Jesse Jackson is on MSNBC calling for black entertainers to stop using "N*gger"

[jAZ]

I think this Imus thing might have an impact that both ends of the spectrum can support.

Jackson was on Countdown and Olbermann called him on the fact that Imus basically had adopted the language of rap music coming out of the black community. Jackson said that it needs to change across the spectrum and applauded The Comedy Store for not permitting comedians to use "N*igger" on stage and referenced a few other outlets with similar policies (radio DJs).

[Jenson71]

Does this mean "nig.ga" is still acceptable?

[Donger]

That's nice. I wonder if he will call on Jews to stop calling each other "Hymies" soon?

[Mr. Kotter]

Does this mean "nig.ga" is still acceptable?

*****, please. :harumph:

[ChiefFripp]

Does anyone take JJ seriously anymore?

[ChiefaRoo]

Does anyone take JJ seriously anymore?

Kiss it... apologize...........

[patteeu]

I think this whole bruhaha is silly. Jackson, Imus, and Olberman are all nappy headed hos as far as I'm concerned.

[Logical]

Maybe it is laid back CA but this is not getting much play around here.

[stevieray]

Black entertainers?

How about starting in the home...? And fathers stop being deadbeat dads...become positive role models to look up to, instead of falling back on a centuires old slur to demean. belittle and sometimes even kill.

I pray for the day when this part of OUR(sorry,ttc) past truly becomes the past.

Tiger Woods made a half a billion in just endorsements. FIVE HUNDRED MILLION DOLLARS...for hitting a golf ball.

Let's stop pretending that the opportunity doesn't exist. Some people will be poor, and some won't....it's always been that way, and always will be.

[Logical]

Black entertainers?

How about starting in the home...? And fathers stop being deadbeat dads...become positive role models to look up to, instead of falling back on a centuires old slur to demean. belittle and sometimes even kill.

I pray for the day when this part of OUR(sorry,ttc) past truly becomes the past.

Tiger Woods made a half a billion in just endorsements. FIVE HUNDRED MILLION DOLLARS...for hitting a golf ball.

Let's stop pretending that the opportunity doesn't exist. Some people will be poor, and some won't....it's always been that way, and always will be.

Though I admire your dream, not everyone can be a Tiger Woods or a Michael Jordan.

[stevieray]

Though I admire your dream, not everyone can be a Tiger Woods or a Michael Jordan.

And even you can't be Bill Gates. Why?

Everyone isn't going to be Tiger Woods because he is special. He is incredibily gifted (by God, IMO)...everyone isn't going to be Michael Jordan because it's suppose to be that way...if everyone was Michael Jordan, there'd be no basketball.

"when everyone is special, no one is...."

[recxjake]

Good for JJ.

[Deberg_1990]

And even you can't be Bill Gates. Why?

Everyone isn't going to be Tiger Woods because he is special. He is incredibily gifted (by God, IMO)...everyone isn't going to be Michael Jordan because it's suppose to be that way...if everyone was Michael Jordan, there'd be no basketball.

"when everyone is special, no one is...."



True...........alot of these entertainers such as rappers use the hardcore gangster rap scene to break out of their poverty status.....at least they are making money and becoming rich trying to better their social status in life. Thats probably why they are not attacked more by the Jesse Jackson's and Sharptons of the world....

[Silock]

Jesse Jackson is not the emperor of black people!

[NewPhin]

But...but... Jesse Jackson only attacks white people. He never points any fingers at the black community. He never attacks negativity in hip hop or launches any campaigns against black entertainers.

All sarcasm aside, I applaud JJ for this pretty thoughtful take on the issue. It's hard for a white guy to be sensitive to how badly this sort of thing supposedly hurts black people when they hear songs about big-bootied bitches juggling dese nutz on the radio on a daily basis.

[noa]

I don't know why anyone who isn't a black entertainer cares about what Jesse Jackson says to black entertainers. He can say whatever he wants, and I doubt that entertainers will listen to him. I doubt even further that this will have any impact on our lives.

[NewPhin]

True...........alot of these entertainers such as rappers use the hardcore gangster rap scene to break out of their poverty status.....at least they are making money and becoming rich trying to better their social status in life. Thats probably why they are not attacked more by the Jesse Jackson's and Sharptons of the world....

The problem, imo, is the fine line between the two. There is pretending to be that way to break out of the scene, there is actually being that way and breaking out of the scene, and there is just still being in the scene. I think we've seen that with the killing of the Denver Bronco player. Upward mobility, in the African American community, seems to be far too routed into either becoming an athlete, rapper, or drug dealer. I'm not saying that's the reality, but I am saying that's the, unfortunate, perception of reality. As such, when all these people get to the top, they still seem to fraternize pretty effortlessly. So you have "high class" parties for the rich that consist of athletes, rappers, and real gangsters. Unfortunately, one of these groups is packing heat and not afraid to use it.

It would be like if, among white people, there was very little difference between a Tony Soprano and a Bill Gates. So they're both attending the same parties and running in the same circles. White prosperity has diversified to the point that the two worlds (illegal and legal) don't really come into contact. That being said, you still see this from time to time among white people. The town I grew up in had a huge money laundering ring for the mafia. The people all had respectable jobs and were respected members of the community, though the town always whispered that something fishy was going on. Over time, quite a few of those "respected" members of society have shown up killed, execution style.

[Logical]

And even you can't be Bill Gates. Why?

Everyone isn't going to be Tiger Woods because he is special. He is incredibily gifted (by God, IMO)...everyone isn't going to be Michael Jordan because it's suppose to be that way...if everyone was Michael Jordan, there'd be no basketball.

"when everyone is special, no one is...."Me not being Bill Gates is not similar. I can succeed and be very well off simply through hard work, I will acknowledge that it is not as simple for a young black person.

[headsnap]

Bill Cosby cracks me up...

[Jenson71]

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[stevieray]

Me not being Bill Gates is not similar. I can succeed and be very well off simply through hard work, I will acknowledge that it is not as simple for a young black person.
good point, I bet colin powell had it all handed to him...and tiger and michael too...they didn't put in any hard work.

geez, jim, at least try the meat instead of just picking at the salad.

[Logical]

you're playing semantics.How so?

[HolmeZz]

JIBBITY-JIBBITY RAT-A-TAT-TAT

[WilliamTheIrish]

Good luck on that quest, Jesse.

[OnTheWarpath58]

Me not being Bill Gates is not similar. I can succeed and be very well off simply through hard work, I will acknowledge that it is not as simple for a young black person.

Why the **** not?

Life is what you make of it.

I don't care what color your skin is, if you have hopes and dreams for your future, and are willing to sacrifice and work hard to get there, you can.

If you've resigned yourself to failure just becuase of the color of your skin, you're gonna fail.

[Logical]

Why the **** not?

Life is what you make of it.

I don't care what color your skin is, if you have hopes and dreams for your future, and are willing to sacrifice and work hard to get there, you can.

If you've resigned yourself to failure just becuase of the color of your skin, you're gonna fail.

Nice platitude, but it has no relevance to reality.

[Logical]

Nice platitude, but it has no relevance to reality.

I am not saying blacks cannot succeed, but the reality is they have to work two to three time as hard to achieve the same results.

[Donger]

I am not saying blacks cannot succeed, but the reality is they have to work two to three time as hard to achieve the same results.

Really? How did you reach that figure?

[Logical]

Really? How did you reach that figure?Observation

[Donger]

Observation

And you quantified it how?

[Pitt Gorilla]

And you quantified it how?I'm guessing a metric.

[OnTheWarpath58]

I am not saying blacks cannot succeed, but the reality is they have to work two to three time as hard to achieve the same results.


Sorry, but that's crap.

Attitudes like this are part of the problem.

Kids hear garbage like this come from their parents mouths, now they have a built-in excuse. Some of them are smart enough to break away from this notion, and some carry it throughout their adult years.

[Logical]

Sorry, but that's crap.

Attitudes like this are part of the problem.

Kids hear garbage like this come from their parents mouths, now they have a built-in excuse. Some of them are smart enough to break away from this notion, and some carry it throughout their adult years.I see, don't prepare them for the challenge ahead, pretend life is all candy and kisses and everything will work out.

Is that how you live your life and raise your children?

If so I feel sorry for them.

[Mr. Kotter]

I am not saying blacks cannot succeed, but the reality is they have to work two to three time as hard to achieve the same results.
I see students who are American blacks....and because of the refugees in our community from Sudan, Ethiopia, and other places, I see plenty of black students who are not yet citizens, who are immigrant blacks.

I know these are generalizations, but they are based on 15 years of teaching:

Guess which students are, generally, more capable? American blacks.

Guess which students tend to, generally, be the hardest working? Immigrant blacks.

Guess which students, generally, make more excuses? American blacks.

Guess which students have, nearly without exception, done better in college? Immigrant blacks.


Reject it if you wish, but from what I know and have read....my experience it pretty typical.

But no one wants to talk about WHY these things are happening.

[Logical]

I see students who are American blacks....and because of the refugees in our community from Sudan, Ethiopia, and other places, I see plenty of black students who are not yet citizens, who are immigrant blacks.

I know these are generalizations, but they are based on 15 years of teaching:

Guess which students are, generally, more capable? American blacks.

Guess which students tend to, generally, be the hardest working? Immigrant blacks.

Guess which students, generally, make more excuses? American blacks.

Guess which students have, nearly without exception, done better in college? Immigrant blacks.


Reject it if you wish, but from what I know and have read....my experience it pretty typical.

But no one wants to talk about WHY these things are happening.Do you want to tell me it is as easy for any black as it is for an anglo?

[OnTheWarpath58]

I see, don't prepare them for the challenge ahead, pretend life is all candy and kisses and everything will work out.

Is that how you live your life and raise your children?

If so I feel sorry for them.

First, I don't have kids.

Second, to tell kids that they have to work 3 times harder than a white person to see the same results is setting them up for failure, IMO. The kid either gives up right away, or goes though life with the idea they're never gonna get a fair shake.

Regardless of color, life is a challenge. Many black children are at a disadvantage simply because the idea they are disadvantaged is constantly drilled into their heads, instead of being supported and believed in.

[Mr. Kotter]

Do you want to tell me it is as easy for any black as it is for an anglo?In most instances, the difference is minimal or non-existence.

The REAL factor? Socio-economic circumstances.

If the anglo is poor...from an HUD development? Yeah, today....it's really makes little or no difference whether you are black or white. Poor people, regardless of skin color....are the ones who are the real underclass and underprivileged in this country.

And it has next to nothing to do with skin color. Which, FTR....is the way Dr. King would have wanted it. I can't help but think he's smiling about that, at least. The color-blind society isn't here....yet; but we are getting much closer in 40 years than many would have imagined.

Even if he's in despair over this nation's inability to talk about it, and to understand it---and to get past it.

[OnTheWarpath58]

I see students who are American blacks....and because of the refugees in our community from Sudan, Ethiopia, and other places, I see plenty of black students who are not yet citizens, who are immigrant blacks.

I know these are generalizations, but they are based on 15 years of teaching:

Guess which students are, generally, more capable? American blacks.

Guess which students tend to, generally, be the hardest working? Immigrant blacks.

Guess which students, generally, make more excuses? American blacks.

Guess which students have, nearly without exception, done better in college? Immigrant blacks.


Reject it if you wish, but from what I know and have read....my experience it pretty typical.

But no one wants to talk about WHY these things are happening.

Thanks for your insight, Kotter. I was hoping one of our residident teachers would see this and share what they've seen on this subject.

[Logical]

In most instances, the difference is minimal or non-existence.

The REAL factor? Socio-economic circumstances.

If the anglo is poor...from an HUD development? Yeah, today....it's really makes little or no difference whether you are black or white. Poor people, regardless of skin color....are the ones who are the real underclass and underprivileged in this country.

And it has next to nothing to do with skin color. Which, FTR....is the way Dr. King would have wanted it. I can't help but think he's smiling about that, at least. The color-blind society isn't here....yet; but we are getting much closer in 40 years than many would have imagined.

Even if he's in despair over this nation's inability to talk about it, and to understand it---and to get past it.
And you were black and experienced the racism when?

[Mr. Kotter]

And you were black and experienced the racism when?

That's as lame as the other side saying, "but I have black friends. I like black people." :rolleyes:

It's an absolute fuggin' cop-out... from someone named Logical, even....ROFL

Oh, the irony...heh.

[patteeu]

I think people disagree with my posts because my avatar is black.

[Logical]

That's as lame as the other side saying, "but I have black friends. I like black people." :rolleyes:

It's an absolute fuggin' cop-out... from someone named Logical, even....ROFL

Oh, the irony...heh.No it is being realistic and observant. I have seen the prejudice holding them back first hand, it is not a fantasy, no more than the glass ceiling for women is a fantasy.

[Jenson71]

That's as lame as the other side saying, "but I have black friends. I like black people." :rolleyes:

It's an absolute fuggin' cop-out... from someone named Logical, even....ROFL

Oh, the irony...heh.

How many immigrant blacks and American blacks have you taught Mr. Kotter? I'd be willing to bet you can count them on one hand.

[Logical]

I think people disagree with my posts because my avatar is black.My posting is color blind, I am in At Work mode.:p

[OnTheWarpath58]

How many immigrant blacks and American blacks have you taught Mr. Kotter? I'd be willing to bet you can count them on one hand.

You really think he's gonna throw that out there having "a handful" of black students over a 15 year career?

[Jenson71]

You really think he's gonna throw that out there having "a handful" of black students over a 15 year career?

Yeah.

[Logical]

How many immigrant blacks and American blacks have you taught Mr. Kotter? I'd be willing to bet you can count them on one hand.On noze you would have to be wrong South Dakota is a known hot bed for black immigrants.ROFL

[Joe Seahawk]

I did not read through the thread so maybe someone else already said this but, Jesse Jackson should also call for Chinese couch manafacturers to quit using that term..

:)

[Mr. Kotter]

How many immigrant blacks and American blacks have you taught Mr. Kotter? I'd be willing to bet you can count them on one hand.

Try again, Jens. I teach at the most culturally diverse school in the state.

Our HS is 20% minority; we have 120 students who are ESL (immigrants). Of those, about one third make their way into my classes each year (I teach required classes)....so about 40 ESL kids per year....and about 55 minority kids each year. So over the past 5 years alone....I've had about 200 "immigrant" students, and at least another 100 or so that are minority.

Next question? :rolleyes:

[Mr. Kotter]

On noze you would have to be wrong South Dakota is a known hot bed for black immigrants.ROFL

In MOST SD schools, you'd be right; in mine you are wrong...as I said to Jenson:

20% of our student body is minority; 120 "immigrant" kids

[Mr. Kotter]

Yeah.

Jens, are you really becoming this big of an ass....? :shake:

[Cochise]

Good thing Imus is a tard, or else he might have to apologize to the Duke lacrosse players.

[HolmeZz]

Try again, Jens. I teach at the most culturally diverse school in the state.

That probably says more about the state than it does about your school.

[Jenson71]

Try again, Jens. I teach at the most culturally diverse school in the state.

Our HS is 20% minority; we have 120 students who are ESL (immigrants). Of those, about one third make their way into my classes each year (I teach required classes)....so about 40 ESL kids per year....and about 55 minority kids each year. So over the past 5 years alone....I've had about 200 "immigrant" students, and at least another 100 or so that are minority.

Next question? :rolleyes:

Do you mind telling what high school it is?

[Mr. Kotter]

That probably says more about the state than it does about your school.

So, 400 kids at my school don't count....eh?

And you are trying to paint me the biggot? :rolleyes:

:shake:

[Mr. Kotter]

Do you mind telling what high school it is?

I'll do it in a PM.

[Jenson71]

I'll do it in a PM.

Nevermind. I know which one it is. I believe you. I would have been willing to bet, and I would have lost. When I lived in South Dakota, I never saw a black person.

[ClevelandBronco]

The REAL factor? Socio-economic circumstances.

If the anglo is poor...from an HUD development? Yeah, today....it's really makes little or no difference whether you are black or white. Poor people, regardless of skin color....are the ones who are the real underclass and underprivileged in this country.

Teach it, Mr. Kot-tair.

[Mr. Kotter]

Nevermind. I know which one it is. I believe you. I would have been willing to bet, and I would have lost.I just went through my roster: out of 148 kids....I teach 33 "minority" kids a day, this semester. Of those, 19 are black (11 immigrant, 8 African American...from what I know) Each semester the number changes a bit, but it's close.

FWIW, Jens....in your "free" time (heh), you should consider reading Ruby Payne's stuff on "Understanding Poverty." It's excellent. Here's a link to whet your appetite....

http://www.education-world.com/a_issues/chat/chat119.shtml

[Jenson71]

Jens, are you really becoming this big of an ass....? :shake:

No, but you can understand my skepticism. Hey, I'm just making sure there are checks and balances. I didn't mean to offend you.

[Mr. Kotter]

No, but you can understand my skepticism. Hey, I'm just making sure there are checks and balances. I didn't mean to offend you.

If you didn't know me a little better, I might understand it more I guess.

I was just disappointed you assumed I'd make something like that up; integrity is a big deal for me...remember the Clinton discussion?

[Jenson71]

If you didn't know me a little better, I might understand it more I guess.

I was just disappointed you assumed I'd make something like that up; integrity is a big deal for me...remember the Clinton discussion?

I didn't think you'd make it up. But you didn't give us any numbers at first. Knowing what I know about South Dakota, and even Sioux Falls, which is less than 2% black, and knowing there are probably 5-8k high school students in Sioux Falls, and there are 3 main high schools, I figured you were only talking about 5-20 students, which would have affected the discussion and your generalities points.

[Mr. Kotter]

I didn't think you'd make it up. But you didn't give us any numbers at first. Knowing what I know about South Dakota, and even Sioux Falls, which is less than 2% black, and knowing there are probably 5-8k high school students in Sioux Falls, and there are 3 main high schools, I figured you were only talking about 5-20 students, which would have affected the discussion and your generalities points.
Fair enough; I just would think you could trust me to be honest about something like this.

Counting immigrants, Sioux Falls black population is actually about 5-6% these days; it's happened over the last 10 years or so....so the stats on some of the associated websites lag behind the real numbers.

[Silock]

No it is being realistic and observant. I have seen the prejudice holding them back first hand, it is not a fantasy, no more than the glass ceiling for women is a fantasy.

Well, I for one, certainly have a fantasy about a woman on my glass ceiling.

[StcChief]

Jesse Jackson is on MSNBC calling for black entertainers to stop using "N*gger"

but their audience (black) loves it... What's a poor talentless hack to do?

[penchief]

True...........alot of these entertainers such as rappers use the hardcore gangster rap scene to break out of their poverty status.....at least they are making money and becoming rich trying to better their social status in life. Thats probably why they are not attacked more by the Jesse Jackson's and Sharptons of the world....

That's all fine and good but I find it hard to believe that offensive language is their meal ticket. If they have talent they don't need to degrade people in their music.

Your statement says more about the consumer than it does the artist. Which I agree that the consumer is partly at fault. However, just like cigarettes and credit cards, our youth are being bombarded by a popular/corporate culture that is driven by profit and greed. And we aren't doing much to change that.

[oldandslow]

What Kotter fails to mention is that "racism" in South Dakota is not directed toward African Blacks or African-Americans. The state's population is less than 2% black and people here do not come in contact with African-Americans very often. However, 18% of the state's population is Lakota, Dakota, or Nakota. And you damn well better believe that racism is very real to these folks.

BTW - I teach at the state's flagship university. Even at this "liberal bastion" only about 1 or 2% of our students are American Indian. With a state where nearly 20% of its population is Indian, this is horrific.

I am Choctaw (grew up in OKlahoma) and as such am able to adopt American Indian Children. You would not believe how my wife and adopted Lakota children are sometimes treated (she is white) when I am not there and she is alone with 2 very small, very Indian, children. It's shameful.

BTW - I do not wear my race on my sleeve. Hell, I support the Chiefs, do not call for removing every Indian mascot, and have asked for no special favors. That I have a Ph.D. tells people that you can make it, no matter your heritage. However, I am also very aware that I just look like I have a good tan even in winter am not as "red" as the two kids in my home at this time.

Racism is real. We experience it often. That does not mean you can't overcome it, but I do not think it is fair to say that the color of your skin does not matter.

[ROYC75]

ROFL Good Luck with dat............ ROFL That will never happen. But why stop there Jessie, go all the way man, get the FCC to regulate / censor the whole music industry. All cultures of music....... it's nothing but poision to our kids ears.

Oh, I can hear it now........... It violates our Freedom Of Speech . STFU

Hello here, Imus calling !

[tiptap]

Non Racism is an abstract position. The biological reality is that animals always make discriminating determinations based upon visual clues. The brain is hard wired to make such distinctions. To overcome this requires an active process to alleviate the inherent biological position on part of an individual and society. Many would say that if it is natural then let it play out. But survival mode biological imperative is not the most logical or leads to the most successful position for a species or a country. Even though individual competitiveness is up front in evolutionary processes, the success of a species, and by analogy a country, is represented by diversity. To accomplish this means that one does have to acknowledge prejudice is natural. But it is a superior, human recognition that it is everyone's best interest to actively use our free will thinking process to limit prejudice for the greater good.

[BucEyedPea]

Imus controversy was far more sexist than it was racist.
I know men, both black and white, rule the world still, and are blind to the point. But ask some women how they feel about it.
He called accomplished women "ho's"?
That's far worse than a reference to a group's true hair attributes.
It goes to a person's character and implies black women are all whores.

[Chief Henry]

ON MSNBC this morning, the President of BET was interviewed. I'm paraphrasing here. He had a comment that really pissed me off big time. He said there was a big difference between artist and artistic music and what political pundits like Imus said.

SO if I write a song, record it and use the words Nappy Head Hoes and black N_____ can suck my Boals, thats artistic freedom of expression and he'll
promote it and say its not racist ?

Give me a f'n break. He's so full of shit.

[BucEyedPea]

Well, I for one, certainly have a fantasy about a woman on my glass ceiling.
LMAO
At least you don't hide cameras in clear shampoo bottles and set them in a girl's shower or hide a camera in a floor grate of a women's restroom.

Personally, I think the glass ceiling phenomena is a false issue.

[StcChief]

HP and Carly Fiorini ... she got the axe after the Compaq merger.... The HP family runs that show.

[jAZ]

ON MSNBC this morning, the President of BET was interviewed. I'm paraphrasing here. He had a comment that really pissed me off big time. He said there was a big difference between artist and artistic music and what political pundits like Imus said.

SO if I write a song, record it and use the words Nanny Head Hoes and black N_____ can suck my Boals, thats artistic freedom of expression and he'll
promote it and say its not racist ?

Give me a f'n break. He's so full of shit.
He was on MSNBC just before JJ was, and he was called out for that position by David Gregory as well.

It's BS.

[Sully]

I just went through my roster: out of 148 kids....I teach 33 "minority" kids a day, this semester. Of those, 19 are black (11 immigrant, 8 African American...from what I know) Each semester the number changes a bit, but it's close.

FWIW, Jens....in your "free" time (heh), you should consider reading Ruby Payne's stuff on "Understanding Poverty." It's excellent. Here's a link to whet your appetite....

http://www.education-world.com/a_issues/chat/chat119.shtml
I absolutely LOVED that book.
Weird for required reading.

[NewPhin]

I absolutely LOVED that book.
Weird for required reading.

Ruby Payne workshops are pretty good, I agree. I think that some of her stuff is a little stereotypical, but I also think there's a lot of truth in the stereotypes.

[penchief]

ON MSNBC this morning, the President of BET was interviewed. I'm paraphrasing here. He had a comment that really pissed me off big time. He said there was a big difference between artist and artistic music and what political pundits like Imus said.

Well, if he didn't believe that he would be a hypocrite. As far as I'm concerned, anyone who reaps a financial reward through the exploitation of such language (which Imus was not) is as guilty or more guilty than Imus. And if they don't believe so, they are being huge hypocrites.

IMO.

[Mr. Kotter]

I absolutely LOVED that book.
Weird for required reading.

In-services for us; not "required" really.

Great nonetheless. :thumb:

[Sully]

In-services for us; not "required" really.

Great nonetheless. :thumb:
I meant that it was required reading for me that I didn't hate, which (at Mizzou, anyway) was very rare.

[Mr. Kotter]

What Kotter fails to mention is that "racism" in South Dakota is not directed toward African Blacks or African-Americans. The state's population is less than 2% black and people here do not come in contact with African-Americans very often. However, 18% of the state's population is Lakota, Dakota, or Nakota. And you damn well better believe that racism is very real to these folks.

BTW - I teach at the state's flagship university. Even at this "liberal bastion" only about 1 or 2% of our students are American Indian. With a state where nearly 20% of its population is Indian, this is horrific.

I am Choctaw (grew up in OKlahoma) and as such am able to adopt American Indian Children. You would not believe how my wife and adopted Lakota children are sometimes treated (she is white) when I am not there and she is alone with 2 very small, very Indian, children. It's shameful.

BTW - I do not wear my race on my sleeve. Hell, I support the Chiefs, do not call for removing every Indian mascot, and have asked for no special favors. That I have a Ph.D. tells people that you can make it, no matter your heritage. However, I am also very aware that I just look like I have a good tan even in winter am not as "red" as the two kids in my home at this time.

Racism is real. We experience it often. That does not mean you can't overcome it, but I do not think it is fair to say that the color of your skin does not matter.

I took some time, so I could give this a more reflective and thoughtful response oldandslow....so I wasn't ignoring you. :)

First, with all due respect, I didn't mention the "discrimination" issue in South Dakota, because I didn't think it had much bearing on the specific conversation I was involved in. In my mind, we were engaged in a discussion about the discrimination and the African American community.

FWIW, I agree with the majority of what you have said...even as it relates to African Americans, but ESPECIALLY as it relates to Native Americans. I think the battle over discrimination against Native Americans is fundamentally different from that waged for/with African Americans. Sure, there are lots of parallels, but I'd compare it to.....WWII and the Korean War: the battle for equal rights for Native Americans has, sadly, become the "Forgotten War." Much remains to be done, to address that part of American society.

Racism is real; I just think it's no longer an issue that we can allow people to use as an excuse, or a crutch, anymore. I also think we HAVE come a LONG way on the issue in the past 30 years. As a bicultural person, I can understand and relate to your views. However, I wonder whether many minority people may be overly sensitive to what they consider to be racism. Our society, has become much more course and less courteous to each other.

I've been in many situations where a person of color I was with, seemed initially offended by someone or something that was said. In subsequent conversation though, we'd discuss it....and I had taken a totally different view of what had happened. In many of those instances, the person I was with would say something along the lines of, "Oh, I guess I can see that now. I was probably just being too defensive." Of course, in other instances it was I who was oblivious to what, it turned out, was a racist or bigoted sort of remark or reaction.

So, yeah; racism still exists. I'm just trying to imagine a society where all of us....rise above whatever excuses we can make for ourselves. I'm not saying such excuses aren't real. I just think that in the end, using the victim card and blaming racism is....ultimately....counter-productive.

JMHO

[scott free]

My whole problem with discussing the race issue...here & with black friends & aquaintances thru the years, is that ultimately the onus is placed on white people.

Black folks will pay some lip service to "we need to fix our community", but it always comes down to mean & ignorant 'ol whitey holding them back.

I've never owned a slave, as far back as i can research neither has my family, i've never truly been in a position to "keep a man down"...so just what in the hell am i supposed to apologize for or change about myself???

There have been & ALWAYS will be white people who dont trust or flat out hate blacks...its just a very sad fact of life. What too many blacks never want to talk about is the other side of that coin, those blacks who simply despise all things white & have no intention of changing. Its ALWAYS (or atleast seems to be) one-sided.

I remember the x & i renting "Kings of Comedy" years ago & we had to FF past everyone but Steve Harvey, it was that bad, the rest just started on white people & basically never let up...why cant we do that??? Any white comedian who tried it would quickly find himself selling hot dogs on the corner. My point being...I AM SICK TO DEATH OF THIS DAMN DOUBLE STANDARD.

Is rap to blame for the black communities woes???...NO, the breakdown of families is IMO, but some rap certainly strengthens bad values. What is it with the violent crime rates in predominantly black hoods??? I asked a cop friend several years ago "why DO the cops seem to target black hoods so much more, you & i both know that theres just as many drugs in suburbia or on a college campus"...his response..."because most suburbanites & college kids arent blasting holes in each other over it".

Here in Springfield, if theres a robbery, shooting, beating etc., the perps pretty much always black, i'm not making anything up or exaggerating either, its just the way it is here. Why is that??? Doesnt the black community need to fix this wild ass behavior before pointing the finger at whitey???

I will not accept any "oh, thats a bigoted view" BS either, what i say, i've seen...not in some movie, but real life...over & over & over again. I am an Equal Opportunity Discriminator...i despise dumbasses of all colors.

Final Analysis = I have nothing to apologize for or change & racism is a TWO WAY STREET.

[Mr. Kotter]

My whole problem with discussing the race issue...is that ultimately the onus is placed on white people.

.......

Final Analysis = I have nothing to apologize for or change & racism is a TWO WAY STREET.
It's called playing the "victim card." It's become as popular as the "Uncle Tom" card played by blacks attempting to police those among their ranks who disagree with the black "establishment's" approach.

It is a two-way street; until we, as a nation have a conversation about it and, realize that....we are stuck.

Racism is real. But it isn't a real excuse anymore. No more than poverty, than an abusive home, or than an alcoholic parent. We all have crosses to bear. Unfortunately, racism still exists. Using it as a crutch creates more problems than it solves though. It's both counter-productive and self-perpetuating too. It's a lame excuse in the year 2007, IMO.

[ClevelandBronco]

...Racism is real. But it isn't a real excuse anymore...

Please forgive me for plucking these words from the context of your post, but they stood out as being especially important. I just wanted to emphasize them.

[|Zach|]

We all have crosses to bear. Unfortunately, racism still exists. Using it as a crutch creates more problems than it solves though. It's both counter-productive and self-perpetuating too. It's a lame excuse in the year 2007, IMO.
It seems like its always really cosmetic "much ado about nothing" things come to the forefront while the real problems hang out and have a smoke laughing at the dog and pony show.

[Rausch]

It seems like its always really cosmetic "much ado about nothing" things come to the forefront while the real problems hang out and have a smoke laughing at the dog and pony show.

My grandpa said "If you're lucky you have one good president every 40 years or so."

The fact that he's lived long enough to make a comment like that amazes me.

The fact that he's lived that long, followed politics, and not shot a politician amazes me more...

[htismaqe]

Congratulations to Jason Whitlock.

You've found your calling.

[stevieray]

Congratulations to Jason Whitlock.

You've found your calling.

no kidding...the fact that anytime something racial comes up, somehow, the whole country "defers" to AL and Jesse..and now Snoop Dogg(?)...this tells me everything I need to know about how much the left has been using AA's primarily for their vote, and how far we still have to go...

Kudos to Jwhit for telling it like it is.

[Mr. Kotter]

It seems like its always really cosmetic "much ado about nothing" things come to the forefront while the real problems hang out and have a smoke laughing at the dog and pony show.
Everyone has a different idea about what the "real" problems are: care to share with us what your idead of the real problems are?

(FTR, I'm being serious.)

[|Zach|]

Everyone has a different idea about what the "real" problems are: care to share with us what your idead of the real problems are?

(FTR, I'm being serious.)
I will put it this way. I still see a lot of problems. I work at a country clib right now. Some of the wealthiest people in the area...heads of companies...movers and shakers...lah de dah. The place is special because people feel they can relax and be open...well they do. The jokes....the stories...the way black people are framed in conversations? It is horrifying.

Hell, there is a member who is not far behind <a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Q._Hammons">JQH</a> money wise. His influence is quite large. When George Bush is in town...he makes a stop at this guys house (I am not trying to bash Bush here its just a fact) This particular member will not eat food served to him on a black plate. I just have trouble believing that this kind of thing doesn't trickle down into actions that are unjust based on the saturation into this mini culture.

I am not saying black people can't be racist. But most times when I see people refer to examples of it? It always seems really cosmetic and somewhat silly. The word cracker? It gives me a chuckle...thats just me though. A conversation about up and coming upper management candidates during a lunch with someone stressing that "we really need to keep our kind of people" language always being thrown around.

Makes you wonder.

Oh, just so you know. People that serve you food hear everything.

[scott free]

I will put it this way. I still see a lot of problems. I work at a country clib right now. Some of the wealthiest people in the area...heads of companies...movers and shakers...lah de dah. The place is special because people feel they can relax and be open...well they do. The jokes....the stories...the way black people are framed in conversations? It is horrifying.

Hell, there is a member who is not far behind <a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Q._Hammons">JQH</a> money wise. His influence is quite large. When George Bush is in town...he makes a stop at this guys house (I am not trying to bash Bush here its just a fact) This particular member will not eat food served to him on a black plate. I just have trouble believing that this kind of thing doesn't trickle down into actions that are unjust based on the saturation into this mini culture.

I am not saying black people can't be racist. But most times when I see people refer to examples of it? It always seems really cosmetic and somewhat silly. The word cracker? It gives me a chuckle...thats just me though. A conversation about up and coming upper management candidates during a lunch with someone stressing that "we really need to keep our kind of people" language always being thrown around.

Makes you wonder.

Oh, just so you know. People that serve you food hear everything.

I hear you Zach, there are still way too many white people with ancient, ridiculous & shameful views. But the fact is, is that theres always going to be a percentage of the population on both sides that will never come around, its up to the level-headed rest to make things better.

FTR, i will always own up to racism from the white world & it does still exist. One thing that never fails to bother me is that when a cute white girl is snatched off the street, it seems to be huge national news...but there are plenty of black kids who are stolen etc. & they never seem to make the same kind of headlines...that is disgraceful to me, all kids are precious.

So i do recognize white racism & have no place in my life for those people. I just wish more blacks would own up to their own faults & problems without 1st placing blame elsewhere.

[mlyonsd]

Serious question.....

Does anyone know if Sharpton has ever come down on anyone of his own race for spewing "black" culture lingo?

[Ultra Peanut]

JESSE JACKSON WE COMIN' FOR YOU *****

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[Mr. Kotter]

I will put it this way. I still see a lot of problems. I work at a country clib right now. Some of the wealthiest people in the area...heads of companies...movers and shakers...lah de dah. The place is special because people feel they can relax and be open...well they do. The jokes....the stories...the way black people are framed in conversations? It is horrifying.

Hell, there is a member who is not far behind JQH (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Q._Hammons) money wise. His influence is quite large. When George Bush is in town...he makes a stop at this guys house (I am not trying to bash Bush here its just a fact) This particular member will not eat food served to him on a black plate. I just have trouble believing that this kind of thing doesn't trickle down into actions that are unjust based on the saturation into this mini culture.

I am not saying black people can't be racist. But most times when I see people refer to examples of it? It always seems really cosmetic and somewhat silly. The word cracker? It gives me a chuckle...thats just me though. A conversation about up and coming upper management candidates during a lunch with someone stressing that "we really need to keep our kind of people" language always being thrown around.

Makes you wonder.

Oh, just so you know. People that serve you food hear everything.
I understand exactly what you are saying. And in no way, am I suggesting racism doesn't exist. It does. However, if you don't think we've made enormous leaps and bounds in the past 40 years....I think you are selling us short. We've come a LONG way, man.

I worked in the restaurant industry in managment for 2-3 years, while I was "between" careers and taking night classes. What you have described does happen. And it happens far too often. The difference is today, I just remember how far we have come I guess.

Racism still exists; my major point is that we've reached a point in society....as I have said, that you can't really use racism as an excuse anymore. I consider it on par with a whole host of other "issues" which can pose challenges for people: poverty, negligent parenting, abusive childhoods, alcoholism and drug addictions in families, and several other issues which "hold back" people--regardless of race or skin color. In other words, it's a challenge....but lots of people have challenges they overcome. I'm sorry, I just don't see this as any "worse" than some of the examples I just cited.

On top of that, we still have affirmative action programs in place, and laws which can be used to hold folks accountable in the egregious instances of racism, at least. That's something that, as a white man, in a female dominated profession....we don't have access to.

I understand why it's happened, but I can assure you....I've witnessed NUMEROUS examples of white men getting a raw deal....getting screwed, because of affirmative actions policies or the threat of a law suit. Is that REALLY any more fair than discrimination against legally protected classes of people? I say no.

[Logical]

I understand exactly what you are saying. And in no way, am I suggesting racism doesn't exist. It does. However, if you don't think we've made enormous leaps and bounds in the past 40 years....I think you are selling us short. We've come a LONG way, man.

I worked in the restaurant industry in managment for 2-3 years, while I was "between" careers and taking night classes. What you have described does happen. And it happens far too often. The difference is today, I just remember how far we have come I guess.

Racism still exists; my major point is that we've reached a point in society....as I have said, that you can't really use racism as an excuse anymore. I consider it on par with a whole host of other "issues" which can pose challenges for people: poverty, negligent parenting, abusive childhoods, alcoholism and drug addictions in families, and several other issues which "hold back" people--regardless of race or skin color. In other words, it's a challenge....but lots of people have challenges they overcome. I'm sorry, I just don't see this as any "worse" than some of the examples I just cited.

On top of that, we still have affirmative action programs in place, and laws which can be used to hold folks accountable in the egregious instances of racism, at least. That's something that, as a white man, in a female dominated profession....we don't have access to.

I understand why it's happened, but I can assure you....I've witnessed NUMEROUS examples of white men getting a raw deal....getting screwed, because of affirmative actions policies or the threat of a law suit. Is that REALLY any more fair than discrimination against legally protected classes of people? I say no.Prove that statement in bold please, or do you want to admit that is your unsubstantiated opinion?

[Mr. Kotter]

Prove that statement in bold please, or do you want to admit that is your unsubstantiated opinion?Of course it's an opinion; simple knowledge of the English language would tell you that. I never presented it otherwise. However, it's an opinion rooted in knowledge and experiences that few white folks can duplicate.

Can you not see my point though? That others have challenges (poverty, negligent parenting, abusive childhoods, alcoholism/drug abuse, etc) which...for THEM pose a challenge, in their world, is just as difficult and challenging as overcoming as racism?

I don't mean to be facetious here (I'm going to be anyway...), but what about fat people, ugly people, or dumb people--don't they face challenges too? Seriously; think about it. EVERYONE has some excuse they can use for a crutch. Racism and sexism are two of the most legitimate ones.

In the end though, is playing the victim card; and whining and sniveling about how "tough" it's been for you...any more productive than simply buckling down, working hard, and overcoming whatever challenges you face? I say, no. It's actually LESS productive, IMO. And it leads those folks down a road toward dependency---of expecting others, including the government to "right" the wrongs in life.

Surely such dependency on the government for "succeeding" in life is anathema to someone who claims to be a libertarian? :hmmm:

[Logical]

Of course it's an opinion; simple knowledge of the English language would tell you that. I never presented it otherwise. However, it's an opinion rooted in knowledge and experiences that few white folks can duplicate.

Can you not see my point though? That others have challenges (poverty, negligent parenting, abusive childhoods, alcoholism/drug abuse, etc) which...for THEM pose a challenge, in their world, is just as difficult and challenging as overcoming as racism?

I don't mean to be facetious here (I'm going to be anyway...), but what about fat people, ugly people, or dumb people--don't they face challenges too? Seriously; think about it. EVERYONE has some excuse they can use for a crutch. Racism and sexism are two of the most legitimate ones.

In the end though, is playing the victim card; and whining and sniveling about how "tough" it's been for you...any more productive than simply buckling down, working hard, and overcoming whatever challenges you face? I say, no. It's actually LESS productive, IMO. And it leads those folks down a road toward dependency---of expecting others, including the government to "right" the wrongs in life.

Surely such dependency on the government for "succeeding" in life is anathema to someone who claims to be a libertarian? :hmmm:Well given that most blacks face rampant poverty, drug abuse all around them, single parent homes, negligent parenting and racism I call bullshit on your informed opinion. Add to that even if they overcome all that and make it into the business world they face a prejudice that means they have to work harder than the same intellect level white guy to advance and I would say you don't know shit from shinola about what you speak. When a white man wants to play the victim card I want to slap their ass silly

[Mr. Kotter]

Well given that most blacks face rampant poverty, drug abuse all around them, single parent homes, negligent parenting and racism I call bullshit on your informed opinion. Add to that even if they overcome all that and make it into the business world they face a prejudice that means they have to work harder than the same intellect level white guy to advance and I would say you don't know shit from shinola about what you speak. When a white man wants to play the victim card I want to slap their ass sillyI'll join you in slapping that honkey silly. :thumb:

But what about black business owners who didn't start out in the ghetto? Who enjoyed all the advantages and perks of growing up in middle class suburban America....in the post Civil Rights era? With the advantages of civil rights laws, and affirmative action? You gonna slap them around too when they play the victim card? I already know the anwer...but it's worth putting you on the spot over.

Discrimination and oppression in this country today, is about rich and upper middle class folks....keeping "po folks" (of all colors and races) "in their place."

Whether it's Snoop Dog, or Eminem, they scare the crap outta rich crackas like you. Admit it, Jim. Your condescending and insincere martydom here on a football bulletin board does little to help their plight.

When was the last time you helped a newly arrived immigrant family learn to read? When was the last time you helped serve food at a homeless shelter? When was the last time you had lunch with a Native American kid, as a his "mentor?" Oh, I'm sure you've written a couple of checks to selected charities, but it ain't the same and you know it. I could be wrong; but I doubt it.

When was the last time you did ANY of those things? Seriously.

FWIW, I copied those straight out of my datebook....from the last two weeks alone. And, remember dude, I got four YOUNG kids of my own.

[Logical]

I'll join you in slapping that honkey silly. :thumb:

But what about black business owners who didn't start out in the ghetto? Who enjoyed all the advantages and perks of growing up in middle class suburban America....in the post Civil Rights era? With the advantages of civil rights laws, and affirmative action? You gonna slap them around too when they play the victim card? I already know the anwer...but it's worth putting you on the spot over.

Discrimination and oppression in this country today, is about rich and upper middle class folks....keeping "po folks" (of all colors and races) "in their place."

Whether it's Snoop Dog, or Eminem, they scare the crap outta rich crackas like you. Admit it, Jim. Your condescending and insincere martydom here on a football bulletin board does little to help their plight.

When was the last time you helped a newly arrived immigrant family learn to read? When was the last time you helped serve food at a homeless shelter? When was the last time you had lunch with a Native American kid, as a his "mentor?" Oh, I'm sure you've written a couple of checks to selected charities, but it ain't the same and you know it. I could be wrong; but I doubt it.

When was the last time you did ANY of those things? Seriously.

FWIW, I copied those straight out of my datebook....from the last two weeks alone. And, remember dude, I got four YOUNG kids of my own.I have never doubted your good work or intents, but I do doubt your understanding of the black experience. I doubt you know how much that black businessman had to grovel to get his small business loan. I doubt you know what it was like for him to deal with suppliers who used subtle discrimination to make his plight more difficult. I also doubt you know what it is like to work a full time job and do dialysis for 10 hours every single night. To feel drained all the time. To have too much phosphorous in your system and not enough of other key life sustaining minerals. You want to trade lives, well bless you.

[Nightwish]

True...........alot of these entertainers such as rappers use the hardcore gangster rap scene to break out of their poverty status.....at least they are making money and becoming rich trying to better their social status in life. Thats probably why they are not attacked more by the Jesse Jackson's and Sharptons of the world....
That, or Jesse and Al are scared to attack them, afraid they'll "bust a cap in dey a$s."

[Mr. Kotter]

I have never doubted your good work or intents, but I do doubt your understanding of the black experience. I doubt you know how much that black businessman had to grovel to get his small business loan. I doubt you know what it was like for him to deal with suppliers who used subtle discrimination to make his plight more difficult. I also doubt you know what it is like to work a full time job and do dialysis for 10 hours every single night. To feel drained all the time. To have too much phosphorous in your system and not enough of other key life sustaining minerals. You want to trade lives, well bless you.Believe me when I say, I know I've been blessed in life. I've been blessed with a wonderful family that loves me, despite my shortcomings. I honestly pray for you, in hopes you will get that transplant you need....more than you know.

I wish I could hook you up with my childhood friend, Yolanda, who is a now a district manager for a national restaurant chain. As a black woman from my childhood neighborhood...she's the last connection I have to childhood friends. She and I are the "only" ones who made it "out of da hood."

She's black; I'm white. She'd be telling you exactly what I'm telling you, but it would start out with something like...."Are you for REAL? You fallen for that Jesse Jackson-Al Sharpton shit? Damn, man....you need to be listening to Cosby and Walter Williams, bro." We've had the conversation during several reunions over the past 10 years.

In our conversations and continued correspondence, she still considers me her favorite "nig-ga" from "da hood." We laugh about it; but on the other hand, she understands what you don't....that skin color is just that; it's skin deep. On the other hand, if you take what God gives you, and work hard....there ain't no one, no where....that's gonna "keep you in your place." As much as they may want to, it ain't gonna happen.

But WTF does a dude "who don't know shit from shinola" who's playin' the "victim card".....know? Right?

[Logical]

Believe me when I say, I know I've been blessed in life. I've been blessed with a wonderful family that loves me, despite my shortcomings. I honestly pray for you, in hopes you will get that transplant you need....more than you know.

I wish I could hook you up with my childhood friend, Yolanda, who is a now a district manager for a national restaurant chain. As a black woman from my childhood neighborhood...she's the last connection I have to childhood friends. She and I are the "only" ones who made it "out of da hood."

She's black; I'm white. She'd be telling you exactly what I'm telling you, but it would start out with something like...."Are you for REAL? You fallen for that Jesse Jackson-Al Sharpton shit? Damn, man....you need to be listening to Cosby and Walter Williams, bro." We've had the conversation during several reunions over the past 10 years.

In our conversations and continued correspondence, she still considers me her favorite "nig-ga" from "da hood." We laugh about it; but on the other hand, she understands what you don't....that skin color is just that; it's skin deep. On the other hand, if you take what God gives you, and work hard....there ain't no one, no where....that's gonna "keep you in your place." As much as they may want to, it ain't gonna happen.

But WTF does a dude "who don't know shit from shinola" who's playin' the "victim card".....know? Right?I never accused you of playing the victim card, if anything I was feeling sorry for myself and playing the victim card. Hey I am man enough to admit it, thanks for your prayers by the way.

[go bowe]

victim cards, race cards, all the time with these damned cards...

can't we just sit back and make fun of other people?

too many cards, just too many cards...

[Halfcan]

Jesse needs to go sleep with one of his many hos and shut the fug up.

[ClevelandBronco]

Well given that most blacks face rampant poverty, drug abuse all around them, single parent homes, negligent parenting and racism I call bullshit on your informed opinion.

Try this instead:

Well, given that many people face rampant poverty, practice drug abuse, create single parent situations, and engage in negligent parenting, I call bullshit on your informed opinion.

Logical, it just isn't a race thing. It's so much bigger than that.

People invoke "race" in order to narrow the discussion and allow us to avoid the deeper systemic flaws in our culture, IMHO. Those flaws are exploited, advertised and marketed by weak individuals in this society in an effort to gain advantage against the weakest individuals.

Drug abuse, procreation outside marriage and absent parents are all choices people make. Such choices cause your so-called "rampant" poverty. As long as we embrace people who make those kind of choices, we'll be rewarded with more bad choices.

Many social influences these days allow people to claim pride in (or at least, compensation for) their weaknesses.

I won't endorse negligent behavior in this society that is so willing to reward conscientious effort.

Maybe I'm missing something.

[Ultra Peanut]

DIES IN FIRES COMRADE

[Believer]

Lost Seinfeld episode- Kramer is Racist
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6dXBC6R_rxk

[Nightwish]

Lost Seinfeld episode- Kramer is Racist
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6dXBC6R_rxk
LOL, that was a pretty good fit!

[Believer]

Al Sharpton trying to save the chickens!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JAz_bDL3mic

[Ultra Peanut]

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