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View Full Version : Rand defends Gretz; rips JoPo's article


shaneo69
02-09-2007, 11:13 AM
RAND: Sympathy for the voters
Feb 08, 2007, 4:24:41 AM by Jonathan Rand

Iím never sure whether to be amused or disgusted by the criticism directed at Hall of Fame voters in any sport whenever a local favorite falls short of induction.

If all the fans and media critics in every city could get all their favorites enshrined, every Hall of Fame would have so many members as to render itself meaningless. If you elect 1,000 players, what youíd have is a gigantic card show, not a Hall of Fame.

Certainly, anybody has the right to question a selection or omission for any Hall of Fame. But why does the criticism have to become personal and even slanderous?

When our own Buck OíNeill was passed over for Cooperstown by a special Negro Leagues committee, we read about some never-substantiated personal grudge that supposedly derailed his chances.

Now that former Chiefs linebacker Derrick Thomas has fallen short of the Pro Football Hall of Fame for the third time, a local columnist belittles the election committee as a ď40-man party crew,Ē as if thereís something reckless or inebriated about its decision making. And, actually, there are two women on the committee now.

This is reminiscent of Lawrence Taylor. The former Giants linebacker, convinced he might be denied election because of a disgraceful series of drug arrests, claimed the electors were hypocrites because most, he said, were drunks chasing little girls on Miami Beach. Because the Pro Football Hall of Fame takes personal behavior off the table, Taylor was a first-ballot inductee in 1999.

This is some party. As a former Hall of Fame elector, I can assure you that serving on that committee is an honor. Itís also a pain in the butt. You spend the Saturday before the Super Bowl, your only free day of the week, cooped up in a hotel meeting room listening to presentations and discussions for all finalists, which numbered 17 this year.

Personally, I would rather walk barefoot on the ice in my driveway than listen to a one-hour discussion over whether former Commissioner Paul Tagliabue belongs in the Hall of Fame. Itís beyond me why you would enshrine an executive because he did for the league ó albeit very well ó exactly what he was hired to do.

The vast majority of the electors have watched pro football for decades, diligently prepare their homework and care passionately about voting for the right people.

A case for a candidate that might seem overpowering to the average fan may be badly flawed in the eyes of voters who know a sport inside and out. Once youíre caught with gaping holes in your argument, your candidate is finished. If Kansas City representative Bob Gretz canít make a convincing case for Thomas or any other candidate, nobody can.

The decisions are difficult because youíre often trying to distinguish between truly excellent football players and the all-time greats. This is the border Thomas keeps trying to cross.

Some votes are philosophical. How can you exclude Ray Guy, indisputably the greatest punter of all time? The prevailing sentiment is that a guy who trots in and kicks the ball six times a game and seldom gets his uniform dirty is not a Hall of Famer.

The seamheads who vote for the Baseball Hall of Fame fancy themselves the best informed and most discriminating voters for any Hall, and maybe they are. But they absorb plenty of cheap shots, too.

There was a lengthy Sunday opinion story in the New York Times a few years ago claiming that former Boston Red Sox outfielder Jim Rice keeps getting excluded because of his contentious relationship with reporters. (My few encounters with him were fine.) Nowhere was it mentioned that pitcher Steve Carlton, possibly the most media-hostile star in the history of baseball, was elected to Cooperstown on the first ballot.

Hall of Fame electors must have thick skins, though I must admit even I became offended once. An NFL ex-star once approached me and said heíd been told that he wasnít in the Hall of Fame because I didnít like him. He added that he couldnít understand this because weíd gotten along so well during his playing days.

I never knew the man during his playing days. But you know what? He made almost as much sense as most of the people who rip Hall of Fame voters.

The opinions offered in this column do not necessarily reflect those of Carl Peterson.

http://www.kcchiefs.com/news/2007/02/08/rand_sympathy_for_the_voters/

htismaqe
02-09-2007, 11:18 AM
Several of the voters defended Gretz too. Everybody involved said he did a fine job. Derrick Thomas not getting in has NOTHING to do with Bob Gretz.

shaneo69
02-09-2007, 11:20 AM
If Kansas City representative Bob Gretz canít make a convincing case for Thomas or any other candidate, nobody can.


BS. Peter King came out and admitted that Wehrli and all St. Louis Cardinal fans should thank Bernie Miklasz for getting RW into the HOF.

Miklasz did a great job; Gretz did not. Peter puffer King brings up DT's supposedly one-dimensional play. As Dr. Z said back in 2005, the voters weren't thinking about him being one dimensional until dumbass Gretz brought it up.

tk13
02-09-2007, 11:20 AM
I understand his point, but the problem is, he's just flat wrong. No you can't elect everybody to the Hall of Fame, but DT belongs in there. None of those other examples matter, what Jim Rice or Ray Guy or anybody else does has zero bearing on whether DT deserves to get in. Nowhere in the article does he actually say why DT doesn't deserve to get in. Because he does.

Hydrae
02-09-2007, 11:21 AM
Seamheads. ROFL

htismaqe
02-09-2007, 11:22 AM
BS. Peter King came out and admitted that Wehrli and all St. Louis Cardinal fans should thank Bernie Miklasz for getting RW into the HOF.

Miklasz did a great job; Gretz did not. Peter puffer King brings up DT's supposedly one-dimensional play. As Dr. Z said back in 2005, the voters weren't thinking about him being one dimensional until dumbass Gretz brought it up.

I heard Peter King tell Soren Petro on WHB, and I QUOTE:

"Bob Gretz did a fine job."

So go ahead and whine some more.

tk13
02-09-2007, 11:25 AM
A case for a candidate that might seem overpowering to the average fan may be badly flawed in the eyes of voters who know a sport inside and out. Once youíre caught with gaping holes in your argument, your candidate is finished. If Kansas City representative Bob Gretz canít make a convincing case for Thomas or any other candidate, nobody can.

I guess he does kind of address that here, although I wonder what he's referring to. And of course he takes a shot at the "average fan" in the process.

Phobia
02-09-2007, 11:29 AM
I can hardly believe Rand would defend Gretz. So, where is Rand's paycheck coming from these days?

shaneo69
02-09-2007, 11:42 AM
I can hardly believe Rand would defend Gretz. So, where is Rand's paycheck coming from these days?

They both work for Carl. What did you expect?

Count Zarth
02-09-2007, 11:42 AM
So, where is Rand's paycheck coming from these days?

I know where it's not coming from.

Eric
02-09-2007, 11:46 AM
The power of voting for the hall needs to be more balanced with Explayers making some votes.

shaneo69
02-09-2007, 11:47 AM
I guess he does kind of address that here, although I wonder what he's referring to. And of course he takes a shot at the "average fan" in the process.

There are no "gaping holes" in the argument for Derrick Thomas' enshrinement. Except for the one that Gretz invented himself and brought up in 2005 about him supposedly being one-dimensional.

Thomas was a better player than Will Shields or Tony Gonzalez, yet those guys will probably be 1st ballot guys, unless Gretz ruins their chances too.

Count Zarth
02-09-2007, 11:50 AM
The power of voting for the hall needs to be more balanced with Explayers making some votes.

Absolutely not. Then you're going to have people getting votes just because someone on the committee played for the same team.

shaneo69
02-09-2007, 11:50 AM
I heard Peter King tell Soren Petro on WHB, and I QUOTE:

"Bob Gretz did a fine job."


Fine - mediocre, okay, average, adequate.

Just like the Chiefs entire organization.

Chiefnj
02-09-2007, 11:56 AM
Rand used to be on the committee? Does Rand strike anybody as being extremely football knowledgeable?

Rand also comes off as a complete tool -

"Itís also a pain in the butt. You spend the Saturday before the Super Bowl, your only free day of the week, cooped up in a hotel meeting room listening to presentations and discussions for all finalists, which numbered 17 this year."

I'm so sorry for the big baby that he has to spend 1 day in the host Super Bowl city for 8 hours listening to people debate about HOF finalists. The ****ing horror that the poor guy had to endure. They probably ran short on poppy seed bagels one year and he had to have a plain bagel before being paid to head off and party the rest of the weekend away and watch the Super Bowl.

Count Zarth
02-09-2007, 11:58 AM
What an ungrateful SOB. Any fan would be honored to be voting on HOF induction.

shaneo69
02-09-2007, 12:05 PM
What an ungrateful SOB. Any fan would be honored to be voting on HOF induction.

Yeah, but the average frozen caveman lawyer football fan can't comprehend the magnitude of what it takes to vote for football HOF candidates.

grandllama
02-09-2007, 12:06 PM
Several of the voters defended Gretz too. Everybody involved said he did a fine job. Derrick Thomas not getting in has NOTHING to do with Bob Gretz.

That may be true, but let's let JoPo have a stab at it next year.

Ozarks-Chiefs-Fan
02-09-2007, 12:24 PM
BS. Peter King came out and admitted that Wehrli and all St. Louis Cardinal fans should thank Bernie Miklasz for getting RW into the HOF.

Miklasz did a great job; Gretz did not. Peter puffer King brings up DT's supposedly one-dimensional play. As Dr. Z said back in 2005, the voters weren't thinking about him being one dimensional until dumbass Gretz brought it up.

That's hilarious if you think it's Bob Gretz's fault that DT didn't make the hall of fame.

Chiefnj
02-09-2007, 12:47 PM
That may be true, but let's let JoPo have a stab at it next year.

Can't Gosselin do it? He seems to be respected nationally.

htismaqe
02-09-2007, 01:05 PM
Can't Gosselin do it? He seems to be respected nationally.

Gosselin held Bob Gretz' post with the Chiefs at one time, but that was before Derrick Thomas.

Baby Lee
02-09-2007, 01:06 PM
If all the fans and media critics in every city could get all their favorites enshrined, every Hall of Fame would have so many members as to render itself meaningless. If you elect 1,000 players, what youíd have is a gigantic card show, not a Hall of Fame.
BS, there are only two players I've watched [first person] on 'my favorite' teams that I felt HAD to be in the HoF, George Brett and Derrick Thomas.

Will and Tony may in the future be 1st balloters, but I haven't yet been convinced they are more deserving.

htismaqe
02-09-2007, 01:06 PM
Fine - mediocre, okay, average, adequate.

Just like the Chiefs entire organization.

Petro flat-out asked him if Gretz was the cause. King dismissed it as absurd, as do most rational, clear-thinking people.

Chiefnj
02-09-2007, 01:09 PM
Gosselin held Bob Gretz' post with the Chiefs at one time, but that was before Derrick Thomas.

Does the presenter have to be from the city the player played in, or can any committee member do it? I just don't believe Gretz has national recognition.

htismaqe
02-09-2007, 01:11 PM
Does the presenter have to be from the city the player played in, or can any committee member do it? I just don't believe Gretz has national recognition.

No idea.

grandllama
02-09-2007, 01:12 PM
That's hilarious if you think it's Bob Gretz's fault that DT didn't make the hall of fame.

I don't necessarily think it's Gretz's fault... maybe his approach. I think there needs to be more passion involved, and although I respect the hell out of Gretz for calling 'em as he sees 'em, but maybe that ain't the right approach in this situation. I can't see Gretz being as impassioned as JoPo or several other local media types.

htismaqe
02-09-2007, 01:13 PM
I don't necessarily think it's Gretz's fault... maybe his approach. I think there needs to be more passion involved, and although I respect the hell out of Gretz for calling 'em as he sees 'em, but maybe that ain't the right approach in this situation. I can't see Gretz being as impassioned as JoPo or several other local media types.

The other members of the voting committee don't respect Derrick Thomas. Period, end of story. Bob Gretz has zero bearing on the situation.

grandllama
02-09-2007, 01:14 PM
Petro flat-out asked him if Gretz was the cause. King dismissed it as absurd, as do most rational, clear-thinking people.

I've been awol during most of this discussion... am I to take (without being a direct slam on you) that most 'rational, clear-thinking' people don't feel DT should be in the hall?

htismaqe
02-09-2007, 01:15 PM
I've been awol during most of this discussion... am I to take (without being a direct slam on you) that most 'rational, clear-thinking' people don't feel DT should be in the hall?

Not at all.

But they certainly don't blame Bob Gretz for it either.

grandllama
02-09-2007, 01:15 PM
The other members of the voting committee don't respect Derrick Thomas. Period, end of story. Bob Gretz has zero bearing on the situation.

I've read Gretz' speech in the past. It makes a very clear case for DT, but lacks passion. It is everything I respect in Gretz as a journalist, but everything I dislike when it comes to persuasive arguments.

If people don't respect DT, you've got to persuade them. Persuasion is not in Gretz's repertoire.

htismaqe
02-09-2007, 01:17 PM
I've read Gretz' speech in the past. It makes a very clear case for DT, but lacks passion. It is everything I respect in Gretz as a journalist, but everything I dislike when it comes to persuasive arguments.

If people don't respect DT, you've got to persuade them. Persuasion is not in Gretz's repertoire.

The HoF voters obviously don't have their shit together, otherwise Michael Irvin wouldn't be in the HoF. Or maybe that's Bob Gretz' fault too?

grandllama
02-09-2007, 01:18 PM
Not at all.

But they certainly don't blame Bob Gretz for it either.

I don't want it to seem like I'm slamming Gretz, but the stats prove that DT should be in the Hall, however Gretz is not getting that point across.

We've went from (and I agree) "He's not a first balloter" to "I doubt he ever makes it" (from some media sources)

That is not right and indicates a change in presentation is required.

grandllama
02-09-2007, 01:19 PM
The HoF voters obviously don't have their shit together, otherwise Michael Irvin wouldn't be in the HoF. Or maybe that's Bob Gretz' fault too?

Irvin obviously had somebody impassioned present his case. Again, I'm not slamming Gretz... unlike some on this board, I really like his journalistic style. BUT... I think somethings in his presentation may need tweaking.

htismaqe
02-09-2007, 01:20 PM
I don't want it to seem like I'm slamming Gretz, but the stats prove that DT should be in the Hall, however Gretz is not getting that point across.

We've went from (and I agree) "He's not a first balloter" to "I doubt he ever makes it" (from some media sources)

That is not right and indicates a change in presentation is required.

And when they change presenters and DT STILL doesn't get in? Who's the scapegoat then?

Derrick Thomas was a KC Chief, on a team that consistently choked in big games and never made a Super Bowl. Making the HoF is an uphill battle, with or without Bob Gretz.

grandllama
02-09-2007, 01:32 PM
And when they change presenters and DT STILL doesn't get in? Who's the scapegoat then?

Derrick Thomas was a KC Chief, on a team that consistently choked in big games and never made a Super Bowl. Making the HoF is an uphill battle, with or without Bob Gretz.

I don't know what you do... all I am saying is that Gretz has tried the best he knows how... what is it going to hurt to change up the presentation?

htismaqe
02-09-2007, 01:34 PM
I don't know what you do... all I am saying is that Gretz has tried the best he knows how... what is it going to hurt to change up the presentation?

I don't have a problem with replacing Gretz.

I have a problem with singling out Gretz as the reason DT isn't in the Hall.

grandllama
02-09-2007, 01:39 PM
I don't have a problem with replacing Gretz.

I have a problem with singling out Gretz as the reason DT isn't in the Hall.

I tried to make it clear I wasn't blaming Gretz, I am blaming the approach. I do agree that it is going to be an uphill battle no matter who presents and unless Will comes back this year and we win the Super Bowl we will be having the same argument down the road about Will & Tony.

htismaqe
02-09-2007, 01:48 PM
I tried to make it clear I wasn't blaming Gretz, I am blaming the approach. I do agree that it is going to be an uphill battle no matter who presents and unless Will comes back this year and we win the Super Bowl we will be having the same argument down the road about Will & Tony.

Will and Tony won't have nearly the trouble. They're offensive players. Offensive players get in at a nearly 3:1 rate over defensive players.

Halfcan
02-09-2007, 01:59 PM
The point is Gretz had his shot-give it to someone that can do a better job. DT belongs in the Hall. I wish Dr Z would die already-I hate that old fugger.

htismaqe
02-09-2007, 02:00 PM
The point is Gretz had his shot-give it to someone that can do a better job. DT belongs in the Hall. I wish Dr Z would die already-I hate that old fugger.

So give somebody else a shot. And when they fail to get DT in as well, blame them too.

Eric
02-09-2007, 02:11 PM
Absolutely not. Then you're going to have people getting votes just because someone on the committee played for the same team.

Just put in a rule you cant do that. :hmmm:

Thomas will get in. Guy on the radio said there was a logjam this year.

Halfcan
02-09-2007, 02:12 PM
So give somebody else a shot. And when they fail to get DT in as well, blame them too.

I was thinking someone like Marcus Allen or Montana. Somone that knew DT and has the voters respect. Seems it has turned into a personal pissing match with Gretz.

The sack/strip/ fumble is the most exciting play on defense and DT was the king of it. It makes me wonder what they could be thinking when they put in a thug like Irvin and leave out a former NFL Man of the Year???

htismaqe
02-09-2007, 02:14 PM
I was thinking someone like Marcus Allen or Montana. Somone that knew DT and has the voters respect. Seems it has turned into a personal pissing match with Gretz.

The sack/strip/ fumble is the most exciting play on defense and DT was the king of it. It makes me wonder what they could be thinking when they put in a thug like Irvin and leave out a former NFL Man of the Year???

Nothing I have heard suggest it's a personal pissing match with Gretz. It's a personal pissing match with a defensive player that never won a Super Bowl.

Phobia
02-09-2007, 02:20 PM
Absolutely not. Then you're going to have people getting votes just because someone on the committee played for the same team.

You've already got that with journalists covering the same team. Do you think Gretz doesn't vote for every Steeler and Chief who becomes eligible?

Ari Chi3fs
02-09-2007, 04:19 PM
I think anyone named Gretz or Mods named Parker are full of shit.

Rain Man
02-09-2007, 04:48 PM
A case for a candidate that might seem overpowering to the average fan may be badly flawed in the eyes of voters who know a sport inside and out.


Yeah, because sportswriters who watch games week in and week out for two decades know a lot more than people like me, who do nothing but watch games week in and week out for three decades.

Demonpenz
02-09-2007, 05:11 PM
I am wondering how much the fact that thomas rarely just blew someone up. Comes into play. Other like backers. Butkis, singeltary, Lawrence taylor all where physical nightmare, with DT you knew you were probably just going to be stripped, not paralized.

Count Zarth
02-09-2007, 05:24 PM
You've already got that with journalists covering the same team. Do you think Gretz doesn't vote for every Steeler and Chief who becomes eligible?

No, and it's not the same. It would be far worse with players.

Dr. Facebook Fever
02-09-2007, 05:27 PM
I'll probably get butchered for this... but I'm not sure DT was a HOFer. Great yes.

C-Mac
02-09-2007, 06:45 PM
I'll probably get butchered for this... but I'm not sure DT was a HOFer. Great yes.

Go read or reread JoPo's article, he nails it.

htismaqe
02-09-2007, 07:38 PM
I think anyone named Gretz or Mods named Parker are full of shit.

Sound argument there. Hard to argue with such impeccable logic.

htismaqe
02-09-2007, 07:38 PM
I am wondering how much the fact that thomas rarely just blew someone up. Comes into play. Other like backers. Butkis, singeltary, Lawrence taylor all where physical nightmare, with DT you knew you were probably just going to be stripped, not paralized.

BLASPHEMY!

shaneo69
02-09-2007, 08:01 PM
I will be interested to see how quickly jackass Seau makes the HOF (1st ballot, I'm sure). Because there is no way Seau was better than DT. And I'm sure the Chiefs record during the '90's was better than the Chargers. So it's not like Seau played on great teams in a huge market.

htismaqe
02-09-2007, 08:05 PM
I will be interested to see how quickly jackass Seau makes the HOF (1st ballot, I'm sure). Because there is no way Seau was better than DT. And I'm sure the Chiefs record during the '90's was better than the Chargers. So it's not like Seau played on great teams in a huge market.

I GUARANTEE you he will be 1st ballot. Just wait and see.

shaneo69
02-09-2007, 08:07 PM
I GUARANTEE you he will be 1st ballot. Just wait and see.

So either you think Seau was better than DT, or you think Gretz has fugged up 3 years in a row.

htismaqe
02-09-2007, 08:11 PM
So either you think Seau was better than DT, or you think Gretz has fugged up 3 years in a row.

Absolutely not.

I think the committee plays favorites. DT isn't getting in, Gretz or no Gretz.

htismaqe
02-09-2007, 08:16 PM
This whole argument is laughable.

On one hand, we're supposed to believe that these people are committee members because they have observed decades of football and are experts in their field.

And on the same hand, we're also supposed to believe that whether a player gets in or doesn't depends completely on whether or not a representative can convince the rest of the committee that they belong.

I'm sure anybody with half a brain can see the contradiction in that.

Eric
02-09-2007, 08:17 PM
You've already got that with journalists covering the same team. Do you think Gretz doesn't vote for every Steeler and Chief who becomes eligible?


Yes. :clap: