PDA

View Full Version : Was this off season more fun than last?


58Forever
04-25-2001, 09:00 AM
Let's see last year all we could talk about was Corey Dillon...

I'd say with all the wheelings and dealings and ****ing with the Rams...getting Green, Holmes, Horne, losing Grbac, McGlockton, Hasty...

This off season gave us much more to argue about...and not many rumors...I am psyched...I'm not ready for the Summer to be over, but I'm ready for some football....:cool:

keg in kc
04-25-2001, 09:08 AM
Definitely and infinitely more fun, in my humble estimation. ;)

TeenagerFromMars
04-25-2001, 09:25 AM
If change in personnel = fun, then yes!! It could have been more "fun" IMO, but I've enjoyed the ride. Depending on how these changes pan out over the next few seasons, this offseason could be the subject of debate for years to come. Not that we've ever had a problem finding issues to debate or anything...

58Forever
04-25-2001, 09:33 AM
Mars Man, see, you missed last year when all we talked about was Corey Dillon...believe me it was pretty boring...

See the personnel changes, the new coaching staff is what made it fun...

Elvis has left the Building...and Green is in Red and Gold...We have a Priest to bless the backfield...and a Horne to blow everytime we receive a kickoff...a Snoop to check out the secondary and...well, you get the idea...:D

seclark
04-25-2001, 09:42 AM
what???
you mean we're not gonna get dillon???

sec

morphius
04-25-2001, 09:58 AM
Let's see, nobody has died, nobody arrested for drugs and there is no longer a Schottenheimer in the Chiefs orginization.

Seems to be some change for the better.

Iowanian
04-25-2001, 10:07 AM
there wasn't any band width to type Dillon's name with all of the Ewes talk.....

I'm warming to the Green trade...but am still about "ram'd out"......(thats tired of talking about the rams for you fella's that are light in the loafers....)

KCTitus
04-25-2001, 10:12 AM
Since Morph brought it up, and Im right smack in the middle of Redskins country, I thought I'd fill you in on the locals trying to figure out Marty Speak...

In the pre-draft press conference, Marty was asked about how they would use their mere 4 picks in the draft this year. His response was classic Marty. I quote:

With our four picks, we have the opportunity to get four guys who can be on our team

Good ol' Marty...

When asked how he would go with his first pick, there was speculation about whether or not he would draft a WR - this years draft was deep in WR's- the reporter noted that he had never drafted a WR with his first pick ever before. Marty's response was that he had never really thought about it.

Marty was then asked about drafting an OG with his pick in the first round and I laughed my a$$ off when I read this response:

Traditionally, we've not really wanted to draft offensive linemen in the first round

After the draft, the local sports reporter was scratching his head about Marty saying one thing and then doing another....Here's and excerpt of the article:

..."Before and during the draft, Schottenheimer said he had allways been an advocate of the 'take the best athlete available' theory of drafting. But under the present free agent and salary-cap system, Schottenheimer said, teams can't afford to wait three or four years to see if someone can play.

Then, Schottenheimer spent the second day of the draft taking 'project' players."...

ExtremeChief
04-25-2001, 10:13 AM
but it was definately intriguing and interesting...more than normal for our beloved Chiefs.

nice to see the news be about us for once...

58Forever
04-25-2001, 10:30 AM
Titus, that is classic Marty...no wonder Gun talked the way he did...he learned from Marty...:D

Packfan
04-25-2001, 10:43 AM
You mean trading your 12th pick for a backup QB and your 2nd round pick for a coach was "fun"?? I thought it was kind of painful.

"with the 12th pick in the NFL draft, the Kansas City Chiefs select........ a career backup QB who was an UFA a few years ago"

"with their second round pick, the Kansas City Chiefs select, Dick Vermeil, 67 years old and a recently burned out head coach"

You guys call that "fun"??

The rest of us enjoyed seeing our teams participate in the draft.

Otter
04-25-2001, 10:45 AM
I wonder if Joe Theisman realizes he is increasing the aging process of his skin by going to tanning booths.

Thoughts???

Otter
04-25-2001, 11:07 AM
I wonder if Joe Theisman realizes he is increasing the aging process of his skin by going to tanning booths.

Thoughts???

JohninGpt
04-25-2001, 11:22 AM
He is perfecting that George Hamilton-leather face look. He hopes to one day be skinned, tanned and mounted in the HOF.

keg in kc
04-25-2001, 11:26 AM
Well, Peckerfan, I'm sure this offseason has been more "fun" than having 19 seasons of .500 or worse since 1970.

I'm sure it's been more "fun" than going 25 years without a playoff win. How's that new streak going, by the way? Three years is it?

I guess the folks in Green Bay are content with winning a championship every 30 years. Let's see, 1930's? Check. 1960's? Check? 1990's check.

Come back in about 2020, you might be a winner again by then.

Packfan
04-25-2001, 11:36 AM
Kyle,

Nice comeback, kind of desperate though. Comparing the 1970s Packers to the current Chiefs? Whats that all about?

keg in kc
04-25-2001, 11:50 AM
No, I'm just putting a little perspective into your incessant "Maybe that's why you haven't won a playoff game in 8 years" and how we're doomed to mediocrity trash - as a Pecker fan, you're the in-house authority on both mediocrity and missing the playoffs for extended periods of time.

You might want to worry about getting your own house in order instead of spending so much time over here telling us poor stupid guys how to build ours. You haven't sniffed a post season win in three years yourself, and there's a lot of teams in the NFC in one hell of a lot better shape than you are.

JOhn
04-25-2001, 01:02 PM
Originally posted by Packfan


"with the 12th pick in the NFL draft, the Kansas City Chiefs select........ a career backup QB who was an UFA a few years ago"

"with their second round pick, the Kansas City Chiefs select, Dick Vermeil, 67 years old and a recently burned out head coach"

]

Lets see, we get rid of Grbac, who according to Peckerfan, is a loser, and pick up a decent QB. But wait that was a bad move, who needs a QB?

The we get rid of Gunther, and get a HC, who has been to 2 SB and won one 2 years ago, but wait thats STUPID!!! heck who needs a winning HC?

Geez Peckerfan, there you go talking out both sides of your *** again!! Just admit it, NOTHING KC will ever do, will be a good move for you right?

FYI, I do believe he burned out when he left the Eagle's not the Ram's. But hey 20 years ago is recent to you huh?

(still perplexed that with all Pack's knowledge he's not a HC or GM somewere!?!?!?)

Iowanian
04-25-2001, 01:12 PM
good job keg...



Kyle,

Nice comeback, kind of desperate though. Comparing the 1970s Packers to the current Chiefs? Whats that all about


pack,
-being such a stickler for facts, I'm suprised that you didn't mention the fact that the Puckers sucked in the 80's as well.

one area the Chiefs and Puckers were very similar.

Archie F. Swin
04-25-2001, 02:15 PM
Let's just hope that this years draft is as fruitfull as last years.

This has been a thrilling off-season

58Forever
04-25-2001, 02:19 PM
Let's see, give up our 12th round pick for a starting QB or pay an aging, almost over the hill QB 100 mill?...

I'll take door #1

Mark M
04-25-2001, 02:59 PM
ZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz ...

Huh? What? Who?

Well, let's see (BURP!) what Pack (BELCH!) fan has to say:

Blah blah blah the Chiefs wasted their pick on Green (even though Grbac was so terrible). Blah blah blah they got a lousy head coach (even though Goonther was terrible and DV has been to 2 SBs). Blah blah blah blah blah ...

Well, I can't get on for most of the day and was worried I had missed something. Someone wanna wake me when Packfan stops talking out of both sides of his a$$? I'd appreciate it.

ZZZZZZZZZZZZZZzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz

MM
~~Glad to see he hasn't missed much

Gaz
04-25-2001, 03:08 PM
Let’s see:

1. Dumped the Stooges
2. Hired a Super Bowl winning coach
3. Lost our starting QB
4. Lost our rock in the secondary
5. Traded for our QOBTF&N

Yep, that was fun.

xoxo~
Gaz
Living in interesting times.

Mark M
04-25-2001, 03:30 PM
The rest of us enjoyed seeing our teams participate in the draft.

Considering that the Chiefs had 3 more picks than the Packers (9 vs. 6), I guess us Chiefs fans watched our team participate more than yours.

As usual, Ken, you post sh!t without getting all of your facts straight.

MM
~~Again, glad to see he hasn't missed anything.

Katie
04-25-2001, 03:38 PM
I don't post here too often, but am a regular reader or lurker as it were. I certainly don't remember there being such colorful and/or tempestuous conversations as I've seen this off season.

This season is much more interesting than last - hands down.

Iowanian
04-25-2001, 03:48 PM
knowing people are watching me like a Lab Rat in a soap opra....;)....probably should work on my "character developement":) kind of like being on Survivor without eating the worms, or winning the million bucks.

Katie, don 't be afraid to speak you mind and chime in.

Archie F. Swin
04-25-2001, 05:29 PM
tempestuous?

crap . . . . I'm gonna have to ask AustinChief to link a online dictionary


gee . . thanx Katie











just when I thought I knew all the adjectives

old_geezer
04-25-2001, 05:47 PM
Don't worry CRP

Katie was just being loquacious and engaging in hyperbole. :D

Katie
04-25-2001, 08:41 PM
I'm new here, so don't make too much fun of me, I might be afraid to post any more vivacious replies!

Zebedee DuBois
04-25-2001, 08:49 PM
For those 4 new fathers on this board, last years off-season must have been more fun, but this one will be more of an eye-opener. :)

sun
04-25-2001, 09:05 PM
very much fun

Mark M
04-26-2001, 06:50 AM
Katie--
Post as much as you want! And don't worry about us—we're all harmless ... well, for the most part. You might wanna watch out for that guy from Iowa. ;)

MM
~~Always welcomes a new member.

Katie
04-26-2001, 06:56 AM
Hey, my husband is from Iowa, I can handle those boys!

Mark M
04-26-2001, 07:05 AM
Hey, my husband is from Iowa, I can handle those boys!


LOL!! They are tough to handle. And so are the women ... my sister-in-law lives there (of course, I won't hold that against the rest of the people in the state).

Packfan
04-26-2001, 10:23 AM
Katie,

I agree that the Chiefs offseason has been "interesting"

1. Firing your head coach
2. Having your pro-bowl QB flee your team
3. Hiring the GM's best friend as coach and paying a 2nd round choice for him
4. Giving up the 12th pick in the draft for a journeyman QB
5. Watching instead of participating in day 1 of the draft
6. Cutting your best corner because of cap concerns
7. Watching the rest of your division widen the gap over the Chiefs.
8. Watching the Chargers build the right way
9. Signing Bubby Brister as insurance to Trent Green (has anyone ever heard of drafting and developing a QB?)
10. Absorbing the price increases at Arrowhead for a team that hasnt been to the playoffs in 3 of the last 4 years.

I think the right word to use in describing the Chiefs offseason is "painful"

Desperate teams do desperate things.

Its no wonder this team hasnt won a playoff game in 8 years.

KCTitus
04-26-2001, 10:30 AM
Not sure what to make of your list, there, Ken. Are you stating that all of those things were 'desparate' moves, bad moves or a combination.

If so, several facts are wrong and you have just contradicted yourself on several others, then again, that's no real suprise.

Mark M
04-26-2001, 10:34 AM
1. Firing your head coach
2. Having your pro-bowl QB flee your team
3. Hiring the GM's best friend as coach and paying a 2nd round choice for him
4. Giving up the 12th pick in the draft for a journeyman QB
5. Watching instead of participating in day 1 of the draft
6. Cutting your best corner because of cap concerns
7. Watching the rest of your division widen the gap over the Chiefs.
8. Watching the Chargers build the right way
9. Signing Bubby Brister as insurance to Trent Green (has anyone ever heard of drafting and developing a QB?)
10. Absorbing the price increases at Arrowhead for a team that hasnt been to the playoffs in 3 of the last 4 years.

I think the right word to use in describing the Chiefs offseason is "painful"

I think it's painful for you, Pack, more than us. You hated Elvis, he's now gone, so you have nothing to b!tch about other than Carl. We actually had 2 picks the first day of the draft ... a whopping one less than your team had. According to you, our "best" corner was burnt more often last year than a California hillside. And your team raised prices as well.

Once again, all you do is rip and never actually look at facts or what you've posted elsewhere.

MM
~~Will be utilizing the ignore feature very soon.

JOhn
04-26-2001, 10:35 AM
Originally posted by Packfan
Desperate teams do desperate things.

Its no wonder this team hasnt won a playoff game in 8 years.

Damm Kenny,

There you go again, talking out your @ss.
First we had to listen all last year as you deridded everything the Chiefs did or didn't do. Now that they make moves you slam that.... make up your mind.

1 I seem to recall you calling for Gun's fireing, change your mind?
2 A PB QB... oh man, last year He could do no good, but now he's a savior huh?
3 Hireing a SB coach who happens to be your best friend, who you can work with. And who has shown he won't be bullied by CP. Kinda takes the steam out of your blaming everything on CP huh?
4 A QB who I might add we got under market value... but yea he has been a journeyman.
5 BIG DEAL... still watched more than the packfans did. how many picks did they have?
6 Cutting a corner who, you stated on another thread is not very good.
7 you would know how that feels huh?
8 ROFLMAO.... we'll see
9 yea lets emulate the Bolts huh? (leaf) when was the last time the pack drafted and started a QB?
10 still cheaper than cheeses land. BTW you got a good playoff streak going also...

Kenny, just once it would be nice to see you take a stand, and stick to it, admit when good moves are made, and get over your fixation with CP. Course #3 should make it easier.

Gaz
04-26-2001, 10:39 AM
1. Amen. Firing the Head Coach was the best off-season move in years.
2. Grbac would have been a mismatch with the new Offense. His leaving was the best thing for the team, even though it did not seem so at the time.
3. We got a winning Coach who is on good terms with the GM. The compensation had no basis in law [Tagliabue sucks!], so I don’t see why Carl should be castigated for this.
4. We gave up the #12 pick for a starting QB, slot WR and P/KR and speedy RB. All positions that we needed to fill.
5. We did participate in day 1. Get your facts straight, please.
6. Our CB refused to renegotiate. BTW, on another thread you say that Hasty was not that good. Make up your mind, please.
7. That has not happened. Do not substitute opinion for fact, please.
8. If you think a 1-15 season is “the right way” I don’t wanna be right.
9. Brister was signed to a one year contract. He might be a backup, he might be camp fodder. Regardless, he was inexpensive and a good fit for the position.
10. Completely immaterial.

So, let us review:

Ten points, no substance.

Yep, typical Packyak.

xoxo~
Gaz
Getting tired of the same old same old.

Packfan
04-26-2001, 10:42 AM
Typical Titus, saying that there are errors in my work, but afraid to point out where.

Mark M,

When you have to trade your top two picks for a backup QB and head coach, you are in a world of hurt. To me, those are acts of desperation. The chiefs refusal to draft and develop a QB cost them a very high draft pick. The rediculous hiring of Gunter Cunningham cost them a 2nd round pick. You NEVER give up the 12th pick in the draft for a guy who was free and would have been free again (nobody else was interested and the Rams would have had to cut him eventually). Players like Green are available each and every year via free agency.

Its refreshing to see that there are a couple of Chief fans that share this same opinion.

The last couple years and this last off season have hardly been fun us.

I remember the Packers giving up their first round picks for the likes of John Hadl and John Jefferson. It sounded great when the trades were announce, but all it did was ensure mediocrity for another couple of years.

Draft picks are like Gold in the NFL. You dont piss them away on journeymen players and burned out, 67 year old best buddy, head coaches.

KCTitus
04-26-2001, 10:45 AM
Ken...The errors were so obvious, I didnt think I needed to, but 4 other posters took the time.

If you want, I can go into even more detail, but again, you never answered my question.

Packfan
04-26-2001, 10:52 AM
Gaz,

Vermeil wanted to keep Grbac. Obviously he thinks Grbac would have worked for this new high powered offense your referring to. But typical of you and other fans, once a guy is gone, you rip him to shread and say it is the best thing for the Chiefs.

As far as Hasty, yes, I rip on him. He isnt that good, BUT he was the best corner this team had, which isnt saying much. In final analysis, the team went backward at that position

Firing Gunter was a good move. It hardly makes up for the assinine decision to hire him because it ulimately cost the Chiefs a 2nd round pick.

Nobody wants to be 1-15, but at least they have their QB and running backs of the future. The Cheifs? Well they have a 30 year old journey man and Priest holmes. That might get you 9 wins, but will never get you playoff victories.

John,

Maybe you should pay attention more. I have give Peterson and the Chiefs plenty credit. Tony Gonzalez, John Tait, Victor Riley, Dale Carter, DT, and Sly Morris were among the great moves that CP made. Hell, he has had 12 years, he has done some things right and I have acknowledged them. As the years and the chief failures add up, he becomes more and more desperate.

Gaz
04-26-2001, 10:54 AM
We “traded” out top two picks for a Super Bowl winning Head Coach, a starting QB, a slot WR a Kick Returner and a fast RB. We filled multiple holes on our team. We filled more holes that we would have with those [2] picks.

I thought we should tear down to a minimal core and spend a couple of years rebuilding, but the Chiefs apparently believe they can contend in a year or two and are loading up for that purpose. Even though I supported a different direction, I understand what they are doing and why.

xoxo~
Gaz
Pleased with how this is shaping up.

Packfan
04-26-2001, 10:55 AM
As far as not participating in day one of the draft, I think (hope) most of you know what I mean. By the time the Chiefs turn came around, the fun and suspense were gone along with the marqee players.

Packfan
04-26-2001, 10:57 AM
Gaz,

Much better post. I'll count you as one who thought the Chiefs should have rebuilt. As a fan, I expect you to support them, but not necessarily agree with what they did.

How about the fact that Vermeil wanted to keep Elvis for that high powered, quick hitting attack you are referring to?

Gaz
04-26-2001, 10:58 AM
But typical of you and other fans, once a guy is gone, you rip him to shread and say it is the best thing for the Chiefs.

I questioned whether Grbac was a fit with the new Offense before he left.

Your statement above is offensive and false.

Unfortunately, that is typical of your posts.

xoxo~
Gaz
Continually disappointed.

keg in kc
04-26-2001, 11:01 AM
Peckerfan, you're saying it was a bad idea to spend a first round draft pick on our new quarterback, right?

Let's see, turn back the clock about, oh, let's say 9 years. The Atlanta Falcons trade some QB they drafted in the second round the year before, some guy who'd thrown all of 5 passes, completed zilch, and thrown 2 interceptions.

They trade him, this completely unproven commodity, to Green Bay for a first round pick

Good thing you're not the GM, because by your logic Green Bay would never have gotten Brett Favre.

And you're here castigating us for trading a first round pick for an experienced NFL quarterback, the best kickoff returner in the league and rookie RB Derrick Blaylock...

Do you think before you post or do you have a program that prints this crap up for you?

Packfan
04-26-2001, 11:02 AM
One other thing then I will wait until Titus points out all of my errors. You guys make way to much of this "super bowl head coach" thing. If Carl so desperately needed a super bowl head coach, why not Shula or Ditka?? Shula is the same age and wouldnt have cost the Chiefs anything. Ditka has recent experience and the fans would have loved it. He would have hired Vermeil regardless of super bowl experience. The fact are Vermeil is Carls friend and has coaching experience. He will support Carl regardless of how f ucked up the organization is.

Gaz
04-26-2001, 11:06 AM
I don’t know that Vermeil wanted Grbac. I know that he wanted Green.

Green is a much better fit with the Saunders Offense. Quick read, quick release.

We got Green. We got him for a very good price, compared to the “market value” set by the Rams.

I wanted Beuerlein in FA and Weinke and Jordan in the draft, but Carl made the Green/Horne/Blaylock “trade.” I’ll see how that pans out. I like to have some facts before I criticize…

xoxo~
Gaz
Waiting to see if reloading was the right move.

KCTitus
04-26-2001, 11:09 AM
Ken, dont go run and hide on my account. You made the stupid post, now either stand behind it or retract it. It's really quite simple.

Several others have taken you to task on your statements, maybe you care to revize your critcisms?

Gaz
04-26-2001, 11:10 AM
He would have hired Vermeil regardless of super bowl experience.

A pointless and meaningless statement.

xoxo~
Gaz
Should be used to it by now.

Packfan
04-26-2001, 11:12 AM
Gaz,

Have titus pull records of you quesitoning Grbac's ability to function in the new, quick hitting, high powered attack.

Kyle,

Big difference. For starters, the pick trade was one late in the first round (the packers had two first round picks that year). Also, Favre was 22 as the time. You talk about how Green has expereince. I agree. When he has played, his team hasnt won. Thats why he is on his third team in four years. The Packers were in a rebuilding mode when they traded for Favre. They still had Don Majkowski and planned on developing Favre. But Majkowski got hurt in game three and the rest is history.

One other thing. it obvious who the better GM is here. You would never see Ron Wolf give up a top 12 pick for someone he could get for free. It is clear that Carl doesnt have any patience. He is in a desperate situation with the Chiefs and in the long run, has hurt them by trading away his top two pick for player/coach that probably wont be around four years from now.

Lets face it, Trent Green and Dick Vermeil dont put you over the top. The Chiefs have many, many more holes to fill.

ct
04-26-2001, 11:13 AM
We make too much of that "super bowl coach thing"? Yeah, and you make too much of Wolf and that "super bowl GM thing", right?

Packfan
04-26-2001, 11:16 AM
Gaz,

How will this new quick hitting offense improve the passing game from last year?? If anything worked for the Cheifs last year, it was their passing game.

Grbac is the guy they wanted. I seriously doubt that there were any high fives when Grbac cowardly departed and attention was turned to trading for Trent Green. Grbac pulled a fast one on the Chiefs and forced them to give up the 12th pick in the draft for Trent Green. I hardly think the Chiefs are happy about that.

Do you?

ct
04-26-2001, 11:16 AM
Lets face it, Trent Green and Dick Vermeil dont put you over the top. The Chiefs have many, many more holes to fill.


Using that logic, seems GB has bigger holes to fill than KC, now that your hero has skipped town. Didn't take long for Ronnie to realize he was going NOWHERE without his "super bowl coach thing".

KCTitus
04-26-2001, 11:18 AM
Ron Wolf WAS a genius, I must admit that. He was able to do the one thing that Ken says is impossible.

Win with FA rejects - Desmond Howard took GB to the bowl and then won the SB for GB.

Yep, that Ron Wolf is a genius alright.

Mark M
04-26-2001, 11:18 AM
Packfan--
I agree that getting Green may not have been the best choice (I've been against the deal from the start), but to give up one pick for 3 players and a pick isn't a terrible deal. I was actually happy about it.

For you to say that Green either: a.) won't win any playoff games; or b.) would've been available soon, is just not correct. You cannot predict the future and what would've happened if Warner went down and Green stepped in and performed? He would not have been available. Also, to post that QBs like Green are available every year just isn't true. Who else was available this year? Johnson (another journeyman), Dilfer (enough said), Flutie (not the right choice for this offense), Leaf (yeah, right) and Aikman (who wisely retired). Who was available who could step right in? No one. While I didn't like giving the #12, I see why the Chiefs wanted him. Besides, how good have the Chiefs been developing QBs? Not very.

And no draft pick is a sure thing. One can have a known factor or a potential bust. The Chiefs choose the known factor, and I will wait to pass judgement.

MM
~~Has thoroughly enjoyed this offseason.

Gaz
04-26-2001, 11:18 AM
Gaz,

Have titus pull records of you quesitoning Grbac's ability to function in the new, quick hitting, high powered attack.

I must say that I really do not like the implication in that statement.

xoxo~
Gaz
Right in the edge of being seriously offended.

Packfan
04-26-2001, 11:22 AM
Coryt,

Just because a guy has coached a super bowl team doesnt mean he becomes a saviour when he moves to his next job. Ron Wolf rebuilt the Packers. It takes talent to win first and foremost. He provide the talent.
NOBODY could have won a super bowl with the talent Carl has provided in the last decade. Nobody.

I think the fact that Vermeil is 67 years old and has been burned out is more important that the fact that he recently coached a super bowl team. The Chiefs dont have near the talent the Rams had.

(on a side note, could the Chiefs signing of Vermeil been any better for the Rams?? When Vermeil arrived, the Chiefs became the only team interested in Trent Green and dumb enough to give them a 1st round pick. The rich get richer and the poor get poorer).

Gaz
04-26-2001, 11:26 AM
Packfan-

The point is not to improve the passing game. The point is to achieve an attacking Offense that does not rely on the play action fake. The Plan, as stated many times by Saunders, is to attack both on the ground and in the air. Lots of motion, a balanced attack, similar to the Chargers with Winslow.

Grbac does not fit that Offense. His Defensive read is slow and his judgment is questionable. Green does fit that Offense. Grbac is a good fit with the Ravens, Green is a good fit with Saunders new Offense.

xoxo~
Gaz
Would hate to see Grbac sub for Fouts or Warner.

Packfan
04-26-2001, 11:44 AM
Gaz,

Do you think the Chiefs were excited when Grbac bolted and they were left with a huge void at QB? Do you think Carl and Dick planned it this way? That Grbac would suddenly bolt and they would have to give up their 12th pick for another QB. I want your opinion on this.

keg in kc
04-26-2001, 11:49 AM
Considering that Vermeil was making statements about how great a quarterback Trent Green is at his very first press conference in Kansas City, I somehow don't think he cried too much over losing Elvis. He might have been fine if Grbac had stayed, but I don't think there's any question he has the man he wanted all along now. And I don't think anyone, even the most ardent Grbacker, will argue that Grbac has a quick read and release. He thrives on the play action, receivers working to get open and jump balls, not on quick strike accurate passing.

Amazing how you revise history, Deni-err, Ken.

Packfan
04-26-2001, 11:52 AM
Mark,

Jeff George, Vinny Testeverde, Brad Johnson, Randall Cunningham, Doug Flutie, Elvis Grbac, Rich Gannon, Trent Green, Steve Buerline, Jay Fiedler, Jon Kitna, Neil Odonnel, Jeff Garcia, Kerry Collins.

All about the same caliber, all free agents at one time or another.

Carl made a cardinal sin by trading the 12th pick for a marginal QB who MOST LIKELY would have been cut (you cant have two high priced QBs on your roster very long - look at the Bills). Remember what picks that high have done for the Chiefs in the past (Gonza, DT).

The only reason to make that trade is out of desperation. If they dont make the trade and sing Buerline or the like, they probably wouldnt win as many games, BUT they would have their 12th pick and a high pick for next year. The signing of Green doesnt upgrade this team. They are still a 7 to 9 win team.

Mark M
04-26-2001, 11:52 AM
First you rip Carl for signing Elvis and spend all of last year telling all of us how bad he sucks. Now you rip Carl for letting Elvis go.

Are you ever happy …
http://129.116.50.162/pics/troll.jpg

MM
~~Thinks Packfan should copy the pic above and make it his signature.

Packfan
04-26-2001, 11:56 AM
Mark,

I am not ripping Carl for letting him go. He had no choice. I think Elvis did the Chiefs a favor by departing (until the Chiefs gave up their 12th pick for another journey man back up). I rip Carl for not having a QB in development and not preparing for Grbac's sudden departure. Anything can happen when a guy becomes a free agent. He should have had an adequate backup, not Warren Moon and Todd Collins.

Mark M
04-26-2001, 11:57 AM
Jeff George, Vinny Testeverde, Brad Johnson, Randall Cunningham, Doug Flutie, Elvis Grbac, Rich Gannon, Trent Green, Steve Buerline, Jay Fiedler, Jon Kitna, Neil Odonnel, Jeff Garcia, Kerry Collins.

Impressive list. Let's see here ... there are 14 QBs listed, 5 of which were free agents this year and combined they have (at my count, at least) 12 playoff wins. We all know how much emphasis you put on post-season wins, so if we would've signed any of these players you would still be carrying on your mantras of "Carl made a mistake" and "They are still a 7-9 team."

The Chiefs just can't do anything right, can they Ken?
http://129.116.50.162/pics/troll.jpg

MM
~~Quickly getting tired of this.

Gaz
04-26-2001, 11:57 AM
Packfan-
No, I do not think they were excited. I think they were surprised when Grbac made his outrageous salary demand. I think Carl was caught without a contingency plan, which is criminal neglect in my book.

I do, however, think that Grbac would have been a terrible fit with Saunders Offense and that he did us a favor by going to Baltimore. Both sides are better off as a result of that transaction [or non-transaction, as it were].

xoxo~
Gaz
Was coming to like Grbac, but not without a play action Offense.

keg in kc
04-26-2001, 11:59 AM
If you think Green would have been cut by the Rams, then please send me your address - I have a pamphlet regarding some prime oceanfront property in beautiful, sandy, rural Missouri that I'd like to send to you a.s.a.p.

Gaz
04-26-2001, 12:02 PM
With Warner’s continuing concussion problems, I am surprised the Rams made the trade at all.

There is no way they would have cut Green. They had the cap room to keep him and they most certainly would have kept him.

xoxo~
Gaz
Surprised, but starting to warm to the idea.

Mark M
04-26-2001, 12:03 PM
I rip Carl for not having a QB in development

For once, a valid criticism IMO.

Packfan
04-26-2001, 12:04 PM
Gaz,

First round draft picks take up cap space. Prior to the Green trade, they had two of them. Plus, they were in the middle of contract negotiations with Aneass Williams. He eats up a lot of cap space too. Winning a Super Bowl inflates your cap as well.

Teams cant afford to have two high priced QBs on their roster.

WisChief
04-26-2001, 12:05 PM
Originally posted by Packfan
Do you think the Chiefs were excited when Grbac bolted and they were left with a huge void at QB? Do you think Carl and Dick planned it this way? That Grbac would suddenly bolt and they would have to give up their 12th pick for another QB.

Pardon me Gaz, I'm not trying to step on your feet here, but...

Yea, Ken I do think that all involved were happy that Elvis left. Think about it. How do you announce that you don't want the best QB (statistically) that KC has seen since Len Dawson. You don't - you let that QB dictate it and that is what they did. I can't pull any direct quotes, but I recall that A.S. was not overly excited about retaining Elvis and I remember VD being very ho-hum about him staying or going. You've always said that Carl couldn't bag him because he had so much invested in him - well he simply let Elvis give up and walk. Carl and Co. were NOT surprised in the least bit.

I did not think that Carl would give up the 1st without recieving a first in exchange (12 or 20 and TG), but I posted some time ago that I believe that VD is running the show personel wise more than any of us know.

KCTitus
04-26-2001, 12:08 PM
Green had a very cap friendly contact...counting roughly 2.5M against St. Louis cap going into this year.

They could have afforded to keep him until his current contract expired, which was after the 02-03 season.

Packfan
04-26-2001, 12:09 PM
Wis Chief,

Your memory sucks. Vermeil very clearly stated that he wanted and liked Elvis. If they didnt want him, they could have cut him a lot earlier. Elvis dictated the negotiations by demanding a 20 million dollar bonus. He wanted to get cut. I though that was pretty obvious. The Chiefs were caught with their pants down (again). They went into panic mode and became the ONLY team bidding for Trent Green. They said that the 12th pick was to high and ended up paying it. It reminds me of when Dale Carter suddenly departed. Once again, panic mode. Carl signed Carton Gray to a huge contract even though he had been cut twice the year before.

Desperate teams do desperate thing. The Chiefs are desperate.

Packfan
04-26-2001, 12:11 PM
Titus,

2.5 million is hardly "cap friendly". You must think that the Rams two first round picks and Aneass Williams were going to play for free.

Not surprised by your post.

KCTitus
04-26-2001, 12:12 PM
Talk about memory sucking...

Carl chose not to resign Carter and we all knew why. He let Denver take on that mental case. THAT was no suprise.

Signing Carlton Gray was in response to our weak link named Mark McMillan. At least get the facts straight.

KCTitus
04-26-2001, 12:14 PM
Sure it was cap friendly...It's cap friendly as long as you can afford to pay it.

Do you even know how much cap room St. Louis has?

Never suprised by your posts.

Gaz
04-26-2001, 12:15 PM
KCTitus is correct. The Rams have the room and Green's cap hit was not that high. That was one justification on the BBs for getting him in the R&G. He is cap-friendly for the next couple of years.

Had the deal not gone through, Green would have been a Ram this season. If Warner's head does not clear, they may yet regret the trade.

And Steve Beuerlein would be our QB with Deuce McAllister as our RB.

Beuerlein & McAllister or Green, Holmes and Blaylock?

We get more value from the trade [even though I preferred Beuerlein].

xoxo~
Gaz
Wondering if the wall even notices the head banging.

WisChief
04-26-2001, 12:15 PM
Ken, I try to have a civil conversation with you and you get all personal - AMAZING!!

What did you expect VD to come in here saying. "I don't give a rat's *** if Elvis threw 50 TD's while wearing his blue suede shoes, he sucks and he's gone!"

If they wanted Elvis - they would have paid the cash. They wanted Green, so they gave up the pick.

************

trying really hard not to #itch slap you some more....

Packfan
04-26-2001, 12:18 PM
WIs Chief,

They would have paid Elvis 20 Million??? That what he wanted? Nobody get that kind of signing bonus.

C'mon already. Say something smart!

keg in kc
04-26-2001, 12:24 PM
2.5 million is hardly "cap friendly".

Okay, Einstein, Let's talk cap friendly:

From Kffl:

As an update to previous reports, the Milwaukee Journal Sentinel reports Green Bay PackersGreen Bay Packers QB Brett Favre will pocket $16.2 million in the next two seasons as part of his new deal with the team. This year he will have a base salary of $477,000, $723,000 base salary and receive a $4 million roster bonus (2002); $4.3M and $3M (2003); $5.5M and $3M (2004); $6.5M and $3M (2005); $7M and $3M (2006); $11M base salary (2007); $12M base salary (2008); $13M base salary (2009) and $14M base salary (2010). For the most part, the deal basically boils down to $51.5 million over six years as the final years have inflated base salaries the team won't be able to afford. While the team received a cap savings this year, his cap hit in 2002 will be $9.72 million so restructuring down the road is very likely.

Yeah, 2.5 million sure isn't cheap, is it. I wish we paid three times that much to a 32 year old QB with a 78.0 rating last year and a 74.7 rating the year before...

No wonder Wolf got out...

WisChief
04-26-2001, 12:24 PM
How much did Baltimore pay him?

Gaz
04-26-2001, 12:37 PM
Packfan-
Your memory sucks.

They said that the 12th pick was to high and ended up paying it.

Wrong.

Please check your facts, Packfan. We did not trade the #12 for Green. We traded the #12 for Green, Horne and a 5th Rounder that got us Blaylock.

xoxo~
Gaz
Correcting another misstatement.

WisChief
04-26-2001, 12:37 PM
How much did Baltimore pay him?

KCTitus
04-26-2001, 12:45 PM
Since you obviously DONT know, Ken, I'll answer it for you...

The Rams, as of April 16, were 7M under the cap.

Before you make an a$$ out of yourself, remember that they didnt trade Green to KC until April 20, so that 7M figure included Green's contract.

That's #2, behind Cincy in case you were wondering

Packfan
04-26-2001, 12:46 PM
Gaz,

Please answer my questions:

Do you think the Chiefs were pleased when they lost Grbac?

Do you think that this is just the way Dick and Carl planned it?



As far as Horne and the 5th, who cares? Throw ins for the Rams. Horne caught a grand total of four passes last year. Hakim is their guy thats a threat on pr/kr, not Horne.

KCTitus
04-26-2001, 12:48 PM
Ken you backtraking on you 'applause' of KC for getting Horne now that it doesnt suit your argument?

WisChief
04-26-2001, 12:49 PM
Ken, mister know it all - how much did Baltimore pay Elvis Grbac?

Gaz
04-26-2001, 12:52 PM
I answered your questions at 11:57 on this post.

I guess that is why we never get through to you. You don't bother to read the posts.

xoxo~
Gaz
Thinks that explains a lot.

Packfan
04-26-2001, 12:59 PM
Gaz,

I didnt see it. I have had to log back in a few times. Thanks for pointing it out.

Now, you say that both Baltimore and the Chiefs are better off. I agree that Baltimore is because Grbac didnt cost them anything in terms of draft picks.

You also mentioned that Grbac doesnt fit Saunders scheme. If anything worked for the Chiefs, it was their vertical passing game. The Chiefs need so much help at running back and in their secondary. They wanted to sign Grbac because he was already here, had a good year last year, didnt cost them compensation, and had some continuity with the other receivers. His departure was an unexpected disasater. Instead of having your pro bowl QB and drafting a running back, the Chiefs had to give up the 12th pick for an Elvis Grbac clone. Big, big mistake. Its been proven over and over that the only way to build a super bowl team is through the draft. Nobody else in the league was willing to give up their first round pick for Trent Green. Why? Not because they didnt need him. He and others like him are FREE every single year in free agency. Thats why.

Its no wonder that the Chiefs havent won a playoff game in 8 years.

Are some of you guys beginning to understand why?

WisChief
04-26-2001, 01:25 PM
Originally posted by Packfan
WIs Chief,

They would have paid Elvis 20 Million??? That what he wanted? Nobody get that kind of signing bonus.

C'mon already. Say something smart!

Please show me where he wanted 20 mil signing bonus. I'm not saying he didn't - just can't find it.

Baltimore paid him $30 million

http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/football/nfl/news/2001/03/02/afc_movement/index.html#ravens

Now, would you please same something smart?

Packfan
04-26-2001, 01:29 PM
The star reorted it the day after he was cut

The Bad Guy
04-26-2001, 01:44 PM
Ken,

Your hypocricy runs wild on this board.

The only way to build a team is through the draft?

Did you guys draft Favre, Ahman Green, Ryan Longwell, Bernardo Harris, Frank Winters, Russell Maryland, Santana Dotson, Bill Schroder, Allen Rossum, or Gilbert Brown?

The answer is no.

Quit making the Packers sound like a team who has been built from the ground up through the draft.

There has been about 4 players on the Packers roster that I would say have been solid players that the Packers have drafted.

Leroy Butler, Antonio Freeman, Dorsey Levens, and Darren Sharper.

Every starter on your current team that has been drafted is medicore at best.

What I don't understand is why you spend so much of your time over here bringing up BS points.

Another garbage point you made is about Tony Horne. Go do some research about him as a kick returner. Hakim was never used as a kick returner for the Rams, only as a punt.

Horne is brought in here to fill a hole in the kickoff return game.

Your return man is Allen Rossum. I suppose you found him in the draft right Packfan? Nope you didn't.

You traded for him with the Eagles. So, if return men are so common in the draft, why didn't the Packers draft one?

Is there a filter option on this bulletin board? If there is, I'd like to find a way to block this guys posts. It's funny that his team has done nothing since 1996, but he has all the answers on how to build a team in the NFL.

alanm
04-26-2001, 01:46 PM
" Kansas City hasn't won a playoff game in 8 years " Ken's generic statement he wields like a club. For no team shall pass his muster without one in the last 8 years! whatever.......

keg in kc
04-26-2001, 01:52 PM
What I wonder is what he's going to say 5 years from now, when Green Bay hasn't won a playoff game in 8 years...

You know, the more I think about it, the more I realize that Ron Wolf really is a genious: he knows exactly when to jump from the sinking ship.

Archie F. Swin
04-26-2001, 02:28 PM
Packfan does wonders for ratings, huh?

next time I post a thread, I'll be sure to call him out (invite him).

ct
04-26-2001, 02:44 PM
'The only way to build a team is through the draft?'
- originally from Packfan

Did you guys draft Favre, Ahman Green, Ryan Longwell, Bernardo Harris, Frank Winters, Russell Maryland, Santana Dotson, Bill Schroder, Allen Rossum, or Gilbert Brown?
- NFLScoopFrank


Let us not forget the minister, or Rison, or Howard, three key members of your pedestal Super Bowl Champs.

One more point, Ken. You keep referring to how the Rams were going to cut Green anyway, that they couldn't afford him. Yet they were WAY under the cap WITH Green's salary included. And tell me why you would bag CP so bad for such pathetic backup QBs, yet mention NADA of the Rams trading Green and annointing JOE F-ING GERMAINE the backup on the most potent offense in the NFL?!?

You also keep referring to those two 1st round picks, and how they have to pay these guys too. ALL rookie salaries come out a specific pool of $$, called the Rookie Pool, ever heard of it? This number is adjusted based upon each teams draft positions and such. Just last year the Jets had 4 1st rounders, and had the largest slice of the rookie pool. Oh, and BTW, this is already accounted for.

So, one last question before I'm outa here today: What are your Packers gonna do now that your savior has gone? Now you have no "super bowl coach thing", nor do you have a "super bowl GM thing" either!! You guys are screwed!!

WisChief
04-26-2001, 02:48 PM
NFL Scoop - you'll never hear a peep outa hiim on this - he'll only respond when his "Chiefs Suck" rant applies...

Packfan
04-26-2001, 03:41 PM
NFL Scoop & Coryt,

The Packers havent won a super bowl with Allen Rossom, Bill Shroeder, Russell Maryland or Ahman Green.
They won with Adam Timmerman, Ross Verba, Aaron Taylor, Robert Brooks, Edgar Bennett, Dorsey Levens, LeRoy Butler, Antonio Freeman, Mark Chumura, Brian Williams, Tyrone Williams, Chris Jacke, William Henderson, All Starters, all draft picks.

Get your facts straight before taking shots at me.

Otherwise you begin to look like Titus and you dont want that!

Your own team has proven how NOT to build a team. Peterson has relied on free agency and its resulted in three playoff wins in 12 years. Totally pathetic.

One would think that he (Carl) and you (Chief fans) would finally understand that Carls way of doing this does not work.

Zero playoff wins in 8 years SHOULD be the ultimate clue.

keg in kc
04-26-2001, 04:01 PM
Funny how he conveniently left Favre, Ryan Longwell, Bernardo Harris, Frank Winters, Santana Dotson and Gilbert Brown out of his "argument".

All starters, all draft picks my ***.

Typical peckerfan. Use only the "facts" that fit the argument and forget everything else, come hell or high water.

Two weeks from now he'll probably be telling us how great a job the peckers did building a "dynasty" through free agency and that drafted players are overrated because they don't pan out...

Packfan
04-26-2001, 04:05 PM
Kyle,

The dip sh t that orginally made the comment talked about guys acquired last year and made it sound like they were part of the super bowl teams.

"all draft picks my ***"

Which ones werent drafted??

The Packers acquired Favre with a 25th pick in the first round. Favre was 22 years old at the time. Thats a lot different than trading the 12th pick for a journey man 30 year old QB.

The Bad Guy
04-26-2001, 04:09 PM
Packfan,

Funny how you decide not to include 3 of the biggest reasons you beat the Patriots in the Super Bowl.

Brett Favre, Reggie White and Desmond Howard, three people that WEREN'T drafted by the Packers.

Without the play of these guys, you wouldn't have won.

But you decide to point to players that were drafted by the Pack to try to validate your point that you have to build through the draft when your Super Bowl team were lead by players that you had to acquire via trade or free agency.

Finding loopholes in your own argument is a pretty lame way to defend it.

Gaz
04-26-2001, 04:16 PM
Packfan-

the Chiefs had to give up the 12th pick for an Elvis Grbac clone

Another in a long string of false statements.

We did not give up the #12 pick for Green. We gave up the #12 pick for Green, Horne and Blaylock. I have corrected you several times on this, yet you continue to post untrue statements.

Green is not a Grbac clone. Green is a personable young man who wants to play for the Chiefs. His skills are different from Grbac’s. Whereas Grbac is a good fit for a smashmouth, play action team, Green is a good fit for a quick hitting, up tempo team. Since we are going to mount a quick hitting, up tempo Offense, Green is clearly the better QB for this team at this time.

I do not know why you continue to post false statements when we have shown you that you are in error.

xoxo~
Gaz
Tidying up after Packfan.

keg in kc
04-26-2001, 04:17 PM
The Packers acquired Favre with a 25th pick in the first round.

Funny, last I checked, the Falcons drafted Favre in the second round of the 1991 draft, not the Packers a year later. We were discussing "drafting" players, not "acquiring players".

Nice try at spin control there, but changing the paramaters of the argument doesn't work.

So, the best player on the peckers, the single player most valuable to the team and most responsible for its success in the '90s was drafted by the Falcons.

Pop! That's the sound of your argument going completely flat.

Packfan
04-26-2001, 04:18 PM
NFL,

True. But lets look at each of these guys individually.

Reggie White: Not your typical, run of the mill, KC Chief free agent. White won a court ruling that allowed him to leave Philly without compensation. Without that ruling, he would have been franchised by the eagles.

Brett Favre: Wolf traded the 25th pick in the 1st round for a 22 year old 1 year "veteran". Favre was picked in the 2nd round by the Falcons the year before and threw 4 passes in his rookie season. Being that Favre was so raw, the Packers basically "drafted" and developed him on their own. You cant always draft the guy you want. Trading is another way of getting him. Dont try to compare this to Green. Green is a proven commodity. He hasnt won, has been mostly a backup, and is with his third team in four years. Guys like Green are available each and every year in free agency.

Desmond Howard: I will give you this one. He was a bust his entire career as a wide out, but the Packers found a gem of kick/punt returner on the waiver wire.

Without Howard, they still win it all, IMO. Howard wasnt even a pro bowler that year and if you look at the highlight reel from 1996, Howard had all kinds of running room. Tammy Vanover could have done what Howard did.

The Bad Guy
04-26-2001, 04:26 PM
Packfan,

I wasn't arguing what type of player Reggie White, Desmond Howard or Brett Favre is.

I was arguing your claim that in order to build a championship team, you have to do it through the draft.

If you agree with me that the players that helped you win the Super Bowl weren't Packers draftees, then we have nothing to argue about anymore.

I proved my point.

I think Desmond Howard had a lot to do with your success in that Super Bowl. He didn't win the MVP for nothing.

Lots or running room or not, he took the ball to the house.

Cormac
04-26-2001, 04:31 PM
Adam Timmerman, Ross Verba, Aaron Taylor, Robert Brooks, Edgar Bennett, Dorsey Levens, LeRoy Butler, Antonio Freeman, Mark Chumura, Brian Williams, Tyrone Williams, Chris Jacke, William Henderson, All Starters, all draft picks.

13 starters from the draft - with FA fill-ins to make up the remainder of the team.

Going into this season, the Chiefs should have at least:
Tait, Shields, Riley, SlyMo, Gonzo, Hicks, Browning, Edwards, Maz, Woods, Wesley, and a CB (Warfield, Bartee or Dennis) all starting, all draft picks.

Assuming Grunny has retired.

Minimum 12 starters from the draft/rookie FAs - with FA fill-ins to make up the remainder of the team.

Seems like the Chiefs have been built through the draft about as well as the GB SB winning team :p

Otter
04-26-2001, 04:33 PM
Gaz and Keg,

First let me say that you two are probably the best debater on the board. But in this instance you are beating a dead horse. (I love that saying)

No matter what logic you throw at him he’s going to put it through the PackMan compiler and spin it for his own use. It doesn’t matter if it makes sense or not, he’s one of those people that can convince himself he is right no matter how depraved his statements are, thus making debating frivolous.

I do applaud your efforts and vigor although, I would have given up long ago.

Luzap
04-26-2001, 04:35 PM
Ken,

With your incredible knowledge and insight into the game, do you think you could now (after having about a year to think about it) answer a simple football question regarding schemes?

"What is an H Back and where does he line up?"

Luz
patiently awaiting the oracle...

Gaz
04-26-2001, 04:53 PM
Otter-

I have no illusions about changing Packfan’s opinion. Each of us has his own opinion and I enjoy hearing everyone’s perspectives. Input from my BB companions has challenged and even overthrown some of my own cherished opinions.

My purpose is to point out and correct factual errors. If Packfan chooses to ignore those corrections, that is his right. But the rest of us need to know when a statement is blatantly untrue.

A poster either does not know he has made a factual error [in which case the only polite thing to do is inform him so that he will not commit the same faux pas again] or he is well aware that his statement is false and is falsifying facts to prop up his position [in which case the other members of the BB should be made aware of the situation, so that they can consider the source].

I hope that the posters on the BB will extend that same courtesy to me, should I ever actually commit a factual error…

xoxo~
Gaz
Asking to be dogpiled at the first error.

DanT
04-26-2001, 05:06 PM
Speaking of courtesy, I think it's a good practice to provide a source when correcting the factual inaccuracies of another poster. That's one practice I would love to see become standard on Internet bulletin boards because it tends to elevate the civility and the informativeness of discussions.

keg in kc
04-26-2001, 05:09 PM
Otter -

Unlike Gaz, I'm simply fantastically bored, and Ken's the lucky target.

Like Gaz, I tend to point out errors in fact, I'm just less...tactful about it today. I tire of seeing this pattern of "maybe that's why KC hasn't won a playoff game in 8 years," especially from a Green Bay fan, a following of the very bastion of lackluster teams. I have been on this great Earth for 27 years, and in 17 of those years, the mighty peckers were not able to break through the great barrier known as the .500 record. Yet Ken somehow thinks he's the high priest of football and his mission in life is to imbue we poor Kansas City savages with his holy pigskin knowledge.

Kind of a shame, since I'm going to be off for a few days now, and my last valuable moments here were spent bantering with a troll...

Otter
04-26-2001, 05:22 PM
Keg and Gaz,

I was looking at the debate from my own otter-centric view. I was getting frustrated just reading his inability to comprehend simple facts.

You guys are two seasoned veterans, next time I’ll just keep out.

Warrior5
04-26-2001, 05:58 PM
is that with Packfan back, I'm staying away from the cans of 30W oil!

JOhn
04-27-2001, 12:58 AM
Originally posted by Luzap
Ken,


"What is an H Back and where does he line up?"

Luz
patiently awaiting the oracle...


ROFLMAO :D

Might just have to start reposting this again for kenny.

KCTitus
04-27-2001, 06:59 AM
Interesting....

NFLScoopFrank argues the same point I did, that Desmond Howard a FA reject pokes holes in the 'build through the draft' theory as I did a few months ago.

I see that prior argument convinced Ken that he was wrong because this time he concedes the point.

Frank, you may have just made the Packfan all idiot team (a team of those posters who made ken look like an idiot).

Mark M
04-27-2001, 07:07 AM
NFLFrank--
You can use the ignore feature on in your member profile to filter out our resident troll. I choose not to just because I need someone to vent on every once in a while.

And you definitely have a spot on the All-Idiot team. I will make a new roster when the season gets closer.

MM
~~Always welcomes a new Pack-buster.

ct
04-27-2001, 11:37 AM
OH MY GOD!! THEY KILLED KENNY!!!

ct
just couldn't resist

WisChief
04-27-2001, 11:39 AM
Cory, he's like a really bad case of jock itch - just when you think that you've used enough spray - you stop - and then BAMMMMM - that $hit is back......

DenverChief
04-27-2001, 02:35 PM
wow...even I knew Farve was drafted by the Falcons... (I have his rookie card!..any buyers?) ...but I forgot who drafted Howard

KCTitus
04-27-2001, 02:50 PM
DenverChief: Howard was drafted #4 overall by the Redskins.