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mselley
05-11-2007, 01:44 PM
sorry if repost....

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/etan-thomas/an-open-letter-to-jason-w_b_48247.html

An Open Letter To Jason Whitlock
Earlier this week, i had the pleasure of participating in a panel discussion moderated by Spike Lee. The panel included Algee Crumpler of the Atlanta Falcons, Jim Brown, Stephen A. Smith, Coach Vivian Stringer, William Rhoden, Alonzo Mourning, Jason Whitlock, and Claire Smith of the Philadelphia Inquirer. It was an absolute honor to be there discussing pertinent issues that current athletes face.

Some things i agreed with, some things i didn't, but overall, i believe that it was very successful.

One of the topics of discussion was not surprisingly Rutgers coach Vivian Stringer and Jason Whitlock, the columnist from the Kansas City Star. I remember watching the press conference of coach Vivian Stringer standing up for her team, and looking at my wife's expression, who played on the women's basketball team at Syracuse University. She was staring at the television with eyes of pride and admiration. At the panel, I heard young women from the Spellman team who, thanked coach stringer on behalf of all women for instilling pride and dignity into the minds and hearts of so many young women, much more than she knew.

I almost stood up and clapped as Coach Stringer delivered some very passionate words directed at Jason Whitlock. She was attempting to explain why his columns and articles were not only insulting but misguided, and for some reason Jason Whitlock simply couldn't understand. I spoke with him afterward so that I could hear his explanation and maybe engage him in a debate as I too disagreed with the majority of his articles and comments. Surprisingly, I discovered that while we definitely didn't see eye to eye on some topics, there were others in which I was in complete agreement. I just don't know if he fully understands the magnitude of his words. So I decided to write this article in the form of an open letter Mr. Whitlock Let me preface by saying, I mean no disrespect. My intention is in no way aimed to demean, discredit or ridicule you in any shape or form. I am familiar with your work (although you said on the panel that I was just a basketball player, and you didn't expect me to know much about your writing). I do have access to, as Bush likes to call it, "the internets," so it is relatively easy to read or research a plethora of topics and/or people.

I am writing this as a warning. A caution if you will. After speaking with you one on one, I learned, surprisingly, that although we definitely don't see eye to eye on a number of issues, you do have some opinions and thoughts I agree with. I'm not going to call you an Uncle Tom, sell-out, say you're tap dancing for the media, putting down your people so that you can move up the ladder of success in a Clarence Thomas, Ward Connerly, JC Watts-type fashion, because I actually took the time to talk to you. I truly believe that is not your intention. However, you had to see that the overall feeling in the room by the students was that you were in fact grouped with the aforementioned gentlemen and deserving of the previously mentioned labels. I spoke to some of the students at the conclusion of the event, and let me tell you, they did not hold you in high regard. One student said he wished I had more time to speak about holding the few black journalists we have accountable and how glad they were that I stood up to, in his words, "your Uncle Tom way of thinking". You heard the one student get up during the question and answer portion and ask you how you can pride yourself on "amen"ing, as he called it, all of the negative things that the media says about not only us, but the entire hip-hop culture. Hip-hop is not all negatively charged, prison culture embracing, gangster rap music, as you seem to think.

The perception that you are on "their" side is constantly growing. I know that this is not a label you want. Interestingly, you seem to be unaware of this because when I told you that you came across worse than Bill Cosby, you looked at me with eyes of disbelief. Not only did you say that this was not your intention, you vehemently denied those allegations. You looked at me as if I said something utterly ridiculous.

The audience couldn't hear your point about us taking ownership, respecting each other, immersing ourselves in positivity while rejecting the negative stereotypes that are prevalent in society. They couldn't receive your message to abandon any aspect of our own culture that is, in your words "anti-black, anti-education, demeaning, self-destructive, pro drug-dealing and violent." They couldn't hear that from you because it appeared as though you were not on their side. I'm sure you heard the abundance of sighs and moans when your quote about moving the NBA All Star game to Europe was read. You said in an article entitled "Mayhem main event at NBA All-Star Weekend," that "David Stern seriously needs to consider moving the event out of the country for the next couple of years in hopes that young, hip-hop hoodlums would find another event to terrorize." You also said, "All Star Weekend can no longer remain the Woodstock for parolees, wannabe rap artists and baby's mamas on tax refund vacations." You went on to talk about how you felt as if you were walking in a prison yard when you saw all of the baggy jeans, white t-shirts, doo-rags, etc., and that you were in fear for your life. You completely demonized them to the point that they began to be repulsed by your words before you even spoke them. You don't understand that you were describing the attire of most of the young people attending the forum. Young people in college aspiring to become journalists, lawyers, doctors, engineers, teachers, etc. were put into one big mass of negativity simply because of their clothing. Unfortunately, this is a label that is commonly placed on them by mainstream America.

Mr. Whitlock, hip-hop is not the problem. Baggy jeans and boots are not either. Hip hop is a style and a culture that apparently you do not understand. First of all, there is no direct correlation between one's apparel and partaking in criminal activity. Wearing oversized clothes, t-shirts and chains do not make you a criminal, but if you are constantly living in fear every time you see a young person dressed a certain way, then that speaks volumes to your own insecurities. In addition, there are positive aspects to hip-hop as well as negative, and I understand that negativity is what sells, but don't limit that to hip-hop. That is a societal ill, which includes the media, movies, television, politics, pick your poison. Negativity sells. Just as when I challenged the journalists on the panel as to why the positive things that athletes do are never shown, the general explanation was that negativity sells. Unfortunately, this includes hip-hop. Believe me, I wish my favorite MCs like Rakim, Talib Kweli, Common, the Roots, Mos Def, Nas, would be the ones riding the waves of guaranteed triple-platinum-selling artists. However, that doesn't mean that they, or professional athletes doing positive things, do not exist. I just don't think you realize how you come across.

In regards to the outrage from Imus' statements, you were quoted as saying, "a man who degrades himself wastes his time demanding respect from others." As if the young women on the Rutgers basketball team or all black people in general degrade ourselves. That couldn't have been what you meant, but that's the way it came across. You also said in an article titled, "Imus isn't the real bad guy," "You've given Vivian Stringer and Rutgers the chance to hold a nationally televised recruiting celebration expertly disguised as a news conference." In that same article, you go on to say, "I'm sure at least one of the marvelous young women on the Rutgers team is somewhere snapping her fingers to the beat of 50 Cent's or Snoop Dogg's or Young Jeezy's latest ode glorifying nappy headed pimps and hos," as if that somehow transformed Imus publicly humiliating them into something acceptable. I did what you said, and looked up on YouTube DL Hughley's mean, insensitive jokes on Jay Leno about the women of the Rutgers team, and I agree it was deplorable, but do you understand that both are wrong? While it is of the utmost importance for us to respect ourselves it is also important to not allow others to disrespect us. How would you feel if it were your mother, sister, or daughter directly being referred to in that manner? Coach Stringer and the women on the team handled the situation beautifully. They exuded nothing but class and dignity. They accepted his apology and moved on. They didn't ask for him to be fired.

Then, you went on MSNBC and CNN to attacked Rev. Al Sharpton and Rev. Jesse Jackson. You brought up their personal matters as if that had anything to do with the situation at hand. You criticized Coach Vivian Stringer and trivialized the entire situation. Of course Tucker Carlson is going to say, jokingly or not, that he would nominate you as the next black leader. You actually said that your recommendation to CBS, was not to negotiate with terrorists, referring to Rev. Sharpton and Rev. Jackson. I mean seriously, you may not like them, or believe they are noble to our cause, but terrorists? Mr. Whitlock, the media wants you to say those things, especially the right-wing media. You are appearing to be on "their" side. You call for new leadership, but I didn't hear you make any recommendations. Of course you will receive an abundance of .attention and praise, as Bob Ryan coined you "Jason Whitlock, the world's last honest man" You said yourself in an article posted on TheBigLead.com, "white people write me love letters when I blast off into the way the media, and a prosecutor tried to crucify the Duke lacrosse players on the word of a couple of black criminal escorts."

Which begs the question, who is benefiting from your comments? What exactly is your goal in writing the articles you write? Is it to help our youth, who because of the fact that you appear to not be on their side find it difficult to receive your message, or is it for another reason? While I understand that the Duke players turned out to be innocent, do you fail to see the way you come across? I know that you don't want to be known as the "Uncle Tom of journalism" as one of the students at the panel referred to you while thanking me for standing up for them. Whether you like it or not, that perception of you is out there. And if you don't do something about it, this label will be your legacy.

Direckshun
05-11-2007, 01:45 PM
Please do not feed Whitlock.

mselley
05-11-2007, 01:47 PM
probably could go in DC, but its a JW attack- so I thought it could go in the lounge

Douche Baggins
05-11-2007, 01:48 PM
I'm glad I'm not black. Sheesh.

htismaqe
05-11-2007, 01:49 PM
Not surprising.

Some of Whitlock's best work EVER, and he's an "Uncle Tom".

StcChief
05-11-2007, 01:51 PM
The A-A community continues to fight among themselves as to what is wrong with A-A community.

Surprise.

jidar
05-11-2007, 01:52 PM
All bullshit.

BigRedChief
05-11-2007, 01:52 PM
If this dude doesn't think that the Gangster rap and the lifestyle it promotes doesn't effect young black people then he needs to put down the crack pipe.

Reaper16
05-11-2007, 01:59 PM
Etan's whole argument is dumb. He's saying that Whitlock is wrong because hip hop is not all influenced by prison culture, there can be positives to hip hop. What Etan apparently doesn't understand is that Whitlock knows that, absolutely. For Etan to deny, though, that there is too much negativity in mainstream hip hop is being delusional. And who cares what some college kids think; who cares if they call Jason an Uncle Tom? Most college kids don't know shit anyway, there are a bunch of psuedo-intellectuals out there.

Mr. Kotter
05-11-2007, 02:15 PM
Not surprising.

Some of Whitlock's best work EVER, and he's an "Uncle Tom".

It's how the African American community "polices" it's own.....:shake:

wutamess
05-11-2007, 02:15 PM
:BS:

I'm an "A-A" and it's sickening to me how the "black pride" crowd thinks. Like Chris Rock says... "That aint Ted Koppel robbing me at my ATM machine. That's a n i g g a!"

It's that "us against them" mentality that does nothing but promote racism or a sense of pride. What's really stupid is... I know that every race commits the same crimes etc, but there's stats to support that more crimes are committed by A-A or people of color more than anyone else per race. But still, you have these (truth hurts) people that blame the media for our peoples downfalls. It's not the media that fills our federal prison population with 77% minority populations considering that we're probably less than 25% of the total population.

Complete and utter bullshit. I'm worried as hell too when a see a group of black males with braids, baggy jeans, & t-shirt myself. And that's not to be taken lightly because I come from the ghetto.

What really pisses me off is black people (or any race) mad at stereotypes. All races are stereotyped. Even though they are not the norm they are typical within a specific race.

Stereotypes:
Blacks... loves chicken, watermelon, Rap/HipHop, big butts, white women, rims, colors, more athletic, etc.

Whites... loves tight clothes (See Phil), uptight (See Phil), country music, Jeff Foxworthy, Robin Wiilliams (never understood either of those), nerdy, trashy (See Phil), soccer moms, flat butts, black pricks, etc

Hispanics... loves kid prom dresses, salsa, roofs, lots of people in small cars, millions of kids, multiple families live together, fat when older, etc.

All though this isn't the norm in each race it's probably more prevalent in the respective race than others. It's just the social norm. Nothing to get upset about.

[Forrest]That's all I got to say about that [/Gump]

htismaqe
05-11-2007, 02:18 PM
:BS:

Care to elaborate?

You might be the one person here actually qualified to take on such a subject.

Baby Lee
05-11-2007, 02:30 PM
Mr. Whitlock, hip-hop is not the problem. Baggy jeans and boots are not either. Hip hop is a style and a culture that apparently you do not understand. First of all, there is no direct correlation between one's apparel and partaking in criminal activity. Wearing oversized clothes, t-shirts and chains do not make you a criminal, but if you are constantly living in fear every time you see a young person dressed a certain way, then that speaks volumes to your own insecurities.
The origins of baggy clothing was identification with the incarcerated. Inmates were given oversized clothing, and were denied belts, making their pants sag.
So while it might not make you a criminal, it connotes that you 'identify' with criminals.

Micjones
05-11-2007, 02:35 PM
Jason Whitlock is neither forward-thinking or even beholden to his own rigid ideals for what Hip Hop culture should represent.

Whitlock's an "uncle tom" because he hasn't told the whole story, because he himself has a rather spotty reputation in his own endeavors as a journalist and because he has personally invested himself in the brand of Rap music he claims to despise.

Baby Lee
05-11-2007, 02:37 PM
Listen man, I'm not gonna demean or insult you, I'm not gonna call you Uncle Tom, or Steppin' Fetchit, or a sell out. No, I'm just gonna point that other people can and have, and admonish you to think hard on THAT.

[Emperor Taco] the passive-aggressive is strong in this one [/ET]

Baby Lee
05-11-2007, 02:38 PM
Jason Whitlock is neither forward-thinking or even beholden to his own rigid ideals for what Hip Hop culture should represent.

Whitlock's an "uncle tom" because he hasn't told the whole story, because he himself has a rather spotty reputation in his own endeavors as a journalist and because he has personally invested himself in the brand of Rap music he claims to despise.
Still exhausted?

DJJasonp
05-11-2007, 02:38 PM
Not surprising.

Some of Whitlock's best work EVER, and he's an "Uncle Tom".

Amen...amen....amen!

I know people who went to vegas for all star weekend....and he's probably understated the scene....

I chalk this writer as another one who doesnt want to take responsibility for anything....always blaming it on something/someone else, rather than taking a self-moral inventory.

Micjones
05-11-2007, 02:40 PM
Still exhausted?

From the bigotry on parade in this forum? Yes...

NewChief
05-11-2007, 02:40 PM
Listen man, I'm not gonna demean or insult you, I'm not gonna call you Uncle Tom, or Steppin' Fetchit, or a sell out. No, I'm just gonna point that other people can and have, and admonish you to think hard on THAT.

[Emperor Taco] the passive-aggressive is strong in this one [/ET]


I didn't even make it through the whole article, but I did find one tactic pretty funny:

So, I'm not going to call you Uncle Tom or anything. Instead, I'm going to mention all the other people who call you an Uncle Tom. Let's quote 'em all.

htismaqe
05-11-2007, 02:41 PM
Whitlock's an "uncle tom" because he hasn't told the whole story, because he himself has a rather spotty reputation in his own endeavors as a journalist and because he has personally invested himself in the brand of Rap music he claims to despise.

Those things would make him a hypocritical opportunist to be sure.

But not an Uncle Tom.

Douche Baggins
05-11-2007, 02:42 PM
It's also possible Jason just changed his mind.

I used to hate tomatoes. Jason started hating hip-hop culture.

Baby Lee
05-11-2007, 02:43 PM
From the bigotry on parade in this forum? Yes...
Conscious unmerited intonation of bigotry is just as disgusting as conscious intonation of racist rhetoric.

Take your act to Springer.

Douche Baggins
05-11-2007, 02:43 PM
I chalk this writer as another one who doesnt want to take responsibility for anything....always blaming it on something/someone else, rather than taking a self-moral inventory.

ROFL

Are you suggesting we blame JASON WHITLOCK for thugs' 'n gangstas?

DJJasonp
05-11-2007, 02:48 PM
ROFL

Are you suggesting we blame JASON WHITLOCK for thugs' 'n gangstas?

I mean the writer calling out Whitlock.....although I'm not so sure we can take it THAT far!

What I meant by my comment is that in many interviews with leaders in the community (since Imus' incident)....there's been a lot of diverting of blame towards the record executives and how it's their fault for all of this.

yeah, right.

(sorry...a bit vague in the earlier post)

Micjones
05-11-2007, 02:49 PM
Whitlock's myopia on the display takes the focus off of the real issues in play.

He's towing a line that parallels what much of mainstream America thinks of Black communities. To the detriment of solving the real problem.

Blacks aren't incensed at the "bootstrap" or personal responsibility speech.

They're just wondering why television and film aren't in his crosshairs?

They're wondering why he hasn't told the rest of the story about the conditions in America that feed into much of what he has dissected in his rants.

They're wondering why he's commissioning Rap records of artists who represent and perpetuate the negative imagery that's so prevalent in Rap music.

They're wondering why he has lumped us all in this category as though all of us are shiftless, good-for-nothing Negroes.

A thinking man would take all of this into consideration. He hasn't... Because ultimately he isn't interested in real change. He's interested in face time.

Because he's burned one bridge too many in his current profession as a half-baked sports writer.

Wait... We haven't heard much about the conduct that put him in that predicament.

Nah... Let's just talk about these Rapper guys.

vailpass
05-11-2007, 02:51 PM
From the bigotry on parade in this forum? Yes...

Tired of the man holding you down?

Micjones
05-11-2007, 02:51 PM
Conscious unmerited intonation of bigotry is just as disgusting as conscious intonation of racist rhetoric.

Take your act to Springer.

No sir. That's a very real charge and one I take seriously.
There are those in this forum who have never paraded around their biased generalizations of African-Americans, but there is no absence of that at CP.

Buy that or don't.

Micjones
05-11-2007, 02:52 PM
Tired of the man holding you down?

You are every bit as dumb as your commentary would suggest.

DJJasonp
05-11-2007, 02:53 PM
Whitlock's myopia on the display takes the focus off of the real issues in play.

He's towing a line that parallels what much of mainstream America thinks of Black communities. To the detriment of solving the real problem.

Blacks aren't incensed at the "bootstrap" or personal responsibility speech.

They're just wondering why television and film aren't in his crosshairs?

They're wondering why he hasn't told the rest of the story about the conditions in America that feed into much of what he has dissected in his rants.

They're wondering why he's commissioning Rap records of artists who represent and perpetuate the negative imagery that's so prevalent in Rap music.

They're wondering why he has lumped us all in this category as though all of us are shiftless, good-for-nothing Negroes.

A thinking man would take all of this into consideration. He hasn't... Because ultimately he isn't interested in real change. He's interested in face time.

Because he's burned one bridge too many in his current profession as a half-baked sports writer.

Wait... We haven't heard much about the conduct that put him in that predicament.

Nah... Let's just talk about these Rapper guys.

Well put.....I think this whole situation is going to show the true colors of a lot of people....and what I mean by that is how they respond and take up the cause in multiple channels (as you said...why not tv, etc.?)...but most importantly....will they keep up the cause because they feel it's the right thing to do....or will they make that "celebrity appearance" to get some good PR and then fade away.

vailpass
05-11-2007, 02:54 PM
You are every bit as dumb as your commentary would suggest.

Whitey got his boot on your throat and he won't let you up?

Baby Lee
05-11-2007, 02:56 PM
No sir. That's a very real charge and one I take seriously.
There are those in this forum who have never paraded around their biased generalizations of African-Americans, but there is no absence of that at CP.

Buy that or don't.
ROFL ROFL

So on the planet we have;

Bigots who don't reveal themselves, and

Bigot who do.

Micjones
05-11-2007, 02:56 PM
Whitlock is so poorly researched no respectable television program should allow him on the set.

But there will always be a place for him in mainstream media when he utilizes his oversized soapbox to tow the same myopic lines as a broad section of mainstream America.

Micjones
05-11-2007, 02:58 PM
ROFL ROFL

So on the planet we have;

Bigots who don't reveal themselves, and

Bigot who do.

There are people on Chiefs Planet who are undeniably bigots.
And there are those who aren't.

I don't lay the charge at the feet of everyone who communes here, but I've heard enough from some posters that it's painfully obvious.

Simply Red
05-11-2007, 03:00 PM
yawn

Micjones
05-11-2007, 03:01 PM
I went back and re-read my initial post.

The word "their" might've made my commentary less than clear.

I'll restate it...

Some people in this forum are bigoted.
It's in plain view and evidenced in their posts.

Others seem to be good-natured people who truly have an interest in seeing change.

Others still are confused and misinformed by what they don't know... And that's okay, but some are so steeped in the regurgitated rhetoric of everyone else that they aren't willing to learn.

Fish
05-11-2007, 03:01 PM
There are people on Chiefs Planet who are undeniably bigots.
And there are those who aren't.

I don't lay the charge at the feet of everyone who communes here, but I've heard enough from some posters that it's painfully obvious.

There are also those who like to wave their victim flag every chance they get. Again... not everyone who communes here, but some posters make it painfully obvious.

Simply Red
05-11-2007, 03:02 PM
I went back and re-read my initial post.

The word "their" might've made my commentary less than clear.

I'll restate it...

Some people in this forum are bigoted.
It's in plain view and evidenced in their posts.

Others seem to be good-natured people who truly have an interest in seeing change.

Others still are confused and misinformed by what they don't know... And that's okay, but some are so steeped in the regurgitated rhetoric of everyone else that they aren't willing to learn.

I'm just a "wigga."

Micjones
05-11-2007, 03:02 PM
yawn

I envy you.

I wish I lived in a world where I too didn't have to worry about such issues.

JBucc
05-11-2007, 03:03 PM
Can't black people just get along?

Baby Lee
05-11-2007, 03:03 PM
I went back and re-read my initial post.

The word "their" might've made my commentary less than clear.

I'll restate it...

Some people in this forum are bigoted.
It's in plain view and evidenced in their posts.

Others seem to be good-natured people who truly have an interest in seeing change.

Others still are confused and misinformed by what they don't know... And that's okay, but some are so steeped in the regurgitated rhetoric of everyone else that they aren't willing to learn.
Well, now that you've clarified, I'd just point out that 'some people around here are xx' without expanding or clarifying, puts you in a lonely little cell with Mememe. Sorry 'bout that.

OnTheWarpath58
05-11-2007, 03:04 PM
Tired of the man holding you down?

I guess this guy is.....

<object width="425" height="350"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/j6YW2crJuC4"></param><param name="wmode" value="transparent"></param><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/j6YW2crJuC4" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" wmode="transparent" width="425" height="350"></embed></object>

Micjones
05-11-2007, 03:04 PM
There are also those who like to wave their victim flag every chance they get. Again... not everyone who communes here, but some posters make it painfully obvious.

Where have I ever identified myself as a "victim"?

Micjones
05-11-2007, 03:05 PM
Well, now that you've clarified, I'd just point out that 'some people around here are xx' without expanding or clarifying, puts you in a lonely little cell with Mememe. Sorry 'bout that.

You don't need clarification.
You need to open your eyes...
And stop cozying up to blatant ignorance when you're a party to it.

Micjones
05-11-2007, 03:05 PM
I guess this guy is.....

<object width="425" height="350"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/j6YW2crJuC4"></param><param name="wmode" value="transparent"></param><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/j6YW2crJuC4" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" wmode="transparent" width="425" height="350"></embed></object>

That guy's an idiot.
Now what?

bsp4444
05-11-2007, 03:06 PM
People want to dress and act differently and then complain about being treated differently. I don't understand it. While I don't think everyone should be as "plain white wrapper" as myself, I think the more radical you are the more you are judged, or pre-judged.

Micjones
05-11-2007, 03:08 PM
Attire signifies little if anything.

That's not a very good measuring stick for coming by who someone is.

vailpass
05-11-2007, 03:10 PM
You know it's hard out here for a pimp
When he tryin to get this money for the rent
For the Cadillacs and gas money spent
Because a whole lot of bitches talkin shit
Will have a whole lot of bitches talkin shit

kstater
05-11-2007, 03:11 PM
Micjones, when you DJ do you play "gangster" rap?

wutamess
05-11-2007, 03:11 PM
Attire signifies little if anything.

That's not a very good measuring stick for coming by who someone is.

:BS:
It's the first impression.
Although I'm guilty of sagging myself. I do not do it when I'm trying to make an impression unless I really just don't give a damn. I respect other people. They don't need to see my undies just because I want to sag.

Micjones
05-11-2007, 03:11 PM
Insightful.

Must hurt that you don't have anything to contribute to the discussion ay VP?

Micjones
05-11-2007, 03:11 PM
Micjones, when you DJ do you play "gangster" rap?

I'm not a DJ, but I am in fact a Rap act.
And all of my music is positive, enlightening and uplifting.

Baby Lee
05-11-2007, 03:13 PM
Insightful.

Must hurt that you don't have anything to contribute to the discussion ay VP?
I wouldn't be bagging on lack of contribution. At least not without a refreshing nap first.

Micjones
05-11-2007, 03:13 PM
:BS:
It's the first impression.
Although I'm guilty of sagging myself. I do not do it when I'm trying to make an impression unless I really just don't give a damn. I respect other people. They don't need to see my undies just because I want to sag.

One can't form a holistic evaluation of someone with just a first impression to inform them.

We're not talking about job interview etiquette here.
We're talking about a generalized view of people who identify with a particular culture.

Mr. Kotter
05-11-2007, 03:15 PM
Where have I ever identified myself as a "victim"?

It may be apparent to some, in your words....the same way you claim bigotry is apparent in others, by their words. Regardless, of whether either is true. :shrug:

I just wish you'd realize, there are people willing to listen to what you have to say here; you should either give it a try, or just really forget about jumping into these discussions. Your innuendo and ambiguity is insulting to thinking people (whether you intend it or not)....when you insist on only addressing the issue in generalities and ambiguous rhetoric, that doesn't address the "real problems," as you say. You seem to be guilty, ironically, of precisely what you accuse Whitlock of....ignoring the real issues.

The Kozol and de facto segregation issues are a start, but I think it's reasonable to assume there is much more to the puzzle than that....help us out here, man.

OnTheWarpath58
05-11-2007, 03:17 PM
It may be apparent to some, in your words....the same way you claim bigotry is apparent in others, by their words. Regardless, of whether either is true. :shrug:

I just wish you'd realize, there are people willing to listen to what you have to say here; you should either give it a try, or just really forget about jumping into these discussions. Your innuendo and ambiguity is insulting to thinking people (whether you intend it or not)....when you insist on only addressing the issue in generalities and ambiguous rhetoric, that doesn't address the "real problems," as you say. You seem to be guilty, ironically, of precisely what you accuse Whitlock of....ignoring the real issues.

The Kozol and de facto segregation issues are a start, but I think it's reasonable to assume there is much more to the puzzle than that....help us out here, man.


Well put, Kotter.

Baby Lee
05-11-2007, 03:17 PM
One can't form a holistic evaluation of someone with just a first impression to inform them.

We're not talking about job interview etiquette here.
We're talking about a generalized view of people who identify with a particular culture.
Funny, when you know that baggy/saggy is an outgrowth of prison culture, that you go with the infinitely vague and benign 'particular.'

Fish
05-11-2007, 03:20 PM
Where have I ever identified myself as a "victim"?

I never said you did.

I've noticed however, that 98% of your posts are in racially-themed threads.

Take that however you choose.

I do think you're a smart individual, but I think some people would look at your posts as very biased.

vailpass
05-11-2007, 03:22 PM
In my eyes I done seen some crazy thangs in the streets
Gotta couple hoes workin on the changes for me
But I gotta keep my game tight like Kobe on game night
Like takin from a ho don't know no better, I know that ain't right

wutamess
05-11-2007, 03:23 PM
One can't form a holistic evaluation of someone with just a first impression to inform them.

We're not talking about job interview etiquette here.
We're talking about a generalized view of people who identify with a particular culture.

Again :BS:

No matter who the hell you are you need to command respect. Even though you're not in an interview environment are you going to listen to some guy that's sagging or the presentable one.

Now try being a minority (you're already stereotyped as inferior).
Appearance goes a long way with people (interview or not).

Sagging portrays ignorance. That's exactly what I think when I see anyone doing it (even though I do it sometimes, but not in public)

Micjones
05-11-2007, 03:24 PM
I just wish you'd realize, there are people willing to listen to what you have to say here; you should either give it a try, or just really forget about jumping into these discussions. Your innuendo and ambiguity is insulting to thinking people (whether you intend it or not)....when you insist on only addressing the issue in generalities and ambiguous rhetoric, that doesn't address the "real problems," as you say. You seem to be guilty, ironically, of precisely what you accuse Whitlock of....ignoring the real issues.

The Kozol and de facto segregation issues are a start, but I think it's reasonable to assume there is much more to the puzzle than that....help us out here, man.

I know precisely what the real issues are.
And the fact that I'm not taking responsibility for someone else who could similarly educate and arm themselves with that information doesn't make my commentary any less meaningful.

You want me to be the guide and the pathway to enlightment.
That's flattering, but I don't have all of the answers.

Neither do I have enough time in my day to dedicate to informing everyone.

The same bits of information that I've come by are available to all of you.

So at what point will you take responsibility for yourself and find out what can be had with time, effort and research?

irishjayhawk
05-11-2007, 03:25 PM
There are two things in play.

1) Whitlock wants face time. This is true and always has been.
2) Whitlock's argument is spot on.

I have yet to see anyone take on the substance of his argument. Instead, every article attacks Whitlock either directly or indirectly. Vivian Stringer got her face time too, yet no one mentions her ploy. Whitlock has been spot on thus far. Each article that continues to attack him and ignore the substance is, in fact, furthering his point.

Let's examine this article. He makes the most bs statement here in:
Hip-hop is not all negatively charged, prison culture embracing, gangster rap music, as you seem to think.
Between the "f*ck the police, f*ck the system, bitches and hoes, ni***rs and n***as", I couldn't see the positivity. Maybe I'm blind.

Young people in college aspiring to become journalists, lawyers, doctors, engineers, teachers, etc. were put into one big mass of negativity simply because of their clothing. Unfortunately, this is a label that is commonly placed on them by mainstream America.

Wow. This one baffles me. He brings up all those examples yet he's attending a Black Athletes Forum. In this respect, and in my experience here at KU, this isn't that far off, whether for better or worse.

In between the constant ad hominem personal attacks on Whitlock, I found this:
However, that doesn't mean that they, or professional athletes doing positive things, do not exist.

Then there's this gem:
In that same article, you go on to say, "I'm sure at least one of the marvelous young women on the Rutgers team is somewhere snapping her fingers to the beat of 50 Cent's or Snoop Dogg's or Young Jeezy's latest ode glorifying nappy headed pimps and hos," as if that somehow transformed Imus publicly humiliating them into something acceptable. I did what you said, and looked up on YouTube DL Hughley's mean, insensitive jokes on Jay Leno about the women of the Rutgers team, and I agree it was deplorable, but do you understand that both are wrong?

I haven't seen him disagree about this.vHe understands that both are wrong. That's his point. He never said Imus was completely in the clear. He has said, all along (to my knowledge), that the reaction to Imus was what was wrong with the whole event. There was no out lash or reaction to DL Hughley's comedy skit. Just another contradiction.

I have to disagree here:
Coach Stringer and the women on the team handled the situation beautifully.
An hour long press conference for something the players probably didn't hear first hand and the extremely staged, read responses was, in my humble opinion, unnecessary and pointless. It was, it seemed, a pity party. One designed for publicity.

Pot, will you please meet Kettle:
You brought up their personal matters as if that had anything to do with the situation at hand.

The article concludes about wondering if the attacks on his character will continue. Again, not much about the substance of what he's saying but more about his "legacy", "character" and "perception".


Look, it seems both sides are in a state of ignorance and denial. Sure, rappers can make a boat load of money continuing with the current line of dialog. But at what cost?

The NFL and NBA, where a large portion of both leagues is black, it has started to come to light. The prison culture is evident. Any denial of this is flat out ignorance.

It is true, also, that the Pacman Jones story was blown way out of proportion. Sure, he's been a suspect in 10 incidents. It seems, though, that the media has turned it into 10 convictions, which, in turn, caused the NFL to make an example of him. Yes, an example needed to be made. I concede that fact.

So, you see, there are multiple angles to the same story. The fact is that Whitlock may be off on his material on the Chiefs from time to time, and in my book plays the race card on some issues where it just isn't needed, but he isn't here.

Please, someone write something criticizing what he is saying rather than his journalistic tendencies or style.

That's all folks.

Micjones
05-11-2007, 03:26 PM
It's rather disheartening to put energy and time into convincing those who can't be convinced.

Some are truly and genuinely interested.
Others would rather rely upon the ignorance that has so long been a part of their existence.

It's easier to believe that there are no pre-existing inequities that are hurtful to Black communities than it is to read up on restrictive convenants that exist in their fair town to this day.

So why should I take time out to combat all of that?
With THOSE PEOPLE?

Simply Red
05-11-2007, 03:27 PM
Street's disciple, my raps are trifle
I shoot slugs from my brain just like a rifle
Stampede the stage, I leave the microphone split
Play Mr. Tuffy while I'm on some Pretty Tone shit
Verbal assassin,

Douche Baggins
05-11-2007, 03:28 PM
A local boy kicked me in the butt last week
I just smiled at him and turned the other cheek
I really don't care, in fact I wish him well
'Cause I'll be laughing my head off when he's burning in hell
But I ain't never punched a tourist even if he deserved it
An Amish with a 'tude? You know that's unheard of
I never wear buttons but I got a cool hat
And my homies agree, I really look good in black...fool
If you come to visit, you'll be bored to tears
We haven't even paid the phone bill in 300 years
But we ain't really quaint, so please don't point and stare
We're just technologically impaired

Fruit Ninja
05-11-2007, 03:29 PM
Then they also need to stop making tv shows with pimp's, drug dealers, Gangsters, Mobsters and whatever else. THink hollywood is going to settle for that? 2 words. **** NO

vailpass
05-11-2007, 03:29 PM
It's blood sweat and tears when it come down to this shit
I'm tryin to get rich 'fore I leave up out this bitch
I'm tryin to have thangs but it's hard fo' a pimp
But I'm prayin and I'm hopin to God I don't slip, yeah

wutamess
05-11-2007, 03:30 PM
There are two things in play.

1) Whitlock wants face time. This is true and always has been.
2) Whitlock's argument is spot on.


Between the "f*ck the police, f*ck the system, bitches and hoes, ni***rs and n***as", I couldn't see the positivity. Maybe I'm blind.


:BS: Now here's the stereotypical ignorance I hate.
The article clearly gave you examples of positive Hip Hop artists such as Nas, Roots, Twalib, Mos Def, KRS-One, Dead Prez, etc.

Take your fuggin blinders off and stop taking things out of context.

Douche Baggins
05-11-2007, 03:30 PM
Seriously. Spike Lee, Jim Brown, Stephen A. ****ING Smith and two black women all in the same room. HOLY SHIT.

vailpass
05-11-2007, 03:31 PM
A local boy kicked me in the butt last week
I just smiled at him and turned the other cheek
I really don't care, in fact I wish him well
'Cause I'll be laughing my head off when he's burning in hell
But I ain't never punched a tourist even if he deserved it
An Amish with a 'tude? You know that's unheard of
I never wear buttons but I got a cool hat
And my homies agree, I really look good in black...fool
If you come to visit, you'll be bored to tears
We haven't even paid the phone bill in 300 years
But we ain't really quaint, so please don't point and stare
We're just technologically impaired

ROFL Weird Al rules.

irishjayhawk
05-11-2007, 03:31 PM
:BS: Now here's the stereotypical ignorance I hate.
The article clearly gave you examples of positive Hip Hop artists such as Nas, Roots, Twalib, Mos Def, KRS-One, Dead Prez, etc.

Take your fuggin blinders off and stop taking things out of context.

I have to concede that point, but my actual point still stands.

Craash
05-11-2007, 03:32 PM
It's rather disheartening to put energy and time into convincing those who can't be convinced.

Some are truly and genuinely interested.
Others would rather rely upon the ignorance that has so long been a part of their existence.

It's easier to believe that there are no pre-existing inequities that are hurtful to Black communities than it is to read up on restrictive convenants that exist in their fair town to this day.

So why should I take time out to combat all of that?
With THOSE PEOPLE?

I'm confused, you've said in several posts now that you don't have the time or energy (something along those lines) to teach/combat/right the wrongs of this. I'm curious as to what your goal is when you post in topics such as this.

kstater
05-11-2007, 03:33 PM
I'm confused, you've said in several posts now that you don't have the time or energy (something along those lines) to teach/combat/right the wrongs of this. I'm curious as to what your goal is when you post in topics such as this.

See post 36.

Baby Lee
05-11-2007, 03:34 PM
I know precisely what the real issues are.
And the fact that I'm not taking responsibility for someone else who could similarly educate and arm themselves with that information doesn't make my commentary any less meaningful.

You want me to be the guide and the pathway to enlightment.
That's flattering, but I don't have all of the answers.

Neither do I have enough time in my day to dedicate to informing everyone.

The same bits of information that I've come by are available to all of you.

So at what point will you take responsibility for yourself and find out what can be had with time, effort and research?
So your sole function is to come here, call 'some people' 'bigots,' proclaim that you know what's really going on, get that rush of self-righteousness, and crawl back to your hole?

Craash
05-11-2007, 03:36 PM
See post 36.


Hehe. Ok, that made me laugh.

Still, regardless of how one feels about this particular issue, why would they take the time to involve themselves with an argument if they didn't hope to change the views of the people who opposed them?

Simply Red
05-11-2007, 03:37 PM
If you ever go temporarily insane, don't shoot somebody, like a lot of people do. Instead, try to get some weeding done, because you'd really be surprised.

Micjones
05-11-2007, 03:38 PM
Whitlock's argument is spot on.

It's only spot on if there are people-sized gaps in the information that you have access to.

I have yet to see anyone take on the substance of his argument.

Apparently you aren't very well read then.
But if you agree with Whitlock why would you go any further to find insightful commentary that reveals the fatal flaws in what he has to say?

Between the "f*ck the police, f*ck the system, bitches and hoes, ni***rs and n***as", I couldn't see the positivity. Maybe I'm blind.

Or maybe you've only acclimated yourself to a portion of what Rap music is and represents...

There was no out lash or reaction to DL Hughley's comedy skit. Just another contradiction.

There's backlash all over the web.
This is an assumption. Once again... Informed by a bias that Black communities don't hold themselves to the same standards as they do the Imus types.

The article concludes about wondering if the attacks on his character will continue. Again, not much about the substance of what he's saying but more about his "legacy", "character" and "perception".

Oddly the very things he's lambasted Sharpton and Jackson over.
One can only expect the same scrutiny in return. Especially when your reputation is as soiled as Whitlock's is.

Look, it seems both sides are in a state of ignorance and denial. Sure, rappers can make a boat load of money continuing with the current line of dialog. But at what cost?

Where are labels who are headed predominantly by people who don't look like rappers being held accountable for being the real beneficiaries of perpetuating this imagery?

Whitlock has personally invested himself in negative imagery perpetuated in Rap music. That's fact.

So to take anything he has to say on the matter to heart is just...well...silly.

wutamess
05-11-2007, 03:38 PM
It's rather disheartening to put energy and time into convincing those who can't be convinced.

Some are truly and genuinely interested.
Others would rather rely upon the ignorance that has so long been a part of their existence.

It's easier to believe that there are no pre-existing inequities that are hurtful to Black communities than it is to read up on restrictive convenants that exist in their fair town to this day.

So why should I take time out to combat all of that?
With THOSE PEOPLE?

Seriously dude...
You need to stick in what you believe and discuss it and (I know you probably don't givashit(but you're here for a reason)) they'll respect you for it. You don't come to a conversation... say your piece and then tell everyone to research your expressions. Otherwise you're "that dude". The victim poster that no one will take seriously when it comes to situations/discussions like this.

You have nothing but time... so let'er rip. Lots will disagree and some won't. Stick around... It's kinda nice not being the only A-A on the board that gets along with everyone.

wutamess
05-11-2007, 03:43 PM
FWIW: I listen to nothing but rap/hip hop.
I do however think it needs to change for the better. Just because I'm capable of thinking for myself doesn't mean the 13-14 yo black kid without a father (76% of A-A's born out of wedlock) is able to deny the influence.

Micjones
05-11-2007, 03:43 PM
Seriously dude...
You need to stick in what you believe and discuss it and (I know you probably don't givashit(but you're here for a reason)) they'll respect you for it. Otherwise you're "that dude". The victim poster that no one will take seriously when it comes to situations/discussions like this.

You have nothing but time... so let'er rip. Lots will disagree and some won't. Stick around... It's kinda nice not being the only A-A on the board that gets along with everyone.

In the minds of some people I'll be a victim by virtue of challenging the very ideal that America isn't "there yet".

For some people the mere mention of the fact that this country is still slanted is enough to strip me of all credibility. Despite mountains of evidence to substantiate my claims.

They can label me how they'd like.
Ultimately it isn't about anyone's individualized perception of me, but rather of what is real and true in this country.

Forget I said anything and there is STILL a problem.

Micjones
05-11-2007, 03:44 PM
FWIW: I listen to nothing but rap/hip hop.
I do however think it needs to change for the better. Just because I'm capable of thinking for myself doesn't mean the 13-14 yo black kid without a father (76% of A-A's born out of wedlock) is able to deny the influence.

It absolutely needs to change for the better.
We have a responsibility all our own. I've said as much many times.

That's why my music stands in staunch opposition to what can be heard on Top 40 Corporate radio.

Because it has to start with me.

keg in kc
05-11-2007, 03:45 PM
It's easier to believe that there are no pre-existing inequities that are hurtful to Black communities than it is to read up on restrictive convenants that exist in their fair town to this day. The fallacy is the idea that these inequities are only hurtful to a single community, or that it's confined to ethnic boundaries.

Whatever the intent, whether he was simply doing his job, whether he was seeking personal gain or whether he was truly speaking from his heart, there's substance to what Whitlock had to say.

In the end, he's a columnist. He deals in opinion, and his job is to incite discussion. He's done that. I hope that change comes with it, but I don't have much faith in human nature. We as a race, and by that I mean humans, too often fear to look into our own souls. It's an easier thing to find the wrong in others, than to strive to resolve the fallacies and faults within our own hearts and minds.

And that's all I have to say on this today.

irishjayhawk
05-11-2007, 03:46 PM
It's only spot on if there are people-sized gaps in the information that you have access to.
?


Apparently you aren't very well read then.
But if you agree with Whitlock why would you go any further to find insightful commentary that reveals the fatal flaws in what he has to say?
I have come across a few articles but admit I haven't followed it as close as I could. Please, point me in the direction of these articles.


Or maybe you've only acclimated yourself to a portion of what Rap music is and represents...
Yes, that's true. However, it's the portion that seems to sell and the portion that seems to resonate into culture.



There's backlash all over the web.
This is an assumption. Once again... Informed by a bias that Black communities don't hold themselves to the same standards as they do the Imus types.
Backlash in the web is the same as the backlash that was on every major network in light of the actual comments. There was an hour long sob story and apology needed. Yep, it's the same.


Oddly the very things he's lambasted Sharpton and Jackson over.
One can only expect the same scrutiny in return. Especially when your reputation is as soiled as Whitlock's is.
Yes, perhaps Whitlock has made an error. However, isn't he committing the EXACT same fallacy he says Whitlock is? That seems to me to be a contradiction.


Where are labels who are headed predominantly by people who don't look like rappers being held accountable for being the real beneficiaries of perpetuating this imagery?

I don't know the intricate workings of the RIAA and labels.


Whitlock has personally invested himself in negative imagery perpetuated in Rap music. That's fact.
And....?

So to take anything he has to say on the matter to heart is just...well...silly.

wutamess
05-11-2007, 03:47 PM
In the minds of some people I'll be a victim by virtue of challenging the very ideal that America isn't "there yet".

For some people the mere mention of the fact that this country is still slanted is enough to strip me of all credibility. Despite mountains of evidence to substantiate my claims.

Very good points and if they deny that point then they aren't "there yet". But from their point, they want us to stop using the "victim" card and blaming the man because they're NOT the man anymore with all of the resources available to EVERYONE to succeed.

We had a discussion about this a while ago. IMO... we have every right to play the victim (for 400 years and modern day slavery, etc) but it's pointless and does nothing but gives us an excuse not to succeed.

Let's move on & up.

Micjones
05-11-2007, 03:48 PM
The fallacy is the idea that these inequities are only hurtful to a single community, or that it's confined to ethnic boundaries.

I'd never suggest that there isn't also classism and sexism in play.
You're actually speaking to my point.

Misogyny, materialism and violence are AMERICAN themes.
Evident in ALL FORMS of media.

Whatever the intent, whether he was simply doing his job, whether he was seeking personal gain or whether he was truly speaking from his heart, there's substance to what Whitlock had to say.

Some substance... Yes, but without a more holistic view of the situation he isn't doing anyone any good.

In the end, he's a columnist. He deals in opinion, and his job is to incite discussion. He's done that. I hope that change comes with it, but I don't have much faith in human nature. We as a race, and by that I mean humans, too often fear to look into our own souls. It's an easier thing to find the wrong in others, than to strive to resolve the fallacies and faults within our own hearts and minds.

And that's all I have to say on this today.

WELL SAID.
This exists on a much higher plane...
I hope everyone can look deeper inside themselves and find truth.

Craash
05-11-2007, 03:48 PM
In the minds of some people . . . .

I"m not sure if I'm included in that by asking my previous question, but I really am interested in what you hope to gain, if it isn't to change the mind of some of "THOSE PEOPLE".

You seem very capable of backing your points, I just don't understand why you throw up your hands after you offer your opinion. It is obviously important to you (as it should be), so why not take a stronger stance if you are going to take the time to post in the first place?

Mr. Kotter
05-11-2007, 03:48 PM
I know precisely what the real issues are.
And the fact that I'm not taking responsibility for someone else who could similarly educate and arm themselves with that information doesn't make my commentary any less meaningful.

You want me to be the guide and the pathway to enlightenment.
That's flattering, but I don't have all of the answers.

Neither do I have enough time in my day to dedicate to informing everyone.

The same bits of information that I've come by are available to all of you.

So at what point will you take responsibility for yourself and find out what can be had with time, effort and research?
"Because that damn Google thing will pull up about 3,300,000 "hits"....and I ain't got time to look through all of 'em! 'Walker, Texas Ranger' is about to start on TVLand or the MovieChannel or something....ya know? " :banghead:

Heh. :p

Seriously though, you gave us de facto segregation, and Kozol.....throw us a few more nuggets, at least. Get us pointed in your direction. Is that really asking too much?

There are THOUSANDS of hypotheses out there, attempting to analyze the problems of urban America.....you seem pretty honed in. So rather than sort through the trash, give us the relative lay of the land in the area you seem to think.....has the answers, from your perspective.

Douche Baggins
05-11-2007, 03:48 PM
Can we move this eyesore to DC?

Baby Lee
05-11-2007, 03:48 PM
In the minds of some people I'll be a victim by virtue of challenging the very ideal that America isn't "there yet".

For some people the mere mention of the fact that this country is still slanted is enough to strip me of all credibility. Despite mountains of evidence to substantiate my claims.

They can label me how they'd like.
Ultimately it isn't about anyone's individualized perception of me, but rather of what is real and true in this country.

Forget I said anything and there is STILL a problem.
Not 'being there' is a virtue?
Who cares about anyone who thinks America is infallible? They're idiots.
So are you just here to announce that you're on some undefined side? Content that some people will think you're a martyr, and resigned that some will think you're a pariah, without ever exploring why either view, or any view, might or might not be justified?

wutamess
05-11-2007, 03:49 PM
It absolutely needs to change for the better.
We have a responsibility all our own. I've said as much many times.

That's why my music stands in staunch opposition to what can be heard on Top 40 Corporate radio.

Because it has to start with me.


Speaking of which... you have a CD or something? I don't mind supporting it and buying it.

Always looking for something new.

If you're uncomfortable with discussing the request... PM me.

Micjones
05-11-2007, 03:51 PM
Very good points and if they deny that point then they aren't "there yet". But from their point, they want us to stop using the "victim" card and blaming the man because they're NOT the man anymore with all of the resources available to EVERYONE to succeed.

We had a discussion about this a while ago. IMO... we have every right to play the victim (for 400 years and modern day slavery, etc) but it's pointless and does nothing but gives us an excuse not to succeed.

Let's move on & up.

We've always succeeded in spite of surmountable obstacles.
You know that as well as I do.

Playing the "victim" card never scored us any points.
Come on.

Acknowledging the fact that there are still pre-existing conditions that are hurtful to our communities isn't "playing victim". It's dealing in reality.

40 years following the Civil Rights Act there are still grandfathered policies and practices in play... To this very day.

You can't turn your back to those things and give the "bootstrap" speech.

wutamess
05-11-2007, 03:52 PM
Can we move this eyesore to DC?

Shaddup & go get laid.

Mr. Kotter
05-11-2007, 03:54 PM
Okay, slowly....we may be getting somewhere....

1. de facto segregation
2. Jonathon Kozol
3. restrictive covenants

am I missing anything??? :hmmm:

GOT to be more.....:(

Micjones
05-11-2007, 03:54 PM
I"m not sure if I'm included in that by asking my previous question, but I really am interested in what you hope to gain, if it isn't to change the mind of some of "THOSE PEOPLE".

You seem very capable of backing your points, I just don't understand why you throw up your hands after you offer your opinion. It is obviously important to you (as it should be), so why not take a stronger stance if you are going to take the time to post in the first place?

It's difficult to understand the magnitude of it all Craash.
It really is.

This is a cumbersome weight that I wake up with everyday.

I really wish that we could get away from even having such discussions, but they're still necessary.

I can't bring everyone up to speed.
I've presented information at every turn though.

That's why I'm left wondering why people think I haven't contributed the information they're clamoring for.

vailpass
05-11-2007, 03:54 PM
Shaddup & go get laid.
LMAO

Baby Lee
05-11-2007, 03:56 PM
It's difficult to understand the magnitude of it all Craash.
It really is.

This is a cumbersome weight that I wake up with everyday.

I really wish that we could get away from even having such discussions, but they're still necessary.

I can't bring everyone up to speed.
I've presented information at every turn though.

That's why I'm left wondering why people think I haven't contributed the information they're clamoring for.
http://www.sternshowclips.com/uploads/2007/5/1/RichardCallsBigFoot5.1.2007.mp3

kstater
05-11-2007, 03:57 PM
Can we move this eyesore to DC?

Discussing race make you uncomfortable?

wutamess
05-11-2007, 03:58 PM
Acknowledging the fact that there are still pre-existing conditions that are hurtful to our communities isn't "playing victim". It's dealing in reality.

40 years following the Civil Rights Act there are still grandfathered policies and practices in play... To this very day.



Agreed wholeheartedly... It's time to move on though. Too many successful people that "beat the odds" to stay stuck on such an issue.

In 2007 if you're using "40-400 years ago" (considering you're 9 times out of 10 more than likely to receive an advantage over the majority) as an excuse to keep the issue at hand then you're not moving on and stay content with playing the victim.

TODAY... Affirmative Action has leveled the playing field.

wutamess
05-11-2007, 03:59 PM
It's difficult to understand the magnitude of it all Craash.
It really is.

This is a cumbersome weight that I wake up with everyday.

I really wish that we could get away from even having such discussions, but they're still necessary.

I can't bring everyone up to speed.
I've presented information at every turn though.

That's why I'm left wondering why people think I haven't contributed the information they're clamoring for.


Let me see if I can pull up the thread in which you'd be proud I represented you and was blasted for eternity by the locals... brb.

Micjones
05-11-2007, 03:59 PM
Okay, slowly....we may be getting somewhere....

1. de facto segregation
2. Jonathon Kozol
3. restrictive covenants

am I missing anything??? :hmmm:

GOT to be more.....:(

Dude...

Did you not find that thread where I presented about a dozen pieces of information relative to the topic?

wutamess
05-11-2007, 04:02 PM
Check this out...

http://chiefsplanet.com/BB/showthread.php?t=132459&page=1&pp=40&highlight=crack

Really good discussion I was referring to. It's long but I represented your exact thoughts back then.

Craash
05-11-2007, 04:03 PM
It's difficult to understand the magnitude of it all Craash.
It really is.

This is a cumbersome weight that I wake up with everyday.

I really wish that we could get away from even having such discussions, but they're still necessary.

I can't bring everyone up to speed.
I've presented information at every turn though.

That's why I'm left wondering why people think I haven't contributed the information they're clamoring for.

Well, I'm not sure that I fully understand, although I appreciate your effort.

As far as it being your burden, either you choose to fight to convince/educate people, or you don't. In my humble view, you seem to choose to layout information, and call it a day. I believe you would be more effective if you either backed your opinions with everything you have, or let someone else fight the fight. I'm sure it is a painful and tiresome effort, I don't know that I would be up for carring the torch.

Micjones
05-11-2007, 04:03 PM
Agreed wholeheartedly... It's time to move on though. Too many successful people that "beat the odds" to stay stuck on such an issue.

In 2007 if you're using "40-400 years ago" (considering you're 9 times out of 10 more than likely to receive an advantage over the majority) as an excuse to keep the issue at hand then you're not moving on and stay content with playing the victim.

TODAY... Affirmative Action has leveled the playing field.

Leveled the playing field?

Despite median gains in family income and enrollment in higher learning institutions there is still twice the rate of unemployment for Blacks and rather large disparities in standard of living indices. Indices that haven't seen much gap-closing since the mid-70's.

Micjones
05-11-2007, 04:06 PM
Well, I'm not sure that I fully understand, although I appreciate your effort.

As far as it being your burden, either you choose to fight to convince/educate people, or you don't. In my humble view, you seem to choose to layout information, and call it a day. I believe you would be more effective if you either backed your opinions with everything you have, or let someone else fight the fight. I'm sure it is a painful and tiresome effort, I don't know that I would be up for carring the torch.

Don't patronize my efforts outside of this forum or compartmentalize all I'm doing based solely upon the expectation that posters here at CP have of me.

I live it... This isn't something that I'm merely picking up to play with whenever the mood strikes.

If you can't understand that the need demands ongoing efforts, personal responsibility to educate oneself and patience... Then I'm not sure what else I can tell you.

This is a long-standing American problem.
To expect that I can clean it all up and dissect it in 1 or 12 threads is being infinitely disingenuous.

Kotter has acknowledged that I've given him three crucial pieces of information to begin the discussion.

Funny thing is... All of my dissenters have yet to report back with their findings on those issues.

So I would ask you... Why you haven't taken them to task?

wutamess
05-11-2007, 04:08 PM
Leveled the playing field?

Despite median gains in family income and enrollment in higher learning institutions there is still twice the rate of unemployment for Blacks and rather large disparities in standard of living indices. Indices that haven't seen much gap-closing since the mid-70's.

I wonder if they break down how many unemployed are uneducated by race.

What jobs they had previous to unemployment?
Theres not really an excuse to STAY unemployed. And if there are, they're self induced (in general).

keg in kc
05-11-2007, 04:12 PM
TODAY... Affirmative Action has leveled the playing field.I've always had a problem deciding whether affirmative action is a correct approach or not. In essence, it's continuing to skew hiring practices based on race or gender. It may give minority individuals a more fair chance at a job (and it could be argued to be perhaps beyond 'fair' in some cases) but it still does not address the root prejudices that caused the problems in the first place. And again, it focuses on areas outside of simple qualifications. But at the same time, I see the necessity of it, at least historically, when people couldn't get a fair shake. But I wonder if it doesn't perpetuate the problem rather than resolve it.

The difficulty of the situation, in my opinion, is that I can't think of a constructive way to deal with the prejudice inherent in so much of our society. It's something that's imbedded in so many (American) cultures, an entity that large chunks of our population, be they black, white, asian or others - members of every ethnic group I've encounted so far- are taught prejudice against people who are different from them from birth by their particular community. The problem is, how do you stop parents from teaching these things to their children? And should you? I struggle with that. Am I right to think that other people should think like me?

I tend to lean towards the idea that all people are created equal, even though I know that idea is idealistim.

Craash
05-11-2007, 04:12 PM
Don't patronize my efforts outside of this forum or compartmentalize all I'm doing based solely upon the expectation that posters here at CP have of me.

. . . Why you haven't taken them to task?

Micjones,

First, I'm not patronizing your efforts at all. Everything I've said I said in a serious tone.

Second, the only thing I've asked of you is what you hope to gain here. You enter a conversation like this, and then state that you don't have the time or energy for "THOSE PEOPLE". I just want to understand what you hope to gain. My question isn't about the racial issue, but instead what you hope to gain in the manner you are attacking it.

As far as taking others to task, their goal is obvious, they want to bust your balls. ;)

Micjones
05-11-2007, 04:14 PM
I'd only be lying to myself if I said that Black communities don't have a responsibility all their own, but the problem is far from fixed Dubya.

We've got a long way to go.

Without Affirmative Action Black access to the most prestigious higher learning institutions would all but disappear.

We're not there yet.
We have to get these grandfathered policies off of the books and encourage policy that closes the gaps in academics, in lending, in housing practices, in our justice system and in the workforce.

Micjones
05-11-2007, 04:20 PM
Micjones,

First, I'm not patronizing your efforts at all. Everything I've said I said in a serious tone.

Second, the only thing I've asked of you is what you hope to gain here. You enter a conversation like this, and then state that you don't have the time or energy for "THOSE PEOPLE". I just want to understand what you hope to gain. My question isn't about the racial issue, but instead what you hope to gain in the manner you are attacking it.

As far as taking others to task, their goal is obvious, they want to bust your balls. ;)

I hope that people will begin an honest dialogue with themselves and carry that into their homes and communities.

In this particular thread I only wanted to point out that Whitlock isn't a suitable messenger and that even his message was flawed.

That's a small piece of it all I wanted to dissect.

keg in kc
05-11-2007, 04:24 PM
In this particular thread I only wanted to point out that Whitlock isn't a suitable messenger and that even his message was flawed. My hope is that the good points of the message aren't lost because of the messenger.

My fear is that it wouldn't matter who the messenger was.

Maybe that's the last thing I have to say. ROFL

Micjones
05-11-2007, 04:27 PM
My hope is that the good points of the message aren't lost because of the messenger.

The messenger is the least of my concern.
The message ITSELF is flawed.

Because it takes no thought to the fact that Rap music doesn't exist in a vacuum and cannot be expected to free of the imagery prevalent in the larger culture.

Again misogyny is an AMERICAN theme.
Visible in all forms of media. The irony here is that the message conveniently avoids that fact. Therefore... It's flawed and pointed at Rap music for all of the wrong reasons.

Does Rap need a facelift? Absolutely, but certainly no more than Hollywood or the four major television networks.

JohnnyV13
05-11-2007, 04:31 PM
You see, I actually think Whitlock's primary message was that it isn't racism holding back AA's anymore, its mostly their own culture.

Now, white american's like this view, because it absolves them from blame. Yet, I also believe it is largely true. Certainly racism exists, and certainly blacks (especially young men) experience different treatment than white young men. (note: i learned this one in law school. Once while hanging out with my classmates in a bar, we asked how many of us had been arrested. Most of us (mostly white upper middle class guys) had not, but all the black guys (who mostly came from a similarly upper middle class background) started laughing. ALL Of them had been arrested.) Yet, I don't think many workplaces evaluate employees on the color of their skin. I know I don't, and I think most people who grew up since the 60's don't.

Secondly, open expression of racism in most social circumstances will draw immediate criticism from nuetral observers. THe bottom line is that an ambitious and skilled AA will be able to find his way around racism, and will face less and less as he or she moves up the ladder of professional success. Now it is true up in the rare air they can still face racism from some of the wealthy dinosaurs at the very tip of the pyramid, yet those people are dying off rather rapidly.

Certainly they will have to conform to some behavior standards, but hey NEWSFLASH, whites, asians and hispanics have to conform too. For example, in the 90's we saw a rash of 50 somethings buying motorcycles. Many of them had to give up this icon of their youth to conform to a professional world hostile to that "hippie" image. Once in their 50's, they had achieved status in the workplace and could afford to indulge this taste.

Still, the question remains, why do some ethnic groups have trouble escaping poor economic success while asians now enjoy median incomes higher than both the average american and the average white american?People who assert racism is the source of all ills will say that america is less prejudiced against asians than AAs. Perhaps they are today, but in the post ww2 era when my filipino father immigrated to the US (1956) I can tell you he faced enormous prejudice.

When my parents married in the early 60's, Missouri still had a law on the books that said a marriage between an asian and caucasian was illegal and could be annullled (left over from the chinese rail worker era in the 1890s). Many people accused my father of being a "Jap" from post ww2 bitterness over the Pearl Harbor attack (not realizing or caring that my father was BOMBED by the japanese and watched his mother die due to lack of medical care during the japanese occupation of the phillipines).

Yet, the asians overcame this racism. I can tell you that the asian communities i've encountered believe they have overcome prejudice because they tend to highly value academic achievement.

vailpass
05-11-2007, 04:33 PM
Man it seems like I'm duckin dodgin bullets everyday
*****z hatin on me cause I got, hoes on the tray
But I gotta stay paid, gotta stay above water
Couldn't keep up with my hoes, that's when shit got harder
North Memphis where I'm from, I'm 7th Street bound
Where *****z all the time end up lost and never found
Man these girls think we prove thangs, leave a big head
They come hopin every night, they don't end up bein dead
Wait I got a snow bunny, and a black girl too
You pay the right price and they'll both do you
That's the way the game goes, gotta keep it strictly pimpin
Gotta have my hustle tight, makin change off these women, yeah

geronimo
05-11-2007, 04:34 PM
Read this sting of messages and, although my time is short, i felt compelled to commend each of you for your input on this subject. I could identify with most if not all of the comments. It was interesting to observe the dialogue evolve. Quiet as its kept this kind of open exchange is forbidden in certain sectors of our world. That said, race, sex and culture have long been confounding topics and harbingers of societal discord. I'm an American of African descent. Gentlemen your discussion has been enriching and insightful in the sense that it shows the divergent viewpoints, the stong-felt emotions but most importantly the willingess of most to open the can of worms for discussion. The latter being essential if we are to avoid or somehow mitigate the effects of the Imus episode, the Virgina Tech saga, the middle east conflict,...etc. On one thing in this forum we can all agree and that is our desire for a better world and a better football team in the fall. peace.

keg in kc
05-11-2007, 04:35 PM
Again misogyny is an AMERICAN theme.
Visible in all forms of media. The irony here is that the message conveniently avoids that fact. Therefore... It's flawed and pointed at Rap music for all of the wrong reasons.

Does Rap need a facelift? Absolutely, but certainly no more than Hollywood or the four major television networks.
I'm probably one of the loudest voices around here when it comes to talking about the retarted (CP spelling) way that American society glorifies violence while vilifying nudity and sexuality, but, even so, I don't think there's any possibility that you could convince me that Hollywood and the four major networks are even in the same universe as hip-hop when it comes to misogyny.

In fact, I would even go so far as to say that television in particular, but also movies, to a degree, are much closer to misandry than misogyny. It's a marketting thing, and the reality is that women are now the primary target audience of Hollywood and the big 4.

'Hamas' Jenkins
05-11-2007, 04:39 PM
What the hell?? Whitlock critiques an Uncle Tom ploy by Rutgers and he's labeled an Uncle Tom???

I'm sorry, but the guy has done a lot to raise the consciousness level of the AA community.

He calls out Scoop Jackson for being nothing more than a minstrel show on ESPN and gets fired for it, and now, when he argues that the AA community should focus on the most deleterious aspect of their culture--the violence and misogyny glorified through rap and certain segments of hip hop life---rather than this Imus sideshow---he gets lambasted for it.

Wow...just wow.

geronimo
05-11-2007, 04:41 PM
Johnny, i gotta go but your comments have expanded the discussion to even deeper depths. The long and short of your comments is "we did it why can't they" and that discussion will require a serious look on so many different levels. A good start for you might be "The Crest (sp) Theory of Color Confrontation" which attempts to explain the source of the deep-seated disdain for people of african descent among other ethic groups primarily caucasion but not exclusively. hate to lurk and leave but i gotta pic up my kid.

keg in kc
05-11-2007, 04:41 PM
I think the most interesting period in race relations in the US (assuming the country survivest that long...) will come in the next 30-40-years when we hit the stage where everyone in the nation was born after the events of the Civil Rights movement. It's not something I often think about, but my parents were actually born into a world where segregation was a reality. That blows my mind.

Micjones
05-11-2007, 04:42 PM
I don't think there's any possibility that you could convince me that Hollywood and the four major networks are even in the same universe as hip-hop when it comes to misogyny.

After having read this I'm not sure I could convince you either.
Despite all of the evidence I could present.

You seem unmovable on the issue.

I could've sworn I saw "Girls Gone Wild" ads running incessantly on television. If that's not the commodification of women I don't know what is.

geronimo
05-11-2007, 04:43 PM
Hamas, I think the real point of the open letter is however well-intentioned JW is not an effective messanger.

keg in kc
05-11-2007, 04:43 PM
After having read this I'm not sure I could convince you either.
Despite all of the evidence I could present.Provide some evidence...I could've sworn I saw "Girls Gone Wild" ads running incessantly on television. If that's not the commodification of women I don't know what is.So...ads for pornography running at 4 in the morning (on cable) mean that Hollywood and the 4 major networks are misogynistic?

Baby Lee
05-11-2007, 04:44 PM
What the hell?? Whitlock critiques an Uncle Tom ploy by Rutgers and he's labeled an Uncle Tom???

I'm sorry, but the guy has done a lot to raise the consciousness level of the AA community.

He calls out Scoop Jackson for being nothing more than a minstrel show on ESPN and gets fired for it, and now, when he argues that the AA community should focus on the most deleterious aspect of their culture--the violence and misogyny glorified through rap and certain segments of hip hop life---rather than this Imus sideshow---he gets lambasted for it.

Wow...just wow.
Man, was that unexpected.
Hamas, if anyone can get Micjones to lay down some specific arguments regarding his nebulous positions that Whitlock's premise is fatally flawed and America hasn't reached it's virtue of not being there yet, I think it'd be you.
You're on the case bud.

Seriously Mic, if anything Hamas is gonna school you on BEHALF of your own line of thought, if it ever emerges in a cognizable form.

Micjones
05-11-2007, 04:48 PM
THe bottom line is that an ambitious and skilled AA will be able to find his way around racism, and will face less and less as he or she moves up the ladder of professional success. Now it is true up in the rare air they can still face racism from some of the wealthy dinosaurs at the very tip of the pyramid, yet those people are dying off rather rapidly.

Will Smith is one of the most successful Black actors in Tinsel Town's history and he, himself, will tell you that he still encounters racism in his profession.

The fact that one can succeed in spite of isn't exactly a reason to foster the conditions that handicap those who can't.

The system still needs revision.

Baby Lee
05-11-2007, 04:49 PM
I could've sworn I saw "Girls Gone Wild" ads running incessantly on television. If that's not the commodification of women I don't know what is.
Difference is;
A good portion of America is either disgusted by GGW or ignore it.
Those who consume it don't turn around and try to emulate the phenomenon on a daily basis. Not a slate of young men running around asking random chicks to flash tits and beav, except Mardi Gras which considerably predates GGW.

keg in kc
05-11-2007, 04:52 PM
Here's the current list of the top-20 shows of the last calendar year, just to use as a representative slice for the sake of argument:

American Idol (x2)
Dancing with the Stars (x4)
CSI
Grey's Anatomy
House
CSI: Miami
Desperate Housewives
NBC Sunday Night Football
Without a Trace
Deal or No Deal
Two and a Half Men
Survivor: Cook Islands
CSI: NY
Cold Case
Criminal Minds
NCIS

Which of those shows are misogynistic?

(and to reference an earlier point I made, an interesting question might be 'which of those shows are targetted towards women?')

keg in kc
05-11-2007, 04:56 PM
The top 25 this week at the (Hollywood) Box office, same questions apply:

Spider-Man 3
Disturbia
Fracture
The Invisible
Next
Lucky You
Meet the Robinsons
Blades of Glory
Hot Fuzz
Are We Done Yet?
Vacancy
The Condemned
Wild Hogs
Kickin' It Old Skool
In the Land of Women
Perfect Stranger
The Namesake
Black Book
300
The Reaping
The Hoax
Year of the Dog
The Lives of Others
Firehouse Dog
Night at the Museum

JohnnyV13
05-11-2007, 04:57 PM
Johnny, i gotta go but your comments have expanded the discussion to even deeper depths. The long and short of your comments is "we did it why can't they" and that discussion will require a serious look on so many different levels. A good start for you might be "The Crest (sp) Theory of Color Confrontation" which attempts to explain the source of the deep-seated disdain for people of african descent among other ethic groups primarily caucasion but not exclusively. hate to lurk and leave but i gotta pic up my kid.


My situation is even a bit more odd than it appears. While my father is asian, I look TOTALLY caucasian. No one would suspect I am anything but an upper middle class white guy unless I tell them. I am in the position of being admitted to both asian and caucasian groups, so there is no mystery for me about "what do those other people think".

Micjones
05-11-2007, 05:00 PM
Provide some evidence...So...ads for pornography running at 4 in the morning (on cable) mean that Hollywood and the 4 major networks are misogynistic?

How about the commodification of women in shows like "Deal Or No Deal" which utilizes 2 dozen some odd nameless women decked in cocktail dresses as drapery?

Or the creative editing in shows like "The Real World" that depict women as sex-starved kittens with an appetite to copulate at every turn?

Or the same creative editing in shows like "The Bachelor" that depicts women as catty, combative and mean-spirited?

Or how about "America's Next Top Model" which makes as much usage of the words 'bitch' and 'ho' as any Top 40 Rap record?

'Hamas' Jenkins
05-11-2007, 05:01 PM
Here's the current list of the top-20 shows of the last calendar year, just to use as a representative slice for the sake of argument:

American Idol (x2)
Dancing with the Stars (x4)
CSI
Grey's Anatomy
House
CSI: Miami
Desperate Housewives
NBC Sunday Night Football
Without a Trace
Deal or No Deal
Two and a Half Men
Survivor: Cook Islands
CSI: NY
Cold Case
Criminal Minds
NCIS

Which of those shows are misogynistic?

(and to reference an earlier point I made, an interesting question might be 'which of those shows are targetted towards women?')

Well, it depends on your view of misogyny. Many feminists would take umbrage to Deal or No Deal (parading women around as they hold up trophies), Des. Housewives, Grey's Anatomy, House, among others.

Baby Lee
05-11-2007, 05:10 PM
How about the commodification of women in shows like "Deal Or No Deal" which utilizes 2 dozen some odd nameless women decked in cocktail dresses as drapery?

Or the creative editing in shows like "The Real World" that depict women as sex-starved kittens with an appetite to copulate at every turn?

Or the same creative editing in shows like "The Bachelor" that depicts women as catty, combative and mean-spirited?

Or how about "America's Next Top Model" which makes as much usage of the words 'bitch' and 'ho' as any Top 40 Rap record?
Are you submitting that women like those that show up on DonD, TRW, TB, and ANTM suffer from the portrayals like nappy headed hos do?

'Hamas' Jenkins
05-11-2007, 05:12 PM
Back to the main thrust of this thread:

The reason why these arguments so often get derailed is because people want to resort to one side or the other without seeing the implicit flaws in both. Of course, such an attempt often leaves you with few friends, and the majority are bickering from either pole.


The gist of Whitlock's argument is that Rap/Hip-Hop culture is fundamentally undermining the Black Community because the vast majority of the cultural products from it (not all, but most) promote the following:

1) Drug Use
2) Violence
3) Misogyny
4) Stupidity/Lack of Education


Now, this is a razor's edge to balance, because who is producing most of this "stuff"....Blacks. Being confronted with the concept of undermining your own race, particularly when your race holds a disadvantaged place in society would be a very troubling concept to try and reconcile. Now, that doesn't mean that the white community doesn't do things detrimental towards Blacks, and Whitlock isn't arguing that they aren't.

What he is instead arguing for is the Black community to investigate how it is undermining itself, particularly through various forms of media.

Civil Rights, Affirmative Action, a push for education won't go anywhere when the message that the Black community is constantly bombarded with comes from 50-Cent or the Yin Yang Twins.

Furthermore, the problem that he sees is that the spokesmen of the Black community, those who are given the highest regard in relation to social and cultural issues--Sharpton and the Reverend, never take on rap music. Why not?? Are they beholden to certain interests, or are they afraid of being labeled Uncle Toms by the Uncle Toms who make the music??


Unfortunately, most people aren't intelligent or willing enough to think things through from a nuanced level.

White Corporate America helps to fund these Black Uncle Tom Acts, but instead of focusing on both, the Black community only focuses on WCA, which it is ill-equipped to deal with.

Ultimately, what Whitlock wants is grassroots black activism somewhat like the Hippocratic oath--first do no harm (to your fellow black man, in this case); Yet whenever he attempts to espouse this, the powers that be in the Black community, who are overwhelmingly interested in critiquing WCA and completely ignoring the problems that Blacks create for Blacks shout him down as being an Uncle Tom...which is a particularly sad moment of reflexive irony.

htismaqe
05-11-2007, 05:14 PM
Well, it depends on your view of misogyny. Many feminists would take umbrage to Deal or No Deal (parading women around as they hold up trophies), Des. Housewives, Grey's Anatomy, House, among others.

House? Do you watch the show?

keg in kc
05-11-2007, 05:16 PM
How about the commodification of women in shows like "Deal Or No Deal" which utilizes 2 dozen some odd nameless women decked in cocktail dresses as drapery?How is this a demonstration of misogyny, i.e. a hatred of or strong prejudice against women? Wheel of Fortune is misogynistic, as well, since Vanna White's been turning letters in a dress for all those years? Oh wait, bad example, we're talking about network TV.

What's misogynistic about it?Or the creative editing in shows like "The Real World" that depict women as sex-starved kittens with an appetite to copulate at every turn?Not a big 4 network...
Or the same creative editing in shows like "The Bachelor" that depicts women as catty, combative and mean-spirited?It's a reality show, so creative editing or no, what those women are shown to do is actually what they did; it's not scripted. I guess you could say they went out of their way in finding women who fit the image they intended to portrey, but I wasn't involved in the process, so I don't know. Either way, I'm not sure how replaying actual events is misogynistic.Or how about "America's Next Top Model" which makes as much usage of the words 'bitch' and 'ho' as any Top 40 Rap record?Not a big 4 network...

Anyway, I've made my point and I'm not particularly interested in getting into a long drawn-out debate over this. The reality is that the target audience of the great majority of network television shows (and films today) is women, with families coming in a close second.

That's not to say that there aren't niche networks or films, whether it's MTV or BET or Comedy Central, or independent films or pornography, which are all created for specific (and generally small) audiences, but you aimed the crosshairs at the big dogs, network TV and Hollywood...

'Hamas' Jenkins
05-11-2007, 05:16 PM
House? Do you watch the show?

Did I say those were my views??


Yes, I watch House...a feminist could critique it based on these things:

1) Cameron's desire to always need to be with a man in order to have a semblance of worth, her constant need to play up or suck up to males in charge
2) Cuddy's deference to House despite the fact that she is in a position of relative power. She lets him make all the decisions, when in reality it is she who runs the hospital.

I'm not saying that these are my opinions, nor did I say that in the aforementioned post. Please, can we not derail the initial thurst of this thread??

Mr. Kotter
05-11-2007, 05:19 PM
Dude...

Did you not find that thread where I presented about a dozen pieces of information relative to the topic?

A dozen pieces? Wow....eh, I guessed I missed it. Got a quick link? :shrug:

Otherwise, I can do a search....later. Thanks.

htismaqe
05-11-2007, 05:20 PM
What the hell?? Whitlock critiques an Uncle Tom ploy by Rutgers and he's labeled an Uncle Tom???

I'm sorry, but the guy has done a lot to raise the consciousness level of the AA community.

He calls out Scoop Jackson for being nothing more than a minstrel show on ESPN and gets fired for it, and now, when he argues that the AA community should focus on the most deleterious aspect of their culture--the violence and misogyny glorified through rap and certain segments of hip hop life---rather than this Imus sideshow---he gets lambasted for it.

Wow...just wow.

PREE-cisely.

:clap:

htismaqe
05-11-2007, 05:23 PM
Did I say those were my views??


Yes, I watch House...a feminist could critique it based on these things:

1) Cameron's desire to always need to be with a man in order to have a semblance of worth, her constant need to play up or suck up to males in charge
2) Cuddy's deference to House despite the fact that she is in a position of relative power. She lets him make all the decisions, when in reality it is she who runs the hospital.

I'm not saying that these are my opinions, nor did I say that in the aforementioned post. Please, can we not derail the initial thurst of this thread??

Not trying to derail the thread.

Still fail to see how House belongs on a list of shows "demeaning" women.

House treats everybody the same, and everybody treats him the same. It has nothing at all to do with their gender.

'Hamas' Jenkins
05-11-2007, 05:25 PM
Not trying to derail the thread.

Still fail to see how House belongs on a list of shows "demeaning" women.

House treats everybody the same, and everybody treats him the same. It has nothing at all to do with their gender.


Umm...that post wasn't about House...at all. It was about the women on the show

:)

keg in kc
05-11-2007, 05:27 PM
It's not derailing the thread, it's a discussion about whether network TV and Hollywood films are as misogynistic as hip-hop, and whether too much emphasis is being placed on hip-hop and not enough on media at large.

As for specific women on House, I'm not sure how showing 1 or 2 characters with those characteristics is an endictment on the entire gender. House himself is an asshole. That's not demeaning men in general. The reality is that individuals can be (and are) weak and have problems, regardless of gender. And I've only watched the show a couple of times, but the men seemed as apt to let him walk over them as the women.

If the idea is that every single character has to show the best characteristics, and be strong and perfect, then, well, TV is going to be both dull and even less realistic than it is now.

And I really should go do something else, rofl.

htismaqe
05-11-2007, 05:29 PM
Umm...that post wasn't about House...at all. It was about the women on the show

:)

You're baiting me into hijacking this thread, aren't you? :D

Seriously, I can't for the life of me see why women would be upset by the portrayal of Cuddy and Cameron on "House".

I guess I've never paid attention to anything related to gender (or race, with Foreman). It's just another aspect of what I consider to be the most interesting cast of characters on TV.

Baby Lee
05-11-2007, 05:32 PM
Did I say those were my views??


Yes, I watch House...a feminist could critique it based on these things:

1) Cameron's desire to always need to be with a man in order to have a semblance of worth, her constant need to play up or suck up to males in charge
2) Cuddy's deference to House despite the fact that she is in a position of relative power. She lets him make all the decisions, when in reality it is she who runs the hospital.

I'm not saying that these are my opinions, nor did I say that in the aforementioned post. Please, can we not derail the initial thurst of this thread??
I think those portrayals are responsible because they deal with those traits, critiquing them as well as any feminist would.
Cameron doesn't desire to be with a man. Chase is weekly reiterating his desire to be with her and form a commitment, and she's totally uninterested. She desires to care for the afflicted. It stems from her caring for her dead husband to the very end. Her overtures to House was seen through by House as a reclamation/nurse in shining armor complex regarding his chronic pain.
Cuddy's situation is very nuanced. She both wants to rein House in because she knows it's her duty and within her power, but she also recognizes his singular abilities and the value in giving him a little free reign, a situation she is constantly weighing.
Without foibles and conflict there wouldn't be any drama, not the way this story is told. It's the story of an irascible genius surrounded by very capable people and how they deal with his irascability and his genius.

scott free
05-11-2007, 05:33 PM
A lot of whites are always going to be predjudiced to one degree or another & but in my view, that, for many blacks, is where the conversation starts & stops. It too often seems that white racism is the only kind that is discussed.

I've rarely been in a discussion about this with black guys, where they delve into black peoples disdain for whites.

An easy of example of what i would call, for lack of a better term, Cultural Racism is a typical Jay-Z concert, its a fact that your going to find about 1/2 of the audience is going to be white...hey, no problem. Now, go to a metal show or even say...a U2 show & you can count the blacks there on 2 hands. Now you might say "hey, its a matter of taste & nothing more"...but why is that??? My opinion is that too many blacks are scared to DEATH of being seen as identifying with anything white.

Another example, (though i have seen it be quite different in major cities, but certainly not in average town America) is that you will see a dizzying variety of white women who are comfortable dating black guys...but pretty much the only time i see a black woman with a white guy is if he's wearing the typical hip-hop outfit & generally identifying himself as a black guy. I wouldnt have a problem dating a black girl, but, especially around here, they wont give ya a second glance if you dont fit the profile. My point is that whites seem to be way more accepting & open of different cultures, whereas there is, IMO, a MAJOR taboo with blacks being seen as identifying with any white culture.

Ya never quite know how the Planet is gonna take some statements, i'm just telling the truth as seen through my eyes. I suppose the whole point of this post, is that too many blacks WILLFULLY segregate & differentiate themselves in a variety of ways & then blame whites because we dont understand them.

'Hamas' Jenkins
05-11-2007, 05:39 PM
I think those portrayals are responsible because they deal with those traits, critiquing them as well as any feminist would.
Cameron doesn't desire to be with a man. Chase is weekly reiterating his desire to be with her and form a commitment, and she's totally uninterested. She desires to care for the afflicted. It stems from her caring for her dead husband to the very end. Her overtures to House was seen through by House as a reclamation/nurse in shining armor complex regarding his chronic pain.
Cuddy's situation is very nuanced. She both wants to rein House in because she knows it's her duty and within her power, but she also recognizes his singular abilities and the value in giving him a little free reign, a situation she is constantly weighing.
Without foibles and conflict there wouldn't be any drama, not the way this story is told. It's the story of an irascible genius surrounded by very capable people and how they deal with his irascability and his genius.

I'd say that's a fair response...can we agree to end the hijacking now :D

scott free
05-11-2007, 05:40 PM
I know...my post got off track a 'lil & went off into one of my own areas of wonder.

It'll be ok.

keg in kc
05-11-2007, 05:42 PM
As far as I know, I'm the only white guy on here who's been married to a black woman, and I can assure you, I've never worn a "typical hip-hop outfit".

ROFL

I will, however, confirm the idea that there is an undercurrent of anti-white sentiment in at least some part of the black community, because I have encounted it directly. I think it's probably comparable to the converse that you find in the white community. It's by no means 'everyone' but it's definitely there. Additionally, according to my ex-wife, as I recall (it's been 4 years since the divorce...) there was a double-standard when it came to dating, where it was kosher for black men to date white women, but black women were not supposed to be with white men. She apparently got regular heat for that, and she was also criticized on a number of occasions for being 'high yellow', meaning she was light-skinned. Actually "ostracized" might be a better word. She was seen as 'not dark enough', and it was assumed that one of her parents was white.

I do not, however, pass this stuff on as an excuse for the perpetuation of white ignorance and prejudice. Simply to shine some light on the reality that change needs to come from a lot of different directions if we're ever going to be united.

'Hamas' Jenkins
05-11-2007, 05:43 PM
I know...my post got off track a 'lil & went off into one of my own areas of wonder.

It'll be ok.

Actually, yours was on-track. I was a culprit of the hijacking as well :)

scott free
05-11-2007, 05:48 PM
As far as I know, I'm the only white guy on here who's been married to a black woman, and I can assure you, I've never worn a "typical hip-hop outfit".



I alluded to this already, you are, in my experience the definite exception & not the rule.

Not one bit of my post was intended to excuse white ignorance either, not sure where you got that from.

keg in kc
05-11-2007, 05:54 PM
Not one bit of my post was intended to excuse white ignorance either, not sure where you got that from.That was a preemptive statement. Sometimes when I talk about this stuff, people think I'm doing it to excuse white prejudice.

JohnnyV13
05-11-2007, 06:44 PM
Will Smith is one of the most successful Black actors in Tinsel Town's history and he, himself, will tell you that he still encounters racism in his profession.

The fact that one can succeed in spite of isn't exactly a reason to foster the conditions that handicap those who can't.

The system still needs revision.


Is it the system that needs to be changed? I believe there is a limit to what legal and social pressure can achieve in terms of racial equality. You can punish and ridicule racist individuals, you can force them to "hide their spots", but you won't change their heart. I suspect the only way to take care of a certain level of prejudice is simply time. In twenty years, there will be no one in the workplace who can remember legally condoned racial prejudice.

I am reminded of a multi millionare who was a close friend of my father. While he accepted my asian father, this man asked him, "What do you think of that condolezza rice?" This man was in his early nineties and simply had trouble accepting a black woman in a leadership position like Sec of State. This man was NOT a bad man, he simply could not overcome the cultural prejudices of his youth. (I have a similar problem with homosexuality. I have come to realize gay-bashing really isn't right. However, it's still a part of our culture. Even today, young men perceive gay men as "weak", especially in athletic fandom. Gay bashing was COMMON when I was in high school. I'm not so sure its a lot better today, except its highly frowned upon at the university level. Yet, go into any sports chat room and you won't have to wait long to see open gay bashing.) To rid ourselves of some level of racism, we will simply have to wait until people who were raised to accept racism and sexism die off.

Another force against racism is the free market. Organizations that exercise racist practices end up damaging themselves in the marketplace, IF a significant segment of the society is not racist. Non-racist organizations will be able to acquire talent and serve markets that racist organizations cannot access.

The problem with these solutions are they do little to help people in the marketplace today.

Guru
05-11-2007, 07:07 PM
This idiot does not listen to the lyrics of popular hip hop songs.

Slick32
05-11-2007, 08:39 PM
I've read portions of this thread and don't think I'll go through all of the posts, but I have to support Whitlock on this one.

The think about racism is that it will exist until someone, everyone stops. There is more than ethnic differences around and that have to face.

What we have to do, as a race (human race), is to learn that we can co-exist with those that are different (excluding Raider and Bronco fans of course).

I've always tried to treat people as friends until they prove to be different and then I just avoid confrontation with those that prove to be other than friends. It doesn't always work, but no plan is bullet proof.

What Whitlock did took some amount of courage. He confronted racism in his own ethnic group and (oh how I hate to say this) I respect him for that courage. For anyone to call him out for that is beyond any behavior that I can imagine.

He was right in what he did and earned his time in the limelight. The length of his stay there will be temporary, but it is deserved.

Logical
05-11-2007, 08:55 PM
Here's the current list of the top-20 shows of the last calendar year, just to use as a representative slice for the sake of argument:

American Idol (x2)
Dancing with the Stars (x4)
CSI
Grey's Anatomy
House
CSI: Miami
Desperate Housewives
NBC Sunday Night Football
Without a Trace
Deal or No Deal
Two and a Half Men
Survivor: Cook Islands
CSI: NY
Cold Case
Criminal Minds
NCIS

Which of those shows are misogynistic?

(and to reference an earlier point I made, an interesting question might be 'which of those shows are targetted towards women?')I would say Greys Anatomy and Dancing with the Stars are definitely targeted towards women. Next up would be Deal or No Deal and American Idol as second for women.

Mr. Kotter
05-11-2007, 09:43 PM
I would say Greys Anatomy and Dancing with the Stars are definitely targeted towards women. Next up would be Deal or No Deal and American Idol as second for women.

:spock:

ROFL

Read the thread, Jim....heh

COchief
05-11-2007, 10:45 PM
This is without a doubt the most intelligent thread I have ever viewed on CP. Thanks to everyone who contributed well thought out responses.

Throughout American history any race, culture, or nationality that has immigrated to the US has faced a battle of acceptance. How were the Italians treated when they arrived in New York? How about the Irish, everyone just loved them didn't they? Nobody seems to complain about the Germans or Japanese (and Asians in general) and they were busy killing Americans just a few decades ago. If anyone is wondering how all this hatred and discrimination just melted away, I will put the answer into extremely simplistic terms: They came, they worked their Asses off, and they assimilated into the American culture.

AAs continue to draw a line in the sand; such as the author did countless times with the use of "them" and "sides". The use of the term "Uncle Tom" to me is ludicrous. What exactly is an "Uncle Tom"? Someone who has an education, speaks proper English, and presents a professional appearance? This behavior is viewed as a negative among AAs? Are you kidding me? Talk about a warped view of the world. AAs seem to take every opportunity to separate themselves from the general population of the US, from clothes, to music, to manner of speech, what you choose to drive, what sports you play, and who you associate with. You don’t see the majority of Asians hanging out on street corners in Kimonos and Kung Fu attire. It isn’t because they “sold out” their culture; it is because they conformed to the generally accepted cultural norms. They attempted to assimilate and “fit in” with the people of the US, not separate themselves from it.

As far as slavery goes, I feel many Americans have been mislead by our History Books (aka your heaping helping of white guilt). Here are some FACTS about slavery in the US.

There were more white slaves than black slaves.
Essentially any unattached poor male in Britain was brought up on trump charges and sentenced to seven years hard labor in the US. Black slaves were owned for life, white “criminals” for seven years. So riddle me this: How do you treat rental cars? How about a car you owned for life? Would you buy a used rental car? Do you treat a motel room the same as your home?

Two out of the top five slave owners in Louisiana were black men, I’m Irish-German…Where’s my reparations bitch?

scott free
05-11-2007, 10:57 PM
Theres something that REALLY pisses me off about being a thread killer, particularly with issues such as these.

Where are you at wutamess???...who's opinions i've thought so highly of.

What about you, o eloquent & informed one Micjones???

Its EXACTLY what i'm talking about with black dudes...& dont even dare say..."aw, who is this Scott Free stranger, i dont answer to him"...,WHY do blacks hold themselves SO seperate from whites & then wonder why in the hell we cant figure it out???

An educated & well versed in "ENGLISH" or raised in a "good" neighborhood black man is regarded in many black circles as a fraud...not a "real" black...i SWEAR to my Lord God, nothing makes me more sick than this attitude. Can anyone say, Bryant Gumble???...the perpetual joke boy of the black community, as if being "street & ignorant" is the HEIGHT of cool. It NEVER fails to KILL me how intelligence is equated to "sellout" in the black community that i have grown up around.

MUCH of "White America" needs a slap in the face for their old time ignorance...but "Black America" needs a punch in the gut for their new time ignorance.

Just my opinion...you wanna hash it out with some plain thought & words??? Lets do it, i'm serious...I AM AN OPEN BOOK.

LTforMVP
05-11-2007, 11:05 PM
Theres something that REALLY pisses me off about being a thread killer, particularly with issues such as these.

Where are you at wutamess???...who's opinions i've thought so highly of.

What about you, o eloquent & informed one Micjones???

Its EXACTLY what i'm talking about with black dudes...& dont even dare say..."aw, who is this Scott Free stranger, i dont answer to him"...,WHY do blacks hold themselves SO seperate from whites & then wonder why in the hell we cant figure it out???

An educated & well versed in "ENGLISH" or raised in a "good" neighborhood black man is regarded in many black circles as a fraud...not a "real" black...i SWEAR to my Lord God, nothing makes me more sick than this attitude. Can anyone say, Bryant Gumble???...the perpetual joke boy of the black community, as if being "street & ignorant" is the HEIGHT of cool. It NEVER fails to KILL me how intelligence is equated to "sellout" in the black community that i have grown up around.

MUCH of "White America" needs a slap in the face for their old time ignorance...but "Black America" needs a punch in the gut for their new time ignorance.

Just my opinion...you wanna hash it out with some plain thought & words??? Lets do it, i'm serious...I AM AN OPEN BOOK.

Bryant Gumble isn't considered cool by any community white or black.

Phobia
05-11-2007, 11:09 PM
From now on, I'm only hanging out with black dudes.

scott free
05-11-2007, 11:10 PM
Bryant Gumble isn't considered cool by any community white or black.

Do you know how to FUKING READ???

LTforMVP
05-11-2007, 11:16 PM
Do you know how to FUKING READ???

Hold on a sec Im calling up my black friends to see if they think the well spoken and intelligent Johnnie Cochran is a sellout

scott free
05-11-2007, 11:21 PM
Yep, i have a buzz, but i swear on my Grandfather i'd say all of the same things all over again...to any one of you here.

Its been very well covered whats wrong with whites... but JUST ONCE, tell me how the black community can start to cure its own problems.

Phobia
05-11-2007, 11:23 PM
The only way to solve the problems is to completely integrate. So, send your black women over to my house and I'll integrate society. I'm doing it for mankind.

scott free
05-11-2007, 11:24 PM
Hold on a sec Im calling up my black friends to see if they think the well spoken and intelligent Johnnie Cochran is a sellout

Have you seen those guys lately???...

...By that I mean my NUTS of course...

...you should get down there & say hello again sometime...

Mr. Kotter
05-11-2007, 11:24 PM
From now on, I'm only hanging out with black dudes.
Cool. Wutamess and I have you all to ourselves now. Be sure to bring along Pink.

LTforMVP
05-11-2007, 11:29 PM
Have you seen those guys lately???...

...By that I mean my NUTS of course...

...you should get down there & say hello again sometime...

Is that your traditional response when somebody calls you out on misinformed and uneducated bullshit?

wutamess
05-11-2007, 11:30 PM
Can anyone say, Bryant Gumble???...the perpetual joke boy of the black community, as if being "street & ignorant" is the HEIGHT of cool. It NEVER fails to KILL me how intelligence is equated to "sellout" in the black community that i have grown up around.

MUCH of "White America" needs a slap in the face for their old time ignorance...but "Black America" needs a punch in the gut for their new time ignorance.

Just my opinion...you wanna hash it out with some plain thought & words??? Lets do it, i'm serious...I AM AN OPEN BOOK.


I'm here... been reading after I came back from "having a life" for a few hours.

Anyhow... Recently I've discovered that people fear or denounce things they don't understand. So To answer your ?, I think the reason a person coming back from prison is held in higher regards than a person graduating from college because it's a sense of "understanding"? At the same time... you'd see that those celebrating the return from incarceration really don't have their shit together anyways so who really gives a shit?

If everyone in that circle feels like they're the victim then they can empathize with the released prisoner... because after all... "the man has kept them down".

My mom's side hasn't celebrated no one's homecoming (out of 1) but we've celebrated multiple college graduations (5 including mine).
On my dad's side we have semi-celebrated 1 homecoming (out of 3) and we've celebrated exactly 0 college graduations (I'm the only graduate on that side). So in that example... there's some truth to my theory.

Having said that. if you come home with an education... You're "stuck up"? You're a "know it all" because you've ventured out in unchartered territory and rode the train to your chance out of the victimized content crowd.

Another example... I was reading up on self hypnosis and such to tighten some things up that I'm already good at as well as some I'm not so good at... I wanted to get more strict on my already strict budget. I also wanted to lose about 25-35lbs.

I researched self hypnosis because, 1. I think it's cool & 2. I'd like to know if it really works. I tell my mother I've been thinking about it and the first thing out of her mouth is nothing but negativity.

I then tell her about it and the fact that you're really just training your sub-conscience and you're fully aware of everything the entire time. Right then and there I realized that people fear what they don't know.

So people fear an Uncle Tom/Bryant Gumble/Colin Powell because they're educated and they think of themselves as inferior when in fact we're that same N* we were before we received the education.

Actually, You've touched on a point I've been dealing with personally in my life at this point. I feel I can't be around some of my family members without them thinking I'm better than them. It's not that I'm better than them it's just that I took advantage of every opportunity they had. So I guess I'm better at ambition and determination, etc.

I've finally come to the realization that I actually am, "stuck up". I DON'T want to go to the bars and receive DUI's on the way home. I DON'T want to rent a home or apartment and let someone else make money off of me. I DON'T want to lease a car. I don't want to be on section 8. I don't want my kids growing up without a father....

The list goes on in my family and I'm learning to deal with it.

But now that that's falling into place I'm now getting the label that I'm too preachy or that I'm too judging of people. But again, some of it is warranted but some of it is the "I'm the victim" people way of defending themselves. I'm trying to change the way of thinking they're/we're accustomed to.

Oh well.

scott free
05-11-2007, 11:32 PM
Is that your traditional response when somebody calls you out on misinformed and uneducated bullshit?

You dont know the first thing about it, i'm willing to bet i've been around the block several more times than your sorry ass.

BTW, have you talked to them lately???

Phobia
05-11-2007, 11:33 PM
Roger, you're my favorite Uncle Tom in the whole wide world.

scott free
05-11-2007, 11:36 PM
I'm here... been reading after I came back from "having a life" for a few hours.

Anyhow... Recently I've discovered that people fear or denounce things they don't understand. So To answer your ?, I think the reason a person coming back from prison is held in higher regards than a person graduating from college because it's a sense of "understanding"? At the same time... you'd see that those celebrating the return from incarceration really don't have their shit together anyways so who really gives a shit?

If everyone in that circle feels like they're the victim then they can empathize with the released prisoner... because after all... "the man has kept them down".

My mom's side hasn't celebrated no one's homecoming (out of 1) but we've celebrated multiple college graduations (5 including mine).
On my dad's side we have semi-celebrated 1 homecoming (out of 3) and we've celebrated exactly 0 college graduations (I'm the only graduate on that side). So in that example... there's some truth to my theory.

Having said that. if you come home with an education... You're "stuck up"? You're a "know it all" because you've ventured out in unchartered territory and rode the train to your chance out of the victimized content crowd.

Another example... I was reading up on self hypnosis and such to tighten some things up that I'm already good at as well as some I'm not so good at... I wanted to get more strict on my already strict budget. I also wanted to lose about 25-35lbs.

I researched self hypnosis because, 1. I think it's cool & 2. I'd like to know if it really works. I tell my mother I've been thinking about it and the first thing out of her mouth is nothing but negativity.

I then tell her about it and the fact that you're really just training your sub-conscience and you're fully aware of everything the entire time. Right then and there I realized that people fear what they don't know.

So people fear an Uncle Tom/Bryant Gumble/Colin Powell because they're educated and they think of themselves as inferior when in fact we're that same N* we were before we received the education.

Actually, You've touched on a point I've been dealing with personally in my life at this point. I feel I can't be around some of my family members without them thinking I'm better than them. It's not that I'm better than them it's just that I took advantage of every opportunity they had. So I guess I'm better at ambition and determination, etc.

I've finally come to the realization that I actually am, "stuck up". I DON'T want to go to the bars and receive DUI's on the way home. I DON'T want to rent a home or apartment and let someone else make money off of me. I DON'T want to lease a car. I don't want to be on section 8. I don't want my kids growing up without a father....

The list goes on in my family and I'm learning to deal with it.

But now that that's falling into place I'm now getting the label that I'm too preachy or that I'm too judging of people. But again, some of it is warranted but some of it is the "I'm the victim" people way of defending themselves. I'm trying to change the way of thinking they're/we're accustomed to.

Oh well.

You are on my "Fokking Down" list dude, thanx for replying.

wutamess
05-11-2007, 11:40 PM
Its been very well covered whats wrong with whites... but JUST ONCE, tell me how the black community can start to cure its own problems.

OMFG! We've had a heated discussion on this amongst us all when we lived @ Purdue (2000). I remember that conversation like it was yesterday.

The exact question was... what would it take for the black community to overcome it's issues.

To me... the answer was simple. The women.
Think about it. Women have total control over any and everything they wanted to. They have the power of the P. The chose who to sleep with, etc.

Once they start making the right decisions the community starts to develop accordingly.

Babies out of wedlock goes down because a responsible woman is only going to date/phugg a responsible man. Once that happens you start to have a family structure that is SO missing in the AA community.

We likened it to a child as a stock.
Women have 9/10 of their investment in a particular share because they're the one's that end up taking the baby home out of wed-lock.

The men only have a 1/10 of their interest because they're not the one's taking the baby home. They can easily deny the baby, etc.

It was all AA in the room of about 7 of us & it was a almost equal amount of men & women so of course the women blamed the men and the men blamed the women but due to the fact that the baby goes home with the mother we basically agreed that the women would need to get their act together in order for the community to prosper.

wutamess
05-11-2007, 11:42 PM
Roger, you're my favorite Uncle Tom in the whole wide world.

That's fine. As long as you let me borrow that Jeff Foxworthy Robin Williams compilation I know you have on a burned DVD.

Deberg_1990
05-11-2007, 11:45 PM
OMFG! We've had a heated discussion on this amongst us all when we live @ Purdue. I remember that conversation like it was yesterday.

They exact question was... what would it take for the black community to overcome it's issues.

To me... the answer was simple. The women.
Think about it. Women have total control over any and everything is they wanted to. They have the power of the P. The chose who to sleep with, etc.

Once they start making the right decisions the community starts to develop accordingly.

Babies out of wedlock goes down because a responsible woman is only going to date/phugg a responsible man. Once that happens you start to have a family structure that is SO missing in the AA community.

We likened it to a child as a stock.
Women have 9/10 of their investment in a particular share because they're the one's that end up taking the baby home out of wed-lock.

The men only have a 1/10 of their interest because they're not the one's taking the baby home. They can easily deny the baby, etc.

It was all AA in the room of about 7 of us & it was a almost equal amount of men & women so of course the women blamed the men and the men blamed the women but due to the fact that the baby goes home with the mother we basically agreed that the women would need to get their act together in order for the community to prosper.

Wow, ive never heard that theory before..but thats very interesting...

Well said.

scott free
05-11-2007, 11:47 PM
OMFG! We've had a heated discussion on this amongst us all when we live @ Purdue. I remember that conversation like it was yesterday.

They exact question was... what would it take for the black community to overcome it's issues.

To me... the answer was simple. The women.
Think about it. Women have total control over any and everything is they wanted to. They have the power of the P. The chose who to sleep with, etc.

Once they start making the right decisions the community starts to develop accordingly.

Babies out of wedlock goes down because a responsible woman is only going to date/phugg a responsible man. Once that happens you start to have a family structure that is SO missing in the AA community.

We likened it to a child as a stock.
Women have 9/10 of their investment in a particular share because they're the one's that end up taking the baby home out of wed-lock.

The men only have a 1/10 of their interest because they're not the one's taking the baby home. They can easily deny the baby, etc.

It was all AA in the room of about 7 of us & it was a almost equal amount of men & women so of course the women blamed the men and the men blamed the women but due to the fact that the baby goes home with the mother we basically agreed that the women would need to get their act together in order for the community to prosper.

I just want to thank you for some "no BS" dialogue wutamess, you didnt "sell out" to me or anyone else...but simply stated the truth as you have seen it...just as i have.

I'd hang out with you anyday.

wutamess
05-11-2007, 11:49 PM
I just want to thank you for some "no BS" dialogue wutamess, you didnt "sell out" to me or anyone else...but simply stated the truth as you have seen it...just as i have.

I'd hang out with you anyday.

Glad I have your approval rating.
Can I borrow $5?

I guess it boils down to if it's a duck it's a duck. I call them the way I see it. Us Libras are true to our sign. We're judgers and keep balance. Never thought about that or how true it actually is but what's fair is fair.

scott free
05-11-2007, 11:59 PM
Glad I have your approval rating.
Can I borrow $5?

I guess it boils down to if it's a duck it's a duck. I call them the way I see it. Us Libras are true to our sign. We're judgers and keep balance. Never thought about that or how true it actually is but what's fair is fair.

You dont need my or anyone elses approval man, what the whole black & white world needs is 2 honest guys trying to figure things out between them.

Like it or not...you still get my approval rating.

& NO, i need my $5!!!

wutamess
05-12-2007, 12:04 AM
You dont need my or anyone elses approval man, what the whole black & white world needs is 2 honest guys trying to figure things out between them.

Like it or not...you still get my approval rating.


Well my "motto" in life is everything is black & white, it's the emotions that create the gray area.

2 honest guys would never happen because you'd have millions of people creating the gray area off of emotions.

You have:
KKK, Skin heads, Arian Nation

Then you have:
Louis Farrakhan, Black Panther Party, Al Sharpton

That gray area is all fugged up.
Once their ideas dissipate we may have a chance.

Bob Dole
05-12-2007, 03:18 AM
I've finally come to the realization that I actually am, "stuck up". I DON'T want to go to the bars and receive DUI's on the way home. I DON'T want to rent a home or apartment and let someone else make money off of me. I DON'T want to lease a car. I don't want to be on section 8. I don't want my kids growing up without a father....

Kudos for avoiding the easy road and playing the victim.

Many of us--regardless of our skin color--have come to a junction in life where we could choose to simply accept the hand we were dealt, or stand up and proactively work to get a new hand. You did the latter and should be proud. Anyone who begrudges you that doesn't deserve your attention.

Valiant
05-12-2007, 03:39 AM
Nothing to do with your alls conversation...but...


All I know is Spike Lee is one of the biggest racist I have watched or listened too..

Valiant
05-12-2007, 03:42 AM
Well my "motto" in life is everything is black & white, it's the emotions that create the gray area.

2 honest guys would never happen because you'd have millions of people creating the gray area off of emotions.

You have:
KKK, Skin heads, Arian Nation

Then you have:
Louis Farrakhan, Black Panther Party, Al Sharpton

That gray area is all fugged up.
Once their ideas dissipate we may have a chance.


Shit I just like playing football and sports, I don't care what color/nationality/creed you are... You are either fun/cool to hang out with or you are not...

Terribilis
05-12-2007, 06:38 AM
I am sorry but there is no way you can compare Louis Farrakhan, Black Panther Party, Al Sharpton to the KKK, Skin heads, Arian Nation. Last I checked Al Sharpton hasnt commited any hate crimes. no grey there- thats just a false comparison

wutamess
05-12-2007, 07:10 AM
I am sorry but there is no way you can compare Louis Farrakhan, Black Panther Party, Al Sharpton to the KKK, Skin heads, Arian Nation. Last I checked Al Sharpton hasnt commited any hate crimes. no grey there- thats just a false comparison

Sharpton was a stretch but the others were dead on. I have to go to a softball tourney but I can expand on that later if you'd like. I really don't think you know what Farrakhan and others are preaching.

Slick32
05-12-2007, 07:24 AM
Shit I just like playing football and sports, I don't care what color/nationality/creed you are... You are either fun/cool to hang out with or you are not...


:grouphug: What he said.

Terribilis
05-12-2007, 07:41 AM
Instead of Al Sharpton I would have gone with the true face of evil...

http://espn-att.starwave.com/i/magazine/new/al_davis_a.jpg :)

Phobia
05-12-2007, 07:56 AM
I am sorry but there is no way you can compare Louis Farrakhan, Black Panther Party, Al Sharpton to the KKK, Skin heads, Arian Nation. Last I checked Al Sharpton hasnt commited any hate crimes. no grey there- thats just a false comparison
I think he's just demonstrating the extremes, not necessarilly saying that Sharpton is doing the exact polar opposite of the KKK.

Micjones
05-12-2007, 11:07 AM
Then that's a God awful comparison to draw.

I AM NOT a member of the Sharpton apologia.
He's human, is as flawed as the next man and has a history of well publicized missteps.

But a lot of the objections lobbed at Sharpton are misinformed and completely inaccurate.

If you're going to sling mud on the man at least get your facts straight.

Phobia
05-12-2007, 01:31 PM
Hey Micjones, would you like to hang out with me tonight? I'm trying to end the whole black/white debate and the only way to do that is to hang out with black folks. Please come over to my house and bring a forty with you.

Micjones
05-12-2007, 02:45 PM
I'll pass... Stupidity seems to be rather contagious.
I just got over an idiot.

Phobia
05-12-2007, 03:15 PM
You think I'm stupid? It's because I'm white, isn't it?

keg in kc
05-12-2007, 06:44 PM
You think I'm stupid? It's because I'm white, isn't it?It's because you're fat. I'm sensing a tone of hatred or strong prejudice against chubbies.

Mr. Kotter
05-12-2007, 08:20 PM
It's because you're fat. I'm sensing a tone of hatred or strong prejudice against chubbies.

SHIT....:banghead:

The OPPRESSION.....:deevee:

Rain Man
05-12-2007, 09:29 PM
I am sorry but there is no way you can compare Louis Farrakhan, Black Panther Party, Al Sharpton to the KKK, Skin heads, Arian Nation. Last I checked Al Sharpton hasnt commited any hate crimes. no grey there- thats just a false comparison

The only reason he hasn't is because the White Man is keeping him down.