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Jenson71
06-26-2007, 09:55 AM
Do you consider it a contradiction that a man who kills his girlfriend and her unborn daughter, can be charged with two counts of murder?

It seems to me it is. I don't understand how this can be considered murder, but abortion is considered just an operation!

pikesome
06-26-2007, 10:00 AM
Do you consider it a contradiction that a man who kills his girlfriend and her unborn daughter, can be charged with two counts of murder?

It seems to me it is. I don't understand how this can be considered murder, but abortion is considered just an operation!

There was a case, in Wisconsin maybe, where NOW filed briefs against convicting a man who killed his GF and unborn son. I'll do some looking and see if I can dig the story up.

On Edit:

I'm having trouble finding the case I was thinking of. I'm pretty sure I didn't imagine it but...

BucEyedPea
06-26-2007, 10:23 AM
I don't keep up with these types cases, such as the Peterson one....but wasn't Peterson convicted of double homicide or murder????????

jAZ
06-26-2007, 11:00 AM
This is indeed part of the ban-abortion logic. Get laws put into place that make it 2 crimes to kill a pregnant woman.

It's the "slippery slope" strategy.

Jenson71
06-26-2007, 11:33 AM
This is indeed part of the ban-abortion logic. Get laws put into place that make it 2 crimes to kill a pregnant woman.

It's the "slippery slope" strategy.

So you believe he should only be charged for one murder?

pikesome
06-26-2007, 11:33 AM
This is indeed part of the ban-abortion logic. Get laws put into place that make it 2 crimes to kill a pregnant woman.

It's the "slippery slope" strategy.

I did find mention of laws designed to increase the penalties for harming pregnant women over not-pregnant ones.

Dave Lane
06-26-2007, 11:46 AM
I believe the ruling is that IF the fetus would be viable outside of the womb then indeed it is 2 murders.

Dave

Taco John
06-26-2007, 01:02 PM
Personally, I'm ok with him being charged, because there is establishable intention of this woman to carry the baby to full term and give birth to it.

I think the intention of the mother should apply in these cases to maintain consistency with my position that a woman should be given a right to choose, even if I personally believe that one of those choices is abhorrent and will scar them for life.

bkkcoh
06-26-2007, 02:19 PM
Personally, I'm ok with him being charged, because there is establishable intention of this woman to carry the baby to full term and give birth to it.

I think the intention of the mother should apply in these cases to maintain consistency with my position that a woman should be given a right to choose, even if I personally believe that one of those choices is abhorrent and will scar them for life.


But if she suddenly had a change of mind about the birth of her daughter and then he killed her and the fetus, it would have been ok?


I believe the ruling is that IF the fetus would be viable outside of the womb then indeed it is 2 murders.

Dave

But Partial brith abortion is ok, because it is a medical procedure and the act of this wasn't....

to me that seems like a terrible double standard.


I did find mention of laws designed to increase the penalties for harming pregnant women over not-pregnant ones.

Like hate crime are worse by nature because of white vs black, black vs jew, gay vs straight. A crime is a crime is a crime. Because the pers are something and the victims are something else doesnt mean that it is worse because of it.

Taco John
06-26-2007, 02:29 PM
But if she suddenly had a change of mind about the birth of her daughter and then he killed her and the fetus, it would have been ok?


"Ok" is a relative word.


But Partial brith abortion is ok, because it is a medical procedure and the act of this wasn't....


I think partial birth abortion is rightfully banned. Do you know of any states that still practice this? I don't.

Stewie
06-26-2007, 02:38 PM
I believe the ruling is that IF the fetus would be viable outside of the womb then indeed it is 2 murders.

Dave

Yep. That's the Ohio law.

irishjayhawk
06-26-2007, 02:43 PM
Partial birth - I always thought this was rightfully banned because this seems a bit too late to be having a change of mind.

Yes, it's a double standard and there are plenty of double standards in our legal system. Sadly, they won't do anything about them.

BucEyedPea
06-26-2007, 03:20 PM
Yes, it's a double standard and there are plenty of double standards in our legal system. Sadly, they won't do anything about them.
Only true if one relies on two-valued logic, imo.

Pitt Gorilla
06-26-2007, 03:24 PM
But Partial brith abortion is ok, because it is a medical procedure and the act of this wasn't.... Where is partial birth abortion "ok?"

bkkcoh
06-26-2007, 03:27 PM
Where is partial birth abortion "ok?"

The lawmakers (mainly dems) don't want to make it illegal, so therefore in the eyes of the law it is ok.

I personally think it is a very barbaric act and shouldn't be performed. But I am a RRNJ......

patteeu
06-26-2007, 03:29 PM
I think partial birth abortion is rightfully banned. Do you know of any states that still practice this? I don't.

I'm pretty sure you're right about this. However, based on the context, I suspect that bkkcoh was really talking about "late term abortion" (which has become confused with pba due to the fact that that technique was previously pretty common in lta's).

Late term abortion remains legal in Kansas, if not in other states. Bill O'Reilly's been picking this up as a cause lately.

Pitt Gorilla
06-26-2007, 03:33 PM
The lawmakers (mainly dems) don't want to make it illegal, so therefore in the eyes of the law it is ok.

I personally think it is a very barbaric act and shouldn't be performed. But I am a RRNJ......
Umm, exactly where in the US are partial-birth abortions legal? Seriously.

bkkcoh
06-26-2007, 03:34 PM
I think partial birth abortion is rightfully banned. Do you know of any states that still practice this? I don't.

Umm, exactly where in the US are partial-birth abortions legal? Seriously.



I forgot that was one of the good things our president was able to accomplish. :clap:

Pitt Gorilla
06-26-2007, 03:40 PM
I forgot that was one of the good things our president was able to accomplish. :clap:Actually, I've heard several RRWNJs whine about them being legal when they actually aren't. I don't know if they're really that uninformed or if they feel that misrepresenting the issue to other idiots will help them with their cause.

patteeu
06-26-2007, 03:54 PM
FYI

Partial Birth Abortion: A technique that has been banned in US. When it was in use it was frequently the technique of choice in Late Term Abortions.

Late Term Abortion: An abortion taking place late in the pregnancy up to the moment before birth. Still legal in at least one jurisdiction.

Taco John
06-26-2007, 06:37 PM
The lawmakers (mainly dems) don't want to make it illegal, so therefore in the eyes of the law it is ok.

I personally think it is a very barbaric act and shouldn't be performed. But I am a RRNJ......



I don't think you know much about current events.

mlyonsd
06-26-2007, 07:25 PM
Personally, I'm ok with him being charged, because there is establishable intention of this woman to carry the baby to full term and give birth to it.



I think this is the correct way of looking at it. If the mother intended to give birth it should be considered a double murder.

Logical
06-26-2007, 07:58 PM
Do you consider it a contradiction that a man who kills his girlfriend and her unborn daughter, can be charged with two counts of murder?

It seems to me it is. I don't understand how this can be considered murder, but abortion is considered just an operation!

It is a contradiction, life is filled with contradictions.

WoodDraw
06-26-2007, 09:21 PM
I've never liked the politicalization of crimes and sentencing guidelines, but it happens all the time. Why is it a crime for everyone other than the mother to kill a fetus? Because abortion requires a constitutional amendment to overturn while the other requires only a majority vote. I'm not sure if it's ever been challenged in court, probably because once your convicted for one violent murder that second one doesn't matter much. It's all politics.

ChiefaRoo
06-26-2007, 09:30 PM
It is a contradiction, life is filled with contradictions.

Yeah, life is all just shades of gray isn't it logical? Why worry about things like right and wrong when it's easier to just call it a contradiction and just move on merrily down the road oblivous to the carnage and death.

Logical
06-26-2007, 10:17 PM
Yeah, life is all just shades of gray isn't it logical? Why worry about things like right and wrong when it's easier to just call it a contradiction and just move on merrily down the road oblivous to the carnage and death.

Wow you and Mel Gibson will change the world.

Jenson71
06-26-2007, 10:21 PM
Wow you and Mel Gibson will change the world.

So we need to just accept this contradiction, but when the Supreme Court makes a decision we don't agree with concerning supposed student rights, it makes more sense to complain?

WoodDraw
06-26-2007, 10:27 PM
I don't understand the argument here. Yes they contradict each other, but that doesn't make one correct. All it does is show the devisiveness of the issue. The original post could be turned around to represent the opposite view. By all means stand for what you believe in, but this doesn't advance either view much,

Logical
06-26-2007, 10:32 PM
So we need to just accept this contradiction, but when the Supreme Court makes a decision we don't agree with concerning supposed student rights, it makes more sense to complain?It is your right to complain about abortion, complain all you want I will listen. I am good at listening.

By the way you complaining and my complaining have the same effect, none. I realize that, I complain because it makes my views known. You should do the same.

Jenson71
06-26-2007, 10:44 PM
I don't understand the argument here. Yes they contradict each other, but that doesn't make one correct. All it does is show the devisiveness of the issue. The original post could be turned around to represent the opposite view. By all means stand for what you believe in, but this doesn't advance either view much,

I just wanted to know why this particular unborn child's life matters, while millions of others don't. My understanding is that some think this unborn children are just a group of cells that can be terminated or not depending on somebody's feelings, economic status, position in life.

Jenson71
06-26-2007, 10:46 PM
It is your right to complain about abortion, complain all you want I will listen. I am good at listening.

By the way you complaining and my complaining have the same effect, none. I realize that, I complain because it makes my views known. You should do the same.

It's just not right. My position is that this man should be charged for both murders. And abortion is murder too!

Logical
06-26-2007, 10:46 PM
I just wanted to know why this particular unborn child's life matters, while millions of others don't. My understanding is that some think this unborn children are just a group of cells that can be terminated or not depending on somebody's feelings, economic status, position in life.

If it was up to me and it is not, there would have been only one murder charge. Just so you know my position.

Pitt Gorilla
06-26-2007, 10:51 PM
It is a contradiction, life is filled with contradictions.
It's a paradox, full of contradictions
How I got from there to here, it defies all logical explanation...

WoodDraw
06-26-2007, 11:05 PM
I just wanted to know why this particular unborn child's life matters, while millions of others don't. My understanding is that some think this unborn children are just a group of cells that can be terminated or not depending on somebody's feelings, economic status, position in life.

Well that's a loaded question if I've ever seen one. Legally, they are completely separate issues as most lawyers will tell you. Morally, that's up to each person to deside. Something doesn't have to be criminal to be immoral any more than being legal makes something moral.

Jenson71
06-26-2007, 11:11 PM
Well that's a loaded question if I've ever seen one. Legally, they are completely separate issues as most lawyers will tell you. Morally, that's up to each person to deside. Something doesn't have to be criminal to be immoral any more than being legal makes something moral.

I think most anti-abortionists which sees this as a loaded excuse if they ever saw one.

I'm trying to be difficult for arguments sake. I completely do feel that it's not really two separate issues, it's dealing with the life of an unborn child.

WoodDraw
06-26-2007, 11:57 PM
I think most anti-abortionists which sees this as a loaded excuse if they ever saw one.

I'm trying to be difficult for arguments sake. I completely do feel that it's not really two separate issues, it's dealing with the life of an unborn child.

I'm not sure what a loaded excuse is, or how my answer would qualify. My 'excuse' may be weak, but intentionally so. The question here is straight forward - either you believe life starts with conception or you don't. I don't personally care too much. Both sides are full of moral grandstanding and politcal nonsense. It's considered a victory to charge a murderer for two murders instead of one? One step closer to solving our society's problems. I'd care more if both sides weren't so obsessed and hypocritical with their views. My 'excuse' wasn't an excuse for abortion. Probably closer to the opposite, in fact. I just dislike the use of legal issues as the crux of resistance. Will outlawing abortion really change everything? That's a weak victory.

ChiefaRoo
06-27-2007, 01:00 AM
Wow you and Mel Gibson will change the world.

WTF? I knew you were slow but what are you talking about?

Logical
06-27-2007, 01:12 AM
WTF? I knew you were slow but what are you talking about?

You and Mel, talking massive carnage and death.

Taco John
06-27-2007, 01:24 AM
Despite being personally pro-life, the main reason that I don't get too up in arms about the abortion debate is because I believe that it's a crime that comes packaged with its own life sentance for the woman who goes through with it. There's no justice system in the world that is going to punish that woman more than her own psyche.

ClevelandBronco
06-27-2007, 02:54 AM
Despite being personally pro-life, the main reason that I don't get too up in arms about the abortion debate is because I believe that it's a crime that comes packaged with its own life sentance for the woman who goes through with it. There's no justice system in the world that is going to punish that woman more than her own psyche.

I wish the decision was as heavy a weight as we'd like to think.

bkkcoh
06-27-2007, 06:00 AM
I don't think you know much about current events.


Geesh Taco, sorry I haven't taken time to watch the depressing version of the nightly news in the evening. I don't have time to surf the entire web either.

I guess people don't have the oppurtunity to forget something that happened 4+ years ago......


I certainly hope you haven't ever forgotten anything.




:p