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DaWolf
02-06-2007, 02:17 AM
I suggest we ask Peter King to respond to this...

JOE POSNANSKI COMMENTARY
GIVE HIM HIS DUE
Pro Football Hall of Fame voters’ perceptions are clouded when it comes to Derrick Thomas

MIAMI | There probably are worse ways to pick pro football hall of famers than by locking 40 wildly diverse sportswriters and broadcasters in a room and having them fight it out to the death. For instance: Having sportswriters throw darts at a dartboard with players’ names on it … that would be a worse way.

A “Wheel of Hall of Fame Fortune” game show — that would be worse.

OK, that’s all I can come up with.

Saturday afternoon, the 40-man party crew known as the Pro Football Hall of Fame selection committee batted things around and again passed on Derrick Thomas. That makes three years running, and it’s now becoming apparent that Thomas may never get selected for the Hall of Fame. This seemed as if it would be his year. The ballot was thin. The vote was in Thomas’ hometown. The time seemed right.

The group did not vote him in again, choosing instead to honor Michael Irvin, which is a whole other story. Well, the bright side there is that anyone who thinks the personal mistakes Derrick Thomas may have made in his life have something to do with the Hall of Fame can put that idea away. Michael Irvin was selected for the Hall of Fame.

Anyway. The big problem here seems to be a matter of perception. This Hall of Fame committee, for whatever reason, remains unconvinced. Some of them seem to think Derrick Thomas is a “borderline” Hall of Fame candidate. I have no idea where this idea came from — maybe his case hasn’t been presented right, or maybe committee members have spent too much time talking about his so-called weaknesses as a player, or maybe they just didn’t see him play enough because the Chiefs never reached a Super Bowl.

Maybe some of them simply slept through the 1990s.

So this needs to be written down: There is nothing borderline about Derrick Thomas’ football case. He is a slam-dunk, no-doubt, sure-as-shooting Hall of Famer. He should have gone in on the first ballot with Dan Marino and that group. He changed as many football games as any defensive player in the NFL in the 1990s. He sacked more quarterbacks, caused more fumbles, fired up more crowds, forced more bad passes and shifted more momentum than anyone else.

The idea of football is to win. The Chiefs went 110-65-1 during Derrick Thomas’ career. He was the biggest reason why they kept winning.

Look: Derrick Thomas had 126 1/2 sacks in his career before he died too young. Nobody had more in that time frame. He set the NFL record for sacks in a game with seven. He was the unquestioned leader of a Chiefs team that went to the playoffs seven times in 11 seasons (and just missed two other times). The Chiefs’ defense finished in the top half of the NFL every season but one, was in the top 10 six times and was No. 1 in the entire league twice. This guy was a dominant football player.

How dominant? He made nine Pro Bowls. Nine. In the history of the NFL, only 57 players have made nine or more Pro Bowls — and among the eligible players, only five of them are not in the Hall of Fame. No linebacker has made more than 10. Among the greatest linebackers, Dick Butkus was in eight Pro Bowls. Willie Lanier was in eight Pro Bowls. Nick Buoniconti was in eight Pro Bowls. And so on.

By the way, Michael Irvin made just five Pro Bowls, which at last check was more than his number of drug arrests, though it’s close. Thurman Thomas, another Hall of Fame choice this year, made only five Pro Bowls, too.

Oh yeah, and there has been some talk that some other pass rushers like Fred Dean, Andre Tippett and Richard Dent have created a foggy situation for Hall of Fame voters. How can you tell them apart? Well, here’s one way: Fred Dean made four Pro Bowls, Andre Tippett five and Richard Dent four. Come on. They were fine pass rushers. They were not Derrick Thomas.

Thomas was a uniquely dominating player. Every coach had to game-plan around him. Every offense had to focus on him. Every young linebacker wanted to be Derrick Thomas. And as for the knock that he was not a great “all-round” player — come on. What is an all-round football player anyway? John Elway couldn’t kick field goals. Mike Singletary couldn’t throw passes. Derrick Thomas’ job was not to cover receivers and stuff the run. His job was to get the quarterback and create havoc, and he did it with an abandon that few players in the history of the game ever matched.

And as for the idea that he was a “liability against the run,” as I heard one voter say — that’s baloney, as my father used to say. In Thomas’ 11 seasons, the Chiefs allowed more than 4 yards per rush only twice. Teams did not run the ball against the Chiefs. And then consider this: The Chiefs did not have a single other linebacker make the Pro Bowl in his career. Liability. Sheesh. Let’s just hope nobody ever again offers that stupid line.

Derrick Thomas has other credentials. He was the NFL Man of the Year. He forced 45 fumbles, recorded three safeties and scored four touchdowns. He was the player who, as much as anyone, turned Kansas City into one of the great football towns in the NFL.

But all of these are just extras. Derrick Thomas dominated professional football games. He changed professional football games. He was, post-Lawrence Taylor, the most electrifying defensive player in the NFL. I have no idea what those guys in the room said about Thomas, but Derrick Thomas is not a guy you talk about. He’s a guy you vote for without question and without hesitation. Let’s hope some people wake up.
http://www.kansascity.com/mld/kansascity/sports/football/nfl/kansas_city_chiefs/16630797.htm

Taco John
02-06-2007, 02:20 AM
Sportswriters shouldn't even have a vote. It should be left to the Players and Coaches who actually played the game. Or fine, give the sportswriters a vote to supplement the players and coaches, but then let the fans have a vote too.

The idea that guys like Dr. Z are selecting who deserves a spot in the HOF or not is a depressing thought.

FAX
02-06-2007, 02:21 AM
Nice. Very nice. It makes me a little angry, but this is the case that should be made.

Thanks for posting, Mr. DaWolf.

FAX

SPchief
02-06-2007, 02:26 AM
Great article by JoPo

Guru
02-06-2007, 02:26 AM
Sportswriters shouldn't even have a vote. It should be left to the Players and Coaches who actually played the game. Or fine, give the sportswriters a vote to supplement the players and coaches, but then let the fans have a vote too.

The idea that guys like Dr. Z are selecting who deserves a spot in the HOF or not is a depressing thought.

I have always felt that way about the writers. Never understood why the writers carry any clout over a football players career. Or any sport for that matter.

SPchief
02-06-2007, 02:27 AM
Sportswriters shouldn't even have a vote. It should be left to the Players and Coaches who actually played the game. Or fine, give the sportswriters a vote to supplement the players and coaches, but then let the fans have a vote too.

The idea that guys like Dr. Z are selecting who deserves a spot in the HOF or not is a depressing thought.



Honest opinion, should DT be in the hall?

Guru
02-06-2007, 02:34 AM
Yes

SPchief
02-06-2007, 02:38 AM
Honest opinion, should DT be in the hall?


Teej?

SPchief
02-06-2007, 03:54 AM
Honest opinion, should DT be in the hall?


Paging Taco John

Messier
02-06-2007, 04:32 AM
The “liability against the run” argument is a huge myth and in a way it seems like some sort of cop out. Deion Sanders will be a first ballot HOF'er. Will the fact that he couldn't and wouldn't tackle stop his induction? No. DT could and did stop the run. It's just that job one for him was get to the QB, if along the way he saw the QB hand off he'd go for the RB. I wonder what his tackle for loss numbers are? I bet they're high.

Direckshun
02-06-2007, 04:43 AM
At this point we'll be lucky if Will Shields or Tony G find a way to get in.

Mecca
02-06-2007, 05:41 AM
What's hurting DT is simple...the Chiefs never played in a bowl.....he played in small market KC, and for basically every year of his career the Chiefs took backseat to teams like Buffalo.

Good players from great teams get in before great players from good teams. That's is how the NFL HOF works. The only way you get in without winning or being on a great team is if your retire with a bunch of records.

kcfanXIII
02-06-2007, 05:44 AM
bigger shame, buck o'neil, or derrick thomas?

Guru
02-06-2007, 05:46 AM
What's hurting DT is simple...the Chiefs never played in a bowl.....he played in small market KC, and for basically every year of his career the Chiefs took backseat to teams like Buffalo.

Good players from great teams get in before great players from good teams. That's is how the NFL HOF works. The only way you get in without winning or being on a great team is if your retire with a bunch of records.

AKA Dan Marino. I am all for him getting taken out of the HOF for his lack of a ring.

Mecca
02-06-2007, 07:12 AM
AKA Dan Marino. I am all for him getting taken out of the HOF for his lack of a ring.

If you wanna look at how the NFL HOF works and how ludicrious it is, look no further than the ridiculous amount of 70's Steelers players in there....they have so many I swear there's a hot dog vender on there from that era.

the Talking Can
02-06-2007, 07:12 AM
"He was, post-Lawrence Taylor, the most electrifying defensive player in the NFL. "

BINGO


anyone who claims that Irvin is a better football player than DT IS A ****ING MORAN.....good god this is retarded

DT was one of a kind.

the Talking Can
02-06-2007, 07:14 AM
Good players from great teams get in before great players from good teams.


rep

that's why Irvin is in and DT is out....a sick joke

StcChief
02-06-2007, 08:08 AM
DT will get in....likely just before his eligibility runs out.

So does JoPo get the vote or present DT?

BigRedChief
02-06-2007, 08:19 AM
bigger shame, buck o'neil, or derrick thomas?
Buck O'neil shouldn't be in the hall of fame at all. According to the baseball rules for the HOF off the field activities don't count. Buck wasn't a HOF player on the field. But that being said I still think he belongs in the HOF because of what he did for the game. Fuk the rules. Put him in.

Chiefnj
02-06-2007, 08:24 AM
Here is the DT Hall of Fame media packet.

Your thoughts, comments, suggestions??

http://www.kcchiefs.com/media/misc/thomas_hall_of_fame_packet.pdf

Lzen
02-06-2007, 08:30 AM
I think JoPo should be the one making DT's case to the voters instead of Gretz. ;)

BigRedChief
02-06-2007, 08:35 AM
I think JoPo should be the one making DT's case to the voters instead of Gretz. ;)
You never know if their is a backlash from Gretz making the presentation. That have to know he's a tool of the Chiefs marketing department.

ROYC75
02-06-2007, 08:47 AM
I feel it's more the bias media than Gretz.........

StcChief
02-06-2007, 08:53 AM
Problem their likely aren't really any guidelines....

if it's his Stats, he would be in already.

Too many fuzzy intangeables thing to stop him.

Simplex3
02-06-2007, 08:53 AM
Sportswriters shouldn't even have a vote. It should be left to the Players and Coaches who actually played the game. Or fine, give the sportswriters a vote to supplement the players and coaches, but then let the fans have a vote too.

The idea that guys like Dr. Z are selecting who deserves a spot in the HOF or not is a depressing thought.
We can certainly agree on that.

I'd make it a vote of the surviving past players and coaches, period. The fans and the media are going to screw it up every time.

DTLB58
02-06-2007, 08:54 AM
Very good article

Great stat: 110-65-1 During the DT era!

Messier
02-06-2007, 09:13 AM
You never know if their is a backlash from Gretz making the presentation. That have to know he's a tool of the Chiefs marketing department.


All teams have a Gretz. No one is saying, oh that's just Carl Petersons flunky, forget him. All teams have press guys getting paid by the team, and some of them I'm sure make the case for HOF players.

Easy 6
02-06-2007, 09:41 AM
Once again, Joe proves he's one of the best in the biz.

DT beats LT in more categories than not.

Sacks per game - more

Forced Fumbles - more

Fumble Recoveries - more

TD's - more

Safeties - more

If a guy can take that many categories away from LT, he is SURELY a HOFer.

Frazod
02-06-2007, 09:43 AM
Sportswriters shouldn't even have a vote. It should be left to the Players and Coaches who actually played the game. Or fine, give the sportswriters a vote to supplement the players and coaches, but then let the fans have a vote too.

The idea that guys like Dr. Z are selecting who deserves a spot in the HOF or not is a depressing thought.

Agreed. Of course, Dr. Z getting a vote doesn't bother me nearly as much as that asshat King getting a vote. That's just wrong.

Brock
02-06-2007, 09:48 AM
Dr. Z actually has endorsed Derrick Thomas as HOF worthy. If you didn't play for the Jets, Giants, or Patriots, King doesn't care about you.

DaKCMan AP
02-06-2007, 10:00 AM
Once again, Joe proves he's one of the best in the biz.

DT beats LT in more categories than not.

Sacks per game - more



This one's actually a myth. LT had 9.5 sacks his rookie season which was the year before sacks were an official record. Therefore, LT really had 0.77 sacks per game. If you don't count the 9.5 you should at least remove the games from that season from his total games played when calculating the statistic, and it's higher than DT's then as well.

Easy 6
02-06-2007, 10:04 AM
This one's actually a myth. LT had 9.5 sacks his rookie season which was the year before sacks were an official record. Therefore, LT really had 0.77 sacks per game. If you don't count the 9.5 you should at least remove the games from that season from his total games played when calculating the statistic, and it's higher than DT's then as well.


Guess i cant argue that one, but still...

Sure-Oz
02-06-2007, 10:43 AM
DT was a dominant player of his era, no excuse why he wasn't put in this year.

MVChiefFan
02-06-2007, 11:35 AM
Bottom line - I remember the game against the Raiders when we had them pinned back at their own endzone. DT raises his hands and calls for the safety - THEN GETS THE SAFETY - this, in my opinion, is like calling your shot in baseball, it's unbelievable. He did these kinds of things all the time, when he was on the field our defense believed they could stop anybody, we haven't had that mentality since. He was a game changer.

ChiefsOne
02-06-2007, 12:02 PM
Great article by Joe, as always.

These bozos not voting DT in, lessens credibility of the HOF.

big nasty kcnut
02-06-2007, 12:57 PM
bigger shame, buck o'neil, or derrick thomas both cause in many way they represent the best in thier sport.

Halfcan
02-06-2007, 12:59 PM
Great article by JoPo

He should be presenting!! Yep I have always liked Joe-he is a helluva writer and knows his shit about DT.

I could not have said it better. To say DT was a "Liability" in any shape or form has to be the dumbest fuggin thing I have ever heard. I would like to kick the dumbf#ck who said that, right in the nuts. :banghead:

InChiefsHell
02-06-2007, 01:31 PM
It's an anti-Midwest bias. He'll get in, but it won't be for many years.

Anyong Bluth
02-06-2007, 02:11 PM
Actually, every player usually has a representative to present the case for any player being considered. Gretz has a vote and has been the one that has been making the case for DT when voting comes up. I don't think JoPa has a vote, but I'm not all together sure.

What hasn't been mentioned and was a real big issue was the fact that in one of the prior years of DT's case being presented, one of the other voters, King, if I remember the story correctly, actually stood up and presented a case in the negative against DT. This is apparently not really the procedure that is followed when they meet to decide, and Gretz and a few other voting members were supremely pissed about this happening.

I'll look to see if I can find it, but it created quite the background sh!t-stir.

Someone ask John Elway if DT should be worthy of the hall. I'm pretty sure he'd know how effect and gameplanning went into making sure DT didn't come off the edge clean and forcibly remove his spinal column and the ball simultaneously!

The DT can't stop the run Bullshlt started cropping up when teams would look to take advantage of him coming up field around the tackle and then using that gap to run off. No different than any other team does with any other DE that speed rushes from the outside. They do it to Freeney et al. Hell, they do it to Jared Allen. Its not like Derrick was a poor tackler.

Anyong Bluth
02-06-2007, 02:23 PM
Gist of the story here. You can read it one of 2 ways, to me it sounds like Gretz meant to debunk the myth and Dr.Z already had his opinion decided. When you have testimonials from around the NFL to address it, it doesn't seem to me you're highlighting a weakness by building a case in the contrary?

Decide for yourself.
I say Dr.Z is the resident OB-GYN of the HOF voters.


Gretz says Hall of Fame presentation critics have no clue

JEFFREY FLANAGAN


KCFX's Bob Gretz took a couple of days off after a busy weekend that included the Pro Football Hall of Fame vote on Saturday and the Super Bowl on Sunday.

Now that he's back in town, he's firing back at his critics.

First up is Sports Illustrated's Paul Zimmerman, who attacked Gretz's presentation on Derrick Thomas to the Hall of Fame voters and basically suggested that Gretz blew Thomas' chances of gaining entry. Gretz told me Wednesday that he stands by that presentation and that Zimmerman broke the most revered rule among Hall of Fame voters.

“The one thing we're told, the one rule that is stressed over and over and over,” Gretz said, “is that what is said in that room stays in that room. Certainly you can generalize your comments about what goes on in there, but you never attach names.

“I find it interesting that he's the one person who has emphasized that rule to everyone else over the years, yet he would break that rule himself.”

Gretz also responded to those in the Kansas City media who have piled on the criticism, as well as anyone in the Chiefs' front office who may have done so privately.

“If anyone out at Arrowhead has something they want to say to me,” Gretz said, “they know how to reach me. They certainly haven't hesitated in the past.

“As for some of the people (in the Kansas City media) who've said some things, I guess I'm not surprised. You consider the source in those individual cases.”

The controversy started after Gretz, Kansas City's Hall of Fame voting representative, made his presentation of Thomas on Saturday to the 38 other voters. Thomas subsequently did not receive enough votes to make the Hall.

Zimmerman, also a Hall of Fame voter, then wrote that Gretz made the mistake of mentioning that some people questioned Thomas' skills as an all-round linebacker. “Once that was in the voter's mind,” Zimmerman wrote, “that (ended) Thomas' chances.”

“What Zimmerman doesn't get is that basically my entire presentation was based on debunking the myth that Derrick wasn't an all-round linebacker,” Gretz said. “I rattled off testimonials from Marv Levy and Bill Cowher and Marty Schottenheimer and Dan Reeves and Jim Kelly.

“In fact, since Zimmerman wrote what he wrote, I've had three phone messages from other voters, and I won't reveal their names, who've said that the presentation is what changed their minds to go ahead and vote for Derrick.

“What's clear to me, if you've ever read anything (by Zimmerman), is that he's the one who had his mind made up not to vote for Derrick before we even started.”

Brock
02-06-2007, 02:25 PM
This is what Peter King said about him last year.


Peter King of Sports Illustrated believes he'll vote for Thomas.


“I am leaning toward voting for him,” King said. “It's not final, but it's likely. I think Thomas and Bruce Smith were the best pure pass rushers of the 1990s. Thomas wasn't invincible on the field. I once saw Jacksonville's Tony Boselli shut him out, but he was so impactful in how teams had to prepare and account for him.


“I've always thought of him as the poor man's Lawrence Taylor, which isn't meant as an insult. It's an honor. He's the closest thing to Taylor that I've seen.”.

Chiefnj
02-06-2007, 02:53 PM
It's going to be tough for DT to get in. He has 6 big strikes against him:

1. He played defense. If you are a defensive player or OL you are walking into the voting with one strike against you. Voters love QB's and WR's.

2. He died before he could pad his stats. People looks at overall numbers. Thomas missed out on being able to pad his stats like Bruce Smith did. Strike 2.

3. He isn't around to hob-nob. Irvin is on television. He sees and meets the national writers that will vote for him. He's a person as opposed to a stat sheet. Does anyone think 70% of those writers ever met DT and got to know him? Strike 3.

4. No Super Bowl appearance. Strike 4.

5. Not a large amount of postseason success. Strike 5.

6. Small market. Strike 6.

FAX
02-06-2007, 03:03 PM
Total dufus making HOF presentation argument.

Strike 7.

FAX

OnTheWarpath58
02-06-2007, 04:01 PM
What's hurting DT is simple...the Chiefs never played in a bowl.....he played in small market KC, and for basically every year of his career the Chiefs took backseat to teams like Buffalo.

Good players from great teams get in before great players from good teams. That's is how the NFL HOF works. The only way you get in without winning or being on a great team is if your retire with a bunch of records.

You mean like Roger Wehrli?

:rolleyes:

Deberg_1990
02-06-2007, 07:57 PM
Well said JoPo...well said.....like someone mentioned earlier, it makes me sick that these media turds like Dr Z and Peter King hold so much clout when it comes to the HoF. Unreal....

As i said yesterday, i dont think they are intentionally biased, but they are biased due to the fact they just never saw DT play enough outside of the "big games"


I also do beleive Irvin definately deserves to be there. He was a key part of that team and always made big plays and 1st downs when it mattered most. Just like DT, if you cant see that Irvin is deserving, your just clueless.....

Tribal Warfare
02-06-2007, 08:17 PM
I suggest we ask Peter King to respond to this...

http://www.kansascity.com/mld/kansascity/sports/football/nfl/kansas_city_chiefs/16630797.htm



http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/2007/writers/peter_king/01/30/bears/1.html


fire away

DJJasonp
02-06-2007, 08:19 PM
Well said JoPo...well said.....like someone mentioned earlier, it makes me sick that these media turds like Dr Z and Peter King hold so much clout when it comes to the HoF. Unreal....

As i said yesterday, i dont think they are intentionally biased, but they are biased due to the fact they just never saw DT play enough outside of the "big games"


I also do beleive Irvin definately deserves to be there. He was a key part of that team and always made big plays and 1st downs when it mattered most. Just like DT, if you cant see that Irvin is deserving, your just clueless.....

I'm not so sure I agree with all of this...

First off, Troy Aikman, a great offensive line, and Emmit Smith made Michael Irvin better (not the other way around).

DT made:

Neil Smith a pro-bowler
Dale Carter a pro-bowler
James Hasty a pro-bowler

etc etc.

The point I'm making is that DT made everyone else around him better....the same cannot be said for Irvin....if Michael Irvin's numbers were amassed entirely as a member of the Arizona Cardinals....Irvin doesnt work for ESPN....and Irvin doesnt make the HOF.

Deberg_1990
02-06-2007, 08:23 PM
The point I'm making is that DT made everyone else around him better....the same cannot be said for Irvin....if Michael Irvin's numbers were amassed entirely as a member of the Arizona Cardinals....Irvin doesnt work for ESPN....and Irvin doesnt make the HOF.

You could debate "what ifs" for weeks on end.......

Sometimes i think people do too much of this to be honest..

Irvin, DT's and Monks stats speak for themselves. The voters are either over-analyzing or they really are clueless or misinformed.

Ebolapox
02-06-2007, 08:53 PM
You mean like Roger Wehrli?

:rolleyes:

and it took him HOW LONG to get into the HOF?

OnTheWarpath58
02-06-2007, 08:58 PM
and it took him HOW LONG to get into the HOF?


But he's in. According to some, DT never will because he didn't play in a SB or in a "big" market.

Halfcan
02-06-2007, 10:51 PM
Dr Z is a worthless old c#cksmoker-someone should put that old dog out of our misery.

Ebolapox
02-06-2007, 10:57 PM
But he's in. According to some, DT never will because he didn't play in a SB or in a "big" market.

oh, I agree with you... I still think that, given an off year and probably 30 years in the future, guys like TD and priest will make it (if the veteran's committee is still alive and kicking)... the travesty with DT's possible enshrinement is he should have been a first or second ballot guy, not an also-ran who hardly nobody remembers (roger wierhli) that took forever to get into the hall

ChiefFan31
02-07-2007, 02:01 AM
That is a good article by JoPo.

And I too am not so sure how I feel about a group of sportswriters voting, and more importantly, controlling who is elected into the Hall and who is not.

It should be a combo. DT needs to get in soon...

Direckshun
02-07-2007, 07:15 AM
I'm not so sure I agree with all of this...

First off, Troy Aikman, a great offensive line, and Emmit Smith made Michael Irvin better (not the other way around).

DT made:

Neil Smith a pro-bowler
Dale Carter a pro-bowler
James Hasty a pro-bowler

etc etc.

The point I'm making is that DT made everyone else around him better....the same cannot be said for Irvin....if Michael Irvin's numbers were amassed entirely as a member of the Arizona Cardinals....Irvin doesnt work for ESPN....and Irvin doesnt make the HOF.

Direckshun
02-07-2007, 07:16 AM
Dr Z is a worthless old c#cksmoker-someone should put that old dog out of our misery.