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View Full Version : outsider's perspecitve ~ Pass on Green


Mile High Mania
03-13-2001, 12:06 PM
Seriously... you'll give up too much for a 30 year old QB without that much starting experience. IMO, you really gain nothing by replacing Grbac with Green unless you bring in a stud RB and revamp the defense.

If you give up those picks and $$ for Green, then you can't get the stud RB or revamped defense.

Did anyone watch Baltimore last year? Mirror thier success... load up on defense through FA, spend the money there.

Draft a stud RB with your top pick, hell, package two picks and move up to ensure you get the RBOTF that you want. Then, bring in Dilfer.

Ravens and Chiefs have VERY similar weapons and styles on offense. Dilfer was effective, very effective in that offense and they let the defense roll.

Can KC have a defense with the level of talent or play of the 2000 Ravens? Maybe not, but to a degree they can be close.

In all honesty... I hope you guys give up the motherload for Green. :-)

Cannibal
03-13-2001, 12:12 PM
The Ravens O talent can't even compare the Chiefs.

The Chiefs have the better O-line, TE, FB and WR's. If we get Garner and Green we'll be one of the top Offenses in the league.

Gaz
03-13-2001, 12:14 PM
MHM-

I agree with you.

xoxo~
gaz
"me-tooing" a Broncos Homer; a sure sign of the Apocalypse.

Mile High Mania
03-13-2001, 12:16 PM
Hmmm... I'm gonna have to call you out on this one.

The main difference b/t the two offenses last year was the rushing game, the Ravens had a great attack with the rookie Jamal Lewis and KC only ran well against Denver. (I can admit that)

Grbac had better numbers b/c he had no other choice. Dilfer could not have put up those numbers last year in that offense.

I think the OLines, TEs and WRs are pretty similar for both teams. I don't think you can honestly make the statement that the Ravens' offense can't compare to KC.

Baby Lee
03-13-2001, 12:19 PM
If we get Garner and Green we'll be one of the top Offenses in the league.

If we stand pat on D, need we'll every inch of that O to sniff .500.


JC-Johnny
subtly increasing the rate of world-wide postmortem equine cruelty.

Wrasse
03-13-2001, 12:19 PM
You're pretty smart for a Bronco's fan :) hehe

I totally agree with you and, if Denver was in the same position, I'd be telling you the same thing and then secretly hoping that they gave up the picks. So, if we do give up the picks for Trent Green (what an appropriate last name because he sure will "cost" us a bunch!), you have every right to come here and kick me when I'm down...because I will be :(

Gaz
03-13-2001, 12:19 PM
If we get Garner and Green, we will have an Offense that is not as good as the Rams and a Defense that is not as good as the Rams.

"Second-rate Rams."

That is certainly not the target I want to shoot for.

xoxo~
gaz
has higher aspirations than Rams Lite.

Mile High Mania
03-13-2001, 12:21 PM
Damn... me and Gaz on the same page. Zoiks!

It kinda amazes me that everyone thinks replacing Grbac with Green is the cure for what ails KC. Now, if you say replace him with Green, grab a stud RB and revamp the defense, then sure that plan would most likely work.

However, in the "real world" ... if you go get Green, KC most likely will not have cap room or draft picks for the RB or defense.

It's really rather simple... Yes, for some of you it would suck to say "Dilfer is our QB", but I think the Ravens' fans got used to it.

KC should use Dilfer as the "short term" (1-2 year) solution, while keeping the picks to shore up the RB and defensive positions. Then, in 2002 or 2003, go spend a gazillion dollars on the top FA QB.

[Edited by Mile High Mania on 03-13-2001 at 01:23 PM]

58Forever
03-13-2001, 02:43 PM
Green can make an immediate impact...we might not be SB contenders but we'll be better off with Green than say, Collins or a Rookie...now, Green would be Cap friendly...we would still have 3 or so mil to play with...we could sign a couple or three D FAs or a stud back...Garner?...don't know...I'm all for getting Green, using the remaining $$$ to see what we can get on D and then letting TRich run wild this year...we are going to pick up a RB with the 3rd and possibly 2nd we may get back...and from what I've heard, most of the RBs are slated to go in those rounds anyway and the ones that don't probably won't be around by pick 12 anyway...

What good will it do to shore up the D, get a stud RB and not have a QB...unless of course you can gaurantee we shore up or D to the tune of a Ravens Clone...nope, didn't think so...

Get Green, get some D FAs, draft smart with the remaining choices and we can be competitive this year...maybe not SB contenders, but at least not the Bungles of the West...

Mile High, Dilfer is actually asking more than we'd have to pay Green...he may settle for less, but he want's more...as far as cap space...we have more than you may realize...so IMO...I think the Broncs would be better off letting Greise go because they can't afford him...if they sign him they won't have enought money to get any good FAs or rookies...look at the numbers...we are better off signing Green as far as cap space goes, then you are signing Greise who doesn't gaurantee anything for you either...:)

[Edited by 58Forever on 03-13-2001 at 03:48 PM]

Pitt Gorilla
03-13-2001, 03:01 PM
Mirror their success? The Ravens D was favoribly compared to some of the best in history. Statistically, they may have been the best. Implying that KC's D could be anywhere NEAR that successful by merely spending on D and wishing it so is completely ignorant. Every team in the league wants a dominant defense; Very few CAN have one. It's a lot easier said than done.

The_Grand_Illusion
03-13-2001, 03:03 PM
At this point, I am not sold on Green either. Though if we end up trading for him, I will support him.

If we go the short-term route for a QB, I am leaning towards Aikman. His championship experience, along with Vermeils, can go a long way to helping this young team in the years to come. The doctors have cleared him to play. I trust the doctors decision. Would they be willing to risk their oath to let him play? Aikman will also have his go to tight end like he had in Novacek in the championship years. He would have a better offensive line here and bigger wide receivers. Not to mention, Arrowhead is a grass field. Then we could concentrate on a stud RB, draft a QBOTF(learn under Aikman), and fill some defensive holes. I would be interested to see if Cloud or Moreau could to the job in this style of offense.

TGI

Mile High Mania
03-13-2001, 03:20 PM
58... your point about Griese was lost on me. There is no way that letting Griese go could be good for Denver.

Pitt... look at the "theory" of my argument, the basic fundamentals and I think it makes more sense. I'm not saying that KC or any other team can get a defense like the Ravens' anytime soon, esp just by throwing money at FAs.

I think KC's best chance for success is to pursue a QB like Dilfer, keeping your high picks and spending the cap money available on stud defensive players. From what most of you say, KC already has a better than average defense, so bring a few stud FAs to push the defense over the top.

As for offense, I think you're best bet is to go stud RB and average QB, rather than Green and an average RB.

htismaqe
03-13-2001, 03:25 PM
I'm getting awfully tired of hearing how Trent Green would provide "immediate impact"...

Did he have "immediate impact" in St. Louis? Yep, with the Astro Turf, paving the way for Kurt.

Did he have "immediate impact: in Washington? Nope, and he wouldn't have ever started if it hadn't have been for bonehead Frerotte's losing streak.

Despite everything that's been said, one FACT remains:

Trent Green is NOT THAT GOOD. He is not a SAVIOR, nor does he guarantee "immediate impact".

Get over it...

58Forever
03-13-2001, 03:27 PM
Mile High, that is my point...I was being sarcastic...of course letting Greise go would not be good for Denver...I was trying to point out to you that signing Green would not hurt us cap wise as much as you might think...

I see where Denver resigned Ferotte, does that mean they are giving up on Greise...no...just hedging their bets...

58Forever
03-13-2001, 03:36 PM
htis, I'll agree to disagree...when I say immediate impact I'm not implying that he's going to take us to the SB...I'm saying that we'll have a starting QB that can come in here and do a capable job of running our offense...is he the savior?...I don't know...I thought Elvis was...shows how well I pick 'em..

So, in that regard, as a capable starting QB, that knows the offense, is comfortable with the coaches and has some talent, however unproven, he CAN have an immediate impact...so there...:p

Mile High Mania
03-13-2001, 03:37 PM
Where did you read that they resigned Gus? Damn... guess that's better than nothing.

58Forever
03-13-2001, 03:41 PM
Mile High, just read it on Yahoo! sports...I'll bring the link over in a minute...

Mile High Mania
03-13-2001, 03:42 PM
58... regarding your comments about Green - what makes him better than Elvis?

Can Green put up numbers like Grbac in 2000 with KC?
Possibly. But, he won't be a "winner" without a RB and improved defense...

We're kinda having a goofy debate. All in all, KC needs a strong #1 RB and improvements on defense before the QB will be accepted with open arms and deemed a "winner".

Mile High Mania
03-13-2001, 03:44 PM
Well, what do ya know...

ENGLEWOOD, Colorado (Ticker) -- Gus Frerotte will return as Brian Griese's backup at quarterback next season after agreeing to terms with the Denver Broncos on Tuesday.
Terms of the deal were not disclosed.

I guess that's cool. It must be one helluva shot to his ego.

58Forever
03-13-2001, 03:47 PM
http://sports.yahoo.com/nfl/news/20010313/denfrerott.html

Here's the link about Ferotte

and yes...we are having a goofy debate because I agree with all you are saying...Green is only as good as the team that surrounds him...and he's no better then Elvis IMO but Elvis isn't here...

So, unless we are able to shore up the D and get a good RB we won't go any farther then we did last year...but...if we are able to get some players...Green gives us the best shot at being in contention the quickest...just what you said...now I'll shut up...

I just don't see the alternatives, Collins, or a rookie or some journeymen, as very appealing...I would like to win more that 5 games this year...

Now, I wouldn't mind Aikman, but do you think he'll play for less then 1.8 mil?....maybe....that's what it will cost us for Green...

Mile High Mania
03-13-2001, 03:52 PM
Run Forrest... run away, run far far away from Troy!

ExtremeChief
03-13-2001, 03:56 PM
I don't see us doing anything about Green until draft day, unless the deal is great for the Chiefs. So I'm gonna rant bout defense.

We can probably put as many studs as we want on defense and still won't be able to match what the Ravens did last year. Call it fate, karma, luck, whatever you want...it was just their year.

We do, however have some holes to fill. I miss my Chiefs tenacious defense. The attacking, no holes barred, pin your ears back and fly D. It was our trademark a few years back. Hopefully our new DC can bring that back to us. His main objective right now is to get the D to gel as a team. IMO that is the main thing we lost. The players have to trust each other to make plays, and not try to cover their teammates positions. I don't know what it will take to get them there, but I think the coaching change is a good start.

If we don't get Green and go with a career backup QB I can live with that, as long as we build for the future. I don't see a "franchise" QB in this draft. So hopefully we'll build the D through the draft or FA. I'd love to see our D slamming 3 and outs left and right and T-Rich jamming it up the gut next year. I know I'm not ready for "Rams West" just yet. Above all else, at least were making a change, we'll just have to wait and see if it's for the better...

58Forever
03-13-2001, 03:58 PM
As a stop gap measure, I'd rather see him then Dilfer or Buerlein...and besides the Chiefs are known for getting once great QBs from other teams at the end of their careers...

Mile High, how do you feel about Flutie in SD?...I for one don't look forward to another "scrambler" that dinks and dunks and runs and...well you know what I mean...two in one division is too many...one more team to make adjustments for...and with the SD line, Flutie will be running alot...SD still finishes last but....

Mile High Mania
03-13-2001, 04:05 PM
I like Flutie... he could make them somewhat legit.

Cannibal
03-13-2001, 04:29 PM
Keeping the # 12 pick, but starting Todd Collins is moronic, especially if you want to win now.

The_Grand_Illusion
03-13-2001, 10:57 PM
MHM,

What have you got against Aikman? Seems he has decent stats (from Yahoo) against the AFC West teams. I agree with 58 that he might be the best stop gap QB available, if we decide to go that route. While he may not be the TA of old, IMO we might be able to get a couple more decent years out of him while we get a QBOTF ready. Most importantly we would keep our draft picks. He could be very cap friendly as long as he gets a chance to start. I believe the Cowboys still owe him 10 million for this year verses the 17 million they would have owed him if they had kept him on the roster.

TGI

Troy Aikman * #8 Quarterback Dallas*Cowboys

Split Stats

G* ATT COMP PCT YDS YD/G YD/P LNG 1stD INT TD ATT YDS YD/G YD/R LNG 1stD TD NUM YDS NUM LOST QBRATE

Total 97 2795 1707 .611 19315 199.1 6.9 90 943 75 96 164 307 3.2 1.9 23 39 6 120 816 31 18 82.0


vs AFC West 7 203 130 .640 1420 202.9 7.0 36 73 3 10 12 41 5.9 3.4 10 3 1 6 35 1 0 94.9

Denver 2 43 23 .535 284 142.0 6.6 36 17 1 3 6 28 14.0 4.7 10 2 1 0 0 0 0 87.7

Oakland 1 24 19 .792 227 227.0 9.5 36 12 0 1 1 -1 -1.0 -1.0 -1 0 0 1 4 0 0 120.0

San Diego 1 30 21 .700 222 222.0 7.4 30 10 0 0 0 0 0.0 0.0 0 0 0 1 7 0 0 91.2

Seattle 1 42 28 .667 296 296.0 7.0 24 17 1 2 5 14 14.0 2.8 10 1 0 1 4 1 0 93.0


[Edited by The_Grand_Illusion on 03-14-2001 at 12:06 AM]

Mile High Mania
03-14-2001, 06:30 AM
TGI ... the stats are kinda scrambled, but here's what I know about Aikman. I have lived in Dallas for the last 8 years.

I have seen the Cowboys on both spectrums of NFL success. Troy Aikman had solid numbers when his team was good. Since 1995 or 1996 (the year after the Switzer SB) Aikman has sucked.

Aikman cannot play well unless he has very good players around him. Aikman does not elevate the players around him to be better. Aikman cannot "will" a team to victory by putting them on his back and saying "follow me".

Aikman ******* at other players for team failures. Aikman is a typical system QB. He's not an Elway, Favre, Marino or Manning in the sense that he can put up stellar numbers with or without a boatload of talent around him.

Add to that, he is brittle. KC could bring him in and have some success, I'll give you that... but he will not play more than 11 games in any given season from now until he retires.

Plus ... I've always hated the Cowboys. I have many friends that are Cowboys' fans and when we get into the "great QB debates" it used to be "Aikman has 3, Elway has 0 rings". Now, it's "Ok, Aikman has 1 more than Elway".

I ask them this... how many times or better yet, when was the last time they watched the Cowboys win and they came away from the game saying "Damn, Aikman really won that game for us!"

It rarely happens.

KCWolfman
03-14-2001, 06:59 AM
One thing not mentioned (so maybe I missed something).

If you offer a first and third for a QB with the experience of Rick Mirer, why not make the same offer to the Jags for Mark Brunnell?

There is a proven and established leader/winner. The Jags are really hurting cap wise and Brunnell may be an unfortunate (hehe) casualty. So why not give a Star deal for a real Star instead of a possible flashlight bulb?

Mile High Mania
03-14-2001, 07:19 AM
Rock on... Wolfman and Gaz are on my side of the fence with this one. It must be legit!!!!!!

The_Grand_Illusion
03-14-2001, 01:04 PM
Mile High,

Thanks for the insight on Aikman. Sorry about the jumbled stats. That is how they cut and pasted from Yahoo. I almost made a HTML table for them but that takes a little time. I'm not a big Cowboys fan either. I am surrounded by their fans too. I'm just not sold on Dilfer or Banks to run the Chiefs offense. I wouldn't mind seeing both Beurlein and Aikman here to help get us through a full season. There are not many available options for us at this point. I do agree with you that Trent Green is not worth what the Rams are asking for.

I will agree with you that Aikman was a solid QB when he had good players around him. I will also agree with you that he has "sucked" since they won the last Superbowl. In defense of the Cowboys (I can't believe I'm doing this). Didn't Jerry Jones concentrate too much cap money on his stars since winning the last SB? Did that spread them too thin on talent and depth? We get Cowboys games broadcast here. From my observation the last couple of years is that Aikman has been running for his life back there. I understand that the Cowboys O-line has suffered injuries over the last couple of years. They didn't seem to have the talent to overcome those injuries. I'm not trying to get in a debate over the Cowboys with you because we both don't like them. I'm just trying to look at it objectivly wondering if Aikman has a couple of years left in him while we get a QBOTF ready. Any input from ground zero would be appreciated.

TGI

Mile High Mania
03-14-2001, 03:23 PM
Dammit... you're trying to make me provide excuses for Troy-boy. Arrrrrggghhh!!

Ok, I'll give you this... Emmitt Smith has really only had one bad season since their SB era. Emmitt has been pretty damn solid over his career.

Once Troy lost Novacek, he lost his security blanket. Couple that with Irvin's drugs, injury and retirment. The Cowboys could not really find a good #2 WR or a solid TE.

Last year, he had Jackie Harris at TE, but Ismail and Galloway were injured. So, for the last 3 years, I'll admit that he's had little to work with other than Smith. So, if he went to KC with Gonzo, Alexander and Morriss, he might do well. Still need a RB, which leads me back to Dilfer.

Aikman wouldn't be the worst move, but his injuries would keep me away.

[Edited by Mile High Mania on 03-14-2001 at 04:25 PM]