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Claynus
06-04-2007, 01:14 PM
http://www.kcchiefs.com/news/2007/06/04/gretz_living_the_gunther_manifesto/

GRETZ: Living the Gunther Manifesto
Jun 04, 2007, 8:53:44 AM by Bob Gretz - FAQ

Gunther Cunningham smiles a lot these days.

Events like this past weekend’s mini-camp can generate even more smiles from the Chiefs defensive coordinator.

“We’ve got something building here,” Cunningham said. “This is what I was talking about, this is what I wanted to do when I came back here. I wanted to bring defense back to Kansas City.”

This is the fourth season Cunningham will be in charge of the defense in his second tour of duty with the team. When he came back to join Dick Vermeil’s staff in 2004, he found a defense in tatters on the field, on the roster and in the minds of just about everyone at Arrowhead Stadium. There was no longer a defensive culture in the building.

That was far different from Cunningham’s first trip through Arrowhead. When he arrived in 1995, defense ruled the roost for the Chiefs under Marty Schottenheimer. Cunningham added to that as defensive coordinator.

All that was gone by 2004 and Cunningham’s frustration grew on a daily basis. Whatever emotion comes after the feeling of beating your head against a brick wall is where he resided on most days. There was marginal talent, no fire and no defensive attitude. He had been through many things in over 30 years of coaching, but nothing sapped his energy and passion more than the 2004 and 2005 seasons. That overwhelming frustration led to the “Gunther Manifesto.”

Cunningham poured out his feelings by producing an eight-page document called simply: “Culture of the Chiefs Defense.” It was a game plan on how to change the prevailing attitudes he found at Arrowhead Stadium when it came to his side of the football. Only a handful of people have seen the full manifesto, and it won’t be coming to a Barnes & Noble any time soon. It begins with three simple statements:

1. The embedded beliefs, values and behavior patterns carry tremendous voltage.
2. It doesn’t make sense to try to change culture according to the old rules.
3. The rules themselves are part of the problem.

The rules changed last year when Herm Edwards became head coach. Now, as the team prepares for the second season of the Edwards Era, there has been a huge culture shift on the team, and especially on the defense.

Production and performance improved on that side of the football in 2006, as the Chiefs climbed from the lower ranks of the league to the middle of the pack.

But mediocre is not something that satisfies Edwards and Cunningham. They want more, much more. This isn’t about just one game, or one season. This is about re-establishing a defensive culture.

Right now, still three months from the start of the 2007 season, the Chiefs are much closer to realizing the theme of the Gunther Manifesto.

“The first priority was to get some tough guys and I think that first draft last year is the keynote of the plan,” said Cunningham. “We got Tamba (Hali), Jarrad (Page) and Bernard (Pollard.)

“This year, we knew what we wanted out of the draft on defense. We believe we have dotted the I’s and crossed the T’s by the type of people we are getting. Each guy we drafted fits not only the overall personality of what this defense is going to be, but the personality of the head coach and all the assistants and definitely what I believe.”

The turnover has been dramatic. Just check out the defensive starters from the opener two years ago to the projected starters for this season’s opener in Houston:

http://www.kcchiefs.com/media/images/016636963A8A450E973FCE0FF57BB157.GIF?0.012481830500539748

(Author’s note: the projected starters for the ‘07 opener were not named by Edwards or Cunningham. They are my assessment.)

Right now there are only two defensive players still on the roster who were part of the team before Cunningham returned: Wesley and defensive lineman Jimmy Wilkerson.

“We’ve looked at a lot of players, at a lot of tape and there was a commitment made by Carl (Peterson) and Bill Kuharich (VP of player personnel) to find us players,” Cunningham said.

“But the guy making it go is Herm.”

Coming on Wednesday: More about the Chiefs defense and the seemingly unlikely football marriage of Herm Edwards and Gunther Cunningham

CoMoChief
06-04-2007, 01:20 PM
GO GUNTHER!!!!!

Gunther is the greatest DC in NFL history.

Claynus
06-04-2007, 01:22 PM
Honestly...a ****ing manifesto?

ChiefsfaninPA
06-04-2007, 01:23 PM
Honestly...a ****ing manifesto?


Desperate times calls for desperate measures.

InChiefsHell
06-04-2007, 01:25 PM
Ever notice that at the beginning of OTA's, Gretz does an article on Gun that always seems to start out with "Gunther Cunningham is smiling a lot these days..."

I swear, every season there is an article that talks about how absolutely giddy 'ol Gun is over this year's defense. Last year was the first good year, let's hope it's a trend. But if you search on his articles, I'm positive you will find that in 2004 and again in 2005, Gun was positively giggly like a school girl over how great his defense was going to be this year... :rolleyes:

Dr. Facebook Fever
06-04-2007, 01:29 PM
Honestly...a ****ing manifesto?
This man is totally invested in his job. It's not just a job... it really is a passion. I love it.

Chiefnj
06-04-2007, 01:33 PM
Those 2005 "bums" were the players Gun wanted. Hell, in 2004 Gunther said it wasn't the players, it was the scheme.

htismaqe
06-04-2007, 01:39 PM
Those 2005 "bums" were the players Gun wanted. Hell, in 2004 Gunther said it wasn't the players, it was the scheme.

Yep.

Dr. Facebook Fever
06-04-2007, 01:39 PM
Those 2005 "bums" were the players Gun wanted. Hell, in 2004 Gunther said it wasn't the players, it was the scheme.
Good point.

Kerberos
06-04-2007, 01:58 PM
Honestly...a ****ing manifesto?

It's a "Mission Statement"

Gunther will be having lunch with his agent sometime this week to discuss it!

Pushead2
06-04-2007, 02:02 PM
This board is for the Chiefs?? I forgot.

HemiEd
06-04-2007, 02:24 PM
Those 2005 "bums" were the players Gun wanted. Hell, in 2004 Gunther said it wasn't the players, it was the scheme.

Eggsactly! He is always capable of finding an excuse. I still think Carl forced this guy back on Vermeil to ease his own concience. Kind of like bringing back Donnie Edwards.
I like Carl, but everyone has their faults.

Logical
06-04-2007, 02:38 PM
Those 2005 "bums" were the players Gun wanted. Hell, in 2004 Gunther said it wasn't the players, it was the scheme.

Absof*ckinglutely

Reerun_KC
06-04-2007, 02:42 PM
So should someone start the www.firegunther.com website now?


Get a rope!

CoMoChief
06-04-2007, 02:51 PM
Anyone ever been to this site?

www.guntheristhebestdcinthenfl.com

Reerun_KC
06-04-2007, 02:52 PM
Anyone ever been to this site?

www.guntheristhebestdcinthenfl.com


dude that is NSFW, it pulled up Redrums moms site!

Steve Sewell
06-04-2007, 02:56 PM
That chart is pretty cool. I didn't realize how much the Chiefs have overhauled their defense since 2005. 9 out of 11 starters...that's nuts.

Reerun_KC
06-04-2007, 02:59 PM
That chart is pretty cool. I didn't realize how much the Chiefs have overhauled their defense since 2005. 9 out of 11 starters...that's nuts.


Might be nuts, but most of them sucked major ass and it was defiantly time for an upgrade...

bdeg
06-04-2007, 03:04 PM
Well when they interview him what do you want him to say? "Ya, we're gonna be really bad again this year..." I'm sure that'd go over real well with the players.

Chiefnj
06-04-2007, 03:04 PM
&A GUNTHER CUNNINGHAM
Apr 30, 2005, 1:07:34 PM



Q: How do you feel about the additions to the defense?



CUNNINGHAM: “Carl Peterson, Denny Thum, Lynn Stiles and Bill Kuharich had a plan. We got together, we met for hours and hours to tried to develop the plan. The original plan came to fruition and that’s what I enjoyed. We developed a game plan and were able to bring some new players in. We targeted those players and we got them.”

Q: What do you envision for this defense?

CUNNINGHAM: “The organization had a goal to reshape our defensive personnel so we could put a product on the field that was better than last year. We’ve got the players, now what we have to do is turn the calendar back. I know what I like on defense. That takes a lot of time. We spend hours talking about philosophy and our approach to the game. I think that philosophy is coming across. What we’d like to do is play like we used to around here. That’s the goal I see at the end of my dream to the bring back the explosion and speed, taking the ball away and putting it in ‘Amen Corner,’ we’d like to be able to score on defense.”

Q: How excited are you about using the tools Carl Peterson has given you on defense?

CUNNINGHAM: “The biggest thing for me is that Carl knows what I’m all about and I definitely know what he’s all about. That’s the reason I came back here. He’s tough. He’s hard-core when it comes to management and doing the right things. That’s who I wanted to be with. He stepped on the table at the end of the season. Everybody got involved in the Personnel Department. We had a plan and Carl stuck to that plan. I know everybody was getting impatient and you weren’t the only ones. It’s difficult to go through three months when you know the plan, but not everybody else (in the media and the public) knew it. When you talk about (CB) Samari Rolle, we had four or five guys listed who I felt that if we got one of them, we could go to work. It was the same thing with the linebackers. It was Julian Peterson and Kendrell Bell or Kendrell Bell and Julian Peterson. When Julian signed, we saw Kendrell sitting there and we said, ‘let’s go to work.’

“With all the negotiations, it’s a difficult job, but he (Carl) got it done. It’s a difficult, difficult job. But Carl, along with Denny and Woodie Dixon got it done. There’s three guys working on it. Woodie went to Harvard and I didn’t, so I stepped out of that part and they did it.”

DMAC
06-04-2007, 03:07 PM
Those 2005 "bums" were the players Gun wanted. Hell, in 2004 Gunther said it wasn't the players, it was the scheme.
Of course he said that...do you really want to "out" your players on a national scale. No Way. That would not quite motivate them, you know.

He was taking the blame. Of course it's the players. He knew that.

Fruit Ninja
06-04-2007, 03:08 PM
Those 2005 "bums" were the players Gun wanted. Hell, in 2004 Gunther said it wasn't the players, it was the scheme.
Them 2005 guys were some of the guys Gun wanted. He still had the rest of the shithole defense.

I am not saying Gun is a saviour or anything, but our defense was just horrible, beyond horrible.


and what do you expect Gun to say? oh, we stand no chance, why even bother to take the field. Get serious.

The Rick
06-04-2007, 03:09 PM
It's a "Mission Statement"

Gunther will be having lunch with his agent sometime this week to discuss it!
ROFL

I was waiting for a Jerry Maguire reference!

I figured it would be something along the lines of Gun saying to Herm: "YOU. COMPLETE. ME." :)

DMAC
06-04-2007, 03:12 PM
Them 2005 guys were some of the guys Gun wanted. He still had the rest of the shithole defense.

EXACTLY. Look at the players he wanted...Johnson, Surtain, Knight, Bell (one mess up...but you would have taken him too). So that remark earlier is effin way off.

htismaqe
06-04-2007, 03:14 PM
Gunther stood on the table in the War Room and jumped up and down because he wanted us to draft...































Junior Siavii

htismaqe
06-04-2007, 03:15 PM
EXACTLY. Look at the players he wanted...Johnson, Surtain, Knight, Bell (one mess up...but you would have taken him too). So that remark earlier is effin way off.

He also wanted Junior Siavii and Kendrell Bell.

DMAC
06-04-2007, 03:16 PM
He also wanted Junior Siavii and Kendrell Bell.
3 out of 5 ain't bad. It's actually quite good.

Mr. Laz
06-04-2007, 03:19 PM
Gunther is fine now that he has a defensive head coach to hold his hand ... err leash.

but he's hardly a great defensive mind

Chiefnj
06-04-2007, 03:19 PM
Them 2005 guys were some of the guys Gun wanted. He still had the rest of the shithole defense.

.

The first year Gun was in KC the Chiefs resigned the existing players because that was what Gun wanted. They were busy in free agency that year retaining their own poor players.

htismaqe
06-04-2007, 03:20 PM
3 out of 5 ain't bad. It's actually quite good.

Everybody wanted Derrick Johnson, he fell into their laps like a gift straight from Heaven.

Vermeil openly campaigned for Surtain. Nobody campaigned for Law.

Which leaves Siavii and Bell, who Gunther OPENLY admitted were on "his" wish list. Who Gunther openly and VEHEMENTLY defended even after they started to show signs of sucking on the field.

htismaqe
06-04-2007, 03:20 PM
The first year Gun was in KC the Chiefs resigned the existing players because that was what Gun wanted. They were busy in free agency that year retaining their own poor players.

Yep.

Gunther wanted Hicks, Woods, and Wesley re-signed the minute he got here.

DMAC
06-04-2007, 03:23 PM
Who Gunther openly and VEHEMENTLY defended even after they started to show signs of sucking on the field.
Again, I go back to this. Why would he "out" them? He was trying to motivate them I am sure.

I highly doubt that after their crappy games he went to them and said "Frikkin hell of a game guys, who needs the rest of the D when I have you!"

htismaqe
06-04-2007, 03:24 PM
Again, I go back to this. Why would he "out" them? He was trying to motivate them I am sure.

I highly doubt that after their crappy games he went to them and said "Frikkin hell of a game guys, who needs the rest of the D when I have you!"

There's a difference between

"I'm not gonna air dirty laundry about Kendrell Bell in public"

and

"I dare you to come to my office and say that to his face"

DMAC
06-04-2007, 03:24 PM
Fine, he sucks at finding players.

But he is a good coach and a hell of a motivator. Leave the finding players to Carl, let Gun coach them.

You dont want to fire Gun with the good talent we finally have.

Chiefnj
06-04-2007, 03:25 PM
Yep.

Gunther wanted Hicks, Woods, and Wesley re-signed the minute he got here.

Hicks, Woods, Wesley and Browning were his first signings.

The fab 4 of 2005 were Surtain, Bell, Knight and Hall.

Mr. Laz
06-04-2007, 03:28 PM
Fine, he sucks at finding players.

But he is a good coach and a hell of a motivator. Leave the finding players to Carl, let Gun coach them.

You dont want to fire Gun with the good talent we finally have.
carl doesn't do the player finding .... that's up to the coaches.

CoMoChief
06-04-2007, 04:00 PM
Gunther is awesome.

Fruit Ninja
06-04-2007, 04:09 PM
The first year Gun was in KC the Chiefs resigned the existing players because that was what Gun wanted. They were busy in free agency that year retaining their own poor players.
Becasue at the time, he probably thought he could win with them. THen when your finally in the drivers seat, and realize hey, these ****ing guys dont have it. Besides, there is no way they could have just got rid of them all in 1 damn season. Its just not possible.

the Talking Can
06-04-2007, 04:47 PM
Ever notice that at the beginning of OTA's, Gretz does an article on Gun that always seems to start out with "Gunther Cunningham is smiling a lot these days..."

I swear, every season there is an article that talks about how absolutely giddy 'ol Gun is over this year's defense.

yup...and the second sentence always involves Gun throwing someone under the bus...he never accepts personally responsibility...

Reerun_KC
06-04-2007, 05:47 PM
yup...and the second sentence always involves Gun throwing someone under the bus...he never accepts personally responsibility...


I see Herm has taught him well in just one year....

the Talking Can
06-04-2007, 05:50 PM
I see Herm has taught him well in just one year....

huh?

Gun has done it his whole career....

PinkFloyd
06-04-2007, 05:52 PM
Welcome to the 90's again... This defense will stomp ass while the offense sucks ass !!!

Reerun_KC
06-04-2007, 05:52 PM
huh?

Gun has done it his whole career....

Just being facetious

el borracho
06-05-2007, 12:02 AM
Gunther wanted Hicks, Woods, and Wesley re-signed the minute he got here.
Of those three Hicks was the only obvious stinker at that time. Wesley was arguably our best defensive player and Woods actually made the Pro Bowl around that time.

Kerberos
06-05-2007, 04:55 AM
If I am not mistaken Siavii was a "SECOND" choice under Igor Olshanskey that was taken by the Bolts ONE STINK'N pick before Siavii.

That would have been a MUCH better pick up than Jr. in a heartbeat. And had we NOT traded our First Round Pick we might have gotten a better player than Jr. as well. We got hosed all the way around on that deal.

htismaqe
06-05-2007, 08:04 AM
Becasue at the time, he probably thought he could win with them. THen when your finally in the drivers seat, and realize hey, these ****ing guys dont have it. Besides, there is no way they could have just got rid of them all in 1 damn season. Its just not possible.

It was absolutely possible. All of them were unrestricted FA's. We could have just said "see ya" with absolutely no consequence or cap hit.

htismaqe
06-05-2007, 08:05 AM
If I am not mistaken Siavii was a "SECOND" choice under Igor Olshanskey that was taken by the Bolts ONE STINK'N pick before Siavii.

That would have been a MUCH better pick up than Jr. in a heartbeat. And had we NOT traded our First Round Pick we might have gotten a better player than Jr. as well. We got hosed all the way around on that deal.

Gunther spoke GLOWINGLY about Siavii after that draft and how he "jumped up and down on the war room table" to get him...

htismaqe
06-05-2007, 08:06 AM
Of those three Hicks was the only obvious stinker at that time. Wesley was arguably our best defensive player and Woods actually made the Pro Bowl around that time.

???

Wesley was arguably our WORST defensive player at the time.

Reerun_KC
06-05-2007, 08:06 AM
It was absolutely possible. All of them were unrestricted FA's. We could have just said "see ya" with absolutely no consequence or cap hit.


Good Point!

Claynus
06-05-2007, 08:09 AM
???

Wesley was arguably our WORST defensive player at the time.

Dude, Wesley was never the worst player on any Chiefs defense.

InChiefsHell
06-05-2007, 08:12 AM
Indeed. Wesley is too inconsistent, but I can't ever see that he was the worst player on our roster...which ain't saying much for our roster, but still...

Radar Chief
06-05-2007, 08:21 AM
Becasue at the time, he probably thought he could win with them. THen when your finally in the drivers seat, and realize hey, these ****ing guys dont have it.

That tends to point to an inability to evaluate talent, wouldn’t you think?

Radar Chief
06-05-2007, 08:27 AM
Gunther is fine now that he has a defensive head coach to hold his hand ... err leash.

but he's hardly a great defensive mind

I always thought it was ironically, sadly, humorous that the first thing Herm did when he showed up was say, “Damn, your DT’s SUCK!” and went to free agency where he got us two DT’s that immediately replaced the starting DT’s from the previous season.

htismaqe
06-05-2007, 08:44 AM
Dude, Wesley was never the worst player on any Chiefs defense.

"arguably"

Know what that word means?

IT COULD BE ARGUED that Wesley was CLOSER to "worst" than he was to "best" on that defense.

Pushead2
06-05-2007, 08:47 AM
"arguably"

Know what that word means?

IT COULD BE ARGUED that Wesley was CLOSER to "worst" than he was to "best" on that defense.

Wesley was definitely not towards the "worst" part of the D in my opinion.

htismaqe
06-05-2007, 08:50 AM
Wesley was definitely not towards the "worst" part of the D in my opinion.

There's 11 players on defense. Being closer to "worst" than 'best" would require one to find at least 6 players on defense better than him at any given time.

From the day DV arrived in 2000, I GUARANTEE you that I could find 6 players on our defense that were better than him each and every season up to this past one.

htismaqe
06-05-2007, 08:56 AM
Wesley was definitely not towards the "worst" part of the D in my opinion.

Let me further qualify what I'm talking about.

People fondly remember Wesley's first couple of seasons, when he played SS in Gunther's attack defense.

From the first day we implemented GRob's Cover 2, he struggled. He's too stupid to play zone. So they brought back Gunther assuming that guys like Wesley would once again excel in that style of defense. Instead they moved him to free safety to make room for Sammy Knight, which further accentuated Wesley's weaknesses instead of his strengths. Enter Herm Edwards and change back to the Cover 2.

Combine all of that with Wesley's bad attitude and...

el borracho
06-05-2007, 10:21 AM
???

Wesley was arguably our WORST defensive player at the time.
Well, that isn't how I remember it. Which defensive players were on the team in 2004 and 2005 that were so much better?

htismaqe
06-05-2007, 10:26 AM
Well, that isn't how I remember it. Which defensive players were on the team in 2004 and 2005 that were so much better?

2004
Jared Allen
Scott Fujita
Kawika Mitchell
Eric Warfield
Lionel Dalton

All had better seasons than Wesley, IMO.

2005
Jared Allen
Patrick Surtain
Sammy Knight
Kawika Mitchell
Derrick Johnson

All had better seasons than Wesley, IMO.

el borracho
06-05-2007, 10:32 AM
You are correct about Allen, Surtain and Johnson- they are better players than Wesley. The rest seem about equal, maybe worse in some cases. Wesley does have a lot of interceptions over his career and he was at one time a big hitter. He isn't great now but I think he had more impact on our team than Fujita, Dalton and Knight. In any case, I was (and still am) glad that we re-signed Wesley back then even if it is now time for him to go. Hicks and Woods were much bigger mistakes.

htismaqe
06-05-2007, 10:39 AM
You are correct about Allen, Surtain and Johnson- they are better players than Wesley. The rest seem about equal, maybe worse in some cases. Wesley does have a lot of interceptions over his career and he was at one time a big hitter. He isn't great now but I think he had more impact on our team than Fujita, Dalton and Knight. In any case, I was (and still am) glad that we re-signed Wesley back then even if it is now time for him to go. Hicks and Woods were much bigger mistakes.

I guess people aren't watching the same games I am.

Because Wesley has been less than adequate for about 7 years.

At any rate, my point is proven.

We're arguing about whether or not he was the WORST player on our defense.

The original post was that he was "arguably the BEST player on our defense" and the discussion here has left no question that that statement is false.

bdeg
06-05-2007, 10:39 AM
"arguably"

Know what that word means?

IT COULD BE ARGUED that Wesley was CLOSER to "worst" than he was to "best" on that defense.
If you wanna get technical, I thought arguably the worst meant it could be argued that he was the worst. I don't know where this "closer to worst than best" nonsense is coming from. Middle of the pack is a long way from "arguably the worst."

htismaqe
06-05-2007, 10:42 AM
If you wanna get technical, I thought arguably the worst meant it could be argued that he was the worst. I don't know where this "closer to worst than best" nonsense is coming from. Middle of the pack is a long way from "arguably the worst."

Of those three Hicks was the only obvious stinker at that time. Wesley was arguably our best defensive player and Woods actually made the Pro Bowl around that time.

We've spent the better part of the morning arguing about whether or not Wesley was the WORST player on the defense, thus proving that the bolded quote above is incorrect.

el borracho
06-05-2007, 11:02 AM
What? Where did I say he was the worst? I don't agree with that at all. I conceded that 1 player was better than him in 2004 and 3 players were better than him in 2005. That does not mean he was the worst.

htismaqe
06-05-2007, 11:22 AM
What? Where did I say he was the worst? I don't agree with that at all. I conceded that 1 player was better than him in 2004 and 3 players were better than him in 2005. That does not mean he was the worst.

You said he was arguably the BEST.

I said he wasn't.

And we proceeded to argue about whether or not he was the WORST, proving my point.

Wile_E_Coyote
06-05-2007, 11:33 AM
He coached up Mitchell. Wanted Knight & no part of Hartwell. [edit] He had the choice between a injured Bell or Hartwell. In hindsight, it's hard to fault the choice IMO[edit]

His HC stint left alot of ? for fans. "What this team needs is more me" or close to that. goodnight

el borracho
06-05-2007, 11:46 AM
You said he was arguably the BEST.

I said he wasn't.

And we proceeded to argue about whether or not he was the WORST, proving my point.
Wow. Usually I understand your thinking even if I don't always agree. This time I am at a loss. We never argued about him being the worst. I don't think Wesley has ever been even remotely close to the worst player on our defense. IMO, he was one of the best players on our defense for a couple of years. 2nd to Allen does not make him the worst. 4th behind Allen, Surtain and Johnson does not make him the worst.

At any rate, I'm not sure any of this matters now. Wesley is likely gone to a backup role or gone completely from the roster.

ct
06-05-2007, 12:03 PM
We've spent the better part of the morning arguing about whether or not Wesley was the WORST player on the defense, thus proving that the bolded quote above is incorrect.

I could also state a claim that htismaqe is arguably the worst mod in the history of intranet BBs. If we spend a few moments arguing, whether or not my statements holds a friggin drop of water still confirms my claim. All it really proves is you knew how to push someones button to start an argument, thereby making your statement arguable.

go bowe
06-05-2007, 12:42 PM
dr. phil?

is that really you?

Kerberos
06-05-2007, 01:40 PM
I could also state a claim that htismaqe is arguably the worst mod in the history of intranet BBs. If we spend a few moments arguing, whether or not my statements holds a friggin drop of water still confirms my claim. All it really proves is you knew how to push someones button to start an argument, thereby making your statement arguable.


Brutal


dr. phil?

is that really you?

ROFL LMAO

htismaqe
06-05-2007, 01:55 PM
Wow. Usually I understand your thinking even if I don't always agree. This time I am at a loss. We never argued about him being the worst. I don't think Wesley has ever been even remotely close to the worst player on our defense. IMO, he was one of the best players on our defense for a couple of years. 2nd to Allen does not make him the worst. 4th behind Allen, Surtain and Johnson does not make him the worst.

At any rate, I'm not sure any of this matters now. Wesley is likely gone to a backup role or gone completely from the roster.

I see where the confusion has come from.

My initial post stated that Wesley could arguably be the worst player on the defense. Probably not a good thing to say on my part.

I should have just said that Wesley was never the best player on the defense, it's not arguable at all, and left it at that.

That was my only point.

Furthermore, it's just flat out sad that the Chiefs defense was SO bad that we're fighting about Greg Wesley. He's an 8-year veteran starter and still doesn't know how to cover a zone. Only in KC.

htismaqe
06-05-2007, 01:56 PM
I could also state a claim that htismaqe is arguably the worst mod in the history of intranet BBs. If we spend a few moments arguing, whether or not my statements holds a friggin drop of water still confirms my claim. All it really proves is you knew how to push someones button to start an argument, thereby making your statement arguable.

Nice try.

CupidStunt
06-05-2007, 02:02 PM
What a crock of shit. Stop moving the goal posts, htis. You said, non-plural, that Wesley was arguably our worst defensive player. Bottom line is that he was never even close to THE worst defensive player. There has always been a good one or two players that were INARGUABLY worse than him.

To go back to the guy you quoted, yes - he's correct; there's absolutely ZERO doubt that Hicks was a worse player than Wesley, therefore there is NO argument that Wesley was our worst defensive player.

htismaqe
06-05-2007, 02:03 PM
What a crock of shit. Stop moving the goal posts, htis. You said, non-plural, that Wesley was arguably our worst defensive player. Bottom line is that he was never even close to THE worst defensive player. There has always been a good one or two players that were INARGUABLY worse than him.

To go back to the guy you quoted, yes - he's correct; there's absolutely ZERO doubt that Hicks was a worse player than Wesley, therefore there is NO argument that Wesley was our worst defensive player.

I already conceded. Maybe you should learn to read before you post.

shaneo69
06-05-2007, 03:36 PM
I see where the confusion has come from.

My initial post stated that Wesley could arguably be the worst player on the defense. Probably not a good thing to say on my part.

I should have just said that Wesley was never the best player on the defense, it's not arguable at all, and left it at that.

That was my only point.

Furthermore, it's just flat out sad that the Chiefs defense was SO bad that we're fighting about Greg Wesley. He's an 8-year veteran starter and still doesn't know how to cover a zone. Only in KC.

Nice backtracking. :clap:

htismaqe
06-05-2007, 03:49 PM
Nice backtracking. :clap:

I made a mistake. I admitted it.

Characterize it however you want.