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Mr. Laz
05-28-2007, 03:33 PM
the left wants to give everyone a hug and just open the gates to mexico and make us all one big happy family.

the right wants to kill'em all and let GOD sort it out

;) yes it's the extreme position .. but now that i have your attention. :D

how about this ...


we take a GOP approach about our border .... shut it down and close it up. i still prefer putting military bases down there then just The Great Wall of China err U.S.

we take the Dem approach about existing immigrants ... if they aren't robbing and pillaging then they can apply and become legal.



close it up first ....... give everyone a hug next.

jAZ
05-28-2007, 03:37 PM
In large part, I think that's the Dem approach.

banyon
05-28-2007, 03:39 PM
In large part, I think that's the Dem approach.

The Dems have co-opted the Bush/corporatist view that we continually need this supply of cheap labor so that wages will remain low and unions will be weak.

jAZ
05-28-2007, 03:40 PM
And to be clear, I strongly support this.

The thing it doesn't address is what we do about legal immigarants going forward. Increase work visas, etc?

BucEyedPea
05-28-2007, 03:41 PM
immigration compromise

My compromise is going to be set of hand-cuffs.

That's less than killin' 'em and more than huggin' em.

And when I get through these insane deadlines over the next month I'm really going to buy a pair and bone up on citizen's arrests.

Mr. Laz
05-28-2007, 03:42 PM
In large part, I think that's the Dem approach.
not that i've seen

most Dems i see talking don't want "a wall" type situation. They don't like the idea and don't think it will work.

They prefer to try and make things better in mexico so people won't want to come to the U.S.A. approach. They also think we should punish the people that hire illegals so that people won't have jobs and therefore a reason to come to the U.S.

Slick32
05-28-2007, 03:42 PM
I do not support letting those that came in illegally to be absorbed into our society. Everyone that becomes an immigrant to the US needs to do it via the method that has been on the books for many years.

How should all of those that tried to immigrate legally and been turned down feel about the new immigration policy (should it come into effect?)

Come to America and become citizens legally, cut ties with your home country and assimilate to the U.S. Learn the language, pay the taxes. After taxes send what you want to your family still in Mexico, but there is a cost to live free, we all pay our own way.

jAZ
05-28-2007, 03:46 PM
The Dems have co-opted the Bush/corporatist view that we continually need this supply of cheap labor so that wages will remain low and unions will be weak.
The "so unions will be weak" isn't accurate. It's a mixed bag for unions. A competing labor pool (but needed labor, IMO)... but also an opportunity to unionize millions and millions of laborers.

It's basically a push as far a unions go, IMO.

Mr. Laz
05-28-2007, 03:47 PM
immigration compromise

My compromise is going to be set of hand-cuffs.

That's less than killin' 'em and more than huggin' em.

And when I get through these insane deadlines over the next month I'm really going to buy a pair and bone up on citizen's arrests.

look out folks .... here comes BEP!! ROFL



http://i23.photobucket.com/albums/b381/cntrtop/marine2.jpg

Mr. Laz
05-28-2007, 03:48 PM
I do not support letting those that came in illegally to be absorbed into our society. Everyone that becomes an immigrant to the US needs to do it via the method that has been on the books for many years.

How should all of those that tried to immigrate legally and been turned down feel about the new immigration policy (should it come into effect?)

Come to America and become citizens legally, cut ties with your home country and assimilate to the U.S. Learn the language, pay the taxes. After taxes send what you want to your family still in Mexico, but there is a cost to live free, we all pay our own way.

that's why it's called a compromise ..... read,learn,live

jAZ
05-28-2007, 03:49 PM
not that i've seen

most Dems i see talking don't want "a wall" type situation. They don't like the idea and don't think it will work.

They prefer to try and make things better in mexico so people won't want to come to the U.S.A. approach. They also think we should punish the people that hire illegals so that people won't have jobs and therefore a reason to come to the U.S.
Mabe I'm biased by being in Tucson, but Dems are willing to secure the border but suspect that a physical wall is a boondoggle. But the spirit of the proposal (blocking illegal movement across the boarder) is supported by Dems.

Logical
05-28-2007, 03:56 PM
I am for bringing most of the troops back home from Iraq and stationing them along the border. But the fence is a waste of time and money. I am OK with your compromise based on this modidifcation.

HolmeZz
05-28-2007, 04:03 PM
LEARN THE LANGUAGE, MIS AMIGOS. COMPRENDE?

banyon
05-28-2007, 04:05 PM
The "so unions will be weak" isn't accurate. It's a mixed bag for unions. A competing labor pool (but needed labor, IMO)... but also an opportunity to unionize millions and millions of laborers.

It's basically a push as far a unions go, IMO.

In other words, it's good for labor leaders who can collect more dues and increase their own compensation, but bad for the already-existing union members who will have to compete against the new workers for lower pay.

I'm beginning to see why wages have been stagnant in this country for 25 years. :banghead:

Mr. Laz
05-28-2007, 04:08 PM
I am for bringing most of the troops back home from Iraq and stationing them along the border. But the fence is a waste of time and money. I am OK with your compromise based on this modidifcation.
works for me ... they need training in that type of terrain and situation anyway.

build training bases all along the southern border ... the fences of the bases act like a partial fence. The night ops and desert security training should help substantially.

we can put fencing up in certain area, between the bases, where we don't do much training,


we also let the Mexican government know that from now on we will be deducting the cost for each illegal we catch,detain and then ship back from the money we send them in financial aid.

jAZ
05-28-2007, 04:31 PM
In other words, it's good for labor leaders who can collect more dues and increase their own compensation, but bad for the already-existing union members who will have to compete against the new workers for lower pay.

I'm beginning to see why wages have been stagnant in this country for 25 years. :banghead:
Does this logic apply to kids coming out of highschool and into the workforce who join unions and work for lowest wages?

Unionizing immigrants can only help union WORKERS who have to compete with off the books laborers who are working at below union wages.

jAZ
05-28-2007, 04:32 PM
works for me ... they need training in that type of terrain and situation anyway.

build training bases all along the southern border ... the fences of the bases act like a partial fence. The night ops and desert security training should help substantially.

we can put fencing up in certain area, between the bases, where we don't do much training.
Agreed.

Ultimately... and in the same way as with Iraq... we need to address the underlying cause of why people leave home to work in the US. And that's a crappy economy in Mexico.

That can't be the strategy we lead with because there is no short-term solution. But we can't stick our head in the sand and pretend that border security alone will solve the problem either.

banyon
05-28-2007, 04:39 PM
Does this logic apply to kids coming out of highschool and into the workforce who join unions and work for lowest wages?

No. Those kids are replacing retiring workers at the replacement rate. They also have certain expectations about their quality of living, increased wages over time, paying taxes, and retirement that are not shared by the incoming immigrants who will not make such demands on their employers.

Unionizing immigrants can only help union WORKERS who have to compete with off the books laborers who are working at below union wages.

This statement assumes that nothing can be done to reduce the number of illegal workers (a Hobson's choice), which is a premise that I am not willing to grant.

'Hamas' Jenkins
05-28-2007, 04:52 PM
I'm for the following options:

1) Sea mines in the Rio Grande
2) Pot Mines, wooden mines, sown across the heaviest trafficked areas, with fields of Concertina wire woven from 500 yards past the border to it.
3) An overlapping system of border patrol guards in a spotter/shooter set ups.The spotter uses a massive halogen light to blind the perps, the shooter uses an M249 SAW with this weapon as backup for...area denial:

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/f/f9/Usafl_notes_.jpg


Yeah, that's the ticket :D

ChiefaRoo
05-28-2007, 04:56 PM
I am for bringing most of the troops back home from Iraq and stationing them along the border. But the fence is a waste of time and money. I am OK with your compromise based on this modidifcation.

The fence would be cheaper than doing that you moron.

HolmeZz
05-28-2007, 04:57 PM
The fence would be cheaper than doing that you moron.

It doesn't matter if it's cheaper if it's not effective.

ChiefaRoo
05-28-2007, 04:59 PM
It doesn't matter if it's cheaper if it's not effective.

Of course it would be effective. It works everywhere it's tried. Army bases, Israel, your house. I mean get fooking real you tree hugging poosies it's a straight forward solution that would solve the majority of the problem backed up by proper maint., men and high tech aerial surveillance.

Logical
05-28-2007, 05:11 PM
The fence would be cheaper than doing that you moron.If the fence would be effective, it might be less expensive but even that is questionable. You might achieve better communication if you left out the insults.

HolmeZz
05-28-2007, 05:12 PM
Of course it would be effective. It works everywhere it's tried. Army bases, Israel, your house. I mean get fooking real you tree hugging poosies it's a straight forward solution that would solve the majority of the problem backed up by proper maint., men and high tech aerial surveillance.

That sounds pretty expensive. Not cheaper than what Logical proposed.

jAZ
05-28-2007, 05:13 PM
Those kids are replacing retiring workers at the replacement rate.
You are telling me that there is a 1:1 ratio between retiring, dying union labor exiting the workforce and those young HS kids entering union workforce?

I think you'll find you can't support that claim anywhere.

Cochise
05-28-2007, 05:14 PM
It wouldn't be bad to legalize some people. Legalizing 20 million people along with all the people who would come over the border in anticipation of it... terrible idea.

First priority should be constructing a wall. Not a fence, a wall. Concrete, 30 feet high, use whatever tech we have at our disposal, whatever. Just close it.

After that, if we legalize a few people a year (not eleventy bajillion at once) after they are screened and we deport the bad apples, that wouldn't be so bad. They went around on this in the 80s if I recall, Reagan would have allowed a guest worker program of some sort in exchange for closing the border and all that, but congress wasn't having it.

Logical
05-28-2007, 05:14 PM
By the way the fence they have built so far has not been effective. They come via the beaches or through the 4 tunnels that they have built under it that we discovered. Who knows how many tunnels we have not discovered. Some are 25 feet underground.

Logical
05-28-2007, 05:29 PM
It wouldn't be bad to legalize some people. Legalizing 20 million people along with all the people who would come over the border in anticipation of it... terrible idea.

First priority should be constructing a wall. Not a fence, a wall. Concrete, 30 feet high, use whatever tech we have at our disposal, whatever. Just close it.

After that, if we legalize a few people a year (not eleventy bajillion at once) after they are screened and we deport the bad apples, that wouldn't be so bad. They went around on this in the 80s if I recall, Reagan would have allowed a guest worker program of some sort in exchange for closing the border and all that, but congress wasn't having it.
Now you are talking a trillion dollar wall, remember this has to be 2000+ miles long and even at that it does not secure the beaches and coastline.

banyon
05-28-2007, 05:36 PM
You are telling me that there is a 1:1 ratio between retiring, dying union labor exiting the workforce and those young HS kids entering union workforce?

I think you'll find you can't support that claim anywhere.

I didn't mean to imply that it was a 100% correlation.

Quite the contrary, union membership rolls have been on the decline for years, so it would be worse than a 1:1 ratio.

What about the other points I raised?

ChiefaRoo
05-28-2007, 05:41 PM
That sounds pretty expensive. Not cheaper than what Logical proposed.

You're stuck on stupid.

ChiefaRoo
05-28-2007, 05:42 PM
If the fence would be effective, it might be less expensive but even that is questionable. You might achieve better communication if you left out the insults.

I'm sorry. You're not a moron. You're an idiot.

By the way your idea would violate the Posse Comitatus Act which prohibits the US military from acting in a law enforcement role.

Adept Havelock
05-28-2007, 05:46 PM
Now you are talking a trillion dollar wall, remember this has to be 2000+ miles long and even at that it does not secure the beaches and coastline.


Not to mention all of the Col. Jessup's you need to clone to man that wall. They won't come cheap. Unless you want to install Stasi style "funnel guns" and such.

A wall would help a bit, sure. It remains to be seen if the help the wall gave offsets the cost of it.

Mr. Laz
05-28-2007, 05:48 PM
so much for compromise ...


if we can't even be civil in a simple thread discussing a possible compromise then it's no wonder why our government can't do it.

HolmeZz
05-28-2007, 05:49 PM
Your stuck on stupid.

My stuck?

ChiefaRoo
05-28-2007, 05:54 PM
Not to mention all of the Col. Jessup's you need to clone to man that wall. They won't come cheap. Unless you want to install Stasi style "funnel guns" and such.

A wall would help a bit, sure. It remains to be seen if the help the wall gave offsets the cost of it.

A) It doesn't need to be 2000 miles long
B) It's not a military operation you don't need to man it as such
C) The idea is to keep the inflow to a minimum
D) Sensors and other relatively cheap methods would monitor the border

ChiefaRoo
05-28-2007, 05:56 PM
so much for compromise ...


if we can even be civil in a simple thread discussing a possible compromise then it's no wonder why our government can't do it.

I hate cats too.

BucEyedPea
05-28-2007, 06:06 PM
By the way your idea would violate the Posse Comitatus Act which prohibits the US military from acting in a law enforcement role.
By, bye Posse Comitatus....that was signed away last fall buried in a bill quietly. Despite all 50 governors protesting it.

'Hamas' Jenkins
05-28-2007, 06:07 PM
Not to mention all of the Col. Jessup's you need to clone to man that wall. .

ROFL ROFL

BucEyedPea
05-28-2007, 06:25 PM
I'd like to see something artistic and worthy of the history books...something just like old castle walls with parapets on top, stone towers, a moat and drawbridges for key passing points.

Something we could see from space too.

Wasn't the great wall of China built to keep out the Mongol nomads?
That thing still continues to amaze the world. I hear it took one human life to create every foot. I'm sure we could do better n' that. Let's keep our perspective now. :D

Adept Havelock
05-28-2007, 06:26 PM
I'd like to see something artistic and worthy of the history books...something just like old castle walls with parapets on top, stone towers, a moat and drawbridges for key passing points.

Something we could see if from space too.

Wasn't the great wall of China built to keep out the Mongol nomads?
That thing still continues to amaze the world. I hear it took one human life to create every foot. I'm sure we could do better n' that. :D

The Chinese legend is one laborer died for every stone in that wall. Probably an exaggeration, but not by much I'd guess.

By, bye Posse Comitatus....that was signed away last fall buried in a bill quietly. Despite all 50 governors protesting it.

:eek:

Well, shi*.

BucEyedPea
05-28-2007, 06:32 PM
:eek:

Well, shi*.

That's what I said!
All with no debate. Bush had said he wanted that after Katrina but then the point seemed to die. Bob Barr wrote about it earlier.

Logical
05-28-2007, 06:33 PM
I'm sorry. You're not a moron. You're an idiot.

By the way your idea would violate the Posse Comitatus Act which prohibits the US military from acting in a law enforcement role.

That is open to question. The military would be acting to turn back illegal inaders of this country. As such I am not sure it does violate the provisions of that act.

Logical
05-28-2007, 06:34 PM
so much for compromise ...


if we can't even be civil in a simple thread discussing a possible compromise then it's no wonder why our government can't do it.

Don't despair too much except for one uncivil poster the rest of us are discussing the options and debating the merits therein.

Logical
05-28-2007, 06:38 PM
I'd like to see something artistic and worthy of the history books...something just like old castle walls with parapets on top, stone towers, a moat and drawbridges for key passing points.

Something we could see from space too.

Wasn't the great wall of China built to keep out the Mongol nomads?
That thing still continues to amaze the world. I hear it took one human life to create every foot. I'm sure we could do better n' that. Let's keep our perspective now. :D
Then at least we could make money off it as a tourist attaction, and in a 1000 years the people living on another planet in our colonies could say look at the amazing trillion dollar wall that we can see from Alpha Centari, and say it did not work but it was an amazing feat of engineering and stupidity.

mlyonsd
05-28-2007, 06:38 PM
I agree to close it up first. But that's the toughest question which no one in politics wants to touch. On either side.

Term limits man, term limits.

Logical
05-28-2007, 06:40 PM
I agree to close it up first. But that's the toughest question which no one in politics wants to touch. On either side.

Term limits man, term limits.I agree but I bet BEP doesn't. Not constitutional I am sure would be her position.

mlyonsd
05-28-2007, 06:41 PM
I agree but I bet BEP doesn't. Not constitutional I am sure would be her position.

And she'll probably lump both of us into some catchy named political group for thinking it.

Adept Havelock
05-28-2007, 06:46 PM
I agree to close it up first. But that's the toughest question which no one in politics wants to touch. On either side.

Term limits man, term limits.


Abso-freaking-lutely. I'd love to see them. For the Senate, two terms and that's it. For the House? Part of me says 1...make it truly "The People's House", part of me says 3-4 to keep some parity with the Senate.

As would getting rid of legal bribery...or as it's known today, "Lobbying".

Mr. Laz
05-28-2007, 06:49 PM
As would getting rid of legal bribery...or as it's known today, "Lobbying".
:clap:



one of the best things we could do




.

Slick32
05-28-2007, 09:48 PM
that's why it's called a compromise ..... read,learn,live

There is no logical reason to compromise with illegal aliens.

Slick32
05-28-2007, 09:49 PM
Land mines and motion sensors make sense to me. It seems to work around Guantanamo Bay, Cuba. None of our guys have gone to Havana for shore leave and no Cubans have invaded the base.

HolmeZz
05-28-2007, 10:17 PM
Let's blow'em the **** up.

Logical
05-28-2007, 11:27 PM
Let's blow'em the **** up.

I am not sure why we would want to stop at land mines, those are inconsistent. Motion sensors with laser guided munitions would be so much more effective and spectacular.

ChiefaRoo
05-28-2007, 11:35 PM
I am not sure why we would want to stop at land mines, those are inconsistent. Motion sensors with laser guided munitions would be so much more effective and spectacular.

We should use a Neutron bomb on all of Mexico and Iran while we're at it. Then logical can move to Mexico City and live with the cockaroaches.

'Hamas' Jenkins
05-28-2007, 11:37 PM
F*ck that, I'll write my congressman to restart Zyklon B showers. THAT'LL TEACH EM!!

Gassing Mexicans FTW!!!

Logical
05-28-2007, 11:49 PM
We should use a Neutron bomb on all of Mexico and Iran while we're at it. Then logical can move to Mexico City and live with the cockaroaches.

Well I would likely get more intelligent conversations with cockroaches than I do with you.

ChiefaRoo
05-29-2007, 12:12 AM
Well I would likely get more intelligent conversations with cockroaches than I do with you.

That's Cockaroaches.

Logical
05-29-2007, 12:21 AM
That's Cockaroaches.
Maybe if you are from the Ozarks.


Main Entry: cock·roach opWin('/cgi-bin/audio.pl?cockro01.wav=cockroach')
Pronunciation: 'käk-"rOch
Function: noun
Etymology: by folk etymology from Spanish cucaracha cockroach
: any of an order or suborder (Blattodea syn. Blattaria) of chiefly nocturnal insects including some that are domestic pests -- compare

HolmeZz
05-29-2007, 12:39 AM
That's Cockaroaches.

Those anything like ChiefaRooaches?

ChiefaRoo
05-29-2007, 01:08 AM
Those anything like ChiefaRooaches?

Is that a joke in Connecticut or are you just retarded?

ChiefaRoo
05-29-2007, 01:09 AM
Maybe if you are from the Ozarks.


Main Entry: cock·roach opWin('/cgi-bin/audio.pl?cockro01.wav=cockroach')
Pronunciation: 'käk-"rOch
Function: noun
Etymology: by folk etymology from Spanish cucaracha cockroach
: any of an order or suborder (Blattodea syn. Blattaria) of chiefly nocturnal insects including some that are domestic pests -- compare

I was using the Spanish spelling. :)

Logical
05-29-2007, 01:13 AM
I was using the Spanish spelling. :)

Nice try but that would be Cucaracha.

ChiefaRoo
05-29-2007, 01:16 AM
Nice try but that would be Cucaracha.

I spell it the way I like as I am King Kong up here in this MF'er

'Hamas' Jenkins
05-29-2007, 02:31 AM
I was using the Spanish spelling. :)

I think you mean coked-out Cuban spelling.

HolmeZz
05-29-2007, 09:36 AM
Is that a joke in Connecticut or are you just retarded?

Your sense of humor is passed only by your intellect.