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Rain Man
02-03-2007, 10:44 PM
Okay, the Hall of Fame is screwed up. It's got way too many quarterbacks and way too many offensive players. If we want it to truly reflect the greatest players in the league, some changes have to be made.

Here's the deal. I looked at all of the players in the Hall of Fame who were active in 1970 or later, and analyzed their positions. Way too many quarterbacks and stuff. If we instead were to change the HoF to celebrate the best players in a manner that is proportional to the positions in the field (e.g., two guard per every center, two cornerbacks per every quarterback, etc.), we have to kick some players out of the Hall of Fame and vote some others in.

I went with only players active in 1970 or later because that way many Chiefsplanet people can speak intelligently about them. It's too hard for us to fairly comment on the Frank Gatski's and Johnny McNally's in the Hall of Fame.

So here is our task. You can discuss things here, but then I'll run a series of threads with polls to make the actual changes. In those threads, people will nominate specific players for inclusion or exclusion, and we'll vote on who should be in the "Corrected and Just Hall of Fame".

Running backs (halfbacks and fullbacks)

Larry Csonka
Gale Sayers
O.J. Simpson
Franco Harris
Earl Campbell
John Riggins
Walter Payton
Tony Dorsett
Leroy Kelly
Eric Dickerson
Marcus Allen
Barry Sanders
Thurman Thomas

Analysis: There are FOUR too many. We have to eliminate FOUR from this group.


Quarterbacks

Terry Bradshaw
Bob Griese
Dan Fouts
Joe Montana
Jim Kelly
John Elway
Dan Marino
Steve Young
Troy Aikman
Warren Moon
Bart Starr
Johnny Unitas
George Blanda
Sonny Jurgensen
Joe Namath
Fran Tarkenton
Roger Staubach
Len Dawson

Analysis: There are 13 too many. We have to eliminate 13 from this group.

Wide Receivers:

Lance Alworth
Paul Warfield
Charley Taylor
Don Maynard
Fred Biletnikoff
Steve Largent
Charlie Joiner
Lynn Swann
John Stallworth
James Lofton
Michael Irvin

Analysis: There are TWO too many. We have to eliminate 2 from this group.

Tight Ends:

Mike Ditka
John Mackey
Jackie Smith
Kellen Winslow
Ozzie Newsome
Dave Casper
Charlie Sanders

Analysis: There are TWO too many. We have to eliminate 2 from this group.

Offensive Tackles:

Forrest Gregg
Ron Mix
Art Shell
Dan Dierdorf
Anthony Muņoz
Jackie Slater
Ron Yary
Bob (Boomer) Brown
Rayfield Wright

Analysis: This is the correct number. No changes needed.

Guard:

Gene Upshaw
John Hannah
Larry Little
Tom Mack
Mike Munchak
Joe DeLamielleure
Gene Hickerson
Bruce Matthews

Analysis: There is ONE too few. We get to add one member.

Center:

Jim Otto
Jim Langer
Mike Webster
Dwight Stephenson

Analysis: There is ONE too few. We get to add one member.

Kicker:

Jan Stenerud

Analysis: There are THREE too few. We get to add 3 members.

Punter:

(None)

Analysis: There are FOUR too few. We get to add 4 members.

Safety:

Larry Wilson
Ken Houston
Paul Krause

Analysis: There are SIX too few. We get to add 6 members.

Cornerback:

Herb Adderley
Willie Brown
Mel Blount
Willie Wood
Lem Barney
Jimmy Johnson
Mel Renfro
Mike Haynes
Ronnie Lott
Roger Wehrli

Analysis: There is ONE too many. We have to eliminate 1 from this group.

Outside linebacker:

Bobby Bell
Jack Ham
Ted Hendricks
Lawrence Taylor
Dave Wilcox

Analysis: There are FOUR too few. We get to add 4 members.


Middle Linebacker:

Ray Nitschke
Dick Butkus
Willie Lanier
Jack Lambert
Mike Singletary
Nick Buoniconti
Harry Carson

Analysis: There are TWO too many. We have to eliminate 2 from this group.

Defensive End:

David (Deacon) Jones
Lee Roy Selmon
Howie Long
Jack Youngblood
Elvin Bethea
Carl Eller
Reggie White

Analysis: There are TWO too few. We get to add 2 members.

Defensive Tackle:

Bob Lilly
Merlin Olsen
Joe Greene
Alan Page
Junious (Buck) Buchanan
Randy White
Dan Hampton

Analysis: There are TWO too few. We get to add 2 members.


I'll start the individual threads soon, as soon as people have time to examine this information.

cdcox
02-03-2007, 10:56 PM
I think since it is a HO FAME that an over representation of certain glamor positions is okay. But, this can make some interesting football discussion, so I'll play enthusiastically. Might have to break things up to allow sufficient research at each position.



Larry Csonka -out
Gale Sayers - out
O.J. Simpson
Franco Harris
Earl Campbell
John Riggins - out
Walter Payton
Tony Dorsett
Leroy Kelly - out
Eric Dickerson
Marcus Allen
Barry Sanders
Thurman Thomas


Terry Bradshaw - out
Bob Griese - out
Dan Fouts - out
Joe Montana
Jim Kelly -out
John Elway
Dan Marino
Steve Young - out
Troy Aikman - out
Warren Moon - out
Bart Starr - out
Johnny Unitas
George Blanda - out
Sonny Jurgensen - out
Joe Namath -out
Fran Tarkenton - out
Roger Staubach
Len Dawson - out

QBs were painful. Time for a break.

Dark Horse
02-03-2007, 11:01 PM
We could start by booting out all Raiders and Broncos since there is an 80 percent probability that they cheated to get in there any way.

Rain Man
02-03-2007, 11:09 PM
Yeah, my goal is that this thread can contain general discussions, but that we'll then have a thread devoted to each position.

My initial thinking on those first two positions is as follows:

Rank Order (Descending)
Walter Payton - Easy #1
Barry Sanders - Barely edges out The Juice
O.J. Simpson - Dominant player in his day
Earl Campbell - Stats aren't as good as some others, but wow. Just wow.
Eric Dickerson - Dominant in his day. Really, really dominant. More of a runner than a RB, though.
Marcus Allen - One of the best all-around RBs ever.
Tony Dorsett - Next tier down from the ones above him, but very good.
Larry Csonka - Best running fullback ever.
Thurman Thomas (God, I wanted to eliminate him, but I can't.)
Gale Sayers - out. Would easily move up the list if he had played longer. One more season and I'd put him above the jerk above him.
Franco Harris - out. Good player, but not up to level of the others.
Leroy Kelly - out. I've never understood this selection.
John Riggins - out. Why is he in in the first place? Under 4 ypc.

Rain Man
02-03-2007, 11:10 PM
We could start by booting out all Raiders and Broncos since there is an 80 percent probability that they cheated to get in there any way.

I plan to do that anyway, but cover it up with a fake, insincere discussion of their objective skills.

Buck
02-03-2007, 11:18 PM
Rain Man, How can you take out 13 QBs? and who let you decide the numbers?

RJ
02-03-2007, 11:19 PM
I plan to do that anyway, but cover it up with a fake, insincere discussion of their objective skills.


Ok if it's transparently fake and insencere?

Phobia
02-03-2007, 11:20 PM
We could start by booting out all Raiders and Broncos since there is an 80 percent probability that they cheated to get in there any way.

It would be too hard to weed out all the Bronco.

cdcox
02-03-2007, 11:23 PM
Some discussion on the QBs I cut:

Terry Bradshaw - I always thought he was a bad QB. He had a big arm and was gutsy, but just not a very good passer in comparison to Fouts, Stabler, Staubach, and Tarkenton who were his contemporaries. He won, but man, what a supporting cast. An easy cut.

Bob Griese - another easy cut. Never should have been in the Hall to begin with. Passing was not a big part of the Dolphins game plan. Maybe the first systems QB, game manager ever.

Dan Fouts - very painful cut. 3 4000 yard season in a row when that yardage total was unheard of. Feared. Just ridiculous to leave him out. But tough decisions had to be made.

Jim Kelly - I don't feel that bad about cutting him. Like Bradshaw, he was surrounded by great players. Better passer, but no rings.

Steve Young - didn't compile the career stats to make it at the new HOF level. He was not Montana even though he had a better passer rating.

Troy Aikman - a better version of Bob Gresie.

Warren Moon - another tough cut, due to the whole blazing the trail for other black QBs thing. I think the HOF should include those types of accomplishments, but there is no room in Rain Man's HOF.

Bart Starr - Bob Gresie before there was a Bob Gresie. Much better, than Bob, but just a medium size cog in the Packers machine.

Johnny Unitas

George Blanda - he's a keeker. OUT!

Sonny Jurgensen - my memory is mostly of the QB controversies with Billy Kilmer, which is a minus right there. The oldtimers really get slaughtered in this poll because of comparisons with the modern stat machines. Probably second best of his era after Unitus. Out.

Joe Namath - Easy hack. His personality (advertising icon and "I guarantee it") and he doesn't even make it to begin with.

Fran Tarkenton - very tough cut. LOVED to watch him play as a kid. Think Flutie on steroids. Huge underdog that put up huge numbers. This guy deserves to be in the HOF without question.

Len Dawson - sorry Lenny. Easy cut. I tend to be especially tough on the Chiefs and thier worthy ness.

Now some comments on the guys that are in:

Joe Montana - best I've seen. No brainer.
John Elway - best physical speciman coupled with an ability to play like crap for 3 quarters and still win the game. Hate him.
Dan Marino - stat machine, can't keep him out. I'm not a big fan.
Johnny Unitas - didn't see him in his prime, but every book I read before 1980 called him the best. Has to be in.

Roger Staubach - best I saw play before Montana.

cdcox
02-03-2007, 11:26 PM
Rain Man, How can you take out 13 QBs? and who let you decide the numbers?

Rain Man and I decide on all the numbers. It was his turn.

Rain Man
02-03-2007, 11:33 PM
Okay, only five QBs get in, eh? Here's my list.

Rank (Descending Order)

In

Joe Montana - #1 in tough competition. I wouldn't want anybody else as my QB with 2 minutes left in a big game.

Johnny Unitas - He was Marino before Marino, in an era that was much less friendly to offenses.

Dan Marino - Talk about rings all you want. This guy was incredible.

Steve Young - This guy was practically unstoppable. He could pass, he could run, and may have been one of the most dominating players ever at his position.

Fran Tarkenton - Scary good quarterback who never had a lot of weapons, but produced incredible career stats.

Out

Roger Staubach - Could easily be in the #5 spot. Great quarterback who could win the important games.

Warren Moon - Could easily be in the #5 spot. If his whole career had been in the NFL, could be in the top 2 or 3.

Bart Starr - Championship QB for championship teams. He's a notch below the top 7, though.

Len Dawson - One of the best QB ratings ever, in an era that was unfriendly toward the pass.

Joe Namath - One of the first of prolific passers, and doesn't get credit for it.

John Elway - Gets knocked down several spots for dodging the draft and thinking he was more important than the sport. Above-average on the field for many years, was very productive when he had a strong running back behind him.

Terry Bradshaw - You can win a lot when your defense gives up two points a game.

Jim Kelly - Better than I give him credit for. Could be a few spots higher.

Dan Fouts - System quarterback.

Troy Aikman - Two words: What. Ever.

George Blanda - He's only in because he played for most of the 20th century.

Bob Griese - I have nothing against Bob, but I don't see how handing off to Csonka and Kiick and Morris is Hall of Fame work.

Sonny Jurgensen - I've never understood this one. Maybe he was great before I saw him play at the end of his career.

RedNeckRaider
02-03-2007, 11:34 PM
The Hall of Fame needs to be fixed, however I disagree with this plan. You are going about it like picking teams. Greatness is what is should be about not position.

Rain Man
02-03-2007, 11:36 PM
Rain Man, How can you take out 13 QBs? and who let you decide the numbers?

If QBs represent 1/24th of the positions on the field, they should represent 1/24th of the 110 HoF spots for players active since 1970, which equates to five spots.

That, and cdcox got to pick the last numerical stuff.

Rain Man
02-03-2007, 11:41 PM
It would be too hard to weed out all the Bronco.

I despise every Bronco in the Hall of Fame. Every single one of him.

cdcox
02-03-2007, 11:45 PM
Runningback commentary, by teirs:

Teir #1 The best I ever saw:

O.J. Simpson
Barry Sanders
Earl Campbell

The only 3 rb that have made me say, OH CRAP DID I JUST SEE THAT? just about every time they played over the course of multiple years.

Teir 2 Didn't know where else to stick him:

Eric Dickerson

Really dominant, but not in a jaw dropping way. I feel the same way about LT. Huge stats. But just doesn't wow me.

Teir 3, the versitile accumulators.

Walter Payton
Tony Dorsett
Marcus Allen
Thurman Thomas

These were durable guys who could run, block and catch. You could build an offense, not just a running game, around these guys. Payton was the best of the breed.

Teir 4 punishing plodders:

Franco Harris
Larry Csonka - out
John Riggins - out

Rainman chose Csonka, I chose Harris, mainly because of much better career stats. In his prime, Csonka was much harder to stop, but Harris maintained his peak for several more years. Is it better to burn out than to fade away?

Teir 5 Don't belong:

Gale Sayers - out
Leroy Kelly - out

Sayers had Barry Sanders-type unbelievable moves, but career was way too short. Leroy Kelly was a rich man's Floyd Little.

Rain Man
02-03-2007, 11:53 PM
I would pretty much exactly agree with your running back analysis, cdcox.

I think the thing that sets Payton apart a bit from his other "versatile accumulator" peer group was that (in my opinion) he was more rugged. At times, he seemed more like a hybrid fullback/halfback than a true halfback like the others.

Dickerson is an interesting case, too. When I think of Dickerson, I don't think about blocking or catching or anything other than running with the football, but he was sooooooo good at it. The funny thing is that I can't even place him physically with any of the others. He's the most unique one of the bunch in many ways.

Rain Man
02-04-2007, 12:04 AM
My Wide Receiver Initial Analysis. I think this has to be one of the weakest position rosters in the Hall of Fame.

Ranked in descending order

Don Maynard - A surprising #1. I vaguely remember this guy as a good deep threat who was productive and quick, with great career stats.

James Lofton - Others may not rate him as high, but this guy was in a separate league from the other receivers of his era. Fast as heck, great long threat, big...he was incredible.

Lance Alworth - I'm going more off reputation here since he was before my time, but I hear he was feared in his heyday.

Paul Warfield - I vaguely remember him as a little kid, and I remember that he was always the consensus #1 in the league in terms of reputation.

Michael Irvin - Good receiver, physical threat, productive.

Steve Largent - Productive and played a long time. Never scared me when the Chiefs played him, though.

Lynn Swann - Would easily move up the list with more years. Dominant player without enough career stats to be at the top of the heap.

Charley Taylor - Definitely a good player in his day, and produced a lot of catches over his career.

Fred Biletnikoff - I have no idea why he's in the Hall of Fame over Otis Taylor. I would've taken Otis over him in a heartbeat.

Out

John Stallworth - If he wasn't a Steeler, he wouldn't be in. There are several more deserving receivers out there.

Charlie Joiner - Classic example of a HoF pick I hate. Average player + plays forever = Hall of Fame? That equation shouldn't work.

RJ
02-04-2007, 12:17 AM
Leroy Kelly wasn't a big name player but a quick look at the stats tells me that he was behind only Jim Brown and Jim Taylor in rushing TD's among players from the 14 game days. He also led the league in rushing in 67 and 68.

Not saying he shouldn't be banished for these purposes, but he does compare more than favorably to other RB's from his day despite playing on some poor Browns teams. As I recall, they were pretty bad in those days.

If somebody has to defend Leroy Kelly it might as well be me.

Logical
02-04-2007, 12:23 AM
Running backs (halfbacks and fullbacks)

Goodbye
Larry Csonka
Franco Harris
John Riggins
Leroy Kelly


Quarterbacks

Goodbye
Terry Bradshaw
Bob Griese
Dan Fouts
Jim Kelly
Johnny Unitas (him or Marino this sucks)
Troy Aikman
Warren Moon
Bart Starr
George Blanda
Joe Namath
Fran Tarkenton
Roger Staubach
Len Dawson

Wide Receivers:

Goodbye
John Stallworth
Michael Irvin


Tight Ends:

Goodbye
Dave Casper
Charlie Sanders

Analysis: There are TWO too many. We have to eliminate 2 from this group.

Offensive Tackles:

No change

Guard:

Not qualified to add one but I nominate Ed Budde

Center:

Not qualified to add one


Kicker:

Hello
Nick Lowery
George Blanda (gets back in)
Pete Soyanovich (as a Dolphin)

Punter:

Hello
Sammy Baugh
Ray Guy
Jerrel Wilson
Sean Landetta


Safety:

Definitely add Johnny Robinson
5 others I would need help

Analysis: There are SIX too few. We get to add 6 members.

Cornerback:

Goodbye
Roger Wehrli (I know he just got in)

Analysis: There is ONE too many. We have to eliminate 1 from this group.

Outside linebacker:

I would move
Buonicotti
Carson
to the outside group both could play either Middle or Outside
add Derrick Thomas
then we would need one more


Middle Linebacker:

No one is actually out count Carson and Buoniconti as outside LBs.

Defensive End:

I would have trouble adding two


Defensive Tackle:

Again this is tough

cdcox
02-04-2007, 12:32 AM
Even though I'm seriously trailing in the race to be the 100th member with 10,000 posts, I'm going to combine my in/out post and my comments post for the WR position.

This position was easy to elimiate. I remember QBs. I remember RBs.
But after seeing Jerry Rice, trying to remember WR that played before him is like trying to see other stars in the day time. They are blotted out by the sun. (I wish I could write something more grandios to communicate how wonderful it was to watch him play pre-injury.)

Several of the current would be eliminated if we were 4 years down the road. Rice, Cris Carter, and Tim Brown are going to slaughter these guys. Not to mention Marvin Harrison, Terrell Owens, Issac Bruce... This position more than any other shows that you have to consider the era distribution in addition to the position distribution. Then your cuts are going to get even more painful.

Teir 1: Guys that would be in if we did this 10 years from now:

James Lofton
Steve Largent
Lance Alworth


Lofton is STILL in the top 3 in recieving yards after all these years. Largent was one of the top 10 recievers in the leage in fantasy point production in 10 out of 11 years. Alworth had seven, SEVEN, consecutive seasons as a +1000 yard reciever. Maynard had 5 seasons above

Teir 2: Superstars in todays game, but HOF????

Don Maynard
Charlie Joiner
John Stallworth
Michael Irvin

Each of these guys had multiple 1000 yard years, in an age where that was a stat that only RB dared to shoot for. For their era, yes. But I'm not going to keep any of these guys over Cris Carter. I threw Irvin in this group for lack of a better place to put him. He's a legit HOFer under the current format, but if I'm a voter in Rain Man's system, no way do I put him in knowing the crop of receivers coming down the pipe.

Teir 3: A product of their time.

Fred Biletnikoff
Paul Warfield
Charley Taylor -out (someone had to go)

None had more than one 1000 yard year. I'll make a terrible confession and say that I really admire Fred Biletnikoff. Small, not that fast, just scrappy has hell. Scared the daylights out of me back in the day. Only Raider of that era that I have a love-hate reliationship with. All the others I just hate.

Teir 4 Many players listed here:

some examples:

Otis Taylor
Henry Ellard
Art Munk


Teir 5 WTF?:

Lynn Swann - out.

He's in the Hall? You're kidding, right?

Logical
02-04-2007, 12:34 AM
...

John Elway - Gets knocked down several spots for dodging the draft and thinking he was more important than the sport. Above-average on the field for many years, was very productive when he had a strong running back behind him.
...


C'mon Rainman I understand hating the Broncos but to say Elway was only very productive when he had a strong running back is simply not true. That he only won SB's with a stong runningback, yes, but all those comeback wins are not because of strong runningbacks.

big nasty kcnut
02-04-2007, 12:40 AM
Running backs (halfbacks and fullbacks)

Larry Csonka out
Gale Sayers
O.J. Simpson
Franco Harris
Earl Campbell
John Riggins
Walter Payton
Tony Dorsett
Leroy Kelly out
Eric Dickerson out
Marcus Allen
Barry Sanders
Thurman Thomas out

Analysis: There are FOUR too many. We have to eliminate FOUR from this group.


Quarterbacks

Terry Bradshaw
Bob Griese out
Dan Fouts out
Joe Montana
Jim Kelly
John Elway
Dan Marino
Steve Young
Troy Aikman
Warren Moon out
Bart Starr
Johnny Unitas
George Blanda out
Sonny Jurgensen
Joe Namath
Fran Tarkenton
Roger Staubach
Len Dawson

Analysis: There are 13 too many. We have to eliminate 13 from this group.

Wide Receivers:

Lance Alworth
Paul Warfield
Charley Taylor out
Don Maynard
Fred Biletnikoff
Steve Largent
Charlie Joiner
Lynn Swann
John Stallworth
James Lofton
Michael Irvin out

Analysis: There are TWO too many. We have to eliminate 2 from this group.

Tight Ends:

Mike Ditka
John Mackey
Jackie Smith
Kellen Winslow
Ozzie Newsome
Dave Casper
Charlie Sanders

Analysis: There are TWO too many. We have to eliminate 2 from this group.

Offensive Tackles:

Forrest Gregg
Ron Mix
Art Shell
Dan Dierdorf
Anthony Muņoz
Jackie Slater
Ron Yary
Bob (Boomer) Brown
Rayfield Wright

Analysis: This is the correct number. No changes needed.

Guard:

Gene Upshaw
John Hannah
Larry Little
Tom Mack
Mike Munchak
Joe DeLamielleure
Gene Hickerson
Bruce Matthews

Analysis: There is ONE too few. We get to add one member.

Center:

Jim Otto
Jim Langer
Mike Webster
Dwight Stephenson

Analysis: There is ONE too few. We get to add one member.

Kicker:

Jan Stenerud
nick lowery
tom dempsey
Analysis: There are THREE too few. We get to add 3 members.

Punter:

ray guy

Analysis: There are FOUR too few. We get to add 4 members.

Safety:

Larry Wilson
Ken Houston
Paul Krause

Analysis: There are SIX too few. We get to add 6 members.

Cornerback:

Herb Adderley
Willie Brown
Mel Blount
Willie Wood
Lem Barney
Jimmy Johnson
Mel Renfro
Mike Haynes
Ronnie Lott
Roger Wehrli out

Analysis: There is ONE too many. We have to eliminate 1 from this group.

Outside linebacker:

Bobby Bell
Jack Ham
Ted Hendricks
Lawrence Taylor
Dave Wilcox
derrick thomas
andre tippet
Analysis: There are FOUR too few. We get to add 4 members.


Middle Linebacker:

Ray Nitschke
Dick Butkus
Willie Lanier
Jack Lambert
Mike Singletary
Nick Buoniconti out
Harry Carson out

Analysis: There are TWO too many. We have to eliminate 2 from this group.

Defensive End:

David (Deacon) Jones
Lee Roy Selmon
Howie Long
Jack Youngblood
Elvin Bethea
Carl Eller
Reggie White
richard dent
Analysis: There are TWO too few. We get to add 2 members.

Defensive Tackle:

Bob Lilly
Merlin Olsen
Joe Greene
Alan Page
Junious (Buck) Buchanan
Randy White
Dan Hampton

Analysis: There are TWO too few. We get to add 2 members.

I've added dt richard dent ray guy and andre tippet a few of these i don't who i would add cause i need some names that should be added.

milkman
02-04-2007, 12:53 AM
This whole process is giving me a headache.

You want to fix the HOF?

Just blow up the room that the voters meet in.

Extra Point
02-04-2007, 01:42 AM
RB's: Cut: Thurman Thomas, Earl Campbell, Eric Dickerson, O.J., Leroy Kelly. Add: Jim Brown

QBs: Keep: Bradshaw, Aikman, Unitas, Staubach, Montana

WR's: Cut Alworth, Largent, Joiner, Lofton Add: Art Monk

TE's: Cut: Kellen Winslow, Charlie Sanders

G: Add: Jerry Kramer, Packers

C: Add: Jeff Hartings, Steelers

K: Add: Mark Mosley, George Blanda, Gary Anderson

P: Add Craig Colquitt, Ray Guy, Jerrell Wilson, Sammy Baugh

S: Add: Johhny Robinson, Cliff Harris, Willie Wood, Darren Woodson, Ronnie Lott (played most of his career at FS), Donnie Shell

CB: Cut: Roger Wehrli, Ronnie Lott, Add: Everson Walls

MLBs: Cut: Nick Buonoconti, Harry Carson

OLBs: Add: Jim Lynch, Tim Harris, Chuck Howley, Andy Russell

DTs: Add: Dave Butz, L.C. Greenwood

DEs: Add: Dana Stubblefield, Charles Haley (Bad attitude, but count the rings)

I don't get the need to put all the punters and place kickers in the roster, but I played along.

Logical
02-04-2007, 01:42 AM
By the way how about we just choose a better representative for DT. That will really fix what is causing us to do this thread.

HonestChieffan
02-04-2007, 08:29 AM
The system works, it will work, no need to change it, DT will get in. To propose a change is folly.

RedNeckRaider
02-04-2007, 08:47 AM
Dickerson is an interesting case, too. When I think of Dickerson, I don't think about blocking or catching or anything other than running with the football, but he was sooooooo good at it. The funny thing is that I can't even place him physically with any of the others. He's the most unique one of the bunch in many ways.
He and Marcus Allen remind me of each other in build and running style. Both were upright when they ran. Dickerson was the better runner, Allen was more complete as in blocking, catching ect.

boogblaster
02-04-2007, 08:52 AM
The system is what it is..reality is they should put more in each year..that would let some of the just-abouts that deserve it in ....

Over-Head
02-04-2007, 08:58 AM
As long as you "suck corporate dick" you'll get in. AKA: Howie Long first year of eligibility. Yes he was a fantastic player, but come on now?
Stabler has been on the ballot for years and can't get in.

Add Jack Tatum and Ray Guy!!!

Extra Point
02-04-2007, 10:23 AM
As long as you "suck corporate dick" you'll get in. AKA: Howie Long first year of eligibility. Yes he was a fantastic player, but come on now?
Stabler has been on the ballot for years and can't get in.

Add Jack Tatum and Ray Guy!!!

What he said, but my old-school hate cuts Tatum.

C-Mac
02-04-2007, 10:42 AM
I would pretty much exactly agree with your running back analysis, cdcox.

I think the thing that sets Payton apart a bit from his other "versatile accumulator" peer group was that (in my opinion) he was more rugged. At times, he seemed more like a hybrid fullback/halfback than a true halfback like the others.

Dickerson is an interesting case, too. When I think of Dickerson, I don't think about blocking or catching or anything other than running with the football, but he was sooooooo good at it. The funny thing is that I can't even place him physically with any of the others. He's the most unique one of the bunch in many ways.

Once Dickerson left the Rams with that big Oline and went to the Colts, he was just average at best.

Simplex3
02-04-2007, 10:42 AM
Rain Man, How can you take out 13 QBs? and who let you decide the numbers?
Do NOT f**k with the RainMan when it comes to numbers. He'll jack you up.

RedNeckRaider
02-04-2007, 10:45 AM
As long as you "suck corporate dick" you'll get in. AKA: Howie Long first year of eligibility. Yes he was a fantastic player, but come on now?
Stabler has been on the ballot for years and can't get in.

Add Jack Tatum and Ray Guy!!!
Wow! like him or hate him Long is a no brain pick Hall of Famer :shake:

milkman
02-04-2007, 10:49 AM
Once Dickerson left the Rams with that big Oline and went to the Colts, he was just average at best.

Actually, he had two good seasons with the Colts, then started having injury issues that slowed him down.

Rain Man
02-04-2007, 11:18 AM
C'mon Rainman I understand hating the Broncos but to say Elway was only very productive when he had a strong running back is simply not true. That he only won SB's with a stong runningback, yes, but all those comeback wins are not because of strong runningbacks.

I'll admit that I hate Elway more than I hate most other Broncos combined (other than Romanowski), but I think there's a lot of "media legend" behind John Elway.

Elway Fact: For the first 10 years of his career, he averaged 3,021 yards per season, threw for 158 TDs and threw 157 Ints. He averaged 12.7 yards per completion and 6.96 yards per attempt. That, my friends, is pedestrian. Those are not the numbers of a Hall of Fame quarterback.

Compare his first 10 years in the league to Boomer Esiason's first ten years in the league. Is Boomer Esiason a Hall of Fame lock?

Boomer Fact: For the first 10 years of his career, he averaged 2,909 yards per season, threw for 190 TDs and threw 140 Ints. He averaged 13.3 yards per completion and 7.55 yards per attempt.

Or how about Drew Bledsoe's first ten years in the league? Is Bledsoe a Hall of Fame lock?

Bledsoe Fact: For the first 10 years of his career, he averaged 3,401 yards per season, threw for 190 TDs and threw 153 Ints. He averaged 11.6 yards per completion and 6.63 yards per attempt.

Or how about Vinny Testaverde?

Testaverde Fact: For the first 10 years of his career, he averaged 2,625 yards per season, threw for 157 TDs and threw 168 Ints. He averaged 12.9 yards per completion and 7.08 yards per attempt.

Anyone remember Brian Sipe of the Browns? He was a spot starter his first two years, which hurts his yardage, but let's look at him.

Sipe Fact: For the first 10 years of his career, he averaged 2,371 yards per season, threw for 154 TDs and threw 149 Ints. He averaged 12.2 yards per completion and 6.89 yards per attempt.

I'm trying to remember quarterbacks who basically held the starting job beginning in their rookie year, and held it for ten years. You can give me others and I'll provide their stats.



If you really want to see a Hall of Fame quarterback at work, let's add Marino to the mix.

Marino Fact: For the first 10 years of his career, he averaged 3,950 yards per season, threw for 290 TDs and threw 165 Ints. He averaged 12.6 yards per completion and 7.47 yards per attempt.

Or maybe Favre?

Favre Fact: For the first 10 years of his career, he averaged 3,470 yards per season, threw for 255 TDs and threw 157 Ints. He averaged 11.6 yards per completion and 7.03 yards per attempt.

And that's including the fact that Favre threw 5 passes his first year. If you take out that year and add his 11th year, here are the revised facts:

Favre Slightly More Relevant Fact: For Years 2-11 of his career, he averaged 3,863 yards per season, threw for 287 TDs and threw 170 Ints. He averaged 11.7 yards per completion and 7.10 yards per attempt.

A fellow named Joe Montana?

Montana Facts: For the first 10 years of his career, he averaged 2,753 yards per season, threw for 190 TDs and threw 99 Ints. He averaged 11.9 yards per completion and 7.49 yards per attempt.

Like Favre, Montana got almost no playing time his first year. (Dear god, who was starting ahead of him? Was it still Brodie?) If you go with Years 2-11, you get this:

Montana Slightly More Relevant Fact: For Years 2-11 of his career, he averaged 3,096 yards per season, threw for 215 TDs and threw 107 Ints. He averaged 12.0 yards per completion and a gaudy 7.67 yards per attempt.



The only thing that brought up Elway's stats were that he got a truly great running back behind him, and the coaching staff took the ball out of his hands. Over the last six years of Elway's career, he admittedly became quite effective.

Last Six Years of Mr. Ugly's Career: He averaged 3,543 yards per season, threw for 142 TDs and threw 69 Ints. He averaged 12.2 yards per completion and 7.30 yards per attempt.


So what do we learn from this? We learn two things:

1. Over the first ten years of his career - A FULL DECADE - Elway was not even close to being in the league of truly great quarterbacks like Marino and Favre. Not even close. In fact, he was statistically a strong match with Vinny Testaverde and Brian Sipe, aside from getting more attempts.

2. He only became productive at the end of his career, when he had a truly great running back behind him - something that real Hall of Famers like Marino, Favre, and Montana never had.

3. Elway has high career stats because he was an uncontested starter for his whole career. If Brian Sipe or Vinny Testaverde or Drew Bledsoe were to get a truly great running back behind them, they would have equal stats if you look at it objectively.

You can't argue with the numbers. Elway could not carry a team - Terrell Davis carried that team. If not for Davis, Elway would be another Vinny Testaverde.

Brock
02-04-2007, 11:24 AM
The entire premise is wrong. Defense is where for decades, second tier athletes were placed. The ratio at this point is absolutely right.

And no punter deserves to be in the HOF, ever, period.

milkman
02-04-2007, 11:33 AM
Like Favre, Montana got almost no playing time his first year. (Dear god, who was starting ahead of him? Was it still Brodie?) If you go with Years 2-11, you get this:

Steve DeBerg.

milkman
02-04-2007, 11:36 AM
You can't argue with the numbers. Elway could not carry a team

And yet he carried a relatively weak Donkey team to 3 SBs.

RedNeckRaider
02-04-2007, 11:43 AM
And yet he carried a relatively weak Donkey team to 3 SBs.
Like or hate him he is in my mind the greatest QB of alltime. Give him what Montanna had or Aikman he would have rewrote the record book. Much like Tarkington he took teams to the Superbowl that should have never made it to begin with. This about a guy I have called every dirty word known when he was still playing :)

milkman
02-04-2007, 11:45 AM
Like or hate him he is in my mind the greatest QB of alltime. Give him what Montanna had or Aikman he would have rewrote the record book. Much like Tarkington he took teams to the Superbowl that should have never made it to begin with. This about a guy I have called every dirty word known when he was still playing :)

I still can't stand the horse tooth bastard, but the fact is, he did more with less for the first 10 years of his career than any other QB.

Rain Man
02-04-2007, 01:44 PM
And yet he carried a relatively weak Donkey team to 3 SBs.

If his numbers carried the team to three Super Bowls, then so should've Testaverde's. The team around him must've been a lot better than Testaverde's teams, or Brian Sipe's teams, or Drew Bledsoe's teams, because they all produced the same numbers.

milkman
02-04-2007, 01:48 PM
If his numbers carried the team to three Super Bowls, then so should've Testaverde's. The team around him must've been a lot better than Testaverde's teams, or Brian Sipe's teams, or Drew Bledsoe's teams, because they all produced the same numbers.

As Vince Lombardi said, "There are lies, damn lies, and stats".

Elway made plays.
That's why he's a HoFer, and considered among the all time greats.

Those other guys weren't playmakers.

Rain Man
02-04-2007, 01:53 PM
As Vince Lombardi said, "There are lies, damn lies, and stats".

Elway made plays.
That's why he's a HoFer, and considered among the all time greats.

Those other guys weren't playmakers.

Bah. (Dismissive wave of hand.) He had more opportunities to make plays because his interceptions were putting his team in a hole.

cdcox
02-04-2007, 02:35 PM
Tight ends are a weak group. With Sharpe and Gonzo in the group it will improve greatly:

In:

Kellen Winslow
Mike Ditka
John Mackey
Jackie Smith
Ozzie Newsome

Out:

Dave Casper
Charlie Sanders

StcChief
02-04-2007, 02:38 PM
Tight ends are a weak group. With Sharpe and Gonzo in the group it will improve greatly:

In:

Kellen Winslow
Mike Ditka
John Mackey
Jackie Smith
Ozzie Newsome

Out:

Dave Casper
Charlie Sanders

Chalie Sanders out for sure....

In: eventually the great Gates [/sarcasm]

Ari Chi3fs
02-04-2007, 02:41 PM
Gale Sayers - out. Would easily move up the list if he had played longer. One more season and I'd put him above the jerk above him.

John Riggins - out. Why is he in in the first place? Under 4 ypc.

Why do you hate University of Kansas Hall of Fame Running Backs for?

Damn you. Damn you, I say!

DTLB58
02-04-2007, 05:03 PM
Instead of having 40 sports writers vote they should have all of the HOF members vote.

Logical
02-04-2007, 06:13 PM
...

You can't argue with the numbers. Elway could not carry a team - Terrell Davis carried that team. If not for Davis, Elway would be another Vinny Testaverde.

Terrell Davis only had 4 good seasons, his last 3 he only had about 200 yards per season. You seem to be giving him credit for 6 great seasons.

You threw out Montana's first season, what about Elways where he only played 11 games and only had 1663 yards? Or what about the fact that Elway not only did not have a great runningback but a bad offensive line most of his first 6 seasons? You seem to be pretty selective in how you are judging him.