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Jenson71
02-14-2007, 06:55 PM
Particularly for a lab?

What about a beagle?

JonesCrusher
02-14-2007, 07:00 PM
I wouldn't feed it a beagle. You sicko!

Jenson71
02-14-2007, 07:00 PM
I wouldn't feed it a beagle. You sicko!

LMAO

RJ
02-14-2007, 07:04 PM
I wouldn't feed it a beagle. You sicko!


Well done.

Phobia
02-14-2007, 07:07 PM
Stephensons was the best but they're closed now. Sorry.

Easy 6
02-14-2007, 07:08 PM
Well done.

Yep, thats easily rep worthy.

Well played Jones.

Dr. Facebook Fever
02-14-2007, 07:09 PM
I wouldn't feed it a beagle. You sicko!
nice moves...

Deberg_1990
02-14-2007, 07:12 PM
Ol Roy! Wal Mart baby!

Fish
02-14-2007, 07:19 PM
When I was a kid, I used to share Bow Wow Dog Chow with my German Shepard Macho.... that was tasty stuff...

But I don't think they make that brand anymore either....

Easy 6
02-14-2007, 07:27 PM
On the serious "tip", i've always heard that Science Diet is great stuff & they make a style for every kind of dog as far as active, old, nursing, pup etc.

I personally think a good 'ol Dog Chow or whatever, mixed with the occasional canned food is just fine for 'ol Shep.

RJ
02-14-2007, 07:35 PM
I use Purina One. It's a little less expensive than the brands they sell at the vet but seems to have the same stuff. Probably the best of the brands readily available w/o having to visit the pet specialty store.....and mostly because it "agrees" with my dogs.

Baconeater
02-14-2007, 07:37 PM
Bowl of anti-freeze.

Saulbadguy
02-14-2007, 08:20 PM
Prestone.

pr_capone
02-14-2007, 08:35 PM
My vet loves Authority from Pet Smart.

It is considered a premium brand but its as cheat if not cheaper than Purina and such.

http://www.petsmart.com/media/ps/images/articles/details/General/a13509_general_authority_3073f.jpg

Bowser
02-14-2007, 08:39 PM
Leftovers.

Easy 6
02-14-2007, 08:43 PM
But honestly, the industry standard is the Hank Petchow brand...not to be confused with Petchow brand rat poison.

HemiEd
02-14-2007, 08:52 PM
Royal Canin
http://www.royalcanin.us/dogfood/breedspecific.html

We buy it at Pet Smart, breed specific. Price is high, I thought. But it is efficient going in and coming out.

Small, tight shit is good shit, when it comes to my yard.

Joie
02-14-2007, 09:29 PM
My Dad's lab mix prefers Beneful.

Ultra Peanut
02-14-2007, 09:30 PM
A BOWL OF

Soup!!!!

jynni
02-14-2007, 09:36 PM
Any of the foods sold at Brookside Barkery are excellent.

http://www.barkerybath.com/products.htm

Silock
02-14-2007, 10:04 PM
The best food is one that doesn't have "filler" like rice as one of its main ingredients. Science Diet really isn't all that great. Just because it's sold at a vet doesn't make it a good food.

The best dog food is food you cook yourself for it, but that gets awfully expensive.

NewChief
02-14-2007, 10:05 PM
Nutro Lamb and Rice is a good quality food that won't break the bank. I've been feeding it to my lab since birth. Be sure to get the normal Nutro natural, not the Nutro Max or whatever.

Fish
02-14-2007, 10:06 PM
The best dog food is food you cook yourself for it, but that gets awfully expensive.

That'd cost like an arm and a leg.....

Silock
02-14-2007, 10:09 PM
Hence the qualifier at the end of my statement ;)

NewChief
02-14-2007, 10:12 PM
BTW, bunnytrdr (I think) has a lot of information on this. If it isn't him, there's some planeteer that has owned a pet store or co-op and knows quite a bit about different dog foods. I can tell you that I"ve done my research, though, and Nutro is a good food. You can definitely get better if you're willing to pay (Candide, California Natural, etc), but Nutro is "good enough" without breaking the bank.

Fish
02-14-2007, 10:13 PM
nnnnnnnnnnnrrrrrraaaaaaaaaaammmmmmmmm............

boogblaster
02-14-2007, 11:04 PM
Back when we used to run a bunch of hounds we fed them homemade dog food..road-kill..grain-bin bottoms..salt..grease from restaurants..sugar all cooked up in a 55gal. drum..they stayed fat as hell.. now I get my food from a retailer who buys it from a factory by the ton..I pay 17.00 bucks per 100 lbs.. 23% protein.. 19% fat it keeps my dogs in good shape....

DJ's left nut
02-15-2007, 01:12 AM
I use Diamond Lamb and Rice with my labs.

There are a lot of good foods, just a handful of warning signs.

Don't use food with corn or wheat as one of the first three ingredients. They're fillers and often alergens for dogs.

Also, try to avoid food with any sort of meat "meals". Meat Meal = leftover crap.

Purina one is pretty decent, royal canin is good (but expensive), Biljac, kirkwood....There really are TONS of good foods. However, grocery store foods generally suck (Pedigree, Ol' Roy, etc...) and Science Diet has been extremely overrated.

Here's a quick shot of information that oughta do the trick for you.

Overview:
http://www.woodhavenlabs.com/dogfoods.html

Fairly up to date ingredients lists
http://www.doberdogs.com/menu.html

I swear by Diamond. It's ingredients list stands up as well or better than pretty much any food out there, and at about $21 per 40 lb bag, it's extremely reasonably priced. We adopted one of our chocolate labs and in about 3 weeks his color went from a real light brown to a very rich dark chocolate. Before that experience, I had no idea what a difference food can make.

You'll have to find a supplier, but Diamondpet.com will show you where it's sold. If you have a Costco membership, Kirkland is the same thing(manufactured by Diamond). Chicken Soup is made by the same company as well

pr_capone
02-15-2007, 01:16 AM
You'll have to find a supplier, but Diamond.com will show you where it's sold. If you have a Costco membership, Kirkland is the same thing(manufactured by Diamond).
diamond.com took me to a jewelry site.

Guru
02-15-2007, 01:17 AM
Particularly for a lab?

What about a beagle?
My neighbors back in the 70's would have told you Gravy Train. their kids ate it everyday.

Extra Point
02-15-2007, 01:22 AM
My Lab enjoys Purina Healthy Weight Formula. We spoil her, though with lots of Milkbones.

She's a bitch, but don't tell her. It would hurt her feelings.

DJ's left nut
02-15-2007, 01:29 AM
diamond.com took me to a jewelry site.

Fixed, thanks

RedandGold
02-15-2007, 06:23 AM
We've been using Nutro Ultra with both of our dogs for the last year, and it has definitely sold me on spending extra for a "premium" dog food.

After upgrading from the Nutro Natural Choice, which is still better than what you would find at Wal-Mart, there was a noticeable improvement in the coat, with our boxer having less gas than before. We know a GSD breeder that uses Purina One, and the difference in coat between our GSD and her dogs is night and day.

I wouldn't waste my money on Science Diet. For what you pay, it simply isn't a very good dog food. For the same money, you're better off going with the Nutro Natural Choice.

With this being said, If you don't want to pay for a premium like Wellness, Blue Buffalo, or Nutro Ultra, Canidae is a good choice. Here's a link where Canidae is being sold through amazon.com:

Link to Canidae at Amazon.com (http://www.amazon.com/s/ref=sr_nr_i_1/105-7133114-9773261?ie=UTF8&keywords=canidae&rh=i%3Aaps%2Ck%3Acanidae%2Ci%3Agarden&page=1)

elvomito
02-15-2007, 06:40 AM
i like diamond
also, a local mill makes their own out in grandview, its pretty good too.

ZepSinger
02-15-2007, 07:25 AM
The best dog food is food you cook yourself for it, but that gets awfully expensive.

That's exactly what Mrs. Zep does for our 2 dogs. She gets cheap whole chickens from Aldi, has them ground at the local butcher shop, then mixes in stuff like oatmeal, avacado, etc. It's really not much more expensive than getting one of the better brands; it's just a pain in the butt and fairly time consuming.

If it was up to me, they'd get Purina.

Z

Braincase
02-15-2007, 07:36 AM
I hear there's anew brand called, "Barbaro"....







....too soon?

seclark
02-15-2007, 08:05 AM
I hear there's anew brand called, "Barbaro"....







....too soon?
nah...just about right.
sec

MOhillbilly
02-15-2007, 08:44 AM
i like diamond
also, a local mill makes their own out in grandview, its pretty good too.

imo having fed tons of diamond over the years it is complete shit these days. when diamond first came out it was decent. when i quit feeding diamond it was because youd get unground meal in chunks that would spoil half a bag of dogfood.
then they killed all those dogs on the east coast.

enhance makes a good feed for the price.

NewChief
02-15-2007, 08:46 AM
imo having fed tons of diamond over the years it is complete shit these days. when diamond first came out it was decent. when i quit feeding diamond it was because youd get unground meal in chunks that would spoil half a bag of dogfood.
then they killed all those dogs on the east coast.

enhance makes a good feed for the price.

I've heard the same thing about Diamond. Used to be a great food, but it's gone seriously downhill.

Simply Red
02-15-2007, 08:47 AM
nutro-pro = solid brown poop. Usually a good sign.

ck_IN
02-15-2007, 08:58 AM
I feed my Border Collie/Doberman mix Pedigree. I get it at Sams in a 55lb bag. She seems to do real well with it.

As an added bonus the makers take a percentage of their profits and donate it to animal shelters and animal welfare organizations.

HonestChieffan
02-15-2007, 09:07 AM
Its a dog not a gourmet. They will eat what you feed them and wag their tail every time.

Check em all out. Go with the one with highest % chicken feathers...that honestly is a source of the protein in dogfood. The high dollar ones have the benefit of smaller stools if that a big deal for you.

BIG_DADDY
02-15-2007, 10:36 AM
Its a dog not a gourmet. They will eat what you feed them and wag their tail every time.

Check em all out. Go with the one with highest % chicken feathers...that honestly is a source of the protein in dogfood. The high dollar ones have the benefit of smaller stools if that a big deal for you.

God you're an idiot.

BIG_DADDY
02-15-2007, 10:41 AM
I've tried all kinds but couldn't be happier with the Candidae dry MO recommended. Keeps him lean and his coat has a nice sheen to it. I have been adding Avoderm to it but I understand they sold the company. I have to find another supplement to replace it with.

HonestChieffan
02-15-2007, 10:47 AM
You may not agree with me but thus that does not make me an idiot.

Most Dog foods are rated by industry on stool size, stool numbers, and stool composition.

The protein in a dog food can come from meat,meat by products, or animal proteien...animal protein is a code word for processed feathers as well as any other body part that can be processed and used in a feed ingredient. The sources may be vegtable protein and that is generally soybean meal. Carbohydrate content is a lot of the time adjusted with corn. It can vary based on the net cost to the manufacturer and come from rice as well. High end dog foods will stay more to rice while low end will go more to corn..a side benefit of more consentrated food value is lower stool production, a major benefit to people whos dogs are kept in a kennel or run.

"By-products can be perfectly acceptable additions to the diet if prepared properly and if the nutrients they represent are usable by the pet. For example, chicken feathers and beaks are sources of protein, but that protein is not available to the dog without proper processing. Most people would prefer not to have chicken feathers and beaks, processed or whole, in their dogs’ food because they prefer not to think of feathers and beaks as edible. "

This is from :http://www.canismajor.com/dog/nutrit1.html

So before you declare the facts as the ranting of an idiot, get your facts right and develop a base of understanding.

HemiEd
02-15-2007, 10:55 AM
Most Dog foods are rated by industry on stool size, stool numbers, and stool composition.



That is why I said: "Small, tight shit is good shit, when it comes to my yard."

BIG_DADDY
02-15-2007, 11:04 AM
You may not agree with me but thus that does not make me an idiot.

Most Dog foods are rated by industry on stool size, stool numbers, and stool composition.

The protein in a dog food can come from meat,meat by products, or animal proteien...animal protein is a code word for processed feathers as well as any other body part that can be processed and used in a feed ingredient. The sources may be vegtable protein and that is generally soybean meal. Carbohydrate content is a lot of the time adjusted with corn. It can vary based on the net cost to the manufacturer and come from rice as well. High end dog foods will stay more to rice while low end will go more to corn..a side benefit of more consentrated food value is lower stool production, a major benefit to people whos dogs are kept in a kennel or run.

"By-products can be perfectly acceptable additions to the diet if prepared properly and if the nutrients they represent are usable by the pet. For example, chicken feathers and beaks are sources of protein, but that protein is not available to the dog without proper processing. Most people would prefer not to have chicken feathers and beaks, processed or whole, in their dogs’ food because they prefer not to think of feathers and beaks as edible. "

This is from :http://www.canismajor.com/dog/nutrit1.html

So before you declare the facts as the ranting of an idiot, get your facts right and develop a base of understanding.

You stupid ass I forgotten more than you will ever know. Here is what the big manufacturers produce.

Bad Dog Food
Ladies and gentleman, hold on to your hats. We’re about to tell you what bad dog food is, what’s in it, and who makes it. It’s not pretty.

The major dog food manufacturers are producing nothing but bad dog food. That may seem to be a grandiose claim, but there is a plethora of evidence to prove it. Behind the colorful bags, the jingles, the slogans, the commercials – major dog food brands supply one thing: bad dog food. It’s an injustice to all dogs and dog lovers. What these producers of bad dog food are really offering your favorite furry friend is a foul admixture of disgusting by-products and a cornucopia of toxic chemicals.

When cattle, chickens, lambs, swine, and other animals are slaughtered for food, it’s common that just the lean muscle is cut and used for human consumption. The left over carcass is then sent to a rendering plant, along with all the other waste that is around. This foul mess is rendered and will soon become bad dog food. What this amounts to is an appalling mixture of chicken feet, dead animals, euthanized dogs and cats, lungs, ligaments, beaks, teeth, intestines, and more. This bad dog food is cleaned up with the all-encompassing label of “meat-and-bone meal” and “by-products” on the outside of the bag.

Have you heard of the “4 D’s”? The “4 D’s” encompass the kind of cattle that are sent to rendering plants:

Dead
Dying
Diseased
Disabled
When all of this putrid material comes to the rendering plant, it's put in a huge vat and shredded. It’s then cooked at 220 to 270 degrees for 20 to 60 minutes. After it cools, the grease is skimmed off the top. This is "animal fat." The rest is pressed and dried. This is what’s called "meat and bone meal” and “by-products” – otherwise known as bad dog food.


Huge corporate conglomerates use pet food companies as a cheap and profitable way to dispose of waste produced by their human food companies:

Corporation
Pet Food Brands

Nestle
Alpo, Fancy Feast, Friskies, Mighty Dog, Purina One

Heinz
9 Lives, Amore, Gravy Train, Kibbles-n-Bits, Nature's Recipe

Colgate-Palmolive
Hill's Science Diet

Proctor & Gamble
Eukanuba, Iams

Mars
Kal Kan, Mealtime, Pedigree, Sheba, Waltham's



So why do dogs eat this bad dog food? Their senses are being duped. To make this bad dog food pleasing to the eyes and noses of our canine pals is nothing more than a lesson in chemistry.

Some of the chemicals used in pet food include:

BHA (butylated hydroxyanisole) - known to cause liver and kidney dysfunction
BHT (butylated hydroxytolulene) - known to cause liver and kidney dysfunction
Ethoxyquin - suspected of causing cancer
Propylene glycol - causes the destruction of red blood cells
Some other things that may be added to bad dog food are:

Coloring agents
Drying agents
Flavoring agents
Lubricants
Texturizers
So who’s responsible? Who allows such practices to continue unabated? Who regulates the pet food industry? The answer is:

PFI – The Pet Food Institute
AAFCO – Association of American Feed Control Officials
FDA/CVM – The Food and Drug Administration Center for Veterinary Medicine
These agencies profess standards and measures for dog food manufacturers to uphold, but they DO NOT have the authority to enforce them. Therefore, there are no assurances of the quality of ingredients that the major dog food manufacturers are putting into their bad dog food.

Redrum_69
02-15-2007, 11:06 AM
I use IAMS for my black lab pup.

BIG_DADDY
02-15-2007, 11:06 AM
This is what my dog food contains

Chicken & Turkey Meal – (Human Grade)
Hormone free, antibiotic free and ethoxyquin free. Human quality meat, flesh tissue and skin only.

Lamb Meal – (Human Grade)
Finest American lamb, hormone free, antibiotic free and ethoxyquin free. Human quality meat.

Herring Meal – (F.D.A. Inspected), (Omega 3)
Meats have been tested to have No Ethoxyquin Residual.

Brown Rice – (U.S.D.A. Grade #1)
Rice has been tested to have no pesticide residual; contains a generous supply of B vitamins, plus calcium, phosphorus, and iron.

White Rice – (U.S.D.A. Grade #1)
Rice has been tested to have no pesticide residual; also nutritious, and of all grains, Rice is the most easily digested and least likely to cause allergic reactions. Rice helps clear up psoriasis and has anticancer and antidiarrheal properties. Rice helps to lower cholesterol and may also help to prevent kidney stones.

Chicken Fat – (Omega 6), (Human Grade)
Naturally preserved with mixed tocopherols and ascorbic acid.

Sunflower Oil – (Omega 6)
Cold pressed, naturally preserved, Rich in linoleic acid and is known for producing a beautiful skin and coat, as well as visible sheen.

Omega-6 & Omega-3 Fatty Acids – (5:1 Ratio)
With balanced Omega's we can improve the coat and help to avoid hot spots, hair loss and allergy problems caused from flea bites, repeated licking and from a fat imbalance.

Eggs
An excellent source of protein and contains all the essential Amino Acids.

Flaxseed Meal – (Omega 3)
Aids in the movement of food through the digestive tract. Flax nourishes and is soothing to the stomach and intestinal linings. This plant source of Omega-3 fatty acids helps enhance the coat’s sheen.

Linoleic Acid – (Omega 6)
Essential fatty acid for healthy skin and coat.

Lecithin
Is used in the digestion and absorption of fats.

Alfalfa
Aids in healing allergies, stomach ailments and bad breath; cleanses the kidneys and removes poisons from the body; neutralizes acids; is an excellent blood purifier; improves the appetite and aids in the assimilation of protein, calcium and other nutrients.

Sage
Strengthens the mind and concentrating abilities; it aids in healing skin sores and skin eruptions and removing dandruff. It has been mostly employed in disordered states of the digestion and for its savory usage.

Rosemary
Is a stimulant of the circulatory system; to treat bad breath; stimulates the hair bulbs to new growth. Employed for its savory usage.

Cranberries
Prevents the spread of bacterial infections in kidneys and the urinary tract. Helps prevent Cystitis.

Apples
Rich in soluble fiber, helps lower blood cholesterol levels and normalizes blood sugar.

Amaranth
Vitamin packed herb, calms the stomach, reduces
tissue swelling, removes worms and parasites from the digestive tract.

Kelp
Rich in vitamins and contains 30 minerals, controls the thyroid and regulates the metabolism which aids in the digestion of foods and the burning of calories. Kelp aids with improved brain and nerve functions.

Taurine
An amino acid derivative found in meat that shields the heart from harm. Studies also show that Taurine may also benefit vision disorders, epilepsy, and gallstones. Plays an important part as a neurotransmitter, maintains the correct composition of bile and the solubility of cholesterol.

Yucca Schidigera Extract
Used for its reduction of both breath and stool odor! A cleansing agent. Used by the Indians of the southwest for skin disorders, skin eruptions and helps avoid inflammation.

Psyllium
All natural fiber intake to help in digestion, improve intestinal health and effective in reducing cholesterol. Also known as an anticarcinogenic.

Glucosamine
An amino acid sugar necessary for construction of connective tissue and healthy cartilage. Benefits include prevention of arthritis and improved joint health.

Chondroitin
Exist naturally in cartilage. When combined with Glucosamine it is known to produce a synergetic effect in helping prevent arthritis and improving joint health.

Prebiotics
Inulin (from chicory root), Fructooligosaccharide (FOS) / Saccharomyces Cerevisiae Fermentation Solubles, Mannan-Oligosaccharide (MOS) - Stimulates the growth of friendly and healthy bacteria. Benefits Include: Helping to prevent cancers and have antimicrobial activity. Prebiotics may further help in lowering triglycerides, stabilizing blood glucose levels, boosting the immune system and helping to improve mineral absorption and rid the gut of harmful microorganisms.

Probiotics
Enterococcus Faecium, Lactobacillus Acidophilus Fermentation Products - Aid in the maintenance of the healthy balance of intestinal flora. Benefits Include: Improved Digestion, Lower Cholesterol Levels, Strengthened Immune Systems and help Correct Digestive Disorders. Probiotics also aid in helping to prevent ulcers, inflammatory bowel diseases, lactose intolerance, yeast infections and colon cancer.

Digestive Enzymes
Aspergillus Oryzae, Bacillus Subtilis Fermentation Extracts, Papaya (containing the enzyme Papain), Pineapple (containing the enzyme Bromilian) – Hydrolyzes proteins, fats, oils, starches and carbohydrates for better digestion and absorption of nutrients.

Cellulase
Digestive enzyme that hydrolyzes fiber for better digestion and absorption of nutrients. Canidae Pet Foods is once again the leader in cutting edge nutrition by being the first pet food manufacturer to include proven enzymatic activity in our products backed by scientific data and proven methodology on the inclusion of Cellulase.

Saccharomyces Cerevisiae
All natural live culture. Acts in stimulating microbial and enzyme populations in the animal’s digestive system. This improves feeding efficiency and digestion.

Vitamins
Complete Vitamins including Antioxidants, Vitamin A, Beta Carotene, Vitamin C, Vitamin E, Alpha Tocopherols.

Minerals
Complete balanced minerals containing Amino Acid Chelated Minerals. When Amino Acids are bound to minerals they produce Chelated Minerals, which can be attributed to 3 to 10 time better assimilation of minerals.

What is an Herb?
The term herb has been used to refer to any plant or part, valued for its medicinal or savory qualities. Herbs contain the active ingredients that give the plant its medicinal properties.

Saulbadguy
02-15-2007, 11:06 AM
http://www.comicon.com/thebeat/old_yeller_dog_food.jpg

Baconeater
02-15-2007, 11:12 AM
LMAO It never ceases to amaze me at what people will argue about in this place.

HonestChieffan
02-15-2007, 11:21 AM
Im not sure what his point was....after the "stupid ass" Comment I agree with 100% of what he said and everything he posted is 100% correct as is what I posted.

Amazing what can happen when one doesnt attempt to read and understand content.

High end dog foods are exactly what Mr "You are a stupid ass" said. Low end dog foods are exactly what "Mr I must be a stupid ass" said.

I didnt know that agreeing and stating facts would send the poor soul into a fit of rage.

Maybe he needs a stool softener or a cold drink.

Easy 6
02-15-2007, 11:26 AM
LMAO It never ceases to amaze me at what people will argue about in this place.

Absolutely.

MOhillbilly
02-15-2007, 11:36 AM
I've tried all kinds but couldn't be happier with the Candidae dry MO recommended. Keeps him lean and his coat has a nice sheen to it. I have been adding Avoderm to it but I understand they sold the company. I have to find another supplement to replace it with.

barleans ground flax seed tablespoon per feeding and unpasturised apple cider vinegar teaspoon per feeding.

great in the keep and for supplemental additives.

bank it.

jynni
02-15-2007, 11:37 AM
Ladies and gentleman, hold on to your hats. We’re about to tell you what bad dog food is, what’s in it, and who makes it. It’s not pretty.

The major dog food manufacturers are producing nothing but bad dog food. That may seem to be a grandiose claim, but there is a plethora of evidence to prove it. Behind the colorful bags, the jingles, the slogans, the commercials – major dog food brands supply one thing: bad dog food. It’s an injustice to all dogs and dog lovers. What these producers of bad dog food are really offering your favorite furry friend is a foul admixture of disgusting by-products and a cornucopia of toxic chemicals.

When cattle, chickens, lambs, swine, and other animals are slaughtered for food, it’s common that just the lean muscle is cut and used for human consumption. The left over carcass is then sent to a rendering plant, along with all the other waste that is around. This foul mess is rendered and will soon become bad dog food. What this amounts to is an appalling mixture of chicken feet, dead animals, euthanized dogs and cats, lungs, ligaments, beaks, teeth, intestines, and more. This bad dog food is cleaned up with the all-encompassing label of “meat-and-bone meal” and “by-products” on the outside of the bag.

I didn't quote the whole post as it was a bit long but I agree 110% with everything Big_Daddy wrote. The day I found out just what was in Eukanuba and Science Diet was the day I switched my dog's food. I threw out a half full bag of Eukanuba and started him on Innova the same day.

Scooby ate Innova mixed in with raw frozen Nature's Variety for several years and I recently switched him completely over to Nature's Variety now that they make kibble. He also gets one raw, frozen rib bone a week.

MOhillbilly
02-15-2007, 11:43 AM
for all you folks that are paying out the yang for nutro,iams and the like Enhance is a great product for a good price. i feed my bulldog and hounddog the puppy 32p 21f(becuase theyre working dogs) and pay 17 for 40.

you can tell a good feed by how much you go through.

enhance is a good product i stake my rep as a dogman on it.

BIG_DADDY
02-15-2007, 11:43 AM
barleans ground flax seed tablespoon per feeding and unpasturised apple cider vinegar teaspoon per feeding.

great in the keep and for supplemental additives.

bank it.

Thanks. I get organic flax seed for myself and grind it. I'll start adding it. The Apple Cider Vinegar doesn't surprise me either. Thanks, you always give great advise. :thumb:

If I see my dog attempt to eat grass I have been giving him superfood and that seems to do away with all of that as well BTW and is very good for him.

MOhillbilly
02-15-2007, 11:46 AM
Thanks. I get organic flax seed for myself and grind it. I'll start adding it. The Apple Cider Vinegar doesn't surprise me either. Thanks, you always give great advise. :thumb:

If I see my dog attempt to eat grass I have been giving him superfood and that seems to do away with all of that as well BTW and is very good for him.
the cider vinegar works wonders on not burning your dog up in the keep.

just feed him some no sodium greenbeans for the grass eating.
ill go home on lunch and see if i cant find my keeps. ill smoke you if i can find them and fax em to you.

BIG_DADDY
02-15-2007, 11:48 AM
Im not sure what his point was....after the "stupid ass" Comment I agree with 100% of what he said and everything he posted is 100% correct as is what I posted.

.

Its a dog not a gourmet. They will eat what you feed them and wag their tail every time.

Check em all out. Go with the one with highest % chicken feathers...that honestly is a source of the protein in dogfood. The high dollar ones have the benefit of smaller stools if that a big deal for you.

Yea OK tard.

HonestChieffan
02-15-2007, 11:49 AM
OK I gotta ask...

Why would you not allow them to eat grass?

MOhillbilly
02-15-2007, 11:51 AM
OK I gotta ask...

Why would you not allow them to eat grass?


first off it has pesticides and fertilizers in it.

jynni
02-15-2007, 11:52 AM
OK I gotta ask...

Why would you not allow them to eat grass?
I don't know about other dogs but Scooby always pukes up the grass after eating it. Usually in his bed but sometimes in mine.

Other than that, I'm not terribly concerned if he eats the grass in my parents yard as they don't use any type of pesticides or such. I don't let him eat grass out of other people's yards (he likes to graze sometimes when we're on walks) as I have no idea what they may treat their lawn with.

Mr. Laz
02-15-2007, 11:53 AM
What's the best dog food?
"4-6 year old children"

~pitbull~

BIG_DADDY
02-15-2007, 11:55 AM
OK I gotta ask...

Why would you not allow them to eat grass?

Because he will come in the house and puke, that's why. The reason your dog is eating grass is because grass is some of the most concentrated nutrition on the planet, wheat grass, barley grass, ect. The problem with lawn grass or weed grass is that it is barbed and those barbs upset their stomach and that is why they puke it up. What they need and are trying to get are those nutrients in grass which can be supplied in superfood. I always have some around for myself so it's no biggy to just give him a little. Once you do that he won't attempt to eat grass after that as he will get all the nutrition his body is craving.

BucEyedPea
02-15-2007, 11:57 AM
human flesh



raw meat, actually

BIG_DADDY
02-15-2007, 11:57 AM
"4-6 year old children"

~pitbull~

I don't know about that but your avatar is looking pretty nutritious. :)

BIG_DADDY
02-15-2007, 12:00 PM
human flesh



raw meat, actually

People rave about the raw diet, I've never done it. That being the case I highly doubt almost anyone else here will.

I wouldn't mind trying it at some point though, well that and putting Gunther Fan on an Alpo diet.

NewChief
02-15-2007, 12:03 PM
People rave about the raw diet, I've never done it. That being the case I highly doubt almost anyone else here will.

I wouldn't mind trying it at some point though, well that and putting Gunther Fan on an Alpo diet.

Here's a huge article on BARF diets. It covers quite a bit of ground in the "debate" over it. Most people just assume that BARF is best, but it has problems, too.
http://www.salon.com/news/feature/2006/01/19/raw/print.html
The beef over pet food
Bowser gets raw meat because wolves eat it in the wild. Tabby gets raw chicken because lions don't eat kibble. But vets say the recent trend of raw feeding is dangerous to pets and people.
By Katharine Mieszkowski

Jan. 19, 2006 | On a recent winter afternoon in San Francisco's well-heeled Marina district, there's blood on the sidewalk.

Spilling out of the garage of a neat yellow house, dozens of cardboard boxes overflow with a smorgasbord of frozen raw meat and bones sealed in plastic bags. There's pork and beef from Niman Ranch, and whole quail from Cavendish Game Birds of Vermont. It looks like an upscale butcher has been pillaged by a modern-day Robin Hood, who left the spoils for the taking: lamb, chicken, goat, turkey, rabbit, buffalo -- a veritable Noah's Ark of high-quality protein plunder.

Straining at his leash, a golden retriever is overcome by lust, sniffing frantically at the inside of a box, drinking in the lingering scent of flesh and blood. Not to worry; this dog surely will get more than a nose-full later because the thousands of pounds of meaty carnage piled up here is all for dogs and cats.

It's monthly delivery day for San Francisco Raw Feeders, a buyers group with some 350 human members who strive to feed their animals a diet rich with raw meat -- and not just any meat, but sustainable, antibiotic- and steroid-free meat and bones from cows, pigs and poultry raised and slaughtered on small farms.

Joyce Chin is here to get chow for her eight greyhounds. She looks at the haul and stifles a laugh. "If my mother only knew the stuff that I feed my dogs, she would be horrified because a lot of this would go to feed people in China," she says. "People in America don't even eat a lot of these cuts."

That's true of the pork neck bones and feet, as well as the green tripe with trachea and gullet. Here's 5 pounds of beef hearts for $13.20, 12 pounds of beef livers for $25.80, and a 10-pound case of lamb breast bones for $20.

Tina Maria van der Horst, a tall blonde wearing a blue fleece jacket and jeans, is loading up her trunk with Niman Ranch pork neck bones and beef ribs. She's driven three hours in traffic from Grass Valley, Calif., to make the monthly pickup for her three Rhodesian Ridgebacks. She's been feeding them a raw diet for almost four years.

"I was a kibble person before that, and never again," says van der Horst. "All the little problems they had were instantly solved with the raw diet -- tooth problems, inflammatory bowel disease, ears that accumulated wax. They even smell better. It's like a car that's running well." Van der Horst spends $180 a month to feed her dogs (a 50-pound bag of kibble costs $21). But she thinks the price comes out in the wash. "You're sure to save in the end because you're not going to be running to the vet all the time with allergies, ear infections and teeth cleaning," she says.

Yes, the organic, sustainable, locally grown food craze has migrated off the dinner plate and into the dog dish and cat bowl. In recent years, dozens of raw feeding groups and co-ops have sprung up around the country. Pet owners from Texas to Kansas to Pennsylvania and Washington are trading treasured recipes as well as tips on the best source for whole rabbit.

Pet food companies aren't standing by and watching the customers most willing to spend money on their pets negotiate directly with farmers and ranchers. People annually spend $13 billion on dog and cat food, and pet companies are chomping at the bit to cater to organic customers. So far the Purinas haven't entered the fray but start-ups like Primal Pet Foods offer pre-mixed grinds of raw pet diets for sale at Whole Foods Market and boutique pet stores. Primal sells 65,000 pounds of frozen meals per month in 15 states including Illinois, South Carolina and Wisconsin. Jeffrey's Natural Pet Foods, with two locations in San Francisco, pulls in $300 a day in raw food sales at one of its neighborhood stores.

Although many San Francisco raw feeders say they are vegetarians, they see no contradiction in buying gore by the case for their animals. They view their dogs and cats as domesticated carnivores that should be powered by raw protein, not by packaged, processed, preservative-laden kibble made out of who knows what.

Just over a week ago, their suspicions about commercial pet food got some grisly confirmation when 100 dogs in the United States died from contaminated pet food sold under the Diamond, Country Value and Professional brands, now under recall. The food was contaminated with a toxin that wastes the liver, causing vomiting, orange-colored urine and jaundice. The toxin occurs naturally in corn crops that experience wet conditions following a drought. Diamond states that last summer it was rejecting one or two shipments per week of corn because of high levels of the toxin, but some slipped by. Meanwhile, the Pet Food Institute, which represents pet food manufacturers, issued a statement to reassure the public that most pet food is safe.

Raw feeders are not reassured. They insist their pet diets are safer than supermarket brands of pet food, and that dogs and cats get more vitamins and nutrients out of a raw piece of flesh than processed kibble or canned food, largely because "raw" is more natural.

The veterinary establishment is not sold. Neither the American Veterinary Association nor the British Veterinary Association endorses the health benefits of raw food. Both organizations caution that animals fed raw meat run the risk of contracting food-borne illnesses. The British veterinary group declares that "there is no scientific evidence base to support the feeding of raw meat and bones," and warns humans they risk exposing themselves to bacteria like salmonella.

The raw feeders find the dire warnings laughable.

Joanie Levin-Yarlick, a dog trainer, arrives at San Francisco Raw Feeders with her 12-year-old border collie, Levi. "He eats better than I do," she says. The dog sticks out his tongue, happily panting. "You eat better than I do," she coos.

Levin-Yarlick, who wears a white baseball cap and white sweat shirt with the words "Catholic Dogs Gone Bad" emblazoned over a cartoon of three fornicating pooches, says that Levi's diet includes chicken backs, necks and feet, turkey necks and beef bones. She's here not just for the meat, but also to sell T-shirts and sweat shirts, like the one she's wearing, to benefit a local animal nonprofit. One T-shirt displays two doggies kissing and says: "Don't Ask. Don't Tell."

The freezer back home at Levin-Yarlick's place is stuffed with raw food for Levi. "It's his freezer," she says. "I have nothing in it but ice cubes." But Levi's choice repast is not limited to flesh. It also includes a veggie mash that his doting owner makes out of broccoli, carrots, sweet potatoes, red chard, parsley, garlic, ginger, kelp, alfalfa, zucchini or squash, but never bananas or avocado.

Levin-Yarlick attests that switching her border collie from kibble to this homemade meat- and vegetable-rich diet has given him a lustrous coat and cleared up his bad skin. Since she started making her dog's meals, he's had more energy, better teeth, and even, she says, "his poop is nicer -- it's harder and smaller." But as passionate as Levin-Yarlick is about Levi's transformation on his homemade fare, she doesn't talk about Levi's diet with her vet. "She doesn't agree with the raw diet, so we don't discuss it."

Levin-Yarlick contends that raw food is a natural way to feed dogs. "When they evolved in the wild, nobody cooked their food for them," she says. "They killed their prey and they ate it."

Her view is supported by one of the gurus of raw feeding, Dr. Richard Pitcairn, a University of California at Davis-trained vet who is the author of "Dr. Pitcairn's Complete Guide to Natural Health for Dogs and Cats," which has sold more than 400,000 copies since it was first published more than 20 years ago. "A lot of this is common sense," Pitcairn says. "How have animals eaten for hundreds of thousands of years? Why should we think that the processed foods that we're feeding them are any better?"

At the heart of raw feeding is the conviction that the rise of the pet food industry over the last 60 years has weaned dogs and cats from the foods most natural to them. Instead, it's hooked them on a bunch of low-quality processed junk food that has a long shelf life, making it cheap and convenient for humans but not good for animals.

Raw feeders see the big pet food companies as offshoots of the human food industry, providing a market for all the waste not deemed fit for people. Say a chicken in the slaughterhouse has a cancerous growth on its wing. That goes into pet food, while the rest of the chicken is slated for human consumption, Pitcairn attests. The pet food trade association dismisses the allegation. Other goodies in pet food? Animals that died on the way to the slaughterhouse and even road kill, Pitcairn claims.

Turning that mishmash into kibble, he says, produces food that is overloaded with too many carbohydrates that dogs and cats, especially cats, don't need. In fact, some vets have experimented with treating feline diabetes by putting diabetic cats on a high-protein, low-carb diet, known, of course, as the "Catkins" diet.

Advocates of raw feeding say most vets receive minimal training in nutrition and simply go along with the nutritional guidelines of pet food companies, even peddling their diets in their offices. Many of the chronic health problems common in today's dogs and cats -- the kind of problems that constitute vets' bread-and-butter -- clear up with a more natural diet, according to Dr. Pitcairn.

"Sixty years ago, there was no such thing as commercial kibble," says Kasie Maxwell, founder of the San Francisco Raw Feeders, who spends about $300 a month feeding her two 7-year-old Great Danes and recently rescued 15-year-old Labrador retriever. Before she started this meat market for pets, Maxwell, a vegan, used to shop for her dogs at Whole Foods. She'd pick up chicken, turkey, beef and lamb -- "whatever they had that looked good, organic, hormone-free and antibiotic-free" -- to the tune of $500 a month.

Most of the raw feeders are casually dressed in jeans, and some, in suits, obviously cut work early to make the pickup. Maxwell, 34, is thin and pale, with red streaks in her dark hair. She wears a black knit cap, black pants and a red plaid jacket. She used to be a veterinarian tech, horse trainer, and information technology manager, but now works at home making her own line of doggie herbal treatments and remedies.

Maxwell read Dr. Pitcairn's book in the early '90s and tried the recipes in them with a 9-year-old kitty named Gem that was suffering from multiple health problems. Maxwell attests that the diet didn't just make Gem feel better, it changed her personality: "Upon switching her to raw, she became like a completely different cat," Maxwell says. "I caught her as a feral cat, and she was a little bit feisty and skittish. But she became really outgoing, really pleasant to be around, really sweet." The cat also lost weight, her arthritis went away, her teeth and overall health improved. Gem lived to be 22.

While Maxwell advocates raw food for dogs, she is especially enthused about it for cats. "In some animals it will fix everything," she says. "I'm talking not only about physical ailments but misbehaviors." Cats, she explains, are very particular. "They won't eat decomposing meat or carrion or fecal matter. They hunt, kill, consume and move on. They're not meant to have kibble sitting out in a bowl all day. I can tell that a kibble-fed cat is a kibble-fed cat just by looking at it. Their systems are designed to eat fresh raw meat at a sitting, and then have no food. They're not meant to be eating grain."

While raw feeders maintain that dogs and cats should eat a diet closer to what their wild cousins eat, and wild ancestors once ate, just what that might be, and how best to approach it, is a subject of hot debate within the raw community. Books like "Raw Meaty Bones" and "Give Your Dog a Bone" represent various permutations. Should you feed a dog grains? No grains? Dairy? No dairy? Vegetables and meat, or just meat? Grind up the bones, or let the dog chew them? What about nutritional supplements?

The debates take arcane turns. If you are a raw feeder who believes wolves do not consume the roughage in their ruminant prey's stomach, then you might feed your dogs meat and bones and no veggies. Depending on which breed of raw feeding is your fancy, Fido's menu can look very different. You might prepare a measured concoction of raw beef, pulped seasonal vegetables and nutritional supplements. Or you might go for the "whole prey" model and just throw a whole rabbit carcass in the backyard for the hungry mutt to tear apart. One approach is known as BARF, which can either stand for "Biologically Appropriate Raw Foods" or "Bones and Raw Food."

But it can take a bloody lot of effort -- meat grinder, anyone? -- to prepare many of these diets. Some companies now market commercial products to make raw feeding convenient. They sell packaged raw dinners, just thaw and serve for Rex and Tabby. There's Grandad's Pet Foods, the Honest Kitchen, Bravo! the Diet Designed by Nature, and Steve's Real Food for Pets. Nature's Variety markets its products with a photo of a lion and the caption: "He hunts his breakfast, and he's not looking for cereal."

At Jeffrey's Natural Pet Foods in San Francisco, the store's motto is "Feed 'em Raw." Among the wares sold here: Dr. Pitcairn's DVD titled "Eat, Drink, and Wag Your Tail," a bit of raw-diet marketing evangelism circa 2004, in which "Master Dog Chef" Micki Voisard, a cancer survivor who says changes in her diet arrested the disease, tells of turning to homemade meals to treat her three cancer-stricken dogs. "So, you wanna be a dog chef?" she asks, before pushing a grocery cart through a supermarket, instructing acolytes how to shop for spinach, celery, parsley, zucchini, garlic, carrots, unsalted butter, eggs and plain yogurt for hungry hounds.

Lynnet Spiegel, the proprietor of Jeffrey's, is a third-generation San Franciscan, who is so confident in the quality of her products that during my visit she popped a cat treat, a piece of freeze-dried chicken, into her mouth and ate it, while inviting me to do the same. I declined.

One customer who swears by the raw meals sold at Jeffrey's Natural Pet Foods is Keegan Walden, 30, an interface designer for Wells Fargo Bank. The raw meals he gives his two Rhodesian Ridgebacks consist of free-range chicken, beef parts and a bit of vegetables. "It sounds really disgusting, I know," says Walden. He adds to it Sojos, a mix of oats and walnuts, for roughage.

Walden says that there is no comparison between these ingredients and what's in off-the-shelf kibble: "It's not like you're getting filet mignon in beef kibble. It's skin, it's hoof, it's nail, it's intestine, it's garbage. Dogs can live on it, but it's garbage to begin with, and then it's rendered into dog food, so it's double garbage." He decries the preservatives that are used to make kibble last on the shelf for months and recites the horror stories about dead strays being found in pet food. "There's a lot of evidence to suggest that in the big industrial kibbles, there are other dead dogs," Walden says. "They've analyzed the ingredients, and they've found traces of phenobarbital, which is what they used to put animals to sleep."

Stephen Payne, vice president of communications for the Pet Food Institute, an industry group, says that there are no ground-up dogs and cats in pet food; he maintains it's an urban legend, which no amount of protestation from the industry has been able to quash. But Dr. Rodney Noel, state chemist for Indiana, the state agency that regulates pet food, and a member of the Association of American Feed Control Officials, says that in the past dead strays have been rendered into pet food, but that this hasn't happened for years. One reason: Pet food companies fear the bad publicity.

Commercial pet food is regulated federally by the U.S. Food and Drug Administration, as well as on a state-by-state basis, typically under the Department of Agriculture, with guidance from the Association of American Feed Control Officials.

Yet it's the raw diets, not the kibble and canned ones, that vets have special concerns about. Dogs choke on the bones, they report, and suffer obstructions in their digestive tracts that require surgery. The FDA has taken note of the health risks posed for people who feed their pets raw meat, fearing they could contact salmonella and e-coli. With the practice growing in popularity, the agency has issued guidelines for companies marketing raw meat to pets: "FDA does not believe raw meat foods for animals are consistent with the goal of protecting the public from significant risks, particularly when such products are brought into the home and/or used to feed domestic pets."

Julie Churchill is an assistant clinical professor in companion animal nutrition at the University of Minnesota's College of Veterinary Medicine. She is not a fan of the raw diets. In general, people handle raw meat or chicken for only a few minutes before tossing it on the grill. But raw feeding exposes us to potential pathogens longer and in different ways. "Even if the animal is not sick, people could get sick from handling the food bowls, handling the food or petting their animals," Churchill says. Just letting your dog lick your face could make you ill, even if your dog is healthy. Such animals are known as "silent shedders," as pathogens escape from their feces, coats or mouths.

Pitcairn believes that risk is overblown. "I've never had an instance to my knowledge over the last 25 years or so where a family has become ill from that," he says. "I don't think that it's very common."

If you must feed your dog fresh beef or chicken, please cook it, recommends Jeffrey T. LeJeune, a veterinarian and assistant professor in the Food Animal Health Research Program at Ohio State University. LeJeune wrote a 2001 paper in the Journal of the American Veterinary Association, "Public Health Concerns Associated With Feeding Raw Meat to Dogs," which cautioned vets to "not recommend the feeding of raw meat to dogs."

Dr. Rachel Strohmeyer, a vet in Kingston, Wash., who also holds a master's degree in clinical sciences and epidemiology, agrees. After conducting research into an outbreak of salmonella at a greyhound breeding farm in Colorado, and investigating pathogens in commercially available raw pet food diets, she says: "I don't have a problem with people who want to make their animal's own food, but I don't understand why you can't cook it. If you cook it, you're going to kill a lot of the potential hazards. Just cook the food."

But supporters of raw feeding believe it's not just the freshness and quality of the ingredients that helps their animals. They believe the heat robs the protein of some of its nutritional value. Molly Rice, a holistic vet who practices at San Francisco Veterinary Specialists in San Francisco, says that about a third of her clients feed raw meat to their pets. Serving it raw, she says, preserves enzymes, vitamins and amino acids. She does, however, advise clients to freeze the food for 72 hours to cut down on bacteria and parasites, and to clean feeding bowls at every feeding.

The Association of American Feed Control Officials, which produces guidelines that states use to determine what's in pet food and how it's sold in the U.S., doesn't have special rules for raw food.

"There are no regulatory measures on raw," says Matt Koss, a chef trained in French and Mediterranean cooking, who now makes food for dogs and cats at Primal Pet Foods. "The guidelines are only geared to regulate kibble, canned and treats. As raw grows, there will be a need for some type of regulation because we can't have people making it out of their garage and potentially jeopardizing the welfare of animals, which will in turn jeopardize the industry." However, he says, the nascent raw food pet industry recently formed the North American Raw Pet Food Association, which will pool resources, create industry standards and conduct scientific research on the nutritional value of raw food.

But even Koss says that the health benefits of feeding raw meat to pets are purely anecdotal, based on the experiences of individual practitioners and holistic and alternative vets. "Most vets think it's dangerous because of bacteria, and they're really unsure what the benefits are nutritionally," he says.

Churchill, the veterinary nutritionist at the University of Minnesota, says it's much harder to create a balanced diet for your pet than you might think. When clients bring her pet recipes plucked from the Internet or books, "it always has some nutritional problems with it," she says. She asks owners to be as skeptical of the people selling raw pet food or recipes as they are of the veterinary establishment. "Are they funding scientific research? Do they have data to show that their product is scientifically based? What are the credentials of whoever is giving you the advice?"

She takes a dim view of the suspicion that vets have been snookered by the pet food industry. "I have not been bought off by a pet food company," she says. "Most vets get a free mug at their national meeting; they're not getting huge financial kickbacks."

Even the holistic or alternative vets who recommend a raw diet say it's not for every dog or cat. "The raw food diet, even though it's a great diet, it's not really great for everybody," says Sara Skiwski, a vet at the Western Dragon in San Jose. "I get irritated not only with vets, but also with some of my clients who feed raw food and are fanatical about it. I really believe that the worst diet in the whole world is a homemade raw food diet that's not properly nutritionally balanced." Just as you wouldn't eat chicken and broccoli every day for the rest of your life, she says, you shouldn't feed your dog or cat the same diet of raw meat every day.

Finally, some animal experts are flabbergasted by the raw feeding debate. Katie Merwick, who rehabilitates wolves at Second Chance Ranch animal rescue sanctuary in Washington state, believes that many of the cures cited by raw feeders -- skin infections, allergies, ear infections -- can be gained by feeding pets a higher quality of kibble. Oh, and that glossy coat raw feeders brag about? That's from all the fat in the meat, she says, which can cause other health problems like pancreatitis. As someone who has seen malnutrition and disease in wolves firsthand, she cautions pet owners against making a fetish out of what animals eat in the wild. "Our dogs are privileged to have formulated food," she says. After all, "we don't eat like cavemen anymore."

HonestChieffan
02-15-2007, 12:07 PM
How do Coyotes get by without all this science?

NewChief
02-15-2007, 12:08 PM
How do Coyotes get by without all this science?

ROFL

You've just made their point for them. Coyotes eat raw food, which is the "best" diet. High quality foods are intended to, as closely as possible, imitate raw foods while still allowing for mass production. The entire problem with low quality foods is that they're so FAR from what a canine is supposed to actually be eating.

HonestChieffan
02-15-2007, 12:11 PM
Thank you, just wondered cause we see coyotes eat grass a lot in pasture and we know they eat a lot of mice and rodents as well as birds and such. But thats far from a pure meat diet because they tend to consume the whole animal...bones skin hair and all...

BIG_DADDY
02-15-2007, 12:19 PM
Thank you, just wondered cause we see coyotes eat grass a lot in pasture and we know they eat a lot of mice and rodents as well as birds and such. But thats far from a pure meat diet because they tend to consume the whole animal...bones skin hair and all...

And what the animal had in it's stomach. They also can digest some wild grasses and do. Even the barbed stuff they get some juice out of they just puke out the barbs. So to answer your question they are getting it in the wild.

listopencil
02-15-2007, 12:23 PM
I use the Wal Mart stuff. Lamb And Rice. Also Atta Boy.

Saulbadguy
02-15-2007, 12:25 PM
I'm eventually going to get a dog. I'm a fan of Science Diet for the cat, i'll probably just stick to that for the dogs.

Braincase
02-15-2007, 12:35 PM
I'm eventually going to get a dog. I'm a fan of Science Diet for the cat, i'll probably just stick to that for the dogs.

Yup. I use Hill's for my two dogs, a pug and a puggle.

Lzen
02-15-2007, 02:50 PM
I haven't read all the posts yet, so if this has already been covered, my apologies. I got this from a boxer forum.

Choosing a good kibble for your boxer doesn’t always seem easy. The labels on the packages appear designed to confuse, and beyond identifying whether a food is chicken or lamb-based, people often come away feeling they need a science degree to decipher the rest. And while an ingredient may sound good and conjure up images of plump juicy meat parts, you need to be aware that the definition of what constitutes that ingredient (if it even has a definition) can be quite different. Well, we can’t change the labelling laws here – but we can give you an overview of what we think you should be looking for in a good quality dry dog food.

First and foremost, dogs are carnivore/omnivores – a good proportion of their diet needs to be meat protein sources. Plant proteins tend to be more difficult for dogs to digest, are less palatable and offer less nutrition. Grains are lower than vegetables on the digestibility and nutritional adequacy scale.

So, look at the top five or so ingredients - these form the major portion of the food. The ingredients in dog food are required to be listed in order of weight. So that means that the first ingredient on the list is the one with the greatest volume in the food. We want this to be a named meat source – eg. Chicken, beef or lamb. Never unidentified “meat” and never a "by-product". Note also that since the list runs in order of weight, it is better to see “chicken meal” than “chicken” at the top of the list. “Chicken” includes a high degree of water content, “chicken meal” does not – so with “chicken” it is quite possible that once the water content is removed, it may actually be the fourth or fifth ingredient, not necessarily the first as suggested.

Within the first five ingredients we want to see at least two (preferably more) named meat sources, and as few grains as possible. The first ingredient should certainly be a named meat source. Grains are almost unavoidable in kibble, but they are not a natural source of food for dogs, are often undigestible (what’s the point of a food if your dog can’t digest it?) and are common allergens. Whole ground grains are far better than grain fragments (floor sweepings?) which typically have little or no nutritional value. Brown rice (a whole grain) is better than white rice, which has been stripped of about 75% of its nutritional value. Whole fruits and vegetables are better nutritional sources than grains.

Looking further down the list, we prefer not to see any corn products in the food (corn, corn meal, corn gluten meal, corn syrup, etc) as corn is very difficult to digest, of little nutritional value, and a very common allergen in boxers. Same goes for wheat products/fragments and for beet pulp or molasses (sugar). It should go without saying that we would never buy a food with any form of corn or wheat in the top five ingredients.

We do not want to see any by-products in the food, especially of un-specified source. The AAFCO definition of “chicken by-products” for example is “ground, rendered, clean parts of the carcass of slaughtered chicken, such as necks, feet, undeveloped eggs and intestines, exclusive of feathers, except in such amounts as might occur unavoidable in good processing practice.” Now some of that stuff is OK – nothing wrong with chicken necks. But it is impossible to ascertain the quality and most of the ‘good stuff’ such as hearts, livers, and kidneys don’t go into by-products, they are useful elsewhere, unless the quality is too low. By-products are really those parts that can’t be used anywhere else and a lot of it isn’t OK. Without any ability to determine quality, we prefer to avoid by-products.

Do not forget to look at the preservatives used. Some of these are carcinogenics. Some common cacinogenic preservatives to look for and avoid are: BHT, ethoxyquin, BHA and propylene glycol (a less toxic form of anti-freeze). Citric acid as a preservative can also be problematic as it dramatically increases the risk of bloat if the food is moistened before feeding (according to veterinary research). In our opinion, it is better to purchase a food using tocopherols, ascorbic acid (Vitamin E) or anti-oxidants such as rosemary extract. Better yet, purchase a food that doesn’t contain preservatives at all (there are a few).

We do not want to see any artificial colours, flavours or sweeteners added to the food.

Cunning deceptions and other issues:

“Splitting” This is where the manufacturer “splits” the total amount of an ingredient into component parts to make it appear as though there is a lesser amount of the ingredient. An example would be an ingredient list that read like “chicken meal, ground corn, brown rice, corn gluten meal, lamb meal…”. Looks OK – the top ingredient is chicken meal. But is it really? Well, probably not. The manufacturer has “split” the corn content into component parts of ‘ground corn’ and ‘corn gluten meal’. As a total, the corn content is probably greater than the chicken meal (remember that we don’t know the %, only the order of weight).

Unlisted preservatives: The pet food maker is only required to disclose on the ingredient list those ingredients and preservatives that they themselves added to the food. Some ingredients – usually fats, and some fish products – have preservatives (usually ethoxyquin) added before they arrive at the pet food factory. You will not see this included on the ingredient list. Note that the use of ethoxyquin to preserve food for humans is strenuously debated as it is thought by some to be carcinogenic. The amount of ethoxyquin allowed in human food is a fraction of that allowed in pet food.

Let’s look at some examples:

EXAMPLE 1: Ingredient list for ‘Go! Natural’ adult chicken formula:
Chicken Meal, Chicken Meat, Whole Brown Rice, Whole White Rice, Hulless Barley, Sunflower Oil, Chicken Fat (preserved with mixed tocopherols (vit E), citric acid (vit C) and Rosemary extract), Salmon Meal, Dried Whole Potatoes, Rice Bran, Natural Chicken Flavour, Dried Whole Apples, Dried Whole Carrots, Ground Flax, Bee Pollen, Dried Whole Garlic, Ginger, Dried Alfalfa, Dried Whole Egg, Beta Carotene, Dried Whole Cranberries, Kelp, Yucca Shidegera, Glucosamine, Chondroitin Sulphate, Potassium Chloride, Dicalcium Phosphate, Vitamin A acetate, Cholecalciferol (vit D), dl alphatocopherol acetate (vit E), ferrous sulphate, **zinc proteinate, zinc oxide, niacin, calcium pantothenate, copper sulphate, **copper proteinate, manganous oxide, riboflavin,
calcium iodate, thiamine mononitrate, pyridoxine hydrochloride (vit B6), folic acid, biotin, sodium selenite, cobalt carbonate, menadione sodium bisulphate complex (vit K), Vitamin B12.
** these items are chelated minerals.

Analysis: our opinion
Top 5 ingredients Chicken Meal, Chicken Meat, Whole Brown Rice, Whole White Rice, Hulless Barley
comment Two named meat sources in the top five ingredients (good). The next three are grains (two of which are rice) – brown rice is a whole grain though and rice/barley are much better than corn/wheat.
Other ingredients Sunflower Oil, Chicken Fat (preserved with mixed tocopherols (vit E), citric acid (vit C) and Rosemary extract), Salmon Meal, Dried Whole Potatoes, Rice Bran, Natural Chicken Flavour, Dried Whole Apples, Dried Whole Carrots, Ground Flax, Bee Pollen, Dried Whole Garlic, Ginger, Dried Alfalfa, Dried Whole Egg, Beta Carotene, Dried Whole Cranberries, Kelp
comment Plenty of whole fruits and vegetables, which is good to see, along with whole eggs. Chicken ‘flavour’ is not so good – we prefer not to see artificial flavourings in food (there is no definition/regulation of the word ‘natural’ for pet foods).
Dried whole eggs are good.
The rest Yucca Shidegera, Glucosamine, Chondroitin Sulphate, Potassium Chloride, Dicalcium Phosphate, Vitamin A acetate, Cholecalciferol (vit D), dl alphatocopherol acetate (vit E), ferrous sulphate, **zinc proteinate, zinc oxide, niacin, calcium pantothenate, copper sulphate, **copper proteinate, manganous oxide, riboflavin,
calcium iodate, thiamine mononitrate, pyridoxine hydrochloride (vit B6), folic acid, biotin, sodium selenite, cobalt carbonate, menadione sodium bisulphate complex (vit K), Vitamin B12.
comment Nothing startling here
Preservatives Mixed tocopherols (vit E), citric acid (vit C) and Rosemary extract
comment Uses naturally-occurring preservatives. Note the use of citric acid (don’t pre-moisten this food)
Conclusion Looks pretty good. We note that the top five ingredients contain 2 forms of ‘chicken’ and 2 of ‘rice’, plus chicken fat at #7. If these ingredients were not ‘split’, the top five would still include 2 named meat protein sources (since the salmon meal would make it into the top 5) and it is thus very likely that the food contains a reasonable amount of chicken versus grains.
We appreciate the range of whole fruits and vegetables in this food, and note that the grains used are ‘whole’ and do not include common nasties such as corn, wheat or beet pulp.
We have some reservation about the use of ‘chicken flavour’ but within an otherwise good ingredient list, don’t feel it is worth getting too excited about this one.
We do note the use of citric acid as a preservative, which is fine but means that this food should not be pre-moistened before feeding.



EXAMPLE 2: Ingredient list for ‘Purina Pro Plan’ adult lamb and rice formula:
Lamb, brewers rice, corn gluten meal, whole grain wheat, chicken meal, beef tallow preserved with mixed-tocopherols (source of Vitamin E), oat meal, pearled barley, fish meal, dried beet pulp, natural flavors, dicalcium phosphate, calcium carbonate, potassium chloride, salt, L-Lysine monohydrochloride, choline chloride, vitamin supplements (E, A, B-12, D-3), zinc sulfate, ascorbic acid (source of Vitamin C), ferrous sulfate, riboflavin supplement, niacin, calcium pantothenate, manganese sulfate, biotin, thiamine mononitrate, folic acid, copper sulfate, pyridoxine hydrochloride, menadione sodium bisulfite complex (source of Vitamin K activity), calcium iodate, sodium selenite. H-4470

Analysis: our opinion
Top 5 ingredients Lamb, brewers rice, corn gluten meal, whole grain wheat, chicken meal
comment Two named meat sources in the top five ingredients, but we note that the first is lamb (inclusive of its water content) and the chicken is the fifth ingredient. We are not confident that the total meat content of this food is high compared to the grains. We prefer not to see brewers rice (by product of alcohol industry), corn gluten meal or wheat in a dog food.
Other ingredients Beef tallow preserved with mixed-tocopherols (source of Vitamin E), oat meal, pearled barley, fish meal, dried beet pulp
comment Beef tallow is a low quality animal fat which we prefer not to see in pet food.
Oat meal and barley are fine (barley is a whole grain) but we are not so happy to see beet pulp included. Fish meal is another meat protein source, but is likely to be preserved with ethoxyquin.
Food contain no whole fruits or vegetables.
The rest Natural flavors, dicalcium phosphate, calcium carbonate, potassium chloride, salt, L-Lysine monohydrochloride, choline chloride, vitamin supplements (E, A, B-12, D-3), zinc sulfate, ascorbic acid (source of Vitamin C), ferrous sulfate, riboflavin supplement, niacin, calcium pantothenate, manganese sulfate, biotin, thiamine mononitrate, folic acid, copper sulfate, pyridoxine hydrochloride, menadione sodium bisulfite complex (source of Vitamin K activity), calcium iodate, sodium selenite. H-4470
comment We prefer not to see artificial flavours and colours added to dog food (“natural flavours”) or the use of salt.
Preservatives Mixed tocopherols
comment Uses naturally-occurring preservatives
Conclusion Not a food we would choose. We note that the top five ingredients do contain 2 named meat protein sources, but since the first ingredient is ‘lamb’ inclusive of its water content and the second meat ingredient doesn’t occur until 5th on the ingredient list, we are not convinced that this food contains a reasonable proportion of meat protein versus grains.
There are no whole fruits and vegetables in this food, and note that the grains used are ones we prefer to avoid (corn gluten meal, brewers rice and wheat) and which are common allergens. We would not buy a dog food with corn or wheat in the top five ingredients, and prefer not to see these grains at all.
We do not like to see artificial flavours or colours added to dog food, nor the use of salt.
Naturally occurring preservatives are used in this food.


For more advice, or just to discuss food ingredients, visit our Nutrition forums and Puppy Feeding forum.

Large breed and puppy foods

Boxers are not large breed dogs. It is true that a few (but by no means all) food manufacturers have decided that any breed of dog that is likely to weigh over 50lb as an adult is a “large” breed and therefore needs to be fed a food formulated for large breeds. We disagree – with the exception of a few abnormally large individuals, boxers are, and always have been, a medium sized breed. They should not be fed large breed food.

It is probably more helpful though, if we examine the rationale for creating a large breed formulation in the first place. Over-nutrition of puppies – most especially excess amounts of protein and calcium – is implicated in the development of a number of growth and bone development disorders in dogs. It also greatly exacerbates the development of hip dysplasia, which occurs most frequently in large and giant breeds (it occurs commonly in the boxer too).

So for these dogs, pet food manufacturers have come up with reduced protein and calcium formulas, often with glucosamine and chondratin supplements added “to ease painful joints”. Well, glucosamine and chondratin may be useful supplements in easing the pain of arthritic and otherwise damaged joints (the jury is still out on that one) but the small amounts added to pet food are unlikely to be effective. More importantly, there is no evidence to suggest that they may be helpful in preventing the development of joint conditions in the first place. We are not believers in bombarding a dog’s system with supplements and additives in the hope of preventing a condition that the dog doesn’t actually have.

Has anyone spotted the biggest flaw yet? Puppy growth problems are at least partially attributable to over-nutrition, and excess amounts of protein and calcium commonly found in puppy formulas. In some cases, puppy foods can have protein levels up to around 44% (versus around 22-25% for adults). So why would you feed a puppy formula in the first place? There is no reason to suspect puppies need different food from adults – and post-weaning, they certainly wouldn’t have got different food in a natural environment. Humans and other mammals don’t feed their children different food either…

Our advice would be to avoid the large breed and puppy formulations completely, and to choose instead a good quality adult or all-life-stages food instead. If you do choose to feed a puppy food, please ensure that the protein and calcium levels are not excessive and switch to an adult food by around 4-6 months.

Allergic dogs

Food allergies are common in boxers, and we recommend that you avoid foods that contain ingredients such as corn (any form), wheat, brewers yeast, any form of by-products and artificial flavours and colourings (even if it’s called “natural” flavour – there is no regulation of the word natural in pet food). These grains are the most common allergens and in any case, are not a good nutritional basis for dogs as they are not well designed to digest grains.

Sometimes dogs can be allergic to particular meat proteins though. Turkey and beef are common culprits, though dogs can also be allergic to chicken, lamb, fish – in fact just about anything. Some manufacturers do produce foods made with fewer and less common meat protein sources and without grains that can be very useful for allergic dogs. Examples include duck and potato, venison, bison, or fish and potato formulas.

If you suspect your dog has allergies, then choosing a food with a low number of grains and only one or two different meat protein sources is a good start (eg. a food with chicken and lamb, rather than chicken, turkey, lamb and fish). Common signs of food allergies are red itchy skin, ears or feet, persistent ear infections, diarrhoea and throwing up, and raised bumps on the skin.

FAX
02-15-2007, 03:15 PM
Never tried it, but this looks like it has potential.

Recipe (http://www.recipesource.com/ethnic/asia/filipino/00/rec0001.html)

FAX

seclark
02-15-2007, 03:20 PM
Never tried it, but this looks like it has potential.

Recipe (http://www.recipesource.com/ethnic/asia/filipino/00/rec0001.html)

FAX
yuck...i hate onions.
sec

HonestChieffan
02-15-2007, 04:40 PM
Poor buggers that have to eat Old Roy. They dont know how tortured their lives are. Purina Dog Chow is bad?

What was that dog food with the little wagon pulled by little horses that was on TV years ago? Man I remember how happy those dogs were and how glad they were to get that dinner.

http://www.extremefunnypictures.com/items541/243.jpg

CosmicPal
02-15-2007, 04:57 PM
I usually feed my dog Innova, Natural Balance, or Nutro. Good, organic dog food.

Most mornings I'll add one or two of the following raw foods: brown rice, cottage cheese, oatmeal, broccoli, eggs, peas, tofu, and cooked chicken.

He's one healthy dawg....

memyselfI
02-15-2007, 05:25 PM
I use the Wal Mart stuff. Lamb And Rice. Also Atta Boy.

I use the Sam's Club or Costco Premium brand foods...

and I work in a Vets office and can get Science Diet at 50% off. Why not the Science Diet? Because the number one ingredient in their adult maintenance food is corn. No thanks. For the price and the quality of food the 'Club' premium foods are very good. Especially Costco's brand.

I recommend SciDi only if you need a prescription food which is tailored to a specific need of your dog like kidney or digestive issues. THEN you really need to follow your Vet's advice and go with the prescription food.

My last lab/chow mix lived 13 plus years and was euthanized because of a stroke. She was healthy up until her death and she was raised on Sam's Club food.

BIG_DADDY
02-15-2007, 05:53 PM
I use the Sam's Club or Costco Premium brand foods...

and I work in a Vets office and can get Science Diet at 50% off. Why not the Science Diet? Because the number one ingredient in their adult maintenance food is corn. No thanks. For the price and the quality of food the 'Club' premium foods are very good. Especially Costco's brand.

I recommend SciDi only if you need a prescription food which is tailored to a specific need of your dog like kidney or digestive issues. THEN you really need to follow your Vet's advice and go with the prescription food.

My last lab/chow mix lived 13 plus years and was euthanized because of a stroke. She was healthy up until her death and she was raised on Sam's Club food.

Holy Alah, you work for a vets office and that's the best advice you can give? ROFL

HemiEd
03-05-2007, 12:44 PM
Lzen, thanks for posting the article discussing the ingredients. It was long, consequently I did not quote it. It was a real eye opener.
We were already using a good dogfood but your post got me thinking about the snacks we give Toto. He expects a snack every time I walk in the house, and when he comes back in the house from doing his duty outside.
I looked at all of the labels, and got rid of all of them. They were horrible. I deduced, that all the good we were doing by feeding him the best dog food, was being compromised by the snacks. They were full of corn syrup and all the bad stuff listed in your post.
I ended up going to pet smart and spent a lot of time looking at ingredients in snacks. I finally found three, they were up high on the shelf.
We have already started seeing the benefits, and he absolutly loves them. His coat is shinier, he is peppier etc.
Thanks Lzen!

Lzen
03-05-2007, 12:56 PM
Lzen, thanks for posting the article discussing the ingredients. It was long, consequently I did not quote it. It was a real eye opener.
We were already using a good dogfood but your post got me thinking about the snacks we give Toto. He expects a snack every time I walk in the house, and when he comes back in the house from doing his duty outside.
I looked at all of the labels, and got rid of all of them. They were horrible. I deduced, that all the good we were doing by feeding him the best dog food, was being compromised by the snacks. They were full of corn syrup and all the bad stuff listed in your post.
I ended up going to pet smart and spent a lot of time looking at ingredients in snacks. I finally found three, they were up high on the shelf.
We have already started seeing the benefits, and he absolutly loves them. His coat is shinier, he is peppier etc.
Thanks Lzen!

Glad to help. ;)

tomahawk kid
03-05-2007, 01:02 PM
the cider vinegar works wonders on not burning your dog up in the keep.

just feed him some no sodium greenbeans for the grass eating.
ill go home on lunch and see if i cant find my keeps. ill smoke you if i can find them and fax em to you.

Ok - stupid question:

My Schnauzer occassionally eats grass. What does that mean?

I feed her Nutro Natural Lamb and Rice by the way.

tomahawk kid
03-05-2007, 01:04 PM
Because he will come in the house and puke, that's why. The reason your dog is eating grass is because grass is some of the most concentrated nutrition on the planet, wheat grass, barley grass, ect. The problem with lawn grass or weed grass is that it is barbed and those barbs upset their stomach and that is why they puke it up. What they need and are trying to get are those nutrients in grass which can be supplied in superfood. I always have some around for myself so it's no biggy to just give him a little. Once you do that he won't attempt to eat grass after that as he will get all the nutrition his body is craving.

What's classified as "superfood"?

Lzen
03-05-2007, 01:15 PM
Ok - stupid question:

My Schnauzer occassionally eats grass. What does that mean?

I feed her Nutro Natural Lamb and Rice by the way.

I thought grass eating was to help an upset tummy.

tomahawk kid
03-05-2007, 01:19 PM
I thought grass eating was to help an upset tummy.

That's what I thought too. But it sounds like it might be a nutritional deficiency.

dtrain
03-05-2007, 01:20 PM
The bad kids next door!

BIG_DADDY
03-05-2007, 01:29 PM
What's classified as "superfood"?

Superfood is a usually a drink high in phytonutrients. Odwala makes one. I call them green goo drinks. I drink them myself so it's easy to give the dog some.

tomahawk kid
03-05-2007, 01:53 PM
Superfood is a usually a drink high in phytonutrients. Odwala makes one. I call them green goo drinks. I drink them myself so it's easy to give the dog some.

Do green beans do that much for them?

She doesn't seem to like the Nutro as much as the Eukanuba we had her on previously.

As a result, she'll sometimes vomit bile in the afternoons - vet said that's a common condition in smaller dogs if they don't eat intermitantly throughout the day (she doesn't).

I'm thinking about throwing some green beans on her Nutro in the morning to circumvent the vomiting issues.

Can you think of any drawbacks?

Chiefsrocker
03-07-2007, 07:12 PM
We have 3 beagles and they love Eukanuba Lamb And Rice. They also love Kibbles and Bits, which is cheaper!! They are VERY picky dogs, and we finally found some food they like. Just dont feed them off of your plate. They eat way too much that way and get very fat!

penchief
03-07-2007, 07:23 PM
Particularly for a lab?

What about a beagle?

Whatever they're eating when they're hungry.