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View Full Version : Question about our nations educational system.


wutamess
02-28-2007, 11:23 AM
I'm at work debating our educational system with a co-worker. She constantly shows me stat after stat about how we're educationally inferior to other countries and how we're near the bottom of all developed countries.

Anyhow, I insist on telling her that the stats are jaded because, for example: It's easy to say that KCMO school district students rank 3rd in the world as far as education goes. I'm willing to bet that lots of major public school districts are rated the same. She's not getting that and insists that our education system is really bad because of her stats she's found on the internet.

I insist on where she tells me that college curriculum lags behind other countries. Of course, she can't.

I'm interested to know what some of your CONSTRUCTIVE opinions on here are. Please be nice as she'll be reading here and she's a very respectable woman.

Thanks.

JimNasium
02-28-2007, 11:24 AM
Antifreeze?

NewChief
02-28-2007, 11:26 AM
Here's a .pdf that shows both sides of the issue. It's coming from the idea that the educational "crisis" is a myth created by those with an axe to grind with public education. It then has two people present each side of the issue, one arguing the crisis is a myth. The other arguing that it's a reality:
http://www.heartland.org/pdf/21001c.pdf

htismaqe
02-28-2007, 11:32 AM
I don't know that our education system is "inferior" but it certainly is different.

In recent years, we've tended more and more to marginalize academics and the arts in favor of vocationally-oriented training, even in the colleges and universities.

wutamess
02-28-2007, 11:34 AM
She got most of her stats from here: http://mwhodges.home.att.net/new_96_report.htm

Phobia
02-28-2007, 11:36 AM
Oh, it's definitely inferior. The Chinese, for instance are vastly more educated and in general superiorly intelligent to American college graduates - and that's only after they leave grammar school.

wutamess
02-28-2007, 11:37 AM
proof? Or is that what they want you to believe?
I have no doubt that as a whole Chinese High School education system is probably better than ours because we're too concerned with treating everyone equal in our public schools and no child left behind. So advanced stuff isn't being taught because of my slow ass is in the class.

But College is a different ballgame they weed out people.

kepp
02-28-2007, 11:39 AM
proof?
GM vs. Honda :)

JimNasium
02-28-2007, 11:40 AM
I'll admit that I'm not educated on this particular problem but I am curious about how it is measured. Are Chinese or Belgium children measured using the same methodology? Are similar demographic groups tested, compiled, etc?

Phobia
02-28-2007, 11:40 AM
proof?

Kenneth Eng is all the proof I need.

Baconeater
02-28-2007, 11:41 AM
GM vs. Honda :)
:shake: Honda is Japanese, not Chinese.

JimNasium
02-28-2007, 11:41 AM
William Hung is all the proof I need.
FYP

crazycoffey
02-28-2007, 11:42 AM
Get to work and stop screwing around on this site


-your boss.

phisherman
02-28-2007, 11:46 AM
if you read it on the internet, then you know it's true

bp

htismaqe
02-28-2007, 11:46 AM
proof? Or is that what they want you to believe?
I have no doubt that as a whole Chinese High School education system is probably better than ours because we're too concerned with treating everyone equal in our public schools and no child left behind. So advanced stuff isn't being taught because of my slow ass is in the class.

But College is a different ballgame they weed out people.

I think today's colleges and universities, for the most part, are an extension of the public school system.

As a general rule, they are turning out good little corporate robots.

jspchief
02-28-2007, 11:48 AM
Want proof?

Look at the population of MIT.

wutamess
02-28-2007, 11:50 AM
I think today's colleges and universities, for the most part, are an extension of the public school system.

As a general rule, they are turning out good little corporate robots.

Could be the case until you get into graduate studies in the technological field. It becomes much more complex then.

dirk digler
02-28-2007, 11:54 AM
I think today's colleges and universities, for the most part, are an extension of the public school system.

As a general rule, they are turning out good little corporate robots.

Yep. College was alot easier than HS or grade school.

JimNasium
02-28-2007, 11:55 AM
Yep. College was alot easier than HS or grade school.
Graduate school was the easiest to make A's in.

Cochise
02-28-2007, 11:56 AM
I that we educate to produce diplomas and keep students moving through the system at a steady pace and not to produce knowledge.

cdcox
02-28-2007, 11:57 AM
I've heard lots of stories about how the Chinese spend much more time and advance much faster in math than US students do. But by the time I see them in graduate engineering courses, their math skills are not appreciably better than US graduate students. Maybe their average HS student is better than the average US student, but once you get to people who are really using math to make a living, I don't see much differnce.

American society generally yields more creative people.

htismaqe
02-28-2007, 11:58 AM
Could be the case until you get into graduate studies in the technological field. It becomes much more complex then.

One needs to look at the cross-section of majors, particularly in graduate studies.

There are far more business and communications majors than ever before, and I read somewhere that the MBA is the most-persued graduate degree by almost 2:1.

Phobia
02-28-2007, 11:59 AM
I that we educate to produce diplomas and keep students moving through the system at a steady pace and not to produce knowledge.

That's a pretty jaded and extreme view, isn't it? I think there is an element of truth there but I'm equally certain a great deal of knowledge is being imparted. It's not like kids are showing up for social club 7 hours a day.

recxjake
02-28-2007, 12:01 PM
College is easy.... the business curve at Iowa is 30% A, 40% B, 20%C, 5% D, 5% F....

The bottom 10% are people that forgot to drop the class or somthing stupid like that.

If anything is hard, someone just bitches about and they make it easier, or give extra points out.

They give extra credit out like crazy... for instance I'm going to an entrepreurial meeting at Drake this Friday. I get 3% e.c in one class and another 2% in another just for going. They add the e.c. in after the curve!

JBucc
02-28-2007, 12:03 PM
One thing I've noticed about Asian people is, amazingly, they're louder than Black people. I found that funny because at least when I think of Asian kids I think of smart little quiet guys. I bet they all have really huge dongers too.

jidar
02-28-2007, 12:09 PM
I believe it.

Anectdotal evidence being what it is..

When I was in highschool in Kansas in the early to mid 90s I remember you only had to do 2 years of math to graduate, which I thought was odd. Then I recall that they made 2 math courses called "Consumer Math 1 and 2", these were a complete joke. The extent of what they taught you was how to add and subtract with money, and there was nothing in there more complicated than long division. It was generally known that the only reason these courses existed was so that all of the kids who were bad at math could get the math credits they needed to graduate.

If you ask me, that's pretty ****ing pathetic.

Phobia
02-28-2007, 12:15 PM
I believe it.

Anectdotal evidence being what it is..

When I was in highschool in Kansas in the early to mid 90s I remember you only had to do 2 years of math to graduate, which I thought was odd. Then I recall that they made 2 math courses called "Consumer Math 1 and 2", these were a complete joke. The extent of what they taught you was how to add and subtract with money, and there was nothing in there more complicated than long division. It was generally known that the only reason these courses existed was so that all of the kids who were bad at math could get the math credits they needed to graduate.

If you ask me, that's pretty ****ing pathetic.

On the Missouri side they have similar courses called Consumer Meth 1 and 2.

Cochise
02-28-2007, 12:17 PM
That's a pretty jaded and extreme view, isn't it? I think there is an element of truth there but I'm equally certain a great deal of knowledge is being imparted. It's not like kids are showing up for social club 7 hours a day.

I don't mean totally oriented toward that, I mean too much.

I am remembering my high school experience in the late 90s. It seemed to me like the whole system was designed to get everyone to just meet the minimum requirements and not really to challenge students, to get 100% of each of their varying levels of potential.

I had decent grades in high school, but I didn't put forth much effort because I was always bored. Why was I always bored? Because the teacher has to concentrate on passing everyone. The class moves at the speed of the slowest student.

In college things move more quickly. Maybe a different environment, maybe that bottom segment is not there anymore. The teachers require more of you and necessity is the mother, so to speak.

I'm working on my MBA right now, and I think I learned more in the first class I took for it than I did in any other class in my entire life. It was also the most reading and the most writing I have ever done for a class. The most work, period.

I know a friend of mine who teaches elementary school is afraid to give students work and responsibility because parents come in and complain to her about it or complain to her boss. Their kids have too many things to do to be worried about school. So it's on parents too.

I don't know. I think things move too slowly and students aren't challenged.

wutamess
02-28-2007, 12:47 PM
I've heard lots of stories about how the Chinese spend much more time and advance much faster in math than US students do. But by the time I see them in graduate engineering courses, their math skills are not appreciably better than US graduate students. Maybe their average HS student is better than the average US student, but once you get to people who are really using math to make a living, I don't see much difference.

American society generally yields more creative people.

This is exactly what I'm thinking...
I saw the shit my wife had to put up with to go for her PHD in Bio-Chemistry @ Purdue. (She didn't finish by the way). That was some hard shit and I'd put that curriculum against any other cultures curriculum pertaining to the same subject.

Business/MBA is the same as a basket weaving degree... It's one of those degrees that's probably the easiest to obtain as a graduate student that really means something.

They may learn it faster but if it takes us a couple of years later, that doesn't necessarily make them "smarter" and us "inferior".

Hell... The only math class I've ever gotten less than a B in was Discrete Mathematics(D - math was my favorite subject) and I received A's & B's in all math classes up until I stopped with Calculus II.

SithCeNtZ
02-28-2007, 12:53 PM
I don't mean totally oriented toward that, I mean too much.

I am remembering my high school experience in the late 90s. It seemed to me like the whole system was designed to get everyone to just meet the minimum requirements and not really to challenge students, to get 100% of each of their varying levels of potential.

I had decent grades in high school, but I didn't put forth much effort because I was always bored. Why was I always bored? Because the teacher has to concentrate on passing everyone. The class moves at the speed of the slowest student.

In college things move more quickly. Maybe a different environment, maybe that bottom segment is not there anymore. The teachers require more of you and necessity is the mother, so to speak.

I don't know. I think things move too slowly and students aren't challenged.

Exactly. High school now is more about socially adjusting and becoming an adult rather than what you actually learn in High School. It was more like a 7 hour social club than a place to learn. We would move really slowly and in most of my classes we really only worked about half of the school year. The other half was dedicated to watching videos or taking weeks at a time for a project that could be completed in 2 days.

Another thing the state did(Indiana) was make it so that all High Schoolers had to pass a test to get your diploma. I guess they thought this would be a good way to make sure kid's were not just getting passed through the system on their way to getting their degree. What they didn't tell anyone is that the test was so easy it would be nearly impossible to fail. One question was, and I will never forget it: How many sides does a triangle have? People seem validated that 99.7% of the kids pass it and that shows we are doing something right, when in reality it really isn't a good system at all.

Cochise
02-28-2007, 12:59 PM
Another thing the state did(Indiana) was make it so that all High Schoolers had to past a test to get your diploma. I guess they thought this would be a good way to make sure kid's were not just getting passed through the system on their way to getting their degree. What they didn't tell anyone is that the test was so easy it would be nearly impossible to fail. One question was, and I will never forget it: How many sides does a triangle have? People seem validated that 99.7% of the kids pass it and that shows we are doing something right, when in reality it really isn't a good system at all.

We had standardized tests every year in MO too. Either it's ridiculously easy, or you end up with teachers just teaching for that test all year long. The objective changes from making sure everyone passes that class to making sure everyone passes that test. It's not any better. And even then... the speed of the slowest student.

tiptap
02-28-2007, 01:07 PM
The US educational system seems to have plenty of applicants for college and graduate study from abroad. There must be some level of competence comparatively to overseas training.

As far as elementary and high school level, the US tests everyone and the combined scores are used for comparison while many countries will have divided students early on for paths and only those chosen to pursue higher education are the pool that get tested for comparison. This carries over in that US higher education institutions do not restrict entry from older/newly motivated students. A practice not found overseas and a boon for America.

It should also be noted that there have been recent studies which show the difference in proformance between Blacks and Whites overall or from Girls compared to Boys on Math, can be halfed simply by addressing the assertion that this is normal. That is if the students have an expectation that they can do well half the problem can be solved. The other half is a matter of how early and how good is the instruction and support.

wutamess
02-28-2007, 01:15 PM
The US educational system seems to have plenty of applicants for college and graduate study from abroad. There must be some level of competence comparatively to overseas training.

As far as elementary and high school level, the US tests everyone and the combined scores are used for comparison while many countries will have divided students early on for paths and only those chosen to pursue higher education are the pool that get tested for comparison.

This is what I tried to make her see.

Simplex3
02-28-2007, 02:23 PM
...But College is a different ballgame they weed out people.
ROFL

Oh, wait, you actually believe that s**t? Some of the dumbest mother-f**kers I know are college graduates.

Cochise
02-28-2007, 02:29 PM
ROFL

Oh, wait, you actually believe that s**t? Some of the dumbest mother-f**kers I know are college graduates.

College does weed out people. It weeds out a lot of the people who didn't want to be there in high school. Eventually it weeds out a lot of people. By the end of my time at Northwest, I could name dozens of people who had dropped out. For whatever reason, they were weeded out. They were only there to party, they didn't have the study habits, just plain weren't college material, whatever the reason.

By the time I reached the 400 courses, most of the people there were somewhat studious and trying to learn. They at least were not there because someone else was making them.

Simplex3
02-28-2007, 02:32 PM
College does weed out people. It weeds out a lot of the people who didn't want to be there in high school. Eventually it weeds out a lot of people. By the end of my time at Northwest, I could name dozens of people who had dropped out. For whatever reason, they were weeded out.

By the time I reached the 400 courses, most of the people there were somewhat studious and trying to learn. They at least were not there because someone else was making them.
I believe that mandatory education at all levels is stupid.

Of the students who got "weeded out" by the college, how many of them went of their own volition? I'll bet it was 90%+. You would have to be a complete f**kup for a college to stop taking your money.

Simplex3
02-28-2007, 02:34 PM
The real question about our educational system isn't the quality, it's why does it cost so f**king much.

wutamess
02-28-2007, 02:43 PM
The real question about our educational system isn't the quality, it's why does it cost so f**king much.

Please tell me you aren't serious?
~ About all of your comments.

I've known some dumb college graduates too... But I'm talking about technical college graduates. Not P.E. Communications, etc majors.

Simplex3
02-28-2007, 04:38 PM
Please tell me you aren't serious?
~ About all of your comments.

I've known some dumb college graduates too... But I'm talking about technical college graduates. Not P.E. Communications, etc majors.
Dude, the degree they have is irrelevant. Some of the dumbest motherf**kers I've ever met have some of the most college from the most prestigious places.

It's just about a guarantee that if I get a butchered, half baked, retarded ass email from a work connection that person has at least a 4 year degree. Recently I've been doing work with a lot of foreigners and I can tell you that they are generally more lucid and (despite the language barriers) get things faster.

Pitt Gorilla
02-28-2007, 04:44 PM
You would have to be a complete f**kup for a college to stop taking your money.That is simply not true (in many cases). If you don't make a certain GPA, you are put on probation and cannot attend. You have to go to a juco to improve your academic standing before applying again.

Guru
02-28-2007, 06:23 PM
Oh, it's definitely inferior. The Chinese, for instance are vastly more educated and in general superiorly intelligent to American college graduates - and that's only after they leave grammar school.
Well, they also cram education down your throat and limit how many kids you can have. More like the "no-fun" society.