Justifying Day Care

[C-Mac]

http://featuresblogs.chicagotribune.com/features_julieshealthclub/2007/03/how_i_justify_d.html
Justifying day care
"As if I don’t already feel guilty for putting my son in day care at the tender age of three months, a new study shows that the more time children spend in center-based care before kindergarten, the more likely they’ll fight, disobey and argue, according to their 6th grade teachers.

The increase in problem behavior was slight, but studies like this inspire me to look for the silver lining. And I always return to the same thing: "the hygiene hypothesis," or the belief that early exposure to germs helps the immune system develop properly.

While most children get six to eight infections a year, children in day care bring home twice that number, or about one a month. Day-care settings --or petri dishes, as my pediatrician calls them-- have high levels of indoor allergens and have been shown to incubate and spread antibiotic resistant bacteria.

This sounds like a no-brainer: Keep your children at home! But since most of us don't have that option--63 percent of U.S. children under the age of five spend 37 hours a week in child care--I manage to get through the work day by reminding myself my kids might turn out healthier in the long run.

Some research bears this out. A 2005 study in the British Medical Journal showed that children who attended day care in the first few months of life are less likely to develop leukemia than children who do not, most likely because they were protected from exposure to common infections. Similar associations have been reported for Type 1diabetes and allergies and asthma in children.

Still, even if they have stronger immune systems, is it worth sending them to day care if they’re going to have behavioral issues that persist at least until 6th grade? That, according to the research, published in the March/April issue of "Child Development," is up to the parents.

The researchers involved with the longest and most comprehensive study of child care in the U.S. cautioned that parenting quality was a much more important predictor of child development than the type, quantity or quality of child care.

Ultimately, while quality day care is important, a quality home environment matters more."



We had to do without some things obviuosly but the wife and I both agreed that her being at home while the children were young, was far more important than her having a career or us having a new car or house. We now get compliments all the time about our kids and their behavior and I truly feel that this is one of the main reasons why. I do understand that not everyone's situation allows mom to stay home(especially single moms), but I do think that there are many cases that if they just tried to live a little simpler, they could pull it off.

[NewChief]

Interestingly enough, a similar (maybe the same?) study shows that children in high-quality daycares have measurably, but not extremely, higher performance in school than those in lower quality daycare. I didn't see a comparison between stay-at-home children and daycare kids.

[Skip Towne]

http://featuresblogs.chicagotribune.com/features_julieshealthclub/2007/03/how_i_justify_d.html
Justifying day care
"As if I don’t already feel guilty for putting my son in day care at the tender age of three months, a new study shows that the more time children spend in center-based care before kindergarten, the more likely they’ll fight, disobey and argue, according to their 6th grade teachers.

The increase in problem behavior was slight, but studies like this inspire me to look for the silver lining. And I always return to the same thing: "the hygiene hypothesis," or the belief that early exposure to germs helps the immune system develop properly.

While most children get six to eight infections a year, children in day care bring home twice that number, or about one a month. Day-care settings --or petri dishes, as my pediatrician calls them-- have high levels of indoor allergens and have been shown to incubate and spread antibiotic resistant bacteria.

This sounds like a no-brainer: Keep your children at home! But since most of us don't have that option--63 percent of U.S. children under the age of five spend 37 hours a week in child care--I manage to get through the work day by reminding myself my kids might turn out healthier in the long run.

Some research bears this out. A 2005 study in the British Medical Journal showed that children who attended day care in the first few months of life are less likely to develop leukemia than children who do not, most likely because they were protected from exposure to common infections. Similar associations have been reported for Type 1diabetes and allergies and asthma in children.

Still, even if they have stronger immune systems, is it worth sending them to day care if they’re going to have behavioral issues that persist at least until 6th grade? That, according to the research, published in the March/April issue of "Child Development," is up to the parents.

The researchers involved with the longest and most comprehensive study of child care in the U.S. cautioned that parenting quality was a much more important predictor of child development than the type, quantity or quality of child care.

Ultimately, while quality day care is important, a quality home environment matters more."



We had to do without some things obviuosly but the wife and I both agreed that her being at home while the children were young, was far more important than her having a career or us having a new car or house. We now get compliments all the time about our kids and their behavior and I truly feel that this is one of the main reasons why. I do understand that not everyone's situation allows mom to stay home(especially single moms), but I do think that there are many cases that if they just tried to live a little simpler, they could pull it off.
Well, that and your kids have good parents.

[Simplex3]

My wife and my theory was "If you aren't going to raise them then why have them?" Did our income take a hit? Abso-freaking-lutely. Would I do it again? In a minute. Our kids are as smart and well behaved as any I know.

[C-Mac]

Interestingly enough, a similar (maybe the same?) study shows that children in high-quality daycares have measurably, but not extremely, higher performance in school than those in lower quality daycare. I didn't see a comparison between stay-at-home children and daycare kids.

I do know that some daycare centers have some preschooling programs for the older ones and could obviously help them get a jump on the schooling process. I sent all my kids to preschool. I do know that my friends kids who did go to daycare were sick much more often than mine ever were. They are quite unruley at times, but that also could fall on the failure of the parents.

[C-Mac]

Well, that and your kids have good parents.
Thanks Skip, seems its a job that you keep learning as you go along.

[C-Mac]

My wife and my theory was "If you aren't going to raise them then why have them?" Did our income take a hit? Abso-freaking-lutely. Would I do it again? In a minute. Our kids are as smart and well behaved as any I know.

Well done.

[JBucc]

I used to help clean bathrooms at a daycare I went to. I'm not sure it that's still legal or not but there was some pretty nasty stuff in there. Anyway I don't have any kids but speaking from the other side as a kid I loved it.

[Deberg_1990]

We had to do without some things obviuosly but the wife and I both agreed that her being at home while the children were young, was far more important than her having a career or us having a new car or house.

I couldnt agree more. My wife has been home for almost 4 years now raising our kids and its the best thing we could have done. She put a teaching career on hold figuring she could always go back later. Sure we had to sacrifice alot of material things, but all in all, we havent done too bad.

[stevieray]

My wife and my theory was "If you aren't going to raise them then why have them?" Did our income take a hit? Abso-freaking-lutely. Would I do it again? In a minute. Our kids are as smart and well behaved as any I know.

same here..we've made it ten years on just my income...been worth every sacrifice...what's wild, is my wife is even more committed to being home during the HS years.

[Mile High Mania]

Our kids go to a deal at church for a few hours a day, three days a week. It's not a generic day care, they actually learn stuff and interact with other kids. They seem to really like it and they're learning stuff.

We didn't want to do the full day every day thing for all the reasons mentioned.

[Simplex3]

Our kids go to a deal at church for a few hours a day, three days a week. It's not a generic day care, they actually learn stuff and interact with other kids. They seem to really like it and they're learning stuff.

We didn't want to do the full day every day thing for all the reasons mentioned.
We do two years of pre-school leading up to kindergarten, two days a week for 3 hours each day. Sort of a warm-up before kindergarten.

[Mr. Plow]

Not that I don't agree with stay at home mom's. We are preparing for our 4th child - 3 will be at home - and my wife is going to try to work from home. Luckily, it's our business so she will still be able to bring in some money.

My feeling has always been daycare is helpful for children in the growth process to be around other kids. Learning things that mom and dad can teach, but they have to experience first hand. Just the simple process of learning to play with other kids, or sharing, etc.

My kids have all gone to daycare. Not daycare centers, but daycare in someones home. Finding the right person is a very time consuming process, but when you do, it's great to know that your kids are in that type of environment.

I do feel that being with parents can be a good thing for kids. But both kids & adults need some separation. It helps both the parents & the kids.

Just my opinion, so take it for what it's worth.

[Judge Smails]

Not that I don't agree with stay at home mom's. We are preparing for our 4th child - 3 will be at home - and my wife is going to try to work from home. Luckily, it's our business so she will still be able to bring in some money.

My feeling has always been daycare is helpful for children in the growth process to be around other kids. Learning things that mom and dad can teach, but they have to experience first hand. Just the simple process of learning to play with other kids, or sharing, etc.

My kids have all gone to daycare. Not daycare centers, but daycare in someones home. Finding the right person is a very time consuming process, but when you do, it's great to know that your kids are in that type of environment.

I do feel that being with parents can be a good thing for kids. But both kids & adults need some separation. It helps both the parents & the kids.

Just my opinion, so take it for what it's worth.

I'm glad some one feels the same as I do. My wife and I love our daycare provider (daycare in someone's home) and our daughter has learned as much from the kids as she has from us. Yes, she catches every sniffle they have, but are we going to lock her up in a plastic bubble until she turns 30?
The whole behavior argument is crap. I was in daycare off and on growing up and have never has a problem arguing, however my youngest brother was exclusively at home and was the the most stubborn pain in the ass.

[Mile High Mania]

I don't have anything against day cares... hell, my mom has worked at one for 20 years. My wife and I just didn't want to have our kids in one form 9-5 every day.

[ZepSinger]

same here..we've made it ten years on just my income...been worth every sacrifice...what's wild, is my wife is even more committed to being home during the HS years.

Same story here... my wife has been at home raising our 3 girls for 9 years now, and homeschooling them as well. There's definitely been some tough financial times, but my daughters being at home is worth every hardship we've faced. They're complimented everywhere they go for how well-mannered and smart they are. I can honestly say it's the best decision we've ever made.

Z

[Simplex3]

I'm glad some one feels the same as I do. My wife and I love our daycare provider (daycare in someone's home) and our daughter has learned as much from the kids as she has from us. Yes, she catches every sniffle they have, but are we going to lock her up in a plastic bubble until she turns 30?
The whole behavior argument is crap. I was in daycare off and on growing up and have never has a problem arguing, however my youngest brother was exclusively at home and was the the most stubborn pain in the ass.
Why did you have them if you're going to see them 2 hours a day and have someone else raise them? Justify it to yourself any way you'd like but you spend about 1/3 as much time with your child as the daycare lady does. They're more her kids than yours. You can keep congratulating yourselves on finding a provider that mimics you (or what you wish you were), though.

[Saulbadguy]

Why did you have them if you're going to see them 2 hours a day and have someone else raise them? Justify it to yourself any way you'd like but you spend about 1/3 as much time with your child as the daycare lady does. They're more her kids than yours. You can keep congratulating yourselves on finding a provider that mimics you (or what you wish you were), though.
Do you homeschool your children, too?

I worked at a daycare for nearly 5 years. Being in daycare didn't make them behave badly, or have poor manners. That was a reflection of poor parenting, not poor "day-caring".

I think if you do the math, you will find that even if you do put your children in daycare, you will spend more time with them than your daycare providers do..unless of course you put them in weekend daycare, which I don't think too many people do.

[kepp]

We do two years of pre-school leading up to kindergarten, two days a week for 3 hours each day. Sort of a warm-up before kindergarten.
That's pretty much what we're doing. Right now our 3 1/2 year old goes two half-days a week to an "early learners" class (pre-preschool). Next year we're going to have her go three half-days in preschool and then it's on to the big time...kindergarten.

[kepp]

I worked at a daycare for nearly 5 years.
I was wondering who kept slapping those K-State stickers on my kid's back as she walked out the door.

[Hydrae]

My mother was a stay at home mom and I know how much that meant to me growing up knowing she would be there when I got home from school. I love the fact that my wife WANTS to be a stay home mother. One child is now grown and gone with 2 more to go. And yes, my kids get complimented a lot on how they act.

Oh, on the whole immunities type of thing, I agree that exposure strengthens the immune system. The other thing we do nowadays that takes away from that is all the shots we give our kids instead of allowing nature to take care of things. Some of them are certainly a good thing but we take it to far as a society IMO and do it too young. We did not allow our kids any shots until they were a year old and they all have grown up just fine health-wise.

[Saulbadguy]

Oh, on the whole immunities type of thing, I agree that exposure strengthens the immune system. The other thing we do nowadays that takes away from that is all the shots we give our kids instead of allowing nature to take care of things. Some of them are certainly a good thing but we take it to far as a society IMO and do it too young. We did not allow our kids any shots until they were a year old and they all have grown up just fine health-wise.
Yeaaaah. Let's just ake 50 years of medical science and advances, and throw it out the door.

[stevieray]

Yeaaaah. Let's just ake 50 years of medical science and advances, and throw it out the door.

I still can't figure out how we all survived without bike helmets.

[Hydrae]

Do you homeschool your children, too?

I worked at a daycare for nearly 5 years. Being in daycare didn't make them behave badly, or have poor manners. That was a reflection of poor parenting, not poor "day-caring".

I think if you do the math, you will find that even if you do put your children in daycare, you will spend more time with them than your daycare providers do..unless of course you put them in weekend daycare, which I don't think too many people do.

While I agree that his quote was a stretch, I will never understand some people who pay 90% of the second income to ship their kids off. I firmly believe this is stupid and selfish.

I will agree that socialization of young children is good also. That is where Sunday School and church come in nicely. :)

[Saulbadguy]

I still can't figure out how we all survived without bike helmets.
Obviously because alot of people simply do not have that much to lose up there.

[Saulbadguy]

While I agree that his quote was a stretch, I will never understand some people who pay 90% of the second income to ship their kids off. I firmly believe this is stupid and selfish.

I will agree that socialization of young children is good also. That is where Sunday School and church come in nicely. :)
It's nowhere near 90%. If I had a child right now, it would be around %35 of my wifes income to send the child to daycare. That is a much nicer figure than 100%, IMO.

[Craash]

. . . That is where Sunday School and church come in nicely. :)


Great, now we are throwing science and logic RIGHT out the window.

[Hydrae]

Yeaaaah. Let's just ake 50 years of medical science and advances, and throw it out the door.

Sorry, didn't mean to sidetrack the discussion and don't have time to follow up right now but let's ignore the large increase in autism that has been linked to early immunizations. It is a controversial subject with no clear cut answers but I believe we take it too far as a society.

Oh, and don't get my wife started on this subject. Or the new vaccine to prevent cervical cancer that is being required now here in Texas for all girls in 6th grade. What they don't tell you (in this lovely society driven by fear that we live in) is that the only ones at risk for this problem are those sexually active. If my 6th grader is sexually active there is a much bigger issue, IMO!

[ZepSinger]

Yeaaaah. Let's just ake 50 years of medical science and advances, and throw it out the door.

That's not necessarily true. When my middle daughter was born, our pediatrician pressured us to immunize her with something that had recently come out. We did so. Then, about a year later, he said that they had to discontinue that type of immunization because it was found to cause irritation in the esophagus, which caused babies to spit up far more than normal (which was indeed the case with our daughter). So yes, I believe that the medical community can and does over-immunize. Some immunizations are imperative yes, but not all.

Z

[stevieray]

Obviously because alot of people simply do not have that much to lose up there.

we were too independent to try to save each other from ourselves.

[Hydrae]

Great, now we are throwing science and logic RIGHT out the window.


Huh? Just because it is a good place for people to socialize?

[Saulbadguy]

That's not necessarily true. When my middle daughter was born, our pediatrician pressured us to immunize her with something that had recently come out. We did so. Then, about a year later, he said that they had to discontinue that type of immunization because it was found to cause irritation in the esophagus, which caused babies to spit up far more than normal (which was indeed the case with our daughter). So yes, I believe that the medical community can and does over-immunize. Some immunizations are imperative yes, but not all

Z
I'll agree with all of that. I don't think i'd agree to an immunization that hasn't been proven effective over the long run.

[Saulbadguy]

we were too independent to try to save each other from ourselves.
And we have too much of a mob mentality when it comes to destroying each another.

[Craash]

Huh? Just because it is a good place for people to socialize?

I'm sorry, I should have followed with a /sarcasm. It just seemed odd for religion to make it's way into a conversation about the benifits, pro/con, of early child care.

[stevieray]

And we have too much of a mob mentality when it comes to destroying each another.

that's because too many are kids raised in day care...;)

[KC Kings]

This a pretty touchy subject to start the morning off with. Basically, if you stay home with your kids that means you sacrafice more for them and spend more time with them. To me, that is putting your children over yourself which is fine for me because my wife stays at home, but flip that logic around to daycare families and it is pretty insulting.

So now day care has a negative impact on your children? Look at all of the studies that shows what divorce does to kids, (drugs, teen sex, drop out rates, etc...) With 53% of American marriages ending in divorces I think a much bigger issue for our children is divorce rather than preschool.

Also, we live in a middle class neighborhood that is full of young families. Our half completed subdivision fills up 2 full school busses of kids and most of those Mom's stay at home. My wife is in 3 different play groups, the neighborhood committee, Bunko, and spends all day at the pool with the kids during the summer. She knows most of the stay at home Moms and at least 25% of them take Zoloft or some other happy drug because their kids drive them nuts. It is my, uneducated oppinion that for every mom that stays at home because it allows them to spend time with a teach their child, there is another that uses the kids as an excuse for not having to go to work.

[eazyb81]

While I agree that his quote was a stretch, I will never understand some people who pay 90% of the second income to ship their kids off. I firmly believe this is stupid and selfish.

I will agree that socialization of young children is good also. That is where Sunday School and church come in nicely. :)

1. 90% of income? I'm not sure where you came up with that figure. Does it really cost around 40 grand to pay for a year of day care?

2. It's selfish to not give up your career because you have a child? Personally I think it's pathetic for a married woman to give up any career aspirations and settle in as a baby maker for the rest of her days.

[Simplex3]

It's nowhere near 90%. If I had a child right now, it would be around %35 of my wifes income to send the child to daycare. That is a much nicer figure than 100%, IMO.
So 65% of your wife's income is better than raising your own children. I'm shocked that you work in the govt.

[Saulbadguy]

So 65% of your wife's income is better than raising your own children. I'm shocked that you work in the govt.
That 65% will come in very handy when saving for my childs college. It would be tough to do both (stay at home AND save for a childs college).

Daycare does not raise children, parents do. I don't know why that is such a tough concept to comprehend.

[Simplex3]

2. It's selfish to not give up your career because you have a child? Personally I think it's pathetic for a married woman to give up any career aspirations and settle in as a baby maker for the rest of her days.
ROFL

There's always the option of NOT HAVING KIDS.

Please take that option. Darwin will thank you.

BTW, my wife had a career before kids and she'll have one after kids. Oh, and before I forget and get punched in the sack, she has one now. RAISING OUR KIDS.

[eazyb81]

That 65% will come in very handy when saving for my childs college. It would be tough to do both (stay at home AND save for a childs college).

Daycare does not raise children, parents do. I don't know why that is such a tough concept to comprehend.

Anyone that cares about their kids would home-college them.

[Saulbadguy]

1. 90% of income? I'm not sure where you came up with that figure. Does it really cost around 40 grand to pay for a year of day care?

2. It's selfish to not give up your career because you have a child? Personally I think it's pathetic for a married woman to give up any career aspirations and settle in as a baby maker for the rest of her days.
#2 - I'd love to give up any career aspirations to be a stay at home dad. Put up with actual shit than bullshit - it would be much easier.

[Simplex3]

Anyone that cares about their kids would home-college them.
No, at that point they're 18 and unless you've f**ked up it's time for them to leave.

[eazyb81]

ROFL

There's always the option of NOT HAVING KIDS.

Please take that option. Darwin will thank you.

BTW, my wife had a career before kids and she'll have one after kids. Oh, and before I forget and get punched in the sack, she has one now. RAISING OUR KIDS.

So in your world, it's either:

1. Mom must stay home, give up career, and raise children, or

2. Not have kids.

Are you one of the Geico cavemen?

Also, i'm sure your wife will have a scintillating career once the kids grow up. Her 5+ years of cleaning diapers would surely trump the professional experience her peers will have on their resume.

[Hydrae]

1. 90% of income? I'm not sure where you came up with that figure. Does it really cost around 40 grand to pay for a year of day care?

2. It's selfish to not give up your career because you have a child? Personally I think it's pathetic for a married woman to give up any career aspirations and settle in as a baby maker for the rest of her days.


Sorry, I know that 90% number seems to have bothered a lot of people from the reaction. I come from a more blue collar type background and have seen mothers working fast food jobs while the kids are in day care. At that point, yes 90% of their income is needed to pay for the child care. Like I said, that makes no sense to me.

[KC Kings]

It's nowhere near 90%. If I had a child right now, it would be around %35 of my wifes income to send the child to daycare. That is a much nicer figure than 100%, IMO.

That is if your wife has a good paying skillset and expereince in that skill set. We got married when my wife was 22 and she didn't go to college. My coworker sitting right next to me said he pays $1200 a month for child care for 2 kids. For my wife with no skills, ( at least none that I want her using on other people ;) ), no degree, and no experience, she isn't going to get a great job. Just to cover the $1200 in daycare ($300 a week), is $7.50 an hour. Add in taxes, work clothes, work shoes, extra gas money, etc... and a good portion of what she would be making would be nullified.

That being said, it would be easy for somebody to reply that she stays at home because we have no other choice, which would be completely incorrect. We had another choice in 2000, and we are in this situation because we made the decision to have my wife quit her $15 an hour job when she got pregnant.

[JBucc]

So on average, how much does a Daycare cost a week these days? I mean, in the Midwest not in Cali or something where everything's a bazillion dollars.

[KC Kings]

So in your world, it's either:

Also, i'm sure your wife will have a scintillating career once the kids grow up. Her 5+ years of cleaning diapers would surely trump the professional experience her peers will have on their resume.

Your exactly right. It is called priorities. Some make the highest priority doing what is best for the kids, and others put personal goals and making more money to buy more stuff on on what is more important.

[Saulbadguy]

That is if your wife has a good paying skillset and expereince in that skill set. We got married when my wife was 22 and she didn't go to college. My coworker sitting right next to me said he pays $1200 a month for child care for 2 kids. For my wife with no skills, ( at least none that I want her using on other people ;) ), no degree, and no experience, she isn't going to get a great job. Just to cover the $1200 in daycare ($300 a week), is $7.50 an hour. Add in taxes, work clothes, work shoes, extra gas money, etc... and a good portion of what she would be making would be nullified.

That being said, it would be easy for somebody to reply that she stays at home because we have no other choice, which would be completely incorrect. We had another choice in 2000, and we are in this situation because we made the decision to have my wife quit her $15 an hour job when she got pregnant.
That is why you wait to have children. :)

[Saulbadguy]

So on average, how much does a Daycare cost a week these days? I mean, in the Midwest not in Cali or something where everything's a bazillion dollars.
It scales on the age of the child. When I worked at the daycare Infants were $120 a week.

[Saulbadguy]

Sorry, I know that 90% number seems to have bothered a lot of people from the reaction. I come from a more blue collar type background and have seen mothers working fast food jobs while the kids are in day care. At that point, yes 90% of their income is needed to pay for the child care. Like I said, that makes no sense to me.
That would make no sense to me either. If my wife were working fast food and had a child, she would stay home. Since she does not work fast food, it would make little sense for her to stay home.

[vailpass]

I can't imagine someone other than my wife or me being there to see our kids' first step, laugh, new word or any of the thousand and one other things that make being a parent worth while.
I've seen a lot of professional associates, mostly women, try to act like they don't wish they were at home with their kids instead of working all day. Not one of them convinced me they really felt that way.
How sad to have someone else raise your kids.

[KC Kings]

That 65% will come in very handy when saving for my childs college. It would be tough to do both (stay at home AND save for a childs college).

Daycare does not raise children, parents do. I don't know why that is such a tough concept to comprehend.

My wife stays at home. We have our kids in educational play groups. I read to them every night. I coach every sports team. We do homework together. Each kid had 2 years of preschool, (a couple hours a day 3 times a week). We get 50 different parenting magazines and take advice from all of them to raise our kids the best that we can.

However, we are not licensed teachers or trained coaches, and my kids have learned a great deal from the other teachers, assistant coaches, etc... that they come into contact with. I worked with my son for 3 weeks trying to teach him how to tie his shoe. The first day of pre-school he tells his teacher that, and in 5 minutes she taught him how. I play with my kids all of the time, and was struggling to find the right way to explain to my daughter how to throw a baseball. Another kids dad shows her the "bird" technique and she instantly gets it and is making good throws. Daycare might not raise a child, but it has take a significant part of raising them?

[Saulbadguy]

Your exactly right. It is called priorities. Some make the highest priority doing what is best for the kids, and others put personal goals and making more money to buy more stuff on on what is more important.
You have to do what is best your family, I agree. Some families can not afford to have a stay at home mom. Some families would rather pay for their child's college rather than have their child work through school. I wouldn't fault anyone for sending their child to daycare, nor would I fault anyone for having a stay at home mom (or dad). It's all about priorities, I wouldn't call either right or wrong.

[Simplex3]

So in your world, it's either:

1. Mom must stay home, give up career, and raise children, or

2. Not have kids.

Are you one of the Geico cavemen?

Also, i'm sure your wife will have a scintillating career once the kids grow up. Her 5+ years of cleaning diapers would surely trump the professional experience her peers will have on their resume.
Nobody said it had to be the mom. I worked out of the house and was the kids' in-home parent for a while.

And just to be clear, my wife was offered a CFO position with a growing insurance company just last month, despite the fact that "all" she's done is clean diapers for 5+ years. She turned it down because her primary focus is raising our kids.

I guess some of us are more concerned with things not related to money, power, and status. I'm pretty sure when my wife and I are lying on our death beds we won't be wondering "Hmmm, did I work enough hours?" or "I think I probably should have worked more...". I can assure you I won't be thinking "Damnit. I really wanted that Mercedes before I died." To each their own, though.

[crazycoffey]

As with many major life decisions the key word is balance. I agree mostly with Saulbadguy (crap, the world must be ending) you do have to do whats best for you and your family with what you have.

My first wife stayed home for a few years with the kids then daycare came in a year for one and two years for the second - before they were set to start elementry school.

The second wife, we are trying now, believes in daycare and if the decision is up to her we would put the kid in daycare only a few weeks to a few months after birth. So I will probably end up the stay at home parent....

I personally believe the kids need to go to learn social skills before class officially starts, you can do half days for a few months to a year and then full time for a few more prior to starting official school, plus I want to make more money and get ready for their college..... However I think the kids need to be old enough to communicate to you any problems that could be happening at the daycare. I put the first ones in a daycare that had webcams, so I could check in periodically through the day, I liked that option....

[vailpass]

So in your world, it's either:

1. Mom must stay home, give up career, and raise children, or

2. Not have kids.

Are you one of the Geico cavemen?

Also, i'm sure your wife will have a scintillating career once the kids grow up. Her 5+ years of cleaning diapers would surely trump the professional experience her peers will have on their resume.

Typical response that springs from the guilt of people who let someone else raise their kids.
Note the bitter and groundless dig at the female's career options should she raise her own children.
A woman's career is doomed if she stays home when her kids are young.
Now who sounds like the Geico caveman?

[Mile High Mania]

I think it's insane for anyone to point the finger at others and say what they're doing is wrong with something like this. Everyone has different scenarios with their lives. I think most people would love to avoid daycare for the most part, but it's not reality.

It's all about picking the right day care and deciding the right amount of time during the day/week for your kid(s) to be there.

My kids go a few hours a day for the interaction with other kids and we've picked a place where they actually learn things. Our goal is for our kids to be as well prepared for kindergarten and functioning around other kids as best as possible.

I wouldn't want my kids there for 8 hours a day, 5 days a week, but some folks can't make that happen.

The thing I find odd is that I see moms that are obviously stay at home moms and they take their kids to day care full time. I wouldn't do that, but that's their decision. I have no idea what goes on at their home and I can only assume.

Anyone here saying "you shouldn't have kids if you're not going to keep them out of daycare" is being a bit high and mighty.

There's a balance to all of this as someone said, and it's your job to find that balance and you shouldn't have to worry about people judging you.

I have three kids - 5 yr, 3 yr and 9 months. The 5 and 3 yr old have a lot of great friends and they learn a lot by going to the place we take them at church a few hours for 3 days a week.

The kids are learning a lot from us (I hope) and I know they're learning a lot from the school. I also know that their interaction with other kids is going to do them well when they go to kindergarten.

[Saulbadguy]

I think most people would love to avoid daycare for the most part, but it's not reality.

That's a good post. I think 99% of people would avoid daycare if they could sustain the same lifestyle they are used to and not take any hit financially.

[Simplex3]

The second wife, we are trying now, believes in daycare and if the decision is up to her we would put the kid in daycare only a few weeks to a few months after birth. So I will probably end up the stay at home parent....
I've seen the results of that between my two kids and several I know that were at daycare damn near from birth. It's simply not possible for the daycare kids to get the kind of attention and work that a kid who has one-on-one with mom or dad does.

As for the whole "we make money to prep them for college" argument. My wife and I put several thousand dollars into an education savings account when each kid was born. When they're 18 they'll get the keys to that account and will be allowed to do whatever they want with it. It will, however, be the last of daddy's money they ever see. We also encourage my family to put money in those accounts for holidays instead of buying them more s**t they don't need. Get them one or two toys, then put the rest in the account.

Will that pay for their entire college? Maybe, maybe not. I don't really care either way. If I've done my job they'll be ready to handle themselves at 18. It'll be time for them to learn that they don't get s**t unless they work for it.

[Simplex3]

That's a good post. I think 99% of people would avoid daycare if they could sustain the same lifestyle they are used to and not take any hit financially.
See, this is what gets me. You've placed "sustaining the same lifestyle" over what you admit you would otherwise do. If you admit that you'd stay at home given no financial changes then you admit:

1. You think it's better to stay home with them.
2. You don't because it would cost you money.

That's just sad IMO.

Over the last almost 6 years my wife and I have easily "lost" $400k in income due to her not working and my not being willing to travel. You know what, though? I'm not sitting here missing a single penny of that. My wife was there with every first that my kids ever did and if I wasn't there at the time I was there that night. There's no amount of money you could give me to take those memories away.

:shrug:

[Saulbadguy]

I've seen the results of that between my two kids and several I know that were at daycare damn near from birth. It's simply not possible for the daycare kids to get the kind of attention and work that a kid who has one-on-one with mom or dad does.

As for the whole "we make money to prep them for college" argument. My wife and I put several thousand dollars into an education savings account when each kid was born. When they're 18 they'll get the keys to that account and will be allowed to do whatever they want with it. It will, however, be the last of daddy's money they ever see. We also encourage my family to put money in those accounts for holidays instead of buying them more s**t they don't need. Get them one or two toys, then put the rest in the account.

Will that pay for their entire college? Maybe, maybe not. I don't really care either way. If I've done my job they'll be ready to handle themselves at 18. It'll be time for them to learn that they don't get s**t unless they work for it.
It's not an "argument", it's what certain people choose to do. What is good for us may not be good for you. Your personal anecdotes are also not indicative of any sort of "norm", either. You can't tout them as the absolute truth.

[eazyb81]

Typical response that springs from the guilt of people who let someone else raise their kids.
Note the bitter and groundless dig at the female's career options should she raise her own children.
A woman's career is doomed if she stays home when her kids are young.
Now who sounds like the Geico caveman?

Every response has been "typical" so far, especially yours. This is obviously an issue that creates strong feelings on one side or the other, and those feelings are illustrated in the comments.

To your second point, for all intents and purposes, a woman's career is certainly hurt by taking a few years off. While she is taking care of her kids, her competitors continue to work, gain experience, and rise up the corporate ladder. If you want to stay in fantasyland and pretend that doesn't matter, go for it, but i'm not going to play along.

[Mile High Mania]

One of the keys we look for, aside from the place being affilliated with a church is the ratio of kids to teachers. The place we have our kids is 4:1 for all classes.

My son (5) is in a class with 7 kids and there are 2 teachers. My daughter (3) is in a class with 8 kids and 2 teachers. My youngest (9 months) just started going 2 days a week for 5 hours a day and there are 5 kids with 2 teachers and a floating assistant that works 3 rooms.

My wife and I both work from home and the only reason our youngest goes for 2 days is because it gives my wife 2 days with no kids for 5 hours in order to get a bulk of what she does in order.

It's all about what works best for you.

We also have funds set aside for the kids when they reach college age and much like the trust we have set up in case something happens to one or both of us, they're not getting the keys to the accounts at 18.

I don't think kids at that age have the mental ability to manage funds like that if left to their own discretion.

The funds are for college and should they decide not to go that route, then we'll use it to help them in whatever they do, but they're not getting the chance to blow that money by the age of 20. I recall how I was at 18.

[vailpass]

Every response has been "typical" so far, especially yours. This is obviously an issue that creates strong feelings on one side or the other, and those feelings are illustrated in the comments.

To your second point, for all intents and purposes, a woman's career is certainly hurt by taking a few years off. While she is taking care of her kids, her competitors continue to work, gain experience, and rise up the corporate ladder. If you want to stay in fantasyland and pretend that doesn't matter, go for it, but i'm not going to play along.

Do you have children? If so are they in day care?

[crazycoffey]

It's not an "argument", it's what certain people choose to do. What is good for us may not be good for you. Your personal anecdotes are also not indicative of any sort of "norm", either. You can't tout them as the absolute truth.


I agree the term "normal" is relative and all, but there are scientific answers to the "infants need touch/love" aurgument and that's what I hear from Simplex more than anything else.

the choice of maintaining a lifestyle over spending some quality time with the kids needs to be balanced and can not be one sided to either directions, IMO. You'll loose that battle, because either you did not love the kid enough or you didn't make enough money for him/her to do what all the other kids are doing. Try the word "balance" in making these big decisions it will work.

[Saulbadguy]

See, this is what gets me. You've placed "sustaining the same lifestyle" over what you admit you would otherwise do. If you admit that you'd stay at home given no financial changes then you admit:

1. You think it's better to stay home with them.
2. You don't because it would cost you money.

That's just sad IMO.

Over the last almost 6 years my wife and I have easily "lost" $400k in income due to her not working and my not being willing to travel. You know what, though? I'm not sitting here missing a single penny of that. My wife was there with every first that my kids ever did and if I wasn't there at the time I was there that night. There's no amount of money you could give me to take those memories away.

:shrug:
All things being equal - YES, I would rather stay at home with them. I will not say it is better because I, and you, simply do not know. Many studies have been done and it's all inconclusive. There is the "socialization" argument for daycare, and there is the "attention" argument for keeping them at home. I realize there are ways to get both in, and that is probably the best solution, but again, that is opinion, and I don't think anyone can say factually that one is better than the other.

I'm 25 and my wife is 23. We are doing pretty well financially but if we had children that would end pretty quickly. Personally, I would like to put my child through college and have enough left over for retirement. Given our current incomes, that would not be possible if my wife stayed home w/ our child(ren)..which we don't have ;)

So, what is it? Stay home with my child and possibly rob them of the opportunity of a higher education, and extend my career another 10+ years, or send them to daycare 30-40 hours a week and get all those things? Getting both, at this point, is not an option. Hopefully by the time I am ready to have children (which may be never..who knows?), I can do both.

[Simplex3]

To your second point, for all intents and purposes, a woman's career is certainly hurt by taking a few years off. While she is taking care of her kids, her competitors continue to work, gain experience, and rise up the corporate ladder. If you want to stay in fantasyland and pretend that doesn't matter, go for it, but i'm not going to play along.
You're completely missing the point. What you state is fact. Her "rivals" are still working and moving up that almighty corporate ladder.

The problem with your position is we don't care. That's not nearly as important to us as our kids. So, when I tell you that doesn't matter to my wife and I it's not some fantasyland, it's fact.

[Saulbadguy]

We also have funds set aside for the kids when they reach college age and much like the trust we have set up in case something happens to one or both of us, they're not getting the keys to the accounts at 18.

I don't think kids at that age have the mental ability to manage funds like that if left to their own discretion.

The funds are for college and should they decide not to go that route, then we'll use it to help them in whatever they do, but they're not getting the chance to blow that money by the age of 20. I recall how I was at 18.
I sure as hell didn't have a financial grasp w/ that kind of money at the age of 18. I wish my parents would NOT have left me take that money. I blew it all on a car that I "had to have".

[crazycoffey]

BALANCE!!!!!


:p

[Saulbadguy]

Every response has been "typical" so far, especially yours. This is obviously an issue that creates strong feelings on one side or the other, and those feelings are illustrated in the comments.

To your second point, for all intents and purposes, a woman's career is certainly hurt by taking a few years off. While she is taking care of her kids, her competitors continue to work, gain experience, and rise up the corporate ladder. If you want to stay in fantasyland and pretend that doesn't matter, go for it, but i'm not going to play along.
Alot of stay at home moms go on and have successful careers after child-rearing, it is not uncommon. The need for workers is large enough at this juncture that it is not really an issue IMO.

Besides, homemakers do more than "change diapers" all day.

[eazyb81]

You're completely missing the point. What you state is fact. Her "rivals" are still working and moving up that almighty corporate ladder.

The problem with your position is we don't care. That's not nearly as important to us as our kids. So, when I tell you that doesn't matter to my wife and I it's not some fantasyland, it's fact.


That's great that you don't care, but this entire discussion is not centered around you, nor was my prior comment even directed at you.

[Simplex3]

So, what is it? Stay home with my child and possibly rob them of the opportunity of a higher education, and extend my career another 10+ years, or send them to daycare 30-40 hours a week and get all those things? Getting both, at this point, is not an option. Hopefully by the time I am ready to have children (which may be never..who knows?), I can do both.
So you haven't seen the little buggers lying there without their eyes open, holding onto your finger yet. As my dad told me: "The axis of the Earth is about to shift."

:)

My wife was absolutely sure that she was going back to work. No doubt about it. Career: full steam ahead. I was winding down a contract after my first was born and wouldn't be done for a week or two after my wife went back from maternity leave, so my mom was staying home with my daughter until I could get freed up. Mid-way through the first day of being back at work my wife calls me in tears "do you think I could just stay home instead of working?".

It's much easier to do than it sounds. Just don't spend more than one of you makes. Get a reasonable house and two reasonable cars. Take everything the other spouse makes and invest it. Then have kids. You won't miss the income from the second spouse. Also, you'd be appalled at how much you save having one of you at home, not buying work clothes, not eating lunch out, not having dinner out all the time, etc.

[Simplex3]

That's great that you don't care, but this entire discussion is not centered around you, nor was my prior comment even directed at you.
You still haven't answered if you even have a dog in this fight or if you're just blowing smoke out of your ass.

[crazycoffey]

Those on the stay home wagon, seem to think it's the end of work, ever. I'm sure it could be different from case to case, but I'm of the opinion to stay home with my new kid (because the wife makes more than me and isn't as genetically / spiritually inclined to stay at home) for about three to five years. Then it's back to work and still able to give all kinds of love to my kid.

The other ones already have the burden of being from a divorced family so there is so many other challenges to try and overcome for them....

[eazyb81]

Alot of stay at home moms go on and have successful careers after child-rearing, it is not uncommon. The need for workers is large enough at this juncture that it is not really an issue IMO.

Besides, homemakers do more than "change diapers" all day.

Of course there are exceptions to every rule. But for the most part, I think we can agree that any person's career would be side-tracked a bit by taking multiple years off from working, unless they were a teacher or something similar.

Again, if this isn't important to you, that's fine, but other people may have greater career aspirations.

[eazyb81]

You still haven't answered if you even have a dog in this fight or if you're just blowing smoke out of your ass.

If you're asking if I have kids, no I don't. I guess that must mean i'm "blowing smoke out of my ass".


:rolleyes:

[Simplex3]

Again, if this isn't important to you, that's fine, but other people may have greater career aspirations.
Great. So don't have kids. Kids need to be your #1 priority.

Once again, though: Your career won't be of any comfort to you when you're dying. It won't stop by and give you a hug. It won't honor you when you're gone. It won't remember you and tell future generations of careers about you.

Your money won't stop by, either.

[Simplex3]

If you're asking if I have kids, no I don't. I guess that must mean i'm "blowing smoke out of my ass".


:rolleyes:
Are you even dating anyone seriously?

My guess is you're under 25 and have never even been engaged. It's just a guess, though.

[crazycoffey]

If you're asking if I have kids, no I don't. I guess that must mean i'm "blowing smoke out of my ass".


:rolleyes:


yes it does, it's like a white man saying he knows what it's like to be a black man.

a man saying he knows what a woman feels like.

you don't have the frame of reference to logically make an educated statement on this matter, so shut it.

You think you know, so you want to keep yapping away like you know everything, but until you see a small version of you - you will not know. You can't. It is really that simple.

sorry if you don't like that, but it is the truth.

[crazycoffey]

Great. So don't have kids. Kids need to be your #1 priority.

Once again, though: Your career won't be of any comfort to you when you're dying. It won't stop by and give you a hug. It won't honor you when you're gone. It won't remember you and tell future generations of careers about you.

Your money won't stop by, either.


:clap::clap:
:clap::clap:
:clap::clap:

[Mile High Mania]

Just as a point of reference for my comment, I'm 36 and my wife is 37. We were married when we were 29 and she always said "I'd like to be home with the kids when we have them". I didn't really comprehend the financial aspect of that when I was in my 20's. I couldn't fathom the notion of us having kids and only me bringing in the money, plus at the time she had a kick ass corporate job.

Well, flash forward to 2001 when my wife was pregnant... she was laid off from that great job. I was doing well and given her condition, getting another job wasn't an option at that point. She took a shot at a career that allowed her to work from home on a very part time basis.

It was tight early on (6-7 months), but she has been able to build a nice career and a solid income while staying at home with the kids as they multiplied like gremlins from 1 to 3.

I wouldn't change any of it and with both of us working from home, we haven't missed any of the "firsts" even though they've spent some time at day care.

Again, it's all about the balancing act and what works best for you.

If you're in a situation where both parents work and you're considering or currently putting your kids through full time day care. I would ask that you do that math of what day care (and everything associated) is costing you compared to what the lowest income earning parent is generating.

Is the cost of day care full time nearly equal to or more than that other income? If it is... then it may be best to stay at home with the kids. A few of my friends made that decision with their wives.

Hell, I'd love to be a stay at home dad and never work again. But, it's not because it's easy... raising kids is hard work.

[Mile High Mania]

Ok - if you're single, in your 20's and you have no kids... then yeah, while you may have some insight through the experience of others... you really don't have a good clue as to the reality of this scenario.

As I mentioned, in my 20's ... my view was much different. I'm in my late 30s and realize that there is no cookie cutter solution, but there's nothing my kids love more than having mom and dad around all the time.

I travel some, but with both of us at home with them the bulk of the time... I love it.

It's a sensitive topic and for someone that isn't facing the situation to have such strong convictions one way or the other... it's a bit odd and out of place.

People change - my wife had great career aspirations, but life happened and she found a new career while raising a family and she's never been happier.

[NewChief]

So far what I've learned from this thread:

If you put your kids in daycare, you shouldn't have had kids.

If you put your kids in daycare, you're an inferior parent who only cares about material success.

If you put your kids in daycare, you're basically a self-serving piece of shit.

Those who don't put their kids in daycare are basically better human beings.

ROFL

Some sweet generalities on this thread.

[crazycoffey]

I'm in agreement with a donk fan......


dammit the world is coming to an end. :p

[crazycoffey]

Some sweet generalities on this thread.




you need to stop reading with your eyes closed.....

[Simplex3]

...as they multiplied like gremlins from 1 to 3.
LMAO

Hell, I'd love to be a stay at home dad and never work again. But, it's not because it's easy... raising kids is hard work.
Amen to that.

[Mile High Mania]

So far what I've learned from this thread:

If you put your kids in daycare, you shouldn't have had kids.

If you put your kids in daycare, you're an inferior parent who only cares about material success.

If you put your kids in daycare, you're basically a self-serving piece of shit.

Those who don't put their kids in daycare are basically better human beings.

ROFL

Some sweet generalities on this thread.

Solid selective reading on your part.

[Simplex3]

Solid selective reading on your part.
He's a liberal, what do you expect?

:evil:

[Mile High Mania]

I'm in agreement with a donk fan......


dammit the world is coming to an end. :p

Nah, just means you're getting wiser.

[Mile High Mania]

He's a liberal, what do you expect?

:evil:

Well, I'm more liberal than hardcore conservative... in general though, I pretty much hate all things about politics at this point. Let's not get off on that tangent though.

[NewChief]

Solid selective reading on your part.

I've seen all of these sentiments expressed in this thread. Do I need to point out the specific posts?

[Simplex3]

Well, I'm more liberal than hardcore conservative... in general though, I pretty much hate all things about politics at this point. Let's not get off on that tangent though.
I've pretty much detached myself from politics as well. I've found I'm a much happier person for it.

[Mile High Mania]

I've seen all of these sentiments expressed in this thread. Do I need to point out the specific posts?


I'm not saying that you didn't read them... but, if that's all you learned in this thread... you didn't read the whole thread. Reading comprehension must be an issue for you... settle the debate, were you a day care kid or not?

[Chazno]

So far what I've learned from this thread:

If you put your kids in daycare, you shouldn't have had kids.

If you put your kids in daycare, you're an inferior parent who only cares about material success.

If you put your kids in daycare, you're basically a self-serving piece of shit.

Those who don't put their kids in daycare are basically better human beings.

ROFL

Some sweet generalities on this thread.


I've learned that some kids would be better off in daycare than spending so much time with some of these parents.

[crazycoffey]

I've seen all of these sentiments expressed in this thread. Do I need to point out the specific posts?



I don't see how pointing out specific posts that we all have read already, will change our assessment from being different than yours.

I don't agree with your assessment, neither does MHM or Simplex, it would appear. But you want to try and prove your point anyway, so I think that would be an effort of futility.

[crazycoffey]

I've pretty much detached myself from politics as well. I've found I'm a much happier person for it.


yup

[NewChief]

And the point of my inflammatory post was that some people are saying some pretty hurtful things about parenting. I understand that people have strong feelings about it, but telling someone that they're a crappy parent or shouldn't have had kids or that they care more about money than kids is pretty shitty.

That being said, my son is in a mother-day-out program like some others. My wife works at home and has him in the afternoons until 4pm when I get home and take over so she can finish her day of work. I also have him all summer.

[crazycoffey]

Nah, just means you're getting wiser.


I took it more that you are wiser than I initially gave you credit....

[Mile High Mania]

And the point of my inflammatory post was that some people are saying some pretty hurtful things about parenting. I understand that people have strong feelings about it, but telling someone that they're a crappy parent or shouldn't have had kids or that they care more about money than kids is pretty shitty.

That being said, my son is in a mother-day-out program like some others. My wife works at home and has him in the afternoons until 4pm when I get home and take over so she can finish her day of work. I also have him all summer.

That's greatness... and one of my posts speaks to what you just said. I think it's out of place for people to point fingers and say what someone else is doing is wrong. Situations are all different.

Shall I find that post for you?

[Mile High Mania]

I've learned that some kids would be better off in daycare than spending so much time with some of these parents.

I don't know if your comment is referencing "these parents" typing in this thread, but I'm very certain that there are many parents that have no business being parents.

Getting laid and knocking someone up doesn't make you a parent... sadly though, some people haven't figured out how to stop having kids and the kids suffer.

[crazycoffey]

And the point of my inflammatory post was that some people are saying some pretty hurtful things about parenting. I understand that people have strong feelings about it, but telling someone that they're a crappy parent or shouldn't have had kids or that they care more about money than kids is pretty shitty.

That being said, my son is in a mother-day-out program like some others. My wife works at home and has him in the afternoons until 4pm when I get home and take over so she can finish her day of work. I also have him all summer.


That's greatness... and one of my posts speaks to what you just said. I think it's out of place for people to point fingers and say what someone else is doing is wrong. Situations are all different.

Shall I find that post for you?


and to add to what MHM is saying, I only remember telling the kid with no parenting experience that he didn't have the frame of reference to add a relevant aurgument, shall I find that one for you too?

[NewChief]

Heh. CC and MHM are being awfully defensive. I didn't say that my post were directed at you. They were directed at some of the general sentiments expressed in the thread.

[Mile High Mania]

NewChief... the lesson of the thread can be summed up in the following manner.

1 - Sounds like the majority of parents would like to avoid full time day care.
2 - Item #1 is not reality
3 - Parents need to find a nice balance to work and raising their kids
4 - Nobody should deliver a groin kick to someone else for the decisions they've made. Disagreements are going to happen, but it doesn't make either decision "more right" than the other.
5 - All decisions that parents make should be about what is best for the kids.
6 - You don't have to be a parent to have a valid argument, but it certainly helps.
7 - It's a message board, don't take offense to anything being discussed and add value...

[Mile High Mania]

Heh. CC and MHM are being awfully defensive. I didn't say that my post were directed at you. They were directed at some of the general sentiments expressed in the thread.

I'm not defensive at all... thinking that I am is kinda silly.

[crazycoffey]

Heh. CC and MHM are being awfully defensive. I didn't say that my post were directed at you. They were directed at some of the general sentiments expressed in the thread.

Defensive? Pot, you're looking black - love Kettle.


Not at all, I'm offensive, or even down right assaulting, but if you want to go that direction than it would be fair to say your "assessment of the thread" didn't take into account many of my posts, so therefore by your own silent omission, not truly an assessment at all.




Now I'm just being silly, I hope you can see that.

[crazycoffey]

NewChief... the lesson of the thread can be summed up in the following manner.

1 - Sounds like the majority of parents would like to avoid full time day care.
2 - Item #1 is not reality
3 - Parents need to find a nice balance to work and raising their kids
4 - Nobody should deliver a groin kick to someone else for the decisions they've made. Disagreements are going to happen, but it doesn't make either decision "more right" than the other.
5 - All decisions that parents make should be about what is best for the kids.
6 - You don't have to be a parent to have a valid argument, but it certainly helps.
7 - It's a message board, don't take offense to anything being discussed and add value...


man, you're no fun. Damn donk fan.... :p you just killed the thread.

[Mr. Plow]

So on average, how much does a Daycare cost a week these days? I mean, in the Midwest not in Cali or something where everything's a bazillion dollars.


Right now, we pay roughly $450 every two weeks for two children.

[Mr. Plow]

Why did you have them if you're going to see them 2 hours a day and have someone else raise them? Justify it to yourself any way you'd like but you spend about 1/3 as much time with your child as the daycare lady does. They're more her kids than yours. You can keep congratulating yourselves on finding a provider that mimics you (or what you wish you were), though.

The stupidity level just dropped a notch in here if you can believe that.

[vailpass]

If you're asking if I have kids, no I don't. I guess that must mean i'm "blowing smoke out of my ass".


:rolleyes:

I thought as much. Take a seat.

[Mr. Plow]

So far what I've learned from this thread:

If you put your kids in daycare, you shouldn't have had kids.

If you put your kids in daycare, you're an inferior parent who only cares about material success.

If you put your kids in daycare, you're basically a self-serving piece of shit.

Those who don't put their kids in daycare are basically better human beings.

ROFL

Some sweet generalities on this thread.


That's pretty much the breakdown right there.

[Mile High Mania]

That's pretty much the breakdown right there.

Guess you didn't read it all either.

[vailpass]

So far what I've learned from this thread:

If you put your kids in daycare, you shouldn't have had kids.

If you put your kids in daycare, you're an inferior parent who only cares about material success.

If you put your kids in daycare, you're basically a self-serving piece of shit.

Those who don't put their kids in daycare are basically better human beings.

ROFL

Some sweet generalities on this thread.

Strange. What I've seen is the concensus is that if at all possible parents would like to be home and raise their children until they are of school age.
Not all, in fact most, parents can't pull this off due to financial realities.
There is a certain amount of guilt involved with parents who leave their kids in day care 8 hours a day 40 hours a week.
People without children have no business commenting on this subject.

[ZepSinger]

I thought as much. Take a seat.

Exactly. I don't care how much you think you know, until you have kids YOU DON'T KNOW. So until you do- just shut yer yapper because you're not authorized to give a relevant answer on the subject of parenting.

[crazycoffey]

That's pretty much the breakdown right there.


REPOST

[Mr. Plow]

Guess you didn't read it all either.

Oh, I read the whole thing. I got the same feeling from what some of you have said. Because I have my children in daycare, my wife and I are wasting time with our kids, putting material possessions and money above them, and just not raising them properly.

Those of you with stay at home mom's, what happens when they are going to school for 8 hours a day? Is that wasting time with them? Should you home school?

To each their own I guess. My wife stayed home with each child for the first 3 months or so. From there, she works 8:30a-3p M-F. I'm the "coach" of all the teams. I take my oldest son golfing. I spend my evenings playing games and wrestling with all of them.

But, I guess I'm wasting time.

[crazycoffey]

Oh, I read the whole thing. I got the same feeling from what some of you have said. Because I have my children in daycare, my wife and I are wasting time with our kids, putting material possessions and money above them, and just not raising them properly.

Those of you with stay at home mom's, what happens when they are going to school for 8 hours a day? Is that wasting time with them? Should you home school?

To each their own I guess. My wife stayed home with each child for the first 3 months or so. From there, she works 8:30a-3p M-F. I'm the "coach" of all the teams. I take my oldest son golfing. I spend my evenings playing games and wrestling with all of them.

But, I guess I'm wasting time.


you're not wasting your time, get your head back up and buck up lil camper.....

you are not in that mold you are trying to put yourself into.

1) it's your life and your children, just do your best.
2) 8-3 isn't as bad as 8-6.
3) coach material makes up for the "distant" parent that never sees, holds, cuddles, reads to, plays with, interacts with thier kids. You don't fit this mold and don't put yourself there. You also shouldn't need me to tell you this..... :p

[vailpass]

Oh, I read the whole thing. I got the same feeling from what some of you have said. Because I have my children in daycare, my wife and I are wasting time with our kids, putting material possessions and money above them, and just not raising them properly.

Those of you with stay at home mom's, what happens when they are going to school for 8 hours a day? Is that wasting time with them? Should you home school?

To each their own I guess. My wife stayed home with each child for the first 3 months or so. From there, she works 8:30a-3p M-F. I'm the "coach" of all the teams. I take my oldest son golfing. I spend my evenings playing games and wrestling with all of them.

But, I guess I'm wasting time.

Get off this godamned message board and go hug your kids!!!
:p

[Mile High Mania]

Oh, I read the whole thing. I got the same feeling from what some of you have said. Because I have my children in daycare, my wife and I are wasting time with our kids, putting material possessions and money above them, and just not raising them properly.

Those of you with stay at home mom's, what happens when they are going to school for 8 hours a day? Is that wasting time with them? Should you home school?

To each their own I guess. My wife stayed home with each child for the first 3 months or so. From there, she works 8:30a-3p M-F. I'm the "coach" of all the teams. I take my oldest son golfing. I spend my evenings playing games and wrestling with all of them.

But, I guess I'm wasting time.

I don't think you should have taken my comments in a manner that gave you that impression. I'm not saying that someone else didn't post similar sounding comments, but that's his opinion.

I can't for the life of me find where the overall feeling of this thread implied that people putting kids in daycare were total bastards that didn't love their kids.

[crazycoffey]

I'm the bastard on this thread, I divorced my first bitch and now only see my boys a total of a couple months a year.

the american dream a wife to cheat on me and two kids to grow up and hate me....

[vailpass]

I'm the bastard on this thread, I divorced my first bitch and now only see my boys a total of a couple months a year.

the american dream a wife to cheat on me and two kids to grow up and hate me....

It aint like that. When they are old enough they will figure out what happened and they won't blame you anymore. Until then just be around whenever you can.

[NewChief]

I don't think you should have taken my comments in a manner that gave you that impression. I'm not saying that someone else didn't post similar sounding comments, but that's his opinion.

I can't for the life of me find where the overall feeling of this thread implied that people putting kids in daycare were total bastards that didn't love their kids.

Blame that asshole, Simplex3. :p

[Mr. Plow]

you're not wasting your time, get your head back up and buck up lil camper.....

you are not in that mold you are trying to put yourself into.

1) it's your life and your children, just do your best.
2) 8-3 isn't as bad as 8-6.
3) coach material makes up for the "distant" parent that never sees, holds, cuddles, reads to, plays with, interacts with thier kids. You don't fit this mold and don't put yourself there. You also shouldn't need me to tell you this..... :p


I know I'm not in that mold. But from the sounds of some, any amount of daycare is the wrong choice.

The people Simplex should be talking to are the people that work 9a-5p but take their kids at 7am and don't pick them up until 9pm.

[Mr. Plow]

I don't think you should have taken my comments in a manner that gave you that impression. I'm not saying that someone else didn't post similar sounding comments, but that's his opinion.

I can't for the life of me find where the overall feeling of this thread implied that people putting kids in daycare were total bastards that didn't love their kids.


Not from you. One person. I lumped everyone else in. My bad.

[jAZ]

My wife and I just had our first son, who's now 15 weeks old. I went back to work after 1 week. She went back to work after 6 weeks. We both are able to work from home and tag-team on care. When she has to go into the office, if I'm not able to be at home at that time, she is able to take him with her.

This will probably only last until the fall (9 months old). Then she will probably have to work part of the day in the office. I imagine we will have to look into a nanny, or day care part of the day.

Either way, I'm HUGELY fortunate to have a work/life arrangement that permits me to be at home helping raise my son each day.

[eazyb81]

Are you even dating anyone seriously?

My guess is you're under 25 and have never even been engaged. It's just a guess, though.

For the record, I am in my mid-twenties and have been in a serious relationship for the past few years now. No I don't have kids, but we have talked about it and how we will raise them. Simply ignoring the comments/opinions of anyone that doesn't have kids is highly ignorant, and makes me feel stronger in my beliefs.

Personally, I don't understand why this situation has to be so black and white - can't you have a career AND have normal, well-behaved kids that you see on a fairly regular basis? Some of you act like putting kids in daycare for any amount of time is the first step in raising a degenerate sociopath.

[Demonpenz]

I am sure when you are old you will forget all those shitty hours at wor but you will never forget the days when the kids were young.

[Mile High Mania]

For the record, I am in my mid-twenties and have been in a serious relationship for the past few years now. No I don't have kids, but we have talked about it and how we will raise them. Simply ignoring the comments/opinions of anyone that doesn't have kids is highly ignorant, and makes me feel stronger in my beliefs.

Personally, I don't understand why this situation has to be so black and white - can't you have a career AND have normal, well-behaved kids that you see on a fairly regular basis? Some of you act like putting kids in daycare for any amount of time is the first step in raising a degenerate sociopath.

I'll let Simplex fight the majority of that battle, but I don't think any of the others are suggesting what you typed in your last comment. I think the norm for most families is daycare for several reasons.

I put in bold the comment that made me chuckle... why would it make you feel stronger? Highly ignorant?

[Mile High Mania]

The comments on this thread made me do some googling... and as I did this, I've figured out that we don't do "daycare", it's "preschool".

Several of the comments on the "downside" list at this site are incredibly lame. There are some good points for either, but lots of BS too.

http://www.babys-first-year.com/baby-articles/considering-daycare-the-pros-and-cons.html

Another comparison:
http://www.babycenter.com/general/5937.html

----

In the end, it's all about balance and what's best for the kid(s) in your specific situation.

[tooge]

It really boils down to this. Numerous longitudinal studies have demonstrated that the basis of the inate bond between a parent and a child occurs from birth up until the age of three or four. Of course, lots of bonding occurs thereafter, but the trust and confidence in one another is built at that time. These formative years, it is absolutely importatn that children spend as much time with mom and dad as possible. Yeah, kids may do fine in school and not get as sick yada yada, but having a trusting relationship with ones children is more important, because I for one would rather have my kids listen to my advice (at all ages) rather that that of their peers. Too much time in daycre will have them (according to these studies) trust the advice of theri peers rather than their parents. These studies also support the same evidence with single parent families. I was fortunate to be able to have my wife stay hame with both kids, but if I hadnt, we would have either cut back or waited until we could afford it. Not saying this is the only way, but the only way for us.

[bogie]

Why did you have them if you're going to see them 2 hours a day and have someone else raise them? Justify it to yourself any way you'd like but you spend about 1/3 as much time with your child as the daycare lady does. They're more her kids than yours. You can keep congratulating yourselves on finding a provider that mimics you (or what you wish you were), though.

I'll respond to this before I read the entire thread. Shut the F*ck up!

[bogie]

Well I had to stop reading the thread. The more I read the more I got pissed. I can't believe how many judgemental people are on here. Just because something works for you, does not mean it works for everyone else.

[KC Kings]

Those of you with stay at home mom's, what happens when they are going to school for 8 hours a day? Is that wasting time with them? Should you home school?


What happens then? The wife realizes that she might have to get a job and go to work everyday, and she tricks you into having another baby.
My kids are 7, 5, and 5 months.

Seriously though, my wife volunteers at school, is involved with all of the school and extra activities, and most importantly has my dinner ready and waiting on me when I get home from work every night.

Every situation is unique. Even if 90% of the wifes income goes to paying for childcare, there are lots of people in the world where that extra 10% makes the difference between choosing groceries or paying the electric bill. I would gladly trade my mom staying home, in exchange for me not having to wear ProWings and Rustlers to school.

There are a lot of selfish parents, including friends and co-workers of mine, that choose to put their kids in day care so they can continue to support their 3-car garage 3,000 sq ft house payments, furnished with Crate and Barrel furniture. These are the same people that take a day off of work, but leave their kids in day care. Why have kids? Because the Jones have kids, and they make such cute family Christmas pictures.

People keep looking at the one extreme of crappy parenting that involves day care, and try to apply it to everybody that has kids in day care.

[KC Kings]

Well I had to stop reading the thread. The more I read the more I got pissed. I can't believe how many judgemental people are on here. Just because I don't love my kids as much as you do and would rather make money than memories, you have no right to judge my selfishness.

Fixed your post. You'll really be pissed now!

[bogie]

Fixed your post. You'll really be pissed now!

I going to assume that's sarcasm.

[Mr. Plow]

Fixed your post. You'll really be pissed now!


ROFL

[Mile High Mania]

Well I had to stop reading the thread. The more I read the more I got pissed. I can't believe how many judgemental people are on here. Just because something works for you, does not mean it works for everyone else.

I got as high as 'one' when counting the judgemental people... how high did you get?

[Sully]

Well I had to stop reading the thread. The more I read the more I got pissed. I can't believe how many judgemental people are on here. Just because something works for you, does not mean it works for everyone else.
To be fair, there have been a couple of posters in this thread that have allowed for "different strokes for different folks."
Very few have actually done what you are seeing.

[bogie]

To be fair, there have been a couple of posters in this thread that have allowed for "different strokes for different folks."
Very few have actually done what you are seeing.

Like I said, I didn't read the entire thread. I'm a firm believer in different strokes for different folks. There are imperfections on both sides.

[BucEyedPea]

"As if I don’t already feel guilty for putting my son in day care at the tender age of three months, a new study shows that the more time children spend in center-based care before kindergarten, the more likely they’ll fight, disobey and argue, according to their 6th grade teachers.

My personal observation of my own daugther and other's children is this is correct. Including the health care aspect...only I caught everything instead.
As for later academic performance, well we should develop the whole child. Seems to me that those taught reading earlier than others, may be ahead for a period of time but most catch up later.

Anyhow, I was lucky the first two years as I had a former K teacher come in a couple days a week but not 'til after the first year. I was nearby and would work and come out for meals and breaks. My kid loved her.

By age 2, I did use dc but only part-time. No one was home for her to play with. However, I would increase her hours when I had more work and deadlines. Those times, she was out of control. When I lowered my work hours again, she was back to a normal well behaved toddler. But I spent time with her and did things with her.

I definitely noticed the other toddlers who were in the dc facility from 7 AM - 6 PM daily were wild animals or cried a lot more. What I found sad was some of them would reach up to me, to be held...they just wanted and needed more personal attention. I felt sorry for them and would pick them up.

So, I think full-time daycare is a crime.

It costs money to work to and if one adds it up, it's often not even worth it.
I feel many do not really have to work as much as they think. A friend of mine who makes well over $160k used it full-time plus nannies at night. In the early grades of school it was replaced with skating, music, and all kinds of structured activities plus baby-sitters at night. Kid had a schedule that would rival a CEO. Plus she was out-of-control...but brilliant.

Just my observation.

[pikesome]

I'll throw me $.02 in here since this is near and dear to me ATM. I stay home with my 2.5 year-old and his 12 year-old brother goes to school. Staying home isn't something you do instead of a job, it is a job. Just like throwing your suit on and doing whatever it is you do. I get "paid" not in hard cash but in a lowered cost of living. I don't have to pay for daycare (it starts at aprox $800/mo in my area), I cook most of our meals so we eat better and cheaper. I also don't pay for a second car since my wife's work is at night and we don't "need" one. Staying home also allows us to work with the hassles that come with my wife's chosen career as a nurse. I work 12 hour days, the youngest gets up about 8 AM and goes down about 8 PM, seven days a week. My wife helps when she can but after 4, 12 hour shifts in a week she's not able to completely take over. I also have far more experience with my kids, I can do any and all child care tasks easier and faster than my wife can.

Even if you completely ignore the "time spent with the kids" factor, it seems like a waste to pay someone for a job I can do better. I'm not "unemployed", I do a job far more important than 90% of people. And I get to play with my kids.

[bogie]

We have a family across the street from us with a lazy ass woman that has full time help at home so she can go to her bedroom and sleep or do whatever she wants to do other than raising her child. I have other friends that both work their ass off so they can live in a district that offers an excellent public school. They have one child in school and one preschool age. Their motivation is to stay in this district so both of their children can go to this great public school. Unless they are both working they simply can't afford to live in this area.

[bogie]

I'll throw me $.02 in here since this is near and dear to me ATM. I stay home with my 2.5 year-old and his 12 year-old brother goes to school. Staying home isn't something you do instead of a job, it is a job. Just like throwing your suit on and doing whatever it is you do. I get "paid" not in hard cash but in a lowered cost of living. I don't have to pay for daycare (it starts at aprox $800/mo in my area), I cook most of our meals so we eat better and cheaper. I also don't pay for a second car since my wife's work is at night and we don't "need" one. Staying home also allows us to work with the hassles that come with my wife's chosen career as a nurse. I work 12 hour days, the youngest gets up about 8 AM and goes down about 8 PM, seven days a week. My wife helps when she can but after 4, 12 hour shifts in a week she's not able to completely take over. I also have far more experience with my kids, I can do any and all child care tasks easier and faster than my wife can.

Even if you completely ignore the "time spent with the kids" factor, it seems like a waste to pay someone for a job I can do better. I'm not "unemployed", I do a job far more important than 90% of people. And I get to play with my kids.

I'm very happy this works for you. You're fortunate your wife makes enough $ for this to happen. Not everyone has the same opportunity.

[BucEyedPea]

Staying home isn't something you do instead of a job, it is a job. Just like throwing your suit on and doing whatever it is you do.
Well good for you! I'm really glad you said this because it's the truth. Too often care of a house with young children in it tearing it up 24/7 can be more work than full-time 40-hr-a-week job. This kind of work is so denigrated in today's society as doing nothing. It's easier in some ways to go to work each day dealing with adults than being home with little ones.

[Simplex3]

Blame that asshole, Simplex3. :p
I have a disclaimer in my sig for a reason.

[pikesome]

I'm very happy this works for you. You're fortunate your wife makes enough $ for this to happen. Not everyone has the same opportunity.

Without painting to board of a stroke here, some people don't try hard enough. I'm with Simplex, kinda, on a lot of this. It is way too complicated of a subject for a definite blueprint but I see many people put their own wants and desires before what is best for the family or the kids.

[Simplex3]

For the record, I am in my mid-twenties and have been in a serious relationship for the past few years now. No I don't have kids, but we have talked about it and how we will raise them. Simply ignoring the comments/opinions of anyone that doesn't have kids is highly ignorant, and makes me feel stronger in my beliefs.

Personally, I don't understand why this situation has to be so black and white - can't you have a career AND have normal, well-behaved kids that you see on a fairly regular basis? Some of you act like putting kids in daycare for any amount of time is the first step in raising a degenerate sociopath.
My question to you is this:

What the f**k is so important about a career? What will it ever give you in return that really matters in the long run?

[Mr. Plow]

Maybe the ability for your children to go to the best schools? Get the best education? Have the clothes they need? Food? Shelter?

I think a career can give a lot in return.

[Simplex3]

Without painting to board of a stroke here, some people don't try hard enough. I'm with Simplex, kinda, on a lot of this. It is way too complicated of a subject for a definite blueprint but I see many people put their own wants and desires before what is best for the family or the kids.
You f**king jackass bigot f**k. Don't paint me like that.


:p

[pikesome]

Well good for you! I'm really glad you said this because it's the truth. Too often care of a house with young children in it tearing it up 24/7 can be more work than full-time 40-hr-a-week job. This kind of work is so denigrated in today's society as doing nothing. It's easier in some ways to go to work each day dealing with adults than being home with little ones.

This is why my mother hates feminists with a passion. She has always felt like they denigrate her for staying at home and taking care of the kids.

[Simplex3]

Maybe the ability for your children to go to the best schools? Get the best education? Have the clothes they need? Food? Shelter?

I think a career can give a lot in return.
My kids are both dressed every day. They go to good schools, though the American education system is a f**king joke. We challenge them at home, by the time the school goes over something it's old hat to my kids. You don't need money for education in this country.

You'd also be surprised what you can feed and house your family on if you spend wisely.

Remember, "poor" does not equal cable TV, two mobile phones, two cars, a big screen, eating out 5+ times a week, buying the name brand at the store...

[bogie]

My question to you is this:

What the f**k is so important about a career? What will it ever give you in return that really matters in the long run?

This question is just too stupid to answer.

[pikesome]

Maybe the ability for your children to go to the best schools? Get the best education? Have the clothes they need? Food? Shelter?

I think a career can give a lot in return.

All material goods. People live happy, well adjusted lives without most of that. I had clothes and shelter and food without my mother working outside the house. She did as we got older, she always said it was to get some time away from me and my 3 siblings. :)

[Mr. Plow]

My kids are both dressed every day. They go to good schools, though the American education system is a f**king joke. We challenge them at home, by the time the school goes over something it's old hat to my kids. You don't need money for education in this country.

You'd also be surprised what you can feed and house your family on if you spend wisely.

Remember, "poor" does not equal cable TV, two mobile phones, two cars, a big screen, eating out 5+ times a week, buying the name brand at the store...


I don't disagree with you on this point. But feeding a husband, wife, 8 year old boy, 2 year old boy, 1 year old boy, and new born - due in September - costs quite a bit.

For some, earning say $300 a week, paying $250 in daycare, means you are able to "hold on" until the next paycheck.

[bogie]

My kids are both dressed every day. They go to good schools, though the American education system is a f**king joke. We challenge them at home, by the time the school goes over something it's old hat to my kids. You don't need money for education in this country.

You'd also be surprised what you can feed and house your family on if you spend wisely.

Remember, "poor" does not equal cable TV, two mobile phones, two cars, a big screen, eating out 5+ times a week, buying the name brand at the store...

You are Gods gift to parenting. Congratulations on being perfect.

[Mr. Plow]

Not to mention the simple interaction with people other than mom & dad.

[vailpass]

Not to mention the simple interaction with people other than mom & dad.

Oh yes, this is a very important feature for 1 and 2 year old children. The more the merrier, in fact it's a GOOD thing for infants and toddlers to see more of their daycare provider than their own parents.

Why don't people just come out and say that they wish their kids could have at least one of their parents home on a full time basis so they never had to use day care but they just can't afford it or aren't willing to make the sacrufuce and put in the effort that being full time parents requires?

[Eleazar]

My question to you is this:

What the f**k is so important about a career? What will it ever give you in return that really matters in the long run?

I am glad that my mom stayed home when I was little. She quit working when I was little, and didn't go back until my youngest brother was old enough to come home and be by himself after school.

I'm really grateful for it. They definitely sacrificed financially.. my mom was a nurse, probably made more than my dad made at his blue-collar job, but I almost always had a parent with me all the time instead of being dumped off at some daycare place at 7AM and picked up at 7PM like a lot of kids are nowadays. I think some people nowadays aren't willing to sacrifice the bigger house or the nicer car for their kids because they don't want to lose the additional income. My parents did and I think I owe them for it, a huge debt.

I think that it really helped me develop. We did something 'educational' daily, she worked with me a lot on learning how to read, all those things. I could play outside with the neighborhood kids and get plenty of socialization that way, and without being relegated to an inconvenience to my parents' careers. I knew that my brothers and I were the #1 priority in our parents lives. Besides the developmental and bonding benefits I think that mentally, that really means something to a kid.

[Mr. Plow]

Oh yes, this is a very important feature for 1 and 2 year old children. The more the merrier, in fact it's a GOOD thing for infants and toddlers to see more of their daycare provider than their own parents.

Why don't people just come out and say that they wish their kids could have at least one of their parents home on a full time basis so they never had to use day care but they just can't afford it or aren't willing to make the sacrufuce and put in the effort that being full time parents requires?

My 1 & 2 year old love playing with other kids. It's cool when I go pick them up and they are in the yard running around, chasing each other, laughing. Or riding on the like bikes. Brings a smile to my face at the end of a long day.

We are preparing for my wife to be at home with our newest child in September. 3 kids in daycare means spending more than she makes. It's just not logical anymore.

[bogie]

My Mother was a stay at home Mom and raised 6 wonderful children. One of them was me. I am very appreciative of that. That was in the 1950's 60's and 70's. It is a very different time now. Some are fortunate to have a life style that is the same as the 50's, some are not. Some of the people that opt to send their kids to daycare do it out of laziness, many do it ot of necessity. I don't know everyones story, but I choose not to generalize.

[Mr. Plow]

My Mother was a stay at home Mom and raised 6 wonderful children. One of them was me. I am very appreciative of that. That was in the 1950's 60's and 70's. It is a very different time now. Some are fortunate to have a life style that is the same as the 50's, some are not. Some of the people that opt to send their kids to daycare do it out of laziness, many do it ot of necessity. I don't know everyones story, but I choose not to generalize.


There are some that do it out of laziness. I had one of them in my child's daycare. She didn't work until 10a or so, but brought the kids at 6:45a. The latest my daycare stays open is 6:30p or so, that's when she picked them up.

[vailpass]

My 1 & 2 year old love playing with other kids. It's cool when I go pick them up and they are in the yard running around, chasing each other, laughing. Or riding on the like bikes. Brings a smile to my face at the end of a long day.

We are preparing for my wife to be at home with our newest child in September. 3 kids in daycare means spending more than she makes. It's just not logical anymore.

I'm sure it's cool to drive up and see your little one's running and playing in someone else's yard.
Wait til you see how it feels to drive up and see them doing the same thing in their own yard.
Best wishes with your newest (and other two) child and to your wife as she makes the transition.

[Mr. Plow]

I'm sure it's cool to drive up and see your little one's running and playing in someone else's yard.
Wait til you see how it feels to drive up and see them doing the same thing in their own yard.


Christ. I give up. I'll just buy my kids some toys so that they can enjoy the tiny 17 hours a day that I give to them. At least I can enjoy some peace and quiet.

[Simplex3]

My Mother was a stay at home Mom and raised 6 wonderful children. One of them was me. I am very appreciative of that. That was in the 1950's 60's and 70's. It is a very different time now. Some are fortunate to have a life style that is the same as the 50's, some are not. Some of the people that opt to send their kids to daycare do it out of laziness, many do it ot of necessity. I don't know everyones story, but I choose not to generalize.
I think that's a total cop-out. Your parents were able to do that back then because they chose to make the sacrifices. You could today if you wanted to.

[Mile High Mania]

These discussions are always such fun sometimes...

[Mr. Plow]

These discussions are always such fun sometimes...

As fun as beating my head against a wall. Or spending time with my kids.

[Mile High Mania]

I think that's a total cop-out. Your parents were able to do that back then because they chose to make the sacrifices. You could today if you wanted to.

There's some truth to what you're saying, but without knowing his current situation... it's really not your place to suggest that.

[vailpass]

Christ. I give up. I'll just buy my kids some toys so that they can enjoy the tiny 17 hours a day that I give to them. At least I can enjoy some peace and quiet.

No need to feel guilty, I'm sure you feel like you're doing the best that you can.

[vailpass]

Just ****in' with ya' :evil:

[NewChief]

These discussions are always such fun sometimes...


Simplex3 is a Sanctimommy (http://savannahnow.com/node/245604).

Believe me, parenting threads can be way more vicious and protracted than the best of DC. My wife used to hang out on some parenting blogs and discussion boards. They get sick. We just think people are invested and tied up in politics or religion. Start arguing about the best way to raise kids or insulting people who do it differently. It's a great way to start a vicious flame war.

[bogie]

I think that's a total cop-out. Your parents were able to do that back then because they chose to make the sacrifices. You could today if you wanted to.

My Dad chose this because he could. If he couldn't pay the mortgage, he would have chosen something different. Trust me, we've had numerous talks about this. My Dad did what was necessary to pay the bills and raise his family. To judge people on anything other than this, is dumbassery.

[bogie]

For the record, my wife has been a stay at home Mom for 9 years. My daughter is 9. We believe this is the best for my daughter, however, I do not condemn those people that don't have the same opportunities as us. To suggest that everyone has the same opportunities as my wife and I is, well, dumbassery.

[BucEyedPea]

Personally, I don't understand why this situation has to be so black and white - can't you have a career AND have normal, well-behaved kids that you see on a fairly regular basis? Some of you act like putting kids in daycare for any amount of time is the first step in raising a degenerate sociopath.

Because you really can't have both, and do both well, imo. At least NOT at the same time. Mothering is close to a full time job. There are way too many latch-key kids today.

I got a real reality check on this once I had mine and I was a feminist in college thinkin' I was gonna have this great career and kids too. Something has to take a back seat at least for a time. Kids don't and can't wait...they keep growing.

The reality is that high-powered careers come with loads of responsibility, extra hours and stress. There's a world of diffference when such ideas are written on paper than how it goes down in real life. Maria Shriver even wrote a small book on it.

Talk to any mother who has a demanding career, and you'll find some of the same things come up in our conversations....such as making more mistakes on the job etc.

Frankly, I found it exhausting.


This is why my mother hates feminists with a passion. She has always felt like they denigrate her for staying at home and taking care of the kids.

Well, I just don't believe in what they say anymore. Ya' know what, some teachers told me at my kid's school that they NEVER see the parents. The nanny picks them up and goes to parent meetings too. These are the rich ones that drive in their Mercedes too. Lol!

Yes the denigration. I remember reading a woman's mag about this, even when filling out applications for a bank loan when one writes mother and/or housewife. The denigrating looks. So one woman decided to change the title to "domestic engineer." Suddenly the interest and validation: "Oh really! What is that all about? Sounds interesting." LMAO.

It's actually the most important work any person will do. It's our future.

[Mile High Mania]

The really rich that do the day care thing to the extreme have a whole other bag of issues headed their way.

[bogie]

I'm not disagreeing that stay at home parenting is best. However, not everyone has the capacity to do what's best. Some folks do what they have to do to survive. I have a problem with people that generalize. To me they are generally talking out of their ass.

[Simplex3]

I have a problem with people that generalize. To me they are generally talking out of their ass.
LMAO

[KCinNY]

I wouldn't let my 14 month old little girl anywhere near a daycare center.

Even at the nice, expensive daycare centers, eight kids(aged 6 weeks to 12 months) are being watched by 2 "teachers" who earn about $7.00 an hour.

Yeah, they're gonna do as good of a job of nurturing, feeding, changing and raising her as my wife or myself.

[BucEyedPea]

Yeah, they're gonna do as good of a job of nurturing...
...by their own parents too. No one's gonna love them the same, and deep down they pick up on this.

[Mr. Plow]

Well, my wife and I had a long conversation about this last night. We decided that since we can only spend 17 hours a day with them, that it would be in the best interest of our children to give them to someone who can spend that extra 7 hours a day with them.

We felt that 35 hours a week away from our children was just doing them an injustice in their lives. Sure, they're well behaved now, but what happens when they are in the 6th grade? All hell is gonna break loose, that's what.

We'll try for more children when she can devote those 7 hours to them.

[Mile High Mania]

Well, my wife and I had a long conversation about this last night. We decided that since we can only spend 17 hours a day with them, that it would be in the best interest of our children to give them to someone who can spend that extra 7 hours a day with them.

We felt that 35 hours a week away from our children was just doing them an injustice in their lives. Sure, they're well behaved now, but what happens when they are in the 6th grade? All hell is gonna break loose, that's what.

We'll try for more children when she can devote those 7 hours to them.

ROFL

[KC Kings]

I'm not disagreeing that stay at home parenting is best. However, not everyone has the capacity to do what's best. Some folks do what they have to do to survive. I have a problem with people that generalize. To me they are generally talking out of their ass.

I agree with your comment on generalization. However, I believe that most people have the capactiy to do what is best, but choose not to because it is not always the most convenient to them.

When I got out of the military my first real job paid $33k. I was able to own a home, 2 vehicles, and have my wife stay at home with 2 kids, and put my son in a 3 hour/3 day a week Montisorri preschool. Granted we had no cable, a cell phone but no home phone, we shopped at ALDI's, lived in Raytown, I drove a 85 Cadi, we never ate out, and I worked an extra job around the holidays so we could have a good Christmas. For a short period of time I worked 40 hours at Sprint, 20 hours in the evening at HR Block, and 16-20 hours on the weekends at Blockbuster. Not only did I sacrafice, but the entire family made sacrafices but they were well worth it. If I had it to do all over again, I would do the same thing.

[Mr. Plow]

I agree with your comment on generalization. However, I believe that most people have the capactiy to do what is best, but choose not to because it is not always the most convenient to them.

When I got out of the military my first real job paid $33k. I was able to own a home, 2 vehicles, and have my wife stay at home with 2 kids, and put my son in a 3 hour/3 day a week Montisorri preschool. Granted we had no cable, a cell phone but no home phone, we shopped at ALDI's, lived in Raytown, I drove a 85 Cadi, we never ate out, and I worked an extra job around the holidays so we could have a good Christmas. For a short period of time I worked 40 hours at Sprint, 20 hours in the evening at HR Block, and 16-20 hours on the weekends at Blockbuster. Not only did I sacrafice, but the entire family made sacrafices but they were well worth it. If I had it to do all over again, I would do the same thing.

So you worked basically 80 hours out of 168 total hours in a week so that your wife could stay home. Basically, you gave up half a week of time with your kids so that your wife could stay home. Factor in that your kids probably slept minimum 8 hours a night, you end up with only 36 hours of time with your kids.

I know you said it was only a short period of time, but I guess I'm curious as to how much more - if any - the fathers have to work to make ends meet. I know I am buying two sizes of diapers right now and they ain't cheap. Especially when they go through them so quickly.

[KC Kings]

So you worked basically 80 hours out of 168 total hours in a week so that your wife could stay home. Basically, you gave up half a week of time with your kids so that your wife could stay home. Factor in that your kids probably slept minimum 8 hours a night, you end up with only 36 hours of time with your kids.

I know you said it was only a short period of time, but I guess I'm curious as to how much more - if any - the fathers have to work to make ends meet. I know I am buying two sizes of diapers right now and they ain't cheap. Especially when they go through them so quickly.
At the time I worked 6-3 and got home at 3:30. Left for job 2 at 7pm and worked 7:30pm-11:30. On the weekend I generally worked 4pm to midnight, so I had all day with the kids. I only worked this much for 3 months, but kept the part time job for a year or so.

During this time I knew I was gone all of the time, so every second I was home I was spending time with the family. The kids went to bed at 7pm so I didn't miss any time with them working the evenings. On the weekends we were doing family stuff from when they woke up at 7am until after 3.

Working 80 hours a week I was able to give the kids 3 1/2 undivided attention every night and 8 hours of indivded attention on Saturday and Sunday. Now, I work less than half those hours, make more than twice the salary, but I don't think I spend any more time with the kids. They are getting older so they require less attention, but it is crazy how things work out.

My part time job was at Blockbuster so my wife could have worked it as easy as I did, but that job was so easy I would rather be there for 4 hours than be at home doing housework for 4 hours.

[Mr. Plow]

At the time I worked 6-3 and got home at 3:30. Left for job 2 at 7pm and worked 7:30pm-11:30. On the weekend I generally worked 4pm to midnight, so I had all day with the kids. I only worked this much for 3 months, but kept the part time job for a year or so.

During this time I knew I was gone all of the time, so every second I was home I was spending time with the family. The kids went to bed at 7pm so I didn't miss any time with them working the evenings. On the weekends we were doing family stuff from when they woke up at 7am until after 3.

Working 80 hours a week I was able to give the kids 3 1/2 undivided attention every night and 8 hours of indivded attention on Saturday and Sunday. Now, I work less than half those hours, make more than twice the salary, but I don't think I spend any more time with the kids. They are getting older so they require less attention, but it is crazy how things work out.

My part time job was at Blockbuster so my wife could have worked it as easy as I did, but that job was so easy I would rather be there for 4 hours than be at home doing housework for 4 hours.


Don't take it the wrong way. You did what you had to.

I used to work at a Blockbuster as well. Easiest job I've ever had.

[vailpass]

Well, my wife and I had a long conversation about this last night. We decided that since we can only spend 17 hours a day with them, that it would be in the best interest of our children to give them to someone who can spend that extra 7 hours a day with them.

We felt that 35 hours a week away from our children was just doing them an injustice in their lives. Sure, they're well behaved now, but what happens when they are in the 6th grade? All hell is gonna break loose, that's what.

We'll try for more children when she can devote those 7 hours to them.

If you really feel that way why don't you sack up and do what it takes to support your family so your wife doesn't have to be away from the home?

[Saulbadguy]

There are some that do it out of laziness. I had one of them in my child's daycare. She didn't work until 10a or so, but brought the kids at 6:45a. The latest my daycare stays open is 6:30p or so, that's when she picked them up.
That is actually better for the child - to bring them in early rather than later. It provides more structure during the day.

[Mr. Plow]

If you really feel that way why don't you sack up and do what it takes to support your family so your wife doesn't have to be away from the home?

I can hardly wait for the kids to be gone. Just think of all the cool new things I can buy. And, none of them have to go to my kids. Boo Yah!

[Mr. Plow]

That is actually better for the child - to bring them in early rather than later. It provides more structure during the day.

You are correct. If the parents won't provide the structure, at least someone is.

[Iowanian]

Every single families situation is different. If a stranger said to my face that I was raising my child incorrectly, I'd tell them to fist themselves.

There is give and take, positive and negative to every situation. I know alot of stayhome mom's who are very successful at what they do, and I know alot that need some adult conversation because they're nuts.

In our situation, it made more sense for the wife to switch to 3 days per week. Part of her job involves working with childcare providers...she'd been in every one and knew them. We interviewed and chose an inhome provider that doesn't plop them in front of a tv for any more than 1 educational show per day. If its nice, they go outside, they make projects and do educational stuff, and take walks to a farm-petting zoo on the edge of our town.

When we have another, the wife will likely stay home. Our daughter is well parented and corrected at home and I feel that makes for a good child in public-school or daycare.....its not daycare that makes your kid an asshole, its shitty parenting by neglect, or spoiling the little shit rotten.

She learns from interaction, how to share, make new friends, takes some lumps and learns to fight for herself. While alot of germs come home, I think it has some value.

The flip side....when the wife starts staying home, Dad now has to stop coming home by 5pm and either pick up work on the side or a new job. Now Dad, who is home regularly, reading, playing outside and helping parent, likely doesn't get home before the kidowanian is in bed. That part sucks for Dad, but I'll do what I've got to do.

As for locking my child up in bubble wrap....She doesn't have to do that until she's 11...to 30.

[wutamess]

So you guys that claim "not missing the firsts" is so important, will work OT for little to no weekly interaction with the kid(s) just so the mother can have all interaction with the kids?

Doesn't make very much sense to me

Also, what if you're a single parent?
Are they the worst if they have to work to support their family?
:hmmm:

[crazycoffey]

So you guys that claim "missing the firsts" will work OT for little to no weekly interaction with the kid(s) just so the mother can have all interaction with the kids?

Doesn't make very much sense to me
:hmmm:


I think that idea is meant that one parent is better than no parent interacting with the child's first pee on the carpet. [/end speculation]

[wutamess]

I think that idea is meant that one parent is better than no parent interacting with the child's first pee on the carpet. [/end speculation]

If that's the case... why wouldn't it be more beneficial for the child to have an equal dosage of both parents than an overabundance of one? Especially when it comes to boys? Mother can't teach a boy how to be a boy/man.

Not judging just wondering.

[Mr. Plow]

What about lesbian relationships? Who stays home? Who teaches the boy to be a man?

[Saulbadguy]

.....its not daycare that makes your kid an asshole, its shitty parenting by neglect, or spoiling the little shit rotten.

Exactly.

[Jenson71]

What about lesbian relationships? Who stays home? Who teaches the boy to be a man?

They just teach him to be a girl.

[crazycoffey]

If that's the case... why wouldn't it be more beneficial for the child to have an equal dosage of both parents than an overabundance of one? Especially when it comes to boys? Mother can't teach a boy how to be a boy/man.

Not judging just wondering.


well I don't fit in this category anyway, so not feeling judged.....

I'd say - again, my belief is about Balance, a key word I use for many major life decisions - but I hear what you are saying. Again it would be the back's against the wall and the choice is majority of time with a babysitter or one of the parents.

but I also suspect there is a level of learning "how to be a man" by the boy too, because he will grow up to understand his dad sacrificed alot to make sure he was taken care of by mom? - pure speculation, because if there is one thing I have come to understand about kids, and wives...... You could give them a gold brick and they would complain about the shape.

[crazycoffey]

What about lesbian relationships? Who stays home? Who teaches the boy to be a man?


well, the dike - D'uh..... :p

[KingPriest2]

It has been proven that children who go to preschool perform better academically and get along better with other kids.

It is great that parents can stay home but it benifits the child more if they do go to preschool.

[Mr. Plow]

Anymore, it seems if you don't put your kids into preschool they are behind when they start kindergarten.

My oldest went to 2 years of preschool before starting kindergarten. I'll be sending the others as well when they are old enough.

[crazycoffey]

It has been proven that children who go to preschool perform better academically and get along better with other kids.

It is great that parents can stay home but it benifits the child more if they do go to preschool.


I agree again most of the poster opposing daycare also claimed for balance as the overall driving force. I even suggested the same thing you are saying, but the main arguement against daycare was for the parents that put the kids into daycare at 6 months of age, you lose alot of connection time, touch, love, etc.

But I also understand everyone is different and you have to make the choice you can live with. I won't do it...... I will stay home if I have to, but I'm not putting a 6 month old into daycare for 8+ hours a day, won't let it happen, that's me....

But what you just said, yes, an education program 1-2 years prior to starting public education, gets the kids ready to interact with other children and prepares them to be learners, I'm on board for that too.

=

BALANCED...... :)

[KC Kings]

So you guys that claim "not missing the firsts" is so important, will work OT for little to no weekly interaction with the kid(s) just so the mother can have all interaction with the kids?

Doesn't make very much sense to me

Also, what if you're a single parent?
Are they the worst if they have to work to support their family?
:hmmm:
"Missing the firsts" isn't the point of the article. If you are interested in child behavior for single parent stats, there are a ton available with a google search. Again, the article this post is about is the effect day care has on your child. A single parent has no choice, unless they wan't to be a stay at homeless parent.

Is it better for kids to be with both parents? Yes, but I would rather my kids to share all mpst their growing up with a parent rather than a day care worker. My wife was a nanny type babysitter for 2 years in VA Beach. She went to their house at 8am, and left at 6pm. If we were in port I usually worked 9-3 so I would drop off the wife. The kids she watched were very well behaved, but both of the kids (4 and 1) were more exicted to see my wife in the morning, than they were to see their parents get home at night. The parents had high paying jobs, drove nice cars and had a huge house, and they didn't seem to mind the kids liking my wife more. My wife loved them and took good care of them, so in the long run does it matter who the kids are loving or loved by, as long as they are being loved? I don't know, but seeing that had a big impact on our decision to have my wife stay at home.

[listopencil]

I think you have to distinguish between a daycare center and a preschool. All of our kids went to preschool for two years before kindergarten. Mon-Fri for three to five hours a day. They hit the ground running when they entered first grade and didn't have any glitches in academics until after Elementary School.

[listopencil]

BTW, my wife and I switched jobs and got our schedules screwed around so we wouldn't have to use a daycare. Having less money sucks. Not having as much time for our marriage sucks. But we love our kids and we do what we have to do.

[BucEyedPea]

Anymore, it seems if you don't put your kids into preschool they are behind when they start kindergarten.

My oldest went to 2 years of preschool before starting kindergarten. I'll be sending the others as well when they are old enough.
I'm not sayin' you're completely wrong here. I just know that those parents who taught their kids how to read very, very early like age 3 can still lose ground after a certain number of years in school.

There is strong evidence that those who learn to read starting at a later age learn it faster and it's less difficult to teach. I've seen this and was told this by a friend of mine who is a teacher and taught his kids to read very early. What seems to be the pattern is the others who start later catch up by age ten to the others. Now from that point on, things can change again.

Per my kid's school, they have graphs using the CA Achievement Tests that show how it averages off by age 10. Then it can change. In this school the kids start reading in pre-school. So the the graph shows them well ahead in the first grades after. Then it averages, with them being just slightly ahead bu age 10. However by 15 their graph changes showing them significantly ahead. Their curriculum is so rich, and they do a lot more work that by age 15 they are done with HS...in relation to standard public schools. Some even get entrance into college full time. That is in relation to the CA Achievement Test. So the school's program also matters, not just the age or preschool or so it seems to me.

BTW Isaac Newton hated school and didn't do that well. It was a tutor later in life, think it was age 12, who got him excited in intellectual pursuits which took hold of him then. Einstein didn't even talk to age 5. People, then, thought, he was dumb. There's more than a few stories like that. In fact some of our most renowned geniouses had a non-conventional education path. Schools today are a cookie-cutter approach and don't necessarily align with the child's interests or abilities.