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AJKCFAN
04-20-2001, 07:02 PM
Green goes to the Chiefs for the 12th pick.

Details are sketchy, but it's on cbssportsline.com now

NaptownChief
04-20-2001, 07:05 PM
GAWD DAMN IT!!!!!!!!!

DenverChief
04-20-2001, 07:10 PM
WOOHOO!!!...did we really screw the Lambs?...We got him for only the frist rounder and we got a 5th back....YES!!!

keg in kc
04-20-2001, 07:12 PM
I'm happy with it.

Getting a starting QB you expect to be a pro bowler immediately is worth #12, IMHO, and we did still have all our picks in the 3rd/4th - 75, 77, 107 and 108.

I still haven't seen anything official regarding that 5th rounder by the way. 2 3rds, 4ths and 5ths wouldn't be too bad.

Won't be quite as much fun to watch the draft, though...

CanadaKC
04-20-2001, 07:13 PM
I knew desperation was going to kill us. No picks in the first two rounds. Hate to say it, but the Rams are the team sitting prettiest right now in the draft.

MrBlond
04-20-2001, 07:13 PM
jl80,

I am with you. Why not even wait until you see who is available at #12? I like Green, but we overpaid. If Dan Morgan or Duece McCallister sits there tomorrow @12, I may vomit.

NaptownChief
04-20-2001, 07:14 PM
Denver,

I wish I shared your enthusiasm...The way I see it is we got DV, Trent Green and a 5th...They got a 1st (the 12th overall), 2nd and a 3rd.....I feel like I have spent the night on all fours in a jail cell with Bubba...

DenverChief
04-20-2001, 07:15 PM
ESPNNews is reporting the trade was kc's #12 for Green and St louis's 5th

kcred
04-20-2001, 07:15 PM
SH!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!T. Oh well, he is the man as of now, and I am in back of him. But now the Brister deal looks even dumber, do we now not even draft a young QB in the mid rounds.

keg in kc
04-20-2001, 07:17 PM
How exactly did desperation kill us?

We got the QB that our HC and OC both openly wanted, and we got him at a significant discount from what the Rams asked.

Let's have a little reality here, we got our starting QB for the #12 pick and that's exactly what you want to do with that pick: get an immediate impact starter. There was no way we were going to get him for any less, so we need to cut our losses, grin at our luck, and wish the best for 2001.

You can't draft everyone at #12, a choice has to be made, and they went QB, for all intents and purposes.

If we'd paid 12 and 75 for this I'd be bitching too, but we didn't and we sure as hell didn't overpay.

NaptownChief
04-20-2001, 07:17 PM
Rams | More on Deal with Chiefs - posted at KFFL (http://nfl.kffl.com)
20:15 ET: As a follow up to previous reports, Jay Glazer, of the Pro Football News and Injury Report has informed KFFL that the St. Louis Rams have traded QB Trent Green, WR Tony Horne and their fifth-round draft pick to the Kansas City Chiefs for their first-round pick.

DenverChief
04-20-2001, 07:22 PM
JL80 I look at this way ; the other options we had were absolutly disgusting I mean c'mon Buerline?Dilfer?Brister?Cunningham?Collins?.....those guys are not options to start for the Chiefs I enjoy watching the Chiefs win ...Like it or not Vermiel was brought in to get us to the Super Bowl and to tutor Saunders to be his successor...this is good in the sense that Green will be here for at least 5 yrs and I'm sure in that time we will find our QBOTF and he would be the perfect mentor for a young guy...he!! who knows we might get our QBOTF in this years draft in the likes of Booty or Heupel ...But no matter what I will never boo Green and I hope no one else does:)

CanadaKC
04-20-2001, 07:23 PM
The addition of Horne and the fifth rounder really softens the blow. Good job Carl. Let's sign Dillon right now.

DenverChief
04-20-2001, 07:25 PM
KFFL is now reporting that Horne was now part of the deal with Green and we are now trying to sign Holmes to a deal

NaptownChief
04-20-2001, 07:27 PM
Getting Horne makes me feel slightly better...If we signed Dillon I would be happy but if you look at my other post we are going after a friggin career backup RB...

keg in kc
04-20-2001, 07:31 PM
Yeah, I'd say this was a good deal on Carl's part (ouch I hate to say that...). We filled the QB position, got a legitimate kick returner and maybe 3rd WR and have a 5th round pick that can be used to move upwards.

Today I was very, very frustrated because I was certain that we were going to pay 1st and 3rd for Green, and then this comes out. Like a lead weight being lifted off of me.

DenverChief
04-20-2001, 07:32 PM
How do you figure he is a carrer backup? If memory serves me correct before Baltimore drated J. Lewis Holmes was a 1000 yd rusher

keg in kc
04-20-2001, 07:35 PM
Geez, Denver, don't get him started on Holmes again...

;)

NaptownChief
04-20-2001, 07:35 PM
Originally posted by DenverChief
How do you figure he is a carrer backup? If memory serves me correct before Baltimore drated J. Lewis Holmes was a 1000 yd rusher

Cause he has never started and finished the same season as Baltimore's #1 RB...He was a spot starter that Baltimore ran out and replaced. He blew up twice in one season on the Bungles that allowed him to get to 1000 yards rushing...The Ravens didn't run out and spend a top draft pick on Lewis because Holmes was a quality starting RB...

DenverChief
04-20-2001, 07:36 PM
I would actually like to know what kind of good knocks people have on him:)

CanadaKC
04-20-2001, 07:37 PM
In retrospect, this deal was going to be done all along.
It was just a matter of time before the Rams realized they were asking way too much for him. Especially in light of the deal today which sent Vick to Atlanta. That deal really swung the pendulum in our favor, IMO. You can't give a 1st and a 3rd for Green after that. The Rams knew they were being arrogant, and it's a shame
that a lot of the media didn't play it that way.

DenverChief
04-20-2001, 07:38 PM
Originally posted by jl80


Cause he has never started and finished the same season as Baltimore's #1 RB...He was a spot starter that Baltimore ran out and replaced. He blew up twice in one season on the Bungles that allowed him to get to 1000 yards rushing...The Ravens didn't run out and spend a top draft pick on Lewis because Holmes was a quality starting RB... ....I thought you didn't like him?

NaptownChief
04-20-2001, 07:43 PM
Honestly, I like him as a backup...But the last thing we need is to overpay for a backup RB...We already have a stable full of back up RB's...I seen a couple interviews with Holmes and he is a really good guy, a single father that raises his son by himself etc.etc... Really appears to be a classy guy but we need a feature back...Not another band aid....

hawaiianboy
04-20-2001, 07:46 PM
Pretty good deal for the Rams in that they do the deal without giving up a 1st.... They give up their #2 QB, who with Germaine sitting there makes them feel better, their 4th WR and a late pick for #12...

3 1st Rders in this draft is gold...


Good deal for the Chiefs in they get VD's guy, keep their 3rd and get a return guy.... Plus no 1st RD bonus or old out this year....


Worked out pretty well for both sides... but I would love to have the Rams draft board personally...


Rams Lite 'tis!

kcred
04-20-2001, 07:46 PM
Throw in the other two caveats, and this deal looks great. I mean after all, Bubby Brister. Chiefs.com released a statement, obviously before Green, stating Bubby was backing up and tutoring Todd Collins, now where do we go? Do we even draft a QBOTF in the later rounds? Also not sure we might not package a couple 3s and 4s, for a second.

keg in kc
04-20-2001, 07:49 PM
Yeah, JQ, that Ram draft board is sure enviable.

I was surprised to see we still have 9 draft picks left...

too bad none are above 75.

Still, it looks like we're finally getting our starting QB, are in the process of signing our RB for 2001, or at least another challenger, and have upgraded our KR immediately if we can keep Horne away from the wacky weed. Not bad for one day...-

tommykat
04-20-2001, 07:51 PM
Go to the Red Zone.com.......we got the 5th too...:D
I'm a HAPPY CAMPER TONIGHT! YEEEEHAAA

tommykat
04-20-2001, 07:52 PM
By the way........I think l understand this right....Horne is a Ram not a CHIEF....:(

DenverChief
04-20-2001, 07:53 PM
agreed but I think he will shine I just looked at his stats for the last few years and
1998...223 rush...1008 yds...7 tds...43 rec...260 yds
1999...89 rushs....506 yds...1 td...13 rec...104 yds..1 td
2000...137 rushes....588 yds...2 tds...32 rec...221 yds
....not too shabby...better than any of our backs i would venture to say

keg in kc
04-20-2001, 07:53 PM
No, Horne is now a Chief, according to reports, he was part of the trade (#12 for Green, Horne and #150).

NaptownChief
04-20-2001, 07:54 PM
Had we signed Garner I would be very happy cause we would come away from the draft with a good QB and a feature back...But now we are going to scramble and try to put the band aid on the RB position by overpaying for Priest Holmes...I Dillon signing would greatly perk my spirits but that won't happen in a million years...

DenverChief
04-20-2001, 07:56 PM
tommykat I haven't seen anything on ESPNews about Horne but KFFL is reporting he was part of the deal

keg in kc
04-20-2001, 07:57 PM
As I recall DV was fairly adamant about us having no interest in either Garner or Dillon. Reason? I dunno...

NaptownChief
04-20-2001, 08:00 PM
JQ said that Chris FuamatuMuthaFugger told him that the Chiefs had spoke to his agent with some interest but didn't follow through because they were working with Garners agent...

DenverChief
04-20-2001, 08:02 PM
three words kyle....Locker room cancers

tommykat
04-20-2001, 08:19 PM
DenverChief.....
I just saw that and that the Chiefs are trying to work a deal for Holmes now...:D
What a night.......and the games aren't even starting till morning. Ha, Chiefs are doing what they do best...SNEAKING UP ON YOU...:)

hawaiianboy
04-20-2001, 08:31 PM
Kyle...

Hate to tell you guys this but I checked out some other forums and KC is getting absolutley flamed for this deal... Most people think you got the wham, bam thank you mam job from the Rams....

Check out the draft forum at kff.... they are calling the tandom of Carl and DV "Bungal like".. Ouch!

tommykat
04-20-2001, 08:40 PM
hawaiianboy....
You know that all kinds of things are going to be said.
Who cares? They are saying the same things about other teams tradings as well.
I say.....CHIEFS RULE AND WILL KICK BUTT:D

Mosbonian
04-20-2001, 08:40 PM
This absolutely sucks sewer water!!!!!!!!!!!!

Once again we mortgage our future without so much as an iota of intelligence to our plan.

Carl and DV were so hot after Trent Green that they couldn't see the future...and worse than that we signed Bubby Brister as a back-up!!!!

Carl and Vermeil acted like the two horniest 16 y/o boys in town chasing the easiest girl in school...

mmaddog
***************

Mosbonian
04-20-2001, 08:42 PM
Sorry Tommykat......

But i disagree about this move.

This one rates up there with the Chiefs choice of Todd Blackledge before all the other soon to be All Pro's in 1984.

mmaddog
************

tommykat
04-20-2001, 08:46 PM
Hey M&M......
Did you have to play on the other place to much today?
No arrows in the rear? LOL.....No one will know about any of this till the season starts. But I will buy a GREEN tee shirt :D.....something I wouldn't do with Elvis. The only ones I own are Tony G.s

CanadaKC
04-20-2001, 08:46 PM
Hawaiin...I read the KFFL BB too. OUCH! Hate to say it, but I agree with them. The whole "Vermeil will only be here for a short time so we have to win now thing"...
could be a recipe for disaster. My major concern, and it has to be for all Chief fans, is how Gonzalez responds in the upcoming season. If I sense he's disappointed, and wants no part of this new regime, we can kiss him goodbye in 2002. The other players will pick up on his energy as well. I do believe Vermeil will do his best to generate a positive attitude and get the most out of his team, but he better be on the numbers with what he wants to accomplish here, both short-term and long-term.

DenverChief
04-20-2001, 08:47 PM
morgaged our future? NOT!....if it did any thing it gave us someone to help build our future in Green...I bet $100 that we Draft a QBOTF in the third round (Joe Montana was a third rounder) and Brister is here to BACKUP Collins

HC_Chief
04-20-2001, 08:48 PM
Wow - I am really surprised at all the negativity here! We got Green - a starting QB familiar with this system, for LESS than market value (1+3) and we also obtained an extra 5th round pick in the deal! That is outstanding.

The fact that the lambs decided NOT to match our offer to Horne makes this night all that much sweeter... now we have a starting QB, 2 backup QBs, and a return threat unlike we've seen since Vanover '97.

This is fantastic IMO! :D

DenverChief
04-20-2001, 08:51 PM
Right on HC Chief I'm glad to see another Green supporter:)

Mosbonian
04-20-2001, 08:55 PM
Denver Chief:

Let me ask you this:

What do you think we got (will get)out of this draft?

We don't have a pick in the first 2 rounds and we got a 31 y/o gimpy knee'd QB that will last all of one game when a shot at his knee will take him down for the season. Then what are we stuck with? The same Bubby Brister that we all laughed about last year when the Broncs were pinning their hopes on him.

We missed the chance to draft a good D-line stud or if we were lucky, pick up a RB if something odd happened.

Sorry if I don't share your optimism about this trade...

mmaddog
*************

CanadaKC
04-20-2001, 08:59 PM
Bets case scenario: Green is the second coming of Joe Montana, it just took Vermeil and KC to let it be known.
And since the ladies on the other BB seem absolutely thrilled with the Green deal, the babe factor at Arrowhead dramatically improves. Win Superbowl.

Worse case scenario: Green is the second coming of Ron Duguay (ex-New York Ranger). Translation: brings in the ladies, can't play worth crap. Knee gives out in
week three. Bubby to the rescue. Gonzo can't wait to sign elsewhere.

Zebedee DuBois
04-20-2001, 09:58 PM
Wow, I just checked in on this board and learned the news. Green & Holmes. Whew.
Dang, I wanted to see what was there for the 12th, but all things considered... if we had to make the trade, I think we did pretty well to get the 5th rounder and Horne.

I hope they suprise us (in a good way) next fall.

Zebedee DuBois
04-20-2001, 10:00 PM
I have no idea who we want in the 3rd round.
What do the more draft-savvy think?

Gary
04-20-2001, 10:02 PM
Hey guys...I'm just a Chief's fan...FOR BETTER OR FOR WORSE. So, I for one am just going to sit back & let things unfold for themselves. I agree with HCchief. WAY TOO MUCH NEGATIVITY! Everyone's life in here will still go on even if KC traded all their picks to Cleveland for the right to talk to Ty Detmer. Let's stop all the "Raw Raw" crap & just be Chief's fans!

Zebedee DuBois
04-20-2001, 10:07 PM
You are right, Gary.
It wasn't like we were going to address all our needs with that one pick. "With the 12th pick, the Chiefs pick the Vick/McAllister/Defensive Stud for Gaz Combo platter." (that woulda been kinda cool though)

Go Chiefs.

JOhn
04-20-2001, 10:09 PM
Originally posted by Zebedee DuBois
Defensive Stud for Gaz Combo platter


LOL that is a good one...hehe :D

DenverChief
04-20-2001, 10:09 PM
Mark, Please understand if we would have kept our pick we would have had Brister or Dilfer or Buerline as our starting QB's do I really have to spell it out for you? Green was our best option we had precious little cap space to be able to get all of our draft picks signed if we kept our #1 (how much you think Tomlinson or Mcallister would have wanted?) and we wouldn't have a good QB Buerline is more injured than Green ...Dilfer is weak armed...Collins I know just could not be our starter YET...Greens current contract is very Cap friendly...if we would have drafted Brees at #12 he would have wanted a deal compable to what Vick is going to get...i don't see how you can be angry about this it is obvious to me the Chiefs made the Best deals possible

tommykat
04-20-2001, 10:10 PM
CANADAKC....
What ever you do, don't come over here bashing the women! I'm on here quit a bit and the other. So don't start anything. We all get along well here. Besides being a lady, I know my football too, and am trying to increase my knowledge. Enough said....:)

Zebedee DuBois
04-20-2001, 10:16 PM
I think the offense is pretty set now. Maybe pick up another WR and OL. But most of the remaining picks should be on defense. The DL & secondary could use some bolstering.

bkkcoh
04-20-2001, 10:31 PM
I am not too concerned with the way the offense was set up in St. Louis, they didn't have a tight-end that could line up as a wide receiver. They would have been creamin' their uni's to have an athletic specimen like Tony G. Look to A l S. to have quite a few tight-end wrinkles in place for Tony G. He would be absolutely crazy not too. how potent is our offense going to be this up coming season??? Quite potent I believe. But we will see how the season unfolds.

I look to for the Chiefs to draft additional defensive help and receiver depth to give the 4th and 5th receivers on our roster to challenge them for the roster spots.

donkhater
04-20-2001, 10:38 PM
I wouldn't mind seeing the Chiefs use that 5th rounder we got from the Rams for Bill Grammatica.

Grammatica, Strazynski (sp?), Horne and NO Stock? Yeah, our Special teams would be WAY better.

milkman
04-20-2001, 10:39 PM
Originally posted by CanadaKC
The whole "Vermeil will only be here for a short time so we have to win now thing"...
could be a recipe for disaster.

This is one of the reasons that I have been so outspoken in my criticism of hiring VD (I like that nickname for him, jq, thanks).
My thoughts on this deal for Green mirrors jl80 and mmaddog. Nap thoughts on Holmes also represent my feelings.
I heard about the SD/Atlanta trade and the "Bono" Brister signing on my way home from work and was interested in everyone's thoughts. So I got on the board to read about them. Imagine my surprise and dismay when I see this posted. I haven't even read about Holmes yet.
I'm not happy about any of this!

bishop_74
04-20-2001, 10:42 PM
Well, I for one have waited 10 years, that 7 years too long, and if he can do it, which I have faith in the man, then I think it is worth it.

sun
04-20-2001, 10:43 PM
top 10 reasons we had to make the green trade:
10. the ladies like him
9. al wanted him
8. al really wanted him
7. al really really wanted him
6. looks cool in red
5. al really really really wanted him
4. dick wanted him
3. dick really wanted him
2. dick really really wanted him
1. Tony Gonzales ( the real only reason) , put your self in tg's shoes: im a real live offensive game breaker, the best tight end in football, in my prime and the chiefs want to jerk me around with bubby or trent dilfer or steve b. or even worse a rookie????.......i got three words for ya: I'M OUTTA HERE!!!!..........this move keeps tg in kc for years to come

on priest holmes: i have watched him a lot ( have a friend who plays for baltimore)......he is a good runner, reciever, blocker.......not great but very good......what i like the most about him is he is tough....very tough.....will challenge any tackler.....not afraid to go inside......always delivers the blow instead of taking it....if we get him, most of us will reallly like him

c13zephyr
04-20-2001, 10:45 PM
I bet by the end of the season anyone who doubts what is going on, will doubt no longer. 5 years from now we might be back in the hole. However I believe we'll also have something to be proud about other than Len Dawson and his buddies.

donkhater
04-20-2001, 10:47 PM
I feel better about this deal since we signed Priest Holmes. This kid is better than most think. I had Jamal Lewis last season on my fantasy football team and while watching some Baltimore games, I frequently confused the two of them. I fact I felt Holmes was much quicker and a better receiver. Lewis was powerful and had good straight line speed.

A healthy Green and Holmes or Dilfer and McCallister (maybe). Definately the former. A gimpy Green? He'd better not be.

sun
04-20-2001, 11:01 PM
and btw........there seems to be alot of comments about trent green being gimpy, damaged goods, etc......personally, i will be less worried about him than elvis girlbac.......how many of us will miss girlbac's girly act every time he got touched????.......what a total pu$$y!!!!!........i would have done this before march first and released girlbac .....but then again, that probally why im not a gm

Logical
04-20-2001, 11:05 PM
I also want to staunch the negativity.

JL80
You had an error in an earlier post, the Chiefs did not give the Rams a third (this was way early so perhaps you had just assumed).

As far as Priest Holmes he did not fit the offense that Baltimore was running so he was not going to be their starter but he had excellent receiving stats with Baltimore and did a good job when they did run him. His style is almost identical to that of Marshall Faulk (Please note he definitely does not have Marshall's talent level) and will fit welll into the AirSaunders style offense that will be installed.

To everyone,
Someone has said that Green injured his knee again in 2000, that is untrue, he played all 5 games plus completing the Chiefs game and the game where Warner had a concussion towards the end of the season without injury. He had offseason knee surgery to clean out debris from the first surgery, a common practice and it is expected to improve his mobility almost to where it was before he was hurt the first time. I am not a huge Green fan but I will support him completely and I do think he was the best choice for the Chiefs this offseason of what was available with Beurlein being second. Brad Johnson did not fit this offense, Flutie has no arm strength, Dilfer makes slow reads, and the others are not worth talking about. Hasselback was never an option for this offense and is even less game proven.

Mark,
Dude why mortgage the future, Green has at least 5 to 8 years left. Second with the Chiefs o-lines pass blocking ability Green probably will be sacked less than 25 times this season, besides he makes quick reads but does have a tendency to hold on to the ball to long when coverage is good. Quick reads is the most important aspect of this offense.

We were not going to get a great offensive player in the first and DV was not interested in Defense in the first so we would likely have picked a stretch player that was not going to work out (i.e. Bennett or Brees), so big loss for us (not).

DT is the only strength position that would have likely been left as a Chiefs need at 12, the Chiefs are going to play DT by commitee so why waste a #12 on a DT when we were not going to really fully utilize him.

Morgan would have been great, I will admit it and would have loved to have him, but he probably would have been snatched up before our pick. Fletcher will be gone at CB and Smoot is falling and even though considered the second best CB in a not very outstanding class for CBs is now projected to fall to the second half of the 1st round.

We will never know if we could have traded down, so filling three slots prior to the draft is following the bird in the hand is better than three in the bush axiom.

Again to everyone:
We have two thirds, two fourths, two fifths, it is still possible we will give up a single pick in each for a second. The game is not over lets not panic, the season has a lot of potential and so does the remainder of this draft.

Mosbonian
04-20-2001, 11:39 PM
DenverChief:

Being a Chiefs fan first and foremost since their inception, and being an avid football nut as long as I can remember, I doubt very seriously that you have to spell ANYTHING out for me.

We are taking a VERY big chance with Green, a guy who is 31 years old and is coming off of a knee injury. The cost for him was WAY too high. Having signed Beurlein for a 2 year deal, drafting a McMahon, T-sosopo, or even Rosenfeld as a latter round pick and let them learn under Beurlein would have been wiser. We could still have signed Holmes(was it ever in doubt), traded up with several teams to get a defensive stud we need badly and come out even better than everyone thinks we are now.

You may want to celebrate and shine the trophy case expecting that Western Division crown to be set there, but I look around the division and see the Chiefs as the team who has done the least in valuable team movements in the off-season.

mmaddog
*************

Mosbonian
04-20-2001, 11:43 PM
Logical:


I just see Green as less enticing as everyone else.

You can actually build a team through draft picks, we just have never tried.

mmaddog
*********

morphius
04-21-2001, 12:17 AM
Well, the orginization got everyone they wanted, now it is time to put up.

Logical
04-21-2001, 12:17 AM
Mark,

Just so you know, I actually agree on buiding through the draft to an extent. The problem today is that so many players move on just as they mature into a good or great player. It really makes it hard to build solely through the draft.

The Chiefs had too many holes at the skill positions and the #12 was just not high enough to get Deuce or LaDamien especially after the Charger trade. Brees is not a QBOTF with this offense which will I believe be a derivative of AirCoryell (AirSaunders) and Michael Bennett as I said elsewhere could not catch his own pud with either hand if it was swinging, so he would not fit either. We needed those positions filled this season and lets face it we can still get a better QB for this offense in the 3rd or 4th round this year than we would have got with Brees. Tui or Weinke or maybe even McMahon are better suited to the projected offense.

No offense, I am not a big Green fan either but I really believe he was our best option under the conditions for which the trade was made. If we had been required to give up any other pick along with the #1 I would be btching and moaning with you, but instead we got an additional pick as well as freed up Horne to be signed. Remember Horne is the best KR in the league (IMO) and will probably be a good third or fourth receiver for our three and four receiver sets.

Pitt Gorilla
04-21-2001, 12:30 AM
LMAO, logical, about the pud thing. I totally agree with your take. McMahon or Tui would be well suited to this offense, as are Horne and Holmes. Cloud might also be someone to watch. I had been to the point of praying that we wouldn't draft Bennett that high. The guy played ONE year. Now, if Deuce is available with the #12, I may not be so understanding. However, not only did we NOT give up the third, but we gained a fifth and Horne. Good trade.

milkman
04-21-2001, 12:38 AM
I firmly believe that you build the core of your team with the draft. When you reach the point that you're just a couple of players away, then you target key FA, or trades. The Chiefs are building this team BackAssWards.

CanadaKC
04-21-2001, 12:49 AM
Tommycat...just poking fun at an observation, that's all.
Meant no disrespect. But sometimes, be warned, hot-blooded hard-core football fans frequently suffer from verbal diarrhea, and adamantly oppose political correctness.

BTW -- Which team do you think has the best cheerleaders?

Gaz
04-21-2001, 08:10 AM
My complaints with Green were the price and my concerns about his knee.

The price went from a 1st & 3rd for Green to a 1st for Green, Horne and a 5th.
Acceptable. Good job, Carl.

His knee still troubles me, but I guess I have to put my faith in the Chiefs staff and the doctors.
Acceptable, but franky worrisome.

Saunders has the Offense he wants. Now it is time to give Robinson some tools. You Offense Homers might as well go camping this weekend, because the draft now belongs to us neglected Defense Homers.

Let the DTs and LBs fall like the gentle rain from heaven upon the place beneath...

xoxo~
Gaz
Born-again Green supporter.

shakesthecat
04-21-2001, 08:26 AM
Logical,
Thanks for saving me a lot of typing!

I like the deal. I feel a hell of a lot better about this team now, than I did at the end of last year.
The Coaching Staff, Offense, and ST have all received big upgrades.
I'd like to think the D gets the attention today.

kcred
04-21-2001, 08:37 AM
I was vehemently opposed to the Green deal when first prospered. A first and a third, now way, but the way it turned out, I can live with. It is getting harder and harder, to build thru the draft, and all the so called "experts" do not think the QBOTF is there to be found this year. For all those reasons, this was a good deal. If Morgan falls past #12, I will hate it, but even though Morgan may be the next Derrick Thomas, I don't see him as valuable, as building the offense. Green is here for two years, if his knee is healthy, and our O line gives him the protection he needs, we can look at the draft next year for our SB run.

WisChief
04-21-2001, 09:00 AM
Well, well, well........

I try to get on here periodically thru the day yesterday and
the board is down - WTF????

Then I'm laying on the couch this morning scratching my arss
and see on the ESPN ticker that all this happened.
HOLY MACARONI BATMAN!!!!!!!!!

Get on here and WOW - mixed reaction to say the least.

Add me to the mix........ I am on record previously of wanting
to keep our first and throw Collins' sorry arss in there and draft
a QB and if Collins flops - throw in the rookie. I must ask again,
what/who in the hell did Green do to warrant this much attention????

But, since VD (I too like that one and will steal it - spank you very
much :D ) has won a SB - I'll support this with all my being.

I do like the Holmes deal though - put TR back to FB where he
belongs and let Holmes, Cloud and FM battle it out IN CAMP
(not during the season) and let that winner be our premier,
full time, ball hoggin, gosh danged runn'n back!!!!!!!!!!

cdcox
04-21-2001, 09:15 AM
I'm happy with the way things worked out yesterday. I thought a lot about putting Dilfer or Brueline under center for a year or two and drafting a project in round 3. Or waiting till next year for a blue chip prospect. But even after the new guy became the starter (in a year or two), it would take at least a season for assembled components to gel. This moves up the timetable on the offence by at least 2 years, if everything works out. Now with most of the components of the offence in place (I still think we need to find a major talent at RB), we can turn our attention to D. Defenses usually take a little less time to gel than the offence, so I thing Carl and DV are doing things in the right order. Their situation after losing Grbac was very difficult. I think they have done their best at putting us in a position to be in the playoff hunt this season, with the possibility for rapid improvement. I'm not sure if it will all work out, but I didn't see a better option.

The other thing that makes me like this trade is that I didn't like the way things were shaking out for the #12 pick. No way will McAllister be available at 12 after the SD-Atlanta trade. Dan Morgan is probably the only player who could drop to 12 that would give me second thoughts, but I doubt we would have picked him any way. Michael Bennett or a WR would not get me excited at all.

NaptownChief
04-21-2001, 09:27 AM
Originally posted by Logical

Green has at least 5 to 8 years left.



Jim,

I hope you are right about that but he will be 31 in a couple months...On the high side of your range would put him at 39....That is not a realistic exception IMO...Warren Moon kinda messed up everyone's realistic expectations cause he was such a physical freak of nature to hold together so well until he was 40...

I love the fact that Green will be our QB...He was the best man for the job. I got to briefly know him when he was at IU and followed his every footstep from SD to Wash to St Louis...But it still comes down to price....If he makes it to training camp 100% healthy then we made out pretty well...But the knee has been bothering him ever since the injury....As I mentioned before, he has to ride an exercise bike for extensive amounts of time before he can practice or play. That is not close to being normal. The 12th pick in the draft for someone who may never fully gain his health is a huge price and a HUGE risk....Granted knee repair has come along way, but it was not that long ago when guys had to retire immediately with this type of injury...

I want Green to work out as much as anyone, but trading for players is just like in my line of work, trading for stocks...Anything can happen, but the risk/reward have to be in balance with the price....I feel like we just bought a couple million shares of Trent Green at about a 50% premium over book value...

Zebedee DuBois
04-21-2001, 09:49 AM
Well at least we will have our top two picks signed and at camp in River Falls. That is a delightful improvement over the past few years of watching Carl vs. the Agents.

Warrior5
04-21-2001, 09:54 AM
that CP and DV, through very creative packaging, can't deal some of the plethora of late round picks for a FIRST round pick today?
I know, I know, more wishful thinking...but since my Morgan hopes have been dashed on the banks of the Mississippi River, I want some good Defense!

kcred
04-21-2001, 09:58 AM
One ancillary bonus in the deal, NO EXCUSES, Vermeil has taken the load on his shoulders and got what he wanted. Now, there will be no moaning about not getting Green, or we should have drafted offense, or defense, vice versa. This is squarely on DV now, and I admire him taking the bull by the horns, so to speak. He may not take us all the way this year, but if we just head in the right direction, a SB might be in the picture in the near future.

Frazod
04-21-2001, 10:09 AM
Yikes! I awoke to the news "Trent Green trade to Chiefs for No. 1 pick" on the radio (was playing computer games until the wee hours and missed everything last night). My initial reaction - I SCREAMED "NOOOOOOOOO!!!!" But when I found out we didn't get hosed as bad as I thought we would and picked up Holmes, I felt better. IF, and I stress, IF, this guy's knee holds up, I guess I'm okay with it.

IF HIS KNEE GOES OUT IN THE SECOND WEEK I HOPE SOMEONE HITS PETERSON IN THE FACE WITH AN FRIGGIN ALUMINIUM BASEBALL BAT!!!!!!

Still hate the idea of giving those c#cksucking whores in St. Louis our first round pick. That I will never feel good about.

I guess this is the point where I should become optimistic. To paraphase Monty Python, "and there was much rejoicing...... yay."

Luzap
04-21-2001, 10:15 AM
Think about it.

We offered a contract to Horne that wasn't that much higher than what the Rams offered ~ the Rams wait until Thursday to SAY they will match.

We gave the Rams a way to throw more into the deal without really costing them anything. Carl has a way to get more out of the deal on something we would have done anyway.

Luz
not criticizing, i think it's professionalism at its best...

Frazod
04-21-2001, 10:22 AM
The best thing about this - I have to go to a funeral shortly, and now I won't be sitting there going nuts wondering who we'll take in the first round.

Still can't come to grips with losing our first round pick. Very, very tough to swallow that one.

This guy better stay healty.....

HC_Chief
04-21-2001, 10:29 AM
<i>You Offense Homers might as well go camping this weekend, because the draft now belongs to us neglected Defense Homers. </i>

Now you know how we felt throughout the whole of the 90s! ;)

You guys should look at it this way:

1st round(#12 overall): QB, Trent Green (has 24more NFL games' experience than any other QB in this draft)

2nd round: RB, Priest Holmes - a one-time 1000+ yd rusher... something KC has not had since Cristian Okoye (last Century)

3rd-7th: A WR, and a boat-load of defensive players

IMO, this draft is shaping up nicely for us!

AJKCFAN
04-21-2001, 10:31 AM
Pat:

Saw Kiper's 3 round mock draft... Travis Henry NOWHERE to be found!!!

Still pining for Henry to be in Chiefs Red this year?

If so... that makes two of us :)

htismaqe
04-21-2001, 10:33 AM
This isn't a bad trade. Trading straight up for Green would have been one thing, but we got a 5th rounder and Horne, as well as Green, and got to keep our 2 3rd rounders.

I agree with HC, we've been waiting for offense for so long that anything is sweet at this point. I wasn't happy at first, but now I'm excited.

If we do go all defense in the draft (we won't) you defense homers live it up.

Don't be surprised if we take another WR in the 3rd or 4th round...

HC_Chief
04-21-2001, 10:41 AM
AJ - if we nabbed Henry in the 3rd or 4th, I think I'd pass-out! :D Though I seriously doubt we'll even consider a RB now.

I'd like to see us take that fast kid from Iowa(WR) and then shore up the D. The gaping O holes have been adequately filled IMO :)

htismaqe
04-21-2001, 10:43 AM
HC,

I'm not sure Kasper (the kid from Iowa) will last that long. I saw every Iowa game over the last 2 years and he's beyond good. He's also not a good fit in the slot, he's more of a #2 possession receiver...

HC_Chief
04-21-2001, 10:44 AM
We could always move Morris into the slot (where teams usually place their weaker WRs)

htismaqe
04-21-2001, 10:45 AM
Morris is so big, and not exceptionally fast. Hmmm...I'll have to think about that one.

If Kasper fell to us, he'd be a hell of steal, though...

AJKCFAN
04-21-2001, 10:47 AM
HC:

If Henry is a Chief, we need to celebrate at the Foundation meeting coming up in September over a nice, cold one of the suds.

Make that three if Henry is a 3rd round pick, 4 if Henry is a 4th round pick...


Why not draft Henry? What do the Chiefs do if Holmes went down with an injury?

Moreau, Cloud, Richardson switching to HB, or Tavis Henry?

Go with # 20 in that tangerine jersey is who I'd choose.

I'm Vice-President of the Henry bandwagon, you know...

DenverChief
04-21-2001, 11:52 AM
Mark, C'mon you are worried about Trent being gimpy..and you wanted to sign Buerline? I mean that guy had more surgurys than Montana...speaking of Montana nobody was upset about that trade and Montana was one big booboo...and Grbac that guy got hurt if someone spit on him and he managed to make it a whole season last year...I think our O-line is very capable of taking care of Green as well as Richardson and Holmes...I honestly don't see your point, we can still draft a young QB in the later rounds like you suggested (Morgan,Huepel,Booty,Weinke) and I think we wouldn't have to worry about sacrificing this season when a Bureline goes down or a Dilfer becomes ineffective

NaptownChief
04-21-2001, 11:58 AM
Originally posted by DenverChief
Mark, C'mon you are worried about Trent being gimpy..and you wanted to sign Buerline?


Denver,

I understand the point you are making but the one major thing you are overlooking in that comment is that Burrrrline doesn't cost the #12 pick in the draft....Big difference...

milkman
04-21-2001, 11:59 AM
Just to set the record straight, I was upset when the Chiefs traded for Montana, and still maintain that it was a poor decision by the Chiefs.

DenverChief
04-21-2001, 12:05 PM
Sure JL I agree but it is a give and take situation...it is either the #12 for Green who is for all intents and purposes healthy or Bureline who probably wouldn't be able to go until the END of training camp and even then thats streching it and then you have to worry about he next hit on him not only does he have a bad knee but an elbow and shoulder thats too many problem areas...Green Just the knee....Do you see what I'm getting at? I'm not trying to be a dick but I think any other QB would have been a disaster for KC to pick up because if Bureline goes down who do we put in? Brees if we were lucky enuf to get him probably not though then it's all up in the air Brister?Collins?Weinke? I seriously doubt the

DenverChief
04-21-2001, 12:08 PM
Milkman why??? the man took us with in one game of the promised land and I guarantee that if that had been a game at Arrowhead we would have got to the Superbowl and beat the Cowgirls

NaptownChief
04-21-2001, 12:14 PM
Trading 1st round picks for any player on the top side of 30 years of age rarely pays off....

1st round picks are major contributors about 54%...So just a little over half...But that means they will be major contributors for about 6-9 years....

The success of experienced players switching teams isn't much better than 50% either...ie Dana Stubblefield, Bert Emanual, Larry Brown, Big Fat Chet etc. etc...


Most players run out of gas at about age 30-31 in general...QB's have a little longer shelf life to about 34-35....

So in reality you are taking about a 50/50 shot on a 1st round player or an experienced player switching teams...Yet if you hit on the draft pick you generally get an extra 3-5 years of top of the line production...


So IMO it is typically not a wise move to trade a 1st rounder, especially a high 1st rounder for an established player....But this situation is a little unique from the standpoint that Green won't be learning a new system so that removes a lot of risk....Just hope the knee doesn't blow up in CP and VD's face.

NaptownChief
04-21-2001, 12:16 PM
Denver,

I agree that all the other QB scenarios would probably been a disaster...But if Green's knee doesn't come around we will be living the same disaster without any 1st round talent to help pick up the slack...

milkman
04-21-2001, 12:17 PM
Montana was a short term solution (2 years) to what has been a long term problem.
I wanted the Chiefs to sign Buerlein in FA that year. He would have been a long term solution, then, and would have given the Chiefs more opportunities to advance in playoffs throughout the 90s.
This doesn't even take into account the added bonus of never having to go through the Grbac/Gannon debates, and the moisture dripping posts that the Spinster on TOBB writes.

AJKCFAN
04-21-2001, 12:39 PM
Just one problem with that theory.

Montana/Bono/Grbac took the Chiefs to the playoffs 4 of the next 5 years, with the lone year they didn't make the playoffs being a 9-7 year.

Signing Beuerlein at that time was no guarantee to get those results and in fact, had they not made the playoffs as often, we would've dumped Beuerlein after 1997.

So not much of a difference.

What happened was simple. Chiefs offense was sputtering under Dave Kreig. They needed someone to get the offense going. Joe Montana was available. The Chiefs had to get them. And they did.

Enthusiastic about the Montana trade then and still support the Montana trade now...

milkman
04-21-2001, 12:46 PM
Buelein was young, smart, poised QB with leadership qualities. There was no question in my mind then that he was the best option at that time.
Bono/Grbac led us nowhere. Our defense took us to the playoffs in those seasons.
I'll never be convinced that taking a QB on his last legs is a better option than taking a young QB with upside.

NaptownChief
04-21-2001, 12:51 PM
Plus we only got two years out of Montana and no titles...If you only get two years out of a 1st round pick then it is considered a bust...hands down.

milkman
04-21-2001, 12:54 PM
Exactly my point. Short term solution.

DenverChief
04-21-2001, 01:00 PM
Fred Smoot is still on the Board!...you think we could make a move to the high second to try and get him if he falls that far?...yea I know Montana brought no NFL titles but we came close real close and I think Green can finish what Montana started...Look at the Receivers we have now compared to what we had the year we went to the AFC champ game Birdin,Davis,Horn,Cash,Allen VS Alexander,Morris,Horne,Gonzalez,Holmes...I would take lineup #2 anyday...Montana made that team what it was he was a leader...and now we have another leader in Green and we have way more talented receivers

milkman
04-21-2001, 01:02 PM
These are some of the things that CP has done that will remain as his legacy.
Drafted DT and Gonzo
Given away a first round draft choice for a 2 year QB solution.
Given away a 2nd round draft choice for a HC that will last, most likely, for 3 years.
And a first round choice for a QB that really comes with a lot of questions.
Spotty record, if you ask me.

Mosbonian
04-21-2001, 02:14 PM
DenverChief:

Beurlein, even though he is older than Green, in my mind is in better shape than Green.(I live here in Charlotte, so I hear more about Beurlein than most)

Plus, as someone else pointed out, he comes at a cheaper price, with proven leadership skills, and an ability to play past injuries. Green is NOT going to make the difference between playoffs and being home in January. Beurlein, Holmes and our 1st round defensive pick we could be closer.

When Green goes down earlier in the year, or doesn't live up to the expectations that everyone has placed on his shoulders, I can't wait to see the excuses fly.

mmaddog
*************

DenverChief
04-21-2001, 08:27 PM
Then you must know he just had three surgurys? Shoulder,Elbow and Knee?

Mosbonian
04-21-2001, 10:04 PM
D C:

Actually if you go back then you know he has had more than that in the way of injuries...

But you are still missing my point!!!!!!!

THE ASKING PRICE WAS TOO HIGH FOR AN UNPROVEN QB!!!!

Doesn't it scare you that we are only one bad slip, one crushing tackle, or one odd bend of the knee away from Bubby Brister leading this team? Or that we had a greater need for a D-lineman? Or that, if you really look at it, Green is nothing more that a 2 year patch himself?

We needed to use that draft pick to get a lower 1st round pick and pick up a second rounder...


mmaddog
**************

WisChief
04-21-2001, 10:15 PM
Originally posted by Mark Kilgore
D C:


Doesn't it scare you that we are only one bad slip, one crushing tackle, or one odd bend of the knee away from Bubby Brister leading this team?


**************

Mark,

I agree with your thoughts - I am not sold on Green either, but the situation you state above is clearly the situation with most NFL teams today. There are only so many Kurt Warners and Aaron Brooks, guys that step in and continue to win. Hell, even Brister did do okay when Griesmonkey went down.

Dammit - VD and his hoard of know-it-all's better take us to the playoff this freak'n year..... :D

Mosbonian
04-21-2001, 10:28 PM
WisChief:

You are absolutely right...But you realize we could have had Beurlein, Collins, and maybe a good QB like McMahon to groom for the future and still drafted a defensive stud...

mmaddog
*************