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Cochise
06-18-2007, 12:33 PM
Prius Outdoes Hummer in Environmental Damage
By Chris Demorro
Staff Writer

The Toyota Prius has become the flagship car for those in our society so environmentally conscious that they are willing to spend a premium to show the world how much they care. Unfortunately for them, their ultimate ‘green car’ is the source of some of the worst pollution in North America; it takes more combined energy per Prius to produce than a Hummer.

Before we delve into the seedy underworld of hybrids, you must first understand how a hybrid works. For this, we will use the most popular hybrid on the market, the Toyota Prius.

The Prius is powered by not one, but two engines: a standard 76 horsepower, 1.5-liter gas engine found in most cars today and a battery- powered engine that deals out 67 horsepower and a whooping 295ft/lbs of torque, below 2000 revolutions per minute. Essentially, the Toyota Synergy Drive system, as it is so called, propels the car from a dead stop to up to 30mph. This is where the largest percent of gas is consumed. As any physics major can tell you, it takes more energy to get an object moving than to keep it moving. The battery is recharged through the braking system, as well as when the gasoline engine takes over anywhere north of 30mph. It seems like a great energy efficient and environmentally sound car, right?

You would be right if you went by the old government EPA estimates, which netted the Prius an incredible 60 miles per gallon in the city and 51 miles per gallon on the highway. Unfortunately for Toyota, the government realized how unrealistic their EPA tests were, which consisted of highway speeds limited to 55mph and acceleration of only 3.3 mph per second. The new tests which affect all 2008 models give a much more realistic rating with highway speeds of 80mph and acceleration of 8mph per second. This has dropped the Prius’s EPA down by 25 percent to an average of 45mpg. This now puts the Toyota within spitting distance of cars like the Chevy Aveo, which costs less then half what the Prius costs.

However, if that was the only issue with the Prius, I wouldn’t be writing this article. It gets much worse.

Building a Toyota Prius causes more environmental damage than a Hummer that is on the road for three times longer than a Prius. As already noted, the Prius is partly driven by a battery which contains nickel. The nickel is mined and smelted at a plant in Sudbury, Ontario. This plant has caused so much environmental damage to the surrounding environment that NASA has used the ‘dead zone’ around the plant to test moon rovers. The area around the plant is devoid of any life for miles.

The plant is the source of all the nickel found in a Prius’ battery and Toyota purchases 1,000 tons annually. Dubbed the Superstack, the plague-factory has spread sulfur dioxide across northern Ontario, becoming every environmentalist’s nightmare.

“The acid rain around Sudbury was so bad it destroyed all the plants and the soil slid down off the hillside,” said Canadian Greenpeace energy-coordinator David Martin during an interview with Mail, a British-based newspaper.

All of this would be bad enough in and of itself; however, the journey to make a hybrid doesn’t end there. The nickel produced by this disastrous plant is shipped via massive container ship to the largest nickel refinery in Europe. From there, the nickel hops over to China to produce ‘nickel foam.’ From there, it goes to Japan. Finally, the completed batteries are shipped to the United States, finalizing the around-the-world trip required to produce a single Prius battery. Are these not sounding less and less like environmentally sound cars and more like a farce?

Wait, I haven’t even got to the best part yet.

When you pool together all the combined energy it takes to drive and build a Toyota Prius, the flagship car of energy fanatics, it takes almost 50 percent more energy than a Hummer - the Prius’s arch nemesis.

Through a study by CNW Marketing called “Dust to Dust,” the total combined energy is taken from all the electrical, fuel, transportation, materials (metal, plastic, etc) and hundreds of other factors over the expected lifetime of a vehicle. The Prius costs an average of $3.25 per mile driven over a lifetime of 100,000 miles - the expected lifespan of the Hybrid.

The Hummer, on the other hand, costs a more fiscal $1.95 per mile to put on the road over an expected lifetime of 300,000 miles. That means the Hummer will last three times longer than a Prius and use less combined energy doing it.

So, if you are really an environmentalist - ditch the Prius. Instead, buy one of the most economical cars available - a Toyota Scion xB. The Scion only costs a paltry $0.48 per mile to put on the road. If you are still obsessed over gas mileage - buy a Chevy Aveo and fix that lead foot.

One last fun fact for you: it takes five years to offset the premium price of a Prius. Meaning, you have to wait 60 months to save any money over a non-hybrid car because of lower gas expenses.

http://clubs.ccsu.edu/Recorder/editorial/print_item.asp?NewsID=188

StcChief
06-18-2007, 12:41 PM
Toyota only lasting 100K miles....that's bad. 5 year ROI.
so most 10-15K /year drivers . 6 years the last year being the savings kick in year.

I'm still not buying the 100K car. more like 200-250K if you do the maintenance.

KCChiefsMan
06-18-2007, 12:44 PM
I intend to wait and buy a 09 camaro, one that is equipped with a bunch of extra shit to make it awesome. I don't know too much about cars, obviously but I want a fun fast car with a standard transmission. My buddy is researching for me and works in that industry so he'll know what I should get.

Delano
06-18-2007, 12:46 PM
I intend to wait and buy a 09 camaro, one that is equipped with a bunch of extra shit to make it awesome. I don't know too much about cars, obviously but I want a fun fast car with a standard transmission. My buddy is researching for me and works in that industry so he'll know what I should get.

You always come off as a clueless tool. Your post is consistent with your body of work here on the planet.

rageeumr
06-18-2007, 12:49 PM
I'm still not buying the 100K car. more like 200-250K if you do the maintenance.

I'm not buying the 300,000 mile Hummer.

HemiEd
06-18-2007, 12:53 PM
Wow, great article. One of those cars, was almost the cause of a serious accident on my drive back from Dallas last week. The guy was going about 30 mph on the Kansas Turnpike, probably operating on electric only. Once the 18 wheeler, i was passing, realized he was about to make the Prius become a stain on his bumper, he about took me out avoiding him.
The Prius driver was just smiling as he pulled over on the shoulder, still driving below the minimum speed limit.

Redrum_69
06-18-2007, 12:56 PM
Wow, great article. One of those cars, was almost the cause of a serious accident on my drive back from Dallas last week. The guy was going about 30 mph on the Kansas Turnpike, probably operating on electric only. Once the 18 wheeler, i was passing, realized he was about to make the Prius become a stain on his bumper, he about took me out avoiding him.
The Prius driver was just smiling as he pulled over on the shoulder, still driving below the minimum speed limit.


Was he asian? - Phobia

HemiEd
06-18-2007, 12:58 PM
Was he asian? - Phobia
ROFL
Actually, he looked like a guy that should have been wearing a smoking jacket. Silver hair and beard, but it all happened pretty quick.

KCChiefsMan
06-18-2007, 01:00 PM
You always come off as a clueless tool. Your post is consistent with your body of work here on the planet.

classless? wtf are you talking about? it's a car that I have my eye on, whats classless about that...d-bag

htismaqe
06-18-2007, 01:04 PM
So, if you are really an environmentalist - ditch the Prius. Instead, buy one of the most economical cars available - a Toyota Scion xB. The Scion only costs a paltry $0.48 per mile to put on the road. If you are still obsessed over gas mileage - buy a Chevy Aveo and fix that lead foot.

This is what I did.

According to Yahoo Autos, my car costs about 40 cents per mile to own.

StcChief
06-18-2007, 01:11 PM
I'm not buying the 300,000 mile Hummer.
Take care of the big V8. Run synthetic oil etc. Engine would last.

the body, electrical, tranny, etc ????

ChiefsfaninPA
06-18-2007, 01:11 PM
classless? wtf are you talking about? it's a car that I have my eye on, whats classless about that...d-bag


He said clueless moron. So clueless you can't even distinguish what the man is telling you.

pikesome
06-18-2007, 01:12 PM
So, if you are really an environmentalist - ditch the Prius. Instead, buy one of the most economical cars available - a Toyota Scion xB. The Scion only costs a paltry $0.48 per mile to put on the road. If you are still obsessed over gas mileage - buy a Chevy Aveo and fix that lead foot.


No celebrity is going to be caught in a Scion or a Aveo.

nychief
06-18-2007, 01:13 PM
a writer for central conn. state university newspaper? give me break.

Redrum_69
06-18-2007, 01:13 PM
According to Yahoo Autos, my car costs about 40 cents per mile to own.


With that rationale...your mom costs twice that much to ride and everytime I put my pedal to her metal she'll squeal even more

pikesome
06-18-2007, 01:15 PM
Take care of the big V8. Run synthetic oil etc. Engine would last.

the body, electrical, tranny, etc ????

I don't know about the 300K Hummer but my dad who took pretty good, but not immaculate, care of his Bonneville put something like 250K before it developed an engine problem that was more expensive to fix than the car was worth.

pikesome
06-18-2007, 01:16 PM
a writer for central conn. state university newspaper? give me break.

Is his article failing in logic or facts?

FAX
06-18-2007, 01:30 PM
Hmmm. I often wondered about the environmental impact of manufacturing these complex vehicles.

I've also wondered how much Hollywood contributes to pollution by virtue of all the cars, houses, boats, spaceships, and horses they explode.

FAX

DaFace
06-18-2007, 01:44 PM
I'm not a big fan of hybrids myself, but it looks like this article is pretty suspect. Here are a couple posts I dug off of another forum about it:

This article is based on some fairly suspect research by CNW Marketing, an automotive market research firm.
http://www.appropedia.org/Hybrid_vehicles

The statement "Building a Toyota Prius causes more environmental damage than a Hummer that is on the road for three times longer than a Prius" makes it sound like the Prius is three times worse than an Hummer. When in fact this statement is based on the fact that the production costs assumed a Hummer lasts 300,000 miles while a Prius only lasts 100,000 miles.

Also the CNW research attempted to total dollar cost of production rather than carbon, or energy cost of production. Another reason the Hummer got a lower cost was because it was developed at GM it was able to use the military design to help them make the commercial version, the Prius was made privately, and is newer so the design costs appear larger than those for the Hummer.

This concept that Priuses are worse for the environment than Hummers is becoming an urban myth.


The original article is an opinion piece (i.e., no fact-checking) for a college newspaper that publishes wild claims in a pathetic attempt to draw attention to itself. In February, The Recorder published "Rape only hurts if you fight it" and now in March, "Prius outdoes hummer." This newspaper and this article are garbage.

1. Regarding new EPA mileage estimates, Demorro claims the Chevy Aveo's mileage puts it within "spitting distance" of the Prius. The new EPA combined mileage put the Chevy Aveo at 26 mpg, the Toyota Prius at 46 mpg. So I guess 20 miles more per gallon is "spitting distance."

2. The "Dust-to-dust" study is from a marketing firm, not a science journal. It arrives at an artificially high cost for the Prius by assigning it an arbitrary lifespan of 100k miles, and a Hummer 300k miles. There's Prius being used as cabs that have 200k on them now. (http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/8839690/)

And, insofar as a car lasting, what car do you expect to repair less? A Toyota Prius or a GM Hummer? You can check Consumer Reports for the answer to that one. A good analysis of the flaws in dust-to-dust is available at TrueDelta. (http://www.truedelta.com/blog/?p=48)

KCChiefsMan
06-18-2007, 01:47 PM
He said clueless moron. So clueless you can't even distinguish what the man is telling you.

everybody is quick to lash out at somebody these days

Vegas_Dave
06-18-2007, 02:19 PM
GREAT Article.

GoChiefs, take note.

Pitt Gorilla
06-18-2007, 02:22 PM
Is his article failing in logic or facts?Probably.

TinyEvel
06-18-2007, 02:58 PM
This article is full of BS.

Did it take into account the refining/transportation costs of the extra fuel the Hummer would use over the 300K miles? No.

The fact that it's an opinion piece tells you right there. It's a journalist making a stretch to raise some controversial stink and get his name out there. I bet 50 bucks the author is Googling himself right now.

pikesome
06-18-2007, 03:35 PM
Probably.

Uh, that was a solicitation for examples.

HemiEd
06-18-2007, 05:10 PM
This article is full of BS.

Did it take into account the refining/transportation costs of the extra fuel the Hummer would use over the 300K miles? No.

The fact that it's an opinion piece tells you right there. It's a journalist making a stretch to raise some controversial stink and get his name out there. I bet 50 bucks the author is Googling himself right now.

The article points out some valid points, you would have to be an idiot not to recognize them. I was unaware of the nickel plant environment, were you?
How about the fact that the tree huggers made us quit using lead/acid batteries! I am guessing those plants didn't turn the environment into the mess the Nickel plant has caused!

****ing liberal mini van driving soccermoms!

blueballs
06-18-2007, 05:19 PM
repair/parts costs on a hybrid has to be sky high
the Hummer probably ain't cheap either

Frazod
06-18-2007, 05:51 PM
I wonder how many millions of gallons of fuel oil are wasted in goddamn tankers shipping stuff like this all over the world. What an inefficient waste. Why don't they build the damn plants near the mine? Would that make too much sense? Employ too many Americans or Canadians that might actually want to get paid a decent wage or weekends off? F#cking scumbags.

Sort of like Menu Foods importing wheat products to KANSAS from China. I still can't wrap my mind around that one.

:shake:

rad
06-18-2007, 06:23 PM
I wonder how many millions of gallons of fuel oil are wasted in goddamn tankers shipping stuff like this all over the world. What an inefficient waste. Why don't they build the damn plants near the mine? Would that make too much sense? Employ too many Americans or Canadians that might actually want to get paid a decent wage or weekends off? F#cking scumbags.

Sort of like Menu Foods importing wheat products to KANSAS from China. I still can't wrap my mind around that one.

:shake:

Good post. I was going to say the same thing.

Except for the Menu Foods part. I don't know what that is, except that it's ****ed up.

dtebbe
06-18-2007, 07:12 PM
I wonder how many millions of gallons of fuel oil are wasted in goddamn tankers shipping stuff like this all over the world. What an inefficient waste. Why don't they build the damn plants near the mine? Would that make too much sense? Employ too many Americans or Canadians that might actually want to get paid a decent wage or weekends off? F#cking scumbags.

:shake:

Because the Union wages that would surely come with such a plant would make the Prius cost more like $60k and no one would buy them.

See, the simple fact is that although fuel oil may be expensive, it does not require lifetime medical benefits....

DT

chagrin
06-19-2007, 05:49 AM
Good post. I was going to say the same thing.

Except for the Menu Foods part. I don't know what that is, except that it's ****ed up.

They inported "bad" wheat porducts laden cat and dog food gravy/gel like substance and caused the death and sickness of thousands of naimals.

bkkcoh
06-19-2007, 06:10 AM
repair/parts costs on a hybrid has to be sky high
the Hummer probably ain't cheap either


None of them are cheap to work on any more and you typically have to go some where to have them worked on.....

mikey23545
06-19-2007, 07:09 AM
Almost all liberals have a vanishingly small comprehension of science or engineering. This is another example of an end user assuming the product they are using just magically dropped out of the sky for them. As long as the car they drive seems clean, they are oblivious to the myriad steps and processes that delivered that product to their door.

And the ones who do understand do everything they can to hide the truth because after all, it's not really environmental concern that drives their agenda.

'Hamas' Jenkins
06-19-2007, 07:25 AM
Almost all liberals have a vanishingly small comprehension of science.

Yeah, it really pissed me off when those lgoddamned liberal bastards wanted to ban the teaching of evolution in schools


F*ckers :shake:

Radar Chief
06-19-2007, 07:44 AM
I'm still not buying the 100K car. more like 200-250K if you do the maintenance.

I'm not buying the 300,000 mile Hummer.

The “100K” is the average service life for a typical 4 stoke IC engine. The “300K” is the average service life for an oil burner, Diesel.
That’s where those numbers come from.

Radar Chief
06-19-2007, 07:54 AM
repair/parts costs on a hybrid has to be sky high
the Hummer probably ain't cheap either

The typical oil burner has a higher maintenance per mile-traveled cost than the typical 4 stoke IC engine. The problem with the Prius is the bank of batteries it uses to run the electric motor and the complexity of the drive train. Once that bank of batteries goes bad, and it will that’s what batteries do, Prius owners are looking at a huge repair/replacement bill.

htismaqe
06-19-2007, 07:55 AM
Sort of like Menu Foods importing wheat products to KANSAS from China. I still can't wrap my mind around that one.

:shake:

That Kansas folks didn't feel right about spiking it with poision, so they sent it to China for the dirty work...

'Hamas' Jenkins
06-19-2007, 07:57 AM
The typical oil burner has a higher maintenance per mile-traveled cost than the typical 4 stoke IC engine. The problem with the Prius is the bank of batteries it uses to run the electric motor and the complexity of the drive train. Once that bank of batteries goes bad, and it will that’s what batteries do, Prius owners are looking at a huge repair/replacement bill.

The thing that would dissuade me from buying a hybrid is what would happen if you were in an accident and the battery bank ruptured. Then, not only do you have the potential for a regular fire, but a chemical spill as well.

Radar Chief
06-19-2007, 08:01 AM
The thing that would dissuade me from buying a hybrid is what would happen if you were in an accident and the battery bank ruptured. Then, not only do you have the potential for a regular fire, but a chemical spill as well.

That’s a reasonable fear. I don’t know what safety precautions have been employed to keep that from happening.

Cochise
06-19-2007, 08:06 AM
The “100K” is the average service life for a typical 4 stoke IC engine. The “300K” is the average service life for an oil burner, Diesel.
That’s where those numbers come from.

Heck, I'd probably be 3/4 of the way through the Prius' useful life before I even got to the 5 year point where I had recouped the premium price on it through the gas savings.

I don't know if I would buy anything that only lasts 100k miles... that's why people didn't want to buy domestic cars for a long time.

'Hamas' Jenkins
06-19-2007, 08:08 AM
That’s a reasonable fear. I don’t know what safety precautions have been employed to keep that from happening.

I worked w/ two firefighters in my PT job at college. At that time, there weren't really any precautions they could take, other than to call in HAZMAT. But if you are in a smaller town, you're SOL on that front.

Radar Chief
06-19-2007, 08:17 AM
I don't know if I would buy anything that only lasts 100k miles... that's why people didn't want to buy domestic cars for a long time.

It used to be pretty typical that any vehicle with 100K miles needed engine work. Now, its not at all uncommon to find vehicles with 100K on the clock that still have lots of service life left to them.

Radar Chief
06-19-2007, 08:21 AM
I worked w/ two firefighters in my PT job at college. At that time, there weren't really any precautions they could take, other than to call in HAZMAT. But if you are in a smaller town, you're SOL on that front.

Sounds reasonable, but I was thinking more from the manufacturers engineering aspect. Where the bank of batteries are placed, proximity to “crumple zones” and use of a blast shield to protect occupants, would affect the type of accident you’re talking about.

Stewie
06-19-2007, 08:23 AM
I haven't read the whole thread and maybe it has been mentioned, but I thought the 100K mile mark was when the battery needed to be replace.

Radar Chief
06-19-2007, 08:34 AM
I haven't read the whole thread and maybe it has been mentioned, but I thought the 100K mile mark was when the battery needed to be replace.

I don’t know when they typically need replacement, but it is a big issue with Prius owners.
The Mrs. briefly considered trading in her Liberty for a Prius, snow on the ground through the majority of last winter changed her mind, so I read service bulletins and chatter from Prius owners on a BB and that was what I found to be the biggest complaint, having to replace the batteries.

'Hamas' Jenkins
06-19-2007, 08:40 AM
Sounds reasonable, but I was thinking more from the manufacturers engineering aspect. Where the bank of batteries are placed, proximity to “crumple zones” and use of a blast shield to protect occupants, would affect the type of accident you’re talking about.

Solution:

Make the whole car out of the black box.

Reerun_KC
06-19-2007, 08:45 AM
I don't know if I would buy anything that only lasts 100k miles... that's why people didn't want to buy domestic cars for a long time.


I know what you are saying, my stupid 1999 surburban has 197K on it and still running strong...

She will see 300K + if not more....

Radar Chief
06-19-2007, 09:00 AM
Solution:

Make the whole car out of the black box.

:LOL: Long story short, problem solved. :thumb:

Spicy McHaggis
06-19-2007, 11:38 AM
I intend to wait and buy a 09 camaro, one that is equipped with a bunch of extra shit to make it awesome. I don't know too much about cars, obviously but I want a fun fast car with a standard transmission.

When you buy your car, I want you to walk into a dealership and repeat exactly what you have typed above to the salesman.

rad
06-19-2007, 06:48 PM
When you buy your car, I want you to walk into a dealership backwards with your pants down and repeat exactly what you have typed above to the salesman.



FYP

tmax63
06-19-2007, 08:17 PM
So it sounds like they cost about the same to drive if you bump up the mileage life of the Prius to something more - say 150,000. I definately want to drive a chemical spill small car deathtrap waiting to happen instead of a Hummer that you'd probably live thru a wreck in (esp. if you hit a Prius) for the same total cost per mile.

KCChiefsMan
06-19-2007, 08:28 PM
When you buy your car, I want you to walk into a dealership and repeat exactly what you have typed above to the salesman.

haha...

well the only reason why I said that was because I've been looking into which car I want to buy in the next 6 months or so, Prius was my first choice then I did a little research and I'm not so sure now. Then I thought of the camaro that should be coming out next year....and I was a little off topic with the thread