previous year as the Bills' head coach, had a ton of adulation tossed his way, and his swagger at Redskin Park was unmatched. He liked to tell people that he'd only agreed to take the job if Snyder "didn't stick his nose" into personnel matters, and Snyder -- who wanted to win in the worst way -- had agreed. That gave Williams a feeling of invincibility, and considering the egg that the offense laid that year in comparison, he probably deserved to feel that way.

But it was a blind confidence, and when Pierce became a free agent after the 2004 season, and talks began to stall, Williams, according to Redskins sources, claimed Pierce was "replaceable." It was the first hint of arrogance under the new Gibbs regime, a sense that Williams felt it was his system, not the players, that dominated offenses.

So that takes us to now, takes us to a Gregg Williams defense that is ranked last -- last! -- in the NFC. Opposing quarterbacks have a collective 103 passer rating against them, and on third downs, the Redskins give up a first down 43.5 percent of the time. They can't get off the field, and now it's the offensive coaches who have to be wondering if Williams is "high school."

The problem, according to a notable Redskins player, is a scheme, a staff and a play-calling regimen that is flawed and predictable, and a sense that Williams is on too much of a power trip to adjust.

"Why are we the 30th defense in the league? I think coaches got arrogant, I think Gregg got arrogant," the player said Tuesday, asking not to be identified. "They thought they figured it all out. They thought, 'We can win with scheme, we don't need players.' Don't be mistaken, this is a player-driven game, and so you need players. Any time in life when somebody thinks they've got it all figured out, it's going to come and get you. It's going to come and get you … the sentiment is a lot of guys are mad because the coaches think it's all about them. They think they're f------ geniuses, thinking they can just let guys go and get away with handling people badly."

To be specific, Redskins defenders, particularly in the secondary, have regressed, Taylor being the main culprit. Out of the University of Miami, Taylor was arguably the most-talented cover safety to enter the league in years. His first preseason game, he intercepted two passes, returning one for a score. But he's been tinkered with so much now, Redskins players say he no longer plays on instinct.

A lot of Taylor's woes can be traced a lot to the hiring of Steve Jackson as Redskins safety coach. Jackson came with Williams from Buffalo, where he was a lower-level defensive coach, and Jackson supposedly was hurt when Williams chose DeWayne Walker as his main secondary coach in 2003 and 2004. He wanted the job himself, and when Walker left after the 2005 season, he assumed he'd get it. But Williams' old defensive coordinator in Buffalo, Jerry Gray, had just become available, and Williams hired him. Jackson was ticked.

So Williams threw him a bone, a bone which has literally torn up the secondary. He made Jackson safeties coach and Gray cornerbacks coach and allowed Jackson to run his own meetings. That means that the Redskins' safeties and corners do not meet together, which is practically unheard of.

"Talk to any coach in the league, and ask them, 'Have you ever heard of corners and safeties not meeting together?'" the Redskins player says. "They'd say, 'What are you talking about?' That's crazy. But ever since minicamps, OTAs, training camp, we hadn't met as a secondary. On the field, the corners will start making a call or doing something, and the safeties will be, 'What are you talking about? We didn't go over that.' So now the corners are expecting help in certain situations, and the safeties aren't getting there in time. And people got beat in the secondary.

"Everybody was saying they had to start meeting together. So the last three weeks they have. But 40 percent of the time Steven Jackson's not in the meeting. Because he pouts, because Jerry's running the meeting."

Jackson began teaching Taylor and Co. not to read the quarterback, but to read the receivers' breaks and releases and react accordingly. He wanted them to be aggressive out of Cover 2, to help on the run, even though Cover 2 is not known to be a run-stopping defense. Williams wants to call it a lot because, ideally, if you can stop the run with a Cover 2, you have the best of both worlds, because it's specifically designed to prevent the deep ball. But Jackson kept exhorting Taylor and his early-season safety mate, Adam Archuleta, to be aggressive playing the run out of the Cover 2, and they began to get beat on the play-action pass repeatedly.

According to the Redskins player, Jackson then began berating his players profanely -- although he tends to go lighter on Taylor -- and they reached bottom in Philadelphia, when Donte' Stallworth beat Taylor deep for an 84-yard touchdown. Witnesses say that at that point, the other defensive coaches became officially peeved at Jackson for making Taylor "play like a robot," and for turning him into a confused, regressing player who now tunes out coaches and teammates.

"And then Steve Jackson began pouting at practice," the player said. "He pouts at practice. He'll stand by himself and won't coach anybody."

It's all Al Saunders fault though.

Nzoner
01-19-2007, 12:05 PM
The Chiefs are the most insecure franchise in all of major sports. It's a disgrace that the teams official website is full of articles that attack former coaches and assistants and spend so much time battling the media.

Throwing darts at a former coordinator when the present team is in the midst of a freefall on that side of the ball and perhaps the worst coached playoff game of the year?

It's like GM pointing the finger at Japanese recalls rather than worrying about improving their own product.

Next it'll be the fans fault because enough of us aren't showing up at Arrowhead.

ptlyon
01-19-2007, 12:19 PM
Next it'll be the fans fault because enough of us aren't showing up at Arrowhead.

AMEN.

Then, not enough fans at the away games. Real fans that is.

jspchief
01-19-2007, 12:35 PM
The Chiefs are the most insecure franchise in all of major sports. It's a disgrace that the teams official website is full of articles that attack former coaches and assistants and spend so much time battling the media.

Throwing darts at a former coordinator when the present team is in the midst of a freefall on that side of the ball and perhaps the worst coached playoff game of the year?

It's like GM pointing the finger at Japanese recalls rather than worrying about improving their own product.I agree. It's embarrassing the way the Chiefs' PR department can't rise above this stuff.

Mr. Laz
01-19-2007, 12:39 PM
so lemme get this straight...


in one breath, they say "Ha Ha ... look Saunders isn't doing jack in Washington!"

in the next breath, they are saying "Look .. the washington defense is getting killed because of Saunders high powered "scores too fast" offense"




The Chiefs have always been real quick to blame everyone but themselves. The have a portion of the fanbase brainwashed into believing the same crap.

NewChief
01-19-2007, 12:39 PM
Isn't Greg Williams the one from Missouri?

Woodrow Call
01-19-2007, 12:40 PM
Isn't Greg Williams the one from Missouri?

Yep. I believe MOHillbilly is related to him.

NewChief
01-19-2007, 12:41 PM
Yep. I believe MOHillbilly is related to him.

That's what I thought. I figured to have heard from him by now on this thread. Maybe he's driving to Dane McCloud's house to cut out his liver and feed it to his pit bulls.

crazycoffey
01-19-2007, 12:44 PM
so lemme get this straight...


in one breath, they say "Ha Ha ... look Saunders isn't doing jack in Washington!"

in the next breath, they are saying "Look .. the washington defense is getting killed because of Saunders high powered "scores too fast" offense"




The Chiefs have always been real quick to blame everyone but themselves. The have a portion of the fanbase brainwashed into believing the same crap.


http://www.chiefsplanet.com/BB/images/posticonnew.gif Today, 12:39 PM Post #11 (http://www.chiefsplanet.com/BB/showpost.php?p=3715144&postcount=11)siberian khatru
This is Chiefs football

http://www.chiefsplanet.com/BB/customavatars/avatar1583_15.gif

Joined: Jul 2002
Location: The Gates of Delirium I posted this on another thread in response to that Gretz thing.

From an epic Redskins season-ender in the Washington Post:

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dy...7010201192.html

When the Redskins hired Al Saunders to run their offense last winter, one NFL assistant said Williams was troubled by the move, not from any dislike for Saunders but because he worried that Saunders's frenetic offense, which often produced touchdowns quickly, would put pressure on Williams's defense. With the pace of the game accelerated, the defense would naturally give up more yards and points and its ranking would suffer.




did you not read this article too, it's not just CP and his PR department.

Mecca
01-19-2007, 12:50 PM
This is the most retarded thing I've ever read........our organization sure shows class eh?

mcan
01-19-2007, 12:50 PM
If there is any possitive coorelation with Al Saunders coaching on teams with bad defenses, I'd be hard pressed to say that is because of "scoring too quickly." I'd be more inclined to believe that the defense sucks because they get whipped every day in practice by Al Saunders' offense, and when they finally hit the field on Sunday, they play like they practice.

Chief Faithful
01-19-2007, 12:51 PM
I understand how a bad offense can negatively effect the D. That was apparent in our last game. By the end of the half the D was already huffin and a puffin. By the 4th quarter they were done.

True, but top defenses in the past where able to get the job done even though the offense stunk. We saw it in the recent past in Tampa, Baltimore, Chicago, and Philly. If a defense can control a game with a bad offense why can they not control a game when the team has a good offense?

I still believe the talent was so bad in KC by 2003 it did not matter what the offense was doing.

DaneMcCloud
01-19-2007, 12:51 PM
That's what I thought. I figured to have heard from him by now on this thread. Maybe he's driving to Dane McCloud's house to cut out his liver and feed it to his pit bulls.

Thanks for the head's up. It's at least a 24 hour drive from KC to LA, so I've got "24" hours to live. Better call Jack Bauer.

Chief Faithful
01-19-2007, 01:00 PM
If there is any possitive coorelation with Al Saunders coaching on teams with bad defenses, I'd be hard pressed to say that is because of "scoring too quickly." I'd be more inclined to believe that the defense sucks because they get whipped every day in practice by Al Saunders' offense, and when they finally hit the field on Sunday, they play like they practice.

Maybe, but there are a whole lot of Chiefs starting defenders from 2003 - 2005 that are no longer in the NFL.

Rausch
01-19-2007, 01:21 PM
Next it'll be the fans fault because enough of us aren't showing up at Arrowhead.

Following his line of logic it'd be due to too MANY fans at the game. The defense can't hear all Kawika's calls because of the crowd noise or some such nonsense...

Nzoner
01-19-2007, 01:32 PM
Following his line of logic it'd be due to too MANY fans at the game. The defense can't hear all Kawika's calls because of the crowd noise or some such nonsense...

I never was very good at connect the dots :D

crazycoffey
01-19-2007, 01:33 PM
This is the most retarded thing I've ever read........our organization sure shows class eh?


read the article in the middle of this thread from the washington post, it says the same thing and Al IS on thier staff, not a past coach.

FringeNC
01-19-2007, 01:42 PM
If the correlation of Marty and Playoffs failure is sufficient to make a cause/effect argument, regardless of the merits in each instance, why not in this case?
ie, I don't know exactly how Al ruins defenses, but the numbers don't lie.

;) - [mostly] just posited to rile up the ranks.

2001 Rams couldn't have possibly existed... Saunders-on-Steroids offense, AND the #3 defense?

FringeNC
01-19-2007, 01:49 PM
Gretz has been writing some of the lamest stuff I have ever read...

It started off with using the one sample of Pittsburgh, suggesting that Pittsburgh style of play was the only way to win the Super Bowl, completing neglecting EVERY OTHER YEAR. Column after column is harping on the same shit -- that our old offense was a liability, not an asset. Doesn't pass the laugh test.

Baby Lee
01-19-2007, 01:50 PM
2001 Rams couldn't have possibly existed... Saunders-on-Steroids offense, AND the #3 defense?
WHERE was Saunders in 2001?

Coach
01-19-2007, 01:51 PM
If there was anyone left who thought that Gretz had an ounce of credibility, it should be gone now.

He should spend more time flipping burgers.

Coach
01-19-2007, 01:52 PM
Following his line of logic it'd be due to too MANY fans at the game. The defense can't hear all Kawika's calls because of the crowd noise or some such nonsense...

Every time there's a fire in a city... the fire department shows up!

This can't be a coincidence! By 'Gretz Logic' they must be starting the fire!

FringeNC
01-19-2007, 01:54 PM
WHERE was Saunders in 2001?

You just didn't type that. All the criticisms that apply to Saunders apply to Martz doubly. And you know that.

Baby Lee
01-19-2007, 02:04 PM
You just didn't type that. All the criticisms that apply to Saunders apply to Martz doubly. And you know that.
No, Saunders is the one who magically effs up a defense.

Martz effs up his own offense against good Ds because he refuses to abandon the pass.

See, just like we don't get to say "all the criticisms of Marty apply to The Ravens, Bucs Panthers and Steelers doubly"

ROFL ROFL

FringeNC
01-19-2007, 02:18 PM
No, Saunders is the one who magically effs up a defense.

Martz effs up his own offense against good Ds because he refuses to abandon the pass.

See, just like we don't get to say "all the criticisms of Marty apply to The Ravens, Bucs Panthers and Steelers doubly"



ROFL ROFL


The similarity of the Rams and Chiefs offense is hardly comparable to the similarity or lack thereof among the teams you listed. Having a strong defense and playing not to lose football is NOT the same thing -- the Patriots being the prime example.

DaWolf
01-19-2007, 02:57 PM
2001 Rams couldn't have possibly existed... Saunders-on-Steroids offense, AND the #3 defense?
Saunders was in KC in 2001. You mean the 1999 season, and that was a Martz offense. Saunders was the WR coach. They had the No 6 D, and the next year it promptly collapsed to No 31 once people figured the Rams out, and with Dv not around to demand a bit of balance and they went pass crazy...

Baby Lee
01-19-2007, 03:08 PM
Saunders was in KC in 2001. You mean the 1999 season, and that was a Martz offense. Saunders was the WR coach. They had the No 6 D, and the next year it promptly collapsed to No 31 once people figured the Rams out, and with Dv not around to demand a bit of balance and they went pass crazy...
No, he means 2001. Saunders wasn't there then either, but Lovie Smith brought the D back to #3.

dirk digler
01-19-2007, 03:11 PM
I agree. TOP alone doesn't address the issue they are talking about.

A better stat would be time per possesion. In other words, when the offense gets the ball, how long do they hold on to it to give the D some rest?

Valid points and if I had the time I would do it. I did glance at their drive charts on NFL.com and the drives weren't very long.

I would mention though that Redskins played a good chunk of the season with a rookie QB and no Clinton Portis.

KCChiefsFan88
01-19-2007, 03:25 PM
This is absolute bullshit!

There was a piece on ESPN.com a few months ago about how word around the league was how overrated Gregg Williams was as a defensive coordinator and it was HIM and his rocky relationship with his players that was killing their defense.

I see King Carl can't help himself when it comes to taking cheap shots at Al Saunders, but in reality Al is going to have the last laugh, just like he did when Carl decided to hire Goonther over Saunders as head coach. Goonther was a miserable failure, while Al went to the Lambs and won a Super Bowl.

Al Saunders is the coach the Chiefs should have hired.

crazycoffey
01-19-2007, 03:36 PM
agian, notice there is another article in this thread, not written by Ghay Gretz (NTTAWWT) but instead written by a washington post columnist saying basically the same thing about saunders, it's not just carl, Dammit Planet, do some reading.

ChiefFan31
01-19-2007, 03:41 PM
Wow, could Gretz possibly be a bigger Ass Puppet than he is for Carl? At least have some self respect...good grief.

Edit - to the post above. No, I dont feel like it. I didnt even read past the first two sentences from ass puppet.

Chiefnj
01-19-2007, 03:42 PM
agian, notice there is another article in this thread, not written by Ghay Gretz (NTTAWWT) but instead written by a washington post columnist saying basically the same thing about saunders, it's not just carl, Dammit Planet, do some reading.

Part of the problem is that the Chiefs organization should be above writing articles about past coordinators and taking shots at them in how they are performing in their new job. It is a classless thing to do and is aimed at deflecting criticism away from the current team. Do the Jets have an article this week about Dick Curl?

KCChiefsFan88
01-19-2007, 03:43 PM
Here is the article from ESPN Insider they trashes Gregg Williams and puts the majority of the Redskins defensive struggles this season on him. Anyone who wants drink from the Carl Peterson Kool-Aid and take shots at Al Saunders should read this.


http://proxy.espn.go.com/nfl/columns/story?id=2672668

They're irrelevant by Thanksgiving again, and somehow there hasn't been steam coming out of Joe Gibbs' ears. I covered Gibbs in the '80s, the glory '80s, when losses were like death, when he micromanaged, when he used to bring in his struggling players and offer them a bible. One year, the punt team couldn't cover a kick, so he hired a second special teams coach. One year, a player anonymously ripped his methods in the press, so he called a team meeting and ordered the mystery player to raise his hand. Nobody did. He might've been cut.

That's ancient history now, because Joe Gibbs is 3-7 and, by all accounts, a grandfather figure at Redskin Park. You ask players what they think of him, and they say, "Good dude." If Joe Gibbs was 3-7 in 1987, nobody would've been saying "Good dude" -- they'd have been cursing him for the three-hour practices. Joe, the first time around, would've fixed this by now, but instead he appears to be a burned out coach again, who is allowing his defensive coaching staff to run amok.

For whatever reason, this stubborn, controlling, innovative Hall of Fame coach has chosen to be more of an observer this season, to be a CEO, to let his millionaire coordinators earn their keep. That's why the team doesn't have his smashmouth mentality anymore, his fingerprints. I asked an Indianapolis Colts defender what he thought of Al Saunders' Redskins offense, and he said, "Gimmicky." I asked a Redskins player what he thought of defensive guru Gregg Williams, and he said, "Arrogant. Thinks he invented the wheel."

It is a fractured team that, frankly, needs the old Gibbs to intervene. A year ago, when the team was 5-6, he held player meetings, got the pulse of the locker room and rode Clinton Portis and a stout defense to the second round of the playoffs. It was vintage Gibbs; he personally willed them to January. But now, on Thanksgiving weekend of '06, it's apparent last year taxed him way too much. He doesn't call plays anymore. He may or may not have the pulse of the locker room anymore. And he may or may not be fuming about it anymore.

So that's where we are, trying to understand why the Washington Redskins are the biggest flop, the biggest turkey of the season. You originally could've argued for Miami, or Tampa Bay or Pittsburgh, but not any longer. Miami's gotten hot behind Joey Harrington, and Tampa Bay lost its starting quarterback early, and Pittsburgh's suffering through a predictable post-Super Bowl malaise.

So, no doubt, that leaves the Redskins. Forbes Magazine keeps saying they are the most valuable NFL franchise, the Yankees of football. Their offensive and defensive coordinators earn approximately $5 million a year combined, their budget is the moon, and owner Dan Snyder's jet -- Redskin One -- is probably already fueling up to greet Nate Clements and Dwight Freeney on the first day of 2007 free agency.

They are money-driven, but not always money-wise, and the decisions to throw cash at every problem, or free agent, or coach, has created ego and narcissism. It's not necessarily Gibbs' fault, because he didn't draw it up this way or imagine it happening, but the almighty dollar has created too many power trips at Redskin Park, or as one Redskins player said, "Too many chiefs and not enough indians." Naturally, heads, or chiefs, may roll this coming offseason, including Williams' and some of Williams' staff. But that's getting ahead of ourselves, ahead of how this all came about.

To simplify matters, and to understand this year's 3-7 record, you have to go back to Gibbs' first comeback year of 2004. On offense, he put his old band together, bringing back coaches Don Breaux, Joe Bugel and Rennie Simmons, all good, loyal, stand-up guys who played huge roles in the Super Bowl years. They were all affable workaholics, and humble, too, but when they returned for Gibbs' second stint, they appeared bumbling and overmatched, stuck in 1983. And from what I'm told, no one felt that more than the defensive coordinator, Gregg Williams.

Williams told people that the offense was almost "high school" that first year. Gibbs, Breaux and Bugel were practically holding caucuses before every play call, continually wasting timeouts, and the defense was forced all year to carry the team. And in all fairness, Williams' group was spectacular. He used about three basic defenses and coverages, blitzed from all angles and asked his players to fly to the ball and play uninhibited. They were the No. 3 defense in the NFL, and a young middle linebacker named Antonio Pierce, an undrafted free agent from Arizona, was the absolute key to the unit. An injury to Michael Barrow forced Williams to move Pierce inside, where he'd never played before, but Pierce was smart, got people lined up, played sideline to sideline and was particularly fierce against the run. It was a pleasant surprise, and with the ball-hawking rookie safety Sean Taylor free to roam the field behind him, it was a physical, championship-type defense.

Williams, who'd been fired the previous year as the Bills' head coach, had a ton of adulation tossed his way, and his swagger at Redskin Park was unmatched. He liked to tell people that he'd only agreed to take the job if Snyder "didn't stick his nose" into personnel matters, and Snyder -- who wanted to win in the worst way -- had agreed. That gave Williams a feeling of invincibility, and considering the egg that the offense laid that year in comparison, he probably deserved to feel that way.

But it was a blind confidence, and when Pierce became a free agent after the 2004 season, and talks began to stall, Williams, according to Redskins sources, claimed Pierce was "replaceable." It was the first hint of arrogance under the new Gibbs regime, a sense that Williams felt it was his system, not the players, that dominated offenses. Cornerback Fred Smoot was also a free agent at the time, and again, Williams felt Smoot was expendable, even though losing a starting linebacker and a starting corner would necessitate an extensive defensive overhaul.

Of course, that made a mess of the draft. Instead of selecting the pass rusher they needed -- Shawne Merriman or Demarcus Ware -- they had to waste their first-round pick on replacing Smoot, and took a shot at Auburn cornerback Carlos Rogers. All their other picks basically went to Denver in a trade to get Auburn quarterback Jason Campbell, and so they had to replace Pierce from within. That meant Lemar Marshall, a career outside linebacker and converted DB, had to move inside for 2005, which was an outright risk.

But actually, again, Williams overachieved. Marshall played the pass better than Pierce did, although Williams did have to scheme more to stop the occasional bleeding on defense. He went often to Cover 2 defenses, meaning his safeties would play deeper, and his front seven would have to stop the run themselves. In other words, no "eight men in the box" to stop the run. But Tatum Bell and Tiki Barber exposed that run defense early, and the safeties were told they had to step up and stop the run from Cover 2, until the front seven got their act together. The insertion of LaVar Arrington into the run defense (for Warrick Holdman) helped get that solidified, although Arrington was again a clear victim of Williams' ego. Arrington was the highest-paid defender, and prone to freelancing -- he acted like he was bigger than the team -- and Williams was there to humble him. He made him a scapegoat, and wouldn't even talk to him at times, but once Arrington finally shut his mouth and acquiesced, he got to play. Was he an impact player anymore? No. But he helped stop the run, allowing them to play the Cover 2, and the defense went on a late-season tear to help get hobbling quarterback Mark Brunell to the playoffs.

The Skins finished as the No. 9 defense in the league, and Williams was naturally an absolute god in the minds of fans, and to some degree, Gibbs and Snyder. It's likely he would've been a front-runner for the Rams', Vikings' and Texans' head coaching jobs, but the Redskins tied him up with a ridiculous three-year contract worth a reported $8 million and a promise that if he didn't replace Gibbs as head coach, he'd earn another cool million. Well, that was power, and when it came time to recruit prospective free agents, Williams was heard bragging that he made more money than the head coaches he was recruiting against, that he carried more lumber than some head coaches in the league. Whether it was true or not, he believed it, and the players believed it, and that's how this all started heading downhill.

The first thing Williams did was wave goodbye to Arrington after the 2005 season, and deservedly so, because Arrington wasn't worth his contract or his griping. But Arrington was still, other than Taylor, the Redskins' most physical player, and he'd been disrespected by Williams publicly. And that's what didn't sit well with the teammates Arrington had left behind. Some players said they felt Williams never took the blame around Redskin Park, just passed it on, and now that he'd just received this jumbo pay hike, he was going to be even more incorrigible. The players felt it. They saw him jettison another cover corner, Walt Harris, who's intercepting passes now in San Francisco, and steady Ryan Clark, who has Troy Polamalu's back in Pittsburgh now, and veteran safety Omar Stoutmire, who's starting in New Orleans. They saw a revolving door. Again.

So that takes us to now, takes us to a Gregg Williams defense that is ranked last -- last! -- in the NFC. Opposing quarterbacks have a collective 103 passer rating against them, and on third downs, the Redskins give up a first down 43.5 percent of the time. They can't get off the field, and now it's the offensive coaches who have to be wondering if Williams is "high school."

The problem, according to a notable Redskins player, is a scheme, a staff and a play-calling regimen that is flawed and predictable, and a sense that Williams is on too much of a power trip to adjust.

"Why are we the 30th defense in the league? I think coaches got arrogant, I think Gregg got arrogant," the player said Tuesday, asking not to be identified. "They thought they figured it all out. They thought, 'We can win with scheme, we don't need players.' Don't be mistaken, this is a player-driven game, and so you need players. Any time in life when somebody thinks they've got it all figured out, it's going to come and get you. It's going to come and get you … the sentiment is a lot of guys are mad because the coaches think it's all about them. They think they're f------ geniuses, thinking they can just let guys go and get away with handling people badly."

To be specific, Redskins defenders, particularly in the secondary, have regressed, Taylor being the main culprit. Out of the University of Miami, Taylor was arguably the most-talented cover safety to enter the league in years. His first preseason game, he intercepted two passes, returning one for a score. But he's been tinkered with so much now, Redskins players say he no longer plays on instinct.

A lot of Taylor's woes can be traced a lot to the hiring of Steve Jackson as Redskins safety coach. Jackson came with Williams from Buffalo, where he was a lower-level defensive coach, and Jackson supposedly was hurt when Williams chose DeWayne Walker as his main secondary coach in 2003 and 2004. He wanted the job himself, and when Walker left after the 2005 season, he assumed he'd get it. But Williams' old defensive coordinator in Buffalo, Jerry Gray, had just become available, and Williams hired him. Jackson was ticked.

So Williams threw him a bone, a bone which has literally torn up the secondary. He made Jackson safeties coach and Gray cornerbacks coach and allowed Jackson to run his own meetings. That means that the Redskins' safeties and corners do not meet together, which is practically unheard of.

"Talk to any coach in the league, and ask them, 'Have you ever heard of corners and safeties not meeting together?'" the Redskins player says. "They'd say, 'What are you talking about?' That's crazy. But ever since minicamps, OTAs, training camp, we hadn't met as a secondary. On the field, the corners will start making a call or doing something, and the safeties will be, 'What are you talking about? We didn't go over that.' So now the corners are expecting help in certain situations, and the safeties aren't getting there in time. And people got beat in the secondary.

"Everybody was saying they had to start meeting together. So the last three weeks they have. But 40 percent of the time Steven Jackson's not in the meeting. Because he pouts, because Jerry's running the meeting."

On the field, Jackson's (and presumably Williams') techniques aren't working, either. The innovators of Cover 2, such as Monte Kiffin and Tony Dungy, want their safeties staying deep, 2 yards inside the numbers and staying squared up. They want them reading the quarterback and breaking downhill on everything.

But Jackson began teaching Taylor and Co. not to read the quarterback, but to read the receivers' breaks and releases and react accordingly. He wanted them to be aggressive out of Cover 2, to help on the run, even though Cover 2 is not known to be a run-stopping defense. Williams wants to call it a lot because, ideally, if you can stop the run with a Cover 2, you have the best of both worlds, because it's specifically designed to prevent the deep ball. But Jackson kept exhorting Taylor and his early-season safety mate, Adam Archuleta, to be aggressive playing the run out of the Cover 2, and they began to get beat on the play-action pass repeatedly.

According to the Redskins player, Jackson then began berating his players profanely -- although he tends to go lighter on Taylor -- and they reached bottom in Philadelphia, when Donte' Stallworth beat Taylor deep for an 84-yard touchdown. Witnesses say that at that point, the other defensive coaches became officially peeved at Jackson for making Taylor "play like a robot," and for turning him into a confused, regressing player who now tunes out coaches and teammates.

"And then Steve Jackson began pouting at practice," the player said. "He pouts at practice. He'll stand by himself and won't coach anybody. This last game in Tampa, we had a player at halftime go up to him and say, 'Are you going to just sit there and pout, or are you gonna f------ coach your guys up?'"

Williams, in the meantime, has not backed off of calling the Cover 2, perhaps out of stubbornness. And the rest of the league has clearly caught on.

"Guys are saying teams have figured Gregg out, his M.O.," the Redskins defender said. "They know he's going to play the run with Cover 2. They know he's going to come and blitz [leaving corners on an island] on third down, and none of our blitzes are getting there anymore. We're trying to get too cute, we're trying to reinvent the wheel, instead of understanding what wins football games.

"Gregg Williams, I don't understand. They're so arrogant around here, they think they can stop the run in Cover 2. When it's an obvious running down, he calls Cover 2. That's a seven-man front. They're going to get 4 yards a carry every time. There might be some games where, hey, we're playing the crap out of the run in Cover 2. Well, that's great. Then, you call it. But when you're getting gashed Cover 2, Cover 2, and they come out in two tight ends, two running backs, and one wide receiver and we're in Cover 2. … And if we don't call Cover 2, we blitz. And you live by the blitz, you die by the blitz."

There have been myriad scapegoats, too, all players that Williams asked for. Scapegoat No. 1: Andre Carter. He was brought in to rush the passer, but players say Williams calls so many run stunts, he's not being allowed to do what he does best: speed rush.

"Last year, the D-line started playing well when they straight started rushing the passer," the player said. "They could beat guys one on one and get in a rhythm and tee off. Now, we're trying to get too exotic, so we've got Cornelius Griffin doing exotic stuff, who doesn't rush on third down anymore basically. … All these stunts and games? The D-linemen are just saying, man, just let us go, just let us go."

Scapegoat No. 2: Archuleta. Bears coach Lovie Smith, Archuleta's former coordinator and mentor in St. Louis, badly wanted him in Chicago, and Archuleta preferred Smith, too. But the Redskins offered the richest deal ever for a safety, and Archuleta accepted it -- according to his agent Gary Wichard -- because Williams promised him he'd blitz him more than Smith, that he'd keep him in the box. Instead, Archuleta's blitzed only a handful of times, and has been benched for Troy Vincent and now Vernon Fox.

Wichard says that Jackson and Williams haven't spoken to Archuleta since the Redskins' bye four weeks ago, and that rookie Reed Doughty, who's been mostly inactive this year, is getting reps ahead of him in practice this week. That means Archuleta, who signed for a $10 million bonus last spring, is on the scout team, which baffles plenty of NFL executives.

Scapegoat No. 3: Rogers. He's the cornerback that was left on an island on the go-ahead touchdown Sunday against Tampa Bay's Joey Galloway. Williams blitzed and missed, costing the team the score. Afterward, Williams took public blame for the call, a rarity, but a Redskins player said, "No, he didn't. In meetings, Carlos still heard about it."

So what you have, according to one Redskins player, is a fractured defense that isn't playing passionately for Williams anymore. After making examples of Pierce, Smoot, Arrington, Harris, Clark, Stoutmire -- and now Carter, Archuleta and Rogers -- the morale appears beyond repair.

"I think guys are fed up, man," the Redskins player said. "This is what I heard. Guys are talking. They're saying that's why Gregg started losing the team in Buffalo. Because guys got sick of it, sick of getting disrespected. There's a difference between being hard and coaching and disrespecting people all the time and calling people out. He started calling three or four guys out in the team meeting the Saturday night before the Philadelphia game. Just calling certain guys out for certain behavior and this and that. We're talking about 12 hours before the game, and you're calling different guys out for stuff? On- and off-the-field stuff? Just talking mess, going through your rant or whatever. Man, look, guys are getting fed up. And they're saying, a lot of guys in Buffalo, his last year in Buffalo, a lot of guys started popping back to him, popping off to him. Because you can't be a Buddy Ryan anymore in this league. You can't do it.

"And Gregg Williams says all the time, it's not my money. If Gregg was the one writing the checks, I don't know if he'd handle it that way. But he says it in meetings. He gives us speeches about, 'If you don't know what to do, you're going to be standing next to me on the sideline, I don't give a f---. That's where you're going to be. I need to be able to trust you. Hey, it's not my money. I don't care how much you make, I don't care who you are, I'm not the one writing the check, you need to know your assignments, know what to do.' That's what Gregg says. I wonder how Snyder would feel if he heard that one."

Snyder, according to sources, knows all about this, and, there is a sense the front office will push to replace Jackson and perhaps even Williams next season. At the same time, Williams still has supporters in the organization, too. They say the players ripping him have axes to grind, that Williams isn't the one whiffing on tackles and botching coverages. They say it's horrendous that one angry, anonymous player won't go on the record with his complaints, and they point out Williams hasn't played with a full roster all season. For instance, Williams has had to operate much of the year without a healthy Shawn Springs, his best corner, and without safety Pierson Prioleau, who was going to start for Archuleta on opening night until he tore his ACL on the opening kickoff. It doesn't help, either, that linebackers Marshall and Holdman aren't tackling well (Marshall's coming off of shoulder surgery), and there are some defensive players who aren't afraid to point the finger at themselves.

"You can't argue with Gregg Williams because we were No. 3 and No. 9 [in total defense] in previous years, so you can't argue that he's not a good coach," defensive end Phillip Daniels told the Washington Post last week. "The thing for us to do as players is we've got to look at ourselves in the morning to say, 'What can I do to help this team?' Whether it means studying more or anything little, technique and stuff like that, we've got to do it all right for it to work. And right now I don't think all the guys are doing all their technique and studying as hard as they need to study."

The question has been whether the CEO, Gibbs, will address this, and, apparently, he has decided to become more hands-on again. He has been preoccupied with the offense, concerned that Saunders isn't pounding the ball enough, frustrated by injuries to Portis and receiver Santana Moss and resigned to the fact that strapping Jason Campbell is his future at quarterback. But on Wednesday, he couldn't ignore the team's general malaise any longer. In his regular team meeting, he essentially stomped his feet for the first time since last season, told his players they aren't playing physical enough, that it's time to play more smash-mouth, that everybody would be evaluated from here on out. Whether he was talking about the coaches, too, who knows? Whether he will start from scratch defensively next season, who knows? But with Williams obviously unable to stir the passions of the defense, Gibbs had little choice but to butt in.

Of course, whether the problems are solved won't be clear until late December. But if they collapse again, what will the Hall of Fame coach do next? Call another meeting and ask the angry, dissenting players to raise their hands? That would be so 1980s of him. That would be a start.

Halfcan
01-19-2007, 03:45 PM
We are stuck with Solari and people bitch that an Offense scores too fast.

So when we had the #1 O and #1 Rushing O and the #1 scoring O that used to give the defense HUGE leads and force the other team to pass-HOW DID THAT HURT US AGAIN?????

Woodrow Call
01-19-2007, 03:51 PM
Al Saunders is the coach the Chiefs should have hired.

I disagree and so does every team in the NFL.

Baby Lee
01-19-2007, 03:52 PM
This is absolute bullshit!

There was a piece on ESPN.com a few months ago about how word around the league was how overrated Gregg Williams was as a defensive coordinator and it was HIM and his rocky relationship with his players that was killing their defense.

I see King Carl can't help himself when it comes to taking cheap shots at Al Saunders, but in reality Al is going to have the last laugh, just like he did when Carl decided to hire Goonther over Saunders as head coach. Goonther was a miserable failure, while Al went to the Lambs and won a Super Bowl.

Al Saunders is the coach the Chiefs should have hired.
http://www.chiefsplanet.com/BB/customavatars/avatar2256_26.gif
DV - KCChiefsfan88 has quite a technique, eh Al? Cups the balls, no slurping, dry as a bone when you finish.
AS - fuggin' Ayyy!

Fish
01-19-2007, 03:56 PM
http://www.chiefsplanet.com/BB/customavatars/avatar2256_26.gif
DV - KCChiefsfan88 has quite a technique, eh Al? Cups the balls, no slurping, dry as a bone when you finish.
AS - fuggin' Ayyy!

ROFL

Perfect......

crazycoffey
01-19-2007, 04:02 PM
Part of the problem is that the Chiefs organization should be above writing articles about past coordinators and taking shots at them in how they are performing in their new job. It is a classless thing to do and is aimed at deflecting criticism away from the current team. Do the Jets have an article this week about Dick Curl?




You don't really think that Gretz is sanctioned by the chief organization to speak for them, do you?

I know we joke about CP pulling his strings, but if you really believe it's the chief organization that is blasting Al saunders, than your are painting yourself a fool.

I liked Al, thought he might deserve a chance at OC, but I wasn't really looking forward to that here with the chiefs. I don't know about solari, the man has had one year, but I disagree that we needed to promote al saunders to HC. Herm has a certain air about him, he's a winner, he carries it and he's been blasted on the site many times in the last few weeks, but he's our HC and it was a good decision to let Al go and bring in Herm. I really believe that and this one year is not enough to change my mind.

Damn Pessimists!

DaneMcCloud
01-19-2007, 04:03 PM
Saunders was in KC in 2001. You mean the 1999 season, and that was a Martz offense. Saunders was the WR coach. They had the No 6 D, and the next year it promptly collapsed to No 31 once people figured the Rams out, and with Dv not around to demand a bit of balance and they went pass crazy...

Well, the Rams did go 10-6 that year but lost in the playoffs to the Saints. Martz "must have figured something out" because they went 14-2 and barely lost the Super Bowl in 2002.

FringeNC
01-19-2007, 04:54 PM
This is absolute bullshit!

There was a piece on ESPN.com a few months ago about how word around the league was how overrated Gregg Williams was as a defensive coordinator and it was HIM and his rocky relationship with his players that was killing their defense.

I see King Carl can't help himself when it comes to taking cheap shots at Al Saunders, but in reality Al is going to have the last laugh, just like he did when Carl decided to hire Goonther over Saunders as head coach. Goonther was a miserable failure, while Al went to the Lambs and won a Super Bowl.

Al Saunders is the coach the Chiefs should have hired.

Well something has to give. I thought Gregg Williams was about the best defensive coordinator in the league, and I thought Al Saunders was about the best OC in the league. It seems both cannot be true. Now, I completely agree that the reasoning given is BS -- the success of the Rams blows the defense "in a bind" theory.

If there is some relationship between precision offenses and bad defenses, that's interesting...but the reasons given here for the relationship are absurd. I think they are two legitimate possibilities: Precision offenses require much practice time be devoted to timing -- it's possible it's at the expense of tackling or whatever the D needs. Still not sure I buy it.

I have a wacky theory of my own: I think there are so many coaching dinosaurs in the NFL who will play tit-for-tat with ya. If you play not to lose, so will the other coach. Like the game at Denver this year. Shanahan was satisfied playing not to lose, since he knew Herm played that way. They were both willing to take it to the 4th quarter and flip a coin. Now against Martz/Saunders, coaches know they can't play that way, so they try to move the ball through the air, and it turns out they can do it pretty well.

My guess is that coaches like Martz and Saunders are hated, because they force their opposing coach to take risks, which most coaches hate to do.

FringeNC
01-19-2007, 04:55 PM
You don't really think that Gretz is sanctioned by the chief organization to speak for them, do you?

I know we joke about CP pulling his strings, but if you really believe it's the chief organization that is blasting Al saunders, than your are painting yourself a fool.



If you think Carl ISN'T that petty, you are a fool.

KCChiefsFan88
01-19-2007, 06:13 PM
http://www.chiefsplanet.com/BB/customavatars/avatar2256_26.gif
DV - KCChiefsfan88 has quite a technique, eh Al? Cups the balls, no slurping, dry as a bone when you finish.
AS - fuggin' Ayyy!


No shame in showing appreciation to the co-architect of the greatest offense this franchise has ever seen, especially when King Carl (who obviously was jealous of the credit Al Saunders received in KC) instructs his propaganda machine to attack him.

KCChiefsFan88
01-19-2007, 06:19 PM
You don't really think that Gretz is sanctioned by the chief organization to speak for them, do you?



The Chiefs have a history under Peterson of firing people who dare stray from the company line. See Bill Maas. See Tim Grunhard. Both were removed from Chiefs preseason telecasts because Peterson saw them as being too critical of the Chiefs.

Gretz is saying exactly what Peterson wants him to say. Just like that whore Eileen Weir and the sell-out Jon Rand. They are tools in Peterson's game of propaganda. If they stray from the company line, Peterson will shit-can them.

Mr. Laz
01-19-2007, 07:02 PM
You don't really think that Gretz is sanctioned by the chief organization
yes ...

if gretz wasn't saying stuff the chiefs didn't like they wouldn't have him writing on their site.

same for Rufus Dawes ... they approve his anti-fan schtick every time they let him write another article on KcChiefs.com

shaneo69
01-19-2007, 07:18 PM
Well something has to give. I thought Gregg Williams was about the best defensive coordinator in the league, and I thought Al Saunders was about the best OC in the league.

Yeah, I remember. That was pretty funny. Turns out they both suck when they don't have enough talent to work with. Kinda like Solari and Gunther.

Guru
01-19-2007, 07:28 PM
This is the most retarded thing I've ever read........our organization sure shows class eh?
Carl loves having Gretz to kiss his a$$. I can't wait for them all to be gone and start a new five year plan. Yes, I want to start over as I am tired of the band-aid solution.

FringeNC
01-19-2007, 08:10 PM
Yeah, I remember. That was pretty funny. Turns out they both suck when they don't have enough talent to work with. Kinda like Solari and Gunther.

What happened in Washington isn't really similar to what happened here. Washington had an average offense, not a high-powered offense like we did. Actually, more like our 2001 offense -- a few great games mixed in with a very ordinary offense.

There was no tragedy in DC. Neither side of the ball was special. Let them have a top 2 offense for 4 years in a row, and see if their GM and DC can make their D respectable. My guess is that they can. What happened here was a f'n tragedy. And everyone knows it and is pointing fingers. Gretz's theory that Saunders' offense tires the defense is complete shit.

How you want to allocate blame between Peterson and Gun (and Vermeil and Saunders if you actually believe they had an big impact on the D) is up to you. For what it's worth, I give them both big fat Fs.

keg in kc
01-19-2007, 10:07 PM
The problems with Saunders' offense didn't have anything to do with how quickly it scored, it had to do with bizarre untimely playcalls that resulted in game-changing turnovers and it had to do with an overemphasis of finesse over toughness which resulted in both long dry spells during games where the offense couldn't stay on the field as well as a consistent inability to hold leads late in games; they couldn't convert in key situations because they didn't have the ability to simply knock a team off the ball and gain 2 or 3 yards.

It was certainly not perfect, in other words, but I don't think anyone would question the fact that it was better in virtually every sense of the word than what we saw in 2006.

However, I will continue to postulate that it was a result of swapping Willie Roaf for Jordan Black combined with the aging of Wiegmann and Shields and the failure to produce a consistent performer at RT. The LT issue in particular is a crushing blow to the style of offense we employ, and would have been just as staggering to Saunders in my opinion.

KCChiefsFan88
01-19-2007, 10:18 PM
The problems with Saunders' offense


The problem with Al's offense was it was on the same team as a defense that was coordinated by incompetent defensive coordinators in Robinson and Goonther.

It amazes me that people are nitpicking over Al Saunders, yet they make a billion excuses for Goonther.

crazycoffey
01-19-2007, 11:24 PM
yes ...

if gretz wasn't saying stuff the chiefs didn't like they wouldn't have him writing on their site.

same for Rufus Dawes ... they approve his anti-fan schtick every time they let him write another article on KcChiefs.com

The Chiefs have a history under Peterson of firing people who dare stray from the company line. See Bill Maas. See Tim Grunhard. Both were removed from Chiefs preseason telecasts because Peterson saw them as being too critical of the Chiefs.

Gretz is saying exactly what Peterson wants him to say. Just like that whore Eileen Weir and the sell-out Jon Rand. They are tools in Peterson's game of propaganda. If they stray from the company line, Peterson will shit-can them.

If you think Carl ISN'T that petty, you are a fool.

you all three work for WPI, don't you?

tards

milkman
01-19-2007, 11:39 PM
you all three work for WPI, don't you?

tards

Keep drinking the Kool-Aide.

Deberg_1990
01-19-2007, 11:49 PM
The problems with Saunders' offense didn't have anything to do with how quickly it scored, it had to do with bizarre untimely playcalls that resulted in game-changing turnovers and it had to do with an overemphasis of finesse over toughness which resulted in both long dry spells during games where the offense couldn't stay on the field as well as a consistent inability to hold leads late in games; they couldn't convert in key situations because they didn't have the ability to simply knock a team off the ball and gain 2 or 3 yards.



Very good points. I agree. especially in 2001 and 2002.


But Saunders offense would go into funks pretty much every year, even though its hard to complain about such a high scoring offense.

Alot of the execution problems were always due to a lack of a "go to" WR.

KCChiefsFan88
01-20-2007, 12:35 AM
you all three work for WPI, don't you?

tards

Do you enjoy your life as Carl's wannabe enema?

crazycoffey
01-20-2007, 12:40 AM
Do you enjoy your life as Carl's wannabe enema?

do you enjoy your lot in life, catching for redrum69?


BTW does he have the courtesy to give you a reach around, or does he leave you hanging.

FringeNC
01-20-2007, 10:41 AM
The problems with Saunders' offense didn't have anything to do with how quickly it scored, it had to do with bizarre untimely playcalls that resulted in game-changing turnovers and it had to do with an overemphasis of finesse over toughness which resulted in both long dry spells during games where the offense couldn't stay on the field as well as a consistent inability to hold leads late in games; they couldn't convert in key situations because they didn't have the ability to simply knock a team off the ball and gain 2 or 3 yards.

It was certainly not perfect, in other words, but I don't think anyone would question the fact that it was better in virtually every sense of the word than what we saw in 2006.

However, I will continue to postulate that it was a result of swapping Willie Roaf for Jordan Black combined with the aging of Wiegmann and Shields and the failure to produce a consistent performer at RT. The LT issue in particular is a crushing blow to the style of offense we employ, and would have been just as staggering to Saunders in my opinion.

That's easy to retrospectively nit-pick the offense. I'll believe it if you can quantify how the Chiefs' offense wasn't up to snuff to other top offenses. Give me some numbers.

Bowser
01-20-2007, 10:56 AM
Good lord, how did I miss this gem?

I am more and more convinced that CP reads ChiefsPlanet, and sees all the moaning about Herm and the offense, and decides to open fire on the guy who brought success to our offense IN THE PAST.

Gretz actually had a few suprisingly good articles this year, but htis one sinks him back into the depths of douche-dom.

FAX
01-20-2007, 11:04 AM
Gretz would have been better served composing an article on whether or not, at his age, Steven Segal could defeat Bubble Boy in a cage match.

Gretz's crack whore journalism has grown tiresome. That's why he should be dunked in poo juice in front of his mother.

FAX

crazycoffey
01-20-2007, 11:43 AM
Gretz would have been better served composing an article on whether or not, at his age, Steven Segal could defeat Bubble Boy in a cage match.

Gretz's crack whore journalism has grown tiresome. That's why he should be dunked in poo juice in front of his mother.

FAX


:LOL:

NOTE TO REDRUM69; this is how you make a creative mom joke!