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Carlota69
07-01-2007, 02:26 PM
Which Snub disgusts you the most?

Mine is Orlando Cabrera--SS--LA Angels.

Not only is he not going to start the AS Game, but he may not even be there. His numbers at the plate are equal if not better than Jeters'.

OC--Avg...338 5 HR OBP .835 RBI 48
Jeter Avg...335 5 HR OBP .408 RBI 38

Fielding

OC --.998 4 errors (#1 in the league)

Jeter--.966 12 errors

I'm so irritated by the voting process and all these talking heads saying that Jeter should be the starter... :shake:

BigMeatballDave
07-01-2007, 02:27 PM
****ing popularity contests!

CoMoChief
07-01-2007, 02:27 PM
Every all star game in virtually any sport is a popularity contest.

chagrin
07-01-2007, 02:32 PM
Good call on the stats, Carlota - When was the last year Jeter actually deserved his spot I wonder?

Carlota69
07-01-2007, 02:36 PM
Good call on the stats, Carlota - When was the last year Jeter actually deserved his spot I wonder?

Looks like 2002 was his last year of "greatness"...I guess people could argue 2003--but this year--he's pretty bad in the field and decent at the plate, but certainly not All-Star worthy.

bdeg
07-01-2007, 02:40 PM
Cabrera's OBP seems a little off...

*it's 379

Carlota69
07-01-2007, 02:43 PM
Cabrera's OBP seems a little off...

*it's 379

Your right...The Angels Gameday stats are Dyslexic...380 OBP--

Valiant
07-01-2007, 03:26 PM
Thats why I think fans and sports announcers should not be able to vote period.. They are biased and ignorant most of the time.. Most of the East/West Coast bias never even looks the other way let alone the Midwest..


It should basically go over who has the best stats period for offensive players.. Defense gets a little more leeway (say for pitchers who don't get wins because their offense sucks)

HolmeZz
07-01-2007, 03:34 PM
Guillen should be starting at short.

OnTheWarpath58
07-01-2007, 03:38 PM
Guillen should be starting at short.

Agreed.

Then again, I quit watching the ASG when it began determining HFA for the World Series.

If fans are voting, it should be an exhibition, nothing more.

If MLB wants some meaning behind it, the Managers of each league should have 100% power building a roster.

Fruit Ninja
07-01-2007, 04:13 PM
Jeter is a good player, but he will just get in from here on out on popularity. There are younger players that sure deserve to go thats for sure. It really sucks that all-star/probowl games are like that. I understand why though.

POND_OF_RED
07-01-2007, 04:17 PM
Aramis Ramirez was fifth in votes by a long shot at 3rd base even though he has better numbers than David Wright who looks like he is going to walk away with the starting spot.
Ramirez: 15 HR 47RBI .306 avg .354 OBP .566 SLG
Wright: 14HR 44RBI .288 avg .378 OBP .505 SLG
It should also be noted that he has played 17 less games as well or else Wright would't even be close to the RBI and HR totals.
I do not however think Ramirez is being snubbed completely...just being snubbed by the wrong guy. Miquel Cabrera has 57RBI 17HR and a .328 avg.
Also how is Rolen even on the list? Something about this needs to be fixed. I do believe the west conferences have a lot of players miss for the fact that there games are on too late for a lot of fans to even care about if your favorite team isn't in those conferences. I never pay attention to the west coast unless a team from the central divisions are playing out there.

KevB
07-01-2007, 04:21 PM
Aramis Ramirez was fifth in votes by a long shot at 3rd base even though he has better numbers than David Wright who looks like he is going to walk away with the starting spot.
Ramirez: 15 HR 47RBI .306 avg .354 OBP .566 SLG
Wright: 14HR 44RBI .288 avg .378 OBP .505 SLG
It should also be noted that he has played 17 less games as well or else Wright would't even be close to the RBI and HR totals.
I do not however think Ramirez is being snubbed completely...just being snubbed by the wrong guy. Miquel Cabrera has 57RBI 17HR and a .328 avg.
Also how is Rolen even on the list? Something about this needs to be fixed. I do believe the west conferences have a lot of players miss for the fact that there games are on too late for a lot of fans to even care about if your favorite team isn't in those conferences. I never pay attention to the west coast unless a team from the central divisions are playing out there.

Wright also has 17 SBs. He plays for a top National League team. I actually think the timing of Aramis' injury hurt him....out of sight, out of mind.

Cochise
07-01-2007, 04:31 PM
Looks like 2002 was his last year of "greatness"...I guess people could argue 2003--but this year--he's pretty bad in the field and decent at the plate, but certainly not All-Star worthy.

Jeter is bad in the field? He won the gold glove at shortstop each of the last 3 seasons.

POND_OF_RED
07-01-2007, 04:33 PM
Wright also has 17 SBs. He plays for a top National League team. I actually think the timing of Aramis' injury hurt him....out of sight, out of mind.
I believe Wright is a good player don't get me wrong but he seemed to walk away with the votes all year although he has the 3rd best numbers of 3B. Being on a top NL team might help but his votes didn't fall much when they went on the dreadful start of June.

alnorth
07-01-2007, 04:36 PM
Jeter is bad in the field? He won the gold glove at shortstop each of the last 3 seasons.

Which speaks to the (lack of) intelligence for the gold glove voters.

Statistically, Derek Jeter is one of the *WORST* everyday defensive shortstops in modern baseball history, near dead-last on most of the fielding statistics that have been developed in recent years.

Jeter has fewer errors than many in most years because his range sucks so bad, that he doesnt get to hardly anything that an average shortstop should get to. He figuratively stands still as a statue, and cleanly fields stuff hit right at him.

Cochise
07-01-2007, 04:38 PM
Which speaks to the (lack of) intelligence for the gold glove voters.


The unintelligent gold glove voters are the managers and coaches. And they aren't allowed to vote for their own players.

alnorth
07-01-2007, 04:45 PM
Shortstops by Zone Rating

Zone rating: The percentage of balls fielded by a player in his typical defensive "zone," as measured by STATS, Inc.

Edit: this definition from ESPN isnt 100% accurate. If a great shortstop fields a ball thats hit outside of his "zone", he is rewarded with an out, but if he misses a ball hit outside his "zone", he is not punished in the stat, because he wasnt expected to get to the ball anyway. Therefore, players with great range are rewarded with more putouts that dont count against them if missed.

Omar Vizquel, .908
Jose Reyes, .907
Bobby Crosby, .871
Adam Everett, .870
Rafael Furcal, .870
Khalil Greene, .862
Troy Tulowitzki, .859
Miguel Tejada, .858
Jason Bartlett, .852
Orlando Cabrera, .846
Alex Gonzalez, .839
Tony Pena Jr., .838
Juan Uribe, .837
Jack Wilson, .828
Julio Lugo, .824
Stephen Drew, .822
Jimmy Rollins, .819
Yuniesky Betancourt, .816
Carlos Guillen, .808
J.J. Hardy, .808
Cesar Izturis, .806
Edgar Renteria, .795
Jhonny Peralta, .786
Michael Young, .784
Brendan Harris, .778
Hanley Ramirez, .773
Derek Jeter, .756

So, in other words, of all the balls hit into an average shortstop's "Zone" that he should be reasonably expected to get to, the league leader Omar Vizquel of the Giants converts over 90% into outs, our own Tony Pena Jr, converts about 84%, and all-world wonder defensive guru Derek Jeter records a pitiful 75% into outs.

This isnt a one year mid-season outlier, Derek Jeter sucks every damned year, but the old-school baseball men say "to heck with all those new-fangled statistics, I see a good shortstop!"

The reason why Errors is not a great stat, is because a Jeter with crappy range may not get an error for not getting to a ball, because to the naked eye, it looks like a clean hit. A great shortstop that gets to a ball that most shortstops wouldnt have laid a glove on, but fails to make the play, may also be punished with an error because to the naked eye, it looked bad, but it usually would have gotten out of the infield with a Jeter type of SS.

HolmeZz
07-01-2007, 05:02 PM
The unintelligent gold glove voters are the managers and coaches. And they aren't allowed to vote for their own players.

Gold Gloves mean nothing. Bobby Abreu has won one and I think Rafael Palmeiro won one despite DHing 99% of that season.

Jeter's not a very good fielder at this point in his career. Can't go to his left to save his life.

alnorth
07-01-2007, 05:07 PM
Our SS Tony Pena Jr is another reason why Errors are a bad stat. He's got quite a few compared to his peers, but thats mostly because he has a really good range. He gets to balls that to many other SS's would be unplayable and therefore unpunished, fails to record the out, and gets hit with the Error.

Cochise
07-01-2007, 05:26 PM
Instead of trying to quantify something that is exceedingly difficult to quantify, I would be convinced if you could explain why the managers and coaches in major league baseball think he's the best, when really he's the worst...?

RJ
07-01-2007, 05:37 PM
I think most years the fans do a good job with the vote. Sure, there are always a couple of positions where a guy gets jobbed but the manager makes it up with his picks. Baseball's All Star game is still far and away the best of the major sports. IMO.

HolmeZz
07-01-2007, 05:39 PM
Instead of trying to quantify something that is exceedingly difficult to quantify, I would be convinced if you could explain why the managers and coaches in major league baseball think he's the best, when really he's the worst...?

I agree about defensive statistics.

But as someone who gets to watch 90% of Jeter's games, I can tell you he's not very good defensively. He'll make some nice plays that end up on the highlight reel(which is what makes him completely overrated), but it's not reflective of his overall defense. His range is extremely poor. He doesn't get much that's hit to his left, and anything that he gets to his right is usually not hit hard. Also he's made his share of sloppy throws to first this year(though that was mostly early on this season).

dj56dt58
07-01-2007, 05:42 PM
Looks like the steroid using piece of shit got the starting lf spot over soriano

Demonpenz
07-01-2007, 05:55 PM
As much as hate jeter. He is very clutch. 4 rings. first ballot hall of famer, leader, captain, he is everything you would want.

RJ
07-01-2007, 05:59 PM
As much as hate jeter. He is very clutch. 4 rings. first ballot hall of famer, leader, captain, he is everything you would want.



Agreed. I'm a full fledged, lifetime Yankee hater but I have to admit I admire Jeter. He makes plays and wins games. Baseball is a game of numbers but stats don't always the whole story.

Frazod
07-01-2007, 06:08 PM
Looks like the steroid using piece of shit got the starting lf spot over soriano

Yeah, that's disgusting. I hate the Cubs, but Soriano is great. :shake:

Cochise
07-01-2007, 06:10 PM
Agreed. I'm a full fledged, lifetime Yankee hater but I have to admit I admire Jeter. He makes plays and wins games. Baseball is a game of numbers but stats don't always the whole story.

I'm not saying that he is what he was at one time, or even that he's the best, but to say he's the worst is pretty out there.

dj56dt58
07-01-2007, 06:11 PM
Yeah, that's disgusting. I hate the Cubs, but Soriano is great. :shake:
Better than Bonds is Plus he doesn't take steroids. Soriano was ahead in voting till right at the time they announced the starters. Theres a surprise..MLB wanted him to start all along especially with it being in SF.

Frazod
07-01-2007, 06:13 PM
Better than Bonds is Plus he doesn't take steroids. Soriano was ahead in voting till right at the time they announced the starters. Theres a surprise..MLB wanted him to start all along especially with it being in SF.

Yeah, I call shenanigans on that one.

Of course, that is the only place ON EARTH that he won't get booed.

OnTheWarpath58
07-01-2007, 06:19 PM
Yeah, I call shenanigans on that one.

Of course, that is the only place ON EARTH that he won't get booed.

I'm usually not the type to wish injury on anyone, but I'd laugh my ass off if he blew out his knee chasing down a gapper in the ASG.

Career over.

Hank's record safe.

Justice is served.

Coach
07-01-2007, 06:29 PM
Yeah, I call shenanigans on that one.

Of course, that is the only place ON EARTH that he won't get booed.

Yeah. Barry was down by 120,000 and surpasses Soriano by 100,000. I say something really stinks.

Frazod
07-01-2007, 06:34 PM
Yeah. Barry was down by 120,000 and surpasses Soriano by 100,000. I say something really stinks.

Apparently the officials from the $tealer$/Seahawks Super Bowl were in charge of tabulating the results.

OnTheWarpath58
07-01-2007, 06:38 PM
Apparently the officials from the $tealer$/Seahawks Super Bowl were in charge of tabulating the results.

Damn, fraz....

Did you lose a shit-ton of money on that game or something?

I mean, its only been almost 18 months ago.....

:hmmm:

Frazod
07-01-2007, 06:40 PM
Damn, fraz....

Did you lose a shit-ton of money on that game or something?

I mean, its only been almost 18 months ago.....

:hmmm:

Hey, bent is bent.

88TG88
07-01-2007, 06:40 PM
Didn't really catch the AL but the NL seems good. Underrated Saito made it in and Russ Martin should start. Not bad

OnTheWarpath58
07-01-2007, 06:40 PM
Hey, bent is bent.

Fair enough.

Frazod
07-01-2007, 06:43 PM
Fair enough.
To answer your question, no, I didn't bet anything on that game. Nor do I have any great hatred of the $tealer$, or any great love for the Hags.

But that game was completely handed to the $tealer$ by the officials. And it stunk just as much as Roid Boy Bonds getting the start over Soriano stinks now.

Dr. Facebook Fever
07-01-2007, 06:50 PM
I forgot... when did Barry Bonds test positive for steroids?

Heh.

:Poke:

OnTheWarpath58
07-01-2007, 06:54 PM
I forgot... when did Barry Bonds test positive for steroids?

Heh.

:Poke:


rochambeau

Please tell me you're not one of "them"........

Dr. Facebook Fever
07-01-2007, 06:59 PM
rochambeau

Please tell me you're not one of "them"........
I try to give people the benefit of the doubt until proven guilty... so sue me.

I do believe OJ did though.... and Barry probably did too.

OnTheWarpath58
07-01-2007, 07:02 PM
I try to give people the benefit of the doubt until proven guilty... so sue me.

I do believe OJ did though.... and Barry probably did too.

I'm the same, but to me, admitting it in front of a grand jury = guilty.

Sam Hall
07-01-2007, 07:06 PM
i was hoping we might have a night where we wouldn't have to hear about that bonds guy.

Dr. Facebook Fever
07-01-2007, 07:06 PM
I'm the same, but to me, admitting it in front of a grand jury = guilty.
Did Barry do that? I honestly didn't know if he did.

alnorth
07-01-2007, 07:08 PM
I'm not saying that he is what he was at one time, or even that he's the best, but to say he's the worst is pretty out there.

Derek Jeter's complete ineptitude at the six is a pretty unanimous fact among the Saber nerds like myself. I explain Derek's being rewarded with the gold glove despite being among the worst for a couple reasons.

First, the gold glove is heavily influenced by offensive performance. Its not supposed to be, but lets not kid ourselves, a guy who can really rake the ball becomes a more popular star, high profile, hes looked at more often, and if he doesnt butcher his position, a good offensive player is given the benefit of the doubt. Throw in the whole "the leader of the Yankees" mystique, and its harder to stand in the way.

Second, when a ball *IS* hit at Jeter (except this year) he has been money, clean professional fielding, spectacular and pretty-looking, when he gets to the ball, he hasnt missed the throw very often till this year, and he's looked very good doing it with Athletic double plays.

The problem is, he's got feet of stone, he doesnt GET to many balls in order to show off his accurate arm. To a baseball fan, even a non-Yankee fan, already dazzled by the offense and the leadership, you want to believe hes a good defender, and when you see him play (again until recently), he looked really good.

However, if you have two shortstops, one guy is money (say 98%) but he only gets to about 3/4 of the balls he should get to, the other guy is a more mortal 96% on balls he gets to, but he gets to 85% of them, Jeter may look good, but he costs his team more runs than the 2nd more ordinary-looking shortstop, because range is very hard to see.

This is only changing with Jeter this year because his already-pathetic range has gotten even slower to the point where its now finally painfully obvious to even the casual fan that he just isnt getting to the ball. The stats have been seeing this for years, and the fans are finally seeing it this year.

Fruit Ninja
07-01-2007, 07:11 PM
Didn't really catch the AL but the NL seems good. Underrated Saito made it in and Russ Martin should start. Not bad
Saito has been dominating with his slider. His slider is sick. Russel is probably the best catcher in the NL. Cant say all of baseball til Pudge retires. They need to change the Golden Glove award to his name.

Miles
07-01-2007, 07:18 PM
Did Barry do that? I honestly didn't know if he did.

http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/news/story?id=1937594

Dr. Facebook Fever
07-01-2007, 07:20 PM
http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/news/story?id=1937594
Oh yea... I did know about that.

Miles
07-01-2007, 07:23 PM
Good call on the stats, Carlota - When was the last year Jeter actually deserved his spot I wonder?

He posted pretty impressive offensive stats last season and it was probably the best year of his career a the plate. He is off to a pretty damn good start this season by not quite the pace as last. Guillen should probably be starting over him though.

alnorth
07-01-2007, 07:26 PM
Derek Jeter zone ratings, last 7 years

2001: Dead Last, 23 out of 23 qualified SS's, .789 (Rey Sanchez of Atlanta and KC was 1st)
2002: 2nd-to-Last, 26 out of 27, .803 (A-Rod was 1st)
2003: Dead Last, 22 out of 22, .791
2004: Finally Near League Average!, 11 out of 23, .847 (Angel Berroa of KC was Dead Last)
2005: Below average, neck-and-neck with Berroa, 16 out of 24, .830
2006: 5th from the bottom, 2 better than Berroa, 20 out of 24, .810
2007 to date: Dead Last, 27 out of 27, .756

RJ
07-01-2007, 07:30 PM
How much argument can there be with a guy hitting .335 along with a .407 OBP making the All Star team? You can make a case for some other guys but you sure can't say Jeter is undeserving.

BWillie
07-01-2007, 07:34 PM
How much argument can there be with a guy hitting .335 along with a .407 OBP making the All Star team? You can make a case for some other guys but you sure can't say Jeter is undeserving.

You can't with Bonds either. .304 with 16 jacks. Those are All-Star #'s. He has been hitting really well last 2 weeks.

RJ
07-01-2007, 07:34 PM
Derek Jeter zone ratings, last 7 years

2001: Dead Last, 23 out of 23 qualified SS's, .789 (Rey Sanchez of Atlanta and KC was 1st)
2002: 2nd-to-Last, 26 out of 27, .803 (A-Rod was 1st)
2003: Dead Last, 22 out of 22, .791
2004: Finally Near League Average!, 11 out of 23, .847 (Angel Berroa of KC was Dead Last)
2005: Below average, neck-and-neck with Berroa, 16 out of 24, .830
2006: 5th from the bottom, 2 better than Berroa, 20 out of 24, .810
2007 to date: Dead Last, 27 out of 27, .756



How many fans are punching their ballots based on defensive stats? Personally, I don't think they should be. Fans want to see a game where both teams go out there and light it up.

tk13
07-01-2007, 07:35 PM
He probably isn't as good defensively as he gets credit for. But that said, if it was the 7th game of the World Series, bases loaded, 2 outs, tie game in the 9th inning... Jeter is probably one of the top 2-3 guys I'd want up there.

alnorth
07-01-2007, 07:39 PM
How much argument can there be with a guy hitting .335 along with a .407 OBP making the All Star team? You can make a case for some other guys but you sure can't say Jeter is undeserving.

Well, I was mostly responding to the whole "Derek is a good fielder" myth.

As far as an All-Star, it depends on how important defense really is. I might argue that Carlos Guillen should start with his .954 OPS and better fielding, but Jeter is right behind him with the stick at an .881 OPS. Behind Jeter, theres a big drop-off on offense, so I'm not complaining too much about him starting the All-Star game ahead of Guillen. Defense really isnt all THAT important, but in a defense discussion, it really needs to be recognised that Derek Jeter flat-out sucks, and he makes up for this suckiness with his offense and "leadership".

I'd still take Jeter over Tony Pena Jr for his bat in the lineup, he's good enough to be kind of servicable as a shortstop. I'd just be ready to sub him out when we have the lead on the road in the bottom of the 9th for someone who knows what the hell he's doing on the infield.

alnorth
07-01-2007, 07:41 PM
He probably isn't as good defensively as he gets credit for. But that said, if it was the 7th game of the World Series, bases loaded, 2 outs, tie game in the 9th inning... Jeter is probably one of the top 2-3 guys I'd want up there.

If he's up to bat, absolutely. If he's on the field, bring in the all-glove no-bat defensive specialist, and pat Jeter on the back on his way to the bench.

dj56dt58
07-01-2007, 07:55 PM
Yeah, I call shenanigans on that one.

Of course, that is the only place ON EARTH that he won't get booed.
I had a feeling it would happen though

Demonpenz
07-01-2007, 07:59 PM
If he's up to bat, absolutely. If he's on the field, bring in the all-glove no-bat defensive specialist, and pat Jeter on the back on his way to the bench.


I would have to disagree even if he has below par range he has the experience, knowledge to make correct plays at the correct time. You have a guy with 50 plus post season games under his belt there isn't a person I would trust more making throwing to the correct base, chasing down a runner, turning a dp etc. Stats be damned. On top of that the guy has the knack of coming up huge.

Carlota69
07-01-2007, 11:51 PM
I agree that Carlos Guillen should be in the AS game, starter or reserve, he deserves to be there. However, Cabrera has better offensive numbers, than Jeter, and fairly close to equal of Guillen for the most part (And everyone wants to talk offense) and he only have 4 errors, the highest fielding percentage in the AL for SS. Cabrera at the minimum, should be a reserve.

And this whole thing about Jesus Jeter winning the gold glove the past few years, one of them OC had better fielding numbers. But Jesus Jeter had better offensive numbers, So obviously offense plays into the gold glove situation...

Mojo Rising
07-02-2007, 12:14 AM
I forgot... when did Barry Bonds test positive for steroids?

Heh.

:Poke:

When his hat and shoe size grew 2 sizes in his late 30's.

That was the only test the did at the time. Still don't have one for hgh which he still does.

In the end it doesn't matter because he hasn't won a championship. In fact, the SF Giants have never won one. The Marlins have won 2, Diamondbacks 1...Giants none.

Rumor has it that the reason he lives in Beverly Hills is so that he can be closer to the Dodgers trophies!

DJay23
07-02-2007, 07:57 AM
for someone who knows what the hell he's doing on the infield.
I was with you until you said this. There is a distinction between, "weak range" and "knows what the hell he's doing." Remember the playoff game versus Oakland where he flipped the weak outfield throw to the plate? Just one example, the guy does know what he's doing.

Amnorix
07-02-2007, 08:00 AM
Jeter is bad in the field? He won the gold glove at shortstop each of the last 3 seasons.

That, too, is a joke.

HemiEd
07-02-2007, 08:34 AM
NEW YORK

Carlota69
07-02-2007, 11:12 AM
NEW YORK

Exactly...

All we see on FOX Saturday baseball is the "Yankees vs. the Considered Unimportant Becasue they arent in NY". even if the Yankees are in dead last place and the game really means Diddly...

Even Baseball Tonight is considering the Cabrera Snub the biggest one--But then again, that was John Kruck or whatever the hell is name is... :)

DJay23
07-02-2007, 11:20 AM
Last night before the Tigers-Twins game on Baseball Tonight they ran down the top 10 plays from the day. Jeter was number 1 with a play that was IDENTICAL to Tony Pena Jr's. From what I saw of them, Pena's arm got the ball there on a line and Jeter's had a bit of lollipop to it. But because he's Jeter he gets the top play.

HolmeZz
07-02-2007, 11:24 AM
John Maine got snubbed royally. He didn't even make the last 5 vote-in. Ridiculous that he doesn't make the team and Hamels does.

Carlota69
07-02-2007, 11:34 AM
Last night before the Tigers-Twins game on Baseball Tonight they ran down the top 10 plays from the day. Jeter was number 1 with a play that was IDENTICAL to Tony Pena Jr's. From what I saw of them, Pena's arm got the ball there on a line and Jeter's had a bit of lollipop to it. But because he's Jeter he gets the top play.

Being an Angels fan, I watched us get swept by you guys, and I have to say, Pena Jr is a VERY good SS. And you're right, Jeter's play was good, but nas good as your Royal SS. But he's Jeter, they like to lick his ass...must taste like chocolate...

HemiEd
07-02-2007, 11:55 AM
Being an Angels fan, I watched us get swept by you guys, and I have to say, Pena Jr is a VERY good SS. And you're right, Jeter's play was good, but nas good as your Royal SS. But he's Jeter, they like to lick his ass...must taste like chocolate...

LMAO, or it could be they are just pandering to the NY fans, as always. There is a bunch of them, has to be good for ratings. Or, maybe the opposite, would be bad for ratings more likely? :hmmm:

The Rick
07-02-2007, 12:23 PM
Living in Milwaukee and following the Brewers, I think they are right on with their 4 All-Stars. What do you guys think?

Prince Fielder - absolutely deserves to be an all-star, possible league MVP
Francisco Cordero - leading the league in saves w/ 27
Ben Sheets - has been lights out lately, tied for NL lead with 10 wins
J.J. Hardy - cooled off a little after a hot start, but still has good numbers (.284, 18 HR, 51 RBI)

Codered
07-02-2007, 12:49 PM
I must be one of the only few non Yankees fans that actually like Jeter. I agree he is overrated, but the guy goes out there and plays hard every day. He always plays at a near all-star level. He is a great club house leader and for someone who is in the NY spotlight all the time he presents himself in a respectful manner.

Is he overrated? Sure.. However he is a great baseball player that does it the right way.

alnorth
07-02-2007, 01:27 PM
I must be one of the only few non Yankees fans that actually like Jeter. I agree he is overrated, but the guy goes out there and plays hard every day. He always plays at a near all-star level. He is a great club house leader and for someone who is in the NY spotlight all the time he presents himself in a respectful manner.

Is he overrated? Sure.. However he is a great baseball player that does it the right way.

I want to be clear that Jeter is a good player. If me and 29 other GM wannabe's were holding a draft, he's at least a top-5 SS on my board. Defense is generally overrated, and Jeter is a great hitter for a shortstop.

The only point I'm making is that for whatever small bit of importance defense has, Jeter is closer to being the absolute worst everyday defensive shortstop in the last 10 years rather than the best.