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Marlboro_Chief
05-11-2007, 12:57 AM
Who is the greatest AFC West tight end of all-time?

Deberg_1990
05-11-2007, 12:58 AM
Shannon Sharpe of course...

Tribal Warfare
05-11-2007, 01:02 AM
that's a big name list it could go either way. I obstain from this vote.

shrek6849
05-11-2007, 01:04 AM
You really wonder what the answer to this will be on a Chiefs forum? Weeeeeeeeeee

'Hamas' Jenkins
05-11-2007, 01:06 AM
The poll shouldn't be close because Gonzalez is heads and shoulders above any of those guys there.

Not only was he a better receiver than the best receiving TE's on that list, he was a better blocker than the Christiansen's, Gates's, and Winslow's of the list.

Logical
05-11-2007, 01:08 AM
Most of you are too young to have seen Kellen Winslow but IMO he is the clear winner. Tony is the greatest receiving TE but not the complete TE that Winslow was.

'Hamas' Jenkins
05-11-2007, 01:17 AM
Most of you are too young to have seen Kellen Winslow but IMO he is the clear winner. Tony is the greatest receiving TE but not the complete TE that Winslow was.

That's just flat out wrong. Trollishly wrong. Winslow wasn't the receiver nor the blocker that Tony was.

Direckshun
05-11-2007, 01:18 AM
Why does this particular division have such a history at this position?

Geez, no idea the list was this packed.

luv
05-11-2007, 01:20 AM
Tony! Tony! Tony!

XXXshogunXXX
05-11-2007, 01:26 AM
That's just flat out wrong. Trollishly wrong. Winslow wasn't the receiver nor the blocker that Tony was.

I dunno man, how can you say that. Winslow had 3 years of 1000+ yards, 1 more than Gonzalez. Hes known as one of the first big time receiving TE's.

Reaper16
05-11-2007, 01:27 AM
Tony.

KcMizzou
05-11-2007, 01:29 AM
I dunno man, how can you say that. Winslow had 3 years of 1000+ yards, 1 more than Gonzalez. Hes known as one of the first big time receiving TE's.And a Charger too!

(Of course he was also a Mizzou guy :D)

pr_capone
05-11-2007, 01:45 AM
Sharpe, Winslow, and TGOAT all have a shot at the title.

Sharpe perhaps not so much since he spent time away from the AFC West with the Ravens.

TG has a real shot at the title full out as he still has 3-4 good years left in him.

LTforMVP
05-11-2007, 02:04 AM
Dont worry Gates will blow everyone else out of the water when his career is over

Through first 4 years of their respective careers:

Sharpe 2056 yards and 13 TDs

Winslow 3341 yards and 27 TDs

Gonzalez 3041 yards and 24 TDs

Gates 3378 yards and 34 TDs

88TG88
05-11-2007, 02:06 AM
hmmmmm this is tough

ChiefJustice
05-11-2007, 02:16 AM
Dont worry Gates will blow everyone else out of the water when his career is over

Through first 4 years of their respective careers:

Sharpe 2056 yards and 13 TDs

Winslow 3341 yards and 27 TDs

Gonzalez 3041 yards and 24 TDs

Gates 3378 yards and 34 TDs


I hope you didn't just jinx your guy into a career ending injury.

'Hamas' Jenkins
05-11-2007, 03:54 AM
Dont worry Gates will blow everyone else out of the water when his career is over

Through first 4 years of their respective careers:

Sharpe 2056 yards and 13 TDs

Winslow 3341 yards and 27 TDs

Gonzalez 3041 yards and 24 TDs

Gates 3378 yards and 34 TDs

Next 4 Years: Gonzo 309 catches, 3864, 30 TDs

Winslow: 232, 2881, 15 TDs

Tony gave you about 19 more catches a year, 250 more yards, and twice the TDs.

It's not even a comparision.

And Winslow had 3 total years over 900, Tony's had 6

JohnnyV13
05-11-2007, 06:41 AM
Gates might end up the best at the end of his career due to his touchdown catches.

Gonzo never suffered the severe knee injury that curtailed Winslow's career.

But, the AFC West has had some of the best TE play in the game.

htismaqe
05-11-2007, 06:53 AM
Why are Gonzales and Gates even on the list?

The title says "history". Neither of them are "history" yet.

Reerun_KC
05-11-2007, 06:58 AM
Well even though I voted for Gonzo... Sharpe has something TG will never get...

SUPERBOWL RINGS.. Not just a ring but RINGS!!!! When TG signed that last contract, the ensured himself that he will never reach the SB....

Tony is a First Ballot HOF... To Bad he wont have a Ring to show for all his hard work.

htismaqe
05-11-2007, 07:07 AM
Well even though I voted for Gonzo... Sharpe has something TG will never get...

SUPERBOWL RINGS.. Not just a ring but RINGS!!!! When TG signed that last contract, the ensured himself that he will never reach the SB....

Tony is a First Ballot HOF... To Bad he wont have a Ring to show for all his hard work.

ROFL

StcChief
05-11-2007, 07:07 AM
Winslow in his time of the Game now doubt at this point

Gonzo but since he's not done yet......who knows.

Sharpe despite being a cheating donx has alot of numbers. But overall best?

Gates too early to tell how his career will pan out.

Chiefnj
05-11-2007, 07:12 AM
I hated to do it, but if careers ended today, I'd have to vote for Shannon. I hated Shannon because he was so good and backed up his words. He was largely instrumental in his teams winning those rings, especially with Baltimore. He came up huge in the postseason at times.

Mile High Mania
05-11-2007, 07:15 AM
Sharpe has the stats, the rings, the pro bowls... everything.

Reerun_KC
05-11-2007, 07:19 AM
Sharpe has the stats, the rings, the pro bowls... everything.


Yeah it pisses me off, but you cant discount the rings.... Just like ChiefNJ said, he backed up his mouth on the field with his play... As much as I dislike "Hooked on Ebonics" Sharpe. He was and is the man of all TE's in the history of the NFL.....

KCinNY
05-11-2007, 09:17 AM
What? Not a single vote for Todd Christensen?

He was the best ever at catching the 3 yard curl in.

ChiefsCountry
05-11-2007, 09:45 AM
3 best of all-time is in the division. Not bad.

keg in kc
05-11-2007, 09:47 AM
5 or 6 years from now, after he retires, it'll be Gonzalez.

Right now it's Sharpe.

boogblaster
05-11-2007, 09:53 AM
Tony G followed by horse-faced Sharpe-Donk...

boogblaster
05-11-2007, 09:56 AM
ps..the reason he stayed and came back to donkie-dung is his resemblance to their mascot...

vailpass
05-11-2007, 10:04 AM
That's just flat out wrong. Trollishly wrong. Winslow wasn't the receiver nor the blocker that Tony was.

Don't you get tired of showing your ass on this BB?

Reerun_KC
05-11-2007, 10:54 AM
5 or 6 years from now, after he retires, it'll be Gonzalez.

Right now it's Sharpe.


He better step up and get on a team that will allow him to win some rings or at least one....


Sharpe will always be better.. LIKE HERM says. Stats and style points are nice, but wins and superbowl wins are what matters...

Easy 6
05-11-2007, 11:02 AM
You can make equal cases for Gonzalez, Winslow & Sharpe, though the educated homer in me will tell you that Tony didnt have the same quality of guys at WR to take the pressure off of him.

Gates fans???...get back to us in SEVERAL more years.

keg in kc
05-11-2007, 11:09 AM
He better step up and get on a team that will allow him to win some rings or at least one....


Sharpe will always be better.. LIKE HERM says. Stats and style points are nice, but wins and superbowl wins are what matters...Teams win superbowls, not individuals.

htismaqe
05-11-2007, 11:37 AM
Teams win superbowls, not individuals.

You can make a solid case that one of Sharpe's teams would not have won a Super Bowl without him.

vailpass
05-11-2007, 12:10 PM
You can make a solid case that one of Sharpe's teams would not have won a Super Bowl without him.

Spot on. Everyone says Elway would not have won his first SB ring without TD and it's true. What nobody talks about is the fact he wouldn't have won it without his #1 go-to receiver Sharpe either.

Reerun_KC
05-11-2007, 12:15 PM
You can make a solid case that one of Sharpe's teams would not have won a Super Bowl without him.


Bingo.....

htismaqe
05-11-2007, 01:10 PM
Spot on. Everyone says Elway would not have won his first SB ring without TD and it's true. What nobody talks about is the fact he wouldn't have won it without his #1 go-to receiver Sharpe either.

I was actually talking about Baltimore.

I think Denver MIGHT have been able to win one without him.

Baltimore might not have even MADE IT to the Super Bowl without what he did in the playoffs that year.

Fruit Ninja
05-11-2007, 01:23 PM
Sharpe. Gonzo, Winslow.

After that it doesnt matter yet.

kcchiefsus
05-11-2007, 01:30 PM
Tony Gonzalez will soon pass up just about every one of Shannon Sharpe's records, and in less time than it took Sharpe to reach those records.

Gonzalez will go down as the GOAT of TE's by the end of his career.

vailpass
05-11-2007, 01:39 PM
Tony Gonzalez will soon pass up just about every one of Shannon Sharpe's records, and in less time than it took Sharpe to reach those records.

Gonzalez will go down as the GOAT of TE's by the end of his career.

Playoff catches/TDs/yards?
Playoff wins?
SB rings?

Seems like TG may always trail Sharpe in the important stats.

Deberg_1990
05-11-2007, 01:43 PM
No love for Ricky Dudley?

Fruit Ninja
05-11-2007, 01:49 PM
Playoff catches/TDs/yards?
Playoff wins?
SB rings?

Seems like TG may always trail Sharpe in the important stats.
True, but he needs a team to help him with that. Only thing Tony can control is the regular season. After that, its just a matter of if your lucky enough to be on a great team.

FD
05-11-2007, 02:23 PM
Gonzo when you throw in blocking

vailpass
05-11-2007, 02:28 PM
True, but he needs a team to help him with that. Only thing Tony can control is the regular season. After that, its just a matter of if your lucky enough to be on a great team.

Agreed. TG is as good at creating his own space as any TE to play the game.

Mile High Mania
05-11-2007, 03:29 PM
I was actually talking about Baltimore.

I think Denver MIGHT have been able to win one without him.

Baltimore might not have even MADE IT to the Super Bowl without what he did in the playoffs that year.

Exactly... Sharpe was Elway's target before the emergence of Smith & McCaffery. Sharpe still thrived when those two became consistent threats, but Sharpe's value was definitely seen more visibly on that Ravens' team. Sharpe and Lewis were about all they had in BALT.

I am not by any means discounting what he did for those Denver teams, I'm a huge Sharpe fan... but I see exactly what you're saying.

Mile High Mania
05-11-2007, 03:31 PM
Tony Gonzalez will soon pass up just about every one of Shannon Sharpe's records, and in less time than it took Sharpe to reach those records.

Gonzalez will go down as the GOAT of TE's by the end of his career.

Well, that happens when Gonzo is getting help from the likes of Kennison while Sharpe was playing on an offense with the likes of Smith and McCaffery for several years.

Gonzo has been the only real threat while Sharpe for most years in Denver was one of 2-3 top targets.

htismaqe
05-11-2007, 03:37 PM
Well, that happens when Gonzo is getting help from the likes of Kennison while Sharpe was playing on an offense with the likes of Smith and McCaffery for several years.

Gonzo has been the only real threat while Sharpe for most years in Denver was one of 2-3 top targets.

Which makes what Gonzo has done all the more remarkable...

kcchiefsus
05-11-2007, 03:49 PM
Well, that happens when Gonzo is getting help from the likes of Kennison while Sharpe was playing on an offense with the likes of Smith and McCaffery for several years.

Gonzo has been the only real threat while Sharpe for most years in Denver was one of 2-3 top targets.

Give me a break. People aren't going to take away Peyton Manning's records because he had great receivers to throw to.

A great player plays good regardless of who is around him.

And that goes the other way you know. Shannon Sharpe was one of 2 or 3 weapons on that offense so teams could never double or triple cover him.

In KC Gonzalez has been the only weapon so he gets double and triple teamed all the time but he still puts up huge numbers.

Adept Havelock
05-11-2007, 03:50 PM
I almost voted for Winslow (he was incredible), but my Homer streak convinced me it was Tony G.

Who will own all of Sharpe's records before he retires. ;)

kcchiefsus
05-11-2007, 03:51 PM
Playoff catches/TDs/yards?
Playoff wins?
SB rings?

Seems like TG may always trail Sharpe in the important stats.

Team accomplishments.

Trent Dilfer and Brad Johnson have super bowl rings.

Does that make them better than Dan Marino?

Dave Lane
05-11-2007, 03:55 PM
Tough but Winslow really changed the TE posistion so I'm giving him a slight edge over TG but my hearts with Tony...

Dave

Mile High Mania
05-11-2007, 03:56 PM
Which makes what Gonzo has done all the more remarkable...

Well, this is where you can have fun with stats and facts...

Gonzo was a R1 guy from CAL that was drafted and expected to produce and play immediately. Sharpe was a R7 guy from Savannah St. that they likely didn't think would last past training camp, back in 1990.

Through their first 10 seasons, Gonzo definitely has the edge on stats when you compare the first 10 seasons of both players. Sharpe didn't really figure into the equation until his 3rd season... not shocking for a R7 guy. Gonzo had as many receptions in year 1 that Sharpe had his first 2 seasons. Again, you expect your R1 choices to produce now...

Sharpe also missed 11 games due to injury in his 10th season, so that also factors in to the stats race. And, no ... not making excuses, just pointing out a fact.

Through their first 10 seasons... Gonzo had 2 seasons over 1,000 yards and Sharpe had 3 seasons over 1,000 yards.

Currently, Sharpe has the stats records and the hardware...

Currently, Gonzo is on pace to break the stats records, yet still searching for the hardware...

We'll all use our own criteria for the GOAT.

vailpass
05-11-2007, 03:56 PM
Team accomplishments.

Trent Dilfer and Brad Johnson have super bowl rings.

Does that make them better than Dan Marino?

The statement was made that TG will pass Sharpe's records. I pointed out records that TG will never pass; records that history will take into account in judging each player whether you choose to do so or not.

Mile High Mania
05-11-2007, 03:59 PM
I'm not saying Gonzo sucks by any means, he's a badass... if I were building a team and had my pick of TEs though, gimme Sharpe.

kcchiefsus
05-11-2007, 04:04 PM
The statement was made that TG will pass Sharpe's records. I pointed out records that TG will never pass; records that history will take into account in judging each player whether you choose to do so or not.

Ummm, most records are based on regular season stats.

Do people say "Jerry Rice had the most ________ in the playoffs."

No.

They say, Jerry Rice has the record for the most yards and touchdowns by a wide receiver.

Same will go for Tony Gonzalez.

Gonzalez can't control the ability of the Chiefs to get to the playoffs.

What he can control is that in the 16 games a year he is allowed to play in, no matter how good or bad the team he is on was, he repeatedly tore up secondaries.

Mile High Mania
05-11-2007, 04:10 PM
If I were a Chiefs' fan I'd discount post season as well...

Adept Havelock
05-11-2007, 04:12 PM
Ummm, most records are based on regular season stats.

Do people say "Jerry Rice had the most ________ in the playoffs."

No.

They say, Jerry Rice has the record for the most yards and touchdowns by a wide receiver.

Same will go for Tony Gonzalez.

Gonzalez can't control the ability of the Chiefs to get to the playoffs.

What he can control is that in the 16 games a year he is allowed to play in, no matter how good or bad the team he is on was, he repeatedly tore up secondaries.

True.

Wouldn't surprise me if Tony G made the HOF before Sharpe, either.

Well, unless the league feels sorry for him and gives Denver more than one player there.* ;)


* Tony Dorsett and Willie Brown are both in so it can be argued they have 3...but they are there because of their accomplishments with Dallas and Oakland, respectively.

Mile High Mania
05-11-2007, 04:17 PM
Sharpe will be a first ballot HOF'er... put it in 3-inch headlines.

2003 was Sharpe's last year to play... so that would make his first year of eligibility... 2009? There is a 5 year wait, correct?

Gonzo will not get to the HOF before Sharpe, that's insanity.

Adept Havelock
05-11-2007, 04:21 PM
Sharpe will be a first ballot HOF'er... put it in 3-inch headlines.

2003 was Sharpe's last year to play... so that would make his first year of eligibility... 2009? There is a 5 year wait, correct?

Gonzo will not get to the HOF before Sharpe, that's insanity.

Maybe, maybe not. I didn't say it was a sure thing. I said it wouldn't surprise me.

Perhaps you are correct, and the League and it's minions will take pity on the Donks and give them a whopping 2 players in the HOF. Solar radiance still occasionally illuminates a canine posterior, so it's certainly possible. :shrug:

vailpass
05-11-2007, 04:23 PM
Ummm, most records are based on regular season stats.

Do people say "Jerry Rice had the most ________ in the playoffs."

No.

They say, Jerry Rice has the record for the most yards and touchdowns by a wide receiver.

Same will go for Tony Gonzalez.

Gonzalez can't control the ability of the Chiefs to get to the playoffs.

What he can control is that in the 16 games a year he is allowed to play in, no matter how good or bad the team he is on was, he repeatedly tore up secondaries.

Whatever makes you feel better. TG is a BAD man, not saying otherwise, but post-season records certainly count when evaluating GOAT.

Mile High Mania
05-11-2007, 04:28 PM
Maybe, maybe not. I didn't say it was a sure thing. I said it wouldn't surprise me.

Perhaps you are correct, and the League and it's minions will take pity on the Donks and give them a whopping 2 players in the HOF. Solar radiance still occasionally illuminates a canine posterior, so it's certainly possible. :shrug:

Pity will play no role in Sharpe getting into the HOF.

Mile High Mania
05-11-2007, 04:29 PM
Ummm, most records are based on regular season stats.

Do people say "Jerry Rice had the most ________ in the playoffs."

No.

They say, Jerry Rice has the record for the most yards and touchdowns by a wide receiver.

Same will go for Tony Gonzalez.

Gonzalez can't control the ability of the Chiefs to get to the playoffs.

What he can control is that in the 16 games a year he is allowed to play in, no matter how good or bad the team he is on was, he repeatedly tore up secondaries.So, Dan Marino is the GOAT when compared to Joe Montana. Correct?

Hell, Warren Moon and Fran Tarkenton have better career stats in the regular season compared to Joe Montana... he's behind those guys on the greatness scale.

**edit note** I'm purposefully not using Elway b/c the use of another Bronco will just cloud your mind

Adept Havelock
05-11-2007, 04:37 PM
Pity will play no role in Sharpe getting into the HOF.


Pity for Sharpe? Probably not. Pity for Denver and their lone member...almost certainly. :p

Mile High Mania
05-11-2007, 04:39 PM
Pity for Sharpe? Probably not. Pity for Denver and their lone member...almost certainly. :p

Enh, no pity... it's all about the Lombardi (all 3 of them & the 5 Lamar Hunt Trophys) anyway.

Count Alex's Losses
05-11-2007, 04:39 PM
Shannon Sharpe is one of the most overrated players in NFL history. Had he not been constantly running his mouth while playing with John Elway, I doubt he'd have been more than a blip on the NFL radar.

Mile High Mania
05-11-2007, 04:47 PM
Shannon Sharpe is one of the most overrated players in NFL history. Had he not been constantly running his mouth while playing with John Elway, I doubt he'd have been more than a blip on the NFL radar.

This quote is why many refer to you as the King of Dumbassery.

JBucc
05-11-2007, 04:50 PM
You have to take each situation differently when taking into account post season numbers. If a player consistently chokes in the post season he should be punished for that, but if a guy's team just stinks he's shouldn't be penalized for it. That's why Barry Sanders can legitimately be called the best of all time.

TG's avg. playoff game (only three of them)-3.6 catches, 35.3 yards, .33 Td's.
Horse face (18 games)-3.4 catches, 45.2 yards, .22 TD's.

I'm sure mumbleman had many more meaningful catches, but again that goes back to the team doing something meaningful.

Mile High Mania
05-11-2007, 05:02 PM
You have to take each situation differently when taking into account post season numbers. If a player consistently chokes in the post season he should be punished for that, but if a guy's team just stinks he's shouldn't be penalized for it. That's why Barry Sanders can legitimately be called the best of all time.

TG's avg. playoff game (only three of them)-3.6 catches, 35.3 yards, .33 Td's.
Horse face (18 games)-3.4 catches, 45.2 yards, .22 TD's.

I'm sure mumbleman had many more meaningful catches, but again that goes back to the team doing something meaningful.

I applaud your effort at making a case for TG having better postseason success, but... ya failed miserably.

Adept Havelock
05-11-2007, 05:09 PM
That's why Barry Sanders can legitimately be called the best of all time.


Ummmm. No. Hell no. Barry was great, no doubt, but not the best.


.

JBucc
05-11-2007, 05:19 PM
Ummmm. No. Hell no. Barry was great, no doubt, but not the best.


.I'm not saying he was, just that you could make the argument. I'd go with Jim Brown as well.

to MHM: I don't know if you play NCAA or not, but McFadden is the only 99 rated player in the game. Just thought you'd like to know.

KCinNY
05-11-2007, 05:21 PM
That's why Barry Sanders can legitimately be called the best of all time.
Are you insane?

Sanders was great at highlight reel runs and ankle breaking moves, but he also loved to run up to the line and just stop resulting in a large number of negative yardage runs.

I can think of a dozen running backs I'd rather have on my team than Barry Sanders.

Mile High Mania
05-11-2007, 05:27 PM
I'm not saying he was, just that you could make the argument. I'd go with Jim Brown as well.

to MHM: I don't know if you play NCAA or not, but McFadden is the only 99 rated player in the game. Just thought you'd like to know.

You referring to a game? I'm not a gamer... but, McFadden is a beast. It sucks that HDN is still there...

'Hamas' Jenkins
05-11-2007, 05:34 PM
Sorry guys, but quarterbacks are really the only players that you can judge based upon postseason success, or lack thereof. Calling Sharpe a better TE than Gonzalez b/c his team did better in the postseason is a ridiculous argument. If you put Tony in that same spot Denver and Baltimore are more dangerous. If you put Sharpe on the same Chiefs teams, do they ever win anything??

Hell no.

And vailpass, explain to me how I'm showing my ass when the stats clearly prove that Gonzalez is a better TE than Winslow. I wonder if people here have seen that Miami-San Diego game a few too many times on ESPN and want to overrate Kellen based upon that one performance. The guy was a great TE, HOF caliber, but he's not the best ever, nor is Sharpe.

Put their career stats next to one another, account for the fact that Tony has been the best receiver on this team since his second year (sorry D. Alexander) and the numbers clearly show that Gonzalez is the best.

Sharpe: 815 Catches, 10,060 yards, 62 TDs in 203 games

Gonzalez 721 Catches, 8710 Yards, 61 TDs in 158 games.

Gonzo will pass Sharpe for TDs this year, and barring major injury, catches and yards the next.

His splits clearly show that he's the better player.

vailpass
05-11-2007, 05:36 PM
Sorry guys, but quarterbacks are really the only players that you can judge based upon postseason success, or lack thereof. Calling Sharpe a better TE than Gonzalez b/c his team did better in the postseason is a ridiculous argument. If you put Tony in that same spot Denver and Baltimore are more dangerous. If you put Sharpe on the same Chiefs teams, do they ever win anything??

Hell no.

And vailpass, explain to me how I'm showing my ass when the stats clearly prove that Gonzalez is a better TE than Winslow. I wonder if people here have seen that Miami-San Diego game a few too many times on ESPN and want to overrate Kellen based upon that one performance. The guy was a great TE, HOF caliber, but he's not the best ever, nor is Sharpe.

Put their career stats next to one another, account for the fact that Tony has been the best receiver on this team since his second year (sorry D. Alexander) and the numbers clearly show that Gonzalez is the best.

Sharpe: 815 Catches, 10,060 yards, 62 TDs in 203 games

Gonzalez 721 Catches, 8710 Yards, 61 TDs in 158 games.

Gonzo will pass Sharpe for TDs this year, and barring major injury, catches and yards the next.

His splits clearly show that he's the better player.

How many seasons of Winslow's games did you watch? Do you have any knowledge of him aside from what you read in a stat line?

'Hamas' Jenkins
05-11-2007, 05:43 PM
How many seasons of Winslow's games did you watch? Do you have any knowledge of him aside from what you read in a stat line?

Let's investigate the logic of your thought (or lack thereof) a little bit further.

How many seasons of YA Tittle's work did you watch? How about Sammy Baugh??

If I told you that Sammy Baugh was a better QB than Joe Montana, what would you say?? How would you defend yourself?

Mile High Mania
05-11-2007, 05:45 PM
Sorry guys, but quarterbacks are really the only players that you can judge based upon postseason success, or lack thereof. Calling Sharpe a better TE than Gonzalez b/c his team did better in the postseason is a ridiculous argument. If you put Tony in that same spot Denver and Baltimore are more dangerous. If you put Sharpe on the same Chiefs teams, do they ever win anything??

Hell no.

And vailpass, explain to me how I'm showing my ass when the stats clearly prove that Gonzalez is a better TE than Winslow. I wonder if people here have seen that Miami-San Diego game a few too many times on ESPN and want to overrate Kellen based upon that one performance. The guy was a great TE, HOF caliber, but he's not the best ever, nor is Sharpe.

Put their career stats next to one another, account for the fact that Tony has been the best receiver on this team since his second year (sorry D. Alexander) and the numbers clearly show that Gonzalez is the best.

Sharpe: 815 Catches, 10,060 yards, 62 TDs in 203 games

Gonzalez 721 Catches, 8710 Yards, 61 TDs in 158 games.

Gonzo will pass Sharpe for TDs this year, and barring major injury, catches and yards the next.

His splits clearly show that he's the better player.

Why is post season success a better measurment for QBs only?

It's still a team game in the regular season, right? Again - we all know that Denver has had far superior teams, allowing their players to produce in the offseason... that's no secret. But, why just QBs.

Mile High Mania
05-11-2007, 05:47 PM
Again, KC's lack of focus on having quality WRs has helped Gonzo's from a stats perspective.

Direckshun
05-11-2007, 05:53 PM
Again, KC's lack of focus on having quality WRs has helped Gonzo's from a stats perspective.
Oh here it goes.

Tony G can't do anything about that. He gets the balls thrown to him and he's caught them better than any TE in the game.

Mile High Mania
05-11-2007, 05:59 PM
Oh here it goes.

Tony G can't do anything about that. He gets the balls thrown to him and he's caught them better than any TE in the game.

I think it's a valid point... since 1997 (Gonzo's rookie year), only 4 times has a WR had more than 60 receptions for the Chiefs. Often times, the numbers are well below that mark.

Since 1999, Gonzo has been well over that 60 rec mark each season.

My point is... there's historically been no other option, he's a damn good one, but... it's not like he's fighting with quality WRs for balls.

Count Alex's Losses
05-11-2007, 06:03 PM
I wonder what Mile High Mania will cling to when Gonzo shatters all of Sharpe's records and pisses on the shards?

keg in kc
05-11-2007, 06:04 PM
First 5 years of his career he didn't have a quality runningback, either. Or quarterback, for that matter.

I don't, however, think that serves to invalidate anything that he's done. In fact, he's had the best QB, RB, WR situation of his career since 2001, with Green, Kennison, and LJ/Priest, yet his production has not dropped measurably.

suds79
05-11-2007, 06:09 PM
Again, KC's lack of focus on having quality WRs has helped Gonzo's from a stats perspective.

Actually I think KC's lack of quality WRs just goes to show how truly amazing Tony has been.

All teams have had to do when game planning against KC's passing attack is stop Tony Gonzalez... And they still can't do it.

I've seen Denver put Champ Bailey (the best CB in the game) on Tony. What other TE has had to face those kind of matchups consistently throughout their career? None.

htismaqe
05-11-2007, 06:13 PM
Again, KC's lack of focus on having quality WRs has helped Gonzo's from a stats perspective.

Again, it's quite the opposite.

Not having quality WR's (or RB's for his first 4 years) made it HARDER for Tony to do what he did because he was the primary focus of the opposing defense.

'Hamas' Jenkins
05-11-2007, 06:20 PM
I wonder what Mile High Mania will cling to when Gonzo shatters all of Sharpe's records and pisses on the shards?


Rep.

Mile High Mania
05-11-2007, 06:23 PM
I have no doubt that Gonzo is going to own the records... and that's fine, records are going to be broken.

The body of work includes the entire career... both have had stellar careers, Sharpe has more than regular season greatness to point to for his achievements.

vailpass
05-11-2007, 06:24 PM
Let's investigate the logic of your thought (or lack thereof) a little bit further.

How many seasons of YA Tittle's work did you watch? How about Sammy Baugh??

If I told you that Sammy Baugh was a better QB than Joe Montana, what would you say?? How would you defend yourself?

In other words, you never watched Winslow play and are making statements based solely on numbers you have read.

Mile High Mania
05-11-2007, 06:25 PM
So, I guess you are all in agreement that Marino is worlds better than Montana.

'Hamas' Jenkins
05-11-2007, 06:28 PM
So, I guess you are all in agreement that Marino is worlds better than Montana.

See my post about postseason success vis-a-vis the Quarterback position.

How many people are going to bash Willie Roaf for the fact that he only won 1 playoff game his entire career?? Are people going to say that a guy like Pace was better b/c he won a Super Bowl despite giving up more sacks??

Mile High Mania
05-11-2007, 06:42 PM
See my post about postseason success vis-a-vis the Quarterback position.

How many people are going to bash Willie Roaf for the fact that he only won 1 playoff game his entire career?? Are people going to say that a guy like Pace was better b/c he won a Super Bowl despite giving up more sacks??

Well, that's convenient, but you gotta work with what's in front of ya...

Easy 6
05-11-2007, 06:44 PM
Again, KC's lack of focus on having quality WRs has helped Gonzo's from a stats perspective.

Its already been covered, but i'm gonna say it again...you have this post COMPLETELY bass-ackwards.

Mile High Mania
05-11-2007, 06:47 PM
Again, it's quite the opposite.

Not having quality WR's (or RB's for his first 4 years) made it HARDER for Tony to do what he did because he was the primary focus of the opposing defense.

Don't get me wrong... that's the angle I take in the "Elway is better than Montana" debates when I have said switch Elway and Montana in the late 80s... Elway would have all of the rings or more that Joe had, and Joe likely doesn't make it to one of those SBs that Elway lost.

keg in kc
05-11-2007, 06:53 PM
Don't get me wrong... that's the angle I take in the "Elway is better than Montana" debates when I have said switch Elway and Montana in the late 80s... Elway would have all of the rings or more that Joe had, and Joe likely doesn't make it to one of those SBs that Elway lost.Hopefully, like Elway, Gonzalez will get a ring or two at the end of his career, so everything else he has done will be "validated".

Mile High Mania
05-11-2007, 06:58 PM
Hopefully, like Elway, Gonzalez will get a ring or two at the end of his career, so everything else he has done will be "validated".

Well, they finally built a viable team around him... so, there's hope for Gonzo.

Gonzo (like Elway prior to the Shanahan era) is greatness, no mistake about it. I'm not saying the lack of post season items mean that Gonzo sucks.

I compared bodies of work earlier and I was told that post season didn't matter, except for QBs. I think it's silly, but this is a Chiefs site... I expect nothing else. The poll results on the Mane would be the reverse... that's expected.

keg in kc
05-11-2007, 07:00 PM
I don't disagree. I think Gonzalez is better, but he doesn't have Sharpe's body of work yet. Like I said before, I think in 5-6 more years, it won't be much of an argument, Superbowls or not.

10 years from now, we might be saying the same thing about Gates...

And then there'll be another TE after him. It's how things go.

Count Alex's Losses
05-11-2007, 07:08 PM
Bronco fans get pretty asshurt over this argument since, outside Elway, Sharpe is their only player that registers on the radar of NFL history. And barely at that. Pretty sad...

keg in kc
05-11-2007, 07:09 PM
We shouldn't be casting stones over a lack of players that register on the radar of NFL history.

Mile High Mania
05-11-2007, 07:10 PM
Bronco fans get pretty asshurt over this argument since, outside Elway, Sharpe is their only player that registers on the radar of NFL history. And barely at that. Pretty sad...

Heh... nothing said by you or others on this site get me bent out of shape. Chiefs' fans have success envy.

Mile High Mania
05-11-2007, 07:19 PM
Enh, Clayton thinks he is a sports guy now that he gets to post his ramblings on WPI. It's no biggie, but at least he's found a hobby and an outlet for doing something.

Count Alex's Losses
05-11-2007, 07:29 PM
I thought we were talking about Sharpe's overratedness, not how awesome I am. Deflect much?

Mile High Mania
05-11-2007, 07:37 PM
I thought we were talking about Sharpe's overratedness, not how awesome I am. Deflect much?
Hmmm... I thought I was replying to you and about you since you brought up the comment about Broncos' fans. Pay attention.

Count Alex's Losses
05-11-2007, 07:40 PM
Oh, I am. You're launching into your usual ad hominem douchebaggery. Have fun, I'm outta here.

Chief Faithful
05-11-2007, 09:22 PM
Again, it's quite the opposite.

Not having quality WR's (or RB's for his first 4 years) made it HARDER for Tony to do what he did because he was the primary focus of the opposing defense.

Absolutely, he gets triple covered on most pass plays and when he doesn't he burns the defense. I have never seen another TE get held at the line and triple covered on pass plays repeatedly the way Gonzo does. If Gonzo got the comparable light coverage similar to Gates and Sharpe his numbers would dwarf other TE's. The one game I saw Gates receive this type attention he was completely shut out.

milkman
05-11-2007, 09:40 PM
. If you put Tony in that same spot Denver and Baltimore are more dangerous.

If Tony had been in the same spot in Baltimore, the Ravens don't win a SB.

There's no way that Tony takes that slant pass to the house late in the playoff game against Oakland like Sharpe di.

That was an 88(?) yard TD catch and run, and Tony would have been run down and tackled well before he scores because he simply doesn't have Sharpe's speed.

Greatest of all time is an arbitrary argument, regardless of position.

But having watched all those guys, the guy I would stay awake worrying about the night before a game the most if I were a coach having to face them is Winslow.

He, IMO, was the most dangerous playmaker at the TE position ever.

SoCalBronco
05-11-2007, 09:48 PM
Bronco fans get pretty asshurt over this argument since, outside Elway, Sharpe is their only player that registers on the radar of NFL history. And barely at that. Pretty sad...

A guy that is on two all decade teams doesnt register on the radar of NFL history?

How bout another guy that went to six straight pro bowls? Why would that not qualify for "registering on the radar of NFL history"?

milkman
05-11-2007, 09:51 PM
A guy that is on two all decade teams doesnt register on the radar of NFL history?

He's talking about the teams in general, not a specific player.

SoCalBronco
05-11-2007, 09:58 PM
He's talking about the teams in general, not a specific player.

I was intending to quote GoChiefs instead of keg in kc, I have corrected that.

Rain Man
05-11-2007, 10:50 PM
Winslow is an icon of the NFL and it seemed like a no-brainer to vote for him, but I have to say, I would rather have Gonzalez. I'm a bit shocked to say that.

The others on the list are all good players, but Winslow and Gonzalez are far superior to the rest of the pack.

BigMeatballDave
05-12-2007, 01:46 AM
Team accomplishments.

Trent Dilfer and Brad Johnson have super bowl rings.

Does that make them better than Dan Marino?
:clap: Well said!

BigMeatballDave
05-12-2007, 01:49 AM
Sharpe will be a first ballot HOF'er... put it in 3-inch headlines.

2003 was Sharpe's last year to play... so that would make his first year of eligibility... 2009? There is a 5 year wait, correct?

Gonzo will not get to the HOF before Sharpe, that's insanity.He will pass Sharpe in catches and yards before Sharpe is inducted on the 1st.

BigMeatballDave
05-12-2007, 01:53 AM
I wonder what Mile High Mania will cling to when Gonzo shatters all of Sharpe's records and pisses on the shards?
ROFL

shrek6849
05-12-2007, 01:56 AM
You all can win this poll as far as I am concerned. Us Bronco fans will take our Super Bowl victories.

BigMeatballDave
05-12-2007, 01:57 AM
I don't disagree. I think Gonzalez is better, but he doesn't have Sharpe's body of work yet. Like I said before, I think in 5-6 more years, it won't be much of an argument, Superbowls or not.

10 years from now, we might be saying the same thing about Gates...

And then there'll be another TE after him. It's how things go.Gates will have some work to do. TG will probably break a 1000 catches. Barring major injury.

Easy 6
05-12-2007, 01:58 AM
Mein Gott in Himmel...is this REALLY still an argument???

Everybody PLEASE...go silently slide up next to your wifes ass...or your own hand...whatever & get some rest for Cripe Pete.

They are ALL really good...k???