Iraq Dissolution Continues: Al-Sadr orders 6 ministers to quit (and they do)

[Amnorix]

The politics of this country, and the power wielded by the clerics, are completely foreign to our concepts of governance.

Cleric Moktada Al-Sadr ordered six Ministers of the Iraqi coalition government to quit, and so of course they did. :spock:

The country appears to be steadily careening towards civil war, and I'd love to stop it, but don't see how that's going to be achieved absent forcible partition.

http://www.nytimes.com/2007/04/16/world/middleeast/16iraq.html?_r=1&hp&oref=slogin

[Ugly Duck]

The politics of this country, and the power wielded by the clerics, are completely foreign to our concepts of governance.

Cleric Moktada Al-Sadr ordered six Ministers of the Iraqi coalition government to quit, and so of course they did. :spock:

The country appears to be steadily careening towards civil war, and I'd love to stop it, but don't see how that's going to be achieved absent forcible partition.

http://www.nytimes.com/2007/04/16/world/middleeast/16iraq.html?_r=1&hp&oref=slogin

Maliki has the same problem Bush does. The American people want a roadmap out of Iraq, the neocons are contrary to the will of the people. The Iraqi people want a roadmap for us to get out, Maliki is contrary to the will of his people. Both leaders will continue to be further isolated as they cling to the madness.

[oldandslow]

Bad policy + bad execution = civil war.

Next time a president decides to partake in a "war of choice" rather than a war of necessity, I hope he or she remembers this.

[Amnorix]

Bad policy + bad execution = civil war.

Next time a president decides to partake in a "war of choice" rather than a war of necessity, I hope he or she remembers this.


I agree, but given the history of Iraq, I think even "good policy + good execution" would have equaled civil war, although perhaps not so soon.

I think it would've taken GREAT policy + GREAT execution to avoid it.

Frankly, although "Iraq" has existed on the map as a single, unified country for longer than any of us (except maybe Skip) has been alive, it's nothing more than a random set of lines on the map, consisting of disparate groups of people with no common ethnic, religious or social ties, who have been held together by nothing more than an iron fist for 80+ years.

There is, frankly, no knitting holding that society together, and by toppling Hussein, we were forced to try to come up with that stitching all by ourselves -- a monstrously difficult task.

[Amnorix]

Actually, given my firm belief in the accuracy of my last post, it makes the unbelievable failure to have a good post-war plan in effect all the more reprehensible and irresponsible.

Did they just think we'd be showered with flowers, form a friendly coalition government of Sunnis, Shiites and Kurds and have a happy-go-lucky ally in post-Hussein Iraq? Honestly, WTF did they think would happen?!?

*sigh*

[patteeu]

One of the problems we've had in Iraq is the fact that Maliki was slow to crack down on al-Sadr. I'd say that this could very well be an indication that Maliki has elected to side with us rather than Sadr. If so, I don't think this is necessarily a bad development at all. It will depend on whether Maliki can forge a governing political alliance with another faction (perhaps a Sunni faction) or not. Meanwhile, I'd imagine that there will be significantly less resistance from the Maliki government when our commanders find it advantageous to take on Sadr's forces.

[Amnorix]

One of the problems we've had in Iraq is the fact that Maliki was slow to crack down on al-Sadr. I'd say that this could very well be an indication that Maliki has elected to side with us rather than Sadr. If so, I don't think this is necessarily a bad development at all. It will depend on whether Maliki can forge a governing political alliance with another faction (perhaps a Sunni faction) or not. Meanwhile, I'd imagine that there will be significantly less resistance from the Maliki government when our commanders find it advantageous to take on Sadr's forces.


That could well be. To date, we've shown no inclination to take on Al-Sadr directly, ever since about 2003 or whenver it was that we had him mor eor less cornered but decided that, fo rpolitical reasons, we shouldn't seal the deal.

US intelligence puts him in Iran, currently, so he may be beyond our reach ATM. I also have no concept of how large his following is, but 6 ministers seems alot to me, so I suspect he was viewed as leading a very large portion of the country.

[tiptap]

This is all very good news that the surge is having an impact. We can expect more news over the next six months as the we enter the summer escalating activity season. Of course this will give more opportunities to have active combat because of course we have more troops who are more tired and less resolved to make fine differentiations as their tours increase and their preparation time goes down. This is the makings of a real bang up ending. The surge has washed up on the sands of Iraq and will like any wave find its level in receeding.

[Laz]

Don't worry ...... it's all part of Jesus Bush's plan.



don't forsake Jesus!!!

[BucEyedPea]

I agree, but given the history of Iraq, I think even "good policy + good execution" would have equaled civil war, although perhaps not so soon.

I think it would've taken GREAT policy + GREAT execution to avoid it.

Frankly, although "Iraq" has existed on the map as a single, unified country for longer than any of us (except maybe Skip) has been alive, it's nothing more than a random set of lines on the map, consisting of disparate groups of people with no common ethnic, religious or social ties, who have been held together by nothing more than an iron fist for 80+ years.

There is, frankly, no knitting holding that society together, and by toppling Hussein, we were forced to try to come up with that stitching all by ourselves -- a monstrously difficult task.
I agree with you about Iraq COMPLETELY. Messing with it was just plain stupid. The NC's who advised Bush think everyone thinks like us and wants what we would want. For a group considered to be intellectual they surely missed what this area was all about. Now the bombings are getting inside the Emerald City. And I read Friday, Turkey is going to invade Kurdish territory ( as part of their ancestral land from those previously drawn borders is in Turkey as well as Iran). Where will that put us on this? Against the Kurd's, our ally or against the Turks our ally?

There is really nothing more that can be done to fix it. Believing so is irrational and delusion. It's been lost.

[Iowanian]

I guess there is no reason to refrain from making Sadr a worm farm.

[CRONUS]

I guess there is no reason to refrain from making Sadr a worm farm.Quoted for truth, however that would just create even more confusion and unrest.

[CRONUS]

This is all very good news that the surge is having an impact. We can expect more news over the next six months as the we enter the summer escalating activity season. Of course this will give more opportunities to have active combat because of course we have more troops who are more tired and less resolved to make fine differentiations as their tours increase and their preparation time goes down. This is the makings of a real bang up ending. The surge has washed up on the sands of Iraq and will like any wave find its level in receeding.

Ouch, cannot wait to see how patteeu responds.

[Iowanian]

I don't know that it matters Logical. These people obviously don't seem real intent on making the most of the opportunity given by the sweat and blood of Americans.

Al Sadr was bad before, and they didn't kill him because he was keeping the peace. Now, he's outright telling his asshole ghetto followers to target and kill Americans, as well as the other attrocities they're committing.

[patteeu]

The surge has washed up on the sands of Iraq and will like any wave find its level in receeding.

LOL

[patteeu]

Ouch, cannot wait to see how patteeu responds.

I'm afraid I might have disappointed you, but I find tiptap's poetry laughable in it's apparent expression of certainty.

[mlyonsd]

This might just work out for the democrats.

If the civil war escalates to the point where enough Americans die so that they gather the republican votes necessary to override a veto their plan will have succeeded.

That and set themselves up for a great 2008. It's rather amazing to watch Reid and Pelosi totally hoodwink the same public that is so proud of themselves for pretending the Bush administration lied to them in the first place.

[tiptap]

The certainty is in the real deaths that are taking place.

I will venture into the castings of certainties though. Just like ones about the Iraqi putting up statues of Bush or that there will be a modern democracy or that WMD plants will be found.

The amount of deaths will escalate for all sides through the summer. (Past history shows that escalations start after holy days and increase over the Summer.)

The Iraq government will collapse as a representative republic over the escalating situation. It might have some martial law instituted but the democratic element will melt away in the sun.

We will have to choose sides in the sectarian strife.

[BucEyedPea]

This might just work out for the democrats.

That and set themselves up for a great 2008. It's rather amazing to watch Reid and Pelosi totally hoodwink the same public that is so proud of themselves for pretending the Bush administration lied to them in the first place.
I think Pelosi is getting an unfair rap. Afterall, she hasn't caved to the great majority of American public opinion, including her own constituents on just pulling out or outright cutting funds... and has even stripped out language that requires the admin to not strike Iran without consulting Congress first. I'd say she's walking a tightrope between what the president wants...oops! I mean what Cheney wants, and the American people. This would make her a moderate on these points. JMO.

[StcChief]

I guess there is no reason to refrain from making Sadr a worm farm.

and why are we tolerating this insurgent leader? He 's no better than AlQueda. Standing behind his religion.....

We need a concerned effort to take him out.