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View Full Version : Once again, pondering the QB situation as it relates to the Red & Gold


Gaz
03-17-2001, 11:12 AM
Shutting out the fury of the continuing QB storm, I contemplate our options:

· Trade for Green as starter:
Since we are not a QB away from the Super Bowl, any trade must take into consideration the players we could get for those picks. Green's knee rehab also factors into the equation. And let us not forget that the Rams will be more reasonable next season [when Green commands nearly $4 million of the cap]. Keep in mind that there are a number of promising QBs coming in the '02 draft. Unless the Rams agree to a swap of 1st Rounders [#12 for #20 +Green] or two 2nd Rounders [#12 for #42 & #54 + Green], this is not a good deal for the Chiefs. Since that is not going to happen, Vermeil will simply have to pine away for Green from a distance.

· Acquire a FA QB as starter or backup to Collins:
The problem here is that there are no 1st-tier QBs in FA [FWIW, there are very few 1st-tier QBs in the NFL]. Collins has rotted on the KC bench for a couple of years now. Aikman has the physical skills we want [accurate, quick read, experience, so forth], but he has had 10 concussions. Beuerlein may come on the market soon, but he is aging and has had injury problems. Brunell, if he hits the wire, will be overvalued, as he has been overvalued for several years now. Dilfer is available, but no one seems to want him, not even the team with which he won the Super Bowl. The list of second-rate QBs is long, but unimpressive. This would be strictly a short-term solution and only postpones the day of reckoning.

· Draft Brees or Weinke and throw them to the wolves:
These are the two draft players with the maturity and ability to lead a team fresh out of college. Brees arm strength is not impressive and Weinke's age is worrisome, not to mention that neck surgery. But both of them are accurate, smart QBs who are said to be leaders. If we allow for a moment that we may not get EVERYTHING we want in a QB, Brees' arm and Weinke's age do not seem as formidable as they once did. A further knock against Brees is that he would cost me my run-stuffing DT [Seymour] in the 1st Round.

If anyone has any comments more substantial than "Brees sucks," I would like to hear them.


xoxo~
gaz
struggling to remain placid amongst the noise and fury.

tommykat
03-17-2001, 11:21 AM
Gaz,
Help me to understand how we get Brees? I thought by the time our draft picks came around he probably wouldn't be availible. So how does this work exactley?
Kathy

Packfan
03-17-2001, 11:22 AM
Gaz,

Nice post.

You already know my thoughts, and they are very similar to yours. One thing I will offer is this. The Chiefs should draft a QB this year in the third round or later. Look at some of the up and coming QBs around the league: Aaron Brooks, Matt Hasselbeck, Doug Johnson, Ray Lucas, Shane Mathews, ect. None of these guys were first round picks. My point is that you dont have to use a #1 pick to get a potentially good QB. The jury is still out on these guys, but it is also still out on Tim Couck, Akili Smith, and Duante Culpepper. You got to have an eye for talent, be able to teach him, be patient with him, and surround him with good players.

If I were Peterson, I would try to sign Aikman, draft a QB in the third round, draft another next year in the third round and try to develop him for the future. Aikman is probably a good role model. The Chiefs can be competitive with Aikman. They will protect him and have the NFL's best tight end to throw to. Aikman's production went down hill after Novacek retired. With the 12th pick this year, I would either draft a defensive lineman or a running back.
If the Chiefs could solve their QB and RB problems for the long haul (and thats a big IF), they might be on to something. But you are not going to solve them in free agency. The Chiefs (and other teams) have proven this.

Gaz
03-17-2001, 11:32 AM
Kathy-

I have yet to find a mock draft that shows Brees going earlier than #12 [CNNSI shows us taking him at #12, but they are all alone on that limb right now]. In fact, most of them show him as a late 1st or even early 2nd Rounder [unless the Steelers take him at #16]. Most folks would probably consider him a serious reach at #12, but he does fit most of the profile for our QB.

Here is a URL for a collection of mock drafts:

http://www.footballsfuture.com/2001/mock.html

Each one is different, but if you survey a number of them, you can get a feel for the general consensus of where a player will draft out.

xoxo~
gaz
sifting through the mass of mock drafts.

Gaz
03-17-2001, 11:38 AM
Packfan-

Of the two, I lean toward Weinke, but am just as likely to change my mind half an hour from now. He is taller, which is not a HUGE factor, but it is a factor, all other things being equal. He also allows me to draft Seymour at #12, although I think Carl is more likely to take Bennett with that pick.

I originally shied away from Weinke because of his neck surgery. But if we are seriously considering Aikman, then Weinke's neck is no longer a concern.

I do not see any other QB prospect whom I would start right away. If I had the leisure to develop a QB, I would probably pick Tuiasosopo. But if I had the leisure to develop a QB, I would not be hearing the panicked cries of "we gotta sign Green now!"

xoxo~
gaz
all over the place on this issue.

milkman
03-17-2001, 11:39 AM
Kathy,
The question about Brees is his arm strength, and with his unimpressive showing at the Indy combines, he raised even more questions. He was said to have lacked the ability to throw with any kind of accuracy, or zip, on passes 20 or more yards.
He does have some things that some people like, smart, accurate an fairly quick release.
From the games I saw, his success was due more to the system he plays in and his receivers.

tommykat
03-17-2001, 11:58 AM
Gaz,
So let's say we did draft him at the #12 pick ( I read about the Steelers) then that would mean signing someone like Aikman first? Am I in the right line of thinking here?
Kathy

Cormac
03-17-2001, 12:08 PM
Brees might be able to lead the offense that we may have (quick slants etc. relying on YACs). But I don't think he's a good choice at #12. Weinke IMO would be a FAR better option taken much later in the draft. I am not sure where he is predicted to go, but I can't imagine him going much earlier than the 4th or 5th rounds???? Anyone know what is likely to happen with him. FWIW, at 28 years of age, he could have 6-8 years left which is more than you normally get from draft picks anyway, let alone late rounders. I presume he has the accuracy, poise and leadership required. I just don't know enough about his mechanics to say if he'd work out. At least he'd be a lower risk project that Brees at #12. JMO.

Gaz
03-17-2001, 12:09 PM
Kathy-

If we sign Brees or Weinke, I let him fight it out with Collins. Best QB starts. Sink or swim, death or glory, good or bad.

In order to follow this path, you have to be prepared for the rookie blues. NFL veterans will use any college QB for a period of time. Both Brees and Weinke are supposed to be mature leaders in the huddle, the type of guy best able to withstand the shocking reality that he has just become a very small fish in a pond chock full of very big, very fast, very sneaky piranhas.

If we draft Brees or Weinke, I go after a bargain basement FA QB [one of the Billy Joe twins, for example] as emergency backup to Collins. No Aikman, no Beuerlein, no Dilfer.

xoxo~
gaz
eyeing the high-risk venture with interest.

milkman
03-17-2001, 12:15 PM
The short QBs in the NFL that have any success are the ones tha can scramble and buy time, and find passing lanes when the defensive line has broken down some. Brees was measured at 6'. In a quick read passing scheme, his height or lack thereof) would make it even more dificult to succeed at the NFL level. Just pass the Brees.
Weinke is a possibility that I was pushing earlier in the offseason. No one seemed to like the idea at the time.

Gaz
03-17-2001, 12:15 PM
Cormac-

Weinke's height [small factor] and much lower draft cost [BIG factor] is why I am leaning towards him.

I could have Weinke at QB Seymour at DT and or I could have Brees at QB and Ryan Pickett [who?] at DT.

I much prefer Weinke and Seymour.

xoxo~
gaz
not quite a proponent, but edging in that direction.

Gaz
03-17-2001, 12:18 PM
milkman-

Weinke is a possibility that I was pushing earlier in the offseason. No one seemed to like the idea at the time.

That was before Aikman's squishy brains became a real possibility. I was opposed to Weinke because of that neck injury [I recall you advocating him and that was my concern], but I would take Weinke long before I would take Aikman.

xoxo~
gaz
revising his opinion as Aikman's bruised brain comes closer to a R&G helmet.

kcred
03-17-2001, 12:19 PM
At the risk of sounding redundant, as if the whole QB question isn't, I sign a Dilfer/Aikman, keep Collins at #2, and maybe let the kid in Europe hold the clipboard. I then draft D almost exclusively in the draft, and take care of the RB situation with Holmes. We are so far away from the SB, I can't see Green making a difference. Another younger FA available is Jamie Martin of Jax, I would give him a look maybe before the first two.

MrBlond
03-17-2001, 12:35 PM
What about someone elses young back-up that may be ready to step up? My hope earlier was Ray Lucas. Someone else posted about San Franciscos young back-ups, Rattay and Carmazzi. Or the Bears Shane Mathews or Jim Miller. The cost would not be extreme and there may be a bigger upside than some others. What is N.O. plans for Jeff Blake?

old_geezer
03-17-2001, 12:40 PM
Gaz,
Green is the best QB available but I am not willing to mortgage our future for him.
A FA is acceptable, but only if he realizes he will be spending time on the bench as an insurance policy in case our QBOTF gets injured.
Which leads to my preference; Draft our QBOTF and play him now. Let's go forwards, not backwards.
I would be comfortable with any of the young QB's being mentioned with the knowledge that if they didn't work out we could try again next year when our defense has been upgraded.

old_geezer very comfortable agreeing with gaz.

Clint in Wichita
03-17-2001, 12:41 PM
By the time Weinke adjusts to playing in the NFL (if he ever does), he'll be ready to retire.

Gaz
03-17-2001, 12:47 PM
MrBlond-

What would be the compensation for one of those young backup QBs you mention?

xoxo~
gaz
leaving no stone unturned.

Gaz
03-17-2001, 12:50 PM
By the time Weinke adjusts to playing in the NFL (if he ever does), he'll be ready to retire.

I doubt that. He will have at least another decade ahead of him. In addition, he is one of the two college QBs who is ready to start right out of college. There will be a break-in period, but I would not expect it to last that long.

xoxo~
gaz
refuting the local shock-jock.

oleman47
03-17-2001, 01:03 PM
The old geezer club is in complete agreement. Draft em, play em, draft em, play em until you get it right. Draft two if need be, just get it done. QB is very important. Particularly in a passing offense. So they lost Grbac, and
Green could play, but both could get or could have got hurt in preseason. We must learn to develop qbs and not become the repository of the old and lame qb club.

Gaz
03-17-2001, 01:06 PM
You know, if we were willing to make Richardson the featured HB, we could forget drafting Henry or Jackson in the 3rd and draft Weinke AND Tuiasosopo…

xoxo~
gaz
just thinking out loud.

oleman47
03-17-2001, 01:08 PM
The url is most poorly behaved I have run into in some time.

hawaiianboy
03-17-2001, 01:36 PM
gazman...

As much as I'd like to see you guys give away a 1 and a 3 this year...
IMO, I think trying to grab Green or a Brees in the draft is not a good approach...

IF this were my team I was talking about... I'd want them to realize that as slim as the QB pickings are through the draft and FA this year.... next years QB class looks excellent...

I don't think you'll be bad enough to be in the Henson range but Kurt Kittner, Ken Dorsey, Carson Palmer, Kyle Bollar, etc are all better prospects IMO... Plus the availability of prospects through the draft will lower the demand/value on FA QB's...

Realizing I can get my QBOTF next year, and realizing with the exception of Cedrick Cobbs and possibly Paul Arnold and Sultan McCullough (I'm not as high on DeShawn Foster as others are) next years draft is short on franchise backs (IMO) ... I'd look to grab a Tomlinson or Bennett this year, or entertain the idea of parlaying my 12 for a couple of two's and change ala Bill Walsh,that may bring me a RB (Jordan/Barlow) and a CB (Baxter/Lucas) in the 2nd and then grab a DT (Pickett) and LB (Hartwell) in the 3rd....

Me personally, I'd sign Buerline before any other QB available... He's smart, a good field leader and experienced in a WC offense...
He's got at least 2-3 years left in him, especially since he'll be away from a horrible Carolina O-Line...

QB Buerline [FA]
RB Barlow [RD2]
CB Baxter [RD2]
LB Hartwell [RD3]

or

QB Green????

Sheesh... even Donx fans can figure it out.


[Edited by hawaiianboy on 03-17-2001 at 02:39 PM]

Gaz
03-17-2001, 01:53 PM
hawaiianboy-

Weinke or Beurlein?

Weinke would certainly cost less, but is not experienced. Beuerlein has experience, but has had lots of injuries and surgery.

I dunno.

I am wrestling with the situation, trying to find the best scenario. I see your point on HB this year and QB next season. To be sure, the QB crop in '02 looks a lot better than '01 at this point. Still, that means we get yet another over-the-hill FA QB to caretake the team until the QBOTF arrives.

Beuerlein is certainly the best FA QB for option #2, but I really don't want option #2. With the turnover in the coaching staff, I would like to see an end to the "recycle old QBs" mindset that has dominated the R&G for so long.

What I want is option #3 with a good, young draft QB prospect. Unfortunately, this is not the year for young, good draft QB prospects.

xoxo~
gaz
trying to make the best of the situation.

hawaiianboy
03-17-2001, 02:11 PM
Then if Weinke is your guy (he does throw a nice deep ball and would be a nice fit in Saunders quick thinking scheme) then the multiple trade down scenario works as Weinke would be available in the 2nd or 3rd....

RD2 Barlow [RB]
RD2 Weinke [QB]
RD3 Pickett/Davis [DT]
RD3 Henderson/Stone [CB]
RD3 Allen/Bell [LB]

The facination with Green is beyond me... I just am not impressed with him and I think that the QB rating stat is highly over rated...

I'm surprised that Vermeil would trade away picks seeing that he was such a good judge and fan of collegiate talent as an announcer..

Peterson should study what Bill Walsh did last year in the draft parlaying picks....

Gaz
03-17-2001, 02:36 PM
hawaiianboy-

That's part of the problem. Right now, I think we should just draft Weinke, throw him to the dogs and be prepared to draft another QB in '02. Ten minutes from now, I may think that Beuerlein is the answer. I don't see that one scenario is significantly better than the other at this point. Carolina may make up my find for me, though.

What I know for certain is that trading our 1st for Green is a bad idea.

If we follow the trade down path [a path I favor, BTW], I like the looks of this draft:

2a: Shaun Rogers or Mario Fatafehi, DT
2b: Chris Weinke, QB
3a: James Jackson or Kevan Barlow, HB
3b: Marcus Steele, OLB or Mike Gandy, OG
4a: Ryan Pickett or Ennis Davis, DT
4b: Ken-Yon Rambo, WR
5: BAA
6: BAA
7: BAA

xoxo~
gaz
trying to make up his cotton pickin' mind.

Mi_chief_fan
03-17-2001, 03:25 PM
JQ,

Did I read your post right? I could have swore you mentioned a bunch of low rent QB's as better prospects as Drew Henson. Whatever you're smoking, please send some to me. ;)

Henson is the best all around QB since Peyton Manning. His arm strength & accuracy ar superb(probably better than Manning's) and he' quite mobile. One things for sure: we'll really have to suck to get him, but as the son of a football coach, he would be able to contribute immediately.

I've seen enough of Kurt Kittner to know that you're way off base in your QB assessment. I've also witnessed a couple of Carson Palmer's 'performances', and can tell you that although he has the physical tools, the time he spent with Paul Hackett has probably ruined him. Dorsey is a major question, and i'll admit, I don't know much about Bollar, but I doubt he could carry Henson's duffel bag.

hawaiianboy
03-17-2001, 03:52 PM
MCF...
Not sure where you got me putting Henson in scrubville from...
I think you may have misinterpretted my post ... I think Henson is the #1 QB pick going into next year... I was comparing next years impressive batch to this years average batch of QB's...

Thanks to satellite, I saw Kittner play on almost a weekly basis the past few years and I'll stick to my guns... I like him as a pro prospect... he didn't match his 5-1 TD/INT soph. rate, but he had a solid year...

As for Palmer... whatever Hackett did to him, will be undone with the hiring of Norm Chow as OC... he's developed QB's at BYU for 20+ years then helped develop an impressive Philip Rivers at NC St last year...

Dorsey looked impressive last year as a true soph... Good pure pocket passer that I'd take over every QB in this years draft cept Vick..

Mi_chief_fan
03-17-2001, 04:30 PM
I think I got it: Kittner, Palmer, Dorsey, etc. are better prospects that THIS year's crop. OK. Sorry.

Not sold on Kittner. Here in Big 10 country, got to see him alot. A sophomore to keep an eye on is Jeff Smoker, Mich igan State(although I may be a little biased ;) ). He played well as a freshman, IMO.

hawaiianboy
03-17-2001, 04:39 PM
No prob...

You know Van Dyke inquired about tranferring here prior to last season... We already had a hearalded frosh who ended up starting... so June nixed it I think..
I like Smoker... he needs to take some weight on but I think Smoker to Rodgers will be a combo you hear alot next year....

Damn fine defensive scheme you got there though I wish I'd gotten to see Duckett play LB.... From what I heard he's a better LB than RB..

Mi_chief_fan
03-17-2001, 04:45 PM
JQ,

You heard right. In fact, when I saw him play against my old team in HS, he ws a quarterback, ran the option pretty well. Funny thing was, when he got to state, he couldn't throw the ball 40 yards! lol

Kinda surprising for a guy who stands 6'2", 245-255 lbs, with 4.5 speed.

MrBlond
03-17-2001, 05:25 PM
Gaz,

I think Rattay or Carmazzi could be had for a 3rd. I make this guess based on GBs trade of Aaron Brooks. SF and Bill Walsh ALWAYS look to acquire draft picks. Garcia seems be firmly entrenched as the starter. One of the two young guys may be ready to step up. I know one thing for certain, if Carl would acquire another SF backup fans would howl. Maybe sign Aikman or Buerline and trade for Rattay. I loved what N.O. did last year, signing Blake and trading for Brooks. Playing for now and preparing for the future.

Mi_chief_fan
03-17-2001, 05:30 PM
You may be right Mr. Blonde. However, don't you think we could do just as well with the pick ourselves? After all, they both were low round picks.

MrBlond
03-17-2001, 05:41 PM
I think we should have already had one of these guys or someone like them on our roster.

Gaz
03-19-2001, 08:21 AM
MrBlond-

Is either Rattay or Carmazzi a major upgrade from Weinke?

xoxo~
gaz
still flailing with this decision.

Mi_chief_fan
03-19-2001, 08:31 AM
Gaz,

Both Rattay & Carmazzi are significantly younger thatn Weinke, and also have NFL experience. Both would be far better pickups than the old man.

My choice would be Tuiasosopo, in the later rounds.

kcred
03-19-2001, 09:58 AM
You probably get either one of them, for around a 6th or 7th. I read today, that the 49ers are only carrying 3 this year, so unless they both beat out Mirer, one is gone. Carmazzi is playing in Europe this spring, BTW.

ct
03-19-2001, 10:03 AM
You know, if we were willing to make Richardson the featured HB, we could forget drafting Henry or Jackson in the 3rd and draft Weinke AND Tuiasosopo…
- Gaz


This is the best idea amoung this entire thread, IMO.
Pass on Green, and Aikman, and Beuerlien, too.

Let the two rooks battle with Collins for all three spots.

Grab James Jackson in the 3rd of 4th to hedge any possible failure of TRich in the new O scheme. Cloud and Jackson should perform so-so trying to Be Like Faulk, if this is the case. And this still leaves the door open to grab Seymour or Hutchinson @12, else trade down(my first preference) to obtain a 2nd(or 2) and another 3rd round pick.

ct
just fine with TRich as HB

htismaqe
03-19-2001, 10:50 AM
After seeing his number from 2 consecutive workouts, I hope we avoid James Jackson like the plague...

Mark M
03-19-2001, 11:29 AM
Here's my take (FWIW):

1. Sign Holmes for RB.
2. Trade for another team's backup (Carmazzi sounds good due to his experience with learning a read-and-react offense. Don't know much about Rattay).
3. Trade down from #12 for multiple 2nd rounders.
4. Draft DT, LB, then Weinke (due to his age, along with ability. He has the maturity we need, the arm we need for the deep pass and the neck doesn't bother me as much as Aikman's concussions do. Besides, the Seminoles are pratically a pro team anyway.)
5. With the rest of the picks look for CB, OL and WR.

In training camp, let the QB's fight it out on who should be the starter. All of them are learning a new offense and, while Collins will have a leg up due to more prep in the offseason, one of them should emerge as the most capable.

Take our lumps next year (which hurts to say) and then draft another QB with the first pick in '02 when the good crop come out. You never know ... one of the guys could step-up and do well.

I know, nothing new ... just giving my 2¢ and trying to get to 1,000 posts. :D

MM
~~Beating the already dead horse.

Cormac
03-19-2001, 12:24 PM
The only thing I remember hearing about Rattay and Carmazzi was that Carmazzi was disappointing at the beginning. I'm not sure if that's changed or not. He has prototypical size, and has the physical tools etc., but Rattay had the edge in terms of his readiness and ability to step in. This was the whisper in the months after they were drafted. Now that Carmazzi is going to NFLE, it's possible he's still seen as a bigger project than Rattay. To be honest, they sound like Tuiasosopo (Carmazzi) vs Brees (Rattay) to me. Would we be any better off pursuing one of them over drafting our own.

I still wish we'd taken Chris Redman.

Mark M
03-19-2001, 12:37 PM
Cormac--
I don't know if we'd be better off or not. The thing that worries me about Brees is his size (which isn't that big of a deal, look at Flutie) and his ability to throw an accurate deep ball. I don't know much about Tui other than he was hurt, wasn't he? I've heard he's a heckuva leader and has the skills, but haven't seen many numbers on the guy or really any games he's been in. I've seen Weinke and, even though he is a bit old, he seems to have the poise, maturity, skills and leadership a QB needs. I also like McMahon due to his arm strength and ability to throw the touch pass, but he seems a bit cocky (not too bad to have in a QB, but could come back to haunt us.)

The reason I'd like to get Carmazzi or Rattay as a 3rd (not 3rd string, but as a roster spot) QB is because they've had some experience learning professional offenses. How well remains to be seen, but they are both young players who will be cap-friendly. That would give us a rookie, a player with a couple of years in the NFL and Collins, someone who has been in the league a while now (I think it's around 5 years or so, but I could be wrong).

I wouldn't be 100% opposed to getting a Dilfer type FA with NFL experience, but the cost might be too much and a journeyman QB comes with a lot of baggage and pre-conceived notions on their ability, both from fans and from coaches. Beurlein would be my choice in this realm, but he may be a bit pricy and has had some injuries as of late (which I didn't know about until recently). Aikman would be good as coach, but not as a player IMO.

Again, just my thoughts. Feel free to rip away, everyone.

MM
~~Letting himself be a target.
http://cwm.ragesofsanity.com/s/net5/target1.gif

ct
03-19-2001, 12:39 PM
htismaqe,

I admit I have not kept up on the combine/workout scoops.
What's up with Jackson?

ct

Herzig
03-19-2001, 01:25 PM
Draft watch: Ranking the QBs
By Dan Pompei - The Sporting News

A quick look at my top 12 prospects at QB heading into the 2001 draft:

1. Michael Vick, Virginia Tech, 6-0, 210. Might be the best athlete to ever play the position.
Possesses tremendous speed, elusiveness and running skills. Has a feel for the pass rush. Great arm
strength. Tough. Powerfully built. Very similar prospect to Donovan McNabb, but is faster and not as
accurate needs to work on accuracy. Is very raw, and is not ready to play. Tries to do too much at
times. Has to learn to protect the ball. Hands are small short.

2. Drew Brees, Purdue, 6-0, 213. Instinctive, intelligent passer who knows how to win. Clutch
performer. Competitor. Has an accurate arm, but doesn't have great arm strength. Sees the field well.
Can scramble, but he isn't a great runner. Probably needs to be in the right situation to succeed. Short.

3. Chris Weinke, Florida State, 6-4, 226. Improved his stock early in the season by losing weight
and gaining mobility, but then fell flat in the Orange Bowl, skipped the Senior Bowl and did not throw
accurately at the combine. Cagey and tough quarterback who has total command of his offense. Better
prospect than other recent Florida State quarterbacks. Does not have very impressive physical skills.
At 28, is probably too old to be a developmental project.

4. Marques Tuiasosopo, Washington, 6-1, 223. Great leader who seems to do whatever it takes
to get the job done. A winner. Known for his toughness. Sometimes throws from awkward positions.
Will have to learn to read defenses better. Has a decent arm, but otherwise has so-so physical traits.

5. Quincy Carter, Georgia, 6-2, 225. Great athlete who hasn't learned to be a quarterback. Similar
prospect to Kordell Stewart when Stewart came out, but not as polished a passer. Is big and strong
and has a cannon arm. Is not accurate, but threw better than expected at the combine. Needs
technique work. Elusive and can run. Makes poor decisions with the ball. Underclassman really could
have used another year of school.

6. Jesse Palmer, Florida, 6-2, 231. Put himself on draft boards with his performance at the Senior
Bowl. Was benched at Florida, but has arm strength, mobility and skills. Can escape the rush. Is
capable of putting the ball in tight spots when he has to. Has not made good decisions on the field. In
some games, couldn't hit a garage door. Some teams love him; some wouldn't touch him.

7. Mike McMahon, Rutgers, 6-2, 207. Has interesting skills and an upside. As a runner, shows
speed and moves. Has a decent arm and sound mechanics, but is an inconsistent passer. He is a little
raw as a quarterback. Needs to improve his decision-making skills. Stock has risen. Has a swagger to
him.

8. Josh Booty, Louisiana State, 6-2, 221. If you judged him solely on athleticism and arm strength,
he'd be a first round pick. Also has some mobility. Predictably, looked good at the combine. Is erratic
in his play. Underclassman who hasn't been as productive as you would like. Former baseball player.

9. David Rivers, Western Carolina, 6-2, 223. Gifted player with a decent arm. Release is quirky.
Can escape and is mobile. Has not played much and is a raw prospect in need of development. Has
been rising of late.

10. Sage Rosenfels, Iowa State, 6-4, 228. Big, athletic quarterback who can move. Might be
better suited for a roll out style offense. Doesn't have a great arm. Throws some questionable passes.

11. Josh Heupel, Oklahoma, 6-1, 215. Has the intangibles to be a field general. Reads defenses,
follows progressions and delivers the ball with accuracy. Shows great poise. Below-average arm. Can
avoid the rush, but doesn't have great mobility.

12. Cleo Lemon, Arkansas State, 6-2, 226. Small-school passer who put up big numbers but did
not win. He is a developmental prospect with an upside. A similar prospect to Ted White. Not real
athletic. Needs to improve his accuracy.

Cormac
03-19-2001, 01:43 PM
Good post Mark M. I agree with what you are saying.

My opinion is that I doubt we'd get any value from SF. Garcia is a good starter, but whichever QB they let go probably wouldn't be worth the effort of a trade, and might be had for nothing eventually, if cut anyway.

We're going to have to sign a stop-gap at least as competition for Collins. Assuming we don't get Green (which I still think will happen), I'd also like Beuerlein if we try to get a proven starter. If we take a chance on someone for competition purposes, I hope we get someone with some possible upside. Shane Matthews has shown he can be effective. Guys like Banks, Dilfer and Scott Mitchell have topped out if you ask me.

As far as a prospect in this draft, I still like Quincy Carter. As an SEC fan I have seen him quite a few times, and he is a tremendous athlete. What little I know of the other guys is from highlights, so I'm no expert. Carter should have stayed for his senior year IMO, especially as he disappointed last season, but he's worth a shot, seeing as we need to pick someone up anyway. Apart from that I like Tuiasosopo. I'd stay away from Jesse Palmer (wasn't near as accurate as Doug Johnson in college IMO), I can't understand why Booty came out early, and while Mike McMahon looks good on paper, the arrogance turns me off too. If we are going to draft anyone with even a chance of letting him start, it would have to be Weinke IMO. He might be as good as many of those 2nd rate FAs out there. my2c.

Gaz
03-19-2001, 01:55 PM
If we are going to draft anyone with even a chance of letting him start, it would have to be Weinke IMO. He might be as good as many of those 2nd rate FAs out there.

My point exactly, Cormac. Weinke and Brees are the two guys who may be ready to start in the NFL. Both are leaders of the team, with a good understanding of the game.

Weinke is taller, with a better arm, and does NOT cost a 1st Round pick. Can you say Richard Seymour, DT at #12?

I was originally opposed to this idea when milkman brought it up, because of that neck injury. But if we were seriously considering Aikman and his concussed brain cells, we would be better served to draft Weinke in the 3rd and start him at QB for the R&G.

If Weinke does not pan out, the draft one of the higher quality QBs coming out in ’02. I am coming to the conclusion that we should draft our own, instead of depending on retreads to fill out QB position. I know that the Chiefs historically suck at developing QBs, but this is not the old Chiefs. We have a new regime in place, and I am willing to take a chance that they can develop Weinke into a starting NFL QB.

xoxo~
gaz
ready to suffer some rookie blues.

Gaz
03-19-2001, 01:58 PM
TSN hss a nice comparison matrix on the draft QBs that illustrates the strength and weakness of the players in relation to each other:

http://www.sportingnews.com/nfl/draft/rankings/qb/index.html

xoxo~
gaz
eyeing the Weinke wagon.

Mark M
03-19-2001, 02:02 PM
Cormac--
Extremely good points. With Walsh back in SF and having some input, I would also be a bit leary of anyone he would be willing to part with. The guy does have a knack for finding good QBs (kinda like Denver and RBs). I really haven't seen Carter, so I can't say one way or the other. I trust your judgement on him, but we'll need someone who can develop him (I'm not sure how good of a QB Coach this Shea guy is).

Greg--
Thanks for the info. I've seen a few of these QB rankings, and this one seem to be the most honest (the "couldn't hit a garage door" line is pretty funny). From what is listed there, I'd take Hueppel over Brees. He's a bit bigger, more mobile and seems to have a better downfield arm (at least from the few games I watched of both of these guys). Tui seems like a great QB in the right system. Kind of like a Bradshaw type: not the most gifted physically, but has the toughness and leadership you look for in a QB.

It should be interesting. I got a feeling that the Chiefs will draft at least one of these QBs. I guess we'll see what Saunders can do with him/them. I'm sure this debate will continue until mid-April.

MM
~~Can hardly wait to see who DV and CP think is the Chiefs QBOTF.

Mark M
03-19-2001, 02:11 PM
Gaz--
Weinke does look better than I thought according to that rating. Brees looks impressive as well, but I still think that the Chiefs need a guy with more arm strength—the quick slants are great, but the O must keep the D honest with the deep threat, and I don't think that Brees gives us that, nor does Hueppel. I like Tui just because he's a gamer.

I used to like McMahon, but I think I've joined the Weinke bandwagon.

MM
~~Will probably switch bandwagons sometime in the future ... but is riding Weinke's right now.

Cormac
03-19-2001, 03:00 PM
Thanks for the agreement Mark M and Gaz. BTW Gaz, in that TSN table it's interesting to see that MacMahon and Booty (both of whom are supposed to have big arms I thought) are ranked behind Brees in arm strength (#7 vs #21 and #9)???
Not trying to pick nits.

kcred
03-19-2001, 03:43 PM
To me, all those stats prove their is no QB except Vick coming out this year. Granted we should take one later on, unless we want Ornstein to carry the clipboard, but next year is when the studs come out.

Coogs
03-19-2001, 08:26 PM
I could go along with Wienke as a starter right away. I really believe the reason MOST 1st year QB's falter a bit is because they are usually selected by clubs that have many weaknesses on offense. Either at receiver, or O-line, or both! I think these two areas are both strengts on our ball club, and a rookie might just do well.

With regards to Carmazzi and Rattay. I wish I had time to find an article I read a few weeks ago about these two as told by Bill Walsh. He said Carmazzi was a real project, and needed a whole lot of work before he would be anywhere near ready to be an NFL QB. He said Rattay was way ahead on the learning curve. I really doubt from the sound of this Rattay would be the one released, and that Carmazzi would help much.

One other note, this time with regards to The Sporting News's QB rankings in Gaz's post at 2:58PM. There were five catagories that 26 QB's were ranked from 1 to 26. The catagories were - arm strength, accuracy/delivery, field vision, running ability, and pocket awarness. Mike McMahon posted scores of 21st,15th,19th,11th,and 13th respectively. Yet his OVERALL ranking is 7th?????

Gaz
03-19-2001, 08:46 PM
Coogs-

Odd, isn't it?

BTW, here is the TSN bottom line and Pompei's blurb concerning McMahon:

Bottom line: McMahon made the most of post-season games and workouts, but his character still is a question and his tools are only average. He has shown a better arm than a lot of guys in this class, but he still is not talented enough to warrant a pick in the first four rounds.

Dan Pompei analysis
Has interesting skills and an upside. As a runner, shows speed and moves. Has a decent arm and sound mechanics, but is an inconsistent passer. A little raw as a quarterback. Needs to improve decision making. Stock has risen. Has a swagger to him.

That swagger must count for a lot...

xoxo~
gaz
conspicuously swaggerless.

Chiefnj
03-19-2001, 08:47 PM
I advocated trying to get Rattay on the other board a few weeks ago in exchange for a third round pick and people thought I was nuts.

Anyway, for some reason we got a lot of SF preseason games here on the eastcoast last year and Rattay looked pretty good. I don't remember what his stats were but he had a pretty good field presence. I remember thinking to myself "damn, SF steps in sh*t with every QB they take."

Being a big FSU fan I could also live with giving Weinke a shot. I think too much is made about his age. In two or three years he'll be the same age that guys like Gannon, Grbac and Flutie started hitting their stride. The benefits of Weinke: a) arm strength, b) size, c) maturity, and, d) ran a somewhat complex offense which will probably in some ways be similar to what Saunders wants to implement.

Gaz
03-19-2001, 09:08 PM
Chiefnj-

Another major benefit to Weinke is that he will not cost a 1st Round pick [Greeen, Brees].

xoxo~
gaz
testing the Weinke bandwagon waters [and mixing his metaphors].

RJ
03-19-2001, 09:19 PM
I have nothing to add to the topic, as all relevant points have been well covered, but am curious as to what Gaz The Impaler is doing posting at 10:00 at night.

I wouldn't normally question a fellow board member's habits, but seeing something so far from the usual MO causes concern that the fellow board member in question may have been abducted by aliens who are playing some crazy mind control game in hopes of dictating fan opinion concerning the KC Chiefs QB prospects.

Call me crazy or paranoid, but stranger things have happened.

Gaz
03-19-2001, 09:21 PM
rjintx-

Coincidentally, Mrs. Gaz just called me to bed, and I hasten to obey.

Good night, all.

xoxo~
gaz
heeding his mistress’ call.

ct
03-20-2001, 09:43 AM
Now that is an insightful peek into one BB members' home life I could have done without!! :eek:


ct

1punkyQB
03-20-2001, 10:11 AM
Staying off the Weinke bandwagon. I think he's a product of age and dominant surrounding talent(Plus he's a Nole. http://sports.findlaw.com/tarnished/, just ignore team #15, can't blame the guy for wanting his chalupa). Like Montana, Brees can throw the deep ball though he doesn't have a cannon because he's accurate. He won't throw it 60 yards, but he generally won't have to. Of course, it's anybody's guess who the next Marino (or Todd Blackledge) really is, just throwing in my 2 cents.

Gaz
03-20-2001, 11:30 AM
1punkyQB-

Weinke is taller, has a much better arm and he costs a 3rd instead of a 1st. That way, I get Richard Seymour with the #12 or the misguided, deluded HB Homers get McAllister, Tomlinson, Bennett or Jordan at #12. Either way, Weinke is more bang for our buck at #77 than Brees at #12.

I prefer Weinke to Brees.

xoxo~
gaz
stingy with those picks.

1punkyQB
03-20-2001, 11:52 AM
I agree I'd rather have the bigger, stronger guy if other things are equal, but in this case I think Brees has advantages in intelligence, accuracy, and upside Weinke doesn't. Just see Weinke being more like Casey Weldon than Brad Johnson. If we were to settle on Brees, a trade-down would seem sensible. I'd rather take Beuerlein, a proven commodity, and draft the best available players every time.

milkman
03-21-2001, 07:11 AM
Punky,
While it's true that Montana, like Brees, did not have a strong arm, even at ND he was accurate when throwing the ball down the field 30 yards. And those 30 yarders were pretty spirals.
I've seen punts that are prettier, and more accurate, than some of Brees' 25, 30 yard pass attempts.