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milkman
03-23-2001, 10:47 PM
Why anyone was concerned about losing Williams to NC before this season remains a mystery to me. I haven't had an oportunity to see this year's edition until tonight, but this team resembles every other team that Willams has put on the hardwood in seasons past.
His idea of a physical presence is a center that lacks anything resembling athleticism. The rest of the team lacks physicality, athleticism, or quickness.
As long as he recruits these types of teams, he'll always fall short of the Final Four.
He's the Marty of college hoops.

DaWolf
03-23-2001, 11:12 PM
Well you have to give Illinois their props, they are a very tough team. KU had played well to get to this point, but realistically they should lose to these guys. Illinois is deeper and they are the No 1 seed for a reason. As I type this though, if KU could just hit some free throws, they'd be leading. Such is life...

1punkyQB
03-23-2001, 11:49 PM
I'm a Jayhawk fan, but it's hard not to be frustrated with Roy right now. He's taken less talented (on paper, anyway) groups to the Final Four, but when he has NBA-caliber players, it's disappointment after disappointment. Hopefully Miles and Simien will add two things obviously missing-a true point guard and muscle. Don't these guys have access to a weight room? The Illini players looked like they just got out of Joliet after a couple years of pumping iron. By comparison, WNBA centers could've shown more than Chenowith did.

ChiefsFanatic
03-24-2001, 12:13 AM
I think that Collison is kicking himself right now. If he had just made some free throws. I honestly think that KU could have won this game, but they did not execute very well. Boschee looked afraid to shoot when he had the chance. Hinrich started the game out of control, and Gregory took some three point shots that made you say "WTF?"

But, it was most definately the free throw shooting. Plain and simple.

As far as Illinois being a good team, they really suprised me. I think it was one of the best defensive performances I have seen. And, Punky, those players that Illinois has did not get that big in the weight room. They came that big. Those guys were not ripped, they were wide.

And, I might be a homer, but the officials made some of the worst calls I have seen in a while. That one play when Hinrich stole the ball and was on the break away and Williams slapped his arm, and no foul was called, RIDICULOUS.

But, I hope Illinois beats Arizona.

1punkyQB
03-24-2001, 12:28 AM
Point being that KU's players weren't nearly as strong and physical as IU's and could benefit from weight training(Chenowith in particular. Gotten bigger since he was a frosh, but still scrawny). Heck, Dennis Rodman practically molded himself into a rebounding bully.

Archie F. Swin
03-24-2001, 09:09 PM
This was the first time I saw Illinois play . . . man, their tough!

It seems they had 7 men on the court at any given time and they were all over the ball.

As for KU, not a good time to lack depth . . . Chenowith is absolutely worthless.

I never could figure out why 7'tall men (Chenowith & Ostertag) would stand 3 feet from the basket and still attempt a layup . . . WTF?! . . take that shi+ to the HOLE!

Illinois was smart in fouling Gregory . . . hell, I could maintain his FT%!

Boschee barely showed up

Officials ?. . . well lets just say Bob knight has killed men for less.

See ya next season Roy!

At least with the Royals every win is a suprise.

Pitt Gorilla
03-25-2001, 01:40 AM
Williams has always been a great recruiter and a terrible coach. I'm not a big KU fan, but I do rememer the UTEP game where the big O had six straight points and then sat the rest of the game. I just don't get him.
BTW, KU lost to 1 seed Illinois and MU lost to 1 seed Duke. I think the one seed that wins, if one of them does, the school that lost to THEM should get bragging rights, or something:)

RJ
03-25-2001, 02:57 AM
No great shame in losing to Illinois. They're a quick team with good shooters and they play great D. Their #1 seeding was most definitely deserved. Frank Williams is one of the best players I've watched this year. I'd like to see him go up against Duke's Jason Williams, but I hope it doesn't happen during this tournament.

Luzap
03-25-2001, 04:19 AM
Frank Williams was definitly in a class of his own. Combine that with the depth they had (we were sucking air), and we didn't stand a chance.

I'm not a bb expert, but I believe missing FTs and other easy shots is a result of exhaustion.

The KU team, however, is very young. With a little bit of depth, and another year of experience under their belts they could contend for a championship.

As to Roy's coaching in this game, what could he have done? The players were not executing their offense. Every time they did, they rallied.

Luz
al maguire thinks great things are ahead for this team...

milkman
03-25-2001, 07:39 AM
Pitt,
Who exactly has Williams recruited that qualifies him as a great recuiter?
With the exception of Paul Pierce, his players have lacked athleticism, quicks, or a physical presence. Essentially, the players he's drafted have been nothing more than a bunch of stiffs. Watch over the next couple seasons as Quinn Snyder and Mizzou overtake the Jayhawks as the premier team in the conference.

oleman47
03-25-2001, 08:15 AM
milkman

How can you say this is a "typical Williams team", while admitting you only have seen them play once?

Secondly, NBA has Pollard, Vaungh, LaFrentz, Ostertag, plus Pierce.

Thirdly, Williams is an outspoken opponent of goon basketball. The game should not be a contest of weight rooms. Even the NBA is trying to upgrade from this type of BB.

Fourth. KU has had troubles with turnovers all season and this catches up with you as the competition gets better, ie better defenses.

Fifth. Those KU players you distain this season will be back next year, so will get once again an annual peak at them before they go to the NBA.

Chiefs Pantalones
03-25-2001, 08:18 AM
I'm curious? Is Roy Williams Marty Schottenheimer's brother?

CG

:D

Chiefs Pantalones
03-25-2001, 08:23 AM
Are they related in anyway? I remember awhile back, a reporter was interviewing Roy, and I don't know how Marty was brought up, but the reporter asked him if he like Marty S.? He said, "Yes, Marty and I are really good friends, we talk quite a bit."

CG

thinks Roys taking lessons from the "losing when it counts the most" guru... :D

just kidding with everyone!

milkman
03-25-2001, 08:25 AM
If you were building an NBA team, would any of the guys you mentioned, other than Pierce, be on your wish list? They certainly wouldn't be on mine. Most of those guys are replacable parts.
You're right though. I might be a little off the mark with that "typical" comment. Vaughn was a better guard than either Hinrick(sp) or Bosche.
There are a lot of athletic players that are solid sudents and ctizens.

Chiefs Pantalones
03-25-2001, 08:34 AM
Vaughns waiting for John Stockton to retire so he can get some freakin playing time. His playing time has increased, though, since 97.

CG

Say No to Jazz, and say YES to Lakers!!!!

GO LAKERS AND CHIEFS!!!!!!


sorry Proctor! I know how you love your Jazz

Clint in Wichita
03-25-2001, 08:41 AM
There are 62 other coaches that will fail in this tournament as well.

milkman
03-25-2001, 08:47 AM
And most of those 62 other coaches don't get the hype that Williams does. Williams is the most overated coach in college hoops.

milkman
03-25-2001, 08:47 AM
And most of those 62 other coaches don't get the hype that Williams does. Williams is the most overated coach in college hoops.

redhed
03-25-2001, 05:05 PM
in that it is the typical KU mentality that killed 'em. Gooden was absolutely clueless when Illini doubled hard. Lack of depth hurt KU against this team, but it was the lack of nards that hurt more. And don't give me the "They played Thugball!!" excuse. Again, if KU hits some FTs and 'gimme looks', they might win.

KU gets rattled again (due to great D), and can't deal with it. I'm startin' to memorize this tune....

"....jerk my monkey off..."

& replace it w/ a 900lb gorilla

1punkyQB
03-25-2001, 05:56 PM
Watching the Arizona game, Illinois does play rather thuggishly. Lots of grabbing, pounding.

Mosbonian
03-25-2001, 06:19 PM
Illinois plays in the Big 10(+1) which has always had the reputation of playing contact Basketball. If Roy was caught off guard by the physical play of Illinois, then it was because he didn't watch any game film.

mmaddog
**********

1punkyQB
03-25-2001, 06:28 PM
What should he have done to prepare them for "contact" basketball? Recruit stronger kids and emphasize weight training, IMO, wouldn't be a bad idea, but even then I doubt you can out-thug a thuggish team. I don't think watching game film would've done much good either. It's not like seeing a guy who has trouble going to his left and pressuring him to do so, if they're gonna knock the crap out of you, there's not much you can do about it.

Mosbonian
03-25-2001, 06:56 PM
1p-q:

As an unbiased observer of the game, I guess I didn't observe it as a "slugfest" in the sense that most KU fans are painting it.

Try playing BB in the SEC for a while....I can tell you that KU wouldn't last long if they are moaning about the physicality of that game.

When you play in the NCAA tourney you MUST be prepared for the style of the team that you are playing.(Which was Norm's problem at MU, he never prepared his teams during the tourney)

To bemoan the loss is to belittle the success that KU should enjoy for having a good season.

mmaddog
************

Pitt Gorilla
03-25-2001, 09:51 PM
This was David vs. Goliath, in a literal sense. The KU players looked like skinny little girls compared to their counterparts. Please lay off the thug crap; the officials called a good clean game. BTW, I read a quote from Gooden on how being leaner was an advantage because they could out-quick their opponents. Well, the weight room paid off a lot better than the quicks. When Chenowith is the best there is to offer at center, one shouldn't expect to get to the final four.

1punkyQB
03-25-2001, 10:15 PM
IU did deserve to win, but the thug thing isn't "crap". They DID commit two intentional fouls Fri and had most of their frontline foul out on Fri and tonight. As Walton pointed out, they know they can foul a lot because of their depth. A very Laimbeer approach.

RJ
03-25-2001, 10:43 PM
I'm no expert on Big10 basketball, but it seems to me that the league has always played a very physical style. Love it or hate it, it falls within the rules. I heard today that Mich. St. outrebounds opponents by 15 per game. That is an insane stat and doesn't happen without being an extremely aggressive team. Same with Illinois.

1punkyQB
03-25-2001, 10:51 PM
Not saying it doesn't fall within the rules, just calling it what it is. You won't lose your job for throwing the occasional beanball either, but we all still know Clemens is a prick.

KCWolfman
03-25-2001, 10:56 PM
<b>Clint</b> - C'Mon. You know, 30 other teams fail in the NFL every year too - so do you ever cut Peterson slack??? It doesn't make sense to me that you do for Williams.

When you read that sign that says 100 billion served at McDonalds, about half have been to Roy for all his All Americans. With all that supposed talent, you would think he would have done something by now.

<b>Oleman</b> - Only Pierce is a legitimate NBA starter. Ostertag, Vaughn, and LaFrentz will be perennial backups for their entire careers - or at best, starters on very bad teams.

1punkyQB
03-25-2001, 11:03 PM
Raef's a pretty good player. I was sorry to see him get hurt so early in his career, but hopefully in a few years he'll have developed into an upper-echelon player. He's a starter, BTW, with 30+ mins a game.
http://espn.go.com/nba/profiles/profile/3246.html

KCWolfman
03-25-2001, 11:19 PM
Punky - As I stated, if they are starters, they will be starters on less than quality teams. The Nuggets have never been a serious basketball team.

1punkyQB
03-25-2001, 11:24 PM
Just because it's his misfortune to play on the Nuggets doesn't mean he's not a good player. Look at his #'s. Solid young player. If he bolts to the Lakers as a FA, will he suddenly become worthy of your respect? He's no Shaq, but he is a legit NBA starter.

KCWolfman
03-25-2001, 11:53 PM
Punky - If he went to the Lakers, he would not be a starter, just as I said.

It isn't Michael Jordan's fault he went to a poor team like the Bulls.
It isn't Alan Iverson's fault he went to a poor team like the 76ers.

LaFrentz plays ok, but he is not a legitimate starter on a contending team, nor will he be.

1punkyQB
03-26-2001, 12:05 AM
Horace Grant is the Lakers current starter at PF(http://games.espn.go.com/cgi/fba/request.dll?PLAYERCARD&nPlayerID=00131). I'd say LaFrentz is every bit as good as he is. He's a capable starter, as is reflected by his #'s. Ron Harper was an average player for the Clippers and an average player for the Bulls. Did playing on a championship team suddenly turn him into a good player? No, he was an average player surrounded by extraordinary talent. That doesn't change his individual skills one bit. If Raef had been lucky enough to start on those Bulls teams(pretty sure he could fill Luc Longley's shoes), would you then say he was a good player? There are good players on bad teams. Raef is one of them.

Pitt Gorilla
03-26-2001, 12:40 AM
Why didn't Raef shoot the 3 more for the Jayhawks? Is Roy retarded? Raef has great NBA 3 pt. range but can't hit the same college 3 that 14 year old, 100 lb. girls hit with ease? Once again, this reflects upon Roy's weird system that seemingly punishes talent. Paul is a much better player now than he was in college. Scot Pollard suddenly has skills. What's the deal?

1punkyQB
03-26-2001, 12:47 AM
That was all the talk about Raef when he was recruited. A guy that size who can hit the 3-pointer. Then he comes here and doesn't take it. Except for that last, desperate shot in the Arizona game, of course. Bad memories.

Gary
03-26-2001, 03:59 PM
REGARDING THIS NBA-CALIBER TALENT ISSUE, JUST TAKE A LOOK AT THE 1988 SEASON WHEN DANNY MANNING LED THEM ALL THE WAY TO THE CHAMPION-SHIP. NOW, WHAT EXACTLY HAS HE DONE IN THE NBA? COULD IT HAVE BEEN THAT COACH BROWN HAD A PRETTY GOOD SYSTEM IN PLACE THAT ALLOWED LITTLE BETTER THAN AVERAGE PLAYERS & ONE PRETTY GOOD PLAYER TO FLOURISH?????