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luv
04-29-2007, 11:15 PM
The more I learn about it, the more I love it. I never knew how complex it was. This is the first year that I've gotten into the draft, and it's made it that much more exciting. I so can't wait for the season to start!

Oh, and thanks to those I have driven crazy with questions. You know who you are. I appreciate it.

XXXshogunXXX
04-29-2007, 11:22 PM
you have over 19000 posts and been here for 3 years......but this is the first time you've gotten into the draft? what the

stlchiefs
04-29-2007, 11:24 PM
you have over 19000 posts and been here for 3 years......but this is the first time you've gotten into the draft? what the

quit stalking the women folk

Count Zarth
04-29-2007, 11:26 PM
The more I learn about it, the more I love it. I never knew how complex it was.

Awesome. This is very cool. Hopefully by this time next year we have you spouting off about the nuances of the Cover 2 defense. :p

XXXshogunXXX
04-29-2007, 11:26 PM
ok jeb

luv
04-29-2007, 11:30 PM
Awesome. This is very cool. Hopefully by this time next year we have you spouting off about the nuances of the Cover 2 defense. :p
I know that a blitz is when more than just the d-line goes for the quarterback.

Cover 2 requires a fast MLB. Still not sure about the specifics of it though.

KcMizzou
04-29-2007, 11:30 PM
Awesome. This is very cool. Hopefully by this time next year we have you spouting off about the nuances of the Cover 2 defense. :pYep, good to hear, Luv. I've been a football junkie since 1989, and I learn new things all the time. It really is a great game.

stlchiefs
04-29-2007, 11:32 PM
I know that a blitz is when more than just the d-line goes for the quarterback.

Cover 2 requires a fast MLB. Still not sure about the specifics of it though.

Blitz is where your grandpa has too many jack and cokes and passes out on the couch.

Count Zarth
04-29-2007, 11:32 PM
I know that a blitz is when more than just the d-line goes for the quarterback.

Cover 2 requires a fast MLB. Still not sure about the specifics of it though.

How long have you been watching football?

Bowser
04-29-2007, 11:35 PM
Blitz is where your grandpa has too many jack and cokes and passes out on the couch.

That would be "blitzed".

luv
04-29-2007, 11:36 PM
How long have you been watching football?
In general, about 3 years. I hear people talk about different offensive and defensive plays, but never knew what they were talking about. Finally got people who would be patient enough with me to go over basics like that. This year, I decided to focus on learning more about the draft. It's made it that much more exciting. I want to see who pans out, and how we're going to develop our team.

Count Zarth
04-29-2007, 11:41 PM
In general, about 3 years.

I had no idea about the Cover 2 and didn't know what a blitz was after three years of watching football.

Bowser
04-29-2007, 11:42 PM
In general, about 3 years. I hear people talk about different offensive and defensive plays, but never knew what they were talking about. Finally got people who would be patient enough with me to go over basics like that. This year, I decided to focus on learning more about the draft. It's made it that much more exciting. I want to see who pans out, and how we're going to develop our team.

My wife used to go to the games with me just to watch the players run around in spandex. Then she decided to go out and buy Holly Robinson's book Get Your Own Damn Beer, I'm Watching the Game!. The next thing I know, she's talking to me about offensive sets and zone blitzes. I was highly impressed.

If you are looking to expand your football knowledge, you should give that book a try. According to her, it does a good job expaining the game of football in layman's terms.

luv
04-29-2007, 11:43 PM
I had no idea about the Cover 2 and didn't know what a blitz was after three years of watching football.
Oh please.

And I still don't know about a Cover 2. Only that it requires a fast MLB.

luv
04-29-2007, 11:44 PM
My wife used to go to the games with me just to watch the players run around in spandex. Then she decided to go out and buy Holly Robinson's book Get Your Own Damn Beer, I'm Watching the Game!. The next thing I know, she's talking to me about offensive sets and zone blitzes. I was highly impressed.

If you are looking to expand your football knowledge, you should give that book a try. According to her, it does a good job expaining the game of football in layman's terms.
I just bought that book a week ago! I haven't gotten too far into it yet, but my schedule is getting back to normal. I'll have it read by next weekend.

Demonpenz
04-29-2007, 11:44 PM
i I love football and football weather. That first autumn day where it is crisp. marching band drums playing in the background. 19 of your coldest buddies sitting right next to you in a inflateable kittie pool that is now turned into the largest gathering of miller light this side of your own apartment. Cheerleader upskirt shots, fat guy endzone dances, and victory formations

stlchiefs
04-29-2007, 11:44 PM
I had no idea about the Cover 2 and didn't know what a blitz was after three years of watching football.

me neither, but I was 9 years old at the time :)

luv
04-29-2007, 11:47 PM
i I love football and football weather. That first autumn day where it is crisp. marching band drums playing in the background. 19 of your coldest buddies sitting right next to you in a inflateable kittie pool that is now turned into the largest gathering of miller light this side of your own apartment. Cheerleader upskirt shots, fat guy endzone dances, and victory formations
I was in color guard. We had to be at every home varsity game. I never paid much attention to the game, but I learned that true football weather requires at least two layers of clothes.

Mecca
04-29-2007, 11:47 PM
Cover 2 basically refers to the coverage scheme......there are different ways to play it this is "Tampa 2"

Count Zarth
04-29-2007, 11:49 PM
Oh please.

And I still don't know about a Cover 2. Only that it requires a fast MLB.

Hell I barely knew about middle linebackers at the time....

luv
04-29-2007, 11:51 PM
Hell I barely knew about middle linebackers at the time....
Alright, I give. How old were you at the time?

Demonpenz
04-29-2007, 11:52 PM
i love cover 2 exept it really pussifies your MLB. I want my Middle Linebacker attacking, villifying, raping, pillaging, desparaging, shockifying, satisfying

Count Zarth
04-29-2007, 11:55 PM
Alright, I give. How old were you at the time?

15

Mecca
04-29-2007, 11:58 PM
i love cover 2 exept it really pussifies your MLB. I want my Middle Linebacker attacking, villifying, raping, pillaging, desparaging, shockifying, satisfying

Well if you don't play it that way......there's this giant hole in the middle of your secondary when your safeties run back to get the WR's.

Count Zarth
04-30-2007, 12:01 AM
The next thing I know, she's talking to me about offensive sets and zone blitzes. I was highly impressed.


That's hot.

Demonpenz
04-30-2007, 12:01 AM
Well if you don't play it that way......there's this giant hole in the middle of your secondary when your safeties run back to get the WR's.

I know I was just point out what I don't like the cover 2. I am from the old school physical football. Nitchke, butkis, Lambert, Maslawski, It drives me insane to watch teams dink and dunk you all the time. In my day we not only take candy from the baby we put hand the ball off to john riggins and he marches it into the endzone.

Count Zarth
04-30-2007, 12:04 AM
I know I was just point out what I don't like the cover 2. I am from the old school physical football. Nitchke, butkis, Lambert, Maslawski, It drives me insane to watch teams dink and dunk you all the time. In my day we not only take candy from the baby we put hand the ball off to john riggins and he marches it into the endzone.

I prefer that style of defense too, but sometimes it's hard to play when you don't have the talent. i.e. 2004 Chiefs.

Mecca
04-30-2007, 12:04 AM
Personally I think the cover 2 is an alright defensive scheme it's not my favorite by any means.

It's great against dink/dunk west coast offense type teams. But against vertical teams with alot of weapons it can be exploited unless you have phenomal athletes all over the place.

Demonpenz
04-30-2007, 12:06 AM
The way the nfl is... so evenly matched cover 2 and keeping the game infront of you will keep you in most games. Unles its chiefs steelers

luv
04-30-2007, 12:07 AM
Okay, so in a Cover 2, there's pressure on the CB's to make sure that the WR's don't make it past them for a deep pass. Otherwise, your safeties have a lot of area to cover. I can see how it makes the MLB responsible for stopping any running game or shallow pass.

Does that sound right?

Mecca
04-30-2007, 12:08 AM
Okay, so in a Cover 2, there's pressure on the CB's to make sure that the WR's don't make it past them for a deep pass. Otherwise, your safeties have a lot of area to cover. I can see how it makes the MLB responsible for stopping any running game or shallow pass.

Does that sound right?

Cover 2 devalues corners because really all they do is play from the line to 10-15 yards back they play their zone. They have to be able to tackle well and play the flats and screens and stuff like that....

Really the pressure is on the safeties because if the WR is running deep it's their job to pick up the WR deep and cover him 1-1.

Demonpenz
04-30-2007, 12:10 AM
we should go to the flex 4 as our base defense

Demonpenz
04-30-2007, 12:12 AM
cover 2 puts alot less pressure on the qb because there ususally aren't many reads. Out of most D's cover 2 probably blitz the least and aren't really disguesed.

Direckshun
04-30-2007, 12:13 AM
Okay, so in a Cover 2, there's pressure on the CB's to make sure that the WR's don't make it past them for a deep pass. Otherwise, your safeties have a lot of area to cover. I can see how it makes the MLB responsible for stopping any running game or shallow pass.

Does that sound right?
You got it.

The idea is to keep absolutely everything in front of you. No big plays.

It's a defense ideal for shutting down big-time QBs. Manning fell pretty badly to it in the playoffs, it neutered Bulger, and bankrupted Alex Smith and Matt Leinart of ideas.

If the QB is hungry for that big play, he'll throw right into the teeth of your defense downfield. Your CBs are to cover a smaller zone in the flats out on the sides, usually not very far down the field, and the safeties are each covering half of the field. The LBs are shutting down medium-range pass routes. Manning got 3 INTs because he couldn't keep his hand out of the cookie jar and kept going for those deep tosses.

If the QB adjusts properly, like Marc Bulger did, he'll settle for the "check down" receiver, which is the guy you keep near him in case he doesn't have anybody else to throw to. It's usually the RB or FB out of the backfield, no further than 5 yards down the road. And that's where it helps to (a.) have tenacious DEs (Hali and Allen) who'll try to chase those guys down, and (b.) super quick LBs (DJ, Harris, Edwards) to stop the guy before any major gain is had.

It's renouned as a "bend but don't break" defense.

Count Zarth
04-30-2007, 12:13 AM
I can see how it makes the MLB responsible for stopping any running game or shallow pass.

Does that sound right?

Sort of. The MLB is responsible for the deep middle of the field. He has to be fast and quick enough to get down the field at the snap.

Here is a diagram. It places less emphasis on elite cornerback talent because they don't have to match up one-on-one with stud WRs.

http://img442.imageshack.us/img442/443/cover2ps3.jpg (http://imageshack.us)

Demonpenz
04-30-2007, 12:15 AM
i like the 3-4 the best because it invovles putting the largest man possible right up front to set the tempo. I just can imagine when it was designed some guy was like "Well yeah? I got this fat guy and i am going to put him here! WHat are you going to do about that!"

luv
04-30-2007, 12:15 AM
This is what we normally use, right?

http://z.about.com/d/football/1/8/h/1/fig11.jpg

Mecca
04-30-2007, 12:16 AM
And that illustrates why if you have a bad line this defense sucks......if you have to blitz guys a reciever will basically run into a wide open hole on the field.

Count Zarth
04-30-2007, 12:17 AM
This is what we normally use, right?

http://z.about.com/d/football/1/8/h/1/fig11.jpg

That's just showing a standard 4-3 defensive aligment. 4 linemen, three linebackers and 4 defensive backs. It's not illustrating their assignments.

But yes, we use a 4-3. The 3-4 is for mad scientists with ridiculous talent everywhere.

Demonpenz
04-30-2007, 12:18 AM
God i love mad scientests

Demonpenz
04-30-2007, 12:18 AM
because we always run zone we ususally don't shift much when the other team goes in motion. We might swing the will up alittle bit thats about it

luv
04-30-2007, 12:19 AM
Okay, so, if Herm likes the Cover 2, we need two strong safeties and two good CB's. Do we have that? HE seemed to take care of the line pretty well with the draft. And who is our MLB now that Mitchell is gone?

Mecca
04-30-2007, 12:21 AM
Our corners are overpaid for the scheme really.........

Count Zarth
04-30-2007, 12:21 AM
Okay, so, if Herm likes the Cover 2, we need two strong safeties and two good CB's. Do we have that? HE seemed to take care of the line pretty well with the draft. And who is our MLB now that Mitchell is gone?

You don't need two good CBs...you just need two decent ones that can tackle and are relatively smart.

But yes, good to great safeties are a must, they have to cover lots of ground. Hopefully we have those with Pollard and Page (both rookies last year).

Our MLB is Napoleon Harris, who is much more suited for the C2 than Kawika was. He's taller, faster and quicker. We signed him in free agency. He was actually drafted by the Raiders and was part of the Randy Moss trade.

Demonpenz
04-30-2007, 12:22 AM
Okay, so, if Herm likes the Cover 2, we need two strong safeties and two good CB's. Do we have that? HE seemed to take care of the line pretty well with the draft. And who is our MLB now that Mitchell is gone?

nate harris.. I will get my scoutting book out to see what notes I have on him... Ok here it is "really fast big black guy" There you go!

Mecca
04-30-2007, 12:22 AM
He's also more injury prone...........he's basically stop gap.....we also need more/better lineman.

'Hamas' Jenkins
04-30-2007, 12:23 AM
Safety, D-Tackle and MLB are the most important positions in a Cover 2

Direckshun
04-30-2007, 12:24 AM
Okay, so, if Herm likes the Cover 2, we need two strong safeties and two good CB's. Do we have that? HE seemed to take care of the line pretty well with the draft. And who is our MLB now that Mitchell is gone?
We got a faster dude who's tailor-made for the cover 2, Napolean Harris. His rookie year, he was the MLB for the Raiders' Super Bowl squad, and for the past couple years played for the #1 run defense in the league, the Vikings.

Our safeties are young and have great potential. Jarred Page and Bernard Pollard both showed nothing but talent last year and they earned the starting spot this year over incumbent veterans.

Our CBs are old, but they are decorated guys. Ty Law has three Super Bowl rings with the Patriots, numerous Pro Bowls, and personal tormentor of Peyton Manning. Complimenting him is Patrick Surtain, who's a former Pro Bowler as well, and sometimes still plays like a shut down corner.

Our defense is in real good condition for 2007.

luv
04-30-2007, 12:25 AM
You don't need two good CBs...you just need two decent ones that can tackle and are relatively smart.

But yes, good to great safeties are a must, they have to cover lots of ground. Hopefully we have those with Pollard and Page (both rookies last year).

Our MLB is Napoleon Harris, who is much more suited for the C2 than Kawika was. He's taller, faster and quicker. We signed him in free agency. He was actually drafted by the Raiders and was part of the Randy Moss trade.
I had forgotten about acquiring Harris. Who are our CB's?

luv
04-30-2007, 12:25 AM
We got a faster dude who's tailor-made for the cover 2, Napolean Harris. His rookie year, he was the MLB for the Raiders' Super Bowl squad, and for the past couple years played for the #1 run defense in the league, the Vikings.

Our safeties are young and have great potential. Jarred Page and Bernard Pollard both showed nothing but talent last year and they earned the starting spot this year over incumbent veterans.

Our CBs are old, but they are decorated guys. Ty Law has three Super Bowl rings with the Patriots, numerous Pro Bowls, and personal tormentor of Peyton Manning. Complimenting him is Patrick Surtain, who's a former Pro Bowler as well, and sometimes still plays like a shut down corner.

Our defense is in real good condition for 2007.
Answered my next question before I asked it!

el borracho
04-30-2007, 12:26 AM
Yeah, it's ok. ;)

Mecca
04-30-2007, 12:26 AM
Safety, D-Tackle and MLB are the most important positions in a Cover 2

Well Derrick Brooks has done a nice job in the D not being a MLB.

Count Zarth
04-30-2007, 12:26 AM
I had forgotten about acquiring Harris. Who are our CB's?

Ty Law and Patrick Surtain.

They are old and we need new ones, but they are pretty well suited for the scheme. Good tacklers.

luv
04-30-2007, 12:31 AM
Offense....

I know that a Flea Flicker is when the QB passes the ball to the RB in order to throw the defense off. The RB then returns it to the QB, who goes for a deep pass.

Direckshun
04-30-2007, 12:33 AM
Offense....

I know that a Flea Flicker is when the QB passes the ball to the RB in order to throw the defense off. The RB then returns it to the QB, who goes for a deep pass.
Yup.

ChiefsPlanet criticized the Chiefs quite a bit last year for not pulling that particular prank enough.

Count Zarth
04-30-2007, 12:35 AM
Here is one of the easiest things to learn about offensive football - the passing tree. It explains all the different routes receivers can run. Once you understand that alot of stuff becomes clear:

http://img413.imageshack.us/img413/7296/passingtreeuk2.gif (http://imageshack.us)

luv
04-30-2007, 12:35 AM
Yup.

ChiefsPlanet criticized the Chiefs quite a bit last year for not pulling that particular prank enough.
It was so cool to see in person! Awesome. It would also require a good O-line, no?

luv
04-30-2007, 12:37 AM
Here is one of the easiest things to learn about offensive football - the passing tree. It explains all the different routes receivers can run. Once you understand that alot of stuff becomes clear:

http://img413.imageshack.us/img413/7296/passingtreeuk2.gif (http://imageshack.us)
Oh goodness.

Direckshun
04-30-2007, 12:39 AM
It was so cool to see in person! Awesome. It would also require a good O-line, no?
Honestly, this is going to sound like a BS answer, but it's sincere:

Every single offensive play you could draw up depends on a good OL.

More than any other position in the NFL, the quality of OLs determine how good a team is.

I don't need to explain that this doesn't bode well for the Chiefs.

Count Zarth
04-30-2007, 12:42 AM
It's just showing you the different routes receivers can run, branching out from a formation with four different wide receivers.

The slant obviously slants into the middle fo the field. The fade goes down the field and "fades" toward the sideline. The "curl" has the receiver running downfield, stopping and curling back.

Count Zarth
04-30-2007, 12:43 AM
It was so cool to see in person! Awesome. It would also require a good O-line, no?

Watching plays develop when you know WTF is going on is fun. There's nothing like seeing a guard pull around the corner and look for a linebacker to crush. :)

luv
04-30-2007, 12:43 AM
It's just showing you the different routes receivers can run, branching out from a formation with four different wide receivers.

The slant obviously slants into the middle fo the field. The fade goes down the field and "fades" toward the sideline. The "curl" has the receiver running downfield, stopping and curling back.
Between the Oline, backs, and WR's, how on earth do people keep track of everything everyone is doing on a play?

Direckshun
04-30-2007, 12:46 AM
Between the Oline, backs, and WR's, how on earth do people keep track of everything everyone is doing on a play?
It takes a keen eye and watching about a million games.

I'm nowhere near that level of perception, but if you've ever seen Dick Vermeil commentate a game, there's a perfect example.

Count Zarth
04-30-2007, 12:46 AM
Between the Oline, backs, and WR's, how on earth do people keep track of everything everyone is doing on a play?

You mean fans? They don't. Just watch the offensive linemen. They take you to where the play is going 90 percent of the time. Or watch the ball, whatever. On passing plays I usually glance at the offensive line first to see if anyone is getting beat, then I look at the quarterback.

luv
04-30-2007, 12:52 AM
I could go on with questions like this all night. I'm definitely looking forward to making that book my bedtime reading. I just can't wait. I want to be able to go to games, really watch them, and be able to know what's going on without asking whoever's with me what happened. Goal for the Summer.

Ari Chi3fs
04-30-2007, 12:56 AM
I love Hot Naked Cheerleaders. Not KC Chiefs Cheerleaders... but most every other hot naked Cheerleaders are great.

keg in kc
04-30-2007, 12:56 AM
If you have the ability to do it (DVR or TiVO), you can often see and understand a lot more about a play and why it did or didn't work by rewinding and watching a play a couple of times. Also good for watching defensive plays, because often 2 or 3 things will happen that lead to a sack, strip or interception that are never mentioned by the TV crew.

Ari Chi3fs
04-30-2007, 01:02 AM
http://crackersunited.com/blog/wp-content/cheerleader.jpg

luv
04-30-2007, 01:04 AM
http://crackersunited.com/blog/wp-content/cheerleader.jpg
They all close their eyes when doing back flips. That's a cool looking picture, although I probably think so for different reasons than you guys.

luv
04-30-2007, 01:09 AM
Active day and a long evening. I'm beat.

Thanks for talkin' football with me where I can understand it. I appreciate it!

Sweet dreams all!

|Zach|
04-30-2007, 01:20 AM
Active day and a long evening. I'm beat.

Thanks for talkin' football with me where I can understand it. I appreciate it!

Sweet dreams all!
Heyhey dont go to sleep I have a question.

Are there any 24 hour laundry places in this town?

blueballs
04-30-2007, 05:19 AM
we might like going shopping
if we could touch ourselves
while watching

luv
04-30-2007, 11:40 PM
Alrighty. What aspect shall I learn about tonight?

luv
05-01-2007, 12:11 AM
No Football 101 instructors in the house tonight?

Count Zarth
05-01-2007, 12:12 AM
I am here. What would you like to know.

luv
05-01-2007, 12:15 AM
I am here. What would you like to know.
Everything. :)

I guess I could just go and look stuff up as it comes to mind. I'm perfectly capable of doing that. I just figured I'd give you guys a chance to show off your knowledge. Makes for good conversation, too.

Count Zarth
05-01-2007, 12:16 AM
Do you know the difference between zone and man defense?

luv
05-01-2007, 12:23 AM
Do you know the difference between zone and man defense?
No. Nor do I know about screens.

ChiefJustice
05-01-2007, 12:24 AM
Do you know the difference between zone and man defense?

Do we need to pay a premium to learn that?Or are you going to enlighten us for free?

Count Zarth
05-01-2007, 12:31 AM
No. Nor do I know about screens.

Zone defense is essentially what the Chiefs run when they bust out the Cover 2. The linebackers, safeties and cornerbacks are each responsible for "zones" on the field - certain areas. If any offensive player enters that area, it is their responsibility to cover them.

Before a pass is thrown, the linebackers playing in zone defense will often hit any receiver entering their zones, to disrupt their route and throw off timing. This is legal as it is within the allowed area - five yards and less from the line of scrimmage (where the ball is snapped). The new illegal contact rules make it illegal for defenders down the field to touch receivers.

Man defense, as you might guess, is when each each defender is responsible for another offensive player. A linebacker will run with a tight end, a cornerback with a wide receiver, and so on. You will also see combinations of the two - quite frequently, in fact. In man defense the safeties will often support corners by playing deep zones, to take away long gains - hopefully.

Screen passes are pretty simple. The offensive line allows defensive linemen to penetrate into the offensive backfield. As they release their blocks, they slip out into the flat and block for a running back, who takes a short pass from the quarterback, who is often fading backwards (as if retreating from the pass rush). If it works correctly, it works for a long gain, as the linemen can block defenders downfield and clear space for the running back.

In essence, the screen pass creates a "screen" for the running back to run behind. It's kind of an extended handoff.

luv
05-01-2007, 12:41 AM
Zone defense is essentially what the Chiefs run when they bust out the Cover 2. The linebackers, safeties and cornerbacks are each responsible for "zones" on the field - certain areas. If any offensive player enters that area, it is their responsibility to cover them.

Before a pass is thrown, the linebackers playing in zone defense will often hit any receiver entering their zones, to disrupt their route and throw off timing. This is legal as it is within the allowed area - five yards and less from the line of scrimmage (where the ball is snapped). The new illegal contact rules make it illegal for defenders down the field to touch receivers.

Man defense, as you might guess, is when each each defender is responsible for another offensive player. A linebacker will run with a tight end, a cornerback with a wide receiver, and so on. You will also see combinations of the two - quite frequently, in fact. In man defense the safeties will often support corners by playing deep zones, to take away long gains - hopefully.

Screen passes are pretty simple. The offensive line allows defensive linemen to penetrate into the offensive backfield. As they release their blocks, they slip out into the flat and block for a running back, who takes a short pass from the quarterback, who is often fading backwards (as if retreating from the pass rush). If it works correctly, it works for a long gain, as the linemen can block defenders downfield and clear space for the running back.

In essence, the screen pass creates a "screen" for the running back to run behind. It's kind of an extended handoff.
Zone = Defending area of the field.
Man = Defending a specific person.
Linebackers can hit WR's to throw them out of line as long as it's witihin 5 yards of the LOS. Otherwise, it's a penalty.
Screens are used to protect the RB in order to try to get a long run.

Count Zarth
05-01-2007, 12:42 AM
Here is a slowed-down video of a screen pass.

Note Wiegmann and Waters in the first frame as they release their blocks, before slipping out into the flat to clear space for Priest. 50-yard gain, all because the defensive linemen got too agressive in their pass rush.

http://uranus.ckt.net/~gochiefs/screenpass.gif

Mr. Flopnuts
05-01-2007, 12:43 AM
Here is a slowed-down video of a screen pass.

Note Wiegmann and Waters in the first frame as they release their blocks, before slipping out into the flat to clear space for Priest. 50-yard gain, all because the defensive linemen got too agressive in their pass rush.

http://uranus.ckt.net/~gochiefs/screenpass.gif


Nice video.

Count Zarth
05-01-2007, 12:45 AM
Zone = Defending area of the field.
Man = Defending a specific person.
Linebackers can hit WR's to throw them out of line as long as it's witihin 5 yards of the LOS. Otherwise, it's a penalty.
Screens are used to protect the RB in order to try to get a long run.

You got it. It goes down on the stat sheet as a pass, however.

Also, the way the refs call illegal contact is incredibly inconsistent. I guarantee you Tony Gonzalez gets ridden like a mule farther than five yards down the field.

luv
05-01-2007, 12:49 AM
You got it. It goes down on the stat sheet as a pass, however.

Also, the way the refs call illegal contact is incredibly inconsistent. I guarantee you Tony Gonzalez gets ridden like a mule farther than five yards down the field.
Ah! I know something else I can learn! Penalties.

Any defensive penalty is 10 yards? Well, I was thinking off sides was 5 yards.

Count Zarth
05-01-2007, 12:53 AM
Ah! I know something else I can learn! Penalties.

Any defensive penalty is 10 yards? Well, I was thinking off sides was 5 yards.

No. Defensive penalties cover 5, 10 and 15 yards and more, if it's pass interference.

Off the top of my head:

Offsides - 5 yards

Encroachment - 5 yards (this is like offsides, but occurs when a defensive player touches another offensive player before the snap. If you go across the line but don't touch anyone, you can try to get back on your own side of the line of scrimmage before they snap and there's no penalty)

Facemask - 5 yards if you just graze the facemask, or 15 yards if you grab the facemask and pull.

Illegal contact - 5 yards, automatic first down

Late hit on the quarterback - 15 yards, automatic first down

Defensive holding - 10 yards

Pass interference - spot foul. If a defender interferes with an offensive player attempting to catch a pass, the offense gets possession of the ball where the interference occured. Even if it's 50 yards down field. In college, the penalty maxes out at 15 yards. They need to change it in the NFL.

Count Zarth
05-01-2007, 12:59 AM
I can't recall the name for it, but if you're a defender and you run out of bounds during a play, you can't be the first guy to touch a ball when you come back in bounds. As soon as you touch it, it's a dead ball, and possession is awarded to the team that last had it. This prevents a defender from running out of bounds to avoid a player and then recovering a fumble.

Count Zarth
05-01-2007, 01:04 AM
Oh, here's another one:

Hands-to-the-face - 10 yards, I think.

Defensive players can't club a guy in the face with their hands. This is most frequently broke by defensive linemen.

Spearing - 10 yards? You can't lead with your helmet when tackling someone. Risk of injury to both parties.

luv
05-01-2007, 01:07 AM
Off sides and false start are basically the same thing. Offsides is when the defense crosses the LOS before the ball is snapped, and a false start is when the offense does so.

Count Zarth
05-01-2007, 01:08 AM
Off sides and false start are basically the same thing. Offsides is when the defense crosses the LOS before the ball is snapped, and a false start is when the offense does so.

Not exactly. The defense can move around as much as they want before the snap.

Offensive players, once they are set in their stance, are not allowed to move before the snap - unless a receiver, back or tight end goes in motion.

luv
05-01-2007, 01:10 AM
Not exactly. The defense can move around as much as they want before the snap.

Offensive players, once they are set in their stance, are not allowed to move before the snap - unless a receiver, back or tight end goes in motion.
They can move, but they can't cross the line.

Guru
05-01-2007, 01:20 AM
Not exactly. The defense can move around as much as they want before the snap.

Offensive players, once they are set in their stance, are not allowed to move before the snap - unless a receiver, back or tight end goes in motion.
Then there is the Neil Smith rule.

Count Zarth
05-01-2007, 01:22 AM
They can move, but they can't cross the line.

Bingo. But most false starts are due to an offensive player flinching before the snap - like a Chiefs offensive lineman backing up early in pass protection because he can't hear the quarterback.

Basically anything that simulates the snap is a false start.

ChiefJustice
05-01-2007, 01:35 AM
Then there is the Neil Smith rule.

The Joe Phillips rule supercedes the Smith rule.You nOOB!

Band-aids and semantics are of no use when you consider
that stormtroopers get a 15 yard penalty by default.

It's so easy.

ChiefFan31
05-01-2007, 01:54 AM
Here is a slowed-down video of a screen pass.

Note Wiegmann and Waters in the first frame as they release their blocks, before slipping out into the flat to clear space for Priest. 50-yard gain, all because the defensive linemen got too agressive in their pass rush.

http://uranus.ckt.net/~gochiefs/screenpass.gif

Wow, I already forget how bad ass our OL was. Talk about a perfectly executed screen pass.

CHENZ A!
05-01-2007, 01:58 AM
I can't recall the name for it, but if you're a defender and you run out of bounds during a play, you can't be the first guy to touch a ball when you come back in bounds. As soon as you touch it, it's a dead ball, and possession is awarded to the team that last had it. This prevents a defender from running out of bounds to avoid a player and then recovering a fumble.

this rule works the same way for offensive players. unless you are forced out of bounds.

luv
05-01-2007, 06:39 PM
Just a note for those of you who will be on at about 1AM. Tonight, I want to learn more about the salary cap and cuts/adds. While my department is slow tonight, I do have some work to get done. See you all later.

Smed1065
05-01-2007, 06:53 PM
Are you confused beyond belief about the NFL Salary Cap? Is it impossible for you to understand why some teams are WAY over the cap, while others are way under?

Fear not. The Commish is here to help. Our goal is to provide you with a quick course in Capanomics so that you can understand what is going on here. By the time we're through with you, you will have the knowledge and power to second guess your favorite team's General Manager!

The notion of the Salary Cap itself is a relatively simple one. Each team is granted a specific amount of money they can spend on player salaries. For 2001, that amount was about $67.4 M. For 2002, that amount was about $71.1 M, and in 2003 it was about $75.007 Million. For 2004, even higher revenues pushed the cap to $80.582 Million, and in 2005 it reached about $85.5 Million.

Originally, the NFL informed teams that the 2006 figure was going to be approximately $94.5 Million. However, once the owners and NFLPA voted to extend the CBA, which was due to expire after the 2007 season, their model for calculating the cap changed. Thus, the revised salary cap for 2006 was set to $102 Million.

Had the CBA not been extended, 2006 would have been the final capped season, and there would NOT have been a cap in place for 2007. Additionally, had the 2007 season carried on WITHOUT a salary cap, the NFLPA warned that they would never again agree to reinstate another cap. Mercifully, both sides averted out-and-out labor war with the extension of the CBA. For 2007, the cap will be $109 M.

Unfortunately, the rules governing the manner in which the cap is administered are so cumbersome, it takes a team of attorneys to understand them. Indeed, most NFL teams have attorneys and accountants on hand whose sole responsibility is to monitor the Salary Cap. With so much convoluted paper to go through, the Commish has decided to give you the quick and dirty details of the NFL Salary Cap.

Background


The NFL Salary Cap as we know it came about through the NFL's Collective Bargaining Agreement (CBA) back in 1993. The CBA was an agreement between the NFL Players Association (NFLPA) and the NFL owners to reach an equitable agreement in terms of the sharing of the pie, if you will.

Basically, through the CBA the parties have realized that the goal of the players and the management should be the same—increasing the revenue pie instead of fighting over the existing amount—and the NFL has tailored the CBA to achieve that end.

The NFLPA was rewarded with the concept of Free Agency, whereby players have the freedom to market their skills after a specific period of service. As a system of checks and balances, the owners sought a means of cutting back on the escalation of the players' salaries. This is accomplished by -- you guessed it -- the NFL Salary Cap.

Compromise is an abundant theme found throughout the CBA. The Free Agency system is slightly limited by the team’s ability to protect certain athletes (franchise and transition players) from leaving by paying a salary equal to an average of the top players at his position. On the other hand, the salary cap is flexible by allowing owners to pay signing bonuses up front that exceed the cap, but the amounts are amortized over the life of the contract. More important is the agreement that the cap, which is defined as a percentage of revenues, will grow as team and league revenues grow. This aligns the goals of labor and management because as teams make more money, so do the players.

The NFL Salary Cap has been in existence since 1994, and it will continue to rear its head at least through 2011, thanks to the new extension. On March 8, 2006, the NFL Management Council and the NFLPA agreed on the 5th extension to the original CBA.

In side-stepping labor war in 2006, and agreeing to extend the existing CBA , the league owners and players have jointly decided to dispell the fear of entering the 2007 season without a salary cap -- and labor peace remains on the horizon for the immediate future.
--------------------------------------------------------

This is a start but even more detailed.

Smed1065
05-01-2007, 06:54 PM
Salary cap in the NFL

The NFL's cap is a so-called "hard cap", which no team can exceed for any reason under penalty from the league. A lesser-known fact is that the NFL also has a hard salary floor—a minimum team payroll that no team can drop beneath for any reason. The cap was introduced for the 1994 season and was set at $34.6 million initially. Both the cap and the floor are adjusted annually based on the change in the league's revenues. As of 2006 the NFL salary cap is approximately 102 million US dollars per team, while the salary floor is roughly $75 million per team. This number has increased every year since 1994 and will reach approximately $109 million in 2007.

Under the NFL's agreement with the NFLPA, (with a few rare exceptions) the salary cap effects of guaranteed payments to players are prorated over the term of a contract. A $10 million dollar signing bonus on a four year contract counts as $2.5 million towards the cap during each of those four years. If a player retires, is traded, or is cut before June 1st, all remaining bonus is applied to the salary cap for the current season. If after June 1st, the current cap is unchanged, and the next year's cap must absorb the entire remaining bonus.

Because of this treatment, NFL contracts almost always include the right to cut a player before the beginning of a season. If a player is cut, his salary for the remainder of his contract is not paid, and never counted against the salary cap for that team. A highly sought-after player signing a long term contract will usually receive a guaranteed signing bonus, thus providing him with financial security even if he is cut before the end of his contract.

Incentive bonuses require a team to pay a player additional money if he achieves a certain goal. For the purposes of the salary cap bonuses are classified as either "likely to be earned" which requires the amount of the bonus to count against the cap, or as "not likely to be earned" meaning it will not count against the team's salary cap. Large NLTBE bonuses are written into contracts to make them sound larger in the media. A team's salary cap may be adjusted downwards for NLTBE bonuses that were earned in the previous year and upwards for LTBE bonuses that were not earned in the previous year.

Teams usually design contracts so that the player's cap salary is highest in later years of the cap. They accomplish this by setting the player's base salary at lower amounts in the first years of the contract than the higher years.

The effect of the salary cap has been the release of many higher-salaried veteran players and their replacement by lower-salaried younger players. The salary cap prevents teams with a superior financial situation from the formerly widespread practice of stocking as much talent on the roster as possible by placing younger players on reserve lists with false injuries. This was often used to allow an inexperienced player to learn valuable skills, and some money, while not counting as a player on the active roster. This practice allowed teams to keep an experienced, capable quarterback, whose skills were beginning to decline with age or who was merely nearing retirement, to train a potentially great, but inexperienced young quarterback. (A notable example is the case of the San Francisco 49ers playing Hall of Famer Joe Montana while grooming Hall of Famer Steve Young.)

Generally, the practice of keeping older players who had contributed to the team in the past, but whose abilities have declined, had fallen out of favor, as a veteran's minimum salary was required to be higher than a player with lesser experience. To prevent this, a veteran player who receives no bonuses in his contract may be paid the veteran minimum of up to $810,000, while only accounting for $425,000 in salary cap space.

It is widely believed that the salary cap has increased parity in the NFL. Although the system has allowed a greater turnover in playoff teams than at any other time in the Super Bowl era, it has not prevented the New England Patriots from winning three Super Bowls in four years (The seasons beginning in 2001, 2003 and 2004). Media reports have attributed this to New England's aggressively unsentimental use of the salary cap in trimming veterans (such as Lawyer Milloy, a key member of the 2001 team who was cut just before the start of the 2003 season.)

The salary cap has also served to limit the rate of increase of the cost of operating a team. This has accrued to the owners' benefit, and is widely regarded as being responsible for the NFL being overall the most financially stable of the major North American sports organizations. While the initial cap of $34.6 million has increased to $102 million, this is due to large growths of revenue.

Direckshun
05-01-2007, 07:06 PM
Brian Waters just punched that dude with one hand.

Of course, Brian's still a badass but our whole line used to be that way. God those were the days.

Smed1065
05-01-2007, 07:08 PM
starting with GR!

greg63
05-01-2007, 07:19 PM
Awesome. This is very cool. Hopefully by this time next year we have you spouting off about the nuances of the Cover 2 defense. :p

She'll school you.

greg63
05-01-2007, 07:22 PM
The Joe Phillips rule supercedes the Smith rule.You nOOB!

Band-aids and semantics are of no use when you consider
that stormtroopers get a 15 yard penalty by default.

It's so easy.

...A contradiction in terms.

Katie
05-01-2007, 07:29 PM
"To prevent this, a veteran player who receives no bonuses in his contract may be paid the veteran minimum of up to $810,000, while only accounting for $425,000 in salary cap space."

O.K. I had it all down until this part...

Count Zarth
05-01-2007, 07:42 PM
Brian Waters just punched that dude with one hand.


And sent his ass flying. Beautiful.

Count Zarth
05-01-2007, 07:44 PM
Luv, the cap is simple.

The Chiefs, and every other team, basically have a set amount of money to spend on 53 players every year. I think it's about $110 million at the moment.

It increases every offseason to account for...inflation, or some bullshit.

It's done this way so the NFL doesn't become like major league baseball. Where the Yankees are the best team more often than not because they have the most money to spend on players.

luv
05-01-2007, 10:24 PM
Luv, the cap is simple.

The Chiefs, and every other team, basically have a set amount of money to spend on 53 players every year. I think it's about $110 million at the moment.

It increases every offseason to account for...inflation, or some bullshit.

It's done this way so the NFL doesn't become like major league baseball. Where the Yankees are the best team more often than not because they have the most money to spend on players.
This will be fun to think about then. My analytical mind LOVES numbers.

Slick32
05-01-2007, 10:29 PM
Luv, the cap is simple.

The Chiefs, and every other team, basically have a set amount of money to spend on 53 players every year. I think it's about $110 million at the moment.

It increases every offseason to account for...inflation, or some bullshit.

It's done this way so the NFL doesn't become like major league baseball. Where the Yankees are the best team more often than not because they have the most money to spend on players.

You are basically right with the exception that many of the teams have the money to spend but the owners just don't want to spend like old George.

It would be interesting to see how rich each of the owners might be and how much they actually invest of their own money. As far as investing their own money I'd bet that George is #1.

luv
05-01-2007, 10:34 PM
Alrighty, work is slowly nearing an end. A quick trip to Wally World, and you guys are mine <insert evil laugh here>!!

Count Zarth
05-01-2007, 10:38 PM
BTW luv, the team with one of the cheapest payrolls won the Super Bowl last year.

luv
05-01-2007, 11:48 PM
Okie dokie. Is there a chart of some sort that has players listed and how much they're making spread out over the time of their contract? Like ESPN or kcchiefs.com or something?

Count Zarth
05-01-2007, 11:52 PM
Okie dokie. Is there a chart of some sort that has players listed and how much they're making spread out over the time of their contract? Like ESPN or kcchiefs.com or something?

Well Fox Sports has a page that is supposedly the salaries for this year. Not sure how accurate it is:

http://msn.foxsports.com/nfl/teamSalary?categoryId=67049

Failing that, NFLPA.org has a player search feature, not sure how accurate the numbers are:

http://www.nflpa.org/Resources/ActivePlayerSearch.aspx

Here is LJ's page, as you can see he's been paid peanuts:

luv
05-02-2007, 12:12 AM
Salary cap is something I'll have to research on my own, I think.

Any other need to knows?

luv
05-02-2007, 12:14 AM
"To prevent this, a veteran player who receives no bonuses in his contract may be paid the veteran minimum of up to $810,000, while only accounting for $425,000 in salary cap space."

O.K. I had it all down until this part...
Hey! Look! This thread seems to be helping more than just me. That makes me feel good.

Count Zarth
05-02-2007, 12:22 AM
Salary cap is something I'll have to research on my own, I think.

Any other need to knows?

Well, when a player signs a contract, it'll usually be reported as "7 years, $50 million dollars." That figure strokes their ego, but in reality they won't see all that money. The only portion that is guaranteed is their signing bonus.

So don't freak out when LJ signs an $80 million dollar deal sometime in the next few months. :)

luv
05-02-2007, 12:23 AM
Well, when a player signs a contract, it'll usually be reported as "7 years, $50 million dollars." That figure strokes their ego, but in reality they won't see all that money. The only portion that is guaranteed is their signing bonus.

So don't freak out when LJ signs an $80 million dollar deal sometime in the next few months. :)

Although he's worth it...
Why won't they see it? And how is the signing bonus figured?

Count Zarth
05-02-2007, 12:25 AM
Why won't they see it? And how is the signing bonus figured?

Because usually contracts are backloaded, with huge portions of the salary dumped at the end of the contract - if the player is old or declining, the team can just cut or trade him in order to avoid paying that money.

A good example is Eric Hicks, who was cut yesterday because he's being paid 4 million dollars to sit on his ass basically.

The signing bonus is just negotiated on and agreed upon by the player, his agent and the team.

luv
05-02-2007, 12:29 AM
Because usually contracts are backloaded, with huge portions of the salary dumped at the end of the contract - if the player is old or declining, the team can just cut or trade him in order to avoid paying that money.

A good example is Eric Hicks, who was cut yesterday because he's being paid 4 million dollars to sit on his ass basically.

The signing bonus is just negotiated on and agreed upon by the player, his agent and the team.
$50 over 7 years comes out to $7.14 million per year. THey don't get paid each year?

Count Zarth
05-02-2007, 12:33 AM
$50 over 7 years comes out to $7.14 million per year. THey don't get paid each year?

They get paid by the week during the season I believe (i.e the term "game checks"). It is not always evened out. A player might get a few hundred thousand one year and a few million the next year.

A player will get cut because he is making too much money one season compared to the year before - unless he is worth that money. Kendrell Bell was asked to restructure his contract this year or the year before because he's basically a waste of skin.

He was also denied a $10 million roster bonus (money awarded for being on the roster at a certain date), because he sucked ass basically. That's just one of many incentives that might be built into a contract. The Chiefs may have put incentives in Trent Green's contract like "throw X number of touchdown passes and get paid this much."

SPchief
05-02-2007, 12:37 AM
$50 over 7 years comes out to $7.14 million per year. THey don't get paid each year?


Basic example, a team signs someone to a 5 year deal worth 30 million. In year one they make 2 million, year two 3 million, year three 5 million, year four 8 million, and year five 12 million. Teams backload the contract to make it seem that the players are making more.

luv
05-02-2007, 12:37 AM
They get paid by the week during the season I believe. It is not always evened out. A player might get a few hundred thousand one year and a few million the next year.

A player will get cut because he is making too much money one season compared to the year before - unless he is worth that money. Kendrell Bell was asked to restructure his contract this year or the year before because he's basically a waste of skin.

He was also denied a $10 million roster bonus (money awarded for being on the roster at a certain date), because he sucked ass basically. That's just one of many incentives that might be built into a contract. The Chiefs may have put incentives in Trent Green's contract like "throw X number of touchdown passes and get paid this much."
I don't get how you can make more one year compared to another. Not counting bonuses and such. Or are the bonuses what make the figure different each year. And, if that's the case, then how can you make more one year from the next if you're doing less?

luv
05-02-2007, 12:38 AM
Basic example, a team signs someone to a 5 year deal worth 30 million. In year one they make 2 million, year two 3 million, year three 5 million, year four 8 million, and year five 12 million. Teams backload the contract to make it seem that the players are making more.
Ah. Making more sense.

Count Zarth
05-02-2007, 12:40 AM
how can you make more one year from the next if you're doing less?

Because the team that signed you was stupid. That's why Willie Roaf and Priest Holmes are being paid several MILLIONS of dollars this year for sitting on their ass.

luv
05-02-2007, 12:44 AM
SO, if these guys are not producing, why are they still on the payroll? Why not cut them? Do we eat that money if we do?

Count Zarth
05-02-2007, 12:48 AM
SO, if these guys are not producing, why are they still on the payroll? Why not cut them? Do we eat that money if we do?

Bingo. Their signing bonus for the remaining years on their contract would accelerate, and they would could for several millions of dollars against the salary cap all at once. So we can't cut them.

That is where the Chiefs are with Holmes. They can pay out his bonus for a few more years, or cut him and pay it all at once. If he retires, he doesn't get that money, so he's not going to retire.

luv
05-02-2007, 12:50 AM
Bingo. Their signing bonus for the remaining years on their contract would accelerate, and they would could for several millions of dollars against the salary cap all at once. So we can't cut them.

That is where the Chiefs are with Holmes. They can pay out his bonus for a few more years, or cut him and pay it all at once. If he retires, he doesn't get that money, so he's not going to retire.
So we're paying him a bonus PLUS his salary? If we cut him, we pay just his bonus. Hurts us now, but wouldn't it help later? How much longer before his contract is up?

Count Zarth
05-02-2007, 12:56 AM
So we're paying him a bonus PLUS his salary?

I'm not sure.


If we cut him, we pay just his bonus. Hurts us now, but wouldn't it help later? ?

Probably, but it would probably count against the cap too much this year. The Chiefs just have to take it. They are in a pretty good cap situation right now as it is, so they're not too bad.

I think his contract is up in 2-3 seasons.

luv
05-02-2007, 12:59 AM
I'm not sure.




Probably, but it would probably count against the cap too much this year. The Chiefs just have to take it. They are in a pretty good cap situation right now as it is, so they're not too bad.

I think his contract is up in 2-3 seasons.
So what's the deal with Roaf then? I thought he retired.

Count Zarth
05-02-2007, 01:02 AM
So what's the deal with Roaf then? I thought he retired.

Oh. I have no idea. The cap and the CBA (collective bargaining agreement) is way too complicated for the average fan to understand at it's most intimate of levels. I don't think I even want to know, anyway. Leave that crap to the GMs and agents. I prefer talking about football, not contracts.

luv
05-02-2007, 01:04 AM
Oh. I have no idea. The cap and the CBA (collective bargaining agreement) is way too complicated for the average fan to understand at it's most intimate of levels. I don't think I even want to know, anyway. Leave that crap to the GMs and agents. I prefer talking about football, not contracts.
Fine with me. Trying to figure that out was starting to give me a headache.

Katie
05-02-2007, 06:46 AM
Hey! Look! This thread seems to be helping more than just me. That makes me feel good.

I think this is probably the single most helpful thread, I've ever seen on this board...I think more people needing football 101 should read.

Thanks, luv for getting this going!

"Bob" Dobbs
05-02-2007, 09:14 AM
I think this is probably the single most helpful thread, I've ever seen on this board...I think more people needing football 101 should read.

Thanks, luv for getting this going!

I wholeheartedly agree. Awesome thread.

htismaqe
05-02-2007, 09:17 AM
These types of threads are what made the Planet GREAT...

htismaqe
05-02-2007, 09:25 AM
http://www.chiefsplanet.com/BB/showthread.php?t=118823

pikesome
05-02-2007, 09:39 AM
So we're paying him a bonus PLUS his salary? If we cut him, we pay just his bonus. Hurts us now, but wouldn't it help later? How much longer before his contract is up?

As I understand it when PH restructured he dropped his yearly pay low.

Holmes' contract expires after the 2009 season. He restructured the pact in March 2006 to give the club salary cap relief, lowering his base salary from $3.75 million to $710,000. He's scheduled to earn $870,000 in 2007.


I'm guessing that means his 2008 or 2009 yearly salary will jump up, basically the money his old contract said he would get in 2006 & 2007 got pushed back a year or two. I figure the Chiefs think they'll have the issue worked out somehow by the time his salary jumps back up. This allows us to keep counting a pro-rated part of his bonus without giving him stupid money as salary.

Dr. Facebook Fever
05-02-2007, 10:15 AM
The more I learn about it, the more I love it. I never knew how complex it was. This is the first year that I've gotten into the draft, and it's made it that much more exciting. I so can't wait for the season to start!


You may just be the perfect woman.

luv
05-02-2007, 11:49 PM
You may just be the perfect woman.
One of these days, someone will let me prove it... :p

luv
05-02-2007, 11:50 PM
I think this is probably the single most helpful thread, I've ever seen on this board...I think more people needing football 101 should read.

Thanks, luv for getting this going!
Wow. Now that is a compliment that will keep me going for awhile. Thanks!

luv
05-02-2007, 11:55 PM
Actually, IMO, the ones that made this thread great are GoChiefs, Direckshun, and the others who were patient enough to answer questions as simply as they could.

Thanks guys. I appreciate it!

Mecca
05-02-2007, 11:57 PM
I'd answer questions but I was busy downloading porn.

Count Zarth
05-02-2007, 11:57 PM
Bullshit Mecca. You can do both at once.

Mecca
05-02-2007, 11:59 PM
Bullshit Mecca. You can do both at once.

Well I have to find the porn, I'm selective about the porn I watch.......

Wow I think that's a pretty good sign I watch to much porn, carry on.

luv
05-03-2007, 12:05 AM
ANYWAY.....


Lets focus on history. What are some historical Chiefs facts that every fan should know? Greats?

luv
05-03-2007, 12:40 AM
In my book, I'm on some chapter going over really basic stuff. The field, the ball, the game clock, the teams, the officials, the scoreboard, and how the game is played.

luv
05-03-2007, 12:44 AM
I'll ask it here instead of the thread I thought of it in. Besides position on the field, what are the differences between playing guard and tackle?

Mecca
05-03-2007, 12:49 AM
It's easier to play guard.......speed rushers play DE, and if you are just a big slow guy they'll run around you.

Count Zarth
05-03-2007, 01:07 AM
What are some historical Chiefs facts that every fan should know?

We won the Super Bowl in 1970, though it seems closer to 1870.

We haven't won a playoff game since 1993. :shake:

Since that last playoff win, we've had home-field advantage in the playoffs twice (that means every playoff game you play is played in your home stadium). We've lost in the first playoff game both times.

The Chiefs have never drafted and developed a quarterback of their own.

The Chiefs were really good from 1960 - 1973
Then they really sucked from 1974 - 1988
They were really good from 1989 - 1997
We've been mediocre since 1997, with only one season that qualifies as "great."

Here's a great site for Chiefs history:

http://pro-football-reference.com/teams/kanindex.htm

Greats?

QB Len Dawson - SB winning QB
DT Buck Buchanan (SB team)
WR Otis Taylor (SB team)
LB Derrick Thomas
LB Willie Lanier (SB team)

And many, many more.

Count Zarth
05-03-2007, 01:09 AM
I'll ask it here instead of the thread I thought of it in. Besides position on the field, what are the differences between playing guard and tackle?

Basically you have to be much more talented to play tackle. It requires quick feet, balance, long arms, agility and good strength.

You'll often see offensive tackles that can't hack it moved inside to guard - like we're doing with John Welbourn this year, a guy who has played some offensive tackle for us in the past (poorly, most of the time).

luv
05-03-2007, 01:12 AM
The Chiefs have never drafted and developed a quarterback of their own.

I'm hoping we can develop Croyle.
Here's a great site for Chiefs history:

[QUOTE]http://pro-football-reference.com/teams/kanindex.htm

Cool.

cdcox
05-03-2007, 01:13 AM
I'll ask it here instead of the thread I thought of it in. Besides position on the field, what are the differences between playing guard and tackle?

Tackle is the more demanding position because the tackles are often responsible for a larger pass rush lane. The DL can rush wide of you, inside of you, or over the top of you. For some plays, the tackle may be responsible for the widest rusher. In other words, if the LB blitzes, the tackle may have to slide off the DE and go after the blitzing LB. In general the tackle faces athletic rushers that combine both power and speed. The tackle that protects the QBs blind side (LT for a RH QB or RT for a LH QB) is especially important since if he blows his assignment the QB could fumble or be injured. Another reason the LT is the most important position on the line is that the TE often lines up next to the RT, so the RT typically gets more help than the LT.

In contrast, the guard has a more narrow passing lane to defend and is typically going against a more powerful but less athletic pass rusher. The job of the guards and center is to keep the DT (and any blitzes from the middle) from collapsing the pocket and applying pressure up the in the middle of the line. Pressure from the middle is the most difficult for the defense to achieve, but also the most disruptive to the QB and the other team's offense. This is because when the QB passes, he wants to step up into the pocket. QBs throw better when their momentum is moving forward when they release the ball. Pressure from the middle disrupts this.

In general, the job of OL on passing plays is to engage the DL while moving slightly backward. An OL wants to keep his body between the DL and the QB.

On running plays things are the exact opposite; the OL are trying to push the DL and LB down field to make room for the RB. Normally the OL is trying to open a hole for the RB. This normally involves coordination between the movement in the backfield and the angles that the OL engage the DL. This can get extremely complicated and is almost impossible to show without diagramming plays. The run blocking skills that you want from your lineman depend on the running game strategy that your team employs. However, in gerneral, guards need to have enough foot speed that they can pull our of their normal position in the line to lead a sweep around the end of the line.

This is only the tip of the iceberg, but gives a basic idea.

luv
05-03-2007, 01:14 AM
Basically you have to be much more talented to play tackle. It requires quick feet, balance, long arms, agility and good strength.

You'll often see offensive tackles that can't hack it moved inside to guard - like we're doing with John Welbourn this year, a guy who has played some offensive tackle for us in the past (poorly, most of the time).
If you have to be more talented to play tackle, why would it be difficult to move in to guard?

Count Zarth
05-03-2007, 01:16 AM
If you have to be more talented to play tackle, why would it be difficult to move in to guard?

Well, most of the time, it isn't.

I don't know that I've ever heard of a guy moving from tackle to guard and failing, but a player did it might be because he wasn't strong enough.

luv
05-03-2007, 01:17 AM
Tackle is the more demanding position because the tackles are often responsible for a larger pass rush lane. The DL can rush wide of you, inside of you, or over the top of you. For some plays, the tackle may be responsible for the widest rusher. In other words, if the LB blitzes, the tackle may have to slide off the DE and go after the blitzing LB. In general the tackle faces athletic rushers that combine both power and speed. The tackle that protects the QBs blind side (LT for a RH QB or RT for a LH QB) is especially important since if he blows his assignment the QB could fumble or be injured. Another reason the LT is the most important position on the line is that the TE often lines up next to the RT, so the RT typically gets more help than the LT.

In contrast, the guard has a more narrow passing lane to defend and is typically going against a more powerful but less athletic pass rusher. The job of the guards and center is to keep the DT (and any blitzes from the middle) from collapsing the pocket and applying pressure up the in the middle of the line. Pressure from the middle is the most difficult for the defense to achieve, but also the most disruptive to the QB and the other team's offense. This is because when the QB passes, he wants to step up into the pocket. QBs throw better when their momentum is moving forward when they release the ball. Pressure from the middle disrupts this.

In general, the job of OL on passing plays is to engage the DL while moving slightly backward. An OL wants to keep his body between the DL and the QB.

On running plays things are the exact opposite; the OL are trying to push the DL and LB down field to make room for the RB. Normally the OL is trying to open a hole for the RB. This normally involves coordination between the movement in the backfield and the angles that the OL engage the DL. This can get extremely complicated and is almost impossible to show without diagramming plays. The run blocking skills that you want from your lineman depend on the running game strategy that your team employs. However, in gerneral, guards need to have enough foot speed that they can pull our of their normal position in the line to lead a sweep around the end of the line.

This is only the tip of the iceberg, but gives a basic idea.
I can understand that. THanks.

luv
05-03-2007, 01:21 AM
Then what's the big deal about moving Taylor to Guard? Well, besides the fact that we could have just drafted a guard.

cdcox
05-03-2007, 01:22 AM
The Chiefs were really good from 1960 - 1973.


BBZZZZTTT.

The '60's and early '70's greatness ended on Christmas Day, 1971. We still had many of the great Chiefs on the roster in '72 and '73, but we were on the down hill slide due Stram's decision to hold on to aging veterans for too many seasons. We were 8-6 in '72 and 7-5-2 in '73 and both of those seasons were filled with bitter disappointment, so much so that Hank Stram was fired as head coach after the '74 season.

Mecca
05-03-2007, 01:23 AM
All you really need to know about football is that the Chiefs should cut Rich Scanlon.

luv
05-03-2007, 01:23 AM
BBZZZZTTT.

The '60's and early '70's greatness ended on Christmas Day, 1971. We still had many of the great Chiefs on the roster in '72 and '73, but we were on the down hill slide due Stram's decision to hold on to aging veterans for too many seasons. We were 8-6 in '72 and 7-5-2 in '73 and both of those seasons were filled with bitter disappointment, so much so that Hank Stram was fired as head coach after the '74 season.
Stram was fired? I didn't know that.

cdcox
05-03-2007, 01:25 AM
Well, most of the time, it isn't.

I don't know that I've ever heard of a guy moving from tackle to guard and failing, but a player did it might be because he wasn't strong enough.

Some speculate that we moved Black to so many different postions in his first couple years that he got confused. This might be another reason for the failure of moving a young OL from T to G. Or maybe Jordan Black just sucked.

Count Zarth
05-03-2007, 01:26 AM
Then what's the big deal about moving Taylor to Guard? Well, besides the fact that we could have just drafted a guard.

It's not really a big deal. It happens all the time.

But Taylor might be quicker than the average college offensive guard, so he'd be an ideal candidate. Good guards have the ability to get out on the edge and lead sweeps.

cdcox
05-03-2007, 01:27 AM
Stram was fired? I didn't know that.

Sad day in KC, like watching your father get fired. That was the last coach we had that was competent on both sides of the ball.

SPchief
05-03-2007, 01:49 AM
Some speculate that we moved Black to so many different postions in his first couple years that he got confused. This might be another reason for the failure of moving a young OL from T to G. Or maybe Jordan Black just sucked.


I'm going to go with the latter of the two.

luv
05-12-2007, 07:25 PM
In the book I'm reading, it lists RB's and HB's. I thought they were the same thing?

Count Zarth
05-12-2007, 07:26 PM
Running back is kind of a general term. It encompasses both halfbacks and fullbacks. You'll also hear halfbacks referred to as "tailbacks" from time to time.

keg in kc
05-12-2007, 07:28 PM
Is she ready for the h-back discussion?

Count Zarth
05-12-2007, 07:33 PM
Is she ready for the h-back discussion?

Then there's up backs, scatbacks, phatbacks, factor backs, defensive backs....

Fried Meat Ball!
05-12-2007, 07:34 PM
Then there's up backs, scatbacks, phatbacks, factor backs, defensive backs....
... boil'd shrimp ... baked shrimp ... grilled shrimp ...

keg in kc
05-12-2007, 07:35 PM
scatbacksLike Najeh Davenport.

luv
05-12-2007, 07:38 PM
Oh dear lord. Someone throw me a life preserver. Don't think I won't Google all of this.

Count Zarth
05-12-2007, 07:41 PM
Oh dear lord. Someone throw me a life preserver. Don't think I won't Google all of this.

"I envy you - taking these first steps into a new frontier."

Fried Meat Ball!
05-12-2007, 07:45 PM
Oh dear lord. Someone throw me a life preserver. Don't think I won't Google all of this.
Try www.Blackle.com. It uses less energy (it's a google search engine).

luv
05-12-2007, 07:45 PM
Okay, give me a minute. I'm in the middle of laundry, and my computer is running slow....

Fried Meat Ball!
05-12-2007, 07:46 PM
Okay, give me a minute. I'm in the middle of laundry, and my computer is running slow....
Then it should be easy to catch!

luv
05-12-2007, 07:54 PM
Then there's up backs, scatbacks, phatbacks, factor backs, defensive backs....
up back - ???
scatback - an offensive back in football who is an especially fast and elusive ballcarrier
phatback - ???
factor back - ???
defensive back - safeties and cornerbacks

Count Zarth
05-12-2007, 07:59 PM
up back - ???
scatback - an offensive back in football who is an especially fast and elusive ballcarrier
phatback - ???
factor back - ???
defensive back - safeties and cornerbacks

Up back is just the dude standing behind the line of scrimmage on punts.

Phatback and Factor back are stupid media invented terms. Don't bother.

Skip Towne
05-12-2007, 08:51 PM
When I played football, we ran the split T formation and the wide receiver didn't exist. Would you like to know where the WR came from? OK, stay tuned. In 1959, a cadet called Bill Carpenter was the "Lonesome End" in a unique offense employed by Army. He just stayed out near the sideline on the wide side of the field. He rarely came back to the huddle. The "D" had to put a guy out there on him (the birth of the cornerback?) The concept worked so well that other teams started splitting the WR's out wide. Carpenter is now a Brigadier General who won the Silver Star for bringing in napalm on his own troops in Vietnam when it appeared his position would be overrun.

Skip Towne
05-12-2007, 09:11 PM
OK, would you like to know where platoon football came from? Back in the early 50's, most players played both ways. Paul Dietzel, head coach at LSU devised a system of using all of his players to avoid fatigue. In 1958, Dietzel used three separate teams in rotation. The White team (the first string offense and defense), The GO team, (the second team offense), and the Chinese Bandits, (the second team defense). LSU won the NC that year and platoon football was born, both college and pro. Ever since then, a player is rarely used "both ways".

Skip Towne
05-12-2007, 09:20 PM
OK, would you like to know where platoon football came from? Back in the early 50's, most players played both ways. Paul Dietzel, head coach at LSU devised a system of using all of his players to avoid fatigue. In 1958, Dietzel used three separate teams in rotation. The White team (the first string offense and defense), The GO team, (the second team offense), and the Chinese Bandits, (the second team defense). LSU won the NC that year and platoon football was born, both college and pro. Ever since then, a player is rarely used "both ways".
"Two way Tom Barndt" notwithstanding.

milkman
05-12-2007, 09:52 PM
Sad day in KC, like watching your father get fired. That was the last coach we had that was competent on both sides of the ball.

Which is to say, the only coach we had that was competent on both sides of the ball.

He was more than competent, though.
He was as innovative as any coach in the last 50 years.

Direckshun
05-12-2007, 10:24 PM
up back - ???
scatback - an offensive back in football who is an especially fast and elusive ballcarrier
phatback - ???
factor back - ???
defensive back - safeties and cornerbacks
Yeah, most of those are sophisticated/retarded terms for simple things.

Except, of course, for "defensive back" -- you've already got that down so I don't feel the need to go over it.

As far as the offensive side of the ball, everybody lined up in the backfield behind the QB who could carry the ball is a "running back," technically. But the two major types of running backs are "full backs" and "half backs" or "tail backs," which for our purposes is the same thing. But over time, the terms half- and tail-back just kind of melted away and RB replaced them.

So to depart from technical terms and jump into just regular conversation, when you talk about "running backs," you're no longer talking about anybody that's simply behind the QB when the ball is snapped, you're talking about the guy in the backfield who's there primarily to run the ball. Larry Johnson, LaDanian Tomlinson, Shawn Alexander. They're the flashiest of the "backs"; they're the ones who rack up the yards, touchdowns, and glory.

The other guy in the backfield is the "full back." He's a role player, typically only does one or two things, and many teams across the league have started phasing him out completely. The full back's main role in the offense is to charge through the holes that the OL creates and block for the RB. They rarely get any glory, but if they're good, they're very helpful.

On our offense, we converted a tight end to FB, Kris "Bigfoot" Wilson. He's very helpful because he's fairly good at opening holes, and he'll block pretty well for the QB on pass plays. Also, he's a threat to receive the ball as a check down receiver.

"Scat back" is just a term for the Tomlinson's who are small, fast, and elusive. "Power backs" are guys like LJ who want to run over you.

luv
05-12-2007, 10:29 PM
Yeah, most of those are sophisticated/retarded terms for simple things.

Except, of course, for "defensive back" -- you've already got that down so I don't feel the need to go over it.

As far as the offensive side of the ball, everybody lined up in the backfield behind the QB who could carry the ball is a "running back," technically. But the two major types of running backs are "full backs" and "half backs" or "tail backs," which for our purposes is the same thing. But over time, the terms half- and tail-back just kind of melted away and RB replaced them.

So to depart from technical terms and jump into just regular conversation, when you talk about "running backs," you're no longer talking about anybody that's simply behind the QB when the ball is snapped, you're talking about the guy in the backfield who's there primarily to run the ball. Larry Johnson, LaDanian Tomlinson, Shawn Alexander. They're the flashiest of the "backs"; they're the ones who rack up the yards, touchdowns, and glory.

The other guy in the backfield is the "full back." He's a role player, typically only does one or two things, and many teams across the league have started phasing him out completely. The full back's main role in the offense is to charge through the holes that the OL creates and block for the RB. They rarely get any glory, but if they're good, they're very helpful.

On our offense, we converted a tight end to FB, Kris "Bigfoot" Wilson. He's very helpful because he's fairly good at opening holes, and he'll block pretty well for the QB on pass plays. Also, he's a threat to receive the ball as a check down receiver.

"Scat back" is just a term for the Tomlinson's who are small, fast, and elusive. "Power backs" are guys like LJ who want to run over you.
You always seem to think ahead to what my next question will be, and you answer it before I ask.

Direckshun
05-12-2007, 10:31 PM
You always seem to think ahead to what my next question will be, and you answer it before I ask.
I just like full explanations. Can't stand it when people give me half answers to shit I want to know.

Any opportunity I can take as a Chiefs fan to breed other Chiefs fans into a proper broth of football madness, I'm there. :)

BigMeatballDave
05-12-2007, 10:32 PM
Chicks who love football = Ubersexy

luv
05-12-2007, 10:34 PM
When I played football, we ran the split T formation and the wide receiver didn't exist. Would you like to know where the WR came from? OK, stay tuned. In 1959, a cadet called Bill Carpenter was the "Lonesome End" in a unique offense employed by Army. He just stayed out near the sideline on the wide side of the field. He rarely came back to the huddle. The "D" had to put a guy out there on him (the birth of the cornerback?) The concept worked so well that other teams started splitting the WR's out wide. Carpenter is now a Brigadier General who won the Silver Star for bringing in napalm on his own troops in Vietnam when it appeared his position would be overrun.
Very cool information to know. History is very important to fully understanding the game. I appreciate it.

scott free
05-12-2007, 10:36 PM
I cant wait to actually have some active football to talk about, camp, pre-season...anything.

Even to just be able to hear about Kyle Turley spouting off about how BAD-ASS he looked in practice... :rolleyes:

Bring it on.

Direckshun
05-12-2007, 10:42 PM
I want to let you in on something really quick while we're on the topic of offensive backs. Give you a real quick rundown of the backs we have on our offense:

Larry Johnson RB

You're well familiar with this gent. He's one of the NFL's elite runners, a true power back. However, for all his talent running, he's only an "okay" receiver out of the backfield, and he's a god-awful blocker on pass plays. Hopefully it's something he's working on.

Michael Bennett RB

Bennett's our backup RB to LJ. He's an accomplished guy, we traded to acquire him not long after he had a 1,000 yard season in Minnesota. But he's got a history getting injured over and over -- just like he did last season. He's still a very solid runner, so if he stays healthy, we'll see a lot of him this year. He's no where near the power runner LJ is, he's more of an agility runner -- making him a good change of pace in the backfield. (Some will call him a "change of pace back.")

Kolby Smith RB

We drafted Smith this year in the 5th round because when Bennett got hurt, we had a bunch of shitty guys left to back up LJ. As a result, LJ carries the ball a record number of times. Smith is our insurance for Bennett. He's called an "all purpose back" because he does everything you need him to (told you there were lots of retarded terms). He's a jack of all trades -- blocking, receiving, running -- but a king of none.

Kris "Bigfoot" Wilson FB

The Chiefs do not have a "true" FB, meaning we have zero people on the team that were picked up because they play FB. We had one last season, Ronnie Cruz, but he got injured and was out for the season. Bigfoot was drafted as a TE, but we converted him to FB, and he earned the starting position (and he'll likely have it this year). He's not a mauler, but he's a decent blocker -- certainly his best quality is that he's a receiving threat any time we pass. He's a great "check down" receiver and we had a lot of success using him that way.

Boomer Grigsby FB

Here's another FB we have that we converted from another position. Grigsby's a LB that's been great on special teams but has had trouble cracking the lineup. Herm wants him on the team because he's a scrapper, so he switched this short, stocky dude to FB. Grigsby's going to specialize in blocking, especially in goal line situations when the entire defense is lining up against your OL. As you can imagine, he's probably not a great receiver.

milkman
05-12-2007, 10:42 PM
"Scat back" is just a term for the Tomlinson's who are small, fast, and elusive. "Power backs" are guys like LJ who want to run over you.

Actually Tomlinson (and guys like Marshall Faulk and Walter Payton before him) really isn't (aren't) Scatback(s).

They have that rare combination of speed, elusiveness and power that separates them, and excludes them from being labeled.

Guys like Mercury Morris, Kevin Faulk, and Michael Bennett are scatbacks.

Direckshun
05-12-2007, 10:49 PM
Actually Tomlinson really isn't a scatback.

They have that rare combination of speed, elusiveness and power that separates them, and excludes them from being labeled.
That's very true.

I remember he stiff-armed Wesley to get a TD when we played him in San Diego. :banghead:

ChiefaRoo
05-12-2007, 10:50 PM
"I envy you - taking these first steps into a new frontier."

Jesus, now the gay virgin is quoting Star Trek to a girl.

Direckshun
05-12-2007, 10:51 PM
Jesus, now the gay virgin is quoting Star Trek to a girl.
I envy him, taking those first steps into a new frontier.

keg in kc
05-12-2007, 10:52 PM
Any opportunity I can take as a Chiefs fan to breed other Chiefs fans I think you just got an offer, luv.

luv
05-12-2007, 10:53 PM
Kris "Bigfoot" Wilson FB

The Chiefs do not have a "true" FB, meaning we have zero people on the team that were picked up because they play FB. We had one last season, Ronnie Cruz, but he got injured and was out for the season. Bigfoot was drafted as a TE, but we converted him to FB, and he earned the starting position (and he'll likely have it this year). He's not a mauler, but he's a decent blocker -- certainly his best quality is that he's a receiving threat any time we pass. He's a great "check down" receiver and we had a lot of success using him that way.

SO whatever happened with Cruz?

Direckshun
05-12-2007, 10:58 PM
SO whatever happened with Cruz?
There's conflicting accounts.

He's listed as "released" in some databases that keep track of those things. Others have him on the roster. But the Chiefs themselves have never announced anything with him one way or the other.

If he's back, he's competing against a very versatile FB in Wilson, who helped us a lot last year, and Grigsby, who's obviously a favorite of the Chiefs organization.

I wouldn't have money on Cruz being on the Chiefs next year -- and if he was, I doubt we'd see him anywhere other than special teams.

Direckshun
05-12-2007, 10:59 PM
I think you just got an offer, luv.
I meant genetic breeding. I'm a geneticist.

If you want a child with Chiefs red & gold skin, I'm your man.

keg in kc
05-12-2007, 11:01 PM
Scatback is really not a term I hear all that much these days.

Generally you hear speed oriented guys referred to as change of pace backs or third down backs, although some teams prefer a bigger, blocking back along the lines of Kimble Anders or Tony Richardson (in other words, a fullback...) in the 3rd down role, because they're better in pass protection than smaller backs.

Either way, we're talking about backup runningbacks, however you want to label them...

keg in kc
05-12-2007, 11:02 PM
Since Cruz isn't on the roster (http://www.kcchiefs.com/players/), I think it's safe to say he's gone.

Direckshun
05-12-2007, 11:05 PM
Cruz is listed as "released" by ESPN.

He's listed on the team, though on KFFL.

Only thing I can think to say is wait and see. But I doubt he'll be there.

luv
05-12-2007, 11:05 PM
Since Cruz isn't on the roster (http://www.kcchiefs.com/players/), I think it's safe to say he's gone.
It shows Casey Printers. I thought we gave him the axe last year?

keg in kc
05-12-2007, 11:06 PM
Cruz is listed as "released" by ESPN.

He's listed on the team, though on KFFL.

Only think I can think to say is wait and see. But I doubt he'll be there.He's not listed as on the team by the team, I'll take that over kffl.

milkman
05-12-2007, 11:07 PM
It shows Casey Printers. I thought we gave him the axe last year?

Practice squad

keg in kc
05-12-2007, 11:07 PM
It shows Casey Printers. I thought we gave him the axe last year?You have to release players before you can pick them up on the practice squad. They're not part of the 53-man active roster.

chubychecker
05-12-2007, 11:08 PM
It's amazing how the rb position has changed. The "franchis back" is no more. Teams will get a back run him into the ground and go forward in the draft. Unless they have an extremely rare talent ie. tomlinson, for the most part the back is as good as his offensive line.

Direckshun
05-12-2007, 11:08 PM
We actually signed Printers in December to a three year deal.

He'll probably be a perennial practice squad player, since he hasn't shown much in preseasons.

luv
05-12-2007, 11:10 PM
And only two C's. Ouch.

Direckshun
05-12-2007, 11:11 PM
Oh, the good ol' days.

Chiefs | Printers struggles in debut - from www.KFFL.com
Sun, 13 Aug 2006 21:03:09 -0700

Adam Teicher, of the Kansas City Star, reports Kansas City Chiefs QB Casey Printers struggled in his NFL debut Saturday, Aug. 12, completing 6-of-12 passes for 71 yards and one interception, in addition to being sacked five times, losing a fumble, and committing an intentional grounding penalty that cost the team a field-goal opportunity.

Chiefs | Printers continues to struggle - from www.KFFL.com
Sat, 5 Aug 2006 10:32:25 -0700

Bob Gretz, of KCChiefs.com, reports Kansas City Chiefs QB Casey Printers continues to take off and run with the football at the slightest hint of pressure and has yet to develop consistent pocket presence.

Direckshun
05-12-2007, 11:11 PM
And only two C's. Ouch.
Centers, you mean?

luv
05-12-2007, 11:12 PM
Centers, you mean?
Yep.

Direckshun
05-12-2007, 11:18 PM
Yep.
I assume you mean "ouch" because we look shallow at the C position? I wouldn't worry about it that much.

The main reason I wouldn't worry about it is because we have Casey Weigmann. If he starts, if he doesn't start, it doesn't matter. The guy's an iron man that stays healthy and shows up week in and week out. He's like Will Shields Jr.

Second of all, even if we somehow did end up with both centers injured, the role of center is different from the role of a guard in exactly one way: he hikes the ball to the QB. Other than that, the center is basically a third guard -- making it possible for an OG to slide over to his position without much problem in that regard.

The big difference, obviously, is snapping the ball. It's not that hard of a procedure, and most any OG can do that motion, but it's a biiiiiiig rhythm thing. C's need to have a rhythm with their QB's, otherwise you're looking at a few fumbles out of the snap.

luv
05-12-2007, 11:31 PM
Do the chiefs have practices open to the public? Or would I have to go to the mini camp thing to see one?

Direckshun
05-12-2007, 11:34 PM
Shrug. Camp at River Falls seems to be open to the public, but that's a ways off.

I do know that they do have an outdoor practice facility. I've been there. You could easily watch them if they practiced there from the TSC parking lot. But I wouldn't know how to go about it.

luv
05-13-2007, 12:12 AM
Okay, where did everyone go? I'm sure I can think of some more questions. :)

Direckshun
05-13-2007, 12:16 AM
I'm here and in a football mood.

Come wit' it before you forgit it.

luv
05-13-2007, 12:16 AM
Looking ahead in my book, I've got the O-linemen, the defense, and the special teams to get through before going on to plays. Looking forward to that.

Direckshun
05-13-2007, 12:18 AM
Looking ahead in my book, I've got the O-linemen, the defense, and the special teams to get through before going on to plays. Looking forward to that.
You've got the best part coming. You win games with defense and OL.

luv
05-13-2007, 12:20 AM
I'm here and in a football mood.

Come wit' it before you forgit it.
Okie dokie, smokey. I'll skip ahead to plays. I think I have a good grasp for the defense, and I can read up on special teams later. Let's see....

Oh goodness....pass patterns, play action, pump fake, throwing it away, intentional grounding, scramble.......

luv
05-13-2007, 12:22 AM
So much to learn before the season starts. O-line. I've been reading in other threads about who will win out for each spot. People also say we're weak. What are our holes, and why are they holes?

Direckshun
05-13-2007, 12:28 AM
Oh goodness....pass patterns, play action, pump fake, throwing it away, intentional grounding, scramble.......
Easy stuff.

Pass patterns are the routes that receivers run.

Play action is when the QB fakes handing the ball off to the RB. The intention is to get the defense to bite on the fake for just one half-second, so that a speedy WR can get open.

Pump fake is when a QB pumps the ball in his hand, as if he were to throw the ball, but he holds onto it. The intent is to get a defensive back to bite on the fake pass and get out of position -- it also helps to fake the DL out of the way, since they'll often jump up to block a pass.

Intentional grounding is when a QB is obviously throwing the ball to nobody. Nobody's in the area where he's thrown the ball. It's a penalty. (It only applies to when the QB is in the pocket.)

Scrambling is when a QB tucks the ball in and runs. It can be something like Trent Green does (checks the field for open receivers, if there aren't any, he'll run) or Vince Young (doesn't even check the field, just runs).

Direckshun
05-13-2007, 12:57 AM
So much to learn before the season starts. O-line. I've been reading in other threads about who will win out for each spot. People also say we're weak. What are our holes, and why are they holes?
I'd put money on us having a weak OL this year. Others like GoChiefs will contend that our OL will get better this year, but ultimately I think it's just not going to get the job done.

The main reason? We've had two HOFers retire in the last two years. With that kind of loss, it always takes a season or two to recover.

At this point, you're familiar with the positions on the OL.

LT -- LG -- C -- RG -- RT

Left Tackle
(Likely starter: Damion McIntosh. Other candidate: Will Svitek.)

Why people say we're going to suck at LT: "Damion McIntosh is an OG moved to OT. He's only a stop-gap solution, because there's no way this big slob will be able to handle speed rushers. Good LTs are an extremely hot commodity -- if he was so good, why did the Dolphins let him go and why did the Chiefs sign him for so little? Svitek's a 6th rounder, and been nothing but injured for the Chiefs. He looked good in NFL Europe, but that's a far cry from being a good OT in the NFL."

Why people say we've improved at LT: "First of all, nobody could be worse at LT than Jordan ****ing Black. You could put a ham sandwich there and it'd do better than Black. McIntosh is the perfect stopgap LT until we get a stud who can pin the position down. Over the last two years, McIntosh gave up a grand total of nine sacks with virtually no holding penalties -- that's very good, I don't care what his natural position is. And he did it on a bad OL. McIntosh can play OG, too, so not only is he pretty talented, he can play at least four positions on the OL if need be."

Left Guard
(Likely starter: Brian Waters. Other candidate: Chris Bober.)

No arguments against Brian Waters. He's an All Pro OG that is a leader in this offense.

Center
(Likely starter: Casey Wiegmann. Other candidate: Rudy Niswanger.)

Why people say we're going to suck at C: "We've been waiting and waiting for Niswanger to show us anything since we drafted him, and he hasn't seen one minute of playing time. Part of that is because Wiegmann is an iron man, but part of that is that Rudy just can't beat him out for the position when he's heavier and stronger. Wiegmann, in the mean time, is agile and smart, which is perfect for a complex offense that uses a lot of fast sweeps and pulls him out to the wing -- but in Herm's offense, a simple, down-your-throats offense, he's simply not strong enough. He got beat a lot last year by stronger DTs."

Why people say we're okay at C: "The time is right for Niswanger to make an impact. Herm's settled in for a year, he's seen the offense at work, and now he might realize that a burlier center is what this offense needs. Wiegmann's old and undersized, and isn't a fit for this offense, but he's still a talented player and he wants to play -- he can hold the fort while we wait for Niswanger or a future draftee to take over."

Right Guard
(Likely starter: John Welbourne. Other candidates: Chris Bober, Herb Taylor.)

Why people say we're going to suck at RG: "How on earth do you replace a talent like William Shields? Certainly not with a guy who's almost as old as Shields was, and once suspended for steroid usage. John Welbourne has stunk the times he's played on our OL, even if it was at OT. Who the hell even knows if he'll play the whole season? What if he tests positive again? Bober's not fast enough to play, and Herb Taylor is a 6th rounder who didn't play this position in college."

Why people say we're improved at RG: "Will Shields was elite for many years, but the decline last year was obvious. Losing him is not a major loss. Replacing him will be a guy who played next to Shields on the OL for years. John Welbourne wants to play, and he's finally going to get a chance to play his natural position -- one he did quite well at when he played there in Philadelphia. He's a proven starter, and should be an improvement over the next year or two. If nothing else, he's a great stopgap until a younger guy develops or until we draft a stud."

Right Tackle
(Likely starter: Will Svitek. Other candidates: Chris Terry, Kevin Sampson, Herb Taylor, Ramiro "Mexitackle" Pruneda.)

Why people say we're going to suck at RT: "We have no earthly idea who's going to play there! Is Chris Terry in trouble with the law, or not? Is Svitek NFL material, or not? Is Kevin Sampson capable of staying healthy for more than four games, or not? Is 6th rounder Herb Taylor worth anything, or not? Have we seen anything promising from the big Mexican, or not? It doesn't matter -- all of these guys range from barely decent to flat out bad."

Why people say we're going to improve at RT: "RT was a revolving door in 2006. Nobody played that position for more than a handful of games last year. This year, we're going to get some stability -- just as soon as we figure out who the hell's there. Svitek's been said to have earned the position thus far. Terry's a proven quality starter who will take the starting position if he stays out of trouble. Sampson played admirably when he stayed healthy. Taylor and the Mexitackles are unknown quantities at this point. But consistency will help."

luv
05-13-2007, 01:07 AM
Wow.

How does this compare to the Dline we already had before the draft? Did we need the defensive players we got, or did we need to focus more on the oline?

luv
05-13-2007, 01:08 AM
Wow.

How does this compare to the Dline we already had before the draft? Did we need the defensive players we got, or did we need to focus more on the oline?
That made zero sense. We'll blame it on lack of sleep. Comparing our oline to our dline is like comparing apples to oranges. Let's focus on the second part of that post.

Direckshun
05-13-2007, 01:16 AM
Wow.

How does this compare to the Dline we already had before the draft? Did we need the defensive players we got, or did we need to focus more on the oline?
The Dline we already had was decent, and wasn't deep. DT James Reed has actively complained (http://www.kansascity.com/160/story/103904.html) that starters on the DL had to play too many snaps and would get exhausted because there was nobody else on the bench that was any good.

You had DE Tamba Hali, DT Ron Edwards, DT James Reed, and DE Jared Allen, with only one decent backup in DE/DT Jimmy Wilkerson -- who shouldn't even have played at DT, and will just be a DE this year.

Hali and Allen got the job done, but again, had no help. Edwards and Reed are decent; they played for Herm Edwards on the Jets, and when Herm arrived in KC he realized our DTs didn't cut it and signed those two guys off the streets.

This year will be a massive improvement, both in quality and in depth.

Herm has said that he wants a rotation of 4 DTs, and 3 DEs, so that whoever's on the field is fresh and can give 100%.

We kept Edwards and Reed, and Reed should have a good shot at starting. We picked up Alphonso Boone from the Bears, a space-eating run-stuffer who was a large part of the Bears' DL's success. (That the Bears' defense is incredible needs no explanation.)

We also drafted a couple guys for the DL, as you know. Turk McBride, our second rounder, will fill in for Allen for those first four games at DE, and will spend the rest of the year at both DE and DT. He's versatile, a James Reed-esque motorhead who is tenacious and never, ever stops. And Tank Tyler's a huge bastard who is easily the strongest DT on our squad -- perhaps the strongest guy on the team. He was a steal in the 3rd and should contest for a starting position right away.

So, in quality and in depth, our DL should be much better this year.

Direckshun
05-13-2007, 01:18 AM
That made zero sense. We'll blame it on lack of sleep. Comparing our oline to our dline is like comparing apples to oranges. Let's focus on the second part of that post.
It made enough sense. I apologize for the long-winded answers, they may be confusing.

Basically put, our OL will be one of our weakest squads this year, and our DL will be one of our strongest.

luv
05-13-2007, 01:22 AM
It made enough sense. I apologize for the long-winded answers, they may be confusing.

Basically put, our OL will be one of our weakest squads this year, and our DL will be one of our strongest.
Not confusing at all. Structured to where I can focus on one section at a time.

People have said that we will be a very boring team to watch this year. While we may struggle offensively, I think it will be interesting to see us try to develop a new young QB in Croyle. Looking forward to seeing Bowe in action as well. I think there are enough fresh, new faces to keep it interesting.

Direckshun
05-13-2007, 01:27 AM
Not confusing at all. Structured to where I can focus on one section at a time.

People have said that we will be a very boring team to watch this year. While we may struggle offensively, I think it will be interesting to see us try to develop a new young QB in Croyle. Looking forward to seeing Bowe in action as well. I think there are enough fresh, new faces to keep it interesting.
For Chiefs fans, yes. This will be an intriguing year. Will our D see the boost we've been waiting for? Will the O keeps its head above water? Will Croyle stumble or will he show potential? Do we have the kicker we need?

For anybody else who has no special interest in the Chiefs like we do, we will not be a very fun team to watch. Our OL is going to be pretty weak, all our WRs are young and inexperienced outside of Kennison, Croyle's a no-name as far as the market's concerned, and the Cover 2 isn't exactly the sexiest defense out there.

acesn8s
05-13-2007, 01:30 AM
For Chiefs fans, yes. This will be an intriguing year. Will our D see the boost we've been waiting for? Will the O keeps its head above water? Will Croyle stumble or will he show potential? Do we have the kicker we need?

For anybody else who has no special interest in the Chiefs like we do, we will not be a very fun team to watch. Our OL is going to be pretty weak, all our WRs are young and inexperienced outside of Kennison, Croyle's a no-name as far as the market's concerned, and the Cover 2 isn't exactly the sexiest defense out there.Our offense isn't too sexy either.

Direckshun
05-13-2007, 01:34 AM
Our offense isn't too sexy either.
True.

luv
05-13-2007, 01:35 AM
For Chiefs fans, yes. This will be an intriguing year. Will our D see the boost we've been waiting for? Will the O keeps its head above water? Will Croyle stumble or will he show potential? Do we have the kicker we need?

For anybody else who has no special interest in the Chiefs like we do, we will not be a very fun team to watch. Our OL is going to be pretty weak, all our WRs are young and inexperienced outside of Kennison, Croyle's a no-name as far as the market's concerned, and the Cover 2 isn't exactly the sexiest defense out there.
I've heard several people complain about the Cover 2. From my limited knowledge, it seems like a pretty good defense. What don't you like about it?

I can see how a man-to-man defense would be good. Everyone is responsible for their offensive counterpart. I relate that to the man-on-man defense of basketball. If we have a good enough defense, we might be able to double team. Is that terminology correct for football as well?

Direckshun
05-13-2007, 01:45 AM
I've heard several people complain about the Cover 2. From my limited knowledge, it seems like a pretty good defense. What don't you like about it?

I can see how a man-to-man defense would be good. Everyone is responsible for their offensive counterpart. I relate that to the man-on-man defense of basketball. If we have a good enough defense, we might be able to double team. Is that terminology correct for football as well?
It's really hard for me to complain about the Cover 2. Tony Dungy (current HC for the Colts) was the HC of the Super Bowl champions Tampa Bay Buccaneers. He implemented the Cover 2 for that team, and they won the Super Bowl.

Guess who else was on that coaching staff? Lovie Smith (current HC of the Bears), and Herm Edwards. Lovie Smith implements the Cover 2 in Chicago, and they go the Super Bowl. Tony Dungy implements the Cover 2 in Indianapolis, and he wins the Super Bowl. Herm Edwards implements it here, and turns a sorry-ass defense into a Top 10 contender this year.

It churns out results. I can't deny that. I'm for whatever gets our D better.

My only concerns this year is that Donnie Edwards may lose a step at his age (LBs have to cover a lot of ground), and that for a defense that relies heavily on its safeties, we're starting two very young guys there -- let's hope they're really good.

As for double-teams, they do exist in football. Most often, they exist as "brackets" -- Tony G has to face these all the time. One defender plays in front of the player, and another plays behind him, "bracketing" him in.

acesn8s
05-13-2007, 01:46 AM
I've heard several people complain about the Cover 2. From my limited knowledge, it seems like a pretty good defense. What don't you like about it?

I can see how a man-to-man defense would be good. Everyone is responsible for their offensive counterpart. I relate that to the man-on-man defense of basketball. If we have a good enough defense, we might be able to double team. Is that terminology correct for football as well?or gay porn

whatever you like

luv
05-13-2007, 01:50 AM
As much as I could go on talking about this, I'll save anything else for later. I'm going on about 3 hours of sleep for the past 36 hours, and I have the day to spend with my mom tomorrow. I'm sure I'll pick up on this later. As for now, I'm crashing hard. Thanks for your time and the more than adequate answers, Direckshun.

Direckshun
05-13-2007, 01:52 AM
As much as I could go on talking about this, I'll save anything else for later. I'm going on about 3 hours of sleep for the past 36 hours, and I have the day to spend with my mom tomorrow. I'm sure I'll pick up on this later. As for now, I'm crashing hard. Thanks for your time and the more than adequate answers, Direckshun.
Good night, and long live football.

keg in kc
05-13-2007, 02:12 AM
It's really hard for me to complain about the Cover 2. Tony Dungy (current HC for the Colts) was the HC of the Super Bowl champions Tampa Bay Buccaneers. He implemented the Cover 2 for that team, and they won the Super Bowl.

Guess who else was on that coaching staff? Lovie Smith (current HC of the Bears), and Herm Edwards. Lovie Smith implements the Cover 2 in Chicago, and they go the Super Bowl. Tony Dungy implements the Cover 2 in Indianapolis, and he wins the Super Bowl.A couple of things to clear up, although they don't directly pertain to the point you're making:

1. Dungy wasn't HC when Tampa Bay won the Superbowl. Jon Gruden was. Dungy had been roundly criticized in Tampa for the long-time failures of the Bucs offense (similar to what we're hearing about Edwards now).
2. Smith and Edwards were on Dungy's staff, but not during the Superbowl season. In 2001 (Dungy's last season, the year before the Superbowl run), Lovie Smith left to become the DC in St. Louis while Edwards was named the Jets head coach.

Direckshun
05-13-2007, 02:19 AM
Shit. Thanks for clearing that up.

milkman
05-13-2007, 06:48 AM
A couple of corrections here.

Rudy Niswanger was an undrafted free agent rookie last season.
No one has been "waiting" for him to take over for Wiegman, though some of us hope that he can.

Ron Edwards played in Buffalo for D-Line coach Tim Krumrie before signing with the Chiefs as a free gent.

Otter
05-13-2007, 10:23 AM
Thread title should have been "I Luv Football". :D

luv
05-13-2007, 11:10 PM
Okay, explain restricted free agents to me in layman's terms.

Restricted free agent
Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia - Cite This Source

In the National Football League, a restricted free agent is one with three accrued seasons of service. He has received a "qualifying" offer (a salary level predetermined by the Collective Bargaining Agreement between the league and its players) from his old club. He can negotiate with any club through a certain date. If the restricted free agent accepts an offer sheet from a new club, his old club can match the offer and retain him because it has the "right of first refusal." If the old club does not match the offer, it can possibly receive draft-choice compensation depending on the amount of its qualifying offer. If an offer sheet is not executed, the player's rights revert to his old club the day after negotiations must end.

I think I understand this, but I don't understand the outcome with JA, I guess. No one made an offer, so he belongs ot the Chiefs. What if he refuses to accept the terms set before him by the Chiefs at this point?

luv
05-13-2007, 11:19 PM
(from another thread) Not really. If he doesn't want what we offer, he'll hold out.
What happens if he doesn't come to an agreement?

Direckshun
05-13-2007, 11:24 PM
I'm going to need people to grade my homework here, because I'm not fluent in free agency.

My understanding is that Jared Allen can hold out as long as he desires if he doesn't like what he's being offered.

But he's extremely unlikely to do that, because the Chiefs have offered him a generous-yet-fair offer and JA does actually want to play in KC.

keg in kc
05-13-2007, 11:26 PM
This is mostly off-the-cuff, and I hope it's correct. It may not be.

IIRC, no teams were able to make an offer because Jared refused to sign the qualifying offer sheet the Chiefs presented him early in March. I believe he has to sign that sheet by June 15th (although I don't know what happens if he doesn't). That's irrelevant with regards to other teams signing him. The deadline for that was (I think) the Friday a week before the draft. The Chiefs would have had a week to match the offer made by the new team.

If the Chiefs had not matched the offer, had Jared signed it and a new team made him a contract offer, the new team that signed Jared would've had to send KC 1st and 3rd round draft choices for him.

keg in kc
05-13-2007, 11:28 PM
because the Chiefs have offered him a generous-yet-fair offer and JA does actually want to play in KC.I don't know that I'd refer to the offer as generous or fair, it was simply the league-mandated maximum tender amount for a restricted free agent.

luv
05-13-2007, 11:33 PM
This is mostly off-the-cuff, and I hope it's correct. It may not be.

IIRC, no teams were able to make an offer because Jared refused to sign the qualifying offer sheet the Chiefs presented him early in March. I believe he has to sign that sheet by June 15th (although I don't know what happens if he doesn't). That's irrelevant with regards to other teams signing him. The deadline for that was (I think) the Friday a week before the draft. The Chiefs would have had a week to match the offer made by the new team.

If the Chiefs had not matched the offer, had Jared signed it and a new team made him a contract offer, the new team that signed Jared would've had to send KC 1st and 3rd round draft choices for him.
Ah, so no one felt he was worth 1st and 3rd round draft picks.

Direckshun
05-13-2007, 11:35 PM
Ah, so no one felt he was worth 1st and 3rd round draft picks.
Eh...

Remember, the price is doubly high, because if anybody wanted him, not only would they have to pay us two draft picks, but they'll have Jared Allen to negotiate with, and he'd likely ask for a huge payday.

keg in kc
05-13-2007, 11:35 PM
Ah, so no one felt he was worth 1st and 3rd round draft picks.There's no way of knowing. Jared didn't sign the qualifying offer sheet that the Chiefs sent him, so he couldn't negotiate with other teams.

luv
05-13-2007, 11:38 PM
There's no way of knowing. Jared didn't sign the qualifying offer sheet that the Chiefs sent him, so he couldn't negotiate with other teams.
So, by not signing an offer sheet, he chose to remain with the Chiefs. Now he's saying he's worth more than what they're offering?

keg in kc
05-13-2007, 11:42 PM
So, by not signing an offer sheet, he chose to remain with the Chiefs. Now he's saying he's worth more than what they're offering?Not really, no. His agent said in early March he'll sign the tender.

Bascially he's just being a pain in the butt.

keg in kc
05-13-2007, 11:53 PM
If you want to be really bored, here's the pertinent information, taken directly from the Collective Bargaining Agreement: Section 2. Restricted Free Agents:

(a) Any Veteran player with three or more Accrued Seasons, but less than five Accrued Seasons (or less than four Accrued Seasons in any Capped Year), shall, at the expiration of his last Player Contract during such period, become a Restricted Free Agent. Any such player shall be completely free to negotiate and sign a Player Contract with any Club, and any Club shall be completely free to negotiate and sign a Player Contract with any such player, subject to the restrictions set forth in this Article.

(b) In order to receive the following specified Rights of First Refusal and/or Draft Choice Compensation with respect to a Restricted Free Agent, the Prior Club of a Restricted Free Agent must tender the player a Qualifying Offer on or before the first date of the Restricted Free Agent Signing Period, as follows:

(i) For Restricted Free Agents with three Accrued Seasons:

(5) Right of First Refusal, One First Round Draft Selection, and One Third Round Draft Selection: one year Player Contract with a Paragraph 5 Salary of at least

(a) $2,096,600 for the 2006 League Year, $2,350,000 for the 2007 League Year, $2,562,000 for the 2008 League Year, $2,792,000 for the 2009 League Year, $3,043,000 for the 2010 League Year, $3,317,000 for the 2011 League Year, or $3,616,000 for the 2012 League Year, as applicable, or

(b) 110% of the player’s prior year’s Paragraph 5 Salary, whichever is greater; in addition, if option (b) applies, all other terms of the player’s prior year contract are carried forward unchanged;


(h) Signing Period. The dates of the period in which Restricted Free Agents shall be free to negotiate and sign a Player Contract with any Club (the “Signing Period”) shall be agreed upon by the NFL and the NFLPA by the previous September 1, but in no event may such Signing Period be less than a period of forty-five days, unless the parties agree otherwise.

(i) (i) In the event that a Restricted Free Agent has not signed a Player Contract with a Club within the Signing Period in the League Year following the expiration of his last Player Contract, and if the Prior Club by June 1 tenders to the Restricted Free Agent a one year Player Contract of at least 110% of his Paragraph 5 Salary (with all other terms of his prior year contract carried forward unchanged) or extends the player’s Qualifying Offer, whichever is greater (the “June 1 Tender”), the Prior Club shall be the only Club with which the player may negotiate or sign a Player Contract during the period from June 1 until the Tuesday following the tenth week of the regular season, at 4:00 p.m. New York time. If the player’s Qualifying Offer is greater than 110% of the player’s Paragraph 5 Salary (with all other terms of his prior year contract carried forward unchanged), the Club may withdraw the Qualifying Offer on June 15 and retain its rights under the preceding sentence, so long as the Club immediately tenders the player a one year Player Contract of at least 110% of his Paragraph 5 Salary (with all other terms of his prior year contract carried forward unchanged) (the “June 15 Tender”).

(ii) If a Restricted Free Agent described in Subsection 2(i) (i) above has not signed a Player Contract by the Tuesday following the tenth week of the regular season, at 4:00 p.m. New York time, the player shall not play football in the NFL for the remainder of that League Year, absent a showing to the Impartial Arbitrator of extreme Club or extreme personal hardship. The determination of the Impartial Arbitrator shall be made within five days of the application, and shall consider all information relating to such hardship submitted by such date. The determination of the Impartial Arbitrator shall be final and binding upon all parties.

(iii) If a Restricted Free Agent does not play in the NFL in a League Year, his Prior Team shall have the right to tender such player any Qualifying Offer consistent with Section 2(b) prior to the next League Year’s Restricted Free Agent Signing Period. In the event such a Qualifying Offer is tendered, the Prior Team shallhave the applicable rights regarding such player according to such tender, and such player shall have the same rights regarding negotiations with other Clubs as he had the previous League Year.

(j) In the event that a Restricted Free Agent has not signed a Player Contract with a Club by June 1 in the League Year following the expiration of his last Player Contract, and if his Prior Club has not by that date made the applicable June 1 Tender to such player, or withdraws the tender, or in the event the Club has withdrawn the applicable June 15 Tender, the player shall be completely free to negotiate and sign a Player Contract with any Club, and any Club may negotiate and sign a Player Contract with such player, without any penalty or restriction, including, but not limited to, Draft Choice Compensation between Clubs or First Refusal Rights of any kind, or any signing period.

(k) Promptly upon but no later than two business days after the signing of any Restricted Free Agent to a Player Contract, or the extending to any Restricted Free Agent of a Qualifying Offer, the signing or extending Club shall notify the NFL, which shall notify the NFLPA of such signing or offer.

(l) Draft Choice Compensation under this Article shall be due in that League Year’s Draft unless the Offer Sheet is received by the Prior Club later than two days before that League Year’s Draft, in which case Draft Choice Compensation shall be due in the following League Year’s Draft.

(m) Notwithstanding the foregoing, in the event that the Prior Club of a Restricted Free Agent has tendered the player a Qualifying Offer pursuant to this Article XIX, Section 2(m) in an amount at least $500,000 greater than that specified by Subsections 2(b)(i)(5) or 2(b)(ii)(5) above, as applicable depending upon whether the League Year is a Capped Year or an Uncapped Year, or by Article LVI, Section 2(b), if applicable, then the Club shall have a Right of First Refusal and Draft Choice Compensation of only One First Round Selection, but any provision in an Offer Sheet to such player waiving or limiting the New Club’s ability to designate the player as a Franchise Player or Transition Player in the future shall not be a Principal Term, and therefore need not be included in a contract formed with the Prior Club as a result of matching such an Offer Sheet (but shall be included in a contract formed with the New Club as a result of the Prior Club not matching
such an Offer Sheet).

luv
05-13-2007, 11:57 PM
If you want to be really bored, here's the pertinent information, taken directly from the Collective Bargaining Agreement:
You'd be amazed at how bored I can be. As soon as I fold my towels and put my sheets in the dryer, I'm reading that.

luv
05-14-2007, 12:16 AM
I read parts and skimmed others. From what I did read, if he doesn't sign by the designated time, then he doesn't play that year. The whole thing basically starts over the next year. So, he can tell them what he thinks he's worth, but it's up to the Chiefs as to how much he's going to get at this point. He signs, or he doesn't play. No play would equal no money, so it would be foolish not to do so. If he signs the one year contract, does he then become a unrestricted free agent at the end of the year?

CoMoChief
05-14-2007, 12:22 AM
Football is actually an easy game to understand. Especially as simple Herm's offense is.

luv
05-14-2007, 12:25 AM
BTW, I had a friend call earlier. He's a fellow Chiefs fan. I was talking to him about a bad date and mentioned the draft. He said he didn't really pay attention to the offseason stuff. He went on to ask me who would be our starting QB this year. I told him that it would probably be Croyle with Huard as backup. He asked about Trent, and I was able to tell him that I doubted Trent would be a Chief much longer. I told him about the standstill we're in regarding him. If it wasn't for you guys answering my questions to where I would be able to understand what's going on in other threads, I would have never been able to do that. I was so proud of myself. Thanks guys!

Direckshun
05-14-2007, 12:42 AM
You're very welcome!

Way to go!