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Logical
05-15-2007, 06:20 PM
Does God take all who are moral and good into Heaven regardless of religious affilliation?

or

Does God send everyone on earth to hell if they don't follow one particular faith?

Examples: Christianity, Islam, Judaism

Tell us your answer in a post and your reason why.

Jenson71
05-15-2007, 06:22 PM
Why don't you just ask God yourself?

Count Zarth
05-15-2007, 06:22 PM
The higher power does not care about our religions. That's my stance.

irishjayhawk
05-15-2007, 06:23 PM
How about c) God doesn't exist? I'm sure many people might argue that.

Frazod
05-15-2007, 06:25 PM
I really wish these f#cking religious threads existed exclusively in the DC forum.

Hi, Jim. Haven't yet caused enough hate and discontent for one day, I see.

Logical
05-15-2007, 06:26 PM
Why don't you just ask God yourself?Because I am not a nutcase that believes God talks to him.

DaFace
05-15-2007, 06:27 PM
I really wish these f#cking religious threads existed exclusively in the DC forum.

I dunno...religion isn't really the same as politics. Sure seems like there have been enough of these to warrant a "God Planet" lately, though (not really).

Logical
05-15-2007, 06:27 PM
I really wish these f#cking religious threads existed exclusively in the DC forum.

Hi, Jim. Haven't yet caused enough hate and discontent for one day, I see.Why do you say that, I don't even have a thread on the front page.

Jenson71
05-15-2007, 06:27 PM
Because I am not a nutcase that believes God talks to him.

Who's him? You?

Logical
05-15-2007, 06:29 PM
Who's him? You?Yes

Jenson71
05-15-2007, 06:29 PM
Why do you say that, I don't even have a thread on the front page.

What about people of the Jewish faith or Islamic faith, who believe only Jews/Muslims can get to Heaven, and everyone else goes to hell? That can't participate? This is discrimination! You should be banned!

JBucc
05-15-2007, 06:30 PM
Who knows. That bastard works in mysterious ways, it's hard to get a handle on things sometimes. But I'm with Frazod, rename DC Church and State and shove all this crap that in there.

Jenson71
05-15-2007, 06:30 PM
Yes

So you're just one of those nutcases like Bob Dole, now.

pikesome
05-15-2007, 06:30 PM
Because I am not a nutcase that believes God talks to him.

It's awfully dismissive to call everyone who thinks God talks to them is a nutcase.

It's a sad day when the wisest post here is GoChiefs'.

The higher power does not care about our religions. That's my stance.

KcMizzou
05-15-2007, 06:31 PM
Who knows. That bastard works in mysterious ways, it's hard to get a handle on things sometimes. But I'm with Frazod, rename DC Church and State and shove all this crap that in there.Heh, I like that.

Phobia
05-15-2007, 06:31 PM
Every religious denomination teaches their own version of the Plan of Salvation.

God is not all inclusive. You are not saved simply because you lived a good life, unfortunately.

I swiped this from a google search. It closely matches the teachings of my church.

Do you know for sure that you will go to Heaven when you die?

This is the most important question of life. Your joy or your sorrow for all eternity depends upon your answer. The question is not how good you are, nor if you are a church member, but are you saved?

In the Bible God gives us the plan of how to be saved. His plan is simple! You can be saved today. How?

First, you must realize you are a sinner. "For all have sinned, and fall short of the glory of God." (Romans 3:23). None of us can measure up to God’s standard by ourselves.

Because you are a sinner, you are condemned to death. "For the wages [payment] of sin is death." (Romans 6:23). This includes eternal separation from God in Hell.

But God loved you so much He gave His only Son, Jesus, to bear your sin and die in your place. "God made Him [Jesus, who knew no sin] to be sin for us, that in Him we might become the righteousness of God." (2 Corinthians 5:21).

Jesus had to shed His blood and die. "But God demonstrates His own love for us in this: while we were still sinners, Christ died for us." (Romans 5:8). Although we cannot understand how, God said my sins and your sins were laid upon Jesus and He died in our place. He became our substitute.

So, what must you do to be saved? “Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and you will be saved." (Acts 16:31)

Simply believe on Him as the one who bore your sin, died in your place, was buried, and whom God resurrected. "For everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved." (Romans 10:13)

Everyone, includes you. "Will be saved" means not maybe, nor can, but that God will save you! Just take God at His word and claim His salvation by faith. Believe, and you will be saved. Right now, wherever you are, you can pray this simple prayer:

Dear Lord,

I come to you today to confess that I am a sinner and I know there is no way I can save myself. I believe Jesus, who is God, came to this earth and died on the cross in my place to save me from my sins. I’m asking you to forgive me of my sins on account of what Jesus did for me. Please come into my life and make me a new creation in Christ, as you promised to do. Thank you for saving me from my sins and giving me a new life in Christ. For I come to you in His name. Amen.

You don't have to quote that prayer verbatim. Put it into your own words. Mean it.

Being a Christian doesn't mean you're perfect. There was only one perfect man. Lord knows I'm far, far from perfect. I screw something up every day and that's okay. But I believe I'm saved. I'm happy to discuss or answer any religious questions on this site to the best of my ability but I'm never going to debate just for the sake of debate. I know my faith and I know what God is doing in my life. But my job isn't to convince anybody that they're a sinner or that they're going to hell unless they're saved.

Thanks for the pulpit. I'll step down now.

Logical
05-15-2007, 06:32 PM
Who knows. That bastard works in mysterious ways, it's hard to get a handle on things sometimes. But I'm with Frazod, rename DC Church and State and shove all this crap that in there.

So if it is interesting but not football it all belongs in DC?

Cochise
05-15-2007, 06:33 PM
I really wish these f#cking religious threads existed exclusively in the DC forum.


I agree.

JBucc
05-15-2007, 06:33 PM
So if it is interesting but not football it all belongs in DC?It belongs in DC if I decide I don't want to see it anymore. :)

Logical
05-15-2007, 06:34 PM
Every religious denomination teaches their own version of the Plan of Salvation.

God is not all inclusive. You are not saved simply because you lived a good life, unfortunately.

I swiped this from a google search. It closely matches the teachings of my church.



You don't have to quote that prayer verbatim. Put it into your own words. Mean it.

Being a Christian doesn't mean you're perfect. There was only one perfect man. Lord knows I'm far, far from perfect. I screw something up every day and that's okay. But I believe I'm saved. I'm happy to discuss or answer any religious questions on this site to the best of my ability but I'm never going to debate just for the sake of debate. I know my faith and I know what God is doing in my life. But my job isn't to convince anybody that they're a sinner or that they're going to hell unless they're saved.

Thanks for the pulpit. I'll step down now.

Phobia because I respect you I will simply put you down as an exclusive vote and leave it at that.

irishjayhawk
05-15-2007, 06:35 PM
It's awfully dismissive to call everyone who thinks God talks to them is a nutcase.

It's a sad day when the wisest post here is GoChiefs'.

Then who is a nutcase when they claim an invisible someone is talking to them?

Jenson71
05-15-2007, 06:37 PM
Then who is a nutcase when they claim an invisible someone is talking to them?

Hey maybe you can't see God, but that doesn't mean God's invisible. :p

DaFace
05-15-2007, 06:39 PM
So if it is interesting but not football it all belongs in DC?

I think the issue is that there have been a number of threads here lately that eventually all end up on the atheism vs. Christianity debate. And frankly, many people don't find them that interesting.

However, I'm a firm believer that if I don't care about a thread, I can refrain from clicking on it. So whatever.

pikesome
05-15-2007, 06:40 PM
Then who is a nutcase when they claim an invisible someone is talking to them?

I'm not sure anyone's qualified to say based solely on "God talks to me" if that person is crazy or not. Maybe he does, maybe he don't. The wackjobs are identifiable through other ways. Maybe God talks to the crazies in the hope of pulling them out of "wackjob-dom", I don't know. He hasn't told me one way or the other. Just because I'm not a party to the conversation doesn't mean it's not true (the opposite applies also, however).

Phobia
05-15-2007, 06:42 PM
Phobia because I respect you I will simply put you down as an exclusive vote and leave it at that.

Dude, I'm willing to discuss if you have a contrary point. But my response is going to based on what I've learned from the Bible. Some of those crucial verses are quoted within the post I've already made on this thread. I'm not going to entertain Man's idea of going to heaven and living a good life because the Bible says otherwise.

Logical
05-15-2007, 06:43 PM
I'm not sure anyone's qualified to say based solely on "God talks to me" if that person is crazy or not. Maybe he does, maybe he don't. The wackjobs are identifiable through other ways. Maybe God talks to the crazies in the hope of pulling them out of "wackjob-dom", I don't know. He hasn't told me one way or the other. Just because I'm not a party to the conversation doesn't mean it's not true (the opposite applies also, however).

If you hear God talking to you, seek help.

Jenson71
05-15-2007, 06:44 PM
If you hear God talking to you, seek help.

If you hear God talking to you, start taking notes.

Logical
05-15-2007, 06:45 PM
Dude, I'm willing to discuss if you have a contrary point. But my response is going to based on what I've learned from the Bible. Some of those crucial verses are quoted within the post I've already made on this thread. I'm not going to entertain Man's idea of going to heaven and living a good life because the Bible says otherwise.You have to believe the Bible is the infallible word of God to make that ironclad. I don't believe that, but instead believe it is a collection of good works put together by man as solid guidance for many people.

Groves
05-15-2007, 06:46 PM
It's a catch 22 question. It assumes that there is no connection between a person's religion and their actions.

pikesome
05-15-2007, 06:46 PM
If you hear God talking to you, seek help.

You don't become a bigger man by shitting on other people's beliefs. If you think they're wrong you could just leave them alone. We don't all have to believe the same as you.

Phobia
05-15-2007, 06:47 PM
I don't think God is going to talk to you in the sense that you hear a booming voice as depicted on television. But I do believe that you'll feel led to do something (or not do something) as the case may be.

I'm not going to pretend to be an uber-Christian with all the answers because I'm not. I grew up in a Christian home and have just recently come back to a Christian lifestyle. I recommend it. It has brought significant happiness and peace in my life.

irishjayhawk
05-15-2007, 06:49 PM
I'm not sure anyone's qualified to say based solely on "God talks to me" if that person is crazy or not. Maybe he does, maybe he don't. The wackjobs are identifiable through other ways. Maybe God talks to the crazies in the hope of pulling them out of "wackjob-dom", I don't know. He hasn't told me one way or the other. Just because I'm not a party to the conversation doesn't mean it's not true (the opposite applies also, however).

For the sake of example, let's say:

Person A: "God talks to me and tells me things"
Person B: "An alien talks to me and tells me things"
Person C: "My imaginary friend George talks to me and tells me things"

Are there distinctions to be made, if judging solely on this.
Or are they all equally crazy?

Phobia
05-15-2007, 06:50 PM
You have to believe the Bible is the infallible word of God to make that ironclad. I don't believe that, but instead believe it is a collection of good works put together by man as solid guidance for many people.

If one doesn't believe it to be the infallible word of God, then what's the point? I mean, why even bother if one is going through the motions?

irishjayhawk
05-15-2007, 06:53 PM
If one doesn't believe it to be the infallible word of God, then what's the point? I mean, why even bother if one is going through the motions?


Very true, but to take it as the "infallible" word of God, it requires a lot of ignorance. I mean there's so many contradictions and different depictions of said God.

NewChief
05-15-2007, 06:53 PM
I grew up believing in an extremely exclusive God. I eventually rejected Christianity for this reason. I've, in the last few years, begun to come back around. I've found a church that preaches and practices inclusiveness, and I've been very much enjoying reexamining and rebuilding my faith.

pikesome
05-15-2007, 06:56 PM
For the sake of example, let's say:

Person A: "God talks to me and tells me things"
Person B: "An alien talks to me and tells me things"
Person C: "My imaginary friend George talks to me and tells me things"

Are there distinctions to be made, if judging solely on this.
Or are they all equally crazy?

Here's where you and I differ, I believe in God. Maybe not the things I hear from various religions, but I do believe in a higher power. That makes person A somewhat believable. That person might be wrong, probably is, but I have to entertain the possibility that they're 100% right. I'd need some sort of proof for the alien, I'm not sold on their existence one way or another. Person C I wouldn't want to ride an elevator with.

pikesome
05-15-2007, 06:58 PM
Very true, but to take it as the "infallible" word of God, it requires a lot of ignorance. I mean there's so many contradictions and different depictions of said God.

My personal view on this is that God isn't infallible but people most certainly are. If Einstein explained relativity to you in the 40's, do you think you could regurgitate it 100% right? Probably not. Throw in our unending desire to dominate and control others...

Phobia
05-15-2007, 07:00 PM
Very true, but to take it as the "infallible" word of God, it requires a lot of ignorance. I mean there's so many contradictions and different depictions of said God.

The only contradictions I know of are people who are reading different books.

Logical
05-15-2007, 07:01 PM
You don't become a bigger man by shitting on other people's beliefs. If you think they're wrong you could just leave them alone. We don't all have to believe the same as you.

Hearing voices in your head is a sign of mental problems. I am not shitting on beliefs but giving honest advice.

Logical
05-15-2007, 07:04 PM
I don't think God is going to talk to you in the sense that you hear a booming voice as depicted on television. But I do believe that you'll feel led to do something (or not do something) as the case may be.

I'm not going to pretend to be an uber-Christian with all the answers because I'm not. I grew up in a Christian home and have just recently come back to a Christian lifestyle. I recommend it. It has brought significant happiness and peace in my life.

I respect that and I am happy for you. Just like I respect and am happy for someone who believes strongly in the tenets of Islam and follows the teachings with good intent.

scott free
05-15-2007, 07:05 PM
Hearing voices in your head is a sign of mental problems.

If you dont believe in God it is.

pikesome
05-15-2007, 07:07 PM
Hearing voices in your head is a sign of mental problems. I am not shitting on beliefs but giving honest advice.

No, you're being a shit stirrer at the very least.

http://www.the-turds.co.uk/turds/ShowPicture.aspx?filename=ShitStirrer.jpg&size=fullsize

If they don't bother you in a meaningful way, just leave it alone. Posts on CP don't count as meaningful BTW.

CoMoChief
05-15-2007, 07:07 PM
I really wish these f#cking religious threads existed exclusively in the DC forum.

Church and State need to be seperated.
:p

Logical
05-15-2007, 07:08 PM
I grew up believing in an extremely exclusive God. I eventually rejected Christianity for this reason. I've, in the last few years, begun to come back around. I've found a church that preaches and practices inclusiveness, and I've been very much enjoying reexamining and rebuilding my faith.

I am curious which church is practicing exclusiveness, I would research such a church.

CoMoChief
05-15-2007, 07:09 PM
Just like I respect and am happy for someone who believes strongly in the tenets of Islam and follows the teachings with good intent.

Terrorist lover.

NewChief
05-15-2007, 07:13 PM
I am curious which church is practicing exclusiveness, I would research such a church.

If you mean inclusiveness, it's the Episcopal church.

Here's a link from my church about the Episcopal ethos:
http://www.stpaulsfay.org/id72.html

Frosty
05-15-2007, 07:20 PM
Does God take all who are moral and good into Heaven regardless of religious affilliation?

No

Does God send everyone on earth to hell if they don't become Christians?

No

As for what I believe and why, it is way too complicated and involved to post here. The short(er) version:

http://www.godstruthfortoday.org/Library/miscellaneous/TheOutcomeOfInfiniteGrace.htm

The more involved version:

http://www.concordant.org/expohtml/HisAchievement/index.html

Logical
05-15-2007, 07:20 PM
If you mean inclusiveness, it's the Episcopal church.

Here's a link from my church about the Episcopal ethos:
http://www.stpaulsfay.org/id72.html


Yes I erred, thanks

pikesome
05-15-2007, 07:21 PM
I am curious which church is practicing exclusiveness, I would research such a church.

I have no personal dealings with this religion but they seem to be based on inclusiveness.

Bahai Faith (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bah%C3%A1%27%C3%AD_Faith)

The Bahá'í teachings state that there is but one religion which is progressively revealed by God, through prophets/messengers, to mankind as humanity matures and its capacity to understand also grows. The outward differences in the religions, the Bahá'í writings state, are due to the exigencies of the time and place the religion was revealed.

Link (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bah%C3%A1%27%C3%AD_Faith_and_the_unity_of_religion)

ClevelandBronco
05-15-2007, 07:30 PM
Every religious denomination teaches their own version of the Plan of Salvation.

God is not all inclusive. You are not saved simply because you lived a good life, unfortunately.

I swiped this from a google search. It closely matches the teachings of my church.



You don't have to quote that prayer verbatim. Put it into your own words. Mean it.

Being a Christian doesn't mean you're perfect. There was only one perfect man. Lord knows I'm far, far from perfect. I screw something up every day and that's okay. But I believe I'm saved. I'm happy to discuss or answer any religious questions on this site to the best of my ability but I'm never going to debate just for the sake of debate. I know my faith and I know what God is doing in my life. But my job isn't to convince anybody that they're a sinner or that they're going to hell unless they're saved.

Thanks for the pulpit. I'll step down now.

Best stuff ever, Phobia. Thanks for broadening my heart today.

KcMizzou
05-15-2007, 07:37 PM
Most religions seem to think their way is the right and only way. If any one religion is right, the majority of the world's population is in for a rude awakening.

I guess I'm agnostic. I don't know that there's a higher power, but I certainly hope so.

I've always hoped that if there is, he/she/it would judge more on the heart of the person, rather than the book they read, or the building they worship in.

Might be wishfull/hopefull thinking on my part.

plbrdude
05-15-2007, 07:40 PM
[QUOTE=frazod]I really wish these f#cking religious threads existed exclusively in the DC forum.



DC? what about seperation of church and state?

redbrian
05-15-2007, 07:48 PM
If you mean inclusiveness, it's the Episcopal church.

Here's a link from my church about the Episcopal ethos:
http://www.stpaulsfay.org/id72.html


Good to see a fellow Episcopalian, I must concur that we are very inclusive to all walks of life.

An Episcopal Priest from the Philly area wrote a great book a few years back (sorry can’t think of the guys name or the name of the book), the just of the book is that God revels it’s self to the person in a manner in which he can culturally comprehend.

This is why there are so many formal and informal ways to “heaven”.

Also when most people talk about God talking to them they only mean it in a metaphorical sense, and not a voice heard in the head.

Mr. Kotter
05-15-2007, 07:53 PM
I have no personal dealings with this religion but they seem to be based on inclusiveness.

Bahai Faith (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bah%C3%A1%27%C3%AD_Faith)



Link (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bah%C3%A1%27%C3%AD_Faith_and_the_unity_of_religion)

Whenever I have taken religious tests, or quizzes....I most often come down as closely aligned with Bahai than with anything else--including Christianity.

NewChief
05-15-2007, 07:54 PM
Whenever I have taken religious tests, or quizzes....I most often come down as closely aligned with Bahai than with anything else--including Christianity.

Weren't you an Episcopalian for most of your life before recently switching? Or was it Lutheran?

CrazyPhuD
05-15-2007, 08:11 PM
Bah everyone knows only Mormons and Saddam go to heaven everyone else is going to hell....except Biggie Smalls who keeps showing up in people's bathrooms!

B_Ambuehl
05-15-2007, 08:11 PM
Religions are just various expressions of spirituality. The problem is people get too caught up in the details and lose sight of the big picture. One does not have to be a member of any religion or belief...it's all about living your life with more love, joy and goodness...which is the same thing as being more Christ like in the way you live your life.

KcMizzou
05-15-2007, 08:13 PM
Religions are just various expressions of spirituality. The problem is people get too caught up in the details and lose sight of the big picture. One does not have to be a member of any religion or belief...it's all about living your life with more love, joy and goodness...which is the same thing as being more Christ like in the way you live your life.If only more people saw it that way.

Rep.

Count Zarth
05-15-2007, 08:14 PM
BTW, I love Sinfest's continuing habit of posting religious cartoons every week. I find them amusingly profound:

http://img523.imageshack.us/img523/9145/20070513iy0.gif (http://imageshack.us)

chop
05-15-2007, 08:34 PM
I really wish these f#cking religious threads existed exclusively in the DC forum.

Hi, Jim. Haven't yet caused enough hate and discontent for one day, I see.Why do you care that one religious thread is on the main page? Correct me if I'm wrong, but I thought the DC forum was created because of the multiple politcal threads that were being posted on the main forum on a daily basis.

If the main forum was being over run with religious threads then you may have a point. The question is why does it annoy you that someone on the board wants to talk about religion? If you don't believe that is your right but why do some people get so angry about religion? Everyone knows that GoChiefs doesn't believe but he still thinks it's necessary to hijack all threads that discuss God. If you don't believe why don't you just ignore these types of threads. Don't get so angry about it.

chop
05-15-2007, 08:37 PM
Every religious denomination teaches their own version of the Plan of Salvation.

God is not all inclusive. You are not saved simply because you lived a good life, unfortunately.

I swiped this from a google search. It closely matches the teachings of my church.



You don't have to quote that prayer verbatim. Put it into your own words. Mean it.

Being a Christian doesn't mean you're perfect. There was only one perfect man. Lord knows I'm far, far from perfect. I screw something up every day and that's okay. But I believe I'm saved. I'm happy to discuss or answer any religious questions on this site to the best of my ability but I'm never going to debate just for the sake of debate. I know my faith and I know what God is doing in my life. But my job isn't to convince anybody that they're a sinner or that they're going to hell unless they're saved.

Thanks for the pulpit. I'll step down now.

I'm glad you shared this.

KcMizzou
05-15-2007, 08:37 PM
Why do you care that one religious thread is on the main page? Correct me if I'm wrong, but I thought the DC forum was created for all of the politcal threads that were being posted on the main forum.

If the main forum was being over run with religious threads then you may have a point. The question is why does it annoy you that someone on the board wants to talk about religion? If you don't believe that is your right but why do some people get so angry about religion? Everyone knows that GoChiefs doesn't believe but he still thinks it's necessary to hijack all threads that discuss God. If you don't believe why don't you just ignore these types of threads. Don't get so angry about it.Religion and politics go hand in hand, in that everyone knows once a conversation involving either starts, a fight isn't far behind.

Not only that, but it'll be a fight nobody can win, because you're never going to change the other guy's mind.

I think that's all Fraz was getting at. This thread's been surprisingly tame.

JohnnyV13
05-15-2007, 08:38 PM
I think God will send us all to hell if you don't pick the right religion. The problem is, mankind hasn't figured out the right religion yet.

I think we're all DOOMED!!!!!!!!!!

P.S. The Buddist monks come the closet to being right, except their robes are a slightly wrong shade of orange. THey are still going to hell.

NewChief
05-15-2007, 08:38 PM
Don't get so angry about it.

That's like asking Frazod not to wake up in the morning. Anger is his life's blood.

chop
05-15-2007, 08:43 PM
That's like asking Frazod not to wake up in the morning. Anger is his life's blood.

:D

Logical
05-15-2007, 08:52 PM
I think God will send us all to hell if you don't pick the right religion. The problem is, mankind hasn't figured out the right religion yet.

I think we're all DOOMED!!!!!!!!!!

P.S. The Buddist monks come the closet to being right, except their robes are a slightly wrong shade of orange. THey are still going to hell.LOL

Pitt Gorilla
05-15-2007, 09:02 PM
If one doesn't believe it to be the infallible word of God, then what's the point? I mean, why even bother if one is going through the motions?What's the point? The point is I still believe in God, Jesus, et al. I also understand that the Bible was written by people. Ergo, mistakes.

Count Zarth
05-15-2007, 09:04 PM
Everyone knows that GoChiefs doesn't believe but he still thinks it's necessary to hijack all threads that discuss God. I.

There are so many things wrong with this statement.

First of all, I am not an atheist. I am a not-care-ist.

Second of all, I stay out of most religion threads.

JohnnyV13
05-15-2007, 09:06 PM
I have been considering starting my own religion so that people will worship the "right" way and can now be saved for the first time in human history. Unfortunately, I really like the idea of having heaven all to myself.

If, however, you are a suitably attractive young female, I might consider giving you instruction on how you can achieve eternal bliss, in exchange for some ephemeral earthly bliss.

Phobia
05-15-2007, 09:07 PM
What's the point? The point is I still believe in God, Jesus, et al. I also understand that the Bible was written by people. Ergo, mistakes.

Like what?

SLAG
05-15-2007, 09:07 PM
Phil,

Jesus is awesome, and I'm eternally grateful that he died on a cross for our sins.


Here is why Roman Catholic's Believe that there is just a little more to it

What the Bible Says

To be saved, you must believe in the Lord Jesus Christ (Acts 16:31), but the Sacred Scriptures show other things you must also do to be saved.

* You must endure to the end. Matthew 10:22, Matthew 24:13, Mark 13:13.
* You must accept the Cross (suffering). Matthew 10:38, Matthew 16:24-25, Mark 8:34, Luke 9:23, Luke 14:27.
* You must be baptized with water. Mark 16:16, John 3:3-5 Titus 3:5, I Peter 3:20-21.
* You must be a member in God's true church. Acts 2:47.
* You must confess your sins. James 5:16, I John 1:9
* You must keep the Commandments of God. Matthew 5:19-20, Matthew 7:21
* You must heed the words of St. Peter, the first Pope. Acts 11:13-14, Acts 15:7.
* You must eat the flesh and drink the blood of Jesus Christ. John 6:51-58, I Corinthians 10:16, I Corinthians 11:23-29

The only Church that meets all the requirements of Salvation is the Holy Catholic Church.

...But all I have to do is believe...

Simply believing that you are saved is not in agreement with the Sacred Scriptures, according to I Corinthians 4:4-5.

For I am not conscious to myself of anything. Yet am I not hereby justified: but he that judgeth me is the Lord. Therefore, judge not before the time: until the Lord come, who both will bring to light the hidden things of darkness and will make manifest the counsels of the hearts. And then shall every man have praise from God."

These verses show some important things:

First: It shows that our understanding is too limited to know if we are "saved."

Second: To consider ourselves to be saved before the time of judgement (After we die per Hebrews 9:27) is to violate a command of the scriptures.

Also see: I Corinthians 9:27, II Corinthians 10:18.
Every religious denomination teaches their own version of the Plan of Salvation.

God is not all inclusive. You are not saved simply because you lived a good life, unfortunately.

I swiped this from a google search. It closely matches the teachings of my church.



You don't have to quote that prayer verbatim. Put it into your own words. Mean it.

Being a Christian doesn't mean you're perfect. There was only one perfect man. Lord knows I'm far, far from perfect. I screw something up every day and that's okay. But I believe I'm saved. I'm happy to discuss or answer any religious questions on this site to the best of my ability but I'm never going to debate just for the sake of debate. I know my faith and I know what God is doing in my life. But my job isn't to convince anybody that they're a sinner or that they're going to hell unless they're saved.

Thanks for the pulpit. I'll step down now.

JohnnyV13
05-15-2007, 09:11 PM
SLAG:

Pope Benedict just deep sixed the concept of LIMBO, and the need for a newborn to be baptised to enter heaven. I suspect, the "baptism with water" requirement now has gone by the wayside.

Jenson71
05-15-2007, 09:13 PM
Like what?

When was Jesus born, according to the Bible?

Pitt Gorilla
05-15-2007, 09:15 PM
Like what?I'm not sure the whole Adam, Eve, and family story happened as it is portrayed in the Bible. I don't fault the writers or editors a whole lot, though, as no one was able to document the happenings as they occurred.

SLAG
05-15-2007, 09:16 PM
SLAG:

Pope Benedict just deep sixed the concept of LIMBO, and the need for a newborn to be baptised to enter heaven. I suspect, the "baptism with water" requirement now has gone by the wayside.

it was never a Dogma,

heres the straight Scoop


"As regards children who have died without baptism, the Church can only entrust them to the mercy of God, as she does in her funeral rites for them.

"Indeed, the great mercy of God who desires that all men should be saved, and Jesus' tenderness toward children which caused him to say: 'Let the children come to me, do not hinder them,' allow us to hope that there is a way of salvation for children who have died without baptism.

"All the more urgent is the Church's call not to prevent little children coming to Christ through the gift of holy baptism."


In writings before his election as Pope in 2005, the then Cardinal Joseph Ratzinger made it clear he believed the concept of limbo should be abandoned because it was "only a theological hypothesis" and "never a defined truth of faith."

also

The Catholic Church's official catechism, issued in 1992 after decades of work, dropped the mention of limbo.

Logical
05-15-2007, 09:38 PM
I am not going to a point for point debate on the fallibiliry of the Bible. But the facts are there for anyone who will do the research with an open mind. I also remind all that it was written by man and even if it was inspired by God mans fallibility enters into its message.

tiptap
05-15-2007, 09:46 PM
To turn and to turn will be my delight til by turning, turning it comes round right.

Mr. Kotter
05-15-2007, 09:50 PM
Weren't you an Episcopalian for most of your life before recently switching? Or was it Lutheran?
I grew up Church of Christ/Baptist. Became agnostic in college, but yearned for a spiritual life again in early adulthood. My wife was raised ELCA Lutheran; we switched to LFCA (more conservative Lutheran) about two years ago.

I consider myself a deist who's found a denomination that I'm comfortable in as a "practicing" Christian--mostly out of convenience.

Count Zarth
05-15-2007, 09:51 PM
I consider myself a deist who's found a denomination that I'm comfortable in as a "practicing" Christian--mostly out of convenience.

Why is it so convenient?

Mr. Kotter
05-15-2007, 09:57 PM
Why is it so convenient?As an American living in America, particularly in SD....it provides opportunities for worship, fellowship, self-awareness and spiritual growth...of one's place in the universe, IMO.

If I'd been born and grown up elsewhere, I'd have likely embraced whatever the most inclusive local theology was...to provide an outlet for my individual expression of spirituality.

I understand many castigate "institutionalized" or "organized" religion....as being imprecise, or even "wrong" about doctrine and faith--so they profess to have no "need" for it. That's fine--even if in many instances it may be a rationalizaton of personal choices, and they don't wish to be "accountable." For me though, fellowship, worship, and spiritual maturity is facilitated by organized faith when you are comfortable with it. IMO, the key (as several have said) is not losing sight of the forest for the trees---remembering the "big picture" and not getting lost in the details and individual point of dogmatic teachings or self-serving doctrine.

JMHO

JohnnyV13
05-15-2007, 09:58 PM
it was never a Dogma,

heres the straight Scoop




I know that, yet it seems to me that getting rid of the concept of limbo from the catechism would have an affact on the reqirement of baptism. Meaning, if a newborn can achieve heaven without baptism, then baptism is no longer absolutely required for heaven.

The quotes you cited seem to me to indicate that baptism is a WAY to be introduced to the church and faith, but is not absolutely required for salvation (at least for infants).

I must admit, these are the kind of things that have made me a fallen away catholic. I am well trained in theology (by Jesuits at both the high school and university level), and I cannot help but notice that a number of conditions on your list are extremely self-serving for the secular power of the church.

The requirements that:

1) belong to the one true church
2) participate in communion
3) Obey the commands of the first Pope (e.g. accept the authority of the pope and tangentially accept the doctrine of infalliblity of the catholic heirarchy).

all serve to buttress the earthly power and influence of the catholic church more than have any spiritual impact. They are, in effect, saying "you'd better be catholic" and "obey (and presumably donate to) the heirarchy" to go to heaven. It is, in other words, a form of spiritual blackmail. (Which, btw, I somewhat lampoon in earlier posts on this thread).

Except, the church (in other contexts) acceed that non-catholics may achieve heaven. Am I the only one who notices a slight amount of duplicity here? They create a catechism that on its face makes it seem only a catholic may achieve heaven, yet create enough "fuzziness" in the rules so that non-catholics might have a "backdoor". If I didn't know better, gosh, I'd think I was on the phone with a telemarker with a "special" offer that expires at the end of the phone call.

I suppose I have the biggest problem with the "tangentially accept the infallibility of the catholic heirarchy", specifically humanae vitae, which is some of the worst theological reasoning I have ever seen. Of course, it is "infallible doctrine" and when 400 catholic theologians objected to elevating it to "no question" status in 1979, then Cardinal Ratzinger stripped them of their teaching credentials (including his one-time mentor, Hans Klum).

Unfortunately, I can't get past the structural similarity of humanae vitae to the justifications used in the 17th century to claim that vaccination was immoral because it was man "interefering in god's will" (that people die of plague).

KCBOSS1
05-15-2007, 10:00 PM
Exclusive - "there is no other name under heaven whereby we must be saved."

He is also narrow minded, "Broad is the way that leads to destruction and many there be that go in. Narrow is the way that leads to life and few there be that find it."

That's my understanding.

He's a benevolent dictator. Entrance into a house any other way than through the door is illegal.

Mr. Kotter
05-15-2007, 10:09 PM
Exclusive - "there is no other name under heaven whereby we must be saved."

He is also narrow minded, "Broad is the way that leads to destruction and many there be that go in. Narrow is the way that leads to life and few there be that find it."

That's my understanding.

He's a benevolent dictator. Entrance into a house any other way than through the door is illegal.
IMO, that is a fundamentalist/literalist interpretation of God, as experienced through Chrisitainity which for those of us who believe otherwise....isn't much more than a culturally convenient and efficient way for the church, and governments (before separation of church and state) to, historically, control the masses in the Western world. Once again, JMHO.

If that is God....then, to many of us, God indeed is....dead.

patteeu
05-15-2007, 10:10 PM
Exclusive. S/he's going to take all of us but Logical, Broncos fans, Al Davis, and people who badmouth Dick Cheney.

Iowanian
05-15-2007, 10:11 PM
I'm only certain of 2 things regarding God.

He exists.

I'm not him.

Count Zarth
05-15-2007, 10:13 PM
I'm only certain of 2 things regarding God.

He exists.

I'm not him.

OK Priest from Rudy.

Iowanian
05-15-2007, 10:15 PM
Truth is truth, no matter the author.

keg in kc
05-15-2007, 10:36 PM
That's fine--even if in many instances it may be a rationalizaton of personal choices, and they don't wish to be "accountable." For me though, fellowship, worship, and spiritual maturity is facilitated by organized faith when you are comfortable with it. IMO, the key (as several have said) is not losing sight of the forest for the trees---remembering the "big picture" and not getting lost in the details and individual point of dogmatic teachings or self-serving doctrine.I find the opposite to often be true, that many who practice organized religion do so precisely because it offers a loophole from accountability. God controls all, God forgives all, God has a plan. It's a relaxation of spirituality, rather than an emphasis or an assumption of personal responsability. It's a reliance on the teachings and interpretation of others, often without any semblence of honest personal reflection.

As for being self-serving, what relgious doctrine is not?

ChiefJustice
05-15-2007, 10:40 PM
Religions are just various expressions of spirituality. The problem is people get too caught up in the details and lose sight of the big picture. One does not have to be a member of any religion or belief...it's all about living your life with more love, joy and goodness...which is the same thing as being more Christ like in the way you live your life.

Amen.Heaven is here now for the people who choose to see it.
Love and respect everyone with unfailing compassion.Make it happen now,not after you die.

http://www.trippintees.com/images/buddhaM.jpg

keg in kc
05-15-2007, 11:03 PM
Regarding heaven and hell, I don't know the answer. If there is a God and said God does assign us minions on earth to said places, I certainly hope that goodness is the primary prerequisite. If it is not, then to hell I go, despite living my life as best as I can. That seems rather unfair to me, but, in that circumstance, God is God and I am only me. What can a fella do...

In the end, whatever turns out to be the "truth", I am who I am not for a fear of hell or a hope at heaven, but because a certain point in my life I chose to follow a moral code. Right or wrong, that code's pretty simple: part Golden Rule, and part "don't do anything you'd feel like you have to hide from the people you care about" with a little "do no harm" and "help out other people when you can" thrown in. In other words, I let my conscience be my guide, as the saying goes.

Perhaps God, if there is such a beast, keeps a tally-book of my rights and wrongs, but, in the day-to-day world, I don't get to see that. The only thing I ever see is my own ugly face in the mirror, staring back at me. I hate seeing me look at me in disappointment or disgust.

RJ
05-15-2007, 11:08 PM
Replying to the original intent of the thread (I think) here is my favorite Emo joke. I'm sure you've all heard it before but what the hell....


"Iwas walking across a bridge one day, and I saw a man standing on the edge, about to jump.
I ran over and said: "Stop. Don't do it."

"Why shouldn't I?" he asked.

"Well, there's so much to live for!"

"Like what?"

"Are you religious?"

He said, "Yes."

I said, "Me too. Are you Christian or Buddhist?"

"Christian."

"Me too. Are you Catholic or Protestant?"

"Protestant."

"Me too. Are you Episcopalian or Baptist?"

"Baptist."

"Wow. Me too. Are you Baptist Church of God or Baptist Church of the Lord?"

"Baptist Church of God."

"Me too. Are you original Baptist Church of God, or are you Reformed Baptist Church of God?"

"Reformed Baptist Church of God."

"Me too. Are you Reformed Baptist Church of God, Reformation of 1879, or Reformed Baptist Church of God, Reformation of 1915?"

He said: "Reformed Baptist Church of God, Reformation of 1915."

I said: "Die, heretic scum," and pushed him off.

Sully
05-15-2007, 11:16 PM
Everyone (obviously) comes to this question, and others raised in this thread, from a different place.

My personal belief?

God is inclusive, wholly inclusive. Has nothing to do with works.

And the Bible is fallible.

ChiefJustice
05-15-2007, 11:37 PM
My question for this thread is:

If in the future,fossilized life or living life is discovered
on another rock other than ours(earth)..will that said
lifeform be inclusive to God's heaven?

Will an alien microbe be banished to hell? Or does it have to go to dog heaven with the rest of our pet cast-offs?

ClevelandBronco
05-15-2007, 11:47 PM
I read this book over the weekend:

http://www.amazon.com/Rapture-Exposed-Message-Hope-Revelation/dp/0813343143/ref=pd_bbs_sr_1/002-9039770-1678419?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1179275824&sr=8-1

I highly recommend it to anyone who is uncomfortable with the "Left Behind" message of the Rapture.

For my part, I've never been able to understand why so many evangelicals have embraced the idea that suddenly and without warning Jesus will snatch up all the true believers, who will watch from afar as He inexplicably transforms Himself from the embodiment of God's love to the weapon of God's anger.

Despite the author's personal left-leaning interjections, I think this book presents a convincing argument against popular end times teaching.

It was certainly worth the time it took me to check it out from my local library. I'm going to buy it and add it to my own reference library.

ClevelandBronco
05-15-2007, 11:53 PM
My question for this thread is:

If in the future,fossilized life or living life is discovered
on another rock other than ours(earth)..will that said
lifeform be inclusive to God's heaven?

Will an alien microbe be banished to hell? Or does it have to go to dog heaven with the rest of our pet cast-offs?

If life is found elsewhere, I would always trust that God has His own ideas and His own plan. He's already told me what I need to know about life here. Anything else He may have done is just additionally fascinating.

BucEyedPea
05-15-2007, 11:56 PM
Is God Exclusive or Inclusive?

God is reclusive.

ClevelandBronco
05-16-2007, 12:07 AM
Is God Exclusive or Inclusive?

God is reclusive.

Good line, Pea, but not if you're a Christian.

He came here to live with us. That's about as accessible as God gets.

luv
05-16-2007, 12:10 AM
Wouldn't the answer to this depend upon which faith you are?

Smed1065
05-16-2007, 12:27 AM
Inclusive I say.

If someone grows up in a a country where you have to worry about survival as priority #1 and have not been "shown-taught" the correct way and are just surviving the best you can 24/7, why would you be left out? Because of social status or being uninformed or educated? How does this apply to people that are taught by Snoopy that there is only one way and all else are evil and it is your duty to kill them all?

If to error is human, do I go to hell because I made an error in this instance, have had the wrong influence from my family or just did not research all the 5000 religions properly? All religions cannot be correct since some do not allow acceptance for the others.

I seem to have a problem with threats to make somebody believe or practice something involuntarily or voluntarily out of fear. (It is our way and beliefs or go to hell attitude).

ClevelandBronco
05-16-2007, 12:37 AM
A Presbyterian minister friend once told me that that he thought we would all be astounded by the inclusiveness of God's grace. I'd like to think that he's come closer to the truth than I have.

ChiefJustice
05-16-2007, 12:47 AM
If life is found elsewhere, I would always trust that God has His own ideas and His own plan. He's already told me what I need to know about life here. Anything else He may have done is just additionally fascinating.


IF?

That's a useful word.It can be used in any debate to forestall the inevitable.

Science is the enemy of religion.

ClevelandBronco
05-16-2007, 12:54 AM
IF?

That's a useful word.It can be used in any debate to forestall the inevitable.

Science is the enemy of religion.

I don't see it that way. For me, science has helped to reveal more about the intricate plan my God created.

Of course we may have nothing more than a misunderstanding between faith and religion that separates our opinions.

ChiefJustice
05-16-2007, 01:21 AM
I don't see it that way. For me, science has helped to reveal more about the intricate plan my God created.

Of course we may have nothing more than a misunderstanding between faith and religion that separates our opinions.

what is the difference between faith and religion?

How old is the earth?

Shall we base our ideas and faith on what we are told...or what we believe?

Or what we can prove?

CHIEF4EVER
05-16-2007, 01:36 AM
I don't see it that way. For me, science has helped to reveal more about the intricate plan my God created.


Shhhhhhhhhhh.......!!!!!!!!!! Don't encourage those who think people of faith have no understanding of science. :rolleyes: LMAO

ClevelandBronco
05-16-2007, 01:42 AM
what is the difference between faith and religion?

Faith is an individual thing. Religion is a collective thing.

How old is the earth?

I can't answer. I just don't know.

Shall we base our ideas and faith on what we are told...or what we believe?

Or what we can prove?

All of the above. God gave you a discerning brain for a good reason. Use every tool you've been equipped with.

Embrace Him or reject Him. There's no right answer for you.

JohnnyV13
05-16-2007, 02:54 AM
Shhhhhhhhhhh.......!!!!!!!!!! Don't encourage those who think people of faith have no understanding of science. :rolleyes: LMAO

If people of faith were to go into the laboratory and show me how their theories help predict natural phenomenon, synthesize useful pharmecudicals, or predict the behavior of animal species, then I might believe they understand science.

Instead, most religious people who object to science simply attack science, cite the bible as authority for their theories, then provide NO APPLICATION to the things scientists are trying to accomplish.

The primary difference between science and religion is science is based upon evidence. Opinions and theories change based upon the weight of hte evidence (replicable results through experiment). Religion is based on faith and does not change with evidence.

The fact is, science and religion are very different ways in which to understand the world. Trying to object to scientific theories because of conflict with religious belief is sort of like assaulting a foreigner because they gave you a greeting in their own language which happens to coincide with an insult in English.

ChiefJustice
05-16-2007, 03:02 AM
Shhhhhhhhhhh.......!!!!!!!!!! Don't encourage those who think people of faith have no understanding of science. :rolleyes: LMAO


I have faith,That wasn't the point i was trying to make.Blind faith and belief in a text that deplores or renounces science is an out-moded idea.

We,as a human race are ready,poised on the cusp...to make a choice

Shall we continue to decide whose god can beat up the others god?

Or do we work together as a planet...a simple mote in the universe, we alone can achieve all of our collective dreams?

My heaven is inclusive to everyone.

I have no need for a vindictive god.

plbrdude
05-16-2007, 06:45 AM
freedom of choice just about sums it up. we are free to love God or not. we can serve him or not. we can take to him all our griefs and troubles or not. we are free to make that choice. if the Bible is true (and i believe it is) then when God's wrath is poured out, or our soul is lost for eternity, then we need to look no further than ourselves for the choices we made. this is the choice i make.


...but as for me and my house, we will serve the LORD. Josh. 24:15

kepp
05-16-2007, 06:54 AM
The higher power does not care about our religions. That's my stance.
So here's a deeper question - Given the fact that you accept the "power" as higher, are you prepared if He doesn't accept your "stance"?

Frosty
05-16-2007, 07:30 AM
The whole "you have to make a choice" thing is a nice idea, but the fact is that the majority of the world has not heard the message, especially hearing it free of bias. So what about those that haven't heard, aren't capable of understanding if they do hear, or are so brainwashed by their circumstances that they are incapable of making that choice (for example, the poor and uneducated in Muslim countries that only hear that Christians are Satan)?

Christians like to think that everyone has been given a nice clear choice, but even in this country it is very confused. Some churches claim that you have to be baptized to be saved, others claim you have to be a member of their church, still others say "all you have to do is believe" but then add in all the secret requirements (tithing, witnessing, etc). So, what exactly is the choice?

Personally, I think that if God was leaving it up to our choice, it would be a lot clearer, like blazing letters in the sky, not an obscure message in a hard to understand book originally written in a dead language, especially considering that burning in hell for all eternity is kinda extreme. As it stands now, if Christians are right, then probably less than 5% of mankind will go to heaven. Hell is going to be pretty crowded.

I personally do not believe that it is left to chance.

Faithful is the saying and worthy of all welcome (for for this are we toiling and being reproached), that we rely on the living God, Who is the Saviour of all mankind, especially of believers. These things be charging and teaching. 1 Tim. 4:9-11

(note - that is especially of believers, not exclusively believers)

Iowanian
05-16-2007, 07:59 AM
I wish I knew the answer.

In some ways, this debate is like watching a campground.

A large group arrives on a bus, some get off and spend the entire day putting up tents, gathering wood, preparing food, icing soda, dragging out the canoe and fishing gear, in preparation of their much deserved vacation. Others throw on their shorts and spend the entire day playing in the creek assuming the food and fire will be there when they get hungry.

That night, when the evening chill enters, they all want to sit by the fire to warm in the same manner as those who prepared.

I don't think there is one way to be invited, but on the other hand, I can't imagine that someone who spends their entire life being a selfish, glutonous asshole is going to be eating smores with everyone else.

Given the fact that I don't know the answer for sure, the only eternity I'll concern myself with are mine and those of my immediate family.

I stand by my "wagon wheel" theory on heaven....1 hub and alot of spokes, starting in different places, taking different angles to get to the same location.

If you need me, I'll be over here chopping wood.

Count Zarth
05-16-2007, 09:15 AM
So here's a deeper question - Given the fact that you accept the "power" as higher, are you prepared if He doesn't accept your "stance"?

Prepared for what?

el borracho
05-16-2007, 09:26 AM
Hey maybe you can't see God, but that doesn't mean God's invisible. :p
Obviously, god is an ultraviolet tinky-winky... just beyond the perception of the human eye.

Iowanian
05-16-2007, 09:28 AM
If you're looking, you can see glimpses of God every day.

Jenson71
05-16-2007, 09:30 AM
Obviously, god is an ultraviolet tinky-winky... just beyond the perception of the human eye.

If Falwell was still alive, he would destroy you for this.

el borracho
05-16-2007, 09:37 AM
"Still a man sees what he wants to see and disregards the rest"

RJ
05-16-2007, 09:45 AM
Religions are Exclusive.

God is Inclusive.

kepp
05-16-2007, 10:19 AM
Prepared for what?
Anything He decides.

Count Zarth
05-16-2007, 10:21 AM
How could I be? I'm not going to live my life in fear though.

Logical
05-16-2007, 10:30 AM
Inclusive I say.

If someone grows up in a a country where you have to worry about survival as priority #1 and have not been "shown-taught" the correct way and are just surviving the best you can 24/7, why would you be left out? Because of social status or being uninformed or educated? How does this apply to people that are taught by Snoopy that there is only one way and all else are evil and it is your duty to kill them all?

If to error is human, do I go to hell because I made an error in this instance, have had the wrong influence from my family or just did not research all the 5000 religions properly? All religions cannot be correct since some do not allow acceptance for the others.

I seem to have a problem with threats to make somebody believe or practice something involuntarily or voluntarily out of fear. (It is our way and beliefs or go to hell attitude).:clap:

Sully
05-16-2007, 11:01 AM
There are few things sadder to me than those who "worship" a vain God as an insurance policy in order to get into heaven.

Iowanian
05-16-2007, 11:07 AM
....Except for a non-believer who spends so much of their lives disparaging something they don't believe in the first place.

Frosty
05-16-2007, 11:08 AM
There are few things sadder to me than those who "worship" a vain God as an insurance policy in order to get into heaven.

What? You don't believe in fire insurance?

Actually, what is sadder to me is someone feeling smug and self-righteous because they were smart enough to make the right choice and it's just too bad about those dumb bastards that weren't smart enough to make the same choice. Too bad, so sad. :rolleyes:

Sully
05-16-2007, 11:11 AM
....Except for a non-believer who spends so much of their lives disparaging something they don't believe in the first place.
Which non believers are you talking about?

Sully
05-16-2007, 11:13 AM
What? You don't believe in fire insurance?

Actually, what is sadder to me is someone feeling smug and self-righteous because they were smart enough to make the right choice and it's just too bad about those dumb bastards that weren't smart enough to make the same choice. Too bad, so sad. :rolleyes:
You are right. I think that type of thinking is the impetus for this thread. Those who believe their choice is the only choice believe in an exclusive God.

Logical
05-16-2007, 11:57 AM
....Except for a non-believer who spends so much of their lives disparaging something they don't believe in the first place.
I feel fortunate that this thread did not devolve into that line of thinking.

scott free
05-16-2007, 12:09 PM
I feel fortunate that this thread did not devolve into that line of thinking.

I must say, that in comparison to most other religiously themed threads, this one has remained relatively thoughtful & civil...that IS refreshing.

Bowser
05-16-2007, 12:11 PM
Good and evil comes from the heart, and God and Satan comes from the brain.

kepp
05-16-2007, 12:41 PM
Good and evil comes from the heart, and God and Satan comes from the brain.
Where do the heart & brain come from?

BigCatDaddy
05-16-2007, 01:40 PM
Why do science and faith have to be enemies? As a Christian I welcome science and what it can do to help man kind. I just think that's God's technology is just a little more advanced then ours.

I think it all comes down do I, as a human, am not egotistical enough to believe we are the best the universe or outside the universe has to offer.

JohnnyV13
05-16-2007, 01:55 PM
There are few things sadder to me than people who worship a vain football team that hasn't won a playoff game in over a decade....

Um..er....sigh.....I guess that means me.

kepp
05-16-2007, 02:06 PM
There are few things sadder to me than people who worship a vain football team that hasn't won a playoff game in over a decade....

Um..er....sigh.....I guess that means me.
ROFL And now back to reality

Adept Havelock
05-16-2007, 03:11 PM
Where do the heart & brain come from?

Well, if you really need it spelled out for you:

http://www.howstuffworks.com/human-reproduction.htm

Logical
05-16-2007, 03:56 PM
There are few things sadder to me than people who worship a vain football team that hasn't won a playoff game in over a decade....

Um..er....sigh.....I guess that means me.
I swear those fans must be idiots, can you imagine an entire BB based on such a pathetic team?

Sully
05-16-2007, 04:06 PM
There are few things sadder to me than people who worship a vain football team that hasn't won a playoff game in over a decade....

Um..er....sigh.....I guess that means me.
ROFL
That was one of the "few" things I was talking about.
Woe is me.

Zebedee DuBois
05-16-2007, 04:49 PM
Exclusiveness is a human trait, hoading riches for one's self at the expense of others.

It seems to me that assigning that trait to God is an attempt to make God in our image, not the other way around.

Adept Havelock
05-16-2007, 05:14 PM
Exclusiveness is a human trait, hoading riches for one's self at the expense of others.

It seems to me that assigning that trait to God is an attempt to make God in our image, not the other way around.


Jethro Tull would be so proud.

Believer
05-16-2007, 05:22 PM
Does God take all who are moral and good into Heaven regardless of religious affilliation?

or

Does God send everyone on earth to hell if they don't follow one particular faith?

Examples: Christianity, Islam, Judaism

Tell us your answer in a post and your reason why.

God is inclusive in that everyone, no matter who they are what they have done, are accepted into the kingdom of Heaven if they have accepted His Son.
Its not a lot to ask, but man chooses to twist this around into being God being "exclusive" because man wishes to set the terms.

Adept Havelock
05-16-2007, 05:25 PM
Its not a lot to ask, but man chooses to twist this around into being God being "exclusive" because man wishes to set the terms.

Well, as we (man) created God as an explanation for thunder, the sun, etc. that seems only right and proper.

I prefer to set the terms for my imaginary friends. It's letting them set the terms that lands you in the nuthatch. :p

Count Zarth
05-16-2007, 05:32 PM
God is inclusive in that everyone, no matter who they are what they have done, are accepted into the kingdom of Heaven if they have accepted His Son.
.

What if I don't want into your members only club?

Logical
05-16-2007, 05:49 PM
God is inclusive in that everyone, no matter who they are what they have done, are accepted into the kingdom of Heaven if they have accepted His Son.
Its not a lot to ask, but man chooses to twist this around into being God being "exclusive" because man wishes to set the terms.

Sorry but your condition make him an exclusive God. To a certain extent he would have to be an exclusive God unless everyone gets in, but that is not the conditions I described in my thread header. Your God would literally exclude Billion automatically as they don't even come in contact with the concept of Jesus.

go bowe
05-16-2007, 05:56 PM
As an American living in America, particularly in SD....it provides opportunities for worship, fellowship, self-awareness and spiritual growth...of one's place in the universe, IMO.

If I'd been born and grown up elsewhere, I'd have likely embraced whatever the most inclusive local theology was...to provide an outlet for my individual expression of spirituality.

I understand many castigate "institutionalized" or "organized" religion....as being imprecise, or even "wrong" about doctrine and faith--so they profess to have no "need" for it. That's fine--even if in many instances it may be a rationalizaton of personal choices, and they don't wish to be "accountable." For me though, fellowship, worship, and spiritual maturity is facilitated by organized faith when you are comfortable with it. IMO, the key (as several have said) is not losing sight of the forest for the trees---remembering the "big picture" and not getting lost in the details and individual point of dogmatic teachings or self-serving doctrine.

JMHOand what would you call the things that show up in your posts from time to time?

(hint: it's self-serving doctrine)...

other people should check it out, because you are so good at this stuff it's downright astonishing...

astonishing, i say...

just astonishing...

go bowe
05-16-2007, 06:19 PM
Exclusive. S/he's going to take all of us but Logical, Broncos fans, Al Davis, and people who badmouth Dick Cheney.hey!

i heard that...

i have never knowingly badmouthed the vice president...

of course that cocksucker is behind all of the problems we have in the world right now...

Slick32
05-16-2007, 06:35 PM
Phobia because I respect you I will simply put you down as an exclusive vote and leave it at that.

How would you respond to that post from someone you don't respect? Like the rest of the board?

I read what he said and he is close to the Christian doctrine as I've seen it.

I'm not overly interested in your response because based on what I've read on this board you are pretty much either atheist or agnostic. I don't remember which.

What you seem to refuse to accept is that there are as many people on this board that practice any one of the religions prevalent in the U.S. There are also a good number of atheists, agnostic, islamic, wiccan or whatever. Posts like this just inflame arguments.

Never mind.

Logical
05-16-2007, 06:37 PM
How would you respond to that post from someone you don't respect? Like the rest of the board?

I read what he said and he is close to the Christian doctrine as I've seen it.

I'm not overly interested in your response because based on what I've read on this board you are pretty much either atheist or agnostic. I don't remember which.

What you seem to refuse to accept is that there are as many people on this board that practice any one of the religions prevalent in the U.S. There are also a good number of atheists, agnostic, islamic, wiccan or whatever. Posts like this just inflame arguments.

Never mind.

You are wrong I am neither and atheist or agnostic. I am a Deist.

Slick32
05-16-2007, 06:51 PM
You are wrong I am neither and atheist or agnostic. I am a Deist.

So what, answer the question.

Logical
05-16-2007, 06:53 PM
Silock,

I would respond the way I did to Believer below.Sorry but your condition make him an exclusive God. To a certain extent he would have to be an exclusive God unless everyone gets in, but that is not the conditions I described in my thread header. Your God would literally exclude Billions automatically as they don't even come in contact with the concept of Jesus.

go bowe
05-16-2007, 06:58 PM
* * *
Posts like this just inflame arguments...that's the point...

arguments around here are informative and entertaining...

mostly entertaining...

drama is not a bad thing...

in fact, we need more cowbell, ooops, i mean drama around here...

TinyEvel
05-16-2007, 07:01 PM
God is inclusive. People are exclusive. Or, that is to say, they interpret him as such.

Slick32
05-16-2007, 07:17 PM
Silock,

I would respond the way I did to Believer below.

According to the Bible, a book that many denominations use and believe, tells us that Christ will not return until every nation has had an opportunity to hear the good news of Jesus Christ.

Should that be the case God is not exclusive but inclusive. It might be the people that are being exclusive. If you have the choice and reject Christ your final resting place tends to be your choice.

Logical
05-16-2007, 07:36 PM
According to the Bible, a book that many denominations use and believe, tells us that Christ will not return until every nation has had an opportunity to hear the good news of Jesus Christ.

Should that be the case God is not exclusive but inclusive. It might be the people that are being exclusive. If you have the choice and reject Christ your final resting place tends to be your choice.

Unless billions are going to live/die and then be reincarnated they will never even hear the name Jesus. That is exclusionary.

Slick32
05-16-2007, 08:00 PM
Unless billions are going to live/die and then be reincarnated they will never even hear the name Jesus. That is exclusionary.

Opinions vary.

I do not believe in reincarnation. Your belief in it does nothing to bring validation to the concept. Once you bring dying without hearing the good news that adds a new wrinkle to the equation. Once you reach the age of accountability (what ever that is) and you die without having the opportunity to hear the good news is a question you'll have to ask a theologian and I don't qualify. I'm sure you don't either. If you find one ask him or her.

Logical
05-16-2007, 08:03 PM
Opinions vary.

I do not believe in reincarnation. Your belief in it does nothing to bring validation to the concept.

I did not say I believe in reincarnation. I said reincarnation would be required to allow a God who required acceptance of Jesus as a persons savior as the admittance slip for heaven to not exclude billions who have never and will never hear of Jesus.

Slick32
05-16-2007, 08:04 PM
I did not say I believe in reincarnation. I said reincarnation would be required to allow a God who required acceptance of Jesus as a persons savior as the admittance slip for heaven to not exclude billions who have never and will never hear of Jesus.

Try reading the edited version. I hit the post button too quickly.

Logical
05-16-2007, 08:10 PM
Opinions vary.

I do not believe in reincarnation. Your belief in it does nothing to bring validation to the concept. Once you bring dying without hearing the good news that adds a new wrinkle to the equation. Once you reach the age of accountability (what ever that is) and you die without having the opportunity to hear the good news is a question you'll have to ask a theologian and I don't qualify. I'm sure you don't either. If you find one ask him or her.

I don't see that you changed the statement in bold. I was asked to answer Phobia's post as if it was a poster I had less respect for, I did that. As to the need to be a theologian that is only needed if a person believes in the Bible.

Slick32
05-16-2007, 08:18 PM
I don't see that you changed the statement in bold. I was asked to answer Phobia's post as if it was a poster I had less respect for, I did that. As to the need to be a theologian that is only needed if a person believes in the Bible.

I guess that slipped right over the top of your head. I was telling you that the people that have died without hearing about the good news is something that I cannot address. If you want to know what the Christian religion says about that you need to ask someone that has studied the Bible and the ancient texts that are available. You don't have to be a believer in the Bible to ask someone that is a question about what the text infers.

BigCatDaddy
05-16-2007, 08:32 PM
As Paul stated the law of God is in the heart of every man, so there is no excuse for not knowing.

Count Zarth
05-16-2007, 08:33 PM
As Paul stated the law of God is in the heart of every man, so there is no excuse for not knowing.

Is there an excuse for not caring?

Logical
05-16-2007, 08:35 PM
I guess that slipped right over the top of your head. I was telling you that the people that have died without hearing about the good news is something that I cannot address. If you want to know what the Christian religion says about that you need to ask someone that has studied the Bible and the ancient texts that are available. You don't have to be a believer in the Bible to ask someone that is a question about what the text infers.I think my answer slipped past you. I am pointing out that my answer was directed towards Phobia's response as you requested and that a theologian was not needed for me to answer that since I don't believe in the Bible as the infallible word of God.

Logical
05-16-2007, 08:37 PM
As Paul stated the law of God is in the heart of every man, so there is no excuse for not knowing.I think we are possibly not communicating. Gods law may indeed be in all mens hearts, but I don't think man can know what God's law is.

go bowe
05-16-2007, 08:44 PM
* * *
I'm not overly interested in your response because based on what I've read on this board you are pretty much either atheist or agnostic. I don't remember which.
* * * are you trying say that if someone were to be either an agnostic or an atheist, their posts and opinions are to be disregarded?

it's your loss, not ours...

hint: if you don't want to read what us heretics think, don't click on threads like this...

it's not that complicated...

better yet, there are plenty of religious-based web sites where you'd be more comfortable...

BigCatDaddy
05-16-2007, 08:46 PM
I think we are possibly not communicating. Gods law may indeed be in all mens hearts, but I don't think man can know what God's law is.

Sure we can as he know what the bible teaches us. To really understand God I don't think you can be completely "Logical". The bible is full of things that aren't logical and seem impossible to us. But the impossible stops with God.

Logical
05-16-2007, 08:49 PM
Sure we can as he know what the bible teaches us. To really understand God I don't think you can be completely "Logical". The bible is full of things that aren't logical and seem impossible to us. But the impossible stops with God.

If you believe in the Bible, I don't. I believe it is an excellent book of morality stories and parables.

Slick32
05-16-2007, 08:56 PM
I think my answer slipped past you. I am pointing out that my answer was directed towards Phobia's response as you requested and that a theologian was not needed for me to answer that since I don't believe in the Bible as the infallible word of God.

Your answer did no slip past me, but I'm sure the additional part of the post surely did.

After you get by the fact that I understood that you don't believe in reincarnation try the following:

Once you bring dying without hearing the good news that adds a new wrinkle to the equation. Once you reach the age of accountability (what ever that is) and you die without having the opportunity to hear the good news is a question you'll have to ask a theologian and I don't qualify. I'm sure you don't either. If you find one ask him or her.

Now, what I referred to regarding the statement above is that you don't have to believe in the bible to get an explanation regarding the Christian belief about those that have died without hearing the good news.

Are you just being obstinate or do your really not care about understanding why some people believe the way they do? Try to get a grip on the words after your bolded statement. Your belief or non-belief in reincarnation isn't the point here.

Slick32
05-16-2007, 08:59 PM
are you trying say that if someone were to be either an agnostic or an atheist, their posts and opinions are to be disregarded?

it's your loss, not ours...

hint: if you don't want to read what us heretics think, don't click on threads like this...

it's not that complicated...

better yet, there are plenty of religious-based web sites where you'd be more comfortable...

You are reading into a comment to suit your needs. If I were to think that your opinions should be disregarded I would never have asked the questions I did. I don't think of anyone as heretics nor do I think of anyone as lost because of their current status of unbelief in God. For my belief there is hope for every man and woman up to the time they take their last breath. Nobody is left out of making a choice.

Logical
05-16-2007, 09:04 PM
Your answer did no slip past me, but I'm sure the additional part of the post surely did.

After you get by the fact that I understood that you don't believe in reincarnation try the following:

Once you bring dying without hearing the good news that adds a new wrinkle to the equation. Once you reach the age of accountability (what ever that is) and you die without having the opportunity to hear the good news is a question you'll have to ask a theologian and I don't qualify. I'm sure you don't either. If you find one ask him or her.

Now, what I referred to regarding the statement above is that you don't have to believe in the bible to get an explanation regarding the Christian belief about those that have died without hearing the good news.

Are you just being obstinate or do your really not care about understanding why some people believe the way they do? Try to get a grip on the words after your bolded statement. Your belief or non-belief in reincarnation isn't the point here.

I suppose to an extent I am being obstinate because I understand why they believe the way they do and really just do not care or accept that they are right. On the other hand I am not going to tell the ones I respect that I think they have to be wrong either.

Slick32
05-16-2007, 09:11 PM
I suppose to an extent I am being obstinate because I understand why they believe the way they do and really just do not care or accept that they are right. On the other hand I am not going to tell the ones I respect that I think they have to be wrong either.

I don't think it is a case of respect.....I've seen your posts before, I have never felt that you respected anyone on this board.

The ones that you say you respect are probably more secure in their beliefs about the Bible and God than you think. Your thoughts that they are wrong will have no impact on their beliefs. After all, as a non-believer you don't have a basis of authority over them or their beliefs.

What harm would it be to you as a disbeliever to ask a theologian what the impact of someone dying that has never heard the word of God regarding Christ. Does it cause fear in your heart to listen to someone that has studied the Bible? If so, your disbelief is in jeopardy.

Mr. Kotter
05-16-2007, 09:12 PM
and what would you call the things that show up in your posts from time to time?

(hint: it's self-serving doctrine)...

other people should check it out, because you are so good at this stuff it's downright astonishing...

astonishing, i say...

just astonishing...

I wouldn't disagree with you....completely.

Is that honest enough for you, John. ;)

Mr. Laz
05-16-2007, 09:19 PM
Religion and GOD should be "love and Inclusive"


but sadly it's become a "we are better than you and you're going to hell" club to beat people up with.


but that's not GOD ..... that's what people use GOD's name for.

so on second thought GOD is Inclusive ... it's people that are fugged up.

go bowe
05-16-2007, 09:21 PM
I wouldn't disagree with you....completely.

Is that honest enough for you, John. ;)*dirty chuckles* it'll do for now...

i still say that you are, when in the mood, astonishing... :p

Logical
05-16-2007, 09:23 PM
I don't think it is a case of respect.....I've seen your posts before, I have never felt that you respected anyone on this board.

The ones that you say you respect are probably more secure in their beliefs about the Bible and God than you think. Your thoughts that they are wrong will have no impact on their beliefs. After all, as a non-believer you don't have a basis of authority over them or their beliefs.

What harm would it be to you as a disbeliever to ask a theologian what the impact of someone dying that has never heard the word of God regarding Christ. Does it cause fear in your heart to listen to someone that has studied the Bible? If so, your disbelief is in jeopardy.

No harm, it is just that for me asking a theologian is like asking Fred Phelps to explain his rationale for his prejudices, just a waste of both of our time.

Mr. Kotter
05-16-2007, 09:25 PM
*dirty chuckles* it'll do for now...

i still say that you are, when in the mood, astonishing... :p

I'll choose to take that as a compliment. Stay cool, John.

(BTW, I have LOWER Level tickets next year (though they are SE "endzone" view)....I'll let you know what games I have available, later....)

Sully
05-16-2007, 09:35 PM
Religion and GOD should be "love and Inclusive"


but sadly it's become a "we are better than you and you're going to hell" club to beat people up with.


but that's not GOD ..... that's what people use GOD's name for.

so on second thought GOD is Inclusive ... it's people that are fugged up.
QFT!

Slick32
05-16-2007, 09:42 PM
No harm, it is just that for me asking a theologian is like asking Fred Phelps to explain his rationale for his prejudices, just a waste of both of our time.

There is a grand difference between a theologian and Fred Phelps. Old Freddy doesn't have anything to back his beliefs other than misinterpretation of what the Bible says. The theologian has a better grasp of how all of the translations match up and how those translations match with the original script in Hebrew and Greek.

I don't think it would be a waste if you honestly wanted to know why we believe the way we do. It's easy to point a finger and make fun of something you know little about, and easier to poke fun at those of us that believe by faith and try to find more facts to back it. Most of us are unarmed in a debate about religion.

Satan knows more about the Bible than any Preacher, or standard run of the mill believer.

Logical
05-16-2007, 10:21 PM
There is a grand difference between a theologian and Fred Phelps. Old Freddy doesn't have anything to back his beliefs other than misinterpretation of what the Bible says. The theologian has a better grasp of how all of the translations match up and how those translations match with the original script in Hebrew and Greek.

I don't think it would be a waste if you honestly wanted to know why we believe the way we do. It's easy to point a finger and make fun of something you know little about, and easier to poke fun at those of us that believe by faith and try to find more facts to back it. Most of us are unarmed in a debate about religion.

Satan knows more about the Bible than any Preacher, or standard run of the mill believer.If there is even a Satan you might be right.

go bowe
05-16-2007, 10:37 PM
I'll choose to take that as a compliment. Stay cool, John.

(BTW, I have LOWER Level tickets next year (though they are SE "endzone" view)....I'll let you know what games I have available, later....)yep, it's astonishing and all,

but it's definitely a compliment (well, sorta)...

pm me when you have some info regarding tickets...

now, go and astonish people...

continue on with your life's work, young man...

(tee hee hee hee)

there's still a lot of astonishing to be done... :eek: :eek: :eek:

ClevelandBronco
05-16-2007, 11:03 PM
Religion and GOD should be "love and Inclusive"


but sadly it's become a "we are better than you and you're going to hell" club to beat people up with.


but that's not GOD ..... that's what people use GOD's name for.

so on second thought GOD is Inclusive ... it's people that are fugged up.

I assure you, Laz, I'm not only no better than you are, I'm likely worse than you. I know for sure that I'm no more worthy to enter heaven than you are.

I'm sorry you've had to deal with Christians that come off as a "members-only" group. I know that plenty of folks like that are out there and I regret that they don't represent our faith very well.

Considering who Jesus hung out with the first time he was here, I suspect that He'd spend a good deal of time now with drug addicts, homosexuals, teen mothers, the mentally ill homeless, and just about anyone else that has to deal with our modern day Pharisees who look down on them.

(And having written that, I regret a joke I made in another thread about GoChiefs and Ru Paul. I vow here never to make such a joke again, and I ask for GoChiefs' forgiveness.)

go bowe
05-16-2007, 11:24 PM
* * *
It's easy to point a finger and make fun of something you know little about, and easier to poke fun at those of us that believe...welcome to tne planet...

it's what we do... :Fire:

ClevelandBronco
05-17-2007, 12:46 AM
Great. I've successfully killed yet another thread.

Slick32
05-17-2007, 04:52 AM
If there is even a Satan you might be right.

There is Lucifer, check your Avatar - you might be related. You seem to be his advocate here.

Saggysack
05-17-2007, 05:14 AM
There is Lucifer, check your Avatar - you might be related. You seem to be his advocate here.

Lucifer?

That is Lord of Darkness, the unicorn destroyer.

Slick32
05-17-2007, 05:18 AM
Lucifer?

That is Lord of Darkness, the unicorn destroyer.

Try checking the following link.

http://www.allaboutgod.com/story-of-lucifer.htm



.

Saggysack
05-17-2007, 06:42 AM
Try checking the following link.

http://www.allaboutgod.com/story-of-lucifer.htm



.

Guy, the image is a from a movie called Legend. A fantasy movie with fairies and unicorns. It has nothing to do with religion.

Try another route to be persecuted. This one isn't working.

Frosty
05-17-2007, 09:55 AM
Here is a better article about Satan:

Satan Didn't Fall (http://www.godstruthfortoday.org/Library/priddy/TheNecessityOfSin.htm)

Logical
05-17-2007, 10:05 AM
There is Lucifer, check your Avatar - you might be related. You seem to be his advocate here.

That is the silliest argument yet. According to some I would know more about the Bible than a theologian if I was Satan. Yet I need to consult a theologian.:rolleyes:

keg in kc
05-17-2007, 10:07 AM
Why is satin so close in name to satan? And does that make the fabric evil?

Mr. Laz
05-17-2007, 10:08 AM
That is Lord of Darkness, the unicorn destroyer.
isn't that voldemort?

Frosty
05-17-2007, 10:12 AM
Why is satin so close in name to satan? And does that make the fabric evil?

Only if it's red.

Mr. Kotter
05-17-2007, 10:24 AM
That is the silliest argument yet. According to some I would know more about the Bible than a theologian if I was Satan. Yet I need to consult a theologian.:rolleyes:Of course Satan knows more about the Bible the most theologians. He was fallen from one of the chosen.

It's not knowledge that makes Satan, Satan....but rather his intent, motives, and quest for evil.

:)




:fire:







fwiw, I don't really subscribe to the medieval images of hell and the devil....

NewChief
05-17-2007, 10:32 AM
Why is satin so close in name to satan? And does that make the fabric evil?
Santa too, and he wears red. Cavorts with flying reindeer, as well. Got to be some witchcraft involved there.

Someone gave us a Christmas stocking for an evil cat we had that said "Santa's favorite cat." We always wanted to restitch it to say "Satan's favorite cat."

keg in kc
05-17-2007, 10:35 AM
Someone gave us a Christmas stocking for an evil cat we had that said "Santa's favorite cat." We always wanted to restitch it to say "Satan's favorite cat."I've known a few folks that deserve "Satan's favorite pussy" stockings.

Programmer
05-17-2007, 12:02 PM
Quote: <HR SIZE=1>Originally Posted by Slick32
you might be related. <HR SIZE=1>

According to some I would know more about the Bible than a theologian if I was Satan.

For someone with the name Logical you make me laugh. How did you come up with that response from what he said?

ROFLROFL

Logical
05-17-2007, 02:16 PM
Quote: <HR SIZE=1>Originally Posted by Slick32
you might be related. <HR SIZE=1>



For someone with the name Logical you make me laugh. How did you come up with that response from what he said?

ROFLROFL

I don't typically respond to posters that I have never seen on the BB before. But if I am related to Satan then it is reasonable to assume I would share his characteristics.

Adept Havelock
05-17-2007, 05:09 PM
(And having written that, I regret a joke I made in another thread about GoChiefs and Ru Paul. I vow here never to make such a joke again, and I ask for GoChiefs' forgiveness.)


Are you sure it's not Ru Pauls forgiveness you should be asking for? :p

Saggysack
05-17-2007, 11:09 PM
isn't that voldemort?

Nope.

Well, on 2nd thought, I did read somewhere Voldemort voted Republican. Maybe they are one in the same. :hmmm:

Logical
05-18-2007, 12:27 AM
Nope.

Well, on 2nd thought, I did read somewhere Voldemort voted Republican. Maybe they are one in the same. :hmmm:

Now that is sort of funny being as that used to be how I identifed Voldemortom.

Saggysack
05-18-2007, 12:57 AM
Now that is sort of funny being as that used to be how I identifed Voldemortom.

Heh, Voldemortom. Nice.

stevieray
05-18-2007, 07:49 AM
God wants to include everyone, it's people who exclude themselves from Him.

Slick32
05-18-2007, 07:55 AM
God wants to include everyone, it's people who exclude themselves from him.

I think that's what a few are trying to say, but you get different answers from those that have excluded themselves. It's a choice they make. We are all free to make that decision.

stevieray
05-18-2007, 07:56 AM
We are all free to make that decision.
...and that's because it wouldn't have any value any other way.

Slick32
05-18-2007, 08:00 AM
...and that's because it wouldn't have any value any other way.

You betcha!!

greg63
05-18-2007, 08:12 AM
Does God take all who are moral and good into Heaven regardless of religious affilliation?

or

Does God send everyone on earth to hell if they don't follow one particular faith?

Examples: Christianity, Islam, Judaism

Tell us your answer in a post and your reason why.

Do you believe in God?

Frosty
05-18-2007, 11:57 AM
God wants to include everyone, it's people who exclude themselves from Him.

Some think we need to get unhelpless long enough to call on God. Nonsense. Remember? "Not one is seeking out God."(Romans 3:11) We are so helpless that God has to give us the very faith we need to seek Him (Romans 12:3). Don't I believe in the free will of man? No. I believe in the free will of God.

Here is what the so-called "general invitation" doctrine is saying: God pulls into your driveway and, finding your house burning down, honks the horn a couple times. Being a hands off God, He then closes His eyes, plugs His ears and starts humming loudly to Himself so He won't be tempted to influence your decision to either get into or not get into His car. From this point on, it's entirely up to your strength and your wisdom to open the door and get in. Never mind that you're upstairs lying unconscious on the floor (see "helpless," Rom. 5:6). And you better hurry, too, because this buggy's moving on. Once God pulls out of the driveway, your chance to get in the car is over. (As if God leaves Christ's work on Calvary to chance!)
The really crazy part about this "general invitation" business is that those who believe it call it "salvation by grace." Hmm. Sounds to me more like "salvation by being strong enough and smart enough to get into God's car while God is closing His eyes, plugging His ears and humming to Himself."

Romans 5:6, layman's terms This is salvation by grace: God pulls into your driveway and, finding you nowhere in sight and your house burning down, lays His own neck on the line and runs up the stairway, through the flames and into your bedroom. Finding you unconscious on the floor in your underwear, He picks you up, carries you out of the house, down the sidewalk and out to His car. At the car, He cradles your limp frame in His left arm while opening the door with His right hand. Then He straps you into the front seat next to Him, slams the door and starts off to glory. Once you come to, He does let you say "I believe! I believe! I confess Your name!" Due to His gracious nature, He also lets you check the rear-view mirror for Him occasionally, run the power windows up and down and fool with the radio. This is called being a "fellow worker with God" (1 Cor. 3:5-9).

Helpless people being saved? The logical conclusion is this: Personal belief and confession are reactions to salvation, not causes of it. We believe because we are saved, we are not saved because we believe.

More:

http://www.martinzender.com/God_saves_the_helpless.htm
http://www.martinzender.com/free_will_and_the_oh_well_creed.htm

stevieray
05-18-2007, 12:07 PM
Martin is free to believe what he wants....

Ironic that people say that the Bible is fallible because it is written by man, but anything written by man that "discredits" God is legitimate.

greg63
05-18-2007, 12:11 PM
Martin is free to believe what he wants....

Ironic that people say that the Bible is fallible because it is written by man, but anyhting written by man that discredits God is legitimate.

Excellent point. :clap:

Frosty
05-18-2007, 12:42 PM
Ironic that people say that the Bible is fallible because it is written by man, but anything written by man that "discredits" God is legitimate.

Is this aimed at me? I don't recall claiming scripture was fallible or that stuff written by man trumped the Word. I also in no way discredit God - in fact, I give him all of the glory.

My point was that those who believe that salvation is up to them by being wise enough to make that choice isn't Scriptural. It is man's pride that leads them to think that they have the ability to save themselves. Eph 1:5 says were spiritually dead before faith, yet people believe that they somehow raised themselves from this spiritual death to a do good work, apart from God. Romans 3:11 says that no one is seeking after God, but man somehow knows on his own to make that choice. Eph 2:9,10 says that faith is a gift from God, not of works, so that none can boast, but man claims the work on the Cross wasn't complete and they have to complete that last link to make it valid.

I don't care what people believe; it's not up to me. I am simply presenting a different point of view to this thread. I simply believe that God is completely sovereign and that the work on the Cross is finished, as He said.

greg63
05-18-2007, 01:44 PM
Is this aimed at me?...

I think it was more aimed at those who are trying to discredit God. Although, I've been wrong before; infact I spend much of my time being wrong. I am, after all, married.

Slick32
05-18-2007, 06:17 PM
[QUOTE=greg63]I think it was more aimed at those who are trying to discredit God. Although, I've been wrong before; infact I spend much of my time being wrong. I am, after all, married.

And you have lost your man card!

greg63
05-18-2007, 08:51 PM
[QUOTE=greg63]I think it was more aimed at those who are trying to discredit God. Although, I've been wrong before; infact I spend much of my time being wrong. I am, after all, married.

And you have lost your man card!

LMAO Heh!

Logical
05-18-2007, 10:06 PM
Do you believe in God?I believe in a creator? I don't believe in the Bible.

Logical
05-18-2007, 10:09 PM
Martin is free to believe what he wants....

Ironic that people say that the Bible is fallible because it is written by man, but anything written by man that "discredits" God is legitimate.

This is a generalization that is not useful. Perhaps it is true for some specific people if so you should name them.

Slick32
05-19-2007, 05:54 PM
I believe in a creator? I don't believe in the Bible.

So how do you feel about how the Bible was written? What about the Quran? The book of Zen Buddhism? The Mormon Bible? How about any other religious text?

If you believe in the Creator, how do you explain that you have that belief without having a source of information about him her or it?

What about any of the other religions not mentioned above?

Judaism Islam Gnosticism Unitarianism Zoroastrianism Pantheism Fundamentalism

Count Zarth
05-19-2007, 06:08 PM
If you believe in the Creator, how do you explain that you have that belief without having a source of information about him her or it?


Uh, the very fact that we are here? Don't need a book.

JohninGpt
05-19-2007, 06:12 PM
I'm banking on inclusive due to good moral character. I have references.

CHIEF4EVER
05-19-2007, 06:21 PM
I think we are possibly not communicating. Gods law may indeed be in all mens hearts, but I don't think man can know what God's law is.

Why is that Jim? Sounds like a convenient cop out so one doesn't have to change one's lifestyle to me. GOD's law is pretty clear and was confirmed by the Christ.

1. You will have no other gods before me.

What does this mean? We should fear, love and trust in GOD above all things.

2. Do not take the name of the LORD your GOD in vain.
What does this mean? We should fear and love love GOD in that we do not curse, swear, use witchcraft, lie or deceive in HIS name; but call upon it in every trouble, pray, praise and give thanks.

3. Remember the Sabbath Day and keep it holy.

What does this mean? We should fear and love GOD in that we do not despise preaching or his WORD; but keep it holy and gladly hear it and learn it.

4. Honor your Father and Mother that all may go well with you and you may live long upon the Earth.

What does this mean? We should fear and love GOD in that we do not despise our parents or masters, nor provoke them to anger; but honor, respect and obey them; and give them love and esteem.

5. You will not murder.

What does this mean? We should fear and love GOD in that we do not seek to hurt or harm our neighbor in his body, but help and befriend him in every bodily need.

6. You will not commit adultery.

What does this mean? We should fear and love GOD in that we live chaste and decent lives in word and deed, and each love and honor his spouse.

7. You will not steal.

What does this mean? We should fear and love GOD in that we do not attempt to take our neighbors money or posessions, nor obtain them by false wares; but help him to keep and improve his property and business.

8. You will not bear false witness against your neighbor.

What does this mean? We should fear and love GOD in that we do not deceitfully belie, betray or slander our neighbor; but defend him, speak well of him and put the best construction on everything.

9. You will not covet your neighbors house.

What does this mean? We should fear and love GOD in that we do not craftily seek to get our neighbors house or inheritance, nor obtain by a show of right; but help him to keep it.

10. You will not covet your neighbors' wife, his manservants, his maidservants, his oxen or anything else that is your neighbors.

What does this mean? We should fear and love GOD in that we do not estrange, enforce or entice away our neighbors wife, servants or animals, but urge them to stay and do their duty.

What does GOD say about all these commandments? He says, "I, the LORD your GOD, am a jealous God, punishing the children for the sin of the fathers to the third and fourth generation of those who hate me, but showing love to a thousand generations of those who love me and keep my commandments."

What does this mean?
God threatens to punish all who transgress these commandments. Therefore we should fear his anger and not disobey what he commands. But he promises grace and every blessing to all who keep these commandments. Therefore we should love and trust in him, and gladly obey what he commands.

Jesus the Christ said:

Love the LORD your GOD with all your heart, soul and mind; and love your neighbor as yourself for this is the Law and the prophets.





Sorry to be preachy and long winded but I think Jesus' teachings are consistent with GOD's law, are easily understandable, and are in writing not only in the Bible but on mens hearts. Nobody is without excuse.

I'll shut up now.

Logical
05-19-2007, 06:23 PM
So how do you feel about how the Bible was written? What about the Quran? The book of Zen Buddhism? The Mormon Bible? How about any other religious text?

If you believe in the Creator, how do you explain that you have that belief without having a source of information about him her or it?

What about any of the other religions not mentioned above?

Judaism Islam Gnosticism Unitarianism Zoroastrianism Pantheism Fundamentalism

All religions are man trying to explain the unexplainable, some people find comfort in those religions, I don't need them. I see the mysteries of the stars and of earth and the amazing unity of the scientific explanations for all physics and biology and I know in my mind they cannot have occured randomly. So in that science is my faith in the concept of a creator validated.

Logical
05-19-2007, 06:43 PM
Why is that Jim? Sounds like a convenient cop out so one doesn't have to change one's lifestyle to me. GOD's law is pretty clear and was confirmed by the Christ.
.....
Love the LORD your GOD with all your heart, soul and mind; and love your neighbor as yourself for this is the Law and the prophets.





Sorry to be preachy and long winded but I think Jesus' teachings are consistent with GOD's law, are easily understandable, and are in writing not only in the Bible but on mens hearts. Nobody is without excuse.

I'll shut up now.I understand many people feel a need to follow this quality morality code and that is fantastic, but I don't really believe they are God's laws.

CHIEF4EVER
05-19-2007, 07:08 PM
I understand many people feel a need to follow this quality morality code and that is fantastic, but I don't really believe they are God's laws.

So what do you believe GOD's laws are? Hate him and hate your neighbor more than yourself? :p

Count Zarth
05-19-2007, 07:10 PM
I'm guessing Logical doesn't believe in any higher laws.

Slick32
05-19-2007, 07:15 PM
All religions are man trying to explain the unexplainable, some people find comfort in those religions, I don't need them. I see the mysteries of the stars and of earth and the amazing unity of the scientific explanations for all physics and biology and I know in my mind they cannot have occurred randomly. So in that science is my faith in the concept of a creator validated.

From my standpoint that is really too bad. The only hope you have from here is worm bait.

To each his own.

There are plenty of Christians here that can point you in a direction different than the one you have chosen just in case you change your mind.

JohnnyV13
05-19-2007, 07:22 PM
Frankly, I agree with Chiefs4Ever. Gods laws are very easy to follow.

Recently, I discovered that the minister's daughter from the Church in my neighborhood moved to Los Angeles and became a prostitute. Being a follower of God's law i felt compelled to fly to LA and burn her to death. (If a priest's daughter is a whore, she is to be burnt at the stake. (Leviticus 21:9)

I also discovered that my brother has become a homosexual. I just recently bought a gun to put him out of his misery, as per god's law. I'll also perform the same service for his boyfriend because Leviticus 20:13 clearly states "If a man also lie with mankind, as he lieth with a woman, both of them have committed an abomination: they shall surely be put to death; their blood shall be upon them."

I have never shaved or cut my hair because I follow God's clear law. Don't cut your hair nor shave. (Leviticus 19:27) This week I am petitioning congress to outlaw barber shops.

I recently heard the Jerry Springer show is doing a show with the topic, "I slept with my father's wife". I have dutifully bought a ticket for the show and sufficient plastic explosive to blow up the green room, because "If a man sleeps with his father's wife... both him and his father's wife is to be put to death." (Leviticus 20:11)

I am currently compiling a list of all palm readers and psychics in the United States. I have also gathered a lot of rocks since psychics, wizards, and so on are to be stoned to death. (Leviticus 20:27) I'm starting with John Edward.

Next week, I am setting up a booth outside my local church to ensure that people who have flat noses, or are blind or lame, do not go to an altar of God (Leviticus 21:17-18). I guess they must get plastic surgery first, or wait for Jesus to heal them. I presume this law also means that Asians are mostly out of luck when it comes to seeking religious salvation.

I ask everyone here to remember our christian duty requires us to take rocks to chiefs games. If you hear cursing in the stands or on the field, God requires you to immediately punish the offenders. Anyone who curses or blasphemes God, should be stoned to death by the community. (Leviticus 24:14)

As a public service, if you come upon your neighbor having sex with an animal, I remind everyone that killing your neighbor isn't enough, you also must remember to kill the animal too. If a man or woman has sex with an animal, both human and animal must be killed. (Leviticus 20:15-16)

Frankly, we, as a community need to petition President Bush and instruct him on the "Christian" way to conduct the war in Iraq. We must remind him that "If you find out a city worships a different god, destroy the city and kill all of it's inhabitants... even the animals." (Deuteronomy 13:12-15). He needs to stop dilly-dallying and drop the bomb.

Frankly, I'm appalled at the poor job we are doing in following God's law. We should stop wasting time interpreting our religion if we want a just society.

Logical
05-19-2007, 07:27 PM
So what do you believe GOD's laws are? Hate him and hate your neighbor more than yourself? :pGoChiefs has it right. There are no laws directly from the Creator. That does not mean that many of the religious morals are not excellent guides for humankind.

Programmer
05-21-2007, 03:36 PM
GoChiefs has it right. There are no laws directly from the Creator. That does not mean that many of the religious morals are not excellent guides for humankind.

You believe that because you don't believe in the bible. So are you also repulsed by Allah and the Quran? What about some of the other religions and or beliefs?

What do their books of philosophy do for you?

Count Zarth
05-21-2007, 03:40 PM
You believe that because you don't believe in the bible. So are you also repulsed by Allah and the Quran? What about some of the other religions and or beliefs?

What do their books of philosophy do for you?

I'm guessing nothing.

munkey
05-21-2007, 03:59 PM
Frankly, I agree with Chiefs4Ever. Gods laws are very easy to follow.

Recently, I discovered that the minister's daughter from the Church in my neighborhood moved to Los Angeles and became a prostitute. Being a follower of God's law i felt compelled to fly to LA and burn her to death. (If a priest's daughter is a whore, she is to be burnt at the stake. (Leviticus 21:9)

I also discovered that my brother has become a homosexual. I just recently bought a gun to put him out of his misery, as per god's law. I'll also perform the same service for his boyfriend because Leviticus 20:13 clearly states "If a man also lie with mankind, as he lieth with a woman, both of them have committed an abomination: they shall surely be put to death; their blood shall be upon them."

I have never shaved or cut my hair because I follow God's clear law. Don't cut your hair nor shave. (Leviticus 19:27) This week I am petitioning congress to outlaw barber shops.



I recently heard the Jerry Springer show is doing a show with the topic, "I slept with my father's wife". I have dutifully bought a ticket for the show and sufficient plastic explosive to blow up the green room, because "If a man sleeps with his father's wife... both him and his father's wife is to be put to death." (Leviticus 20:11)

I am currently compiling a list of all palm readers and psychics in the United States. I have also gathered a lot of rocks since psychics, wizards, and so on are to be stoned to death. (Leviticus 20:27) I'm starting with John Edward.

Next week, I am setting up a booth outside my local church to ensure that people who have flat noses, or are blind or lame, do not go to an altar of God (Leviticus 21:17-18). I guess they must get plastic surgery first, or wait for Jesus to heal them. I presume this law also means that Asians are mostly out of luck when it comes to seeking religious salvation.

I ask everyone here to remember our christian duty requires us to take rocks to chiefs games. If you hear cursing in the stands or on the field, God requires you to immediately punish the offenders. Anyone who curses or blasphemes God, should be stoned to death by the community. (Leviticus 24:14)

As a public service, if you come upon your neighbor having sex with an animal, I remind everyone that killing your neighbor isn't enough, you also must remember to kill the animal too. If a man or woman has sex with an animal, both human and animal must be killed. (Leviticus 20:15-16)

Frankly, we, as a community need to petition President Bush and instruct him on the "Christian" way to conduct the war in Iraq. We must remind him that "If you find out a city worships a different god, destroy the city and kill all of it's inhabitants... even the animals." (Deuteronomy 13:12-15). He needs to stop dilly-dallying and drop the bomb.

Frankly, I'm appalled at the poor job we are doing in following God's law. We should stop wasting time interpreting our religion if we want a just society.

Organized religion is a bitch ain't it...

Slick32
05-21-2007, 04:45 PM
Organized religion is a bitch ain't it...


only if: Location: east egypt, I-da-ho (U-da-ho, Be-a-ho)


.

munkey
05-21-2007, 07:13 PM
only if: Location: east egypt, I-da-ho (U-da-ho, Be-a-ho)


.


:spock: