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jspchief
03-04-2007, 09:36 AM
I understand the limited options out there, and the limited options in the draft.

But depending on his contract, I would have gone Svitek and a kid that we might have been able to pick up in the second or third round in the draft.

Like most have said, we couldn't get any worse than Black.

But again, if his contract isn't a cap issue, then I have no problem with it.I'm just not as willing to "wing it" at the left tackle position in the interest of pursuing an unrealisitic fountain of youth for this team. The left tackle doesn't operate in a vacuum. His play has a direct effect on both the running and passing games as we all saw with the loss of Roaf.

You can't just magically get younger with no real emphasis on quality in addition to youth. To expect a bunch of young kids to make this team better simply because they are young is setting yourself up for failure.

We got the what was probably the best combination of experience and affordability on the market. I can't find any reason to be down on this signing at this point.

milkman
03-04-2007, 09:56 AM
I'm just not as willing to "wing it" at the left tackle position in the interest of pursuing an unrealisitic fountain of youth for this team. The left tackle doesn't operate in a vacuum. His play has a direct effect on both the running and passing games as we all saw with the loss of Roaf.

You can't just magically get younger with no real emphasis on quality in addition to youth. To expect a bunch of young kids to make this team better simply because they are young is setting yourself up for failure.

We got the what was probably the best combination of experience and affordability on the market. I can't find any reason to be down on this signing at this point.

The problem here is that we are debating an aspect of this signing that we don't know anything about, the contract.

We are debating "What ifs".

We are both on the same page in regards to McIntosh the player.

I also understand that you don't get better simply by getting younger, and that you have to focus on quality as well.

All I'm saying is that I just hope that McIntosh's contract doesn't tie us up to him beyond the time that he's useful.

And Parker suggested the possibilty of Joe Staley falling into the third round to us.

While I find that difficult to believe, I would certainly jump on that pick and hope he can develop and be rady by '08, which would make McIntosh a depth type player.

htismaqe
03-04-2007, 10:12 AM
EVERY contract nowadays, for every "name" free agent on every team, ties up cap space beyond the effective "life" of the player. It's a fact of life. And given that the NFL just continues to get richer, I'm beginning to see an era where the "cap killer" contract just no longer exists.

Adept Havelock
03-04-2007, 10:34 AM
duct tape is a helluva lot better than scotch tape...

And Scotch is a helluva lot better than Duck. ;)

I'm glad to see this signing. I prefer it to dropping a fortune on L. Davis, that's for sure.

Brock
03-04-2007, 10:52 AM
And Scotch is a helluva lot better than Duck. ;)

I'm glad to see this signing. I prefer it to dropping a fortune on L. Davis, that's for sure.

It's a 6 year cap buster, OMGZZ

Cave Johnson
03-04-2007, 11:14 AM
Really..look at Thomas's deal with the Pats..cheap.

I don't quite know what to make of an NFL when G's are signed to bigger contracts that Adalius Thomas.

Frankly, it's a little puzzling what the anti-homers are bitching at with this signing. The suggestions that CP gave him a 7 year, 49M contract are patently riducolus. Brown wasn't going to slip down to 23, and the rest of the draft class at T is mediocre. We couldn't continue to let Green/Huard/Croyle/Whomever get killed from their blindside. Any rookie LT not named Marcus McNeill would likely have given up a ton of sacks.

"With a thin group of tackles in the free agent market -- as well as a mediocre draft class at the position -- the Dolphins could instead look to maintain cohesiveness by bringing back McIntosh, a seven-year pro, to once again compete with L.J. Shelton for the starting job."

http://72.14.253.104/search?q=cache:j94J7Gc6KYwJ:www.miami.com/mld/miamiherald/sports/football/16773511.htm+Miami+contacts+LT+McIntosh&hl=en&ct=clnk&cd=1&gl=us

bringbackmarty
03-04-2007, 11:27 AM
We have needs all over. But if we are insisting on a running Marty ball type offense then it is the RT that is more important to the running game. If you can run to the LT that is dividends but what you want most is protection for the blind side of a passing focus offense. Additionally you want the QB to be able to fake well ala Deberg and unfortunately Green is not that QB. Finally this is the Dallas approach as well and as such it demands a big center that can take on defensive NT. I loved the game played by the 2003 Chiefs. That line was in decline with the lost of Tait but was still able to run to the Left because of Roaf.

Now the focus is on the defense. This defense needs a real DT presence, now. It is about personnel on that side ascending. Offenses have the advantage. This reign in KC believes that defensive play makes the difference. It is harder to have consistent effect but it makes the difference by this group of coaches.

This isn't a bad signing. It is potentially a good signing if the TE and H-backs don't have to help with pass protection EVERY PLAY. They could be freed up to catch short routes when teams blitz or 7 men in the box on potential running plays and you can audible.

It reflects the philosophy of the coaches. The question is if this personnel can make it work. I'm game.

I think this is an excellent post, and right on the money imo.
We probably wont do anything else on offense between now and the draft, although I wish we would address center, and WR.

FringeNC
03-04-2007, 12:17 PM
ESPN sleeper free agents:

"In seven seasons, McIntosh has registered 80 starts and lined up at every position except center. He's got better feet than most people think, and can start at left tackle in a pinch for a team seeking a veteran presence at the position."

Ummm...sounds exactly like Jordan Black to me.

RedThat
03-04-2007, 12:18 PM
Not too crazy about this signing at all.

McIntosh sucked with SD. And he was ok with Miami.

He'll have his bad games, and some games he'll be ok. I don't think it is much of an upgrade, but we needed someone I guess?

*The market for tackles was pretty thin this year. Personally, I think we would've been better off looking for one in the draft.

Bowser
03-04-2007, 12:20 PM
It's amusing to see how fans are never happy, no matter what happens.

I would love to see how big of a crater in the ground there would have been if we re-signed Black to a six year deal.

The Bad Guy
03-04-2007, 12:22 PM
ESPN sleeper free agents:

"In seven seasons, McIntosh has registered 80 starts and lined up at every position except center. He's got better feet than most people think, and can start at left tackle in a pinch for a team seeking a veteran presence at the position."

Ummm...sounds exactly like Jordan Black to me.

So every player who has moved around on the line is Jordan Black?

Did he invent the wheel too?

FringeNC
03-04-2007, 12:25 PM
So every player who has moved around on the line is Jordan Black?

Did he invent the wheel too?

Versatile, can play LT IN A PINCH. Isn't that Jordan Black, a decent, versatile O-lineman is just isn't quick enough to play LT full-time?

Seriously, isn't that exactly how a scouting report of Jordan Black would read?

RedThat
03-04-2007, 12:25 PM
So every player who has moved around on the line is Jordan Black?

Did he invent the wheel too?

Yes he did, but it may take him to I-65 :p

milkman
03-04-2007, 12:27 PM
Yes he did, but it may take him to I-65 :p

No, actually he didn't.

If he had, he might have a couple of quicker ones that allow him to play tackle at a higher level than suck.

jiveturkey
03-04-2007, 12:30 PM
*The market for tackles was pretty thin this year. Personally, I think we would've been better off looking for one in the draft.I take it that you haven't been following the draft.

milkman
03-04-2007, 12:32 PM
I take it that you haven't been following the draft.

I just think some people have difficulty with the concept of "Reach".

Short Leash Hootie
03-04-2007, 12:34 PM
I want to feel milkman deep inside of me.

FringeNC
03-04-2007, 12:35 PM
Does this mean Black is gone? I'd actually like to keep Black, and put him at RG. I guess is depends on anyone offering Black LT money.

milkman
03-04-2007, 12:41 PM
I want to feel milkman deep inside of me.

:spock:

jspchief
03-04-2007, 12:42 PM
Ummm...sounds exactly like Jordan Black to me.Who do you think our LT should be?

siberian khatru
03-04-2007, 12:42 PM
Does this mean Black is gone? I'd actually like to keep Black, and put him at RG. I guess is depends on anyone offering Black LT money.

Me too. I was hoping that signing McIntosh gave the Chiefs leverage to re-sign Black at G money, and that it didn't mean that they were washing their hands of Black completely.

FringeNC
03-04-2007, 12:59 PM
Who do you think our LT should be?

I think Jordan Black sucks at LT, just like we all do. My guess, though, is that Jordan Black ranks higher than this guy on most free-agent lists.

If it were me, I'd probably play Svitek at LT, and hope he develops.

splatbass
03-04-2007, 01:13 PM
The key here is A) What role he was brought in to play, and B) Do his skills match up with the offensive system and blocking schemes we are going to employ?

He could very well be a bad signing, or work out well for what we want to do...

None of us know the answer to those questions, but many are still able to pronounce this a bad deal. I wish I could see the future like some of these guys.

Why aren't these brilliant football analysts working in an NFL front office somewhere? They all know more that the people that do work in the front offices, just ask them.

Skip Towne
03-04-2007, 01:17 PM
None of us know the answer to those questions, but many are still able to pronounce this a bad deal. I wish I could see the future like some of these guys.

Why aren't these brilliant football analysts working in an NFL front office somewhere? They all know more that the people that do work in the front offices, just ask them.
I see you have met some of our geniouses.

jspchief
03-04-2007, 01:20 PM
I think Jordan Black sucks at LT, just like we all do. My guess, though, is that Jordan Black ranks higher than this guy on most free-agent lists.

If it were me, I'd probably play Svitek at LT, and hope he develops.McIntosh has been #2 on every OT list I've seen.

The only way Black is listed ahead of him is if the list is arranged alphabetically.

At least you admit you're just guessing though.

splatbass
03-04-2007, 01:22 PM
I see you have met some of our geniouses.

Yup.

milkman
03-04-2007, 01:23 PM
Why aren't these brilliant football analysts working in an NFL front office somewhere? They all know more that the people that do work in the front offices, just ask them.

If a person can't discuss his opinion here, then what the hell is the point of these football discussion boards?

And what the hell is your dumbass doing here?

FringeNC
03-04-2007, 01:27 PM
McIntosh has been #2 on every OT list I've seen.

The only way Black is listed ahead of him is if the list is arranged alphabetically.

At least you admit you're just guessing though.

Well...I just looked at 3 sites quickly. 1 for Black, 1 for McIntosh, and one were they are both listed as "others".

Sporting News rankings:

#

Offensive tackles
1. Leonard Davis, LT, Cardinals
2. Jon Stinchcomb, RT, Saints (re-signed)
3. Marc Colombo, RT, Cowboys
4. Anthony Clement, RT, Jets
5. Jordan Black, LT, Chiefs
# Full OT free-agent list

Good pass-protecting left tackles don't usually make it to the free-agent market. Even though there isn't much help here for strong blindside protection, there are some big players who can boost off-tackle/perimeter teams' running games. Davis is the biggest and best tackle on the list, but buyers must beware because he never lived up to expectations in Arizona and he wants big bucks. Stinchcomb, coming off a breakthrough season in which he started every game for New Orleans, figures to be a better value.

The Bad Guy
03-04-2007, 01:31 PM
Well...I just looked at 3 sites quickly. 1 for Black, 1 for McIntosh, and one were they are both listed as "others".

Sporting News rankings:

#

Offensive tackles
1. Leonard Davis, LT, Cardinals
2. Jon Stinchcomb, RT, Saints (re-signed)
3. Marc Colombo, RT, Cowboys
4. Anthony Clement, RT, Jets
5. Jordan Black, LT, Chiefs
# Full OT free-agent list

Good pass-protecting left tackles don't usually make it to the free-agent market. Even though there isn't much help here for strong blindside protection, there are some big players who can boost off-tackle/perimeter teams' running games. Davis is the biggest and best tackle on the list, but buyers must beware because he never lived up to expectations in Arizona and he wants big bucks. Stinchcomb, coming off a breakthrough season in which he started every game for New Orleans, figures to be a better value.

The Sporting News is about one of the worst evaluators I have ever seen.

They have Brady Quinn falling to 23 in their latest mock draft and even had us drafting Brandon Browner, a guy the Broncos signed as undrafted FA, as our first rounder either last year or the year before.

FringeNC
03-04-2007, 01:46 PM
The Sporting News is about one of the worst evaluators I have ever seen.

They have Brady Quinn falling to 23 in their latest mock draft and even had us drafting Brandon Browner, a guy the Broncos signed as undrafted FA, as our first rounder either last year or the year before.

Yeah, whatever. Not going to get into a debate about who the best talent evaluating publications are.

The team signing Jordan Black will read some good scouting reports and press clippings about him, too.

Signing free-agents isn't necessarily a good thing. Other teams are bidding on these guys, too. We bid the highest. Are we smarter than other teams, or...

jspchief
03-04-2007, 01:52 PM
Yeah, whatever. Not going to get into a debate about who the best talent evaluating publications are.

The team signing Jordan Black will read some good scouting reports and press clippings about him, too.

Signing free-agents isn't necessarily a good thing. Other teams are bidding on these guys, too. We bid the highest. Are we smarter than other teams, or...We had to sign someone. McIntosh has about 5x the experience of Black, and about 10x the experience of anyone on our roster.

As much as you bitch about our offensive drop-off, I expect you'd be the last person that wanted to go into the year with no one at LT.

JohnnyV13
03-04-2007, 02:16 PM
This has nothing to do with Herman ****ing Edwards.

This is only about Mike Solari.

I am only going by memory here, but I can't think of one O-Lineman that Solari actually developed.

I think he's pretty damn good when it comes to scheming for run blocking.

I just don't know that he is a good teacher.



Uh....John Tait and Brian Waters.

penchief
03-04-2007, 03:42 PM
LOL......Brock thinks Jared Allen is an elite defensive end, he's not a homer?

I think Brock is right. When you look at solo tackles and forced fumbles (and not just sacks), which DE in the league was better last year?

FringeNC
03-04-2007, 03:50 PM
We had to sign someone. McIntosh has about 5x the experience of Black, and about 10x the experience of anyone on our roster.

As much as you bitch about our offensive drop-off, I expect you'd be the last person that wanted to go into the year with no one at LT.

Our offensive woes run much deeper than a sub-par left tackle. Herm Edwards offensive philosophy is play-not-to-lose. And our pass protection problems were more than just Black, although he was bad. Personally, I think our pass protection will suck as long as LJ is our running back. He's terrible in that regard.

penchief
03-04-2007, 03:56 PM
Our offensive woes run much deeper than a sub-par left tackle. Herm Edwards offensive philosophy is play-not-to-lose. And our pass protection problems were more than just Black, although he was bad. Personally, I think our pass protection will suck as long as LJ is our running back. He's terrible in that regard.

You act as if the running back is the one and only key to pass protection. While it does help, that doesn't mean that Barry Sanders wasn't great because he couldn't block like Priest Holmes.

On the other hand, Priest Holmes is no Larry Johnson when it comes to the unique set of skills that LJ brings to running the ball. JMO.

splatbass
03-04-2007, 04:01 PM
If a person can't discuss his opinion here, then what the hell is the point of these football discussion boards?

And what the hell is your dumbass doing here?

You are free to discuss your opinion here - no matter how ignorant it is - but we are also free to make fun of you when you do post something stupid and uninformed. Isn't freedom of speech cool?.

Mecca
03-04-2007, 04:02 PM
I think Brock is right. When you look at solo tackles and forced fumbles (and not just sacks), which DE in the league was better last year?

A defensive end won defensive player of the year.........

penchief
03-04-2007, 04:22 PM
A defensive end won defensive player of the year.........

And what do you consider elite? Just the top player at his position? Or maybe the top three or four?

If I'm not mistaken, the thing that separated Jason Taylor from the others was his all-around game (solo tackles, forced fumbles, and fumble recoveries in addition to the sacks). Basically, the same things that make Allen an elite all round DE.

milkman
03-04-2007, 04:27 PM
Uh....John Tait and Brian Waters.

Yeah, ok.

I guess you didn't read any of the other posts on this subject.

bringbackmarty
03-04-2007, 04:28 PM
I tell you what, he looks stronger than black. especially up top. he was picked earlier in the draft and he looks uncannily like roaf. With solari up his ass, he will start @ LT for us and do pretty good in this offense.

Brock
03-04-2007, 04:29 PM
And what do you consider elite? Just the top player at his position? Or maybe the top three or four?

If I'm not mistaken, the thing that separated Jason Taylor from the others was his all-around game (solo tackles, forced fumbles, and fumble recoveries in addition to the sacks). Basically, the same things that make Allen an elite all round DE.

Forget it, any player who plays for KC is shit as far as mecca is concerned.

Amnorix
03-04-2007, 04:30 PM
yeah, I mean, he started 41 of 48 games. If he was that inadequate, he wouldn't have lasted.

You haven't seen some of these Dolphins O Lines over the last few years. One of those years, mmm....2004 maybe? they seriously had the absolute worst offensive line I've ever seen fielded by an NFL team. They were a double threat -- couldn't run and couldn't protect the QB.

I do think the pathetic OLine up there contributed to Ricky Williams "retirement" fiasco, along with his drug situation of course.

I've seen McIntosh and he's not going to remind you guys of any of the studs you've had on OLine the last few years, let me say that.

milkman
03-04-2007, 04:30 PM
You are free to discuss your opinion here - no matter how ignorant it is - but we are also free to make fun of you when you do post something stupid and uninformed. Isn't freedom of speech cool?.

In other words, you are to ****ing stupid to form your own opinion, so whatever Kool-Aid the Chiefs are serving must be right.

Count Alex's Losses
03-04-2007, 04:30 PM
I tell you what, he looks stronger than black, especially up top, he was picked earlier in the draft, and he looks a little like roaf. With solari up his ass, he will start @ LT for us, and do pretty good in this offense.

He looks ALOT like Roaf. I couldn't ignore how similar his body looked. I wonder if he walks with a limp? :hmmm:

bringbackmarty
03-04-2007, 04:32 PM
prolly so, but with Damion it's cause of his 20 inch dong, not cause his knees are bad, yet.

bringbackmarty
03-04-2007, 04:33 PM
He also as previosly stated does not take any shit from his bitch.

penchief
03-04-2007, 04:45 PM
You haven't seen some of these Dolphins O Lines over the last few years. One of those years, mmm....2004 maybe? they seriously had the absolute worst offensive line I've ever seen fielded by an NFL team. They were a double threat -- couldn't run and couldn't protect the QB.

I do think the pathetic OLine up there contributed to Ricky Williams "retirement" fiasco, along with his drug situation of course.

I've seen McIntosh and he's not going to remind you guys of any of the studs you've had on OLine the last few years, let me say that.

That's why I asked the question I did. So, what you're suggesting is that the statistics of a starting LT who protected the quarterback's blindside as a member of a pitiful OL, and while starting in all 16 games and allowing only four sacks and committing only one holding penalty....that those statistics are skewed because opposing defenses attacked the other four positions along the OL?

I don't doubt that as a possibility but I'm only looking for the truth in your comments. Was the OLine in Miami so bad that it made his stats look better than they really were? And I'm only asking because I don't know. I've never heard of the guy before yesterday. It's just that those stats seem pretty damn good to me.

In fact, in 2005 Willie Roaf allowed the same number of sacks while having two more holding penalties than McIntosh. And he played alongside superior linemates. And he only played in 10 games. What does that say about Roaf if McIntosh is so bad?

I guess I'm just trying to determine if the criticisms are legitimate or not.

Mecca
03-04-2007, 05:02 PM
And what do you consider elite? Just the top player at his position? Or maybe the top three or four?

If I'm not mistaken, the thing that separated Jason Taylor from the others was his all-around game (solo tackles, forced fumbles, and fumble recoveries in addition to the sacks). Basically, the same things that make Allen an elite all round DE.

Top 3-5.....is elite.

Allen has never made a Pro Bowl, I don't think he's a top 5 end. I think he's in that next tier that goes along with guys like Aaron Schobel. Does that mean I think he sucks? No because I think those are still very good players I just don't think he's the end all be all of ends some people tend to act like he is.

Just because he isn't Taylor or Peppers or Freeney doesn't mean I think he sucks.....I think that's where some people misinterpret me. There is a difference in being very good and being elite.

penchief
03-04-2007, 05:10 PM
Top 3-5.....is elite.

Allen has never made a Pro Bowl, I don't think he's a top 5 end. I think he's in that next tier that goes along with guys like Aaron Schobel. Does that mean I think he sucks? No because I think those are still very good players I just don't think he's the end all be all of ends some people tend to act like he is.

Just because he isn't Taylor or Peppers or Freeney doesn't mean I think he sucks.....I think that's where some people misinterpret me. There is a difference in being very good and being elite.

His recognition has nothing to do with his impact. When looking at the actual impact he has during games combined with his elite-like all-around statistical numbers, I'd say that he easily ranks in the top 5. But that's just my opinion. He's our one consistent playmaker on a bad defense.

He'll pay for his indiscretions off the field when it comes to his contract this year, but there isn't a team in the league that doesn't want a guy like that playing all four downs.

Mecca
03-04-2007, 05:18 PM
Like I said he's very good......his sack totals are 9/11/7.5 to be elite he needs a 15 year, he needs to make a pro bowl.

Being the best player on the Chiefs defense doesn't make him elite.....the Chiefs as a unit aren't an elite defense. The fact that he's become a good all around player is what puts him in the 2nd tier because his sack totals really aren't even 2nd tier level....

penchief
03-04-2007, 05:25 PM
Like I said he's very good......his sack totals are 9/11/7.5 to be elite he needs a 15 year, he needs to make a pro bowl.

Being the best player on the Chiefs defense doesn't make him elite.....the Chiefs as a unit aren't an elite defense. The fact that he's become a good all around player is what puts him in the 2nd tier because his sack totals really aren't even 2nd tier level....

I never said that being the best player on the Chiefs defense makes him elite, so don't latch onto that as the core of your argument. I said that his statistics make him elite. His impact during a game makes him elite. The two together make it a closed case, IMO.

The sacks don't tell the full picture. Who knows what Allen would do on a team that has DTs that could collapse the pocket. I dare say he'd reach that 15 sack total easily. When the totality of his defensive stats is taken into account, I believe that only Merriman and Taylor rival his effectiveness as an every down DE. After that, considering his actual impact during the game only makes it more obvious, IMO.

To me, all that makes him elite player at his position.

Mecca
03-04-2007, 05:26 PM
I never said that being the best player on the Chiefs defense makes him elite, so don't latch onto that as the core of your argument. I said that his statistics make him elite. His impact during a game makes him elite. The two together make it a closed case, IMO.

The sacks don't tell the full picture. Who knows what Allen would do on a team that has DTs that could collapse the pocket. I dare say he'd reach that 15 sack total easily. When the totality of his defensive stats is taken into account, I believe that only Merriman and Taylor rival his effectiveness as an every down DE. After that, considering his actual impact during the game only makes it more obvious, IMO.

To me, all that makes him elite player at his position.

So you'd rather have Jared Allen then Julius Peppers......

penchief
03-04-2007, 05:27 PM
So you'd rather have Jared Allen then Julius Peppers......

At this point, yes.

jspchief
03-04-2007, 05:28 PM
At this point, yes.And with that statement you've removed any credibility your argument might have had.

Mecca
03-04-2007, 05:28 PM
At this point, yes.

What kinda drugs did you do today because I'd like some.......

I hope no one else here thinks that way, otherwise it fully speaks to what I said about Jared Allen being heavily ovverated here.

penchief
03-04-2007, 05:29 PM
What kinda drugs did you do today because I'd like some.......

I hope no one else here thinks that way, otherwise it fully speaks to what I said about Jared Allen being heavily ovverated here.

I believe that Allen's best seasons are ahead of him. I don't think I can say that about Peppers.

Mecca
03-04-2007, 05:33 PM
When next year starts.......Peppers is 27 and Allen is 25 there isn't some major age gap here, and they aren't RB's that decline rapidly when they hit a few years in the league.

milkman
03-04-2007, 05:33 PM
I believe that Allen's best seasons are ahead of him. I don't think I can say that about Peppers.

LMAO

Peppers is headed into his sixth season.
He's just now hitting his prime years.

Mecca
03-04-2007, 05:35 PM
I just don't understand this........Jared Allen is a fine player, would start on basically every team. He's an upper echeleon player there is nothing wrong with that.

But trying to argue he's top 3 and better than Julius Peppers is just moronic.

penchief
03-04-2007, 05:49 PM
LMAO

Peppers is headed into his sixth season.
He's just now hitting his prime years.

Well, I knew that would get a reaction but I said what I thought. I think Allen needs to grow up a little but I also think he's only going to get better. I'm not sure Peppers hasn't plateaued.

In fact, here's last years stats:

Sacks:
Peppers 13.0
Allen 7.5

Tackles:
Allen 77
Peppers 57

Solo Tackles:
Allen 65
Peppers 48

Assists:
Allen 12
Peppers 9

Forced Fumbles:
Peppers 3
Allen 3

Fumble Recoveries:
Allen 6
Pepprs 2

Interceptions:
Allen 1
Peppers 0

If you combine forced fumbles with fumble recoveries, Allen has 9 and Peppers has 5. If you just go with the fumble recoveries, Allen has four more. Then add the interception and that's a five "change of possession" difference. Add that to his sacks and you have 12.5 game changing plays, only .5 behind Peppers. Beyond that, one could also argue that changes of possession have more impact than plays that result in a loss of yardage.

I don't dispute that Peppers is a darn good end. But if you would have me trade even up (contract, age, potential, injury history, etc.), I'll take my chances with Allen.

Chiefs Pantalones
03-04-2007, 06:07 PM
I just don't understand this........Jared Allen is a fine player, would start on basically every team. He's an upper echeleon player there is nothing wrong with that.

But trying to argue he's top 3 and better than Julius Peppers is just moronic.

I agree.

htismaqe
03-04-2007, 06:08 PM
Yeah, whatever. Not going to get into a debate about who the best talent evaluating publications are.

The team signing Jordan Black will read some good scouting reports and press clippings about him, too.

Signing free-agents isn't necessarily a good thing. Other teams are bidding on these guys, too. We bid the highest. Are we smarter than other teams, or...

Actually the only other team to offer him a contract was Miami. We were the 1st team he visited and he left with a contract.

htismaqe
03-04-2007, 06:10 PM
You haven't seen some of these Dolphins O Lines over the last few years. One of those years, mmm....2004 maybe? they seriously had the absolute worst offensive line I've ever seen fielded by an NFL team. They were a double threat -- couldn't run and couldn't protect the QB.

I do think the pathetic OLine up there contributed to Ricky Williams "retirement" fiasco, along with his drug situation of course.

I've seen McIntosh and he's not going to remind you guys of any of the studs you've had on OLine the last few years, let me say that.

He struggled in 2004, as did the entire Miami line. And since then, he's given up ONE THIRD the sacks Jordan Black has, in TWICE as many games.

milkman
03-04-2007, 06:21 PM
Well, I knew that would get a reaction but I said what I thought. I think Allen needs to grow up a little but I also think he's only going to get better. I'm not sure Peppers hasn't plateaued.

In fact, here's last years stats:

Sacks:
Peppers 13.0
Allen 7.5

Tackles:
Allen 77
Peppers 57

Solo Tackles:
Allen 65
Peppers 48

Assists:
Allen 12
Peppers 9

Forced Fumbles:
Peppers 3
Allen 3

Fumble Recoveries:
Allen 6
Pepprs 2

Interceptions:
Allen 1
Peppers 0

If you combine forced fumbles with fumble recoveries, Allen has 9 and Peppers has 5. If you just go with the fumble recoveries, Allen has four more. Then add the interception and that's a five "change of possession" difference. Add that to his sacks and you have 12.5 game changing plays, only .5 behind Peppers. Beyond that, one could also argue that changes of possession have more impact than plays that result in a loss of yardage.

I don't dispute that Peppers is a darn good end. But if you would have me trade even up (contract, age, potential, injury history, etc.), I'll take my chances with Allen.

Ther is little question that Allen is among the top DEs in the NFL right now, but he hasn't yet achieved the consistency of a Julius Peppers yet, who has been among the top DEs since he was a rookie.

And I think it's a bit of a stretch to suggest that Peppers has reached his plateau.

He's still young, and still has growth potential.

In a couple of years, Allen could very well be in the elite group that Peppers is.

He's just not there yet.

Cave Johnson
03-04-2007, 06:37 PM
I never said that being the best player on the Chiefs defense makes him elite, so don't latch onto that as the core of your argument. I said that his statistics make him elite. His impact during a game makes him elite. The two together make it a closed case, IMO.

The sacks don't tell the full picture. Who knows what Allen would do on a team that has DTs that could collapse the pocket. I dare say he'd reach that 15 sack total easily. When the totality of his defensive stats is taken into account, I believe that only Merriman and Taylor rival his effectiveness as an every down DE. After that, considering his actual impact during the game only makes it more obvious, IMO.

To me, all that makes him elite player at his position.

Thanks, Benedict Penchief. Now Allen's agent is going to read this and up his contract demands. Way to go.

go bowe
03-04-2007, 07:00 PM
Until we know what kind of money he got, there's no reason to complain about this move.

Was anybody complaining about signing Chris Terry? We just got another team's STARTING LT, and if it was CHEAP, it was worth it.

I don't care how bad he might be, NOBODY IN THE LEAGUE was worse than Jordan Black last season.

NOBODY.you know, i almost bought a jordan black chiefs jersey instead of bo...

whew...

KC56DJ
03-04-2007, 08:55 PM
"But trying to argue he's top 3 and better than Julius Peppers is just moronic."

Name two others, other than peppers that are better than him, ill give u will smith

an i think mcintosh will be a good move, with waters right next to him he will do just fine

milkman
03-04-2007, 09:38 PM
"But trying to argue he's top 3 and better than Julius Peppers is just moronic."

Name two others, other than peppers that are better than him, ill give u will smith

an i think mcintosh will be a good move, with waters right next to him he will do just fine

Real quick, just off the top of my head, Dwight Freeny and Michael Strahan.

Mecca
03-04-2007, 09:39 PM
Jason Taylor......

KC56DJ
03-04-2007, 09:41 PM
Real quick, just off the top of my head, Dwight Freeny and Michael Strahan.


I'll agree with strahan, but freeney is a one dimensional player who runs str8 up field an then turns an hopes his secondary is covering still, its how he gets all his sacks, people who play Ol know what to do with him an it showed this year, "if he wants to run up field let him jus shield him" famous quote from my coach my whole life i played, so i will agree with strahan but no way will i agree with freeney

HMc
03-04-2007, 09:58 PM
Dolphins signed this guy to a 6 year Deal in '04 then released him this time last year only to sign him again not long later to a one year deal.i don't get that.

TRR
03-04-2007, 10:00 PM
I've talked with and read a lot about McIntosh the last two days on Miami message boards. Say what you will, but Miami fans have obviously seen DMac play a lot more than we have. The low-down...

McIntosh is a punishing blocker in the running game, and solid in the passing game. Not Willie Roaf, but light years ahead of Jordan Black. Most Dolphins fans were sad to see DMac go. Most said he was an anchor on the left side, and they were a lot better with him at LT than they were with him at RG. They're not weeping about him leaving, but definitely would have rather seen him stay than go.

HMc
03-04-2007, 10:01 PM
Why does Derrick Burgess never get a mention when premier DEs is the topic?

KC56DJ
03-04-2007, 10:03 PM
Why does Derrick Burgess never get a mention when premier DEs is the topic?


good point, why does Kampmann not get any mention cuz i think fundamentally he is really good

Frankie
03-05-2007, 09:48 AM
I want to feel milkman deep inside of me.
:eek:

Brock
03-05-2007, 09:52 AM
Real quick, just off the top of my head, Dwight Freeny and Michael Strahan.

Strahan maybe 3 years ago.

Frankie
03-05-2007, 09:53 AM
Bottom line:


In a market that there's no "good" signing possible, an "OK" signing, in a position of need, is a "good" signing.


Now, back to your regular programming.

Iowanian
03-05-2007, 12:25 PM
I'm chiming in for the record that I think this was a decent signing.

he can play either Tackle position or Guard in a pinch. This helps the Chiefs fill a known hole,while waiting to see if they have to replace Black, Wiegeman and Shields.....thats 3 holes to fill potentially of 5.

This gives the Chiefs flexibility in the draft so as to not HAVE to take an OT in the first round, but if a good one is available, flexiblity on the Oline.

The Chiefs can't bring in enough Olinemen this year. the Only "known" on the Oline going into 2007 is Brian Waters at LG. That leaves unknowns at LT, OC, RG and RT.

Potential roster losses of Turley, Black, Wiegeman and Shields, and maybe Welbourne don't give the Chiefs many options BUT to shop for Oline.

Considering I assumed they'd settle for Mike Gandy....this is a nice surprise.

Frankie
03-05-2007, 12:44 PM
You haven't seen some of these Dolphins O Lines over the last few years. One of those years, mmm....2004 maybe? they seriously had the absolute worst offensive line I've ever seen fielded by an NFL team. They were a double threat -- couldn't run and couldn't protect the QB.

I do think the pathetic OLine up there contributed to Ricky Williams "retirement" fiasco, along with his drug situation of course.

I've seen McIntosh and he's not going to remind you guys of any of the studs you've had on OLine the last few years, let me say that.
even one weak link can turn a very good O-line into a bad one. We had a terrible O-line last year. That doesn't mean waters is a bad O-lineman. Your case against MacIntosh here is seriously flawed.

Frankie
03-05-2007, 12:48 PM
He looks ALOT like Roaf. I couldn't ignore how similar his body looked. I wonder if he walks with a limp? :hmmm:
If he does walk with a limp, we are Superbowl bound. PBJ