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View Full Version : Did we blow it this year by giving away all of our draft picks


Mosbonian
04-21-2001, 06:14 PM
Have Carl & DV mortgaged our future by their moves thus far?

mmaddog
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Mosbonian
04-21-2001, 06:17 PM
That should read...

Giving away all our early draft picks...

HC_Chief
04-21-2001, 06:19 PM
Not IMO.

We gained a veteran QB, RB and WR plus a 2x SB HC in exchange for a #1 and a #2. All in all, I would say we made out like bandits! :D

KCWolfman
04-21-2001, 06:20 PM
If Williams falls to injury and McCallister does well in N.O., I will have a coronary since he fell all the way to 23rd

RJ
04-21-2001, 06:25 PM
Yes, and it all started the day we signed Vermeil despite having to sacrifice two picks. Even the 70's to late 80's teams didn't make me this angry. I didn't expect much back then.

Mosbonian
04-21-2001, 06:26 PM
H C:

Usually you and i see eye to eye on things, but not on this draft.

My eyes see us getting a QB just coming off a knee injury that cost us a VALUABLE 1st round pick, a "retired" SB coach that cost us a valuable 2nd rd pick, and a WR/KR who is a know drug user(can you say Tamarick Vanover), who might pan out for us.

The only positive is that we signed Priest Holmes, which could have been done earlier and cost less if we had at least given Garner a look see to drive down the salary for Holmes.

I guess this year i see the glass half-empty.

mmaddog
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Pitt Gorilla
04-21-2001, 06:28 PM
Everyone simmer down!! I figured quite a few people would post things like this because we feel left out. Every one of these guys seems like such a great player, a can't miss prospect. That's what the draft is supposed to feel like. However, it never ends up that way. Some of these guys will be great. Most will not. That's just the way it is. Just enjoy the day, as well as our new qb, rb, wr, etc.

HC_Chief
04-21-2001, 06:33 PM
Well, we all see things differently.

I see the Vermeil/Sauders/Robinson hirings as a very good positive step towards post-season success(finally).

DV has taken two HORRIBLE franchises and turned them into SB contenders. Because of that, I trust his judgment. He thought we just HAD to have Green. Trent put up outstanding #s in a similar O last season, and he can command our O right away, so I see only a 1st as more than fair compensation. We could not have expected a rookie 1st round pick to do as much.

Holmes has done something no KC back has done since Okoye: rush for 1000+ yards. And THAT was for a bad Baltimore team (not long after they moved from Cleveland).

Horne is an outstanding KR and adds speed and depth to our WR corps.

So far, I'm very happy with this 'draft' (though watching the first 2 rounds has been kind of boring) :)

Mosbonian
04-21-2001, 06:34 PM
Pitt:

If you have followed my threads you know I am by nature a "homer", who supports the team and looks for the positive. But i see nothing to be positive about in the movements that the Chiefs have made thus far.

mmaddog
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Mosbonian
04-21-2001, 06:40 PM
H C:

It took him 3 years to rebuild those teams and he did it mostly with high draft picks, not retreads.

Saunders and Robinson are good hires and I agree there. But if they don't have quality players for them to coach, then they will be cast aside too.

Horne could be just as much a liability as a positive, and we are only a re-injury to Green's slowly rehabbing knee(his comments today worry me) away from Bubby Brister as our QB.(Remember how we ridiculed Denver when they had him).

mmaddog
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Logical
04-21-2001, 06:40 PM
Mark,

I sure see it differently than you and that is even with me not being all that enamored with Green. I would have given up our first and second just to get rid of Gun and the Stooges. Green definitely is the right QB for the planned offense and knowing as much about knee problems as I do I realize that this surgery was just a cleanup for extra mobility, not because there was a problem with the knee. As well as Green moved last year he has shown that he is not much more of a risk than most other QBs. The Chiefs line is superb at pass blocking so his old bugaboo the sack will not factor in like it did at Washington and St. Louis.

In todays NFL the number of players that have not messed with grass probably is in the low 10 to 20 percent, lets be real he got caught and yes he could get caught again but so could a ton of players. I would be significantly more concernded if he had been busted for serious drug abuse like cocaine etc. Hopefully he learned his lesson and will not want to risk $600K for a little weed.

We have a RB that is young and perfect for the new offense, is he a superstar NO, but he will probably get around 1100 yards rushing and 600 yards pass receiving with 10-12 TDs because he fits this offense. That will be pretty darn good and considering he is pretty rugged might be much better than Deuce would offer with his history of not being durable in a 12 game college season.

I certainly think we got more value than we would have gotten with a 1 and 2. (but I have watched the Chiefs blow skill position pick after skill position pick for almost 35 years and have no faith in the draft for these positions.

It is all in perspective, and I can understand yours as well.

Mosbonian
04-21-2001, 06:43 PM
Logical:

You make some very good points, although Gun & Co leaving was a foregone conclusion...why we had to have Vermeil was beyond me. Carl's love affair with all things UCLA have gotten in the way of his judgement(impaired as it may be).

I just think we gave away our early round draft picks too easy this year.

mmaddog
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HC_Chief
04-21-2001, 06:46 PM
Really, we didn't 'give' away anything but our #1 for Green. Tagliaboob screwed us and awarded StLouis the #2 as compensation after the fact.

kcred
04-21-2001, 06:55 PM
I think we have improved just in coaching, we also have give the OC and HC, got what they want, I think maybe we could have moved up into the 2nd, but hell, we have blown 2nd rounders recently, Atkins, Cloud, etc. so who knows.

Mosbonian
04-21-2001, 06:56 PM
H C:

Technically, you are right.

But we lost our first 2 picks as a result of the acquisition of Vermeil. One for him, and one for the player HE had to absolutely have!!!


mmaddog
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bigdaddychieffan
04-21-2001, 07:05 PM
I feel like we did not do that bad with the players and coach we got with our first two picks. It seems as if everybody is saying what if Duece goes on to be a great runningback. There is just as good of a chance that Priest will be a stud runningback. I also was not for the Green trade initially. The more I have thought about it though, the more I really like the trade that the Chiefs got. I think that Green will be fine come training camp and will be as effective as Grbac would have been for us if he would have stayed. Tony Horne is just a stud and as long as he can stay away from the doobies than he will have been an excellent pick up. Remember, Carl would have just blown our draft picks anyway, at least this way we get some known commodities.

DenverChief
04-21-2001, 08:11 PM
Originally posted by Mark Kilgore
H C:

It took him 3 years to rebuild those teams and he did it mostly with high draft picks, not retreads.

Saunders and Robinson are good hires and I agree there. But if they don't have quality players for them to coach, then they will be cast aside too.

Horne could be just as much a liability as a positive, and we are only a re-injury to Green's slowly rehabbing knee(his comments today worry me) away from Bubby Brister as our QB.(Remember how we ridiculed Denver when they had him).

mmaddog
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Uh Correct me if I'm wrong but Trent went to St. Louis from Washington, Warner from the Iowa Barnstormers, Faulk from the Colts...Those were not high draft picks mark and they won the superbowl....we got our high draft picks the last couple of years(Tait,Gonzalez,Wesely) and we needed a few seasoned veterans (Green,,Holmes,Horne VS Warner, Green, Faulk)...I'm not too sure about the Eagles but I could find out if you like :)

Logical
04-21-2001, 08:45 PM
Hey Mark,

So after these reaches in the 3rd, are you still so upset we lost our 2nd. We would have reached there as well. Carl always seems to after the first round. He does it well on day 2 but seems to suck in the 2nd and 3rd round.

Oh well maybe these guys will turn out well, but it does not change the fact that we took a 5th or even 6th round lineman in the 3rd. Disgusted as usual with our draft pics, but still hoping for the best.

Pitt Gorilla
04-21-2001, 09:13 PM
Would drafting a player like Eric Hicks in the first or second round have been a reach? What the hell is a reach? Is that when a team drafts someone that Kiper told them not to? These are football people who spend millions of dollars on scouting. They might possibly know a little more than Joe Fan. Hicks was an undrafted FA that may have been pro bowl bound barring an injury.

Pitt Gorilla
04-21-2001, 09:29 PM
Would drafting a player like Eric Hicks in the first or second round have been a reach? What the hell is a reach? Is that when a team drafts someone that Kiper told them not to? These are football people who spend millions of dollars on scouting. They might possibly know a little more than Joe Fan. Hicks was an undrafted FA that may have been pro bowl bound barring an injury.

Mosbonian
04-21-2001, 09:55 PM
DenverChief:

Unlike most people, I don't believe that the Rams won just because they inherited Faulk when the Colts wanted James. Faulk was a key ingredient, but without his supporting cast, his lot in St Loius would have been the same as it was in Indy. Correct me if i am wrong, but I don't remember a SB flag flying over Indianapolis?

What you failed to add were the starters that they picked up thru the draft to get where they were!!!!

My point is this:

We gave up the opportunity to draft our future for the present in a QB who, by every account reported today, MAY NOT be ready to practice until late July!!!!
How is that a smart "draft pick"?

And as for our dependence on Horne, a drug abuser (do the names Vanover & Morris ring a bell) that one is questionable.

Holmes is a good pick-up, but could have been had for less money if we had looked at garner and driven down Holme's asking price by appearing to be interested in Garner.

As for Vermeil, everyone seems to forget that he was one season from being run out of St. Louis on a rail!!

mmaddog
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Mosbonian
04-21-2001, 10:07 PM
Our first 3rd rounder appears to be a surprise to all, but I like Minnis. I think he could surprise everyone.

mmaddog
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Brock
04-21-2001, 10:12 PM
mmaddog - if you have realplayer on your computer, skip on over to kcchiefs.com and watch the Trent Green press conference. You'll feel a whole lot better. Like you, I was completely against giving up a number one pick for Green, but after listening to this guy and hearing the enthusiasm and obvious charisma this guy possesses, I am quite intrigued. Green is head and shoulders above Grbac in terms of dealing with people.

Mosbonian
04-21-2001, 10:31 PM
I give the guy good marks for his people skills and desire..but, he won't be able to practice until late July and that sucks big time...

I can't stomach having Bubby Brister taking snaps..

mmaddog
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DaneMcCloud
04-21-2001, 11:24 PM
Mark, I really don't understand your frustration. The Chiefs didn't have a starting QB, and the players available in free agency would have been one year stop gaps, nothing more. Beuerline was old and injured, Dilfer could hit the broad side of a broad, Aikman was too beat up, Johnson was fragile (and not interested) and Banks is well, Tony Banks. The Chiefs didn't have a choice if they wanted to win now. Trent Green is and will continue to be a good QB and after his knee heals, will not give him future problems. Giving up a second rounder, while I feel is too high, is certainly not unprecedented for a coach with his pedigree, and it's far less than the Jets gave up for Parcells. I can personally guarantee that Trent Green and Dick Vermiel's staff will have a much quicker and longer lasting impact than say a Damione Lewis and Tommy Polley. How much real and immediate impact did Sly Mo or William Bartee have last year? How about John Tait and Mike Cloud the year before? Draft picks are no substitute for experience, leadership and proven ability. The Chiefs will have a much better season than if Duece McCallister and Trent Dilfer were the starters!

sun
04-22-2001, 12:19 AM
Mark,

IMO....the chiefs were a qb and a rb away from being legit contenders. While Trent Green may not have been my first choice in a perfect world, he is the best available to us. On Holmes: I really, really like this guy, he is super tough and a stand up human being, most of us will be wearing his jersey by week 3 ( ill have one in preseason.

Also, you are somewhat misguided about DV's team building (in st louis anyway), examples:

Kurt Warner: Iowa Barnstormers, rookie FA signee of the packers, never drafted.

Marshall Faulk: trade with Indianapolis

Adam Timmerman: FA signee from packers

Todd Collins: Fa signee from patriots

Rickey Prhoel: Ufa......bears

Mike Jones: Ufa.....raiders

Adam Gruttadauria: Undrafted Fa.....cowboys

Lamar Fletcher: Undrafted fa

all of the above were major players on the rams super bowl team

Vermeil's draft pick contributors to the super bowl team:

Orlando Pace

Torry Holt

Taje Allen (now a chief)

Tony Horne (now a chief)

Of course we would love to draft Holt or Pace, but we might have gotten Holt already with Minnis (optimist)

sun
04-22-2001, 12:35 AM
also Mark,

your argument that Faulk wasnt a huge key to that team is just very bad........he was the biggest key in most people's opinion (at least a tie with winning the back up qb lottery with warner)

and in indy, he did get indy to the afc championship in (guessing) 95.........we as chiefs fans remember playing indy in the lin eliot/steve bono debacle (faulk did not play against us, but did return)

sun
04-22-2001, 02:16 AM
and one more thing........

i hate the idea of bubby quarterbacking the chiefs as much as anybody......but......you do have to admit he is a proven backup and he did kick our *** on the monday night meltdown game a couple years ago

alanm
04-22-2001, 03:56 AM
Sure we didn't get to have that Christmas feeling with the draft on Saturday since we opened our presents on Friday. But all in all I thought aquiring Green, Horne and Holmes was the best move we could have made. Sure it's not as glamourous as drafting that #1 stud but these guys are all solid players. I think we'll be just fine. Now today I'd like to see them pick up some Nebraska and K-State players :D

Mosbonian
04-22-2001, 09:38 AM
Dane:

Yours first.......

I am pissed because we traded away valuable draft picks!!

All the QB's that were out there were pretty much equal, so the idea was to get the best for the least. We decided to get the average for the most!!!! You tell me what would be the difference between having Trent Green or Steve Beurlein at the helm. And don't say that B-line is a 2 year stop gap, because anyone who thinks Green will be here any longer than 2 years is delusional.
(BTW, all the Green supporters are awfully silent about the fact that we found out yesterday that the progress of his rehab isn't going as planned and he won't be able to practice until LATE JULY)

We needed to draft a stud D-lineman with that early pick and we gave it away.

Bartee and Tait are bad examples to use if you are trying to make your second point Dane. Tait is gonna be an anchor at his spot, pretty much already is, and as for Bartee, well he was a victim of Kurt's stupid defensive scheme.

My frustration lies with the fact that Peterson & Vermeil gave away too much for a guy who has proven too little.

mmaddog
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HC_Chief
04-22-2001, 10:28 AM
<i>My frustration lies with the fact that Peterson & Vermeil gave away too much for a guy who has proven too little. </i>

He has 24 more starts than ANY rookie we would have drafted. That makes him infinitely more 'proven' than any draft pick.

The guy appeared in 8 games last season - 5 starts. 102QB rating(tops in NFC, 2nd in NFL), 16TDs, 5INTs. That is DAMN good - better than Warner did in the same system... and w/o Faulk for several of those games.

We got him for LESS than a #1 - when the lambs were adamant about a 1+3.

I really don't see a negative here. Warren or Seymour or Carter - none of them would have the immediate-to-long-term impact Green is likely to have. The guy we drafted at #12 overall would have cost us more than Green's VERY friendly contract does.

IMHO, Friday April 20th will go down as the day we took our first step towards a SB victory.

Mosbonian
04-22-2001, 04:30 PM
H C:

Why has everyone managed to gloss over the revelation on Green that his rehab is not going as expected? I have posted this several times and no one has even acknowledged it!! Why are we fooling with a QB whose rehab isn't as expected?

I have acknowledged that Holmes was an excellent pick-up, but we did it at an inflated price due to the fact that we never even acknowledged Garner. Do you think maybe we could have gotten him at a little lesser of a price if we looked like we had a choice?

Until such a time as Green gets on the field and shows:

1)Leadership,

and

2)The ability to do more than our previous fill-in QB's

he is nothing more than another brick in the wall.

mmaddog
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htismaqe
04-22-2001, 04:35 PM
Mark,

The quote from Green about him being frustrated with his rehab has been taken terribly out-of-context.

He's frustrated because he's finally getting his shot to be a starter and he can't participate in drills right now. Keep in mind, he's not rehabbing from a knee injury, he's healing from ROUTINE surgery.

We'll be fine, keep the faith...I wasn't even a Green supporter before this weekend, but this is what we got, I'm gonna be happy with it...

Mosbonian
04-22-2001, 04:44 PM
htismaque:

In an article from yesterday's Star, Carl was quoted as saying that it could be late July before he could practice. Isn't that a little late to be trying to get in sync with the first team?

mmaddog
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htismaqe
04-22-2001, 05:01 PM
Carl didn't say that, Teicher did...

It's speculation...cheer up...

sun
04-22-2001, 05:23 PM
ok Mark,

i know i should just let this go, but for some reason i cant.......

Who exactly would be better for the chiefs than Trent Green?......steve buerlien??....no (btw.....he is coming off surgery too, and wouldnt be ready until summer either).....trent dilfer?.....i dont think so.........tony banks?.........any of the rookies in the draft?......(all those who want to sit through a rookie maturation process, step forward................feel lonely?)

The point is Mark, quarterback is the most important position on the team, and the chiefs had one, Todd Collins, a starter a long, long time ago who couldnt beat out 44 year old Warren Moon for the back up spot last year, so the chiefs had to get a quarterback.

Why Green?

He knows our new offense.
Our coaches love him.......(maybe we will see why in october).
Former teammates love him......(can we say the same about our last qb?)
We dont have to wait 2-3 years for him to mature.....(ie.....any rookie qb in history)
He was the highest rated qb in the league last year
He wants to be here
and nobody wants to acknowledge this one but i really believe it...........Tony Gonzales......TG is not going to wait around for qb musical chairs, which is exactly what would happen by signing SB and bringing in a rookie to "groom"

bottom line Mark, we gave a first round pick and recieved green, a fifth, and tony horne........id do this deal every time and feel like i got the better end of it

CanadaKC
04-22-2001, 05:37 PM
If Gonzalez is happy, then I'm happy. Very happy.
Happy, happy, happy :~)

Logical
04-22-2001, 06:44 PM
Mark,

First back in March they said it might be as late as the start of Training Camp before Green could practice so this is not a surprise. In case you have forgotten Camp starts at the end of July so this is not a change in his recovery for the worse, it matches exactly what they said was possible. As others have pointed out this is a clean-up to provide more mobility and rushing the recovery is not needed as he knows this offense so it will not make a difference. He will have at least a month and a half before the season starts to work with the rest of the players who are just learning the offense. Most likely they will just be catching up with Green mentally when he gets on the field.

Now you can quit saying that no one has responded about his condition. I left it alone thinking you would figure this out on your own, you usually do, but since you kept moaning here is your response.

Not a huge Green supporter but knowledgeable enough to know that the offense will be better because Saunders and Vermeil had the faith in him that they did not have in any other QB. If you as a mechanic use parts you do not have faith in and then jury rig the engine to attempt to compensate you usually end up with a poorly performing engine that breaks down a lot.

Think about it Mark, it makes sense. Besides Deuce went to a team that will not even use him if Williams is healthy, because no one else had faith he could physically handle the rigor of play in the NFL. Please do not say "but we would or could have gotten a top DT instead" you watched the draft we were going after offense whether better defensive players were there or not. Vermiel was going to take Deuce if we kept the 12 and he was there so your whole argument about a defensive player collapses.

philfree
04-22-2001, 06:50 PM
Giving our 1st round pick for a player who can step in as an immediate starter is what every NFL team wants so IMO we got good value for our first round pick. As far as Snoop is concerned all he did was lead the nation in receiving yardage and yards per catch. I think he will prove to be a steal! As far as our 2nd for DV I don't think thats to bad for a two time Super Bowl coach. I feel better now then I did a month ago but only time will tell.

PhilFree

Mosbonian
04-22-2001, 08:34 PM
Logical:

"Now you can quit saying that no one has responded about his condition. I left it alone thinking you would figure this out on your own, you usually do, but since you kept moaning here is your response. "

You know why I "moaned" about it? Because for the most part all I am hearing is how great this deal is, but he won't be part of any practicing until July...yet everyone refuses to admit that should be a concern.

I "had" it all figured out a long time ago, but it's like everyone is "star-struck" by Green. No one wants to admit the down side to this deal! I will admit that there is an upside IF he is healthy, if you guys will admit we have gambled a great deal on a guy who hasn't proven that much.

mmaddog
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philfree
04-22-2001, 08:53 PM
Mark,
I agree that there is some risk with Greens knee but it is the same knee he posted a QB rating above 100 with last year. If the removal of the scar tissue was effctive then when it is healed it will be even better then it was last year. And as far as practicing is concerned there are alot of things Trent can do while he is waiting to acually take the field. He can work in the weight room and spend time doing various drills and at the same time act as a teacher to the rest of his team mates as they work on the offensive system. Dilfer may not have any questions with his health and there wouldn't be any risk in signing him. But the fact is we already know he sucks.

PhilFree

Logical
04-22-2001, 10:30 PM
Mark,

As I have said I am not that enamored of him, but it is better to have the parts for our offensive engine that DV and AS want then have them jury rig the engine with parts in which they are uncomfortable.

Sure there is a risk of the knee, but truthfully since he has already demonstrated last season that he can play with considerable mobility it is not significantly greater than the risk with any other QB.

The thing I do not follow in your statements is that he only has 2 years here max. I can easily see 5 more years maybe 7 or 8. It is not that unusual for a QB to play until 38 or 39. Now that is not to say the last two years would not be as a backup, but look around the league there are several QBs either starting or backing up that are 38.

I am just trying to look at the entire picture.

htismaqe
04-23-2001, 06:49 AM
Mark,

I only have 1 point...

I was one of the most adamant dissenters on the whole Green thing. I didn't want him at any cost.

The problem is that it's too late. The deal is done. Get over it. I'm ready for September...

Gaz
04-23-2001, 07:52 AM
"With the #12 pick, the Kansas City Chiefs select QB Trent Green, WR Tony Horne and RB Derrick Blaylock."

Even with concerns about Green's knee, that must be acknowledged as an awesome pick. We got excellent value for the pick and we made our HC & DC happy. Win/win.

"With the #42 pick, the Kansas City Chiefs select HC Dick Vermiel, OC Al Saunders, DC Greg Robinson and STC Frank Gansz, Jr."

The value here must be judged against the alternative: Gunther and the Stooges. Yes, there were other choices available to Carl, but he was not going to take them. It boiled down to Vermeil or the Stooges. We can [and should] bash Carl for the way he handled the situation, and we can criticize him for refusing to consider other viable options, but to judge the value of this pick you have to consider only one question: was it worth Lamont Jordan to get rid of the Stooges? The answer, IMO, is clearly and unarguably yes.

xoxo~
Gaz
Taking a "value" perspective.

Otter
04-23-2001, 08:25 AM
I can honestly say I would have given up our 1st and 3rd to just to get rid of the stooges. The Chiefs were not always a top-notch team since I've been following them since '90 but I've never been embarrased to be a Chief fan like I was last season.

Good perspective Gaz.

Before I take bashings for that, I was not ashamed to be a Chiefs fan but ashamed of the stupidity portrayed by their coaches over and over and the lack of Gunther's PR skills and......deep breath.

You get the picture.

KC Jones
04-23-2001, 08:32 AM
According to Peter King (ESPN), Green has leadership skills in spades. Jason WHitlock had him on the phone this morning. Guy said he was a total team leader and favorite in St. Louis.

As for giving up too much for him, King thought we got him for a song. He compared it to the Brad Johnson trade where they gave up a 1,2, and 3, but added that he thinks Green is further along and more proven than Johnson was then.

mlyonsd
04-23-2001, 08:42 AM
Great perspective gaz.

I have to admit I was not overly excited when DV was named HC, even a little upset when it turned out we would lose our 2nd round pick.

I was also not happy we were entertaining the idea of getting Green, bum knee and all. Needless to say Friday night I was one unhappy camper.

But in hindsight we only lost 1 pick and got Green, Horne, and what's his name in the 5th. If I think of the alternative (Gun and the stooges) I feel a lot better about it.

King_Chief_Fan
04-23-2001, 10:10 AM
I saw in KC Star that KC was given a C- for draft.

I give them at least a B. Getting Green and Horne and then signing Priest Holmes is great.

Dilfer/Collins/Brister plus Duece would have been a D on my report card.

KC did great trading #12 for what they got.

Packfan
04-23-2001, 10:45 AM
Gaz,

I guess you look at the Chiefs "draft" as the glass being half full. I see it half empty.

With the 12th pick in draft, the Chiefs select a back up QB who was an UFA a few years ago and would probably have been cut before the season started.

With their 2nd round pick, the Chiefs select a 67 year old head coach who was burned out less than two years ago.

Chiefs are desperate. Desperate to stay 9-7.

Gaz
04-23-2001, 10:59 AM
Packfan-

I do not believe Green would have been cut by the Rams.

xoxo~
Gaz
Not troubled by that theory.

Gaz
04-23-2001, 11:10 AM
I guess you look at the Chiefs "draft" as the glass being half full. I see it half empty.

Therein lies the primary difference between us, both this draft and the team in general. I do not mean that as smack or even criticism, just as an observation based on our resume of posts on the BB.

xoxo~
Gaz
Prefers the more optimistic viewpoint, it causes less heartburn and gas.

KC Jones
04-23-2001, 11:19 AM
Originally posted by Packfan
I see it half empty.

My nomination for understatement of the year.

AustinChief
04-23-2001, 12:07 PM
Has anyone brought up this point...

With no 1st or 2nd round picks... this year we don´t have to watch the drama of trying to sign players before the season starts. At least everyone that we have is VERY likely to sign.

--Kyle

(just looking at another positive)

...and I also think Blaylock could be a HUGE pick if the Chiefs decide to actually USE a fast running back.

kcred
04-23-2001, 01:10 PM
You're right Kyle, but what in the world are we to do every morning this July, since we won't be scrambling to get the latest info on our #1. Seriously, the way we drafted, our staff may be content with most of our D, and in reality blame their ineffectiveness on the stooges, KS, and Shaw. I wish we could find a kicker, just for kickoffs, someone who could put it in the end zone every time. Peterson can stay for the placements, but lets get someone like Indianapolis, who can nail it.

Lightning Rod
04-23-2001, 01:44 PM
It is pretty simple.

A. Either Green is the Guy that DV thinks he is. A top flight Starting QB one who can be mentioned in the same breath as Warner and as added bonus has a complete understanding of our new offense.



B. He is someone else’s back up QB that they didn’t need. See Steve Bono,


Or

C. He is someone else’s QB that is pretty good and is in an offense suited to his ability. See Rich Gannon.



If the answer is C we got our moneys worth. If it is C we did not. And if it is (A), we stole him and Carl is still the operator we once thought he was.

Packfan
04-23-2001, 04:52 PM
Gaz,

When your team (Chiefs) hasnt won a playoff game in 8 years, has missed the playoffs in three of the last four years, has to give up high draft picks just to get a journeyman QB and head coach and has had 8 different starting half backs in 8 years, there is really nothing to be excited about, IMO. But thats just me. I know some of you guys get all worked up over a lousy victory over the Raiders. It doesnt matter how the team finishes, just so long as it beats the Raiders.

As far as the Rams cutting Trent Green. Do the math. He is paid like a starter, the Rams had 2 first round pick, wanted Aneas Williams, AND have one of the highest paid starting QBs in football and not to mention real tight with the cap. If there were no takers, Green would have been released. IMO, the Chiefs could have held out and offered a 3rd round pick and the Rams would have eventually taken it. Nobody else seemed interested in Green. The price was way to high (just like Carl said before he caved in again). I think Trent Green is an upgrade to Elvis Grbac, but not worth the 12th pick in the draft. Average QBs like Trent Green are available each and every year as free agents. Thats how St. Louis got him and thats how the Ravens and Chiefs got Grbac. Shame on Carl for mortgaging the future for a player like Green. Some of you wonder why the Chiefs are stuck in mediocrity.

Desperate moves by a desperate General Manager.

DenverChief
04-23-2001, 05:52 PM
"Shame on Carl for mortgaging the future for a player like Green. Some of you wonder why the Chiefs are stuck in mediocrity. "...I'm sorry but I think mortgaging the future would have been signing a Bureline or Dilfer and picking Mcallister (Tomlinson was gone at #5) would have done it in for our future...I mean c'mon we are not willing to suffer thru another year of Grbunk type injuries (bureline) (last year was Grbunks first without)...Dilfer is ala Dave Kreig....should we actually mention anyone else?...I find it abosolutly rediculous that you could say one pick is the entire future...What if Mcallister was a bust or injured all the time or in trouble with the law?...at least with Trent Green we know we are getting solid veteran leadership along with a good standing with law enforcement..yea he has been hurt ONCE in the NFL...but so what I would take those pluses over the many negatives of drafting someone

keg in kc
04-23-2001, 06:00 PM
Well, you have to give credit to peckerfan. No matter what happens he'll find a way to throw in "you haven't won a playoff game in 8 years", he'll find some way to spin it in a negative light and he'll finish by telling us how incompetent Carl Peterson is. That's the pattern he follows, no matter the topic, and he does it to perfection. If we hadn't traded for Green, and had instead signed Dilfer and gotten McAlister in the first, you know as well as I do he'd be on here saying "you haven't won a playoff game in 8 years", he'd be telling us that Carl is an idiot for spending free agent dollars on a loser like Dilfer, telling us all how overrated McAllister was and that we should have drafted someone else and that we'd be mired in mediocrity no matter what move we made.

I swear, I think he has a program where he can just imput a few key terms and then this form letter spits out.

"Let's see, uhh, imput Trent Green, uhm, let's call him a "journeyman QB" this time. Okay 'high draft pick". Yeah, that seems like enough for today.

Whirrr...Whizzzz....pop!

Machine pops out: "When your team (Chiefs) hasnt won a playoff game in 8 years, has missed the playoffs in three of the last four years, has to give up high draft picks just to get a journeyman QB and head coach and has had 8 different starting half backs in 8 years, there is really nothing to be excited about, IMO. But thats just me....."


As for getting Green, if you think the Rams would have released him then I have no qualms with the following statement:

You are a complete and unadulterated idiot.

Mike Martz brought Green to St. Louis from Washington - he loves the guy - and, if that's not enough, don't forget that Kurt Warner is still having problems with a late season concussion.


As for your take on KC overpaying, well I've already stated that you are a complete and unadulterated idiot, so I won't be redundant.

We got a QB who is further along than either Brad Johnson or Rob Johnson, and paid significantly less than either Washington or Buffalo. We got, for all intents and purposes, 3 players for the #12 pick, including the immediate impact of a starting quarterback. That's more valuable to KC at this point than any other single player we could have gotten at that point in the draft, and we got it at a discount.

Otter
04-23-2001, 06:09 PM
Packfan,

Carl has made some dumb moves over the years. I’m not going to get into examples because there is enough of them for all of us to remember. But to his credit, he’s also made some good ones.

What pleasure do you get out of coming over here and pointing them out over and over? Do you think one of us has Carl on speed dial and will inform him of your constant regurgitation of “you’re a team stuck in mediocrity”, “desperate to keep seats filled”, “happy to be 9-7”.

Guess what, we get the picture dood. We understand what your saying.

Most of us are Chief fans no matter what happens.

Get a new gig already man. You sound like a broken freakin’ record!

Otter
04-23-2001, 06:11 PM
Dammit Keg,

You not only said the same thing sooner but alot better as well. :mad:

milkman
04-23-2001, 08:16 PM
Keg,
That response to "peckerfan" is classic. Had me LMAO.
The funniest part about it, is that is is right on the money.

I think I'll have my wife cut and paste, and print it and hang it on my wall.

Gaz
04-24-2001, 07:52 AM
Packfan-

Perhaps the optimist/pessimist dichotomy between us is caused by your apparent inability to look forward. The things you bag on the Chiefs for belong to a different regime. A new order has arisen and we will see what they do with the Chiefs roster, rather than obsessing on the past [8] years.

We did not trade a high pick for Green, we traded that pick for Green, Horne and Blaylock. The QB our new HC and OC wanted, a speedy slot WR and P/KR and a speedy RB. Carl got excellent value for that #12 pick. The only remaining concern is Green's knee, and the Chiefs doctors apparently think it will be okay. I am not happy about Green being unable to practice until June or July, but I simply have to accept that. Carl managed that trade brilliantly, turning a "1st & 3rd, period" into "a 1st and we give you Horne and a 5th Round pick." Even the staunchest Carl basher must concede that Carl played that one perfectly.

The Rams were not going to cut Green. They already paid the roster bonus, his salary is not oppressive and Warner is still mushy from his concussion. You seriously damage your credibility by insisting that the Rams would have cut Green. I do not think you are an idiot, but I do think that your desperation to bash Carl is driving you to make absurd statements.

Not only is the glass half full, but it is filling up even as we speak.

xoxo~
Gaz
Facing forward in his seat, watching the view ahead.

KCTitus
04-24-2001, 08:03 AM
I think everyone is catching on here, regardless of the transaction/draft/whatever, Ken will use it as a reason to bag the team, fans and city.

This is no exception...

If anyone remembers, when Grbac was dropped, Ken bagged the team by stating that Grbac wanted to win that's why he left because KC was stuck in medicority.

Prior to that, Ken stated that Carl would cave in an pay the 10M bonus to Grbac ...'thus insuring mediocrity for years to come'...and Ken would ...'come back and remind everyone he said that'...

Now, KC gets Trent Green an obvious upgrade to what KC has on the current roster and to what KC had in Grbac, and again, we get the same response...medicority.

KC can do nothing right according to Ken, never will, not even if KC in a few years were to put together a SB run. I can guarantee right now, that if that happened in a few years to come, Ken would be bagging on it.

Packfan
04-24-2001, 11:44 AM
If I were some of you guys, I would probably be happy with the Trent Green trade. He will keep the team competitive for a few years, much like Elvis Grbac did. I would like more than a competitive football team. And trading high draft picks for coaches and a backup QB aint going to cut it. Sorry guys, the past history is on my side here. Thats why I remind you of the lack of playoff wins in the last 8 years. What the Chiefs have done hasnt worked. Argue all you want, the facts speak louder than words. Trent Green, and guys like him, are availabe each and every year via free agency. Do we agree on that??? Then why the hell would you give up the 12th pick in a LOADED draft for just an average QB who himself was a UFA a few years ago?? Why not sign Buerline, keep the pick and build for the future? How much different are Buerline and Green?? At least Buerline has played the last two years. Bottom line is that neither one of them takes you to the bowl, but both would keep you competitive.

The Chiefs are a long, long way from competing with the best in the NFL. They need draft picks more than they need anything else. Giving their top two picks for a backup QB and a 67 year old head coach is just another example of mismangement by Carl Peterson.

And yes, these moves help explain why this organization hasnt won a playoff game in the last 8 years.

Otter
04-24-2001, 03:25 PM
Could sombody kick him, the record is skipping again.

KCTitus
04-24-2001, 03:45 PM
First off, this was NOT a loaded draft. You state that as a fact, which it is not. This draft was not deep in QB's and KC needed a QB. Im sure that you will agree that Trent Green was the best available of the bunch and is an upgrade from Grbac and Collins.

There is a major difference between Green and Beuerlein...it's called age.

Oh, and btw, Green played last year a few games while Warner was out.

Packfan
04-24-2001, 10:51 PM
Earth to Titus: The Chiefs have many more holes than QB. Plus, Peterson like free agent, journey men QBs, not college QBs. This draft was loaded with wide receivers and defensive lineman, two areas the Chiefs need to upgrade.

The Chiefs got their version of Steve Buerline. His name is Trent Green. Only Green cost them the #12 pick in the draft.

mlyonsd
04-24-2001, 11:01 PM
Space shuttle to Packfan,

With Grbac and Moon gone that leaves Collins.

Name one other position we needed to fill with a higher priority.

BTW, you better start grooming your own QBOTF. Favre looks like a 90 year old guy on the San Diego beach.