PDA

View Full Version : Whitlock: Wanted: More Offense


siberian khatru
05-01-2007, 06:26 AM
http://www.kansascity.com/182/story/89730.html

Wanted: more offense
By JASON WHITLOCK - Columnist

In case you forgot, when last we saw our Chiefs, the final score was 23-8, the Chiefs didnít get a first down until late in the third quarter, Larry Johnson rushed for 32 yards, and the Indianapolis Colts fielded one of the leagueís worst defenses.

Carl Peterson, Herm Edwards and Bill Kuharich should have been forced to re-watch KCís playoff loss in the hours leading up to the draft. Maybe then they would have been reminded of what they needed to do over the weekend.

Kansas Cityís offense needs a major injection of youth, talent and energy. Somehow that has all been forgotten this offseason. So after signing two free-agent linebackers, the Chiefs reluctantly settled on a wide receiver in the first round of the draft and then settled on a Turk and a Tank, two defensive linemen, in the second and third rounds.

Am I the only one who remembers Indianapolis? Am I the only one who remembers that Dick Vermeil went overboard trying to build an offense and that Herm promised to build a complete team?

Am I the only person who thinks it is absolute lunacy to hand Larry Johnson any more contract leverage?

Let me be the first to label this offseason a failure. I donít mind climbing out on limbs. Iíll be the first to apologize if Iím wrong. But from my view, the Chiefs played this thing all wrong.

They did not do near enough to fix their decaying offense. Will Shields retired. Trent Green is on his way out. Larry Johnson wants Peyton Manning money. The Chiefs never replaced Willie Roaf or Tony Richardson. Eddie Kennison is old.

And letís see, a little more than three months after the most embarrassing offensive performance in the history of the league, the Chiefs take a flier on Sylvester Bowe or Dwayne Morris or SlyBowe.

Hey, Iím not down on Dwayne Bowe, the receiver out of LSU. I was happy about his acquisition. I called it a great pick at the time. But the Chiefs needed to do more on the offensive side of the ball.

They should have taken an offensive tackle in the second round. Who? I donít know. If there was no tackle worthy of a second-round pick, Iíd have taken another receiver. In the third round, they should have selected Louisville running back Michael Bush, a sure-fire top-15 pick had he not broken his leg. The Raiders took Bush with the first pick of the fourth round. He might be the steal of the draft.

Right now, if Larry Johnson holds out in a contract dispute, Brodie Croyle and Damon Huard should sue Peterson, Edwards and Kuharich for negligence.

It is impossible to develop a young quarterback (Croyle) without the proper complementary surrounding talent. It appears Croyle is going to get Schottenheimered, which is quarterback death caused by neglect.

Dick Vermeil put on a five-year clinic on how to develop a quarterback. You pamper quarterbacks. Peterson didnít pay attention, and Herm spends his free time fantasizing about 9-3 field-goal shootouts.

Did anyone notice that the Colts drafted a receiver in the first round and an offensive tackle in the second? The Colts are constantly giving Manning new toys to play with.

Croyle and Huard got Bowe and upgraded life-insurance policies. Meanwhile, Herm and Gunther Cunningham got a Tank and a Turk to maneuver, and a new kicker.

If Johnson is a no-show, the Chiefs wonít score a touchdown this season. Not an offensive one. Even with Johnson, the KC offense is still highly suspect. Bowe is not a burner. He wonít open up passing lanes for Tony Gonzalez. In fact, Bowe is likely to crowd Gonzalezís zones. Best-case scenario, Bowe is a T.J. Houshmandzadeh, the Bengals receiver who plays opposite speedster Chad Johnson.

The Chiefs donít have a Chad Johnson. They donít have a dominant offensive line, either. They have a top-flight, 31-year-old tight end and a punishing, overworked, hard-to-like running back who wants a $30 million signing bonus. Thatís it.

The Chiefs made five key acquisitions this offseason: two linebackers, two defensive tackles and a receiver.

Rewatch the Indy playoff game and ask yourself whether the offseason strategy makes any sense at all.

JBucc
05-01-2007, 06:30 AM
It's nice to see jason back writing bad football articles.

siberian khatru
05-01-2007, 06:30 AM
Jason's been on a roll recently, but frankly, I think this column sucks.

Here's the key reason why:

They should have taken an offensive tackle in the second round. Who? I donít know. If there was no tackle worthy of a second-round pick, Iíd have taken another receiver.

"Pick somebody, I don't care who! Just draft by position, I don't care if they're any good!"

That's AWFUL logic. AWFUL draft strategy. We pick the 5th or 9th best WR or OT instead of the 3rd or 4th best DT? No way.

You can't change what the draft gives you.

We had too many holes to fill with just one draft, with just one offseason. This isn't about 2007, it's about 2008-09. IMO, we did a good job this year. Hopefully, we'll plug the remaining holes next year.

Reerun_KC
05-01-2007, 06:52 AM
Beautiful article!!!!!!!

Best Article I have read out of the draft.. best part was "Herm spends his free time fantasizing about 9-3 field-goal shootouts."

Spot on JW... :bravo:

Ari Chi3fs
05-01-2007, 06:53 AM
who? Ryan ****ing Kalil in the 2nd Round.

Fried Meat Ball!
05-01-2007, 06:59 AM
I posted this in the other one... but I thought I'd reiterate...




then settled on a Turk and a Tank ....


.... Meanwhile, Herm and Gunther Cunningham got a Tank and a Turk to maneuver, and a new kicker.


Weak writing, Jason. I don't like you, but you're generally a better writer than to repeat your jokes.

trndobrd
05-01-2007, 06:59 AM
Making draft selections in order to prevent current players from gaining leverage on contract negotiations is downright stupid. How does that improve the football team? Let's draft another RB in the 1st and a TE in the 2nd....there, all better.

I still don't understand the comparisons of Sylvester Morris to Bowe. Morris had injury issues which no one could have forseen. Perhaps the Chiefs should not select players when they have had a bust at that position. The same logic used by roulette players who believe a number is 'due'.

Speaking of Bowe. What is the deal with the "slow" tag? All he does is get open, catch the ball and get yards after the catch. KC already has a speedy receiver, he just can't catch the ball. Who are the best friends of a young QB? A good TE and a solid possession receiver who can get yards after the catch.

BTW Jason, the Chiefs stole a pretty good RB who can pass block and catch out of the backfield.

Tribal Warfare
05-01-2007, 07:02 AM
Who are the best friends of a young QB?


The O-Line, Trent can tell you that

InChiefsHell
05-01-2007, 07:04 AM
Holy crap...all this because we didn't take an OT early in the draft...other than that, what the hell else did everyone want? What are we supposed to do to improve our offense...draft a QB? A RB? A WR? We missed out on getting an OT...but other than that, what the hell was going to fix this offense in this draft?

This amazes me. As I see it, we have a question at the QB position, which was going to be the case regardless of the draft. We have a solid RB, with a solid (if un-injured) backup, plus the kid from Europe, plus the kid we drafted. We have a solid TE, and Dunn is still around to do that thang he does so well. We have a posession WR in Kennison, and now we just got a big strong over the middle guy in Bowe. We don't KNOW if Hannon or Webb will work out, but we know a hell of a lot more about them than we do about any other WR in the draft, and that's got to count for something...

...this is a stupid article on Jason's part. And he seemed to be making so much sense lately...

InChiefsHell
05-01-2007, 07:05 AM
Making draft selections in order to prevent current players from gaining leverage on contract negotiations is downright stupid. How does that improve the football team? Let's draft another RB in the 1st and a TE in the 2nd....there, all better.

I still don't understand the comparisons of Sylvester Morris to Bowe. Morris had injury issues which no one could have forseen. Perhaps the Chiefs should not select players when they have had a bust at that position. The same logic used by roulette players who believe a number is 'due'.

Speaking of Bowe. What is the deal with the "slow" tag? All he does is get open, catch the ball and get yards after the catch. KC already has a speedy receiver, he just can't catch the ball. Who are the best friends of a young QB? A good TE and a solid possession receiver who can get yards after the catch.

BTW Jason, the Chiefs stole a pretty good RB who can pass block and catch out of the backfield.

Indeed. He is this year's Hali...everyone talked shit about Hali too and ate their words...

tiptap
05-01-2007, 07:09 AM
This year's tackles were not that great, descent but not great. I'm glad we have waited to see if next years crop are better.

eazyb81
05-01-2007, 07:29 AM
Blah blah blah.....and if we reached on an olineman or WR in the 2nd, everyone would blame us for ignoring the D-line.

Weak article.

eazyb81
05-01-2007, 07:31 AM
Speaking of Bowe. What is the deal with the "slow" tag? All he does is get open, catch the ball and get yards after the catch. KC already has a speedy receiver, he just can't catch the ball. Who are the best friends of a young QB? A good TE and a solid possession receiver who can get yards after the catch.


LOL, exactly. When the hell did a 4.4 40 become slow? The haters are really reaching on this one.

Bowe is going to be fantastic if he stays healthy and we make an effort to get him the ball.

Chiefnj
05-01-2007, 07:33 AM
Whitlock's article does make sense. The problem was that KC had so many holes they couldn't fill them all.

InChiefsHell
05-01-2007, 07:35 AM
Whitlock's article does make sense. The problem was that KC had so many holes they couldn't fill them all.

His article would make sense if he agreed with your point. As it is, he's just bitching about stupid things that really couldn't be addressed in the draft. He's being a tool.

Chiefnj
05-01-2007, 07:36 AM
LOL, exactly. When the hell did a 4.4 40 become slow? The haters are really reaching on this one.

.

Bowe ran a 4.57 at the combine though. He isn't a burner.

Chiefnj
05-01-2007, 07:36 AM
His article would make sense if he agreed with your point. As it is, he's just bitching about stupid things that really couldn't be addressed in the draft. He's being a tool.

The Chiefs couldn't have addressed the OL or adding another weapon in rounds 2 or 3?

InChiefsHell
05-01-2007, 07:40 AM
They did add other weapons...2 on the DL to be exact...you know, the DL where we have had a need for the last...forever. Whoever was on the board was not who they were looking for. IMO, the only OT to go for in the draft was Staley, and they chose the WR skill position instead. Maybe a mistake, but certainly not a total disaster worthy of stupid drivel like this article from Whitlock.

eazyb81
05-01-2007, 07:40 AM
Bowe ran a 4.57 at the combine though. He isn't a burner.

Actually he ran a 4.51 at the combine, a 4.40 at his pro day.

He may not be a Ginn-like burner, but he is hardly slow.

Count Zarth
05-01-2007, 07:41 AM
Bowe ran a 4.57 at the combine though. He isn't a burner.

He ran a 4.4 at his pro day.

Futhermore, timed speeds are bullshit. Terrell Owens ran a 4.6 and was drafted in the third round. Bowe is almost the EXACT same type of wide receiver.

Does this look slow to you?

http://img248.imageshack.us/img248/5615/bowe2bo9vl0.gif (http://imageshack.us)

Messier
05-01-2007, 07:43 AM
The Chiefs couldn't have addressed the OL or adding another weapon in rounds 2 or 3?

Did you want another wr in round 2? And if we had taken a OT in round 2 we would have been reaching.

htismaqe
05-01-2007, 07:45 AM
Beautiful article!!!!!!!

Best Article I have read out of the draft.. best part was "Herm spends his free time fantasizing about 9-3 field-goal shootouts."

Spot on JW... :bravo:

ROFL

You might want to read the article completely before you jump to his defense...

Chiefnj
05-01-2007, 07:46 AM
He ran a 4.4 at his pro day.

Futhermore, timed speeds are bullshit. Terrell Owens ran a 4.6 and was drafted in the third round. Bowe is almost the EXACT same type of wide receiver.

Does this look slow to you?

http://img248.imageshack.us/img248/5615/bowe2bo9vl0.gif (http://imageshack.us)

The fact that #92 a big DL is keeping up with him, doesn't make him look fast.

You know that pro day speeds are a joke. Plus, I never said he was slow. He's got average speed. He's a possession receiver. TO comparisons are a tad bit premature.

Whitlock does bring up a valid point - it was the offense that failed in the playoffs. Whitlock thinks that they should have paid more attention to the OL and getting more offensive weapons. It's a valid point whether people want to admit it or not.

htismaqe
05-01-2007, 07:47 AM
The Chiefs couldn't have addressed the OL or adding another weapon in rounds 2 or 3?

With who?

htismaqe
05-01-2007, 07:48 AM
The fact that #92 a big DL is keeping up with him, doesn't make him look fast.

You know that pro day speeds are a joke. Plus, I never said he was slow. He's got average speed. He's a possession receiver. TO comparisons are a tad bit premature.

Whitlock does bring up a valid point - it was the offense that failed in the playoffs. Whitlock thinks that they should have paid more attention to the OL and getting more offensive weapons. It's a valid point whether people want to admit it or not.

Their biggest free agent acquisition was a left tackle. They DID address it, in the best way possible.

Count Zarth
05-01-2007, 07:50 AM
The fact that #92 a big DL is keeping up with him, doesn't make him look fast.

He's hardly keeping up with him.

TO comparisons are a tad bit premature.

No, they're not. Same type of receiver. 40 times are BULLSHIT. Anquan Boldin ran a 4.7.

Messier
05-01-2007, 07:51 AM
The fact that #92 a big DL is keeping up with him, doesn't make him look fast.

You know that pro day speeds are a joke. Plus, I never said he was slow. He's got average speed. He's a possession receiver. TO comparisons are a tad bit premature.

Whitlock does bring up a valid point - it was the offense that failed in the playoffs. Whitlock thinks that they should have paid more attention to the OL and getting more offensive weapons. It's a valid point whether people want to admit it or not.

I think then main problem in the playoff game, and I hate to say it, was Trent Green. He was awful in that game. And it's one of the reasons I'm not sad he's leaving.

Count Zarth
05-01-2007, 07:52 AM
I think then main problem in the playoff game, and I hate to say it, was Trent Green.

By hitting receivers in the hands over and over again? tk13 has made this point several times now. I think Trent would have been 11-14 at one point if his receivers hadn't stunk it up. And his offensive line.

Messier
05-01-2007, 07:57 AM
By hitting receivers in the hands over and over again? tk13 has made this point several times now. I think Trent would have been 11-14 at one point if his receivers hadn't stunk it up. And his offensive line.

Really? You thought he played well? Do you want him back?

Chiefnj
05-01-2007, 07:59 AM
I think then main problem in the playoff game, and I hate to say it, was Trent Green. He was awful in that game. And it's one of the reasons I'm not sad he's leaving.

Please explain how Tren't "awful" performance resulted in LJ having a bad day and not being able to break 40 yards.

el borracho
05-01-2007, 08:04 AM
1. We added a T in free-agency
2. Yes! We need help on the Oline but this draft sucked for Oline. After the top two Ts, the only thing we could have done is add more youthful question marks (which we did at the end of the draft) and, yes, Joe Staley is a question mark.
3. We have a lot of youthful question marks already on the roster.


All of these guys were born in the 80s:
Niswanger, 82
Pruneda, 83
Sampson, 81
Stallings, 83
Svitek, 82
Taylor, 84

p.s. I'm not sure why the author mentioned Kennison's age when our very first pick was a WR and all our other receivers are young.

Bowe, 84
Hannon, 84
Parker, 81
Webb, 82

p.p.s. Is anyone really arguing that we needed no help on the Dline? I can't believe it. Our Dline has been a wreck for years. Hopefully, we have finally fixed it.

Pushead2
05-01-2007, 08:05 AM
We couldn't have fixed everything in 1 draft. The problem with the Chiefs in the playoff game I still stand by it was the coaching. Poor choices and combined with the offense not producing. Hopefully with kennison , gonzo and Bowe we could have a descent receiving core.

Messier
05-01-2007, 08:05 AM
Please explain how Tren't "awful" performance resulted in LJ having a bad day and not being able to break 40 yards.

Oh the line played horribly too. But man you could just see Trent didn't have it, the last four games of the season you could see it.

Count Zarth
05-01-2007, 08:05 AM
Really? You thought he played well? Do you want him back?

I want him back and competing for the job. He wasn't the worst player in that playoff game by far.

htismaqe
05-01-2007, 08:07 AM
The problem with the playoff game was two-fold:

1) The Colt stacked the box. We TRIED to throw. The WR's couldn't catch a damn cold.

2) Herm crawled into his shell after that and ran Larry into 9-man fronts the rest of the game.

trndobrd
05-01-2007, 08:08 AM
Whitlock does bring up a valid point - it was the offense that failed in the playoffs. Whitlock thinks that they should have paid more attention to the OL and getting more offensive weapons. It's a valid point whether people want to admit it or not.

Paying more attention to the Offense is a valid point to make. I don't think anyone is disputing that. However, there are other areas that need help, and the Chiefs can only draft players that are on the board. Frankly, because of the reaching of the DV era, the Chiefs will need to string together 4-5 drafts like last year and this year, to really get what they need.

JW suggests that a RB should have been drafted because LJ has too much leverage in contract negotiations. That is just stupid. The draft should not be about ways to save the Hunt family money.

He doesn't have any ideas of who should have been drafted, apparently anyone who plays offense would have been OK. Again, the same kind of thinking of the DV era, someone, anyone...doesn't matter.

The Chiefs made the right move by drafting a 3rd down blocking/receiving back on the second day. Made an outstanding pick with Bowe in the 1st. Good choice in the 2nd, and may have gotten the steal of the draft in the 3rd (although they probably didn't expect to have that option)

So, basically JW's article can be summed up as "Chiefs should have picked different people, I have know idea who, but these people suck."

htismaqe
05-01-2007, 08:08 AM
Yes! We need help on the Oline but this draft sucked for Oline. After the top two Ts, the only thing we could have done is add more youthful question marks (which we did at the end of the draft) and, yes, Joe Staley is a question mark.

I've come to the conclusion that the "offensive line at all costs" people have their fingers in their ears. I would suggest you don't post this anymore, it's a waste of your time. If they haven't read this and digested it by now, they're not going to. They're not interested in reality.

Messier
05-01-2007, 08:09 AM
I want him back and competing for the job. He wasn't the worst player in that playoff game by far.
Why do you think the Chiefs don't want him back?
Really I want to know. Is it just to get younger or do they see the end of the line for Trent?

'Hamas' Jenkins
05-01-2007, 08:09 AM
Jesus Christ, the retardation of this article spawned some hellacious stupidity throughout this thread.

I guess we should have reached for a 4th round Tackle in Round 2 when our best d-lineman is going to miss a quarter of the season, and there is a player who is on the top of our board available at that position when we pick.

How is Samie Parker's speed working out for him?

trndobrd
05-01-2007, 08:11 AM
How is Samie Parker's speed working out for him?

He's getting open.

Messier
05-01-2007, 08:14 AM
Getting open has little to do with speed. It's route running and awareness.

Count Zarth
05-01-2007, 08:18 AM
He's getting open.

Not nearly enough.

PastorMikH
05-01-2007, 08:18 AM
I agree on the offense. I have been troubled for some time at our lack of concern for the offensive side. Other than Bowe, our best move to improve the O was to let Black go.

We need some O Linemen desparately. Also, if things go like they appear, we will have a career backup and a kid with no NFL game experience as our only QBs. We have 3 Probowl RBs, one with a HUGE ego and contract demands, one that can't stay healthy, and one that won't make up his mind if he wants to play or retire.

Granted, I like what Herm has done with the D, but I fear we are heading in the complete opposite direction that DV took us - all D, no O.

At this point, even with salary cap space that would be freed up with Green gone, who's out there that can be a legit upgrade on the OL? And if I'm over-reacting on our OL, someone explain to me how the OL will be solid the the players we have on the roster now.

trndobrd
05-01-2007, 08:19 AM
Not nearly enough.


Always the glass is half empty.

PastorMikH
05-01-2007, 08:20 AM
He's open when he drops the ball which lessens the chance for an INT.



Fixed your post.

:)

htismaqe
05-01-2007, 08:21 AM
I agree on the offense. I have been troubled for some time at our lack of concern for the offensive side. Other than Bowe, our best move to improve the O was to let Black go.

We need some O Linemen desparately. Also, if things go like they appear, we will have a career backup and a kid with no NFL game experience as our only QBs. We have 3 Probowl RBs, one with a HUGE ego and contract demands, one that can't stay healthy, and one that won't make up his mind if he wants to play or retire.

Granted, I like what Herm has done with the D, but I fear we are heading in the complete opposite direction that DV took us - all D, no O.

At this point, even with salary cap space that would be freed up with Green gone, who's out there that can be a legit upgrade on the OL? And if I'm over-reacting on our OL, someone explain to me how the OL will be solid the the players we have on the roster now.

Contrary to popular belief, DV didn't concentrate on the offense. 80% of all acquistion under DV was on the defensive side of the ball. He struck gold with Green, Holmes, and Roaf. The rest of his acquisitions were pretty mediocre, or worse.

el borracho
05-01-2007, 08:21 AM
I've come to the conclusion that the "offensive line at all costs" people have their fingers in their ears. I would suggest you don't post this anymore, it's a waste of your time. If they haven't read this and digested it by now, they're not going to. They're not interested in reality.
Well, the reality is we had more needs than picks. No matter what we drafted this team was still going to have holes. In fairness to the mob I guess we could have had one of the top two C prospects instead of McBride. Whatever. We have Niswanger and, anyway, I'm not going to cry about not getting a new C.

One thing that I haven't seen mentioned that really could have helped our draft look better would have been a 4th round pick as we could have gotten a decent G prospect there. How much better would our draft have looked if we had gotten Beekman in the 4th?

trndobrd
05-01-2007, 08:21 AM
Fixed your post.

:)


Sheesh...some people just demand everything from a player.

Count Zarth
05-01-2007, 08:21 AM
Always the glass is half empty.

With Parker? Yes (finally, I defended the guy longer than anyone).

Bowe will get open.

trndobrd
05-01-2007, 08:24 AM
Contrary to popular belief, DV didn't concentrate on the offense. 80% of all acquistion under DV was on the defensive side of the ball. He struck gold with Green, Holmes, and Roaf. The rest of his acquisitions were pretty mediocre, or worse.


The same "just get someone, anyone" attitude DV had on the defense, is what Whitlock is suggesting Herm do on offense.

philfree
05-01-2007, 08:24 AM
Their biggest free agent acquisition was a left tackle. They DID address it, in the best way possible.

How people miss this just makes me shake my head. I guess people think some rookie O linemen would put us over the top in 2007. They have the right to be wrong I guess. I mean I'm sure we could have filled the shoes of Roaf and Shields withh a couple of rooks.

PhilFree:arrow:

PastorMikH
05-01-2007, 08:26 AM
Oh the line played horribly too. But man you could just see Trent didn't have it, the last four games of the season you could see it.


This is a dead horse by now, but I'll still weigh in with an observation. When Huard threw the ball, the recievers made some spectacular catches. When Green threw the ball, they seemed to drop perfect catches. Don't get me wront, Green threw some bad throws. He may be through and it probably is time to move on, but no QB will be any good if the recievers drop balls that they should catch.

htismaqe
05-01-2007, 08:27 AM
Well, the reality is we had more needs than picks. No matter what we drafted this team was still going to have holes. In fairness to the mob I guess we could have had one of the top two C prospects instead of McBride. Whatever. We have Niswanger and, anyway, I'm not going to cry about not getting a new C.

One thing that I haven't seen mentioned that really could have helped our draft look better would have been a 4th round pick as we could have gotten a decent G prospect there. How much better would our draft have looked if we had gotten Beekman in the 4th?

McBride is going to start Day 1. Period. He may go back to the bench when Allen comes back, but he's going to contribute immediately.

On the other hand, Casey Wiegmann says he wants to play 3 more years. Why would we draft a slightly undersized center (Kalil) to replace a slightly undersized center that says he's not going anywhere?

trndobrd
05-01-2007, 08:27 AM
How people miss this just makes me shake my head. I guess people think some rookie O linemen would put us over the top in 2007. They have the right to be wrong I guess. I mean I'm sure we could have filled the shoes of Roaf and Shields withh a couple of rooks.

PhilFree:arrow:

But...but...but ....we should have drafted someone. The offense needs help. LJ is asking for too much money. We should have drafted a Pro-Bowl Offensive Tackle...or somebody.

siberian khatru
05-01-2007, 08:27 AM
Well, the reality is we had more needs than picks. No matter what we drafted this team was still going to have holes. In fairness to the mob I guess we could have had one of the top two C prospects instead of McBride. Whatever. We have Niswanger and, anyway, I'm not going to cry about not getting a new C.

One thing that I haven't seen mentioned that really could have helped our draft look better would have been a 4th round pick as we could have gotten a decent G prospect there. How much better would our draft have looked if we had gotten Beekman in the 4th?

Spot on. :clap:

PastorMikH
05-01-2007, 08:29 AM
Contrary to popular belief, DV didn't concentrate on the offense. 80% of all acquistion under DV was on the defensive side of the ball. He struck gold with Green, Holmes, and Roaf. The rest of his acquisitions were pretty mediocre, or worse.



True. However, looking at the people he put on the D side of the ball to evaluate talent, he was destined to fail on that side.

:)


What I see that makes me believe DV concentrated on the O is his constant lifting up of the O players (except for LJ), and his involvement with the O while (what appeared to be) putting the D in someone else's hands completely.

siberian khatru
05-01-2007, 08:30 AM
How people miss this just makes me shake my head. I guess people think some rookie O linemen would put us over the top in 2007. They have the right to be wrong I guess. I mean I'm sure we could have filled the shoes of Roaf and Shields withh a couple of rooks.

PhilFree:arrow:

They fear that McIntosh is barely an upgrade over Black. They may be right.

But who were we going to get that was going to beat him out this year? Staley? I highly, highly doubt that.

We'll try to get McIntosh's replacement next year.

donkhater
05-01-2007, 08:32 AM
Contrary to popular belief, DV didn't concentrate on the offense. 80% of all acquistion under DV was on the defensive side of the ball. He struck gold with Green, Holmes, and Roaf. The rest of his acquisitions were pretty mediocre, or worse.

I may be wrong on this, but I thought Casey, Waters, Dunn and Kennison all started playing when DV began.

Waters was probably already here, but I believe Dunn, Weigmann and Kennison were all aquisitions during the DV era. I wouldn't call any of them mediocre.

Even Derrick Blaylock was a solid draft choice under DV I believe.

All of his DEFENSIVE acquisitions stunk, save Derrick Johnson and Jared Allen

Fish
05-01-2007, 08:33 AM
I'm starting to get the feeling that the Chiefs don't think the OL is going to be nearly as bad as some fans think.

huskerdooz
05-01-2007, 08:35 AM
The one point I agree with JW is it would have been awful nice to grab Michael Bush in the 3rd rnd. Even if he would have to spend his rookie season on IR. He'd be the same kind of insurance for LJ as LJ was for Priest. As someone pointed out we are building for 08 and 09. To have the chance to grab a top 10 talent at RB in the 3rd doesn't come along very often especially when the alternative was to take another DT with suspect work habits.

siberian khatru
05-01-2007, 08:35 AM
I'm starting to get the feeling that the Chiefs don't think the OL is going to be nearly as bad as some fans think.

I just think they know their options are limited at this point.

el borracho
05-01-2007, 08:35 AM
McBride is going to start Day 1. Period. He may go back to the bench when Allen comes back, but he's going to contribute immediately.

On the other hand, Casey Wiegmann says he wants to play 3 more years. Why would we draft a slightly undersized center (Kalil) to replace a slightly undersized center that says he's not going anywhere?
You and I agree. I'm not upset that we passed on the Cs. I was just pointing out that we could have had one of the top C prospects in the 2nd round. It is a bit curious to me that we chose Turk over some of the other DEs but, really, what the heck do I know? The only thing I lament about this draft is not having a 4th round pick.

htismaqe
05-01-2007, 08:36 AM
I may be wrong on this, but I thought Casey, Waters, Dunn and Kennison all started playing when DV began.

Waters was probably already here, but I believe Dunn, Weigmann and Kennison were all aquisitions during the DV era. I wouldn't call any of them mediocre.

Even Derrick Blaylock was a solid draft choice under DV I believe.

All of his DEFENSIVE acquisitions stunk, save Derrick Johnson and Jared Allen

I believe Waters was already here. The other 3, yeah, you're right. But look at that list. Where is the youth?

And yes, Blaylock was mediocre.

Fish
05-01-2007, 08:37 AM
The one point I agree with JW is it would have been awful nice to grab Michael Bush in the 3rd rnd. Even if he would have to spend his rookie season on IR. He'd be the same kind of insurance for LJ as LJ was for Priest. As someone pointed out we are building for 08 and 09. To have the chance to grab a top 10 talent at RB in the 3rd doesn't come along very often especially when the alternative was to take another DT with suspect work habits.

Some would argue that we got top 10 talent in Tyler.... remains to be seen, but I'm glad we went with DL....

el borracho
05-01-2007, 08:39 AM
Does anyone really want Staley more than Bowe? I don't.

Chiefnj
05-01-2007, 08:47 AM
3 OL taken between McBride and Tyler were:

Kalil, Marten and Harris.

OL taken after Tyler and into the 4th:

Yanda, Alleman, Henderson, Ramirez and Barbre.

donkhater
05-01-2007, 08:49 AM
The only difference in this team's offense and the one in the DV era center around 2 BIG elements:

The offensive line
The offensive coordinator

If the offensive line is good enough, then KC has shown that you can have one of the more prolific passing attacks without top notch talent at QB and WR.

Solari is not Saunders, nor did he have the luxury of the offensive line that Saunders had. However, I think the line AND Herm dictated that abomination we witnessed in Indy last year. And if Herm wants to get his team to win on the road, he is going to have to call a game like he wants to win. I was at that game and until KC was down by three scores, they were not playing to win, but rather not to lose.

That, in a nutshell, is Martyball. Until this team stips playing like high schoolers on the road, they ain't gonna be SH!T.

huskerdooz
05-01-2007, 08:58 AM
Actually he ran a 4.51 at the combine, a 4.40 at his pro day.

He may not be a Ginn-like burner, but he is hardly slow.

Actually that's not quite accurate.

AGILITY TESTS
Campus: 4.48 in the 40-yard dash Ö 385-pound bench press Ö 480-pound squat Ö 286-pound power clean Ö 33 5/8-inch arm length Ö 9 7/8-inch hands Ö Right-handed Ö Wears contacts Ö 15/37 Wonderlic score.

Combine: 4.57 in the 40-yard dash Ö 1.64 10-yard dash Ö 2.69 20-yard dash Ö 4.35 20-yard shuttle Ö 6.81 three-cone drill Ö 33-inch vertical jump Ö 10-foot-5 broad jump.

http://www.sportsline.com/nfl/players/draft/406856

Correct me if I'm wrong but I believe that 4.48 at his pro day is alot closer to 4.50 then it is to 4.40.

Brock
05-01-2007, 09:00 AM
The fact that staley went in the first round should tip you off that this wasn't the year to be depending on the draft for offensive linemen.

Mecca
05-01-2007, 09:02 AM
Herm has already done more to add a YOUNG offensive playmaker than DV ever did.......

This spot we're in is every bit as much as DV's fault as anyones with his loyalty to veteran players it made our team old as hell.

htismaqe
05-01-2007, 09:04 AM
The one point I agree with JW is it would have been awful nice to grab Michael Bush in the 3rd rnd. Even if he would have to spend his rookie season on IR. He'd be the same kind of insurance for LJ as LJ was for Priest. As someone pointed out we are building for 08 and 09. To have the chance to grab a top 10 talent at RB in the 3rd doesn't come along very often especially when the alternative was to take another DT with suspect work habits.

Several scouts have said since the draft that they're not 100% sure Bush will EVER be 100% again...

htismaqe
05-01-2007, 09:07 AM
3 OL taken between McBride and Tyler were:

Kalil, Marten and Harris.

OL taken after Tyler and into the 4th:

Yanda, Alleman, Henderson, Ramirez and Barbre.

Of the first 3, only Harris likely would have seen the field Day 1, and that assumes Chris Terry gets suspended.

Of the second group, all of them have question marks.

You can't address every position of need. We addressed the biggest one on defense.

Reerun_KC
05-01-2007, 09:28 AM
Herm has already done more to add a YOUNG offensive playmaker than DV ever did.......

This spot we're in is every bit as much as DV's fault as anyones with his loyalty to veteran players it made our team old as hell.

Isnt that the truth.... Why do you think DV left? His team was old as hell...

Herm has brought an ass load of young and hungry talent into KC in his short stint. Now if Herm could just out what the F*CK the endzones are for, KC might have something to build on..

Mecca
05-01-2007, 09:30 AM
Before I fully judge Herm as our coach I want to see him coach with his guys and his players, last year was him coaching DV's old team missing key pieces.

I already know this, I like his player decisions better than DV's.

trndobrd
05-01-2007, 09:33 AM
Herm has brought an ass load of young and hungry talent into KC in his short stint.


..and isn't afraid to put them on the field.

Reerun_KC
05-01-2007, 09:36 AM
..and isn't afraid to put them on the field.


Which is nice, I was so tired of seeing Hicks sorry ass on the team... Today is a great day to be a Chiefs fan...

KCChiefsFan88
05-01-2007, 10:12 AM
Whitlock is repeating what I have been harping on all offseason that the Chiefs have done virtually nothing to upgrade the primary reason for the team's downfall in the playoffs which is their offense and if anything the offense is now WORSE than the offense that took the field in that playoffs game vs the Colts.

KCChiefsFan88
05-01-2007, 10:15 AM
I already know this, I like his player decisions better than DV's.

Hmmm let's see...

Vermeil's player decisions= trade for Trent Green, sign Priest Holmes, sign Eddie Kennison, turn Dante Hall into an Az Hakim-like weapon, sign Casey Weigmann, give Brian Waters the opportunity to be one of the best guards in the league

Gee that is so terrible

ARROW2
05-01-2007, 10:18 AM
Hmmm let's see...

Vermeil's player decisions= trade for Trent Green, sign Priest Holmes, sign Eddie Kennison, turn Dante Hall into an Az Hakim-like weapon, sign Casey Weigmann, give Brian Waters the opportunity to be one of the best guards in the league

Gee that is so terrible





Keep Greg Robinson and ignore the defense..........



Playoff records in K.C.



Herm 0-1
DV 0-1




Everybody Shut the F up!!!!

'Hamas' Jenkins
05-01-2007, 10:18 AM
Whitlock is repeating what I have been harping on all offseason that the Chiefs have done virtually nothing to upgrade the primary reason for the team's downfall in the playoffs which is their offense and if anything the offense is now WORSE than the offense that took the field in that playoffs game vs the Colts.

McIntosh, although an average LT, is worlds better than Black.

Welbourne will be a better RG than Shields, who was a shell of his former self.

Bowe is already much much better than Parker.

Where's this decline, again?

Reerun_KC
05-01-2007, 10:21 AM
Whitlock is repeating what I have been harping on all offseason that the Chiefs have done virtually nothing to upgrade the primary reason for the team's downfall in the playoffs which is their offense and if anything the offense is now WORSE than the offense that took the field in that playoffs game vs the Colts.


What? You have to score points to win? Well that sure worked well under DV didnt it?

Herm know the secret to winning.. You run the ball, control the clock, punt, play defense and try not to outscore your opponents on the road...

DV and scoring points.. PFFF! Whatever.... Bring on run, run, incomplete, punt and lets play defense!

Brock
05-01-2007, 10:23 AM
Hmmm let's see...

Vermeil's player decisions= trade for Trent Green, sign Priest Holmes, sign Eddie Kennison, turn Dante Hall into an Az Hakim-like weapon, sign Casey Weigmann, give Brian Waters the opportunity to be one of the best guards in the league

Gee that is so terrible

Too bad Vermeil was horrible at drafting players. That's why this team is old and/or untalented at most of the key positions. He actually went 5 years without addressing Willie Roaf's eventual retirement, he didn't even want Larry Johnson, he drafted losers like Samie Parker, Eric Downing, Eddie Freeman, etc. If you want to give him his share of the credit for what little the team did accomplish, let's give him his share of the blame for what they didn't accomplish and should have.

Reerun_KC
05-01-2007, 10:27 AM
Too bad Vermeil was horrible at drafting players. That's why this team is old and/or untalented at most of the key positions. He actually went 5 years without addressing Willie Roaf's eventual retirement, he didn't even want Larry Johnson, he drafted losers like Samie Parker, Eric Downing, Eddie Freeman, etc. If you want to give him his share of the credit for what little the team did accomplish, let's give him his share of the blame for what they didn't accomplish and should have.


Bingo, I really dont think DV was interested in anything but proving he could mastermind an offense as explosive as the one he and Martz put together in STL....

He lack of vision for the future is why we are rebuilding from scratch with a coach that is 100% perfect for aquiring young talent and getting them on the field... But a 100% dufus when it comes to game planning and finding the endzone...

htismaqe
05-01-2007, 10:39 AM
if anything the offense is now WORSE than the offense that took the field in that playoffs game vs the Colts.

ROFL ROFL ROFL ROFL ROFL

htismaqe
05-01-2007, 10:42 AM
Bingo, I really dont think DV was interested in anything but proving he could mastermind an offense as explosive as the one he and Martz put together in STL....

He lack of vision for the future is why we are rebuilding from scratch with a coach that is 100% perfect for aquiring young talent and getting them on the field... But a 100% dufus when it comes to game planning and finding the endzone...

Let me throw you a crazy scenario here.

We all know that talent wins in the NFL. Dynasties are built around both talent AND coaching, but some damn dumb coaches have won a Super Bowl BECAUSE of talent - see Barry Switzer.

Is it possible that Herm could acquire so much talent that not even he could screw it up?

'Hamas' Jenkins
05-01-2007, 10:50 AM
Let me throw you a crazy scenario here.

We all know that talent wins in the NFL. Dynasties are built around both talent AND coaching, but some damn dumb coaches have won a Super Bowl BECAUSE of talent - see Barry Switzer.

Is it possible that Herm could acquire so much talent that not even he could screw it up?

No. Conservatism in coaching negates talent even more than general ineptness.

See: Schottenheimer, MartŪn.

htismaqe
05-01-2007, 10:54 AM
No. Conservatism in coaching negates talent even more than general ineptness.

See: Schottenheimer, MartŪn.

Maybe so.

It was worth a thought.

donkhater
05-01-2007, 10:56 AM
No. Conservatism in coaching negates talent even more than general ineptness.

See: Schottenheimer, MartŪn.

Abso-freaking-lutely.

Herm can talk all he wants about his team learning to win on the road. Until he and his coaches stop coaching scared, it doesn't matter who is on the field.

'Hamas' Jenkins
05-01-2007, 10:56 AM
Maybe so.

It was worth a thought.

Yeah. I mean if you think about it, Switzer, Billick, George Seifert (probably the best example) were/are inept coaches, yet still had a lot of success.

Chief Faithful
05-01-2007, 10:57 AM
Well, the reality is we had more needs than picks. No matter what we drafted this team was still going to have holes. In fairness to the mob I guess we could have had one of the top two C prospects instead of McBride. Whatever. We have Niswanger and, anyway, I'm not going to cry about not getting a new C.

One thing that I haven't seen mentioned that really could have helped our draft look better would have been a 4th round pick as we could have gotten a decent G prospect there. How much better would our draft have looked if we had gotten Beekman in the 4th?

I agree with all your sediments except I look at Bennet as that 4th pick, which also makes this draft look better. What would have made this draft better is if CP had successfully traded Green or Wesley for an additional first day pick to be used on OL.

Overall, I was pleased with this draft. They filled the remaining holes on the defensive front 7, added much needed depth and youth at RB and TE, and finally addressed the WR position (after how many years?). There was just too many needs to address everything in one draft. Maybe next year they can take care of CB, QB, and OL.

'Hamas' Jenkins
05-01-2007, 10:59 AM
I agree with all your sediments except I look at Bennet as that 4th pick, which also makes this draft look better. What would have made this draft better is if CP had successfully traded Green or Wesley for an additional first day pick to be used on OL.

Overall, I was pleased with this draft. They filled the remaining holes on the defensive front 7, added much needed depth and youth at RB and TE, and finally addressed the WR position (after how many years?). There was just too many needs to address everything in one draft. Maybe next year they can take care of CB, QB, and OL.

If the draft were as long today as it were in the 50's, even then Wesley wouldn't be worth a pick in the first half of the draft.

I doubt he makes another NFL roster. He's too goddamned stupid to play his position, which is pretty sad given what MENSA members like Ed Reed are able to do.

chiefsfan1963
05-01-2007, 11:10 AM
I agree with the spirit of the article. Our O needs a lot work and given the moves of late it is clear we will drop further in league rankings probably below Top 20.

Hopefully we can find some major help in the free agency undrafted rookies group that can fill the holes until next year's draft and free agency market.

WHo knows what type of team we will field this year, but appears right now that a true rebuilding season is what we will witness. Which means that we could finally have a long awaited Top 10 or 15 pick in next year's draft with at least 7 picks one in each round. If we can get a extra 3rd or 4th rounder for Trent that will be a huge bonus.

Even with all this I don't see this team fully turning around until Herm and CP leave the building. I look at Sean Payton, the 2nd year HC of the Saints and what he accomplished in his first year and I realize how much this team is underachieving. After the abysmal performance in the playoffs last year I realize how far we have dropped since the departure of DV.

Yes the D has improved, but the tradeoff is not worth it.

keg in kc
05-01-2007, 11:18 AM
When you have 7 picks (and really, only the first 3-4 rounds count, in my book, and we didn't have a 4th), and absolutely no control over what other teams take, you can only do so much. Like it or not.

And I can guarantee you this: if we'd taken Staley or another OT, we'd be seeing the same article, but it would be about how we'd reached for a tackle and neglected necessary defensive picks.

In the end, this all boils down to what Vermeil did from '01 to '05. It's going to take 3-4 years to recover from that, because there is not a core of young talent on the roster. We have very few homegrown players.

htismaqe
05-01-2007, 11:27 AM
I agree with the spirit of the article. Our O needs a lot work and given the moves of late it is clear we will drop further in league rankings probably below Top 20.

Hopefully we can find some major help in the free agency undrafted rookies group that can fill the holes until next year's draft and free agency market.

WHo knows what type of team we will field this year, but appears right now that a true rebuilding season is what we will witness. Which means that we could finally have a long awaited Top 10 or 15 pick in next year's draft with at least 7 picks one in each round. If we can get a extra 3rd or 4th rounder for Trent that will be a huge bonus.

Even with all this I don't see this team fully turning around until Herm and CP leave the building. I look at Sean Payton, the 2nd year HC of the Saints and what he accomplished in his first year and I realize how much this team is underachieving. After the abysmal performance in the playoffs last year I realize how far we have dropped since the departure of DV.

Yes the D has improved, but the tradeoff is not worth it.

There was no trade-off. This aging offense was ALREADY on it's last legs before Herm got here.

Sean Payton's team has A LOT of drafted talent left over from the previous regime. Herm got NONE of that. He got several guys over 35...

carlos3652
05-01-2007, 11:29 AM
After the abysmal performance in the playoffs last year I realize how far we have dropped since the departure of DV.


LOL... 1 Playoff game (0-1) in 5 years and the worst defense in the NFL through those years...

I dont think we have the worst offense in the nfl, and we have already been to a playoff game with Herm... How have we dropped so far since DV???

I understand that the Offense isnt the same, and it probably never will be, especially when you lose Hall Of Famers....

Time to rebuild... and Herm is the guy to do it right...

Chiefnj
05-01-2007, 11:30 AM
Bad first round draft picks set teams back 3-4 years.

To make up for Sims and Siavii Herm has had to bring in 5 guys - Reed, Edwards, Boone, McBride, and Tyler.

keg in kc
05-01-2007, 11:32 AM
Frankly, the team may have overachieved to hit 9-7 last year, with the injuries on the offensive line.

I liked Vermeil when he was here, and still like him, but damn if he didn't leave this team in even worse shape than he found it. And that's saying something when you look at the drafts from before he got here.

We've probably lost a decade of Chiefs football to bad drafts, essentially from one head coach, although the decline started in the mid-90's.

Think about that.

A whole decade.

Chiefnj
05-01-2007, 11:44 AM
Frankly, the team may have overachieved to hit 9-7 last year, with the injuries on the offensive line.

I liked Vermeil when he was here, and still like him, but damn if he didn't leave this team in even worse shape than he found it. And that's saying something when you look at the drafts from before he got here.

We've probably lost a decade of Chiefs football to bad drafts, essentially from one head coach, although the decline started in the mid-90's.

Think about that.

A whole decade.

I think 1996 was the last excellent draft in KC. 1997 they got Tony g, but that was about it. Since then it has been poor to average. Plus, when you have a lot coaching changes you get more turnover and it is difficult to tell if players would have developed or not.

htismaqe
05-01-2007, 11:50 AM
To make up for Sims and Siavii

You forgot about Freeman, he was also a 2nd rounder.

And Eric Downing. He was technically a 3rd, but he was our first pick that year.

keg in kc
05-01-2007, 11:50 AM
I'd agree with that.

Although I think you could even argue that the '96 draft wasn't more than average, itself. Woods was never a legitimate pro bowl calibre player, but he did start, so that's a success. Tongue was shipped off relatively quickly. Browning was a career complimentary player, but at least he spent his career here. Horn did nothing here. Donnie Edwards (who I've never been a fan of) was probably the best of the bunch, and he was shipped off, as well.

The thing that gives me hope is that 3-4 years of good drafting can build the foundation for a decade of success. Hopefully last year was the beginning of that.

chiefsfan1963
05-01-2007, 12:10 PM
No questions all you guys have good points against DV tenure here, but I believe CP should get more of the criticism and the responsibility during those 5 years. I truly believe this franchise will truly be better off with new blood in the Front Office. The right GM could have enhanced DV strength's by not letting his weaknesseses get in the way of him bringing a Championship or 2 to KC. A better GM and his staff would have done better in the drafting the right players and forecasting our needs due to aging players. If I was a GM the past 5 years for KC I would have done what ever I could do to maintain the finest OL in the league. Each of my line man would be evaluated in terms probability of retiring or being injured, and I would have been constantly filling the well with top draft prospects and free agency moves. Some one like Roaf and Shields could have easily retired 3 years ago given their age. I would be paranoid after I had lineman more than 6 years that possiblity of retirement could happen at any time no matter what they say.

I'm sorry but the GM and his Front Office bare most of the responsibility here not DV. DV brought us the finest O this franchise has ever seen, and all we needed was a Top 20 D and we would have at least 1 SB during his tenure. We would have been better off with a GM who has a sense urgency and something to prove rather than a GM who has been here for 20 years and is an OLD DOG and doesn't want to learn new tricks or shake the boat.

Chiefs Pantalones
05-01-2007, 12:13 PM
He ran a 4.4 at his pro day.

Futhermore, timed speeds are bullshit. Terrell Owens ran a 4.6 and was drafted in the third round. Bowe is almost the EXACT same type of wide receiver.

Does this look slow to you?

http://img248.imageshack.us/img248/5615/bowe2bo9vl0.gif (http://imageshack.us)

Do you have anymore highlight gifs of Bowe?

Chiefnj
05-01-2007, 12:13 PM
DV built a great offense through free agency and trade acquisitions. He built a poor defense through the draft and free agency. The end result after 5 years was an old offense that needed to be rebuilt and a semi old defense that needs to be replaced.

The only plus side to Herm at the moment is that the D he is building is being built through the draft so it will still be relatively young in a few years when he is run out of town for not being able to build an O.

keg in kc
05-01-2007, 12:14 PM
I don't have a problem with holding Peterson responsible for the failure of his head coaches. He never should've been granted this last extension, which he received following a losing season. Which means, in fact, that Lamar Hunt was ultimately responsible for the bad drafting, if we're going to just keep passing the buck up the ladder.

Beyond that, if Peterson gets the blame for the bad draft, then he gets the credits for the good ones. Everyone seems to wants to give Herm credit for last year.

Vermeil gave us nothing but a hand job, and a lot of people (myself included) fell for it. My own opinion is that he and Al Saunders were more interested in proving themselves the real masterminds behind St. Louis' offensive explosion, and because of that the total focus of this franchise during his tenure was statistics and record-breaking. Even if that came at the expense of success, be it short- or long-term.

That, in the end, is the Vermeil legacy. And it's taking years to recover from it.

And I do think you can hold Carl responsible for that. Since he hired the guy. But it doesn't change the fact that Vermeil was what he was, and left the team as he did.

Coogs
05-01-2007, 12:18 PM
DV built a great offense through free agency and trade acquisitions. He built a poor defense through the draft and free agency. The end result after 5 years was an old offense that needed to be rebuilt and a semi old defense that needs to be replaced.

The only plus side to Herm at the moment is that the D he is building is being built through the draft so it will still be relatively young in a few years when he is run out of town for not being able to build an O.

Don't forget to include Gun along with DV on assembling that defense. Gun's shopping lis of players is eating up cap space, and not doing much in return.

Chiefnj
05-01-2007, 12:18 PM
That, in the end, is the Vermeil legacy.

I think the major lesson from Vermeil was "be careful who you name as your coordinators." Vermeil didn't call the shots on defense. He trusted his coordinators. He delegated the defensive decision making. He gave them the authority to bring in the players they wanted and Carl delivered them. There is nothing wrong with that, as long as you've hired the right guy for the job.

That's where I think Herm is going wrong as well. Keeping Gunther and hiring Solari are questionable choices.

keg in kc
05-01-2007, 12:20 PM
I think the major lesson from Vermeil was "be careful who you name as your coordinators." Vermeil didn't call the shots on defense. He trusted his coordinators. He delegated the defensive decision making. He gave them the authority to bring in the players they wanted and Carl delivered them. There is nothing wrong with that, as long as you've hired the right guy for the job.

That's where I think Herm is going wrong as well. Keeping Gunther and hiring Solari are questionable choices.A valid point.

It wasn't just coordinators, either. Because Vermeil and those coordinators brought in a whole network of assistant coaches and players that further set the franchise back.

The one difference we're seeing, a very important one, is that performance seems to carry more weight now than familiarity. At least as far as the players are concerned.

KCChiefsFan88
05-01-2007, 12:22 PM
Welbourne will be a better RG than Shields, who was a shell of his former self.

That is a joke right?

htismaqe
05-01-2007, 12:23 PM
No questions all you guys have good points against DV tenure here, but I believe CP should get more of the criticism and the responsibility during those 5 years. I truly believe this franchise will truly be better off with new blood in the Front Office. The right GM could have enhanced DV strength's by not letting his weaknesseses get in the way of him bringing a Championship or 2 to KC. A better GM and his staff would have done better in the drafting the right players and forecasting our needs due to aging players. If I was a GM the past 5 years for KC I would have done what ever I could do to maintain the finest OL in the league. Each of my line man would be evaluated in terms probability of retiring or being injured, and I would have been constantly filling the well with top draft prospects and free agency moves. Some one like Roaf and Shields could have easily retired 3 years ago given their age. I would be paranoid after I had lineman more than 6 years that possiblity of retirement could happen at any time no matter what they say.

I'm sorry but the GM and his Front Office bare most of the responsibility here not DV. DV brought us the finest O this franchise has ever seen, and all we needed was a Top 20 D and we would have at least 1 SB during his tenure. We would have been better off with a GM who has a sense urgency and something to prove rather than a GM who has been here for 20 years and is an OLD DOG and doesn't want to learn new tricks or shake the boat.

Blah, blah, blah.

Vermeil gets 100% of the credit for the offense and Carl Peterson gets 100% of the blame for the defense, according to you.

Coogs
05-01-2007, 12:26 PM
I think the major lesson from Vermeil was "be careful who you name as your coordinators." Vermeil didn't call the shots on defense. He trusted his coordinators. He delegated the defensive decision making. He gave them the authority to bring in the players they wanted and Carl delivered them. There is nothing wrong with that, as long as you've hired the right guy for the job.

That's where I think Herm is going wrong as well. Keeping Gunther and hiring Solari are questionable choices.


Right on cue!


:clap: :clap: :clap:

htismaqe
05-01-2007, 12:26 PM
I don't have a problem with holding Peterson responsible for the failure of his head coaches. He never should've been granted this last extension, which he received following a losing season. Which means, in fact, that Lamar Hunt was ultimately responsible for the bad drafting, if we're going to just keep passing the buck up the ladder.

Beyond that, if Peterson gets the blame for the bad draft, then he gets the credits for the good ones. Everyone seems to wants to give Herm credit for last year.

Vermeil gave us nothing but a hand job, and a lot of people (myself included) fell for it. My own opinion is that he and Al Saunders were more interested in proving themselves the real masterminds behind St. Louis' offensive explosion, and because of that the total focus of this franchise during his tenure was statistics and record-breaking. Even if that came at the expense of success, be it short- or long-term.

That, in the end, is the Vermeil legacy. And it's taking years to recover from it.

And I do think you can hold Carl responsible for that. Since he hired the guy. But it doesn't change the fact that Vermeil was what he was, and left the team as he did.

You know what, I just had an epiphany.

We all know about Vermeil and his loyalty. We know how much he values those around him.

It's quite possible that his 5 years here, with the record-setting offense and all of the crap that came with it, was nothing more than a JOB INTERVIEW for Al Saunders.

KCChiefsFan88
05-01-2007, 12:26 PM
There was no trade-off. This aging offense was ALREADY on it's last legs before Herm got here.

Sean Payton's team has A LOT of drafted talent left over from the previous regime. Herm got NONE of that. He got several guys over 35...

Herm and the Chiefs had a realistic chance at drafting Brady Quinn, who IMO is another Trent Green-type QB and didn't aggressively pursue that opportunity.

You need a legit QBOTF to begin a youth movement on offense and right now the Chiefs don't have one on their roster. (Keyword is LEGIT which would disqualify Brodie Blundin-Barnes-Croyle)

htismaqe
05-01-2007, 12:28 PM
That's where I think Herm is going wrong as well. Keeping Gunther and hiring Solari are questionable choices.

In hindsight, keeping Solari looks like a mistake. But EVERYBODY here was interested in maintaining the Coryell offense and Solari offered that. In fact, there was a great many people here suggesting that Saunders should be the HC and Solari the OC.

Keeping Gunther was more than a "questionable" choice in my opinion.

Chiefs Pantalones
05-01-2007, 12:28 PM
What would you guys say if someone compared Bowe to Lake Dawson?

htismaqe
05-01-2007, 12:28 PM
Herm and the Chiefs had a realistic chance at drafting Brady Quinn, who IMO is another Trent Green-type QB and didn't aggressively pursue that opportunity.

You need a legit QBOTF to begin a youth movement on offense and right now the Chiefs don't have one on their roster. (Keyword is LEGIT which would disqualify Brodie Blundin-Barnes-Croyle)

Brady Quinn isn't one either.

Coogs
05-01-2007, 12:28 PM
Herm and the Chiefs had a realistic chance at drafting Brady Quinn, who IMO is another Trent Green-type QB and didn't aggressively pursue that opportunity.

You need a legit QBOTF to begin a youth movement on offense and right now the Chiefs don't have one on their roster. (Keyword is LEGIT which would disqualify Brodie Blundin-Barnes-Croyle)

This is just my opinion, but I am glad we didn't go for Quinn. I would like to see what we have in Croyle this season. If he can not beat out Huard, that will tell us a lot. And if he does beat out Huard and does not perform, we will be in the hunt to get Brian Brohm, who I think will be better than both of the QB's taken in round 1 this year.

keg in kc
05-01-2007, 12:29 PM
It's quite possible that his 5 years here, with the record-setting offense and all of the crap that came with it, was nothing more than a JOB INTERVIEW for Al Saunders.If it was, then Al Saunders must be really, really bad one-on-one, since he's still coordinating.

'Hamas' Jenkins
05-01-2007, 12:29 PM
That is a joke right?

Will Shields was a 34 year old guard who gave up six sacks and battled chronic back problems.

It's not a decline.

'Hamas' Jenkins
05-01-2007, 12:31 PM
You know what, I just had an epiphany.

We all know about Vermeil and his loyalty. We know how much he values those around him.

It's quite possible that his 5 years here, with the record-setting offense and all of the crap that came with it, was nothing more than a JOB INTERVIEW for Al Saunders.

Even I'm not that cynical. Wow :)

HolyHandgernade
05-01-2007, 12:31 PM
Well, here's my take, and as some of you know, I predicted a 5-11 to 6-10 season for us before the draft.

I was actually quite pleased. My feeling is that the thinking goes along these lines:

1. Our defense is closer to being an elite unit than our offense is.
2. Our offense needs a serious upgrade at either WR or OL

So the Chiefs use their #1 on the best offensive player, whether it be WR or OL in their estimation, and then do what they think is necessary to potentially bump the defense into that elite range (top 8). Since the offense is going to have some growing pains anyway, their best chance for success rides on the defense.

Although they won't say it publically, privately, I think they know this is going to be a rough year regardless of what strategy they employed in this draft. This means they might be drafting high next year and you are much more likely to get that impact OL or CB at the top of a draft as opposed to the bottom where you can still get a quality WR. Add in another free agent and the Chiefs look to be contending again after a short dropoff (unlike the catastrophic ones the Chargers and Raiders went through).

I prefer to trust the Herm associated draft team. Last year's draft I thought was really good:

1 20(20) Tamba Hali DE Penn State
2 22(54) Bernard Pollard S Purdue
3 21(85) Brodie Croyle QB Alabama
5 21(154) Marcus Maxey CB Miami (FL)
6 17(186) Tre Stallings OG Mississippi State
6 21(190) Jeff Webb WR San Diego State
7 20(228) Jarrad Page S UCLA

I'm sorry, but that's throwing darts right there, especially if Brodie pans out. I also think that we can do a good job of developing and teaching the offensive line, especially if we avoid the injuries and give it a chance to gell. So, it may not be as bad as people think. Certainly not as good as it was, but how many offensive lines boast three pro bowlers (two of which are possible HOF'ers)?

I hate to say it, but I may be hedging from my initial prediction. I still think our schedule is a killer for this particular team, but my long term view of this team is actually improving.

-HH

SNR
05-01-2007, 12:47 PM
Herm and the Chiefs had a realistic chance at drafting Brady Quinn, who IMO is another Trent Green-type QB and didn't aggressively pursue that opportunity.

You need a legit QBOTF to begin a youth movement on offense and right now the Chiefs don't have one on their roster. (Keyword is LEGIT which would disqualify Brodie Blundin-Barnes-Croyle)You're FOS. You've seen Croyle play HOW many times? Chiefs fans know nothing about what Croyle will do in the NFL at this point. Especially a dumbass like you.

Why is Quinn "legit"? Because he was drafted in the first round? Ask the Packers if Aaron Rodgers is still a "legit" QB. How about Kyle Boller in Baltimore? Eli Manning? Hell, even guys like Leftwich and Grossman aren't exactly appetizing QBs in this league.

Your hate for Herm is built on nothing but your own arrogance. You think you know everything, but you actually know nothing. At all.

htismaqe
05-01-2007, 12:50 PM
If it was, then Al Saunders must be really, really bad one-on-one, since he's still coordinating.

It makes the Vermeil years even more of a failure.

tk13
05-01-2007, 12:58 PM
The real problem here is Jared Allen's selfishness and inability to call a cab makes it so we did have more work to do on the D-line. We have to go the first four games without him, and three of those are on the road, I really think we needed as much D-line help as O-line help.

Reerun_KC
05-01-2007, 03:00 PM
Your hate for Herm is built on nothing but your own arrogance. You think you know everything, but you actually know nothing. At all.


Hey wait one freaking minute SNR!

I hate Herm more than any jackass on this message board...

Just wanted to make that clear...

Carrry on!

Reerun_KC
05-01-2007, 03:03 PM
It makes the Vermeil years even more of a failure.


I dont know if I would call them a failure Htismaqe.. He did fill the stands with his high flying scoring offense and DIII Defense...

I am sure people will come to see Herms Top Ranked Defense carry this team while our Offense makes Marty's look like the second coming of the 99 Rams..

Butts in the seats baby.....

the Talking Can
05-01-2007, 03:05 PM
They should have taken an offensive tackle in the second round. Who? I donít know. If there was no tackle worthy of a second-round pick, Iíd have taken another receiver. In the third round, they should have selected Louisville running back Michael Bush, a sure-fire top-15 pick had he not broken his leg. The Raiders took Bush with the first pick of the fourth round. He might be the steal of the draft.


The single dumbest paragraph ever written about sports.

Thanks for letting Nick Athan off the hook you fat retard.

htismaqe
05-01-2007, 03:13 PM
I dont know if I would call them a failure Htismaqe.. He did fill the stands with his high flying scoring offense and DIII Defense...

I am sure people will come to see Herms Top Ranked Defense carry this team while our Offense makes Marty's look like the second coming of the 99 Rams..

Butts in the seats baby.....

I'll make that judgement AFTER Herm fails, IF he fails at all.

beer bacon
05-01-2007, 03:15 PM
who? Ryan ****ing Kalil in the 2nd Round.

Casey Wiegmann Version 2.0 would be great. This is especially true when you consider how in-love Herm is with Wiegmann.

Coach
05-01-2007, 04:26 PM
It appears Croyle is going to get Schottenheimered, which is quarterback death caused by neglect.

LMAO

Other than that, that's the only thing that interested me.

Anyone who can run 4.41 has potential to get deep. Seriously. If not for Johnson, Bowe is drafted MUCH higher, probably ends up the most hyped receiver in the draft.

Lastly, I hate when people rip Sylvester Morris. The guy won AFC ROOKIE OF THE YEAR and was a GREAT DRAFT PICK. He didn't get lazy, or lack effort.. he blew his knee out 4 seasons in a row. FOUR!! I hate when people blame a player/GM for a draft pick that doesn't pan out because of a serious injury when the player had no injury history. Unless Whitlock has a crystal ball, that comment is just stupid.

ChiefsCountry
05-01-2007, 04:29 PM
LMAO

Other than that, that's the only thing that interested me.

Anyone who can run 4.41 has potential to get deep. Seriously. If not for Johnson, Bowe is drafted MUCH higher, probably ends up the most hyped receiver in the draft.

Lastly, I hate when people rip Sylvester Morris. The guy won AFC ROOKIE OF THE YEAR and was a GREAT DRAFT PICK. He didn't get lazy, or lack effort.. he blew his knee out 4 seasons in a row. FOUR!! I hate when people blame a player/GM for a draft pick that doesn't pan out because of a serious injury when the player had no injury history. Unless Whitlock has a crystal ball, that comment is just stupid.

Percy Snow same way.

Chris Meck
05-01-2007, 04:38 PM
thanks for that, coach. I've been harping on that for a long time.

Sly Mo was a very good pick that had very bad luck.

grandllama
05-01-2007, 04:41 PM
Hey wait one freaking minute SNR!

I hate Herm more than any jackass on this message board...

Just wanted to make that clear...

Carrry on!

Getchyer ass in line behind me....

Messier
05-01-2007, 04:49 PM
The single dumbest paragraph ever written about sports.

Thanks for letting Nick "The Erroneous One" Athan off the hook you fat retard.

I agree. How dumb is it to say the way the Chiefs drafted sucked, I don't know who could have been better, but they messed up.

Way to shoe your knowledge of the players available Jason.

chiefsfan1963
05-01-2007, 06:21 PM
Blah, blah, blah.

Vermeil gets 100% of the credit for the offense and Carl Peterson gets 100% of the blame for the defense, according to you.

No I'm not saying that. What I'm saying is give peace a Chance.

Just kidding.

Anyway, my point is no question DV blew it on building a D, but he was clearly good at producing a decent O arguably the best in franchise history. All he needed was a Top 20 D. A better GM would have made that happen. We need new blood in the Front Office. Until this happens we won't be able to turn the page and start a new chapter.

chiefsfan1963
05-01-2007, 06:32 PM
Well, here's my take, and as some of you know, I predicted a 5-11 to 6-10 season for us before the draft.

I was actually quite pleased. My feeling is that the thinking goes along these lines:

1. Our defense is closer to being an elite unit than our offense is.
2. Our offense needs a serious upgrade at either WR or OL

So the Chiefs use their #1 on the best offensive player, whether it be WR or OL in their estimation, and then do what they think is necessary to potentially bump the defense into that elite range (top 8). Since the offense is going to have some growing pains anyway, their best chance for success rides on the defense.

Although they won't say it publically, privately, I think they know this is going to be a rough year regardless of what strategy they employed in this draft. This means they might be drafting high next year and you are much more likely to get that impact OL or CB at the top of a draft as opposed to the bottom where you can still get a quality WR. Add in another free agent and the Chiefs look to be contending again after a short dropoff (unlike the catastrophic ones the Chargers and Raiders went through).

I prefer to trust the Herm associated draft team. Last year's draft I thought was really good:

1 20(20) Tamba Hali DE Penn State
2 22(54) Bernard Pollard S Purdue
3 21(85) Brodie Croyle QB Alabama
5 21(154) Marcus Maxey CB Miami (FL)
6 17(186) Tre Stallings OG Mississippi State
6 21(190) Jeff Webb WR San Diego State
7 20(228) Jarrad Page S UCLA

I'm sorry, but that's throwing darts right there, especially if Brodie pans out. I also think that we can do a good job of developing and teaching the offensive line, especially if we avoid the injuries and give it a chance to gell. So, it may not be as bad as people think. Certainly not as good as it was, but how many offensive lines boast three pro bowlers (two of which are possible HOF'ers)?

I hate to say it, but I may be hedging from my initial prediction. I still think our schedule is a killer for this particular team, but my long term view of this team is actually improving.

-HH


I agree this season will be tough but in the long run it will finally get us a Top 10 or 15 pick with all our picks in all the rounds. We may possibly get another 4th rounder if we trade Trent. Herm has proven to be strong at picking good young players so I would like to see how he does with a high draft pick. Ultimately I don't think he has the goods to produce a Top 15 O no matter who he brings in, but if I'm wrong then concievably he can bring a Championship to KC with a strong D and decent O. Anyway 4-12 or 5-11 season will be tough for Chiefs fans to experience, but if it is only one season then will be worth it. I live in SD and I can't imagine how it is to be a fan of team that had losing records for nearly 10 seasons in a row with one 1-15 season. Not good.

the Talking Can
05-01-2007, 06:41 PM
I agree. How dumb is it to say the way the Chiefs drafted sucked, I don't know who could have been better, but they messed up.

Way to shoe your knowledge of the players available Jason.

He wanted us to reach for a position of need...in a weak draft for OL talent. Hello? McFly? Remember DV's drafts?

Herm made it clear they weren't going to reach. You draft for value to build a good team. Jason is fat and wrong. Herm is thin and right.

Plus, his comment about Bush shows just how little he pays attention...Bush isn't healthy and may not even play this year. Complaining about not spending a 3rd on an over weight, injured player is fantastically stupid. Roy17 stupid.

Bush over a 2nd round talent animal DT? ROFL

htismaqe
05-01-2007, 08:01 PM
No I'm not saying that. What I'm saying is give peace a Chance.

Just kidding.

Anyway, my point is no question DV blew it on building a D, but he was clearly good at producing a decent O arguably the best in franchise history. All he needed was a Top 20 D. A better GM would have made that happen. We need new blood in the Front Office. Until this happens we won't be able to turn the page and start a new chapter.

The GM gave said coach COMPLETE control over personnel. Why didn't HE fix the defense? Why does that become Carl's job?

KCTitus
05-01-2007, 08:03 PM
I think Whitlock is right...this team is in major need of OL help. I sure hope the defense doesnt mind being asked to not only stop the other team, but score as well...

chiefsfan1963
05-01-2007, 08:18 PM
The GM gave said coach COMPLETE control over personnel. Why didn't HE fix the defense? Why does that become Carl's job?

You kidding yourself if you think DV had complete control over personnel.

noa
05-01-2007, 08:19 PM
You kidding yourself if you think DV had complete control over personnel.

It sure wasn't King Carl who wanted Dexter McLeon on the roster...DV brought in many of his favorites and kept them around when he should have let them go.

Brock
05-01-2007, 08:21 PM
You kidding yourself if you think DV had complete control over personnel.

He obviously had too much.

Messier
05-01-2007, 08:29 PM
I think Carl gives almost complete control of personnel to his coaches and player personnel guys.

Direckshun
05-01-2007, 08:32 PM
You can't make a reasonable case that Carl has significant say in building a team.

You'd have to have a multiple-personalities to field the 2003 Chiefs and the 2007 Chiefs.

StcChief
05-01-2007, 08:39 PM
King Carl's Trust is there with Herm and co. Not so much with DV (hence the LJ pick Carl's choice).

TRR
05-01-2007, 09:17 PM
I couldn't disagree more with this article. Not only was Bowe easily the 2nd best WR in the draft, if it weren't for Calvin Johnson, everybody would have had Bowe in their top 10.

Other than maybe Joe Staley, there wasn't an offensive lineman that could have came in and started next season. It's time to see what guys like Svitek and Sampson are made of. Let guys like Welbourn earn their keep. Make McIntosh earn every penny of his FA contract. I think too much is being made of the offensive line woes.

Short Leash Hootie
05-01-2007, 09:54 PM
Damon did fine behind our offensive line last year...it was Trent that couldn't handle it...why? HE DIDN'T GET RID OF THE ****ING BALL.

Damon will be fine as long as LJ is in the backfield.

pikesome
05-01-2007, 10:39 PM
Damon did fine behind our offensive line last year...it was Trent that couldn't handle it...why? HE DIDN'T GET RID OF THE ****ING BALL.

Damon will be fine as long as LJ is in the backfield.

Or he threw it at LJ's shoelaces. They don't have the best hands.