View Full Version : For all who oppose getting Green, give me some rational alternatives that...
03-13-2001, 04:52 PM
won't make me puke and I'll be happy to reconsider...
And throwing in the towel and calling 2001 a "rebuilding" year is not an alternative...
Neither is Todd Collins IMO...although if I had to choose between him and Banks I might have to go with Collins...
Let's hear it...
Draft a QBOTF?...what?, Come on. Let's hear it...:p
03-13-2001, 05:03 PM
Why is rebuilding out of the question. We have tried to retool since the 1997-98 season, and it has returned zero in dividends. In my opinion, we don't have the necessary framework to retool. We are missing some key components in the organization that can only come thru the draft, given our cap status.
Why not Trent Green?
1. He is not proven. The Chiefs seem to be the only team willing to give up a high 1st rder for him, and IMO, it's only b/c Green is bed partners with Saunders/DV.
2. He is oft injured. You no longer have Grunny or Szott for protection, which leaves 2 huge holes to fill for the next season. If we can't run the ball any more effectively than we did in 2000, Green will be in the hospital before game 6.
3. He is coming to a team that he can not send over the edge - get to the playoffs. This team lacks more than just one Trent Green from getting to the playoff's. You surrender a #12 for TG and your defense is still bleeding points away every game with the current defensive unit.
He's not the answer to the problem. But, he will add more problems to finding the answer if we go thru with this trade.
03-13-2001, 05:28 PM
He's had 19 career starts. He's 30 years old.
That right there is enough for me to realize that he's not worth the 12th and 36th overall picks in the draft.
keg in kc
03-13-2001, 05:30 PM
Reasons to get Green: DV likes him. He's run a Coryell-esque offense.
Reasons to not get Green: We don't have a second round pick, so we won't draft any player until #77. How's that knee? He is in no way, shape or form familiar with the Chiefs personnel, which basically negates his experience with the Rams offense; this will not be "Rams west," at least in my opinion.
Just a short list, but I think it pretty much covers my feelings on the matter.
As for options, I consider taking Green at the expense of half the 2001 draft to be significantly worse than starting Troy Aikman or Steve Beuerlein and having our full complement of picks. Doesn't mean I don't like Green and it doesn't mean I think he won't succeed, I just don't like the price.
Of course, it doesn't really matter what I think, since Green will be our QB in less than 48 hours...
03-13-2001, 05:33 PM
Reasons to get Green are:
He has a prior relationship with the coaches running the offense.
He's proven he can put up big numbers in the offense they will use.
The rest of the QB's are horrible.
If you want to win now you trade for Green. If you want to rebuild, you draft a QBOTF and throw him into the fire.
keg in kc
03-13-2001, 05:45 PM
Getting Green at the current price they're asking is basically a guarantee that we won't win now, and we won't win next year either.
He isn't enough to make KC a playoff team, and getting him at the cost of the 1st and 3rd means we have no chance at a high-calibre DT, CB, RB, LB or anything else in the April draft.
One step forward, arguably, and two steps backward.
The only way this is even a halfway good move is if we get at least a second round pick back. That way we still won't win now, but we have at least a slight chance of winning in 2002 - which should be the goal at this point anyway.
Like it or not, we are rebuilding, and QB is not the only position we have to fill. We need a starting C and probably a starting G, not to mention a #3 WR since our current one is a free agent a nd unsigned at this point. We've lost a starting DT and starting CB, and, hell, even with Green, if we don't shore up the defense, we'll be lucky if we score enough next year to go 7-9 again.
Green for #12 and #75 is simply the worst move we could possibly make in my opinion.
But, again, what does my opinion matter, I think it's a done deal before midnight tomorrow...
03-13-2001, 06:29 PM
Bob Dole has to side with keg on this one (and it's definitely not the first time Bob Dole has closely aligned himslef with a keg...)
We're not a QB away from the SB. We're probably not just a QB and a HB away. Who the h#ll knows what we have on defense now that we have someone other than the Scarecrow running the thing, but bob dole is pretty sure it's not the 2000 Ravens' D.
That said, if we grab Green, we probably fail to fill HB and any other hole until next year's draft.
If we don't take Green, we have the potential to fill the HB spot <b>and</b> any other glaring deficiency. We still won't go to the big game in 2001, but we'll be building for 2002. This year's free agency situation clearly illustrates that you can't tell what is going to happen or who is going to be available.
Aikman is "free," essentially, and he's been-there-done-that and is an ideal tutor for a youngster. Even with Grunny and Szott's departure (Szott may as well have departed last off-season, IBDHO), we've got a superior O-line to that fielded by the Boyz in 2000. If we have <b>any</b> running game, it will only help things. And we don't play on plastic sheeting laid directly on concrete when we're home. Take a chance on the "free" guy and build through the draft.
Beuerlein will probably be "free" after April 1, when he's due a $1.5 million bonus, and despite having an "off" year in 2000, is still a pretty decent QB.
Grab Aikman now with an incentive-laden contract, cut Collins loose, draft a HB in the first and a QB with an unpronouncable name in the 3rd, Sign Beuerlein after 4/1 with that "huge cap space" Carl spouted about and let him and Troyboy fight it out for the starting spot, while they both help groom the QBOTF.
03-13-2001, 06:50 PM
I think we're all basing this on the idea of the team as it is now. Sure a first rounder means a lot, but on the other hand if we sign Green, go out and sign some quality free agents, the blow is not as severe as it may seem. Free agency in many ways has made the draft less important than it was.
Of course you always risk signing your duds in free agency, but the same goes for the draft IE Jenkins, Hill, Snow, Blackledge, etc). The key is will Carl become active on the market to make up for the lost picks, and will he sign quality guys? It is a lot easier to find a RB, DL or CB in free agency than it is to find a quality QB. And in draft terms, there are no QB's to draft that are either can't miss or who will make any kind of immediate impact.
And on another note, IMO a very important aspect of trading for Trent Green is we need a QB who can consistently deliver the ball to a guy like Tony Gonzalez. If we go with crap at the QB position, and if they don't deliver the ball well, consistently, or at all, we are going to have one unhappy superstar on our hand who will want out. Sure we can franchise him, but you'd rather he be happy and willing to sign a long term extension...
03-13-2001, 07:10 PM
Bob Dole feels that if we give up the picks requested by the Rams for Green and go the FA route, we'll have insufficient cap space to fill all the holes.
03-13-2001, 07:19 PM
I doubt the draft is going to fill all the holes. And if we get a draft pick in return, we're only talking 1 less hole that could be filled by the draft pick. Of course with the trade, we would be filling the biggest and hardest to fill hole on the roster, and that is the QB spot.
Besides with the 3rd most cap room in the NFL, I don't think that argument flies. If the Green trade goes down, we will probably sign him to an extension, since he actually WANTS to be here, and save us another million or so.
Besides, consider the fact that Green would be here immediately. Then consider the fact that the first rounder would be engaged in a lengthy war with Carl and miss most of training camp and be relatively useless this year anyway... :)
03-13-2001, 07:27 PM
The draft likely will not fill all the holes, but it will fill a h#ll of a lot more than if we trade them for Green.
This is the best draft position we've enjoyed for years, and is the <b>only</b> thing that comforted most of us during the last excuse for a season. DV needs to get over his erection for Green the Unproven and just f#cking move on, IBDHO.
Bob Dole's earlier message outlined Bob Dole's thoughts fairly clearly, so there's really no reason to repeat them here.
03-13-2001, 07:44 PM
But Senator, all you are doing is trading one unknown for another not quite unknown. Again, if the proposed trade where we get a pick in return goes down, we're in essense just losing one draft pick while filling the QB hole. Or you could keep the draft pick and hope that you drafted someone good and not a Blackledge while still having a gaping hole at QB that free agency doesn't even have a real fix for...
03-13-2001, 07:49 PM
I'm in favor of making a reasonable deal for Green---a 1st & 3rd (and perhaps another pick at a later date) for Green and our 2nd back. I don't want to go into any details on it, but I sincerely hope that if the deal happens we don't have Chiefs fans bad-mouthing Green, Vermeil, etc. because they don't agree with the direction taken. And, I sincerely hope that the first time Green hits a rough spot that the boos don't start flying.
03-13-2001, 07:55 PM
Wolf - Or you could trade for Green and find out he is the next Dave, "I won't fumble this time", Krieg.
Aikman is available, and wont cost us picks.
Can you say that we have a reasonable chance to go deep in the playoffs if we take Green this year? If the answer is "No", then I can't see any reason to sign him.
Green will be available next year too if Warner stays healthy. Along with a plethora of other "great QB's". This year we can shore up some much needed problems elsewhere and focus on fixing many losses.
When we are complete, then we can focus on the QB.
The Ravens have proven you can take the single worst starting QB in the league and still win the SB. Trent is not worth a potential good HB and another pick.
keg in kc
03-13-2001, 08:02 PM
The only way we'll be able to afford much of anything in free agency if Green comes in is if we immediately extend/re-do his contract. At this point we have roughly @6 millon for the cap, and Green will count either 2.4 or 2.9 of that depending on when we sign him. That leaves only 3 to 3.5 million left to spend (and I'm not sure if the rookie pool has to be taken from that or not) on the rest of the team.
Don't be fooled by the amount of cap space - one of the most expensive positions in the league (qb) is empty at the moment. We have some leverage, certainly more than teams like the Titans, but we don't exactly have bags and bags of moolah lying around to sign free agents...
03-13-2001, 08:49 PM
What I would do will not be popular, nor will it ever happen IMO as I believe we are destined to get Green.
First off, I would bring in Aikman. I have never been a Cowboys fan, but I do think Aikman has class and would be a great roll modle for our QBOTF.
Second, I would use the 49ers as my draft roll modle, and trade down. Not once, but twice. I would openly shop the #12 pick on draft day, as I don't think the only 2 backs I would take a chance on in the 1st round will be there at #12 (McAllister or Tomlinson). Hopefully the #12 pick will be attractive enough to someone between 13 thru 20 to trade down and pick up their 2nd rounder. Then, maybe Moss will still be there, and the Eagles will trade with us again and give up their 1st pick in round 3 from the Chargers.
For an EXAMPLE, I will use Detroit for our 1st trade down scenario...
Trade our #12 with Detroit for their #18 and #48.
Then trade the #18 for #25 and #63
This give us...
1st round #25
2nd round #48
3rd round #63, #75, #77
4th round #104, #105
With as many areas that need adressed as we have, IMO, this is the best route to take.
[Edited by Coogs on 03-13-2001 at 08:52 PM]
03-13-2001, 09:15 PM
I favor two scenarios, one is trade for Trent Green and give up as little as possible to do so, or admit that we are rebuilding and draft a rookie and throw him to the wolves.
I don't favor Troy Acheman... One more hit and the dude is going to be sitting next to Christopher Reeves crying about how he should have retired.
I don't favor the moron Frerotte. I don't favor Dilfer. I don't favor Collins. And Tony Banks is worse than all of them.
03-13-2001, 10:19 PM
KCWolf is right, barring a serious Warner injury, Green will be available again next year, and at a much lower price. Why lower? Because he'll be entering his final contract year, meaning the Rams will be in a deal-him-now-or-get-nothing-later mode. Their leverage will be gone.
Get Beuerlein now (maybe Aikman), draft some young talent with our picks, and if DV still has a woody for Green next year, get him then!
Coogs, I like the train of thought you're on there. Kind of follows the old theory of throw a bunch of s*** against the wall and see what sticks. Since I don't foresee a playoff berth next season, with or without Green, I'd prefer to watch a team with young and hungry players who might show some promise. Better 4-12 with effort and hope for the future than 7-9 and acceptance of mediocrity.
I won't even go into all my reasons for not making the Green trade. Many have already been posted and the rest are just making me tired.
03-14-2001, 08:49 AM
Not that anyone responding here seems to have given it any thought, but todays reports tend to confirm Bob Dole's contention yesterday that Carolina will release Beuerlein some time prior to April 1, at which point we could obtain a healthy, experienced QB without giving away our entire 2001 draft.
Whether you "favor" Aikman or not, a veteran minimum, incentive-laden contract doesn't do serious damage if you have an experienced backup to step in, and you've got an ideal guy to mentor your mid-round QB selection.
Once again, we should sign Aikman to an incentive-laden 2 or 3 year deal, wait a couple of weeks and pick up Beuerlein and release Collins. Use our draft picks that <b>didn't</b> go to St. Louis for Green and grab Smoots, a halfback, and a QB project.
Bob Dole doesn't see this as leaving us any worse this season, and probably leaves us with a lot fewer holes to fill in the 2002 draft.
03-14-2001, 10:18 AM
Okay, some of you have offered alternatives..and some of you have just stated why or why not we shouldn't trade for Green...
In the alternative camp...The Aikman/Buerlien scenario seems intriguing...but only if we are smart enough with our scouting to know which young QB to draft and only if we are capable of developing him...DV maybe moreso that Marty or Gun...
My desire to get Green has deminished after reading today that while he's healthy, he is not 100% as far as being able to practice...an he may not be until TC...that makes a difference...for a QB that couldn't play today if he had too...the price may be too much...
It's funny, but we have one QB and we still have a QB controversy...
Bring in a couple of QBs to battle it out with Collins for the starting QB position. The best two are starter and backup. The Panthers will release Steve Beuerlein, Brunell is likely to part company with the Jaguars. The Billy Joe Twins are available. There are enough FA QBs to provide a stopgap until Green is FA or our QBOTF grows up or another QB comes available. I cannot advocate Aikman when I think he should retire for medical reasons.
Pick up Ward. He would provide speed at WR#3 and can also handle P/KR duties.
Make Richardson the featured HB [and the HB Homers go ballistic]. I would be willing to consider a deal for Garner or perhaps Watters if it is cap-friendly, but I am quite ready to go into battle with Richardson.
Round 1: Richard Seymour, DT or Damione Lewis, DT or Marcus Stroud, DT.
Round 3a: Travis Henry, RB or Chad Ward, OG.
Round 3b: Chad Ward, OG or Gary Baxter, CB.
Round 4b: Casey Rabach, OC or Ken-Yon Rambo, WR.
Round 4a: Marques Tuiasosopo, QB or Quincy Carter, QB.
Round 5 & on: Best athlete available.
rational alternative, on demand.
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