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View Full Version : Reid calls illegals "undocumented Americans"


Cochise
06-15-2007, 08:41 AM
http://michellemalkin.com/archives/007673.htm

This week we will vote on cloture and final passage of a comprehensive bill that will strengthen border security, bring the 12 million undocumented Americans out of the shadows, and keep our economy strong.


Is this not the most ridiculous thing you've heard... well, recently, coming out of Washington? :spock:

In a related story:

Maybe this is why Rasmussen has Reid's favorable rating at just 19% (which is tied with Scooter Libby, by the way)

http://www.rasmussenreports.com/public_content/politics/harry_reid_s_favorables_fall_to_19

jAZ
06-15-2007, 08:56 AM
Is this not the most ridiculous thing you've heard... well, recently, coming out of Washington? :spock:
Yeah, I don't care what you feel about the issue... they aren't Americans (yet?) and the politics of that choice of words seems horrendous.

Cochise
06-15-2007, 09:39 AM
Well, it's the same guy who is calling uniformed military officers incompetent behind closed doors.

jAZ
06-15-2007, 09:45 AM
Well, it's the same guy who is calling uniformed military officers incompetent behind closed doors.
Apparently he said it to the guy's face.

jAZ
06-15-2007, 09:48 AM
Here's the transcript of this conference call...

http://electioncentral.tpmcafe.com/blog/electioncentral/2007/jun/14/obtained_a_tape_of_reids_conference_call_with_bloggers_reid_did_blast_pace

BLOGGER QUESTION: What's the next step on Gonzales?

REID: Well, I guess the President, he's gotten rid of Pace because he could not get confirmed here in the Senate. Pace is also a yes-man for the President. I told him to his face, I laid it out last time he came in to see me. I told him what an incompetent man I thought he was. But he got rid of his Joint Chiefs of Staff chair, but he still hangs on to this failed Attorney General. And I guess he's gonna [inaudible]. We're gonna keep focusing on it. Every day that goes by, it seems he keeps giving. Now we've learned that the immigration judges are all graduates of Regent University I guess.

Cochise
06-15-2007, 09:53 AM
Well then, do you think it's a good idea for him to call uniformed military personnel incompetent?

Combine that with his trumpeting of the amnesty bill, and he's working pretty hard to keep his numbers in the tank

jAZ
06-15-2007, 10:02 AM
Well then, do you think it's a good idea for him to call uniformed military personnel incompetent?
Hell yes it's ok.

He better not do it if he doesn't mean it. But hell yes it's ok.

If he truly believes the guy is a "yes-man" to Bush and incompetent... then he should say it. That he's willing to say it first directly to the man himself... shows me that he's not only doing the right thing... he's doing it the right way.

There's no hiding from criticism just because you are uniformed. Especially during a time of war. And especially if you are in a senior leadership role in a war that is universally seen as having been executed horribly.

We need more leaders who are willing to stand up to incompetence.

Adept Havelock
06-15-2007, 10:47 AM
Well then, do you think it's a good idea for him to call uniformed military personnel incompetent?


If he's referring to his opinion of a specific individual (as it's apparently not the sweeping generalization you attempted to make it out to be. Nice try though...taking lessons from jAZ?), certainly.

BTW- Seems to me that President Bush agrees to some extent, or Pace would still be up for confirmation as the Chairman of the Joint Chiefs. JMO. :shrug:


With that said, I'd agree that Reid has said and done some truly foolish things, especially regarding "Immigration Reform".

Saggysack
06-15-2007, 10:51 AM
Apparently there isn't a Central and South AMERICA anymore.

jAZ
06-15-2007, 10:58 AM
BTW- Seems to me that President Bush must agree, or Pace would still be up for confirmation as the Chairman of the Joint Chiefs. JMO. :shrug:
Which when you see the context of the comment, we his exact point.

The question was about why Gonzalez is sticking around. Reed pointed out that it's a good question because Bush is pushing out Pace who Reed sees as a yes-man and equally incompetant.

It was a complete aside on his part, and way overblown by the RW noise machine.

The underlying question "Why push out Pace, but keep Gonzalez" is a good one. And most likely answered in both cases as an attempt to avoid accountability.

Reconfirmation of Pace would have involved testimony before Congress. Same with putting in a new AG.

Pitt Gorilla
06-15-2007, 11:12 AM
Yeah, I don't care what you feel about the issue... they aren't Americans (yet?) and the politics of that choice of words seems horrendous.
While I would prefer he call them "illegal aliens", they are Americans. Do people not learn geography anymore?

Cochise
06-15-2007, 11:13 AM
If he's referring to his opinion of a specific individual (as it's apparently not the sweeping generalization you attempted to make it out to be. Nice try though...taking lessons from jAZ?), certainly.

I am glad you picked up on the irony, which was intended.

My point is that it goes over well with people like jAZ but the rest of America sees criticizing uniformed military peronnel as dubious. Criticize the politicians, Bush, everyone like that all you want, but leave the guys alone who have done nothing more than have the audacity to try to win a war.

Anyway, I didn't mean to distract from Reid's "undocumented Americans" comment. But I guess a full 19% of America agrees that Reid is doing a great job.

Chief Faithful
06-15-2007, 11:28 AM
Hell yes it's ok.

He better not do it if he doesn't mean it. But hell yes it's ok.

If he truly believes the guy is a "yes-man" to Bush and incompetent... then he should say it. That he's willing to say it first directly to the man himself... shows me that he's not only doing the right thing... he's doing it the right way.

There's no hiding from criticism just because you are uniformed. Especially during a time of war. And especially if you are in a senior leadership role in a war that is universally seen as having been executed horribly.

We need more leaders who are willing to stand up to incompetence.

:)

What if Ried is calling a competent officer incompetent only for political reasons? Is it really a good idea that the senior most leader in the Senate is also the most devisive Senator?

The question I have is how can Ried recognize competence? Doesn't it take competence to recognize competence?

StcChief
06-15-2007, 11:32 AM
When is his term up? Neveda needs to replace this scum bag

Chief Faithful
06-15-2007, 11:36 AM
The underlying question "Why push out Pace, but keep Gonzalez" is a good one. And most likely answered in both cases as an attempt to avoid accountability.

Reconfirmation of Pace would have involved testimony before Congress. Same with putting in a new AG.

Based on the news I've read, Bush is disarming the Democrats by not submitting Pace for Reconfirmation. If the news is true then Gonzalez is safe because he is not up for Reconfirmation.

I would agree with your point if Pace was being fired and Gonzalez was not.

Chief Faithful
06-15-2007, 11:42 AM
While I would prefer he call them "illegal aliens", they are Americans. Do people not learn geography anymore?

If that is what Ried meant then he is incorrect because I'm sure they are documented in Mexico.

Face it, Reid is spinning.

Pitt Gorilla
06-15-2007, 11:51 AM
If that is what Ried meant then he is incorrect because I'm sure they are documented in Mexico.

Face it, Reid is spinning.I think he is spinning and I'm not a big fan. It doesn't mean his statement was incorrect. Could I not call a person from Germany who is illegally living in the US and has no paperwork an "undocumented German?" Granted, I woudn't call them that, as I prefer "illegal alien." I just don't see how it is incorrect.

Cochise
06-15-2007, 11:58 AM
If that is what Ried meant then he is incorrect because I'm sure they are documented in Mexico.

Face it, Reid is spinning.

What it sounds to me like Reid thinks is that "American" just means anyone who is currently within our borders.

Reid is pressing so hard to get these people amnesty because he considers them as American as anyone else. Someone born in Cuba who has Cuban citizenship and sneaks into the United States is an American - just an undocumented American.

You have to wonder, if Harry Reid really had his way could you just go to the DMV and get citizenship in 10 minutes?


What I think this is setting up for is that Reid and others on this amnesty bill are going to try to say that these people are Americans like all the rest of us. They can already be seen on the cable news spouting off about all the "hateful rhetoric" from the other side. Eventually, Reid and his ilk are going to be saying that if you oppose amnesty it's because you're a racist, and we can't let policy be dictated by a bunch of bigots - so just go ahead and ram-rod it through.

jAZ
06-15-2007, 12:01 PM
If that is what Ried meant then he is incorrect because I'm sure they are documented in Mexico.

Face it, Reid is spinning.
Spinning what? AFAICT, Reid isn't saying he meant "American's" in the Western Hemisphire sense... That's just thrown out here. Right?

jAZ
06-15-2007, 12:02 PM
What it sounds to me like Reid thinks is that "American" just means anyone who is currently within our borders.
That's not a fair guess, IMO.

He probably means all those living and working here who would eventually take advantage of a path to citizenship.

He's wrong to speak that way. And factually wrong to call even those people American's at this point.

But no need to make it into something more than it is.

jAZ
06-15-2007, 12:16 PM
My point is that it goes over well with people like jAZ but the rest of America sees criticizing uniformed military peronnel as dubious. Criticize the politicians, Bush, everyone like that all you want, but leave the guys alone who have done nothing more than have the audacity to try to win a war.
ROFLMAO at your use of "uniformed military peronnel" rather than "soldiers".

Trying to conflate a political appointee with the boots on the ground.

What a joke.

That's like saying WMD when you mean old Iran-war chem munitions. A deliberate obfuscation.

kaplin42
06-15-2007, 12:25 PM
While I would prefer he call them "illegal aliens", they are Americans. Do people not learn geography anymore?


Please, this line of thinking is merely PC at best.

When people say American, they are implying the U.S.A. I know it, you know it and so does everyone else.

Made in America ? Could you be more specific, is that made in Canada, Brazil or Guatamala.

The Americans are leading the war on terror? Could you be more specific, is that Mexico, Argentina or Peru.

Or could it be that they both mean the U.S.A?

Don't try and confuse the situation. Reid is doing nothing but dumbing down and PCing the situation. Undocumented Americans doesn't sound nearly as harsh as Illegal Immigrant.

For flucks sake when will people see through the bull shit.

PunkinDrublic
06-15-2007, 12:43 PM
Michelle Malkin is a RWNJ you can't trust anything she has to say. I would however **** the shit of her.

Chief Faithful
06-15-2007, 12:45 PM
I think he is spinning and I'm not a big fan. It doesn't mean his statement was incorrect. Could I not call a person from Germany who is illegally living in the US and has no paperwork an "undocumented German?" Granted, I woudn't call them that, as I prefer "illegal alien." I just don't see how it is incorrect.

Yes, just as it would be correct to call the illegal alien an undocumented Mexican. It would be odd to call the German an undocumented European and would call to question what you meant.

Same case here, Ried is intentionally trying to create a perseption that the Mexican's have the same rights in this country as any natural born.

Chief Faithful
06-15-2007, 12:53 PM
Spinning what? AFAICT, Reid isn't saying he meant "American's" in the Western Hemisphire sense... That's just thrown out here. Right?

He is correct if he is calling Mexican's members of the same continent, but he would be incorrect if he is saying they are undocumented citizens of this country. I think he is just paving the way for Amensity by spinning his words.

Chief Faithful
06-15-2007, 12:54 PM
Please, this line of thinking is merely PC at best.

When people say American, they are implying the U.S.A. I know it, you know it and so does everyone else.

Made in America ? Could you be more specific, is that made in Canada, Brazil or Guatamala.

The Americans are leading the war on terror? Could you be more specific, is that Mexico, Argentina or Peru.

Or could it be that they both mean the U.S.A?

Don't try and confuse the situation. Reid is doing nothing but dumbing down and PCing the situation. Undocumented Americans doesn't sound nearly as harsh as Illegal Immigrant.

For flucks sake when will people see through the bull shit.

Exactly

banyon
06-15-2007, 01:29 PM
Reid...

http://www.workingforchange.com/webgraphics/WFC/TMW060407.jpg

Pitt Gorilla
06-15-2007, 02:17 PM
Yes, just as it would be correct to call the illegal alien an undocumented Mexican. It would be odd to call the German an undocumented European and would call to question what you meant.

Same case here, Ried is intentionally trying to create a perseption that the Mexican's have the same rights in this country as any natural born.I don't disagree that Reid is spinning; that seems pretty clear. I was responding to the assertion that it was "incorrect;" it's not incorrect. Did I stutter?

Cochise
06-15-2007, 02:57 PM
He is correct if he is calling Mexican's members of the same continent, but he would be incorrect if he is saying they are undocumented citizens of this country. I think he is just paving the way for Amensity by spinning his words.

What about the illegal aliens coming over here from Asia hiding in shipping containers? Are they also "undocumented Americans"?

kaplin42
06-15-2007, 03:07 PM
I don't disagree that Reid is spinning; that seems pretty clear. I was responding to the assertion that it was "incorrect;" it's not incorrect. Did I stutter?

No but your point is invalid and based on nothing but semantics.

Pitt Gorilla
06-15-2007, 03:15 PM
No but your point is invalid and based on nothing but semantics.How is my point "invalid?"

kaplin42
06-15-2007, 03:21 PM
How is my point "invalid?"

Please, this line of thinking is merely PC at best.

When people say American, they are implying the U.S.A. I know it, you know it and so does everyone else.

Made in America ? Could you be more specific, is that made in Canada, Brazil or Guatamala.

The Americans are leading the war on terror? Could you be more specific, is that Mexico, Argentina or Peru.

Or could it be that they both mean the U.S.A?

Don't try and confuse the situation. Reid is doing nothing but dumbing down and PCing the situation. Undocumented Americans doesn't sound nearly as harsh as Illegal Immigrant.

For flucks sake when will people see through the bull shit..

Pitt Gorilla
06-15-2007, 03:27 PM
My point is invalid due to your colloquial understanding? I suppose, I mean I certainly wouldn't wan't it to be valid/invalid due to some sort of establishment of fact.

jAZ
06-15-2007, 03:38 PM
What about the illegal aliens coming over here from Asia hiding in shipping containers? Are they also "undocumented Americans"?
Actually far more illegal immigrants come from over-stayed visas.

Something a wall won't affect at all.

kaplin42
06-15-2007, 03:40 PM
My point is invalid due to your colloquial understanding? I suppose, I mean I certainly wouldn't wan't it to be valid/invalid due to some sort of establishment of fact.

In a word, YES!!

Trying to justify what Reid meant by saying "he could of meant Southern Americans guys or Canadians. Come on listen to me, really there is a southern america isn't there" is seriously just semantics. He meant illegal aliens, but was just basically pandering to the special interest groups that he is trying to please.

More than anything, I believe that you are just saying this southern american thing to be annoying and difficult, not to actually try and be correct in way, shape or form.

banyon
06-15-2007, 03:46 PM
My point is invalid due to your colloquial understanding? I suppose, I mean I certainly wouldn't wan't it to be valid/invalid due to some sort of establishment of fact.

I don't like the way he made the point, but contextually, I think it's pretty clear that Reid is trying to pull off some kind of "Rove-esque" "two word culture" inversion of language to support his point.

kaplin42
06-15-2007, 03:51 PM
Actually far more illegal immigrants come from over-stayed visas.

Something a wall won't affect at all.



Hmmm....

According to the National Immigration Forum, four out of 10 undocumented immigrants enter the country legally on temporary visas as students, visitors, tourists, or temporary workers, and stay after their visas expire.

Link (http://www.afsc.org/immigrants-rights/learn/in-us.htm)


If you go to the above link, it has a graph that shows you what the origins of the immigration is.

jAZ
06-15-2007, 03:58 PM
Hmmm....



Link (http://www.afsc.org/immigrants-rights/learn/in-us.htm)


If you go to the above link, it has a graph that shows you what the origins of the immigration is.
Thanks for the link and supporting my point.

(And just to be clear, my point is that more come from over-stayed visa's than from "hiding in shipping containers".)

My second sentence was a reference to the fact that (per your stats) 40% of the problem won't be solved by building a wall along the border.

kaplin42
06-15-2007, 04:02 PM
Thanks for the link and supporting my point.

(And just to be clear, my point is that more come from over-stayed visa's than from "hiding in shipping containers".)

My second sentence was a reference to the fact that (per your stats) 40% of the problem won't be solved by building a wall along the border.


Maybe im not understanding? Which is more than possible. If 40% are from over stayed visas and what not, doesn't that leave 60% that came here illegally?

Yeah, 40% won't be solved by securing the borders with a fence. But if we actually enforced the laws on the books, I would be willing to bet that number would drop quite a bit as well.

Pitt Gorilla
06-15-2007, 06:22 PM
In a word, YES!!

Trying to justify what Reid meant by saying "he could of meant Southern Americans guys or Canadians. Come on listen to me, really there is a southern america isn't there" is seriously just semantics. He meant illegal aliens, but was just basically pandering to the special interest groups that he is trying to please.

More than anything, I believe that you are just saying this southern american thing to be annoying and difficult, not to actually try and be correct in way, shape or form.Good Lord, read my posts. It's not that difficult. I know what he meant and I disagree with what he said and how he said it. It was NOT incorrect, though. Is it too much to ask for you to think?

Pitt Gorilla
06-15-2007, 06:32 PM
I don't like the way he made the point, but contextually, I think it's pretty clear that Reid is trying to pull off some kind of "Rove-esque" "two word culture" inversion of language to support his point.I don't know that he's that smart. He doesn't want to say "illegal alien", so he says some PC crap. My asserton is that statement is not incorrect, as has been claimed and poorly "supported." WWAVD? (Amerigo Vespucci)

kaplin42
06-16-2007, 09:24 AM
Good Lord, read my posts. It's not that difficult. I know what he meant and I disagree with what he said and how he said it. It was NOT incorrect, though. Is it too much to ask for you to think?

Thats funny, I would ask the same of you.

I have made my point, and it's pretty clear. Sad, that you can't see that.

Pitt Gorilla
06-16-2007, 12:04 PM
Thats funny, I would ask the same of you.

I have made my point, and it's pretty clear. Sad, that you can't see that.You have done nothing to disprove my point. Of course, it would be difficult given that it is based in fact.

jAZ
06-16-2007, 12:13 PM
Maybe im not understanding? Which is more than possible. If 40% are from over stayed visas and what not, doesn't that leave 60% that came here illegally?

Yeah, 40% won't be solved by securing the borders with a fence. But if we actually enforced the laws on the books, I would be willing to bet that number would drop quite a bit as well.
Sorry, I missed this.

I don't disagree with enforcement, but my sense is that the wall is a generally going to be a boondoggle. Enforcement happens at the hiring level.

And I also predict that we will create one problem by "fixing" another.

Put up a fence (assuming it would work) and you will have more people over staying their visa. The raw number of visa vilolations would go up dramatically, IMO.

The only sure solution is fixing Mexico's economy. The others are just bandaids for the most part. And political hammers.